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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-25

---Logopened Tue Jan 25 00:00:40 2011
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02:45<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:09<@planetmaker>moin
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03:22<norbert79>Good morning
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08:04<Wolf01>hello
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09:03<@Belugas>hello
09:16<Wolf01>hello Belugas
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09:52<maddy_>hi guys
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10:28<HalfBit>How exactly is train length and speed calculated when they are in diagonal tracks?
10:28<HalfBit>I'm trying to figure out, but it doesn't seem to follow the Pythagorean theorem
10:30<@Rubidium>take a look at TrainLocoHandler; don't know the stuff by heart, but there's definitely no square (root) involved in the calculations
10:31<@peter1138>badly :)
10:31<@peter1138>in fact the train slows down
10:32<Wolf01>but they are longer
10:32<HalfBit>Yeah... It seems that happens
10:32<HalfBit>they stay in the same "speed", yet, they slow down in reality
10:33<HalfBit>weird
10:34<@peter1138>yeah
10:35<@planetmaker>fix it ;-)
10:35<@peter1138>in fact the graphics (original graphics, anyway) are set up for the wagons to be placed closer together
10:35<@peter1138>wolf is correct, the train gets longer, rather than slowing down
10:36<@peter1138>if the wagons were correctly positioned it wouldn't get longer
10:36<@peter1138>of course it would totally mess up new graphics :p
10:37<HalfBit>That totally explains why my trains were not summing up correctly in my game
10:39<@peter1138>hmm, i guess both are correct
10:39<@peter1138>if it gets longer while moving then the back end must be slowing down :)
10:40<@Rubidium>welcome to the world of time dilation fields ;)
10:41<@peter1138>there's a 3/4 factor in there as well mind you
10:41<@peter1138>hmm :p
10:42<@peter1138>probably should be sqrt(2)/2
10:42<@peter1138>1/sqrt(2) ?
10:42<@peter1138>0.7071 anyway
10:43<HalfBit>This: http://i.imgur.com/1Nfp8.png
10:43<HalfBit>Same speed, they are aligned until one train turns
10:43<@peter1138>yeah, that's the usual way of seeing it :)
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10:44<@peter1138>you should try that with the default graphics
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>1/sqrt(2) and sqrt(2)/2 are the same thing
10:44<HalfBit>Then they keep the same speed, but the train that runs gets behind the train that goes straight
10:44<@peter1138>you'll see that that the original lengths have big spaces, which could've been used tof ix the problem
10:44<@peter1138>but the newgrf went along and removed the spaces
10:44<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yes, but one of them is the correct way of getting there ;)
10:46<@peter1138>i don't remember if opengfx uses original sizes or newgrf sizes
10:46<HalfBit>by default graphics, you mean, the DOS/Windows TTD?
10:47<@peter1138>i mean graphics from ttd
10:47<@peter1138>yeah
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>i have never used opengfx
10:47<HalfBit>No good, I don't have them
10:48<@peter1138>hmm, yeah, opengfx uses a mix
10:48<@peter1138>longer lengths in general
10:48<@peter1138>but on the intro screen the monorail wagons are shorter vertically
10:50<@planetmaker>OpenGFX has fixed graphics for all rail wagons. But the maintainer is a bit short on time currently :-P
10:50<Ammler>HalfBit: this is a unresolveable bug, as the waggons "grow" in the horizontal view, so the waggons in the diagonal view got slower
10:51<@peter1138>planetmaker, fixed in what way?
10:51<@peter1138>made shorter?
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10:51<@peter1138>Ammler, it's fixable, but you'll get glitches with newgrfs
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the problem is newgrfs expanded the wagons to 32px from 28px.
10:51<Ammler>peter1138: fixeable with remaking every waggon graphic
10:52<@planetmaker>peter1138, I have wagon graphics with 28px length for all rail vehicles
10:52<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: the "bug" is not just with newgrfs
10:52<HalfBit>Ammler: not a problem :-)
10:52<@peter1138>Ammler, it is
10:52<@planetmaker>DanMacK did an excellent job on that recently
10:52<@peter1138>well, ish
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: not the "bug", but the "blocker" for the "solution"
10:52<@peter1138>i think dbsetxl would probably work okay ;)
10:52<Ammler>we reported that on FS, the ticket got rejected because remaking every graphic would be too much work
10:52<@planetmaker>With those new sprites OpenGFX wagon lengths will be like the TTD sprites.
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10:53<@peter1138>well would fix it allow the glitches to happen
10:53<@peter1138>revert all the 32px depot code :D
10:53<@planetmaker>:-D
10:53<HalfBit>For context I'm trying to make two trains that leave one station at the same time to join a single line without blocking, making with a curve, and I was wondering why my calculations were going so wrong
10:54<@peter1138>wtf
10:54<HalfBit>It is probably some problem that the people in coop already had
10:54<Ammler>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1063
10:54<@peter1138>well we could fix it and allow the glitches to happen
10:55<Ammler>HalfBit: sometimes we doubled the lines before a direction change
10:55<Ammler>like double bridge
10:55<@peter1138>eh, rubidium's comment is a bit
10:55<@peter1138>wrong
10:55<@peter1138>because the original graphics *were* designed shorter already
10:56<Ammler>peter1138: I guess, the problem might be that it might be impossible to find right length and speed to make it similar in horizontal and diagonal
10:56<@peter1138>Ammler, no, it's simple mathmatics
10:56<Ammler>yes, but maybe it would need "half pixels" :-)
10:57<@peter1138>as i said, 0.7071
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it's fairly simple to round half-pixels, but being 4 pixels off is more of a problem.
10:57<@peter1138>0.7071067811865475244008443621048490392848 being a bit more ... precise ...
10:57<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yes, in such newgrfs, the issue is just more verbose :-)
10:58<V453000>just leave the bug alone and play with it as it is :P
10:58<V453000>there still is a maximum throughput, you just have to count with the curves :)
10:59<@peter1138>you'd probably want to add a sub-"unit" for x & y coordinates
10:59<@peter1138>1/16th of a tile atm, iirc
10:59<@peter1138>maybe 1/256th of that is precise enough :p
10:59<@peter1138>btw
11:00<@peter1138>i probably had a patch for that at some point :P
11:00<HalfBit>heh
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>you have a 16x16 grid on a tile, a vehicle is 8 grid-positions (1 down, 2 left), diagonal grid-positions are 1.4 times wider (4 left), so you need 8/1.4 = 5.6 grid positions, which translates to around 22px
11:01<Ammler>planetmaker: at least that is now a good reason, why the opengfx waggons should have same length as ttd
11:02<V453000>Ammler: they dont? :O
11:02<HalfBit>But... if cars become shorter on diagonals, that would mess with signal placement, right?
11:02<Ammler>they had 32px, but some are already shorter
11:02<Ammler>but the reason was just the depot view yet
11:02<V453000>HalfBit: yes
11:03<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, positions are stored in map coordinates, not pixel coordinates
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes
11:03<HalfBit>Really, a difficult problem...
11:04<@peter1138>i'm not sure where you get 1.4 from in that context
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>1.4 ~ sqrt(2)
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that was obvious ;)
11:04<@peter1138>that's a big error :p
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: if you have to round to whole grid positions, it's probably negligible ;)
11:06<@peter1138>that's why i'm saying add a subposition
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think the vehicle movement code already has some kind of sub-grid-postion
11:06<@peter1138>you can't do it if you don't
11:07<@peter1138>hm
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>i mean acceleration etc.
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>but for display, it's always rounded to full grid position
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11:07<@peter1138>yeah
11:10<@peter1138>progress
11:11<@peter1138>hmm, advanceposition is *always* 3/4 :S
11:11<@peter1138>ahh GetAdvanceDistance
11:12<@peter1138>192 & 256
11:12<@peter1138>change that to 181
11:12<@peter1138>i think
11:12<@peter1138>or maybe
11:13<@peter1138>256 to 271? now i don't know
11:13<@peter1138>yeah
11:14<@peter1138>no
11:14<@peter1138>lol
11:14<@peter1138>yeah!
11:14<@peter1138>fuck it
11:14*peter1138 gives up
11:17<@peter1138>of course, making the whole thing move correctly is another matter
11:17<HalfBit>I can't follow what is happening :-P
11:17<@peter1138>the train following code would need to be modified to getadvnacedistance for each wagon, not just the head
11:18<@peter1138>that's what makes it slow down
11:18<@peter1138>then you'd probably end up with disconnecting trains everywhere :D
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>we should convert to a hex-grid, makes the problems less apparent ;)
11:18<HalfBit>LOL
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, it worked fine for civ ;)
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>and it always worked in Siedler ;)
11:19<@SmatZ>:)
11:19<@peter1138>Civ never had 'improved' acceleration ;)
11:19<@SmatZ>civ had hex grid?
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>civ5 has hex grid
11:19<@SmatZ>ok :)
11:19<@SmatZ>homam had it too, during battles
11:20<@peter1138>pfft, hex grid is just a square grid with a slight offset and some stretching
11:20<Ammler>so what first hex grid or 3dmap?
11:20<HalfBit>hex grid is good to make round things rounder (like attack ranges)
11:20<HalfBit>Dunno if it would be useful for something like ttd
11:21<@SmatZ>peter1138: indeed :) but imagine trains jumping on that hex-grid transformed to square-grid :)
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11:21<ZirconiumX>LOL
11:22<ZirconiumX>hello LordAro
11:22<@SmatZ>he's stalking you
11:22<LordAro>hello ZirconiumX :)
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11:22*ZirconiumX kicks SmatZ where it hurts
11:23<@SmatZ>/kick ZirconiumX does it hurt?
11:23<ZirconiumX>Ow!
11:23<@SmatZ>I really didn't deserve being kicked :((
11:24<LordAro>i lol'd
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: hex-grid has the advantage that you don't need all the sqrt(2) magic
11:25<@peter1138>good luck with that
11:27<@peter1138>reimplementing pretty much... everything ;)
11:27<@SmatZ>well, Eddi|zuHause has a point, but it's probably unrealistic for openttd to change...
11:27<@peter1138>you might as well add smooth sweeping curves if you do that :D
11:31<@peter1138>or allow all freeform movement
11:32<@SmatZ>:)
11:32<@peter1138>then you'll be doing things based on angle
11:32<@peter1138>though you might need to find some fast algorithms that work in fixed point maths to avoid desyncs
11:34<HalfBit>Reimplement everything in OpenGL, allow tracks in all directions, smooth curves, smooth terraforming, realistic grid size/vehicle speed ratios, etc...
11:34<@peter1138>yeah! and call it transport empire!
11:34<HalfBit>Leave it to me, I'll do that (someday) ;-)
11:35<@SmatZ>:)
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11:35<@peter1138>or call it openbve...?
11:36<@peter1138>no landscaping there mind
11:36<@peter1138>simulating bogies eh?
11:37<HalfBit>good, I didn't know about openbve
11:38<HalfBit>I saw a demonstration on youtube the other day, that allowed to do draw bridges freely
11:38<HalfBit>(any direction, curves, and from different heights)
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11:38<HalfBit>If we had at least diagonal bridges and tunnels in OpenTTD oh my, that would be great
11:39<@SmatZ>oh you!
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11:44<HalfBit>This: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOLhnwllpgs
11:45<@SmatZ>I don't think I would want to spend hours building tracks in openttd
11:45<@SmatZ>but yeah, it looks nice
11:45<@peter1138>some people do
11:45<HalfBit>??!
11:46<@peter1138>i play it for making a transport network
11:46<@SmatZ>people have various attitudes when playing openttd, indeed :)
11:46<@peter1138>not for making money :)
11:46<HalfBit>I think that most players spend hours building tracks in openttd
11:46<@SmatZ>I am a megalomaniac, so I like coop games
11:46<@SmatZ>but having to build tracks like in that video, it would take much more time
11:47<@peter1138>heh, and one of the related videos is from rigs of rods
11:47<@SmatZ>:)
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r21908 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt german.txt ukrainian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by dihedral
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 36 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 3 changes by Fixer
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14:00<maddy_>I need help on making a station where all exiting trains can select between 2 tracks
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14:07<DanMacK>Hey all
14:07<Markk>Oi
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14:16*andythenorth ponders
14:16<andythenorth>industry production multiplier in advanced settings?
14:16<andythenorth>I may regret this idea :P
14:17<ABCRic>sounds kewl
14:18<maddy_>so can anyone give me some tips regarding station exit balancing? I'm trying to look at wikis
14:18<@Alberth>industry production multiplier in the newgrf parameters?
14:19<@Alberth>hai Andy :)
14:25<andythenorth>hai
14:25<andythenorth>I can code it in newgrf
14:25<andythenorth>or it could be in trunk
14:26<andythenorth>industry code is (in places) disgusting to work with....
14:26<andythenorth>...but this is probably not a contender for world's hardest patch
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14:26<andythenorth>it might need some thought w.r.t edge cases
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14:41<@Alberth>maddy_: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Main_Page are the professionals with some insane (in a good way) ideas
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14:47<maddy_>Alberth: I looked at that, I just realized how signals work in openttd I can't probably do what I wanted
14:48<@Alberth>you can always ask at the forums if somebody knows
14:49<@Alberth>I never had the need to balance exits much, my games are not that big.
14:50<Ammler>maddy_: basically everything is possible somehow
14:52<Ammler>what you are looking for is quite easy to to do...
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14:59<@Alberth>so what do you want to do what you cannot?
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15:27<@Belugas>mmh... building a hierarchy of objects AFTER the first object was completed is a good exercise to improve mess
15:28<@Belugas>1st object puts all common methods in new base, and new child fools around
15:28<@Belugas>and usually, at the end, it does not look sane at all and becomes a big spaguetti mess
15:33<@Alberth>spaghetti is jummy!
15:34<@Alberth>but some chopping and moving is useful when the spaghetti is in code :)
15:34*Alberth hands a knife and fork (or do you need something with a bigger impact?)
15:35<@Belugas>dynamite :)
15:35<@Belugas>a soldering iron would be good too :)
15:36<@Alberth>a clean plate perhaps? I got two new ones from my xmas presents
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15:38<@Alberth>it really helps, a colleaque of mine is building a piece of software for the second time, and he thinks it is much easier now :)
15:39<andythenorth>lets do ottd again :)
15:40<@Alberth>let's call it P2sim :)
15:42<andythenorth>what would be different?
15:43<@Alberth>everything of course, it will do all that openttd doesn't. I will first need to build a CMS to host all the ideas.
15:44<andythenorth>and a project management system
15:44<andythenorth>and a voting system
15:44<andythenorth>and maybe a new language to author in?
15:45<andythenorth>perhaps we can use an existing language, but build a big meta-framework to feed the compiler with?
15:45<andythenorth>we could just define everything with xml
15:45<andythenorth>and the meta-framework would build classes, enums etc for us from that
15:45<andythenorth>it will take years, but think of the time saved!
15:46<@Alberth>I was thinking, perhaps we should make a 3D website, to really appreciate all the features.
15:46<andythenorth>we could make ottd browser based
15:47<andythenorth>but we might first want to define a new plugin standard
15:47*andythenorth is fooling instead of writing code :P
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15:47*andythenorth should do something useful
15:47<@Alberth>but not too much :)
15:49<andythenorth>Alberth: how is your thinking going on groups?
15:50<@Alberth>very good, I found a someone :)
15:50<andythenorth>is there any thing like a spec?
15:51<@Alberth>and in the mean time, I try to shuffle trunk into a better shape for both groups and your rv-pony
15:51<andythenorth>pony-wagons
15:51*andythenorth wonders what version of OTTD is needed for HEQS
15:51<andythenorth>I have no idea :P
15:52<@Alberth>a spec? what I posted in the suggestion thread comes closest to a spec, I think. I also added some other forum links to your wiki page
15:53<@Alberth>'trunk' is always a good version :)
15:57<@Alberth>do you have something else in mind?
16:00<@Belugas>Alberth, a clean plate means going back 3 years
16:00<@Belugas>and thousands of customers with no more support until the new stuff is done
16:00<@Belugas>i'd say...
16:00<@Belugas>no
16:01<@Belugas>but thanks for the suggestion ;)
16:02<@Alberth>so that's going to be a lot of refactoring
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16:09<andythenorth>hmm
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16:10<DanMacK>hmmm?
16:10<andythenorth>the situation with readme / instructions for newgrfs isn't very satisfactory really
16:10<andythenorth>wrt to bananas
16:10<andythenorth>I'm not sure how to improve it though
16:12<@Alberth>simplest solution would be to add a 'README' button that opens a new window with the readme text of the tar file
16:13<andythenorth>I figured something like that
16:13<@Alberth>s/text/file contents/
16:13<andythenorth>with a scrollbar on the window...
16:14<@Alberth>yep, eg like the message history window ;)
16:14<@Alberth>or the industry directory window
16:14<andythenorth>ascii only
16:14<andythenorth>or unicode friendly?
16:15<@Terkhen>it should be unicode
16:15<@Alberth>if possible, unicode, but no idea how to do that
16:15<@Alberth>it implies the readme file has a known encoding
16:16<@Rubidium>utf8 should be, or rather is, fine
16:16<@Alberth>perhaps some mark at the first line or so?
16:16<andythenorth>enforced 80 char line limit, or wrap?
16:17<@Alberth>or by a unanymous vote assume it is utf8 :)
16:17<@Alberth>chop off anything at the right, enforcing will happen by itself then :)
16:17<@Rubidium>though ASCII is safer
16:18<@Rubidium>as everyone should have an ASCII capable font
16:18<@Rubidium>like using Cyrillic might not give the best results for the readme
16:19<@Alberth>it won't be much worse compared to the current situation either
16:19<andythenorth>the current situation involves writing readmes that aren't read
16:20<@Alberth>lies!
16:20<andythenorth>meanwhile trying like crazy to fit set description, instructions + parameter info into 500 chars for bananas
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16:22<@Rubidium>parameter stuff belongs in action 14 ;)
16:23<@planetmaker>[22:15] <Alberth> it implies the readme file has a known encoding <-- that IMHO can be just made a requirement: if you want the readme readable from ingame, use utf-8 encoding. Done
16:25<+glx>planetmaker: so ASCII is good enough :)
16:26<@planetmaker>from my POV, too, yes. But utf-8 would allow basically most languages
16:26<+glx>ASCII is utf-8
16:26<+glx>a subset
16:26<@planetmaker>oh :-)
16:26<@planetmaker>well. yes
16:26<@planetmaker>good, then I wasn't wrong ;-)
16:27<@Alberth>isn't utf-7 for staying within the 128 characters defined by ASCII?
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16:28<+glx>0x00 - 0x7F range is valid utf-8
16:29<+glx>with only 1 byte
16:30<andythenorth>Alberth: this somewhat has the advantage that you know you're way around the newgrf gui code :)
16:32<@planetmaker>for displaying the readme you don't need knowledge of newgrfs ;-)
16:32<@Alberth>'this'? and s/you're/your/? /me thinks andy has some evil plans
16:32<andythenorth>your /s
16:32<andythenorth>as in 'Alberth'
16:32<@Alberth>but it's ok if we swap problems, fancy introducing consists into the game?
16:33<andythenorth>I think they're an over-rated concept at the moment
16:33<@Alberth>I'd be more than happy to add a window
16:33<andythenorth>all my most-fun games are on islands, with just one or trains per route
16:33<andythenorth>consists are overkill :D
16:33<@Alberth>oh, consists with far less functionality than you think
16:33<andythenorth>he
16:33<andythenorth>well...I am busy updating a PDF readme for HEQS that will never be read :P
16:33<@Alberth>just a list of data structs, one for each first vehicle
16:34<@Alberth>with 'per consist' data in it, like caches and orders
16:34<@Alberth>that's all :p
16:34<andythenorth>hmm
16:35<andythenorth>I should understand what that will do.
16:35<andythenorth>but I don't :|
16:35<@Alberth>it removes those data structures from the vehicles
16:36<andythenorth>makes sense
16:36<andythenorth>so vehicles can then be replaced in the consist
16:36<andythenorth>without having to shuffle data off to some kind of fake vehicles in between?
16:36<@Alberth>eventually, many moons later, that might happen
16:36<andythenorth>how interesting :)
16:38<@Alberth>I don't think it is very useful to think about consist-based replacing (or anything else consist-based) at this time
16:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth: write it as ascii ;-)
16:38<@Alberth>too complex :p
16:38<@Alberth>uisng only ASCII C++ code :)
16:38<andythenorth>planetmaker: ascii pictures are somewhat limited
16:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but pdf display will never be supported ingame ;-)
16:39<@planetmaker>ascii is... likely
16:39*SmatZ uses ANSI C :)
16:39*andythenorth proposes writing a PDF renderer
16:39<andythenorth>or more likely...not
16:41<@planetmaker>andythenorth: pdf is like avi. Both are ugly container formats
16:42<+glx>make it in flash ;)
16:42<@planetmaker>and pdf has more security issues than openttd commits
16:42<@SmatZ>::P
16:42<+glx>the reader, not the format
16:43<andythenorth>planetmaker: eps renderer :P
16:43*DanMacK is heading out, later all :D
16:43<@planetmaker>glx: sure. But... given the complexity of the format...
16:43<andythenorth>or - and this is the current pain for someone I work with - rtf with inlined images
16:43<@planetmaker>laters, DanMacK :-)
16:43<andythenorth>bye DanMacK
16:44<+glx>rtf is not nice either
16:44<@planetmaker>no. But plain ascii is fine enough. I don't find our readme ugly
16:44*andythenorth wants pictues :P
16:44<andythenorth>pictures even :P
16:44<+glx>ascii art
16:44<@planetmaker>:-)
16:44<andythenorth>thumbnails?
16:45<andythenorth>bandwidth :(
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16:45<@planetmaker>no images. Images are the grf ingame
16:45<andythenorth>true
16:45*andythenorth has an evil idea
16:46<andythenorth>the grf already has nearly everything you could want to know about a vehicle?
16:46<andythenorth>and pictures of it :P
16:47<andythenorth>how about a 'preview' that basically just renders the buy menu - but in newgrf window
16:47<@Alberth>andythenorth: a RESt renderer?
16:47<andythenorth>restructured text?
16:47<@Alberth>yes
16:48<andythenorth>urch
16:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: there are no industry buy pics
16:48<andythenorth>I have a problem with formats like that: to me they look like broken html
16:48<andythenorth>Alberth: nearly the same: use first industry layout
16:49<@Alberth>and you cannot explain which other grfs are recommended to be used
16:49<andythenorth>for that the readme is still needed
16:49<andythenorth>I was thinking ahead to 'preview'
16:50<andythenorth>Alberth: basically I have been updating this, which prompted my thoughts:
16:50<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=103700
16:51<@Alberth>nice!
16:52<andythenorth>yeah, but hard to distribute
16:52<andythenorth>not bananas friendly
16:52<andythenorth>pretty much tied to the forums
16:52<@Alberth>any particular reason Zephyris is mentioned with full name (and the others are not?)
16:53<andythenorth>can't remember
16:53<andythenorth>it's being updated though :)
16:53<Mazur>Heavy pixels may fall.
16:54<andythenorth>it's important to be aware of safety issues :P
16:55<@Alberth>good night
16:55<@SmatZ>good night Alberth
16:55<andythenorth>night
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16:59<andythenorth>bye
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16:59<Mazur>Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
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17:00<@SmatZ>our poemist Mazur :)
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17:01<Mazur>Just quoting, SmatZ.
17:01<Mazur>The Big Bang Theory.
17:01<Mazur>Best sitcom ever.
17:01<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: any suggestions/ideas for FS#4440?
17:02<@Rubidium>to me it looks somewhat tricky at best, if not (sadly enough) impossible to solve
17:03<fonsinchen>What is the problem about having duplicate auto-orders for some time?
17:06<fonsinchen>OK, I think I don't quite get it. I'll check the savegame
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17:09<@Rubidium>the order before the service order seems to stay in the list indefinitely
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17:11<fonsinchen>That's a point. We should remove unreached auto orders when skipping a maintenance order.
17:12<@Rubidium>though, when you implement that you'll create a situation where:
17:12<@Rubidium>* autoservice happens, so Rocca before the service order
17:12<@Rubidium>* arrives in Mezza, so Rocca after service order gets removed
17:13<@Rubidium>* goes on and arrives at Arezzo, processes service order and skips it removing the stub order for Rocca
17:13<@Rubidium>s/stub/automatic/
17:13<fonsinchen>Yes, the service order will show up in different places from time to time.
17:13<@Rubidium>leaving you with an order list without Rocca that'd mess up the link graph
17:14<fonsinchen>That's the same as having nondeterministic conditional orders. We can't do a lot about that.
17:15<@Terkhen>good night
17:16<fonsinchen>Does it really mess up the link graph? I mean every time it gets to Arezzo it will know that Rocca is the next station.
17:16<fonsinchen>As in some way it has visited Rocca in the last turn.
17:17<@Rubidium>true, but what if I add a station between Arezzo and Rocca?
17:17<fonsinchen>The same. It will keep a pair of auto-orders where there is one now.
17:19<fonsinchen>(provided that we remove auto-orders on skipping maintenance)
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17:20<@Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/poc.sav <- on autoservice run. When reaching Mezza it will remove some automatic orders to both Roccas, after Arezzo it would/should remove the auto orders before the service order. Leaving you without the automatic orders for both Rocca, which means the last Rocca isn't in the order list when the first Rocca is reached
17:23<@Rubidium>though I don't really see a solution to that problem that's simple and/or elegant
17:24<@Rubidium>you could move automatic orders over the border of service orders, but that'll probably be messy with things
17:24<fonsinchen>We can just say: You created nondeterministic behaviour as we don't know if the stations will be visited before or after the maintenance order.
17:25<fonsinchen>Nondeterministic behaviour leads to cargodist doing strange things.
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17:25<@Rubidium>unless... you increment the current order index when processing the service order
17:25<@Rubidium>then it'll just add automatic orders always after service orders and it's not (that) non-deterministic
17:26<fonsinchen>but confusing
17:26<@Rubidium>but given the complexity of the order system there has to be a catch somewhere
17:26<fonsinchen>orders are processed in a different order then shown then.
17:27<@Rubidium>hmm, for loading stuff orders are used and then you basically "rebuild" the current order
17:29<@Rubidium>I guess that leaves fixing the removal of orders for the service order and a bit of known-bugs.txt about non-determinism and the automatic orders not working "right" in that situation
17:30<fonsinchen>So, either we do the current_order incrementation when processing a maintenance order - then we don't need to remove auto-orders when processing a maintenance order.
17:30<fonsinchen>or we do it the other way round
17:31<fonsinchen>In the first case the order list looks pretty.
17:31<fonsinchen>In the second case we create determinism in that case and it works better.
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17:33<fonsinchen>In any case I won't do it today. Let's decide about that tomorrow.
17:33<@Rubidium>I fear the first case might not work unless we'd be using some magic
17:33<@Rubidium>in the BeginLoading / EndLoading code
17:34<fonsinchen>Of course we have to suppress incrementing the order index at the next order then, yes.
17:34<fonsinchen>Probably messy.
17:34<@Rubidium>to set some magic bits when the vehicle is/was using a depot order
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17:35<@Rubidium>it'll be somewhat messy, but I guess it's (eventually) possible
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17:36*fonsinchen would need to take a closer look at the code to comment on that but is too tired.
17:36<fonsinchen>good night.
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17:39<Wolf01>'night
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18:48<Ammler>I see the next limit, which needs to be broken :-)
18:52<@Rubidium>like?
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18:55<@SmatZ>all limit are here to be broken!
18:56<@SmatZ>limits, too
18:56<Chris_Booth>hi all
18:56<@SmatZ>hello Chris_Booth
18:57<Chris_Booth>hi SmatZ
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19:06<Ammler>Rubidium: the newgrf files
19:07<@SmatZ>number of newgrf files??
19:08<@SmatZ>64 should be enough for anybody!
19:09<@SmatZ>(is there any official writing of that famous Gate's quote?)
19:09<@SmatZ>Gates'
19:10<@SmatZ>but well, number of GRF files can be reduced by combining functionality of several GRFs in one
19:10<@SmatZ>like all-ECS-vectors-in-one
19:10<@Rubidium>Ammler: that's easily done, when the minimum maximum packet size of the internet gets increased
19:11<@SmatZ>Rubidium: well, the data could be split to more packets if needed
19:11<@Rubidium>SmatZ: yeah, and we could use TCP as well
19:11<@SmatZ>Rubidium: I just wanted to say that, but that would be insane ;)
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19:17<Ammler>I just mention it because there are 2 guys complaining about the limit in the beta4 thread
19:17<@Rubidium>no savegame == no bug
19:18<@Rubidium>likewise: not on bugs.openttd.org == them not interested in it, thus why should I?
19:18<Ammler>oh, you think it is a bug
19:18<@SmatZ>Ammler: I was wondering, they said it worked fine in previous version
19:18<Ammler>true, now you mention it
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19:22<Ammler>ever grfmerge tried?
19:23<@Rubidium>so, what of not loading NewGRFs with version > 7 or adding some NewGRF properties broke the NewGRF limit?
19:24<@SmatZ>disabled newgrfs aren't counted against that limit?
19:24<@Rubidium>IIRC they are
19:24<Ammler>or static grfs
19:24<+glx>anyway 64 is a lot :)
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19:25<Ammler>glx: indeed but doable
19:25<+glx>high risk of conflicts
19:28<@SmatZ>[01:17:57] <Ammler> I just mention it because there are 2 guys complaining about the limit in the beta4 thread <== actually, it's Doorslammer twice, replying "I have the same problem" to his own post (!?)
19:29<@SmatZ>maybe his confusion explains something...
19:29<Ammler>oh, lol, how mean
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19:53<HalfBit>the new rail station dialog is very nice
19:53<HalfBit>quite a change for a beta3 -> beta4 version
19:54<@SmatZ>yup
20:00<Ammler>good night :-)
20:02<@SmatZ>good night Ammler
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20:04<Mazur>Sleep well, Ammler .
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 26 00:00:40 2011