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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-28

---Logopened Fri Jan 28 00:00:40 2011
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03:15<@Terkhen>good morning
03:16<@planetmaker>moin
03:16<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: nothing besides that the same rule for curves applies to all road vehicles/trams
03:17<@Terkhen>but from my experience, people that drive *really* slow tend to drive even slower when at a curve
03:22<DJNekkid>lol
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05:14<Wolf01>hello
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05:16<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
05:17<@planetmaker>hullo Wolf01
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05:21<Wolf01>I hate OOo :(
05:22<@Terkhen>which one?
05:23<Wolf01>small business started to use it, now I need to figure out how to write a macro for Calc which merges 2 columns, sort it and removes duplicates
05:23<Wolf01>with MSExcel I could do it in 30 minutes
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05:25<@planetmaker>so you hate it because you're not (yet) used to it ;-)
05:25<@planetmaker>MS strategy works obviously to give it away for cheap to schools and universities ;-)
05:26<Noldo>in all honesty, Calc has some quirks
05:26<@planetmaker>in all honesty: every software has
05:26<Noldo>biggest of which is that F4 doesn't do what I expect it to
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05:27<Wolf01>the problem is: I don't want to reinvent the wheel, OOo is very undocumented and the official tutorials doesn't even work
05:28<@planetmaker>yeah. Noone gets paid to write that ;-)
05:29<Wolf01>oSheets = ThisComponent.getSheets() -> getSheets() not found, it's the very first line of the tutorial, just after the declarations :(
05:31<Wolf01>I don't like lock-ins, but if other softwares need to have a master in nuclear physics and telepathy (to know what devs had in mind) to be able to use them, I suggest to use MS products
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05:38<fonsinchen>Rubidium: Actually you're right. The plan I had yesterday won't work out. We'd need special treatment for the vehicles that are really going to the depot right now, with no more automatic stops in between.
05:38<fonsinchen>And it's not nice to move orders around all the time.
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05:39<fonsinchen>The new plan is to keep all auto orders after the depot orders and fix cur_order_index to reflect that when processing the depot order.
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06:46<Maluf>hi
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07:14<@planetmaker>hi
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07:39<@peter1138>anyone know if log() is expensive?
07:40<@peter1138>the function itself, i mean
07:42<@planetmaker>20€
07:43<@planetmaker>what does the link say which michi gave last time?
07:43<@peter1138>buggered if i still have that
07:44<@planetmaker>logs?
07:44<@peter1138>i don't keep logs
07:44<@planetmaker>but this channel...
07:44<@planetmaker>@logs
07:44<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
07:44<@SmatZ>it takes about 113 ticks on an AMD64 ...
07:45<@SmatZ>y*log2(x)+1
07:45<@peter1138>basically, in an fft process
07:45<@peter1138>someone is doing "if (k < log(buffersize)/log(2))"
07:45<@peter1138>i kinda thought... "if ((1 << k) < buffersize)" would be better
07:46<@SmatZ>hehe :)
07:46<@planetmaker>probably depends on the compiler
07:46<@peter1138>compared to the fft, the 2 logs are nothing, i suppose
07:46<@peter1138>and log(2) may be optimised away, i don't know
07:46<@planetmaker>let's hope it's the fftw algorithm
07:46<@peter1138>log(buffersize) isn't though
07:47<@SmatZ>changing it to "if ((1 << k) < buffersize)" is worth benchmarking :)
07:47<@SmatZ>(apart from it being nicer)
07:48<@peter1138>SmatZ, in fact, the line cropped up because of a bug that turns out to be due to rounding...
07:48<@SmatZ>true :)
07:48<@peter1138>with doubles, log(2048)/log(2) isn't exactly 11
07:48<@peter1138>Interesting.. would you mind explaining how this can be?
07:49<@peter1138>How can 11-11 yield 4.80518e-16?
07:49<@peter1138>is what someone asked
07:49<@peter1138>i have pointed out that log(2048)/log(2) isn't 11 :)
07:49<@SmatZ>it's natural logarithm, according to man page
07:49<@SmatZ>which can't be represented exactly as floating point number
07:50<@peter1138>exactly
07:50<@peter1138>or rather not exactly :)
07:50<@SmatZ>:-)
07:50<@planetmaker>:-)
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07:57<@SmatZ>peter1138: http://www.agner.org/optimize/instruction_tables.pdf the link from michi
07:58<@peter1138>nothing about log
07:59<@peter1138>well, i'll assume it's more expensive than a shift :)
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>that's a pretty safe bet :p
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08:01<@peter1138>not on a p4 ;)
08:12<@SmatZ>:D
08:17<@Terkhen>hmm... I need a savegame with many road vehicles but no NewGRFs at all
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08:18<@Terkhen>many = as near to the limit as possible
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: start an AI?
08:20<@SmatZ>maybe if you start AIs
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08:20<Eddi|zuHause>they spam road vehicles really fast
08:20<@SmatZ>but then you have to kill them without resetting the company
08:20<@SmatZ>it can be done by removing its nut files
08:20<@Terkhen>since I need the savegame for profiling I would need to remove them without removing their company
08:21<@SmatZ>or maybe by starting the game as a server, then connecting and saving it as a client
08:21<@Terkhen>hmmm... I guess that the dummy AI has a negligible effect on performance
08:21<@SmatZ>or start 0.6 game with the old/new AI and allow building only RVs :)
08:22<@Terkhen>oh, good idea, I'll try that :)
08:22<@SmatZ>hmm but openttd will try to start random AI at its place ;(
08:22<@Terkhen>hmm... then there is no difference and the new AIs will build stuff faster
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08:29<@planetmaker>he, quite :-)
08:29<@planetmaker>But then, there are in the NoAI subforum quite some savegames with lots of RV from some AI tests
08:30<@planetmaker>though some will, of course, feature a few trains, too
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09:05<@Belugas>hello
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'll reprise my request from earlier: i need a way in the newgrf debug window to inspect vehicles other than the front vehicle, and i need to see the 80+ variables.
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10:36<@peter1138>oh damn, somebody came up with a possibly better solution which only uses a fixed shift, although it does use an extra variable.
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>logarithm laws allow for endless optimations which no compiler can ever figure out ;)
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10:41<@peter1138>original: for (k = 0, le = 2; k < log(fftFrameSize)/log(2.); k++) {
10:41<@peter1138>my suggestion: for (k = 0, le = 2; (1 << k) < fftFrameSize; k++) {
10:41<@peter1138> int m, k;
10:41<@peter1138>other one: for (k = 0, m = 1; m < x; k++, m <<= 1) {
10:41<@peter1138>(though it's missing le = 2
10:42<@peter1138>)
10:42<@peter1138>x being fftFrameSize here
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, having m=2^k as loop-invariant is a cool idea
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>(as long as you have plenty of registers/fast cache)
10:45<@planetmaker>http://www.fftw.org/ <-- do you know that page and algorithm, peter1138 ?
10:45<@planetmaker>as it seems you try to implement an FFT
10:46<@peter1138>planetmaker, it's someone else's code.
10:47*frosch123 was quite disappointed when a simple fft turned out faster than my ft implementation on a gpu
10:47<@planetmaker>:-)
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10:47<@peter1138>heh
10:47<@planetmaker>I once needed to write a de-convolution algorithm for images... and that algorithm there indeed proved quite speedy.
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10:50<@peter1138>the guy with the better solution is fons adriaensen. he's a bit of a guru in audio theory and algorithms.
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12:47<DJNekkid>to build openttd for linux i apparently need some video devel packagae...
12:47<DJNekkid>(suse)
12:47<DJNekkid>any idea what i should get?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause2>sdl-devel
12:48<DJNekkid>ty :D
12:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i'm sure all the -devel packages you need are documented somewhere
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause2>and ./configure should tell you also
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12:51<DJNekkid>it was that who told me i needed video devel
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13:20<andythenorth>efening
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause>DJNekkid: then you probably didn't read carefully enough on which video drivers it suggested
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause>although i'm not really familiar with what it actually says
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14:04<andythenorth>ships ships ships
14:04<andythenorth>ships with multiple cargos?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>problem is the refit gui is not able to handle individual parts of articulated vehicles
14:06<andythenorth>that's resolvable
14:06<andythenorth>what about pathfinding code, vehicle building code, unloading at stations code etc?
14:06<andythenorth>big or small projects?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>mostly copy-pasting/unifying with road vehicles/trains
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>movement: all articulated parts should be at the same location (0 length)
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle-building: just enable articulated vehicle callback
14:12<frosch123>doing ships via individually refittable articualted parts sounds like breaking everything
14:12<frosch123>good luck with that :p
14:13<frosch123>containers accepting a certain cargoclass or similiar are most likely easier
14:13<andythenorth>involves some new concepts for stations though?
14:13<andythenorth>or maybe not
14:13<andythenorth>depends on the spec...
14:14<andythenorth>so I just refit to a class?
14:14<andythenorth>not a cargo?
14:14<frosch123>something like that
14:15<frosch123>you refit to a refitmask :p
14:15<andythenorth>so say I want a freight ship that also has 20 PAX
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>so you just throw an inhomogenous set of cargo packages into the vehicle?
14:15<frosch123>just replace the single-select refit window with a number of checkboxes :)
14:15<andythenorth>(I happen to think the freight + PAX case is bogus)
14:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, store the cargotype in the cargopacket
14:16<andythenorth>so I can mix grain + coal in the same bulk ship :D
14:16<frosch123>andythenorth: don't you think livestock + water + farm supplies is a good mixture?
14:16<andythenorth>he
14:17<andythenorth>what about diesel, fertiliser and sugar?
14:19<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO
14:20<andythenorth>or how about chicken, fox, grain?
14:21<frosch123>wolf, sheep, cabbage?
14:21<@Alberth>and water and a boat!! should be solvable :p
14:21<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_crossing_puzzle
14:22<andythenorth>this is my preferred version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_and_torch_problem
14:23<andythenorth>it somehow makes me think of bit masks
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>it was a wolf, a goat and a cabbage in the version i learned
14:28<__ln__>that sounds more familiar, yes
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14:30<@Alberth>bridge and torch problem is different
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i haven't seen the bridge and torch problem yet
14:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's somehow a bit like HEQS trams :P
14:38<frosch123>wiki knows them all, there is about a dozen names for the wolf-sheep-cabbage one :)
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15:06<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> it was a wolf, a goat and a cabbage in the version i learned <- the wolf was me
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15:38<Eddi|zuHause>i really need to adjust my playing style to the new build-while-paused behaviour...
15:39<andythenorth>I can't get used to it :)
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>ah i'll just allow all... ;)
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>i need "inverse foundations" and diagonal slopes :(
15:45<Wolf01>I would like to have sloped stations :(
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>sloped stations are actually very unrealistic
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>unless you have a cable car.
15:47<Wolf01>is OTTD a game about realism?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes!!!11!!!einundelfzig
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>but i can't have large curve radius in the mountains if i can't have a slope in the curve...
15:54<Wolf01>I tried to allow diagonal slopes but, ignoring graphical problems, I didn't found a good way to be able to build the slope in 2 pieces and allow only the right train movement
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16:01<Eddi|zuHause>diagonal stations would be neat
16:04-!-Fuco [~dota.keys@fuco.sks3.muni.cz] has joined #openttd
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>... i have a feeling i'll be bankrupt by the time i finish this railway
16:06<Wolf01>take a full loan and purchase an aircraft
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16:13*andythenorth ponders
16:14<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: diagonal station would be fun
16:14<Chris_Booth>you can draw shunting stations with fake diagonal tracks
16:15<Chris_Booth>would they suffer from the same issue as rotating airports though?
16:15<andythenorth>what extra vehicle purchase window info text is useful for ships?
16:16<Chris_Booth>you mean on top of what we allready have?
16:16<andythenorth>yes
16:16<Chris_Booth>recommended use eg short hual frieght
16:17<Chris_Booth>long haul frieght
16:17<Chris_Booth>passenger ferry
16:17<andythenorth>ok - goo, htat's planned
16:17<andythenorth>bah
16:17<andythenorth>ok - good, that's planned
16:17<andythenorth>someone just got murdered on TV - distracting
16:17*andythenorth dislikes murder shows
16:17<Chris_Booth>lol
16:18<Chris_Booth>I think ships should have relative running costs.
16:18<andythenorth>they do
16:18<Chris_Booth>the longer the journey to lower the fuel costs as the ship gets lighter
16:18<andythenorth>relative to 0
16:19<Chris_Booth>so your ship would start out at a 1 and over time it would converge towards 0
16:19<Chris_Booth>making longer trips cost less
16:20<andythenorth>so over enough tiles, the ship becomes free to run?
16:20<Chris_Booth>never free
16:20<Chris_Booth>as it will never reach 0
16:20<Chris_Booth>if it reached 0 then it would be free
16:20<andythenorth>please provide the maths for that :D
16:20<Chris_Booth>but would run out of fuel
16:21<Chris_Booth>lol
16:21<Chris_Booth>andy I am only messing
16:21<andythenorth>I figured
16:21<Chris_Booth>but would be fun to see ships stuck and out o fuel
16:22<andythenorth>it's probably possible in nfo
16:22*andythenorth looks
16:22<Chris_Booth>fuel type would be a nice feature
16:22<Chris_Booth>so wind steam coal etc
16:22<andythenorth>yep - I'm adding that
16:23<andythenorth>I guessed right so far :)
16:23<andythenorth>anything else? I couldn't think of any other info
16:23<andythenorth>I have 'type' and 'propulsion' so far
16:23*andythenorth confers the 80+ variable structure :P
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16:24<andythenorth>:o
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>i need a "this isn't a safe waiting point if train is longer than 8 tiles" signal :(
16:24<andythenorth>Chris_Booth: your fuel proposal is actually possible
16:24<Chris_Booth>things that mean nothing but would be interesting; length country, of origin
16:24<andythenorth>bonkers
16:25<Chris_Booth>lol that would be so funny
16:25<Rubidium>fonsinchen: I've got http://rbijker.net/openttd/fs4440b.diff which seems to work
16:25<fonsinchen>Oh, I was just going to post a suggestion, too
16:25<andythenorth>it's possible to find the vehicle's current xy and destination xy
16:25<Chris_Booth>then people would need to build service depots for ships to refuel or they would have to do it at docks
16:27<Chris_Booth>I find ships are only useful is base costs are added and used to make crossing water with high capacity train lines crippling
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16:28<fonsinchen>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/90/
16:28<fonsinchen>My version
16:28<Chris_Booth>otherwise they are just to slow / low capacity to make any real money from
16:28<fonsinchen>I don't have time to read yours right now as I have to leave in 5 minutes, maybe tomorrow
16:28*andythenorth makes lots of money with ships, no problem at all
16:29<fonsinchen>mine is untested.
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16:30*andythenorth ponders
16:30<andythenorth>simple template, lots of repeated strings and string codes
16:30<andythenorth>or
16:31<andythenorth>complex template, efficient, but much more spaghetti
16:31*Chris_Booth has cold feet and can't find his slippers
16:31<Chris_Booth>mmh spaghetti would be nice righ now
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16:38<Chris_Booth>andythenorth: what ship set are you working on?
16:38<andythenorth>FISH
16:38<Chris_Booth>FISH is nice, FISH + SAILS is nicer
16:38<Chris_Booth>you can play from the 1800's
16:39<andythenorth>that's the joy of multiple newgrfs ;)
16:39<Chris_Booth>I had a game with only sail boats and horse and carts
16:39<Chris_Booth>was the best game ever
16:42<andythenorth>is this a nice vehicle window text, or a bit too much? "Small coaster for trading inland and close to shore"
16:44<Chris_Booth>Maybe "Small coaster Short Haul" would be more on the mark?
16:44<andythenorth>or just "Small coaster"
16:45<Chris_Booth>make some screen shot in game as get people to vote
16:45<andythenorth>¿ Eddi|zuHause: Rubidium you often have useful opinion on texts ^
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>more verbose is sometimes better. it's not like you easily run out of space...
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16:51<Eddi|zuHause>i wonder how a moreheightlevels map would look without the "only one height level per tile" normalisation
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17:15<__ln__>do the protesters want democracy or what?
17:17<__ln__>the president giving a speech atm
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17:38<frosch123>night
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17:39<@Terkhen>good night
17:39<Wolf01>night
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18:16<Wolf01>'night
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20:58<kamnet>OpenMSX needs a logo
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21:24<kamnet>Hi roboboy
21:24<roboboy>hello
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21:50<Pikka>gentlemen
21:52<Pikka>can anyone tell me what the current value of action 7 variable A1 D OpenTTD version is, both in the nightlies and betas and 1.0.5?
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22:10<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: something like \dx10580000 for 1.0.5 and \dx1100XXXX (where XXXX is the current revision) for beta/nightly
22:10<Pikka>something like that, yes Eddi
22:11<Pikka>it doesn't seem to be doing what I want it to do, but I guess I'll keep trying
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22:17<Eddi|zuHause>for a diagnosis we need four pieces of information: what you try to achieve, what you do, what it does, and what you expect it to do
22:19<Pikka>oh
22:20<Pikka>further testing reveals it's working fine, don't mind me :) thankyou.
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>who the hell is this TiagoTiago guy who pops up out of nowhere and writes lengthy essays on old suggestion topics?
22:21<Pikka>he's a
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>the bad thing is the first two lines of each of his posts sound so absurd that i can't possibly imagine anything coming out of reading all this stuff...
22:23<Eddi|zuHause>i need to hold back to not just reply with a "tldr" :p
22:27<Pikka>"new reply notification emails don't always get to my inbox, please let me know if you think it has happened"
22:27<Pikka>a) how would we know and b) why would we care if he didn't get a reply notification?
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>i remember seeing this signature before
22:27<Pikka>hm
22:29<Eddi|zuHause>but i haven't bothered looking up his old posts
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22:33<Pikka>oops
22:34<Pikka>latest nightly crashes on my savegame. :] but I've buggered around with the newgrfs so much it's probably not worth reporting.
22:34<Pikka>Assertion failed at line 222 of c:\openttd\compile\src\ground_vehicle.hpp: this->z_pos == GetSlopeZ(this->x_pos, this->y_pos)
22:36<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a cache-sanity-check fails
22:36<Eddi|zuHause>there's been some messing around with bridges and bridge heads recently, maybe this is related?
22:36<Pikka>hmm
22:37<Pikka>perhaps I should report it then
22:37<Eddi|zuHause>it can't hurt to post the savegame to the bugtracker, though...
22:41<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: two reasons to report anyway: a) asserts should never be reached. if the savegame is screwed up beyond repair, it should be caught with an actual error. b) the red warning message is (imho) actually there to scare the people. crashes should still be avoided
22:41<Pikka>rgr
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---Logclosed Sat Jan 29 00:00:40 2011