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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-27

---Logopened Thu Jan 27 00:00:40 2011
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02:29<@Terkhen>good morning
02:31<@planetmaker>moin
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04:22*SmatZ had his masters' exams today
04:22<@SmatZ>and ... YAY!
04:22<@SmatZ>:-)
04:24<@Rubidium>so now you're officially unemployed as well? ;)
04:24<@SmatZ>hehe :)
04:24<@Rubidium>in any case, congratulations :)
04:24<@SmatZ>I got some interview at 10th February
04:24<@SmatZ>thanks Rubidium :-)
04:25*SmatZ -> lunch
04:26<@peter1138>but it's only 9:26!
04:27<@planetmaker>congratz, SmatZ :-)
04:28<@Rubidium>but... but... it's 18:58
04:33<@Terkhen>congratulations SmatZ :)
04:38*planetmaker wonders what would be a good solution how to integrate a drop-down or list thing in the adv. settings window
04:38<@planetmaker>graphically / GUI speaking, not technically
04:39<@planetmaker>just open a list window like the newgrf selection?
04:40<@SmatZ>thank you :)
04:41<@Rubidium>planetmaker: we already have lists in the advanced settings window
04:41<@SmatZ>now, to some OpenTTD coding :)
04:41<@Terkhen>:)
04:41<@planetmaker>Rubidium, but only very short ones where the arrows work
04:41<@planetmaker>Imagine the language selection there. It'd be a pain
04:42<@planetmaker>It'd technically work, too. But...
04:42<@planetmaker>... it'd be a nightmare from the UI
04:42<@planetmaker>Or currency selection
04:43<@planetmaker>or do I miss a list with really many entries?
04:43<@planetmaker>which is not a number
04:45<@Terkhen>you plan to unify all settings in a single window?
04:45<@Rubidium>opening another window seems like bad GUI design; for NewGRF parameters it's reasonable as there the window handles a set of settings, but for the "normal" settings it seems a bit over the top
04:48<@planetmaker>I tend to agree. Would a drop down there look good enough, though?
04:48<@planetmaker>Terkhen, it makes sense IMHO. The distinction between options, settings and difficulty is arbitrary at best
04:48<@Terkhen>I agree
04:49<@Terkhen>and I think that a dropdown wouldn't look very good since the advanced settings are not aligned with each other
04:49<@planetmaker>well. Instead of the < > arrows possibly
04:50<@planetmaker>only becoming active when clicked... but not sure
04:50<@planetmaker>It feels not right either :-) - that's why I ask
04:51<@planetmaker>or just opening a drop-down list when the current selection is clicked
04:52<@planetmaker>instead of an edit window which now pops up for things like "enter a number"
04:52<@planetmaker>thus allowing a list selection and then be done with it.
04:53<@planetmaker>but it'd be this "another window", but where it comes to selecting one of really many, it needs some kind of list
04:54<@Rubidium>I think you (always) need to show the dropdown. Otherwise it's unclear to users that the line with language magically changes to a dropdown when clicking on the line
04:55<@planetmaker>a "select" button instead of the < > arrows?
04:56<@planetmaker>hm... or additionally a "v" button after the language (or whatever) in order to indicate that it opens a drop-down
04:57<@planetmaker>additionally to the < > buttons in front
04:57<@planetmaker>possibly with a line under the active language so that it gets optically linked...
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05:01<Wolf01>hello
05:02<@planetmaker>hey Wolf01
05:02<@Terkhen>IMO the usual way of displaying dropdowns would be fine, the problem is that they would not be aligned with each other
05:02<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
05:04<@Rubidium>Q: how to handle the more interesting things, such as base set selection?
05:07<@Rubidium>I: what about spreading the settings over two lines?
05:07<@Rubidium>+ In game placement of trees
05:08<@Rubidium> [ only in rain forests ][v]
05:08<@Rubidium>+ Airports expiration
05:08<@Rubidium> [ never ][v]
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05:08<@Rubidium>+ Building on slopes and coasts
05:08<@Rubidium> [ allowed ][v]
05:09<@Rubidium>+ Maximum amount of road vehicles per company
05:09<@planetmaker>Rubidium, I don't like to generally spread the settings over two lines, esp those which don't need it
05:09<@Rubidium> 500 (min: 0, default: 500, max: 5000)
05:09<@planetmaker>Those with drop down... might be an idea in order to make it visually clear on thefirst glance
05:10<@planetmaker>But generally doubling the size of the window would give a way much of the conciseness IMHO
05:13<@Rubidium>yes, it would be less concise, but it would be more unified
05:13<@Rubidium>and you can reduce the length of the strings
05:13<@Rubidium>no need to say "Allow to build on slopes and coasts", just "Build on slopes and coasts"\n[ allowed ][v]
05:14<@Rubidium>the "only" problem/thing that don't work this way are the numbers
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05:17<@Rubidium>another caveat I see is that town names / resolution don't quite abide by the "it's just a list of strings in the language file", so getting it truely unified (graphically and coding wise) is going to be extremely tricky
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05:18<@planetmaker>Yes, I know that town names are a very nasty exception
05:18<@Rubidium>not to mention the disabling of entries in the currency list
05:18<@planetmaker>I constantly have there 'unknown string' displayed currently
05:19<@planetmaker>as I removed the newgrf which I used the last time I selected it ;-)
05:19<@Rubidium>unless you fall back to listing functions that build the string list in table/settings.h
05:20<@Rubidium>though that would more or less require the setting refactoring thing Alberth has been working on
05:20<@planetmaker>I'd like to move the town name selection though rather to either the newgrf selection or the new map selection
05:20<@Rubidium>it makes most sense for the new map selection
05:20<@planetmaker>All other options and difficulties could go somewhere in the settings, though
05:21<@planetmaker>the only other somewhat dubious candidate is the drive side selection. But then... adv. settings is fine enough
05:22<@Rubidium>hmm, and advantage of Alberth's work is that we could introduce "easy", "medium", "hard" defaults for settings
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05:22<@planetmaker>yes. Though I consider these two works (mostly) achievable independently
05:22<@planetmaker>they're related, but don't collide
05:23<@Rubidium>agreed, though both more or less require Alberth's work
05:23<@planetmaker>uhm... that's what I meant: not necessarily. But yes, it'll help
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07:25<Wolf01>gah.. gmail filters zip, exe, bat and various other "harmful" file extensions...
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07:37<@Terkhen>rename to .gmail_is_picky
07:38<Wolf01>I already used 7z :P
07:39<@Terkhen>:)
07:43<Wolf01>it's a useless filter, they only want to not take responsibility for the content of attachments, one could easily host the "virus" in another service and then send the link via gmail
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08:53<Guest1798>is there some mod out there to allow bringing water from a lake to the city ? <;
08:55<@planetmaker>if the lake has a water well (industry), that's feasible.
08:55<Guest1798>lake=ocean
08:55<@planetmaker>Just place the (tropical) waterwell industry near the lake or ocean as a pumping station to mimic it
08:55<@planetmaker>it's even realistic then :-)
08:55<Guest1798>hm
08:56<Guest1798><;
08:56<Guest1798>so water from oasis
08:57<@planetmaker>no. From a pumping station near the shore
08:57<@planetmaker>Just place it appropriately :-)
08:58<Guest1798>well it ooks like its from there ;>
08:58<Guest1798>but imagine how much water could be transported from the ocean
08:59<@planetmaker>as much as the pump throughput allows
08:59<@planetmaker>I see no reason I want to transport salt water, though
08:59<@planetmaker>as such the plant also incorporates a de-salination and the throughput drops even more
08:59<Guest1798>i would submerse the train hoing on underwater track
09:00<Guest1798>so train would pull out
09:00<Guest1798>yeah well irl you can make ROH water from the ocean
09:01<Guest1798>there will be plants doing that is future
09:07<@Belugas>hi
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09:08<Wolf01>hello Belugas
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09:18<@Belugas>mister Wolf01 :) i saw yu went back on patching. Happy times ahaed ;)
09:19<Wolf01>not so much :(
09:19<norbert79>I smell sarcasm ;-) Guess that was meant like that :)
09:19<norbert79>hi Belugas, Wolf01
09:19<@peter1138>hmm, trying to use mm3d
09:19<@peter1138>but its snap to grid fails... it's more like snap to grid approximately
09:20<norbert79>peter1138: What about Blender?
09:20<@peter1138>too complex for me
09:21<norbert79>I see
09:26<@peter1138>i'll try it
09:26<@peter1138>how to snap to grid? :p
09:26<@peter1138>bah, nah
09:26<Guest1798>i would use round function
09:28<Guest1798>and snap lets say at 50%
09:29<Guest1798>between 2 grid values
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10:17<TrueBrain>@calc 1+1
10:17<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: 2
10:17<TrueBrain>sanity check, check
10:18<Wolf01>lol
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10:25<@SmatZ>@сalс 1+1
10:25<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: 3
10:26<@SmatZ>fails for me
10:26<@SmatZ>(sorry bad joke)
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10:55<Maluf>hello @ll
10:56<@Terkhen>hi Maluf
10:58<Maluf>i am new here and would like to know more about coding ottd
10:59<Maluf>just reading in some forums
11:00<Maluf>the idear is to set up or modifi a goal server
11:00<Maluf>do you know to who i need to speak ?
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11:01<Ammler>this channel is fine...
11:02<Maluf>sounds good :)
11:06<Ammler>Maluf: there are already some "hidden closed" goal server hacks, but something public opensource would be very welcome :-)
11:08<Maluf>you mean like the ex server as example ?
11:08<Maluf>i prefer to play on that server
11:09<Maluf>but it is not updated anymore
11:09<Maluf>that is why i am interested to rebuild something like that
11:09<Maluf>there are no opensource goal servers?
11:10<Maluf>just searching in forums for some examples
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>aye... i remember now why i had a modificated firs version...
11:10<@Terkhen>I don't know any recent "goal" server public code
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11:12<Maluf>that means i would need to start from zero :(
11:13<Ammler>maybe that isn't bad at all :-)
11:13<@Terkhen>sadly, yes
11:13<@Terkhen>but then you can make it right :)
11:13<Maluf>hrhr
11:13<Maluf>the problem is that i still have some other work to do :)
11:14<Maluf>i hoped that there is a base i can start with
11:14<Ammler>maybe rather extend the new admin interface and let a external bot do the "goal work"
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>Maluf: the old goal server patches were Big Hacks (tm) anyway, and wouldn't work anymore. preferably you'd implement something utilizing stuff like the new admin (bot) interface
11:15<@Terkhen>that would be great, yes
11:16<Maluf>where can i find more information about the new admin (bot) interface?
11:16<Maluf>could you give me a link?
11:16<Maluf>please
11:17<@Yexo>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/raw-file/tip/docs/admin_network.txt
11:18<fonsinchen>Rubidium: about FS#4440
11:19<fonsinchen>When actually going for a service order, we could move the unreached auto-order behind the service order instead of removing them
11:20<fonsinchen>I mean: when skipping a service order
11:21<fonsinchen>While actually servicing the vehicle and we get to a station which doesn't have an auto order, but there is one for the same station after the service order, we can move that in front of the service order.
11:21<fonsinchen>(instead of creating a new auto order)
11:22<fonsinchen>Like this we don't need additional flags, no duplicate orders are created and cargodist always knows where we're going.
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11:41<LordAro>evenings
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11:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm... what am i doing wrong if the refresh button doesn't pick up my new grf file?
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11:47<LordAro>i _really_ hate my internet connection...
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12:06<Eddi|zuHause>is there an option to un-hide "old" (i.e. lower version) grfs?
12:08<frosch123>yes
12:08<frosch123>show_something
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12:09<maddy_>hi
12:10<Eddi|zuHause> "B" "VRSN" \w4 \d1002
12:10<Eddi|zuHause> "B" "MINV" \w4 \d1469
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't look right
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: thanks. it seems to be "gui.newgrf_show_old_versions"
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>apparently you can't mix FIRS nightly and FIRS release. nightly has version around 1000-ish and release around 1500-ish
12:15<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: looks like VRSN detection is broken there, should be the revision number of the release
12:15<Ammler>which version is that
12:16<Ammler>?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: what i checked out from http://mz.openttdcoop.org/hg/firs
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>r1002
12:17<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: what happens when multiple vehicles are close to eachother and some go for service and some don't?
12:17<Ammler>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/file/52ff099d2543/sprites/nfo/header.pnfo#l5
12:18<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: he, and that had already MINV that high?
12:18<@Rubidium>presume A -> b -> c -> S -> D (A/D manually ordered stations, b/c automatic orders, S the depot to service at
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: MINV seems to be FIRS 0.5.something
12:19<@Rubidium>vehicle 1: skips servicing, so changes it to A -> S -> b -> c -> D
12:19<Ammler>I don't think, r1002 had already a14
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: and VRSN whatever the revision says
12:19<Ammler>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/file/1002/sprites/nfo/header.pnfo#l5
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: maybe the revision is really broken
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: hg log says 1633
12:20<@Rubidium>vehicle 2: doesn't skip servicing, due to breakdown of #1 it arrives at b before #1, order changes to A -> b -> S -> c -> D
12:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: hg parent?
12:21<@Rubidium>what would that order change do to the current order index of #2? I'd say it goes to c, as going back an order is somewhat odd
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i can't interpret that output... it seems weird
12:21<@Rubidium>s/#2/#1/
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: ah. i think i get it
12:22<@Rubidium>so, #1 arrives at b doesn't see it as the current (automatic) order and adds it
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i don't have commited the merge yet
12:22<@Rubidium>giving you A -> b -> S -> b -> c -> D
12:23<@Rubidium>now #1 arrives at c, which isn't directly after S so it adds c: A -> b -> c -> S -> b -> c -> D
12:23<@Rubidium>and at that moment it'll think that b is after c
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: now it says: "B" "VRSN" \w4 \d1634
12:24<Ammler>looks fine, doesn't?
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12:24<@Rubidium>how typical...
12:25<Wolf01>but at least I read you Rubidium :P
12:25<Ammler>he, you can tell fonsinchen, he can have a bouncer account from us ;-)
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>now it doesn't get the M attached anymore... ;)
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12:27<Ammler>IMO, it should compare the repo with origin and then decide to add a M
12:27<Ammler>same with openttd
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that doesn't seem to happen. or i use it the wrong way
12:27<Ammler>yes, it doesn't, it "should" :-)
12:28<Ammler>the "modified" detection is quite useless with hg repos
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12:33<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, and the revision is all wrong anyway, since each merge of mine will add a +1
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>ok... there are some crazy landscapes that you can create with the more heightlevels patch :p
12:39<@Rubidium>sounds like Eddi had enough of his previous game and is starting a new one
12:41<@planetmaker>I thought Eddi is busy preparing a title game ;-)
12:41<@planetmaker>good evening also :-)
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>moreheightlevels must adapt snow line...
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause>what i really dislike is the creation of mountain plateaus, which will then concentrate lots of industries on them, while the rest of the terrain is practically empty
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>what did the industry flattening code get introduced for?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling it's not working at all.
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13:01<@Alberth>hmm, I must have missed a few commits then
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause>... and why is tree creation taking ages?
13:04<@Alberth>use the 'none' tree creation algorithm :)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, just did that ;)
13:05<Guest1798>so bank is like a women?
13:06<Guest1798>requires: diamonds, produces: nothing
13:06<@planetmaker>quite
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what's wrong with the landscape generator... there's always one mountain that has its top cut off, and it will gather a large number of towns and industries on this plateau
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13:07<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: reduce varietey distribution?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: not entirely sure that has any effect at all on moreheightlevels
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's like it thinks i selected "mesas" as landscape type...
13:15<frosch123>anyway, if you want to reduce the effect of flat land on industries, you likely need to replace RandomTile() in PlaceIndustry() with something else
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13:16<frosch123>something which starts at a random tile, but if it fails it should not pick a totally different tile, but check nearby positions
13:16<fonsinchen>Rubidium: In order to solve FS#4440 by moving the auto orders around I'll just have to refactor CmdMoveOrder to create a MoveOrder like DeleteOrder and InsertOrder. Then I'll just have to call that in those two places.
13:17<frosch123>moving auto orders around?
13:18<fonsinchen>The idea is that when we encounter a non-ordered station on the way to an ordered depot, we check if there is an auto-order after the depot order and if so we move that in front of the depot order.
13:18<frosch123>how does that work with shared orders?
13:18<fonsinchen>On the other hand if we have unreached auto orders when actually reaching an ordered depot we move those in front of the depot order.
13:19<fonsinchen>As the vehicles will have already decided if they are going to be serviced when all that happens it will work fine with shared orders
13:20<frosch123>but if the vehicles are not going to service they have to skip the service order somewhere in between
13:20<fonsinchen>The auto orders will always be kept in the same order among each other, only the depot order is in fact moved around and as that is the only manual order it should work.
13:20<frosch123>i .e. cur_order_index would have to jump from the automatic order before the depot to the one after it
13:21<fonsinchen>No, they are skipping it already in the beginning. When they are still at the previous manual order and doing ProcessOrders there.
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13:21<fonsinchen>I'll write a patch for that on saturday.
13:21<frosch123>current_order skips it, but not cur_order_index
13:21<frosch123>?
13:22<fonsinchen>cur_order_index is updated by CmdMoveOrder of shared vehicles, if that's what you're asking for.
13:22<fonsinchen>If some order is moved around all vehicles sharing the order list will stay at the same order.
13:23<frosch123>err. ok what i understood from your plan: if we go from A to D via automatic b and c with service-only depot between b and c
13:23<Zuu>Have you though about trying to solve the issue of injecting new vehicles into a shared group from a depot not at the beginning of the order set?
13:24<frosch123>then vehicles going for service will head from A to the depot, and in the order gui they will display cur_order_index as b and then the depot
13:24<frosch123>then current_order will become D and the order gui switches to c and later to D
13:24<fonsinchen>yes
13:25<frosch123>if the vehicle is not going to service, current_order will become B immediatelly after leaving A
13:25<Zuu>If a new vehicle visits (or not) some stations on the way to enter the usual cycle, that changed the auto orders last time I tried it. It might not be trivial to fix though.
13:25<frosch123>cur_order_index will travers b, then skip the depot and continue with c and d
13:25<fonsinchen>No, current_order will never become B as B is automatic.
13:25<fonsinchen>cur_order_index will
13:26<frosch123>sorry, s/B/D/ :)
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13:26<frosch123>s/d/D/
13:26<fonsinchen>then: yes
13:27<frosch123>so, but doesn't that mean that you somehow know, which order index current_order refers to?
13:27<fonsinchen>Zuu: the auto-orders will be repaired once some vehicle does the regular cycle.
13:27<fonsinchen>frosch123: Why do you think that?
13:27<Zuu>yes, so it might or might not be an issue depending on what other code will rely on the auto orders.
13:28<frosch123>imagine there are multiple depot orders between A and D
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13:29<fonsinchen>They'll all get shuffled around accordingly
13:30<fonsinchen>But multiple depot orders in a row are pointless anyway.
13:30<fonsinchen>The first one will get evaluated, all others will immediately get skipped.
13:30<fonsinchen>So it's just the same as one depot order.
13:32<fonsinchen>The point is that the auto orders are all kept in the same order all the time and each vehicle always keeps its cur_order_index at the same order until it reaches the order's destination.
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13:33<VonWaldo>hello
13:33<fonsinchen>Thus, once the auto orders have stabilized there won't be any duplicate or missing ones.
13:33<frosch123>yeah, the goal is fine, i am just not confessed that it will work :)
13:33<frosch123>"convinced" right? i always confuse those
13:34<fonsinchen>If those last two sentences of mine are true, it will work. I'm pretty confident. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to code it tonight.
13:34<VonWaldo>I've been plaing openTTD for about 2 hours now. But I just made a couple of train stations and put a train depot on it, and bought a train in the depot, and gave it orders.
13:34<VonWaldo>But when I todl it to start, it just stays at 0 mph in the depot.
13:35<VonWaldo>I tried putting the depot in different places and stuff
13:35<fonsinchen>Zuu: Currently auto-orders are used to show you which vehicles are visiting a station.
13:35<fonsinchen>In cargodist auto-orders are used to guess where a vehicle is going next.
13:35<frosch123>VonWaldo: you need signals to run multiple trains on the same track
13:35<VonWaldo>:S
13:35<VonWaldo>that sounds complicated
13:36<fonsinchen>If you're constantly manually sending vehicles into some order group on strange ways you're creating nondeterministic behaviour for that group.
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13:36<fonsinchen>We cannot say for sure which station a vehicle from that group will visit next.
13:36<fonsinchen>Thus cargodist will load the wrong cargo in that case.
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13:37<@Alberth>VonWaldo: http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Platforms
13:38<VonWaldo>I just randomly put a signal down next to the station and the train started going
13:38<@Alberth>:)
13:38<@Alberth>you'll have to do it less randomly if you want a good working network :)
13:38<@Alberth>but experimenting is good
13:39<VonWaldo>Yeah, I'll have to sit down and figure it all out at some point
13:40<Zuu>fonsinchen: At least with the auto orders being visualised, it will possible make players aware of the issue.
13:41<Zuu>VonWaldo: If you're new to it, I suggest focusing on path signals at start.
13:41<Zuu>They are all you need for sane usage.
13:41<VonWaldo>okay
13:41<VonWaldo>:P
13:42<Zuu>The Pre-signals are block signals and work in a quite different way.
13:42<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: have you seen the text I written just before you timed out?
13:43<fonsinchen>uh, no ...
13:43*fonsinchen takes a look at the logs
13:44<@Alberth>VonWaldo: http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals 'See also' at the bottom, items 4 and 5 are beginner tutorials
13:45<fonsinchen>Rubidium: I'd keep the current logic of CmdMoveOrder where each vehicle sticks to the same order it's following at the moment when moving orders around.
13:45<fonsinchen>in terms of cur_order_index
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r21920 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt spanish.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: basque - 25 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 6 changes by fumantsu
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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13:48<@Rubidium>fonsinchen: hmm, I guess that's something we need to play with to see whether it behaves sane or not
13:48<fonsinchen>true
13:49<fonsinchen>For now I have to leave, though. Maybe I'll shop up again later at night, but probably not.
13:49<fonsinchen>See you
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13:54<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 239*50
13:54<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 11950
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13:54<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: is 23900 / 2 so difficult?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes ;)
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 7250/50
13:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 145
13:56<@Alberth>oh, 7250*2/100 of course :)
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't really understand where this number is coming from...
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>terrain gets clamped to this number somewhere, but i thought i took all clamping out...
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14:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm having a feeling i forgot something...
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose there's a way to get the difference between game settings and newgame setings within the game?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>hm... changing starting_year and keeping random seed changes the distribution of towns....
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think i have a real inconsistency here: when you change starting_year ingame, and hit "restart", the new starting year is used, but when you change newgrf config and hit "restart", then the old newgrf config is used
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14:36<LordAro>well fix it then :p
14:39<andythenorth>evensings
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14:40<LordAro>evening andythenorth
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14:49<VonWaldo>So.... path signals make it so that you can only go one direction on a piece of track?
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14:50<VonWaldo>Signals are confusing to me...
14:53<VonWaldo>can trains crash?
14:53<Markk>Zes.
14:53<Markk>Yes*
14:53*andythenorth ponders
14:53<andythenorth>what additional buy menu text to add for FISH ships
14:53<andythenorth>type?
14:53<@Yexo>VonWaldo: trains won't crash until you force one to skip a signal
14:53<andythenorth>propulsion type?
14:54<VonWaldo>I took the signals away
14:54<Markk>Or do like that.
14:54<VonWaldo>because I didn't know how they work... but the train started going at some point
14:54<Markk>Start with normal signals.
14:54<Sacro>I miss the old PBS
14:54<Sacro>then trains crashed frequently
14:55<VonWaldo>normal signals?
14:55<Markk>The PBS were better looking before imo.
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: you mean like "force one train through the signal, and the other one suddenly starts to move because no reservation is ahead anymore"?
14:55<@Yexo>VonWaldo: have you read the wiki page about signals? http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... how can a ship be "lost" when the destination is straight ahead?
14:56*VonWaldo is gonna do his signal homework now
14:56<LordAro>because the original ship pathfinder is so useless
14:58<Sacro>Eddi|zuHause: things like that yes
14:58<LordAro>there have been a couple of commits trying to fix it since 'lost' markers were enabled for it
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: but switching pathfinder doesn't change anything
15:01<LordAro>i dunno then :)
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15:09<Wolf01>http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/TRfyeC6f8vI/AAAAAAABZgU/Tafn8W278RI/s800/2.jpg lol
15:13<LordAro>i lol'd
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15:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: do you have more description of your 'arbitrary groups' concept? I don't seem to understand the advantages
15:39<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=926539#p926539
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the departure boards are seriously useless... someone needs to teach this guy about scaling to font size...
15:40<@Alberth>report a bug in the thread :)
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think i did that already once upon a time...
15:42<andythenorth>Alberth: I should look up one of our long irc chats :P
15:42<andythenorth>I just don't like hierarchical groups where an entity can only be present at one location on the tree
15:43<andythenorth>it's good for a certain kind of tidy mind
15:43<andythenorth>I don't have that kind of mind
15:44<andythenorth>Alberth I'm not sure - but the groups you were proposing don't seem to be a single fixed hierarchy?
15:45<@Alberth>they are not, you have ordering properties that you can add/remove/shuffle.
15:45<andythenorth>you put a screen shot of work in progress somewhere?
15:46<@Alberth>within one sequence of properties, vehicles 'exist' at one place only though.
15:46<andythenorth>but you can switch different properties...
15:46<Eddi|zuHause> int time_width = (departure_types[0] && departure_types[1]) ? (GetStringBoundingBox(STR_DEPARTURES_TIME_DEP)).width : (GetStringBoundingBox(STR_DEPARTURES_TIME)).width; <-- this is the calculation it's supposed to do, but it seems to be wrong
15:46<@Alberth>I have a small example somewhere
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15:47<@Alberth>what do people have with parentheses?
15:47<andythenorth>chips :P
15:47<andythenorth>and mayo
15:47<andythenorth>it's a well known british dish
15:48<ccfreak2k>I use them a lot to make the order of operations more clear/.
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>later it does this:
15:50<Eddi|zuHause> ltr ? DrawString( text_left, text_left + time_width, y + 1, time_str)
15:50<Eddi|zuHause> : DrawString(text_right - time_width, text_right, y + 1, time_str);
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>i guess he was too lazy to use an if()
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>i think i know what's wrong
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>it sets the parameter to MAX_INT, but that is not necessarily the "widest" time
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>i set it to 0 now, it behaves better
15:56<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=927019#p927019
15:57<@Alberth>you need a pretty large monitor for MAX_INT pixels :p
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15:58<andythenorth>Alberth: how many user-defined groups can a vehicle belong to: 0 | 1 or 0 | n ?
16:00<@Alberth>s/can/does/, and n (ie as many as you have user-defined groups). n is going to be something in the order of 2-3 currently.
16:01<@Alberth>but a vehicle is always in a group of every property, even if it is 'unknown' or so
16:01<andythenorth>hmm
16:02<andythenorth>I don't entirely follow :)D
16:02<andythenorth>:D
16:03<@Alberth>a group is not a global thing
16:03<@Alberth>each property has groups (w.r.t. that property).
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: no, i meant it is interpreting MAX_INT as a time (in minutes?, modulo day length?, or something?)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: and when that results in 11:11, it may be a fairly short time, most fonts will not be monospace
16:06<@Alberth>a group of a property contains 0 or more vehicles, such that all vehicles are in exactly one of the groups (of that property)
16:07<andythenorth>so for each property I (as user) can create n groups
16:09<@Alberth>you do for 'user-defined' groups (like the one we have currently). For other properties, such as 'main cargo', or 'orders', or 'vehicle type' you don't have to do anything. Vehicles get groups assigned automagically.
16:09<andythenorth>yeah that makes sense
16:09<andythenorth>I'm only really puzzled about how much the user can define
16:09<andythenorth>the rest is quite clear :)
16:10<@Alberth>for sequences of properties, the first splits all vehicles into its groups. The second one splits each group of the first according to its own groups, etc
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16:11<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: allow finding out the cost of a construction action while paused, if building while paused is disabled
16:11<@Alberth>you can shuffle properties
16:11<@Alberth>and you have a few user-defined group properties
16:12<@Alberth>I think that would be mostly sufficient to get the set of vehicles you want to have at one point in time.
16:13<@Alberth>then you can apply some operation on them, autoreplace, give new orders, go home, whatever
16:13<andythenorth>and if user defines group A and group B, vehicle 1 can't be in both?
16:14<@Alberth>not within one property
16:14<andythenorth>ok
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16:19<andythenorth>quak
16:19<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: sorry, I have never looked at the departure boards code
16:21<frosch123>moin andy
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>bahh... the automatted timetables and separation feature is even more useless...
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you unselect automation, it deletes the whole timetable...
16:22<Hirundo>Is there any good timetable patch available?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>not really, it seems
16:23<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: GetDigitWidth() may be useful :) line 1443 of gfx.cpp
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: hm... maybe, but then it won't be flexible if the time string gets translated
16:24<@Alberth>ok :)
16:24<@Alberth>good night
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>although i'm not sure if that is actually possible
16:25<@Alberth>or useful
16:25<@Alberth>time stamps tend to have a pretty fixed format :)
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16:26<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: judging by the code of the automated timetable patch, you need to press ctrl when deselecting automation to preserve times
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: that's a genous use of a hidden feature...
16:27<Eddi|zuHause></sarcasm>
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>i can't see any use for deleting the timetable in _any_ situation
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16:49<andythenorth>does FISH need to provide translations?
16:49<andythenorth>seems like overkill...
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16:59<andythenorth>bah
16:59<andythenorth>what would stop cb23 working? :P
17:00<andythenorth>for boats
17:01<andythenorth>is cb23 implemented for ships?
17:02<frosch123>yes
17:02<frosch123>but it has a mask bit iirc
17:02<andythenorth>I don't see one
17:02<andythenorth>spec says it's enabled if handled
17:03<frosch123>yeah, there is none, it should just work :)
17:03<andythenorth>this should handle it: http://pastebin.com/ywd46HZv
17:03<andythenorth>the define works
17:04<andythenorth>hmm
17:07<andythenorth>I'm doing something wrong :P
17:08<VonWaldo>Is there a way to easily upgrade a city's airport? like... if it has a small airport, do I just have to build a bigger airport somewhere else in the city and then change all the airplane's flight schedules? Or should I just leave the old one also
17:09<frosch123>andythenorth: did you also define that in the 0xff purchase list case of action3 ?
17:09<andythenorth>ach no
17:09<andythenorth>also - why would a D0 text defined with feature 00 (train) work as a cargo subtype string for ships (it appears to)
17:10<andythenorth>frosch123: thanks
17:10<frosch123>VonWaldo: there is no easy way, but you could join the airport with some bus stop (same station sign), then remove the old airport and build a new one joining the old station
17:11<frosch123>then you do not need to change the orders, but if your townrating is not good enough to build the new one you are screwed :p
17:11<VonWaldo>how do I know if the rating is good enough or not
17:11<VonWaldo>and what happens if it's not?
17:12<frosch123>if it is not good enough, you won't be able to build the new one, and lnot even rebuild the old one
17:12<VonWaldo>and how do I join it with a bus station
17:12<frosch123>if ylou are in single player, just save before removing the airport :p
17:13<frosch123>either build them directly adjacent, or hold ctrl while building
17:13<VonWaldo>okay, they are touching, yeah no new sign showed up so I guess it worked
17:13<VonWaldo>thanks :)
17:14<VonWaldo>sweet. airport successfully upgraded!
17:14<frosch123>\o/
17:15<frosch123>if you are fast enough, you do not need to build a bus stop btw. the station sign will not disappear immediatelly and new stations can still join it
17:16<andythenorth>`good night
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17:16<VonWaldo>sweet.
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17:18<frosch123>night
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17:22<LordAro>night all
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17:57<Wolf01>'night
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18:04<VonWaldo>what is the benefit of joining truck stations, etc?
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>the more stations you join, the more trucks can unload at the same time
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18:57<SirSquidness>I only realised that a week or two ago
18:57<SirSquidness>It suddenly made road vehciles so much better
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20:47<Eddi|zuHause>anyone crazy enough to do some python magic? i need to "fold" a list by combining 3 consecutive items into a triple, and then create a list of triples
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>like [1,2,3,4,5,6] becomes [(1,2,3),(4,5,6)]
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>(all that as elegant (aka functional) as possible ;))
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20:56<VonWaldo>there's a subsidy to provide passenger service between to cities, but local authorities won't let me build at one of the cities. what do?
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>raise the town rating
20:57<VonWaldo>how?
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Local_authority_rating
20:59<VonWaldo>I shall plant trees.
21:00<VonWaldo>yay it worked.
21:04<VonWaldo>So, planting trees and bribing is the only way to make them happy?
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>i have an intermediate solution for my above problem. if a is my list, then "zip(a[0::3],a[1::3],a[2::3])"
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>bonus points for anyone coming up with a solution that only needs stating "a" once
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21:32<VonWaldo>Is there a way to replace vehicles so that it saves all their orders?
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21:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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21:40<Eddi|zuHause>if you sell a vehicle and immediately buy a new one, the orders will be kept
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>also, there is vehicle list -> manage list -> autoreplace
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22:16<VonWaldo>When does the game end? 2050?
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>the game is endless
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>but in 2050 you will get shown a highscore screen
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>... i have never ever played that far
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>... it would make more sense if end year was 100 years after start year
22:22<VonWaldo>oh sweet it's endless.
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>TTO started in 1930 and ended in 2030. TTD started in 1950 and ended in 2050
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22:40<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly is the argumentation to make a tram travelling 24km/h on straight track slow down to 17km/h in curves?
22:55<Eddi|zuHause>unrelated: in the newgrf debug window of a vehicle, it should be possible to a) view the 80+ variables, and b) browse through all vehicles in the chain
22:55<Eddi|zuHause>(or am i overlooking that somehow?)
23:25<+glx>hmm there's a variable to set in the console IIRC
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 28 00:00:40 2011