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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-21

---Logopened Fri Jan 21 00:00:35 2011
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01:56<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:44<Bobingabout>morning all
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03:46<@Terkhen>hi Bobingabout
03:46<Bobingabout>hi :3
03:47<Bobingabout>I have questions, not related to OTTD, but to programming... i just didn't know where else to turn, so i was wondering if someone here could help me
03:50<FauxFaux>Not if you don't ask the questions.
03:50<@Terkhen>@get #openttd -3
03:50<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
03:51<Bobingabout>I'm writing a game, by myself, but with my current knowledge, and lack of direction, i started working on it in borland turbo C++ to quickly calculate formula and tune them etc. since starting my program has grown beyond what borland seems capable of compiling.
03:51<Bobingabout>i saw, was typing, not so easy on a netbook
03:51<FauxFaux>DorpsGek: Arrrrgh! Your question is entirely useless. Fill in the blanks: "I tried [X] in [Y]. I got [A] but I was expecting [B]. The simplest way I can think to reproduce this is [C]." Reply on one line. If it doesn't fit, use a pastebin. Do not even think of speaking before fully filling in the question.
03:51*Terkhen has no experience with that compiler
03:51<Bobingabout>doesn't matter, its old and crap
03:51<@Terkhen>I wasn't even aware it was still around
03:51<FauxFaux>It's effectively deprecated, yeah.
03:52<Bobingabout>its not
03:52<Bobingabout>anyway, i want a new compiler
03:52<Bobingabout>i do have MSVC enterprise 2008, but am willing to try others
03:52<@Terkhen>Bobingabout: try the tutorials on how to compile OpenTTD and choose your compiler after that
03:53<FauxFaux>On Windows you basically have to use MSVC, welcome to your one-platform platform. ¬_¬
03:53<@Terkhen>you have mingw too
03:53<Bobingabout>compiling isn't the actual issue, the problem is what to do next
03:53<FauxFaux>There's no serious IDE, though, is there.
03:53<FauxFaux>Eclipse CDT barely works on Windows, etc.
03:53<Bobingabout>i want to move from old DOS stuff to new windows stuff
03:53<@Terkhen>there are a few IDEs that work with mingw; code blocks and qt creator
03:54<@Terkhen>I just use notepad++ myself
03:54<Bobingabout>but the issue is... when i try on MSVC it tries to make me use a form view, like a windows popup dialog window, i do not want this
03:55<FauxFaux>Bobingabout: The project creation window asks you what you want; you want either an empty project or a console project, not a gui one.
03:55<Bobingabout>not console, so i guess empty
03:55<Bobingabout>but then there's still the issue on how do i output to the screen, so... any guides on this?
03:55<FauxFaux>How are you doing it at the moment? :s
03:56<Bobingabout>gotoxy(X,Y); setbackgroundcolor(C); cprintf("text",variables);
03:56<@Terkhen>wow :)
03:56<Bobingabout>of corse, gotoxy and setbackgroundcolor and things like that are classified in the CRT instructions, and are also depreciaed
03:57<Bobingabout>plus i want graphics
03:57<Bobingabout>a step forward
03:57<Bobingabout>i guess the best thing for me is a guide on the simplest way to output graphics on a modern platform
03:58<@Terkhen>for something that creates graphics with simpler coding you could check Qt, although it might not be what you really need
03:58<Bobingabout>how ddoes OTTD do it?
03:59<@Terkhen>check the gfx* functions and the video folder at OpenTTD code
03:59<Bobingabout>i still arn't having any luck getting MSVC to open OTTD properly, but when i look at the code, it makes me go 0.o
03:59<@Terkhen>I might be forgetting something, it is not a part of the code I know well
03:59<Bobingabout>gfx, okay
03:59<@Terkhen>there is a tutorial for MSVC at the wiki
03:59<Bobingabout>i should read that X3
04:00<Bobingabout>multiplatform is something i am open to, but i wouldn't know where to begin
04:00<Bobingabout>not something i can do by myself
04:00<Bobingabout>i'd be happy to make it run on 1 system
04:03<Bobingabout>so how does OTTD do it?
04:04<@Terkhen>if you check stdafx.h you can get an idea
04:04<@Terkhen>and the os folders
04:05<Bobingabout>so stdafx is graphics related?
04:05<@peter1138>if you want pixel output, sdl is a good start
04:05<@Terkhen>no, I mentioned the graphics files earlier
04:05<@peter1138>if you want a toolkit, try qt
04:06<@Terkhen>stdafx is an example of multiplatform code :)
04:06<@peter1138>technically openttd should only need to support sdl, heh...
04:06<@Terkhen>if you want something simple I would also suggest qt, it should also take care of multiplatform up to some point
04:06<Bobingabout>pixel output is fine
04:07<Bobingabout>its sprite based similar to OTTD
04:07<Bobingabout>so what is this SDL?
04:08<@Terkhen>that's easily findable, their web should have a FAQ or something like that
04:09<Bobingabout>so somthing else i have to download
04:11<Bobingabout>okay, thanks for the help
04:11<@Terkhen>you are welcome
04:14<Bobingabout>so, a summery... look at stdafx for multiplatform example, use MSVC in empty mode, look into SDL, and look into the GFX files of OTTD. also look up how to compile OTTD on windows
04:14<Bobingabout>that about it?
04:15<@Terkhen>check Qt too, it might be simpler than doing all of those
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04:16<@peter1138>eh, QT is good for a wimp-style program
04:16<@peter1138>SDL for a pixel-pushing gaming-type-thing
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04:16<@Terkhen>yes, Qt is what I use when I don't want to think much about what I'm doing :)
04:16<Bobingabout>Yeah, thats what i want. graphics drawing on a pixel level
04:16<@Terkhen>then go for SDL, yes
04:17<Bobingabout>as long as i can have multiple layers of grapphics, say, background then chars on top
04:17<@peter1138>you've got to do that yourself
04:18<Bobingabout>i don't mind, as long as its possible
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04:18<@peter1138>anything's possible
04:18<@Terkhen>yay for forgetting to add a file to my repo and then purging it
04:18<Bobingabout>i don't think "microsoft getting things right" is possible
04:19<Bobingabout>so, whats qt do thatis different from sdl?
04:20<@peter1138>qt is a gui toolkit
04:20<Bobingabout>for things like windows windows? yeah, pass X3
04:21<Bobingabout>at this phase, it might me easier though, put up a box, and write text in it
04:21<Bobingabout>but i have to move forward at some point, why not now
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04:27<@planetmaker>now that was weired to some extend... ^^
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05:19<devilsadvocate>can someone please help me out in getting FIRS working? I tried getting in from the in-game content download system, but it seems to be doing something strange with the industries. for instance, i've got two kinds of coal / iron ore mines and no steel mills
05:20<@Terkhen>devilsadvocate: you are probably using two industry sets at the same time
05:20<devilsadvocate>Terkhen: none of my other sets are industry sets
05:20*devilsadvocate tries to see if i can somehow export the list i have enabled
05:21<@Terkhen>take a screenshot and upload it somewhere
05:21<@planetmaker>complete screenshot of the newgrf settings / active newgrfs
05:22<@planetmaker>alternatively: save it as preset, exit the game, copy&paste the preset from your cfg
05:23<@Terkhen>but on some pastebin, not here :)
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05:34<Ammler>saveconfig does save to cfg without exit
05:35<devilsadvocate> <-this is the list of GRFs I have active. all the settings are default (my .openttd directory is brand new)
05:36<Ammler>ReducedPassengerPayment sounds like industry set
05:36<devilsadvocate>I _used_ to play with ECS and japanese railway foo before i reinstalled my machine. I couldnt see all the ECS vectors on bananas, so I figured I may as well move to FIRS
05:37<devilsadvocate>the descript says it just reduces passenger payment
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05:37<devilsadvocate>I'll remove it just in case and try
05:37<Ammler>yes, I wonder how it does that
05:37<George>devilsadvocate: I couldnt see all the ECS vectors on bananas, -> what could not you find on banans?
05:37<devilsadvocate>no. the industry list did not change
05:38<devilsadvocate>George: I only saw the Base and Construction vectors
05:38<Ammler>also you might not need the ECS vehicle set and the ogfx+sets as those should be new industries compatible already
05:38<George>Basec is now Basic II
05:38<George>Conctruction is being moved to ECS Basic II
05:39<devilsadvocate>George: I see ECS Basic Beta 5 (Nov 2009) and ECS Construction beta 5 (Dec 2010)
05:41<devilsadvocate>Ammler: ok. i removed those. now the steel mill is back, but there are still two coal mines (which i can live with, tbh)
05:41<@Terkhen>IIRC AveiMil NewGRF is a industry set too
05:41<George>ECS Basic vector II 1.0 (31Dec2010) 4805 times 4D656F9F CC-BY-NC-ND v3.0
05:42<George>ECS Construction Vector B5 (27 Dec 2010) 7480 times 4D656F96 CC-BY-NC-ND v3.0
05:42<@planetmaker>devilsadvocate, I think the aveimil's gameplay mod does harm
05:42<devilsadvocate>ok. removing that too
05:43<Ammler>does someone know, how that reduced passenger payment grf works?
05:43<@planetmaker>indeed, ogfx+rv / ogfx+trains should provide exactly the same as the ecs&firs original vehicles
05:44<@planetmaker>I've no idea about that newgrf, but probably just re-defines the PASS cargo
05:44<Ammler>you mena the default vehicles?
05:44<@planetmaker>no, the last line answered your question ;-)
05:44<devilsadvocate>George: I'm not sure why, but I dont see Basic II from the In-Game thing.
05:45<Ammler>yes it does :-)
05:46<@planetmaker>he, that newgrf window is so totally 1.0.x ;-)
05:46<George>devilsadvocate: With check on-line content and "basic" as a filter I see both Basic and Basic II
05:46<devilsadvocate>*buntu package
05:47<George>[13:46:50] <devilsadvocate> 1.0.4 -> 1.0.5
05:47<@planetmaker>1.0.5 -> 1.1.0-beta4 ;-)
05:47<George>You do not see other ECS vectors too
05:47<George>planetmaker: 1.0.5 is enough
05:48<George>to run ECS 1.0
05:48<devilsadvocate>and yeah, the problem was the aveimil GRF. the industry set looks sane now.
05:48<V453000>something new with ECS?
05:48<George>V453000: it depends
05:48<George>how new?
05:49<Ammler>devilsadvocate: if you care, you can report that to FIRS, so it could handle that issue
05:49<V453000>dont know I havent played ECS for a year
05:49<@planetmaker>George, what difference do you expect to be between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5 to make that decision?
05:49<@planetmaker>(just wondering)
05:49<George>the 1.0.5 was the last stable on 31 dec 2010
05:49<devilsadvocate>Ammler: will do that. first i'm going to try a few combinations and see if it was just that
05:50<George>if it would be 1.1 then I'd choose 1.1 :)
05:50<@planetmaker>he :-)
05:50<George>planetmaker: something wrong?
05:51<devilsadvocate>ok. the reduced passenger payment wasnt interfering
05:51<@planetmaker>no, I just wondered whether there was another reason. It's perfectly good enough one :-)
05:51<Ammler>well, I would not use "perfectly" :-P
05:52<devilsadvocate>I think one or more of the ogfx+rv / ogfx+trains / ecs&firs original vehicles was causing large scale breakage, though - the missing steel mill etc
05:52<V453000>George: would it be possible to make the primary industry grow slower on production? every time I played with ECS, it was nice that I could disable all the weird working things but the industries still grew just way too quickly in my opinion :( you get extremely high productions in very early ages
05:52<@planetmaker>those are vehicle newgrfs... they should have no impact on any industry
05:55<George>V453000: Suggest the new growth algorithm.
05:56<@planetmaker>George, the only real 'twist' is that setting the min. version to 1.0.5 means also that it runs on nightlies which were created prior even to 1.0.0 ;-)
05:56<@planetmaker>as they have a higher version number as they already target 1.1 ;-)
05:56<@planetmaker>But most people won't play those anyway (anymore)
05:57<@Terkhen>I hope they don't :P
05:57<V453000>George: I am just giving a feedback from a player :)
05:58<V453000>the original industries have the best algorithm imo, only the vehicles would need something there :)
05:58<George>V453000: It is not the first callback like that. Currently I disabled x2 growth if current production is above 50%
05:58<George>May be you can suggest somethung better?
05:59<George>I understand it is a problem, but I do not see elegant solution for that
05:59<George>Players suggestions may help a lot
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05:59<V453000>I dont really know :) was just suggesting the general idea ... will look into that later
06:00<George>default algothirm is too random
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06:01<George>planetmaker: as they have a higher version number as they already target 1.1 -> setting min version to 1.0.4 would do the same, right?
06:03<Ammler>feature wise, 1.0.0 is the same as 1.0.5 in most cases, you might just set a higher if there was a bugfix between
06:03<V453000>George: the randomness is actually great :)
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06:05<George>V453000: I've tested it in the early versions of the ECS Wood vector. While testing I find it is a madness. BTW, smooth economy was invented not on the free place, but because of this randomness
06:06<V453000>I meant smooth of course
06:06<George>when you transport 1024 tons of coal and suddenly get 512 - it is like a hurricane
06:06<George>or even worse
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06:08<George><V453000> I meant smooth of course -> I can suggest to disallow growing above 12,5% in case transportation level is not 60, but 80% ;)
06:08<George>would it be better?
06:09<V453000>that would make some good sense I think
06:09<V453000>so theoretically, as good service would you provide, the industry could slow down if you provided not good enough?
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06:12<George>yes, for high growth you would need not good, but excelent service
06:14<George>do you think that growing to the highest level should happen in 11 years in case of normal service (60-80%) or 11 years is not much enougth for you?
06:15<V453000>way too soon
06:15<V453000>I would make it like 50 or even more years
06:15<George>how many years do you expect?
06:15<George>the game lasts only 100 years
06:15<V453000>11 is like ... 2,5 hours
06:15<V453000>well, if it lasts 100, then it should take at least 50 to get to highest level
06:15<George>but the whole game is 24 hours
06:16<V453000>well, yes, but many people play for example from 1900 till 2100
06:16<George>you do not start transporting from every industry on the first day
06:16<V453000>no, definitely not
06:16<V453000>but at the same time you do not want to have all industries on top production I think
06:17<V453000>and it shouldnt be imo so easy to get the best thing :)
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06:18<V453000>when you image you start in 1930-50, there arent any much new trains until ~1970 in most of the sets
06:18<V453000>if you start growing some industries in the start, by 1970 it will be just so high :(
06:19<V453000>then newer trains might come, but the productions are already too high to cope reasonably
06:19<V453000>my point there is, if you have an industry that requires 1 full line of trains on its own, it results in people building just single lines there and back, without any thinking
06:20<V453000>making industries produce a bit less makes them want to connect some lines together
06:20<V453000>which is good
06:22<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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07:12<Wolf01>moin fjb
07:14<@Terkhen>hi fjb
07:21<__ln__>bon/buon/buenos jour/giorno/días
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08:33<dihedral>SmatZ, "Stay tooned" <- "Stay tuned" ;-)
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08:36<@SmatZ>hahaha true :)
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08:40<Eddi|zuHause>hey, maybe he meant the looney toons
08:41<@SmatZ>yeah, I had that in mind :)
08:41<@SmatZ>but there are two o's in looney, not in tunes :)
08:41<fonsinchen>Can anyone explain line 840 in smallmap_gui.cpp to me?
08:41<fonsinchen>What is the magic 3?
08:41<fonsinchen>I have replicated that in DrawLinks later and it works, but I can't explain why.
08:42<dihedral>the looneybin :-P
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09:01<@SmatZ>hello Belugas
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: have you thought about a toggle button to show own company grid only or all companies' grid? [this might be along the same line as showing other companies' custom company colours, i.e. an advanced setting. or a button in the smallmap]
09:05<@Belugas>mister SmatZ!
09:06<@Belugas>toggle switch. 3PDT. bi-polar led
09:09<fonsinchen>Eddi|zuHause: If done like company colours I'd get serious space problems in the smallmap legend
09:09<fonsinchen>And I don't quite know what the point about showing other companies' link graphs would be.
09:10<fonsinchen>I already had to increase the default size of the smallmap to accomodate the saturation legend.
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: outside of infrastructure sharing it would be mostly informative, but with infrastructure sharing it might really be important to know
09:11<fonsinchen>Then we should implement it when either infrastructure sharing or cargodist is in trunk and the other one is to be merged.
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: the magic 3 seems to be there since r1
09:13<fonsinchen>That doesn't help me answer Rubidiums question, though.
09:14<fonsinchen>I guess it won't be that hard to create a general class for drawing a link graph overlay on any window. I'll refactor things to allow that.
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09:40<fonsinchen>OK, maybe not.
09:40<fonsinchen>stupid legend
09:43<__ln__>has anyone used eComStation?
09:44<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21876 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: typedef SpecializedVehicleBase and GroundVehicleBase to reduce typing
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09:50<dihedral>uh - by the way
09:51<dihedral>would it make sense to introduce a server side setting which defines if a clients move request is processed? :-)
09:52<dihedral>perhaps with different values, defining if a) a client may move at all, b) client may move to spectators c) client can move as he/she wishes
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that the perfect task that a bot is useful for?
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09:56<kamnet>Good morning
09:56<@Terkhen>hi kamnet
09:57<@Terkhen>couldn't a client just disconnect and reconnect to move wherever he wishes?
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10:05<@planetmaker>I don't think such setting is needed, for that reason and anyway ^
10:05<@planetmaker>if a client should not join a company: pw-protect it.
10:06<@planetmaker>If a client should not join the server: pw protect it
10:06<@planetmaker>forbidding a client in a company to move to spectator: unlogical
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10:16<Ammler>is it also possible to get the company pw (at least the hash)?
10:16<Ammler>and setting the company pw hash would allow to make a script for restart with pw
10:18<Ammler>what is setting company_pw for?
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10:21<Ammler>ah we once used that to make the server public for specs but still private company
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10:22<Ammler>but since people move to specs for idling, this isn't useable anymore I fear
10:23<@peter1138>sometimes one wonders what you talking about
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10:30<Ammler>I am happy, it is only one :-)
10:30<Chris_Booth>a happy Ammler is a productive Ammler
10:31<Chris_Booth>thought I would just chip in something unrelated and useless
10:32<Ammler>peter1138: the only usage I see for company_pw is for replacing random server pw with random company pw
10:32<@planetmaker>Ammler, or for making a certain company accessible only to a certain player group, but forcing one company PW
10:33<@planetmaker>like for wwottdgd/x
10:33<Ammler>but as one who moved from company to specs because he does pause, would need to give the pw again, so it become useless
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10:33<Chris_Booth>WWOTTDGD would benift from no passwords, and an auto assign to a company depending of a nick list
10:34<claude>Hi all
10:34<@planetmaker>hi claude
10:34<Chris_Booth>and a new player would join the company with least players
10:34<Ammler>wwottdgd2 has something like that
10:34<Chris_Booth>hi claude
10:34<claude>claude --'
10:34<Ammler>combined with unique id, which is gone in the meantime
10:34<claude>how to change my name?
10:35<Chris_Booth>'/nick yourname'
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10:35<darkomen>ok thc
10:36<darkomen>Can anyone tell me what are the libraries used in the source code of OTTD?
10:36<Chris_Booth>they are listed on the compiling page
10:37<darkomen>ok thx
10:42<darkomen>Wow, many libraries
10:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21877 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp tile_type.h): -Codechange: move definition of HALF_TILE_SIZE to tile_type.h
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10:53<@planetmaker>darkomen, believe me: it's few
10:55<@planetmaker>zlib, libpng, liblzma. then maybe sdl. maybe some music. And I probably forgot stuff ;-)
10:57<@planetmaker>yes. forgot freetype2, fontconfig and icu
10:57<@planetmaker>and possibly lzo2
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10:57<@planetmaker>still it's very few for a project of this size.
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11:05<darkomen>ok thx
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11:09<@Terkhen>oh, you mentioned it :)
11:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21878 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Codechange: move parts of UpdateInclination() to separate functions
11:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21879 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: reset vehicle's GOINGUP/DOWN bits when it crashes
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11:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21880 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when a train after reversing ended at the last bit of a bridge ramp and directed outside the bridge, it could still have track set to TRACK_BIT_WORMHOLE
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11:47<Fixer>hi... i want to make one suggestion - if you can... warn translators on the main page for the coming release to translate remaining words (when no new new text will be added for translation)
11:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21881 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Codechange: ensure that vehicle's GOINGUP/DOWN bits are set correctly and that it has correct z_pos when converting from older savegames
11:49<@planetmaker>Fixer, translators got an e-mail some time ago
11:49<@planetmaker>like December, I think
11:50<Fixer>i don't get emails... let me check
11:50<Fixer>maybe in spam folder
11:51<@planetmaker>16th December
11:51<@Terkhen>I got it the 16th of december
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11:51<Fixer>i don't get it... my box is empty
11:51<@planetmaker>But it is not guaranteed that (currently) no string will change or be added.
11:52<Fixer>can i subscribe>
11:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21882 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Codechange: make use of the fact that vehicle's Z position can change only if it has GVF_GOINGUP_BIT or GVF_GOINGDOWN_BIT set
11:52<@planetmaker>Keeping translations up2date can be done through-out the year.
11:52<@planetmaker>Fixer, well, are you a registered translator? With a valid e-mail address at openttd?
11:52<@planetmaker>then you *should* have gotten it automatically
11:52<Fixer>planetmaker: i can edit now... and i wrote to some guy on openttd to allow me
11:52<@planetmaker>But Rubidium ^ might know exactly how
11:53<@planetmaker>Fixer, when?
11:53<Fixer>wait a sec
11:53<@planetmaker>if after 16 December, you naturally didn't get that e-mail ;-)
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11:54<@planetmaker>yeah, that's the correct way. And when you can translate your language that obviously also worked
11:54<Fixer>and i don't get an email ;(
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11:56<Fixer>btw new rail list feature is cool
11:56<@planetmaker>it even works in 1.0.x ;-)
11:56<Fixer>i mean station list *
11:56<@planetmaker>oh :-) yeah
11:56<Fixer>already tried it... really nice
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11:57*planetmaker also likes the industry chain view
11:57<@planetmaker>and the new NewGRF selection
11:57<@Terkhen>those are really nice
11:57<@planetmaker>and... the NewObjects and... and ... and :-)
11:57<Fixer>but one question is what is the default value for popup help? it opens for too long (i set it to minimun value right now)
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11:58<Fixer>2 is really big delay
11:58<@planetmaker>2 is default afaik
11:58<@Terkhen>it opens for as long as you keep the mouse over the widget
11:58<@planetmaker>you don't want it to show always when you just try to click a button, do you?
11:58<Fixer>no... but it feels slow :)
11:59<Fixer>like wait few seconds
11:59<@planetmaker>then set it to 1 second or right click - though right click does not work in one or two exceptions - IIRC
11:59<@Terkhen>you can always disable it to show them with the right click as before
11:59<@planetmaker>he :-)
12:00<Fixer>thanks... i was thinking that 0 is disabling
12:00<@Terkhen>after recent changes in the strings it should explicitly say what "disabled" does
12:01<@planetmaker>Fixer, fix the translation ;-)
12:01<@planetmaker>what Terkhen says.
12:01<Fixer>i will look at it
12:02<@Terkhen>check both Untranslated Strings and Strings Needing Validation
12:03<Fixer>found it
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12:07<Fixer>190 strings are needing validation
12:07<Fixer>that's huge
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12:07<Fixer>didn't know about that
12:08<maddy_>hi all, I'm trying to add the programmable signals patch manually, just wondering should I set the savegame version to something like 999? the original patch had incremented it by one
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12:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: smatz * r21883 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp roadveh.h train.h): -Codechange: make UpdateZPosition() faster by not calling GetSlopeZ() when not needed
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12:37<dihedral>go smatz, go! :-)
12:38<@SmatZ>and that's all, folks!
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12:48<dihedral>you spoilsport :-P
12:49<maddy_>so can anyone tell me please? is it good idea to set save version to 999 if I add a patch (instead of increment by one, which would conflict when it's officially incremented by one in future)
12:52<@Terkhen>maddy_: your call
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12:52<maddy_>either one will work tho? I'm not at all familiar with this
12:54<maddy_>as in, if I play now with my custom savegame format, then it's changed in the future, will I be able to load my games if I update my source to the newer one
12:54<@planetmaker>it only matters for savegame compatibility. Maintaining savegame compatibility will require work on your part.
12:55<@planetmaker>look at src/saveload/saveload.cpp (IIRC)
12:55<SpComb>but if trunk updates and bumps..
12:55<@planetmaker>that's the part where work is required ;-)
12:55<SpComb>you'll have to bump and hack the saveload stuff because your savegame has a weird version
12:56<@planetmaker>if one wants to do that work, it might be more desirable to bump by a bit and then follow the trunk bumps
12:56<maddy_>yeah, I'm assuming there will be a problem at some point, was just wondering if there was some "clean" way to do it
12:58<+glx>any trunk bump will probably break your saves if not patched correctly
12:59<@planetmaker>yeah. And as that is tedious work, usually not done (I know two PP only which did / do that).
12:59<+glx>and that was very hacky :)
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13:00<maddy_>but if I always load my savegame with my custom client, will it still break when savegame format in trunk is changed (assuming I update from svn my client too)
13:01<SpComb>your custom client will save the savegames with v=999
13:01<maddy_>yes, but considering I don't use the 999, instead use the default, or increment by 1
13:01<SpComb>then the updated trunk with v=151 will check for savegames with v=150, and do compat loading for them
13:01<SpComb>you'd have to bump to v=1000 and s/150/999/
13:02<@planetmaker>maddy_, if you just change the savegame version number, you'll have lost your old savegame.
13:02<+glx>miniIN used +2 and special handling IIRC
13:04<maddy_>so if I set my version to 158, then trunk bumps it to 158, I compile my client with the new version, can I load my save?
13:05<SpComb>it'll have stuff in it that's different from what a trunk 158 save would have
13:06<@planetmaker><maddy_> so if I set my version to 158, then trunk bumps it to 158, I compile my client with the new version, can I load my save? <-- no. Unless you add special code to take care of that
13:06<SpComb>i.e. the 157 stuff, your patch stuff, and none of the 158 stuff
13:14<maddy_>so in essence, it's hard to use patches on the code, while maintaining savegame compability with trunk
13:15<SpComb>it's easy to have your patched build be able to load trunk savegames
13:15<SpComb>that's what you usually get
13:15<@planetmaker>you get that for free if you patch properly actually
13:15<@planetmaker>older trunk saves than the revision which you patch.
13:15<SpComb>but supporting both patched and updated trunk savegames is more involved
13:16<maddy_>I see
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13:16<SpComb>since the savegame versioning is just a purely linear history
13:16<SpComb>doesn't do merges
13:16<SpComb>but it's possible with difficult to understand trickery that miniIN used :)
13:17<@Terkhen>back then I tried to understand it, but I ended up deciding it was not worth the effort
13:17<@Terkhen>I just started and finished all of my games with the same version
13:18<maddy_>I guess one "simple" way would be to store the custom data in a separate file alltogether, and not in the official .save?
13:18<+glx>another option is to use a new chunk
13:19<+glx>but that can cause other problems I think
13:19<dihedral>znc upgrade :-)
13:20<maddy_>Terkhen: yeah I'll probably do that too
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13:20<@Terkhen>it what requires less effort and it is not really an issue if your games are relatively short
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13:22<maddy_>at least compiling openttd was easy, all needed files in handy, so I'll have to at least thank the devs for that
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13:24<SpComb>ideally the saveload mechanism would support some kind of nonlinear versioning
13:24<SpComb>not sure if it would just be as simple as separate, named chunks for trunk's stuff and the patch's stuff, and then separate versions for each
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13:24<SpComb>patch code would handle the patch's chunk and trunk code would ignore it
13:25<maddy_>yeah, I was thinking of something like that, and wondering if such a thing exists
13:26<SpComb>but the patch's version would still have to be newer than the trunk's version
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13:26<SpComb>or something along those lines..
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13:28<dihedral>can the two "OpenTTD 1.1.0-beta4" threads be merged?
13:28<@Yexo>the older one would get the first post, and the older one is the unofficial post
13:30<@Yexo>I've now closed one with a reference to the other
13:30<dihedral>oh - i thought they could be appended in an order you choose
13:31<@Yexo>no, the order depends on the time the posts were made
13:31<dihedral>do you know mysql? :-D
13:31<dihedral>nah - it's fine :-)
13:32<@Yexo>yes, but I don't have access to the forum database ;)
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r21884 /trunk/src/lang/ (bulgarian.txt greek.txt japanese.txt ukrainian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: bulgarian - 19 changes by yxomo
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: greek - 15 changes by Gonik, fumantsu
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: japanese - 201 changes by kokubunzi, nex259
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 100 changes by Fixer
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14:03<maddy_>oh dear... I got my programmable signals patch added, and a clean compile, but the game crashes on startup
14:04<@Terkhen>MSVC should tell you the code line where it crashes
14:04<dihedral>well then something went wrong ^^
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14:08<maddy_>anyone got any tips?
14:09<Xaroth_>[00] openttd 0x004D8F17 TrainController + 1850 (g:\openttd_src\src\train_cmd.cpp:3224)
14:11<maddy_>hmm...I didn't edit that file, but that line has to do with signals
14:11<@peter1138>uh... run it in the debugger?
14:12<maddy_>good tip
14:16<maddy_>found the problem, division by zero:
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14:17<maddy_>I did add a new line to settings_type.h where that is defined, that has to be the prob
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14:19<maddy_>how do I fix it?
14:19<Xaroth_>well, don't divide by zero, obviously
14:19<maddy_>how do I add something to settings_type.h without breaking it?
14:19<Xaroth_>there is no 'on error resume next' in C :)
14:20<maddy_>I assume it's crashing on trying to load the title game
14:21<frosch123>maddy_: likely you did not specify the savegame version, when you added the var
14:22<frosch123>so you loaded something from the title-savegame which was not there, and everything behind got shifted
14:22<maddy_>where do I specify the version for the new variable?
14:22*andythenorth grumbles about so-called Virgin broadband
14:22<frosch123>use the macros with COND
14:23<maddy_>what file?
14:23<frosch123>table/settings... whatever
14:26<maddy_>found it, thank you
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14:29<Ammler>btw. what's the project name of OpenTTD 1.1?
14:30-!-xiong [] has joined #openttd
14:31<Zuu>Yea, is it yet another time, time to rename the project?
14:31<@planetmaker>you want us to assign it a 'codename'?
14:31*Alberth thinks it is "OpenTTD 1.1"
14:31<@planetmaker>like OpenTTD 4-Waldstädter-See?
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14:34<maddy_>got the game to run properly, programmed signals dont work yet tho :) maybe I'll debug tomorrow
14:36<maddy_>thanks all for help
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14:51<Ammler>Alberth: lame :-P
14:54<@Terkhen>I suspect that a thread about that would get a lot of answers
15:00<@Alberth>I prefer to make patches instead
15:01*andythenorth ponders
15:11<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I have been unifying further code between road vehicles and trains; my plan is to unify as much as possible before starting with rv-wagons
15:12<@Terkhen>now the road vehicles already have access to the functions that set the "wagon" subtype, of course they completely ignore it
15:15<andythenorth>I should finish writing the mini-spec I started :o
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15:24<dihedral>yumm... pancakes
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15:49<Luddha>anyone here?
15:49<Luddha> pfse
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15:50<@Yexo>@topic get -2
15:50<@DorpsGek>Yexo: 'Latest' is not a valid version
15:50<@Yexo>@topic get -3
15:50<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Don't ask to ask, just ask
15:50<@Terkhen>hi Luddha
15:50<@planetmaker>someone broke the silence...
15:50<@Yexo>luckz: ^^
15:51<Luddha>Terkhen :)
15:51<Luddha>just downloaded ottd again after some years break
15:51<Luddha>are you playing any fun game or something?
15:53<dihedral>who in here actually plays?
15:57*Alberth plays the 'change source code without crash' game
15:58<@Rubidium>just add some comments to the source code; usually works quite well with not adding new crashes
15:59*Terkhen plays 'change the source code before dropping the performance to abysmal levels'
15:59*andythenorth plays 'writing tickets is nearly the same as writing code'
15:59<andythenorth>but tickets don't fail to compile :P
16:02<dihedral>then we need a new ticket system
16:02<@Terkhen>and a ticket system for the ticket system
16:04-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:05<dihedral>"please create the following ticket in the ticket system"
16:08<andythenorth>write a ticket for that
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17:13<@SmatZ>hello supermop
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17:16<supermop>hi smatz
17:16<supermop>what's up?
17:17<@Rubidium>1 ;)
17:18<@SmatZ>not much :) quite nice evening here
17:18<@Rubidium>and 2 is down
17:19<supermop>thats good
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17:19<supermop>it is chilly but nice here
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17:28<thomas001>hi can you recommend a good combination of ecs vectors?
17:29<LordAro>all of them is generally a good idea
17:30<+glx>or none :)
17:30<George>thomas001: how large is your map?
17:30<@SmatZ>there are some rules in what order they should be loaded... it's described somewhere :)
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17:30<thomas001>George, i like to play 512x256
17:30<andythenorth>try the newest beta versions...
17:30<thomas001>andythenorth, i have ne newest versions available in bananas
17:31<@SmatZ>thomas001: or try FIRS :)
17:31<George>thomas001: Amount of water?
17:31<andythenorth>George released new vectors somewhere recently
17:31<thomas001>George, uhm...standard
17:31<thomas001>most vectors are labeled dec 2010 or jan 2011
17:32<George>Normal means medium?
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17:33<George>amount of town/industries?
17:33<George>terrain type?
17:34<George>SmatZ: I mean in case of mountains, large number of lakes and industries map generator would make a mess of industries
17:34<thomas001>normal towns, hight industry, but i can also change this ;)
17:35<thomas001>i just search for settings fun to play
17:35<@SmatZ>(just to explain... andythenorth is author of FIRS, George is author of ECS)
17:35<@SmatZ>George: sure :) I was just smiling because I was happy how you care about users of your newgrf :)
17:36<George>For this map size (512x256) and high number of industries there would be too much industries
17:36<George>You can change number of indutries on the map, and in this case you would have less but different industries
17:37<thomas001>okay i will try that
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17:37<George>or you can reduce the number of vectors and would get more similar industries on the map
17:37<George>the second is easier to play
17:38<George>If you want an easier game I'd suggest not to use machinery and wood vector
17:39<George>But if you like the game to be difficult - all vectors are your choise
17:39<thomas001>hmm i will keep that in mind, thank you :)
17:39<thomas001>or i will try firs..never heard of that before
17:40*SmatZ hides
17:40<George>I heard there were balancing changings in the recent FIRS
17:41<andythenorth>there have been quite a few :)
17:41<George>andythenorth, correct me if I'm wrong
17:41<andythenorth>there will be some more changes in 0.6 but not many
17:42<thomas001>uhhm there are *a lot* industries in firs
17:42<thomas001>any flow diagram what to deliver where? ;)
17:42<andythenorth>there will in future be an option to have fewer
17:42<@Terkhen>use the industry chain window
17:42<andythenorth>is that in stable releases?
17:45<thomas001>Terkhen, where is it? just searched all menus...sorry
17:45<@SmatZ>thomas001: open industry window, click "display chain"
17:45<@Terkhen>thomas001: it is only present if you are playing with the beta or a nightly
17:45*dihedral has run into some complication with grapes :-(
17:47-!-SmatZ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.5, 1.1.0-beta4 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
17:47<@Rubidium>poor dihedral
17:47<@Rubidium>maybe you should attack the problem from a different angle
17:47<andythenorth>dihedral: uncomplicate it with grapes: drink more wine
17:49<dihedral>Rubidium, yes, another angle is what i try to look for :-)
17:49<dihedral>or rather anything :-P
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17:50<andythenorth>thomas001: there's no diagram, but some info here:
17:50<andythenorth>my server seems a bit slow today though :o
17:50<andythenorth>pages aren't loading for me
17:50<@Rubidium>dihedral: try to explain the problem or rather the thing you're trying to do
17:51<thomas001>okay i'll try to set up a fun new game, thank you all :)
17:51<dihedral>it's the problem of handling chat messages
17:52<dihedral>they origniate somwhere (irc, openttd)
17:52<dihedral>they come from a user (i'll need a generic user object)
17:52<dihedral>in irc (and relevant for a reply) there is a channel involved regarding public chat
17:53<dihedral>irc and openttd also provide different information about a user, trying to turn that into a genetic something is not my strength :-P
17:54<@Rubidium>maybe some URI thing?
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17:56<dihedral>i was thinking of a user object which reflects name, login, user, host / ip
17:56<dihedral>regarding the source of a message i am more stuck
17:56<dihedral>there needs to be a way to generically define how to reply, chat public and private
17:57<@Rubidium>that could get the same thing as the destination
17:57<dihedral>as the information needed is not always the same
17:57<dihedral>irc needs a channel and a string for the public chat, openttd needs just the string
17:58<dihedral>private chat - irc needs a nick, openttd an id - that can be handled with the user object
17:58<@Rubidium>dihedral: see the public OpenTTD chat as a channel
17:59<@Rubidium>dihedral: see private chats as channels
17:59<@Rubidium>see the user id for private chats as a channel, just toString the id
18:01<dihedral>i am considering a MessageProvider, one for OpenTTD one for IRC
18:01<dihedral>the MessageProvider would define the methods both must implement
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18:13<dihedral>i do not know how many approaches i've already had :-P
18:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r21885 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Fix [FS#4422]: NewGRF string codes 0x80 and 0x81 were broken since the typechecking of string parameters
18:16<dihedral>anyway - it's late
18:16<dihedral>i'll head to bed
18:16<dihedral>good night
18:16<@SmatZ>nn dihedral
18:16<dihedral>nn SmatZ
18:16<dihedral>thanks for your input Rubidium
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18:23<Razmir>!whois V453000
18:24<Luddha>is there any way to stop someone elses train?
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18:27<@SmatZ>Luddha: no
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18:30<DJNekkid> * 0 00 10 \b16 01 DFLT_E_80 // action0, for rails, numprops, numrails, ID
18:30<DJNekkid>14 \w80
18:30<DJNekkid>what byte is \w80 here?
18:31<DJNekkid>7 ?
18:31<DJNekkid>(DFLT_E_80 is actually placeheld for \b0)
18:32<@Rubidium>guess it is
18:33<DJNekkid>hmm, apparently is it 6
18:34<@Rubidium>byte or offset?
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18:34<@Rubidium>00 01 02; 00 is the first byte, but at offset 0
18:35<DJNekkid>whatever actuion6's count :P
18:36<@Rubidium>in any case... I hope my bed is warm
18:36<DJNekkid>adding adjustable speeds via action14 to nutracks :)
18:36<DJNekkid>unless you have a woman there (as i assume you prefer thoose), i doubt it :) but GN :)
18:37<DJNekkid>im gonna finish this, and im off as well :)
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19:02<@Terkhen>good night
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19:21<__ln__>AFK|lightekk: no public aways, please
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19:43<DJNekkid>if anyone might care:
19:44<DJNekkid>('finished' nutracks)
19:44<DJNekkid>./</shameless self-add>
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19:48<FauxFaux>NutRacks sounds like a very painful torture device.
19:48<Pulec>good ad
19:48<Pulec>any videos to explain to super stupid?
19:49<Pulec>forget it i dont wanna know :D
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 22 00:00:38 2011