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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-29

---Logopened Sat Jan 29 00:00:40 2011
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02:36<z-MaTRiX_>hey
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02:59<andythenorth>morening
03:00<kamnet>Good morning
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04:11<andythenorth>is including vehicle ferries in FISH misleading?
04:11<andythenorth>will players think that RVs can actually drive on them?
04:12<kamnet>Have they sofar?
04:14<andythenorth>dunno
04:14<andythenorth>no reports :)
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04:34<LordAro>moin
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04:37<@Alberth>moin
04:40<andythenorth>hi Alberth
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04:50<@planetmaker>moin
04:53<@Terkhen>good morning
04:53<andythenorth>mornings
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04:55<kamnet>Meh, it's morning anyhow.
04:58<LordAro>i lol'd: http://xkcd.com/416/
05:01<@planetmaker>:-D
05:12<kamnet>*snickers*
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06:04<Wolf01>hello
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06:11<@Alberth>moin
06:11<Maluf>hi
06:11<@planetmaker>ho
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06:47<@Terkhen>http://www.rigsofrods.com/wiki/pages/Transport_Sim_Fraud
06:49-!-KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.11.14.158] has joined #openttd
06:51<__ln__>eh
06:54<__ln__>i read the text yet i don't see anything conclusive that would make it a 'fraud'.
06:54<@Terkhen>shouldn't it credit the original authors?
06:55<__ln__>should
06:55<@Terkhen>that still does not make it a fraud, though
06:56<__ln__>but if the CD indeed contains "an unmodified ... setup" as they say below the last image, and License.txt and Read me.txtis there, ...
06:56<frosch123>the article also says, that it does not violate the license in most cases. it is just making money of fools :)
06:57<frosch123>but they get a colourful box for the cd
06:57<__ln__>it looks a lot like the author did not understand the GPL.
06:57<@Terkhen>buying a game and then learning that you could have gotten it for free after checking the readme included in the CD is not very helpful :P
06:58<__ln__>selling Free software is not a fraud, many companies such as Red Hat and Canonical base their business on it.
06:59<@Alberth>it is imho, if you don't tell your customers before they buy
06:59<@Terkhen>but not telling what you are really selling is dishonest
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07:00<Ammler>maybe we should try to sell a OpenTTD CD with 1.1 release
07:01<__ln__>Alberth: it's an interesting point whether the license requires you to tell people in advance it's free software. as far as i know there is no such requirement.
07:02<fjb>Moin
07:02<@Terkhen>the license allows to change the product name?
07:02<@Terkhen>hi fjb
07:02<@Alberth>__ln__: try it, buy a copy, then sue them :)
07:03<Ammler>Terkhen: i would say, it does, but it is clearly a "hint", it wants to hide the origin
07:04<__ln__>Terkhen: it may even be necessary to change the name because the original could be a registered trademark. (not maybe in this case, but generally)
07:05<@Terkhen>I still think that announcing that the product is GPL in the CD instead of in the box is not right
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07:06<Ammler>he, transport-sim.eu ridirects to ror
07:06<frosch123>that's what is said on that page
07:07<__ln__>Terkhen: i see the moral dilemma, but still it's far from a fraud imho.
07:07<@Terkhen>let's call it a dishonest rip-off :)
07:08<Ammler>frosch123: that is clearly no fraud, the eu registrar did a mistake :-o
07:10<frosch123>?
07:10<frosch123>Ammler: the article said, that ror registered that url after they learned of transport sim
07:11<frosch123>so, ror steals the product name and advertising effort from transport sim :p
07:11<Ammler>so they printed a unregistered domain on the coper?
07:11<Ammler>cover*
07:11*andythenorth decides not to get into ror
07:12<Ammler>oh well, that is just dumb
07:12<frosch123>yeah, quiet weird :)
07:13<@Terkhen>heh, that's dumb, yes
07:15<Ammler>andythenorth: we need a nice OpenTTD cd cover to sell the game :-)
07:15<frosch123>wouldn't some ror screenshots fit?
07:15<Ammler>lol
07:15<@Terkhen>:D
07:16<@Terkhen>probably the "Open" part of the name would give away that you could get it for free :P
07:16<Ammler>maybe the russian openttd3d could work
07:16<Ammler>Terkhen: well, we could make it seriously just to check if people would still buy it
07:18<andythenorth>yeah they'd buy it
07:18<@Terkhen>probably, yes
07:18<andythenorth>the major issue is where the money would go
07:19<@Terkhen>but I wonder if it would be worth the effort to set that up
07:19<andythenorth>I reckon it would see $100s per year
07:19<andythenorth>not $thousands
07:19<andythenorth>less costs
07:19<andythenorth>it's just enough revenue to be awkward :P
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07:20<@Alberth>with isometric 2.5D graphics? nah
07:23<Ammler>andythenorth: depnds on the prize, if you sell if for 20€ you can't forward much to openttd
07:24<andythenorth>but someone still has to do the work :P
07:24<andythenorth>lets do something else :D
07:24-!-KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-6-188.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
07:24<Ammler>well, you need one "burner" per country :-P
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07:25<frosch123>preferable aged < 12
07:27<Ammler>he needs a cd printer
07:27<__ln__>illegally in the country, without a passport
07:28<Ammler>I once bought OpenOffice that way
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>making money off openttd is kind of a risky business
07:44<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: indeed
07:47<__ln__>it could be sold from some poor third-world country which is not a member of EU or anything... say Switzerland
07:48<@Alberth>preferably a country without internet, say Egypt
07:49<@Terkhen>:D
07:49<@Terkhen>how would you advertize it then?
07:49<__ln__>hieroglyphs
07:50<lugo>telefax
07:55<@Terkhen>:)
07:55<@Terkhen>let's hope they get internet (and other things) back soon
07:56<__ln__>yes, now they are limited to single player or local servers.
07:56<@planetmaker>[13:18] <andythenorth> the major issue is where the money would go <-- I could sell them and thus finance the DevZone :-)
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08:13*andythenorth ponders
08:13<andythenorth>what to do
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08:15<@Alberth>play a game
08:17<andythenorth>meh
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08:20<@Terkhen>why not? :)
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>'meh' is pretty much describing my mood today
08:22<@Terkhen>mine too :D
08:22*Terkhen is not doing anything
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>i need a new set of music... the old one gets boring
08:24<__ln__>here, http://www.play.com/Music/CD/4-/155471/Spaced-Out/Product.html
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08:26*frosch123 wrote two lines of code in past 5 hours :p
08:26<@SmatZ>:)
08:26*andythenorth made up some names
08:26<andythenorth>Terkhen: rv-wagons!!!!
08:27<andythenorth>I need something to collaborate on :P
08:27<andythenorth>I am mostly drumming my fingers
08:27<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'm running some profiling test on the code I'm currently unifying
08:27<andythenorth>Terkhen: did you code a newgrf yet to understand the spec?
08:28<@Terkhen>no :P
08:29<andythenorth>do you need help?
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08:31<@Terkhen>once I finish this code I'll try to code a small articulated vehicle and fiddle a bit with the "can be attached" callback
08:31<andythenorth>ok
08:32<devilsadvocate>fwiw, i would buy an openttd cd if there was one.
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08:36<andythenorth>I could add more greeble to FISH :P
08:36<andythenorth>or do something on FIRS
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08:36<andythenorth>anyone playing FIRS?
08:37<thomas001>hi, can you reconnemd a nice AI? or do you like playing without any AI?
08:37*andythenorth finds it hard to prioritise for FIRS without player feedback :D
08:37<@Terkhen>lately I have been too lazy for playing with FIRS :(
08:37<V453000>andythenorth: what exactly do you need?: )
08:38<andythenorth>dunno
08:38<andythenorth>:D
08:38<andythenorth>"input"
08:38<V453000>making chains more equal is number one for nice gameplay imo :)
08:38<andythenorth>the ticket you opened?
08:38<V453000>yes
08:39<andythenorth>ok I'll look at that
08:39<V453000>I dont think it needs to be like ... mathematically presicely balanced, but just "about-ish" :)
08:39<V453000>the coal chains are way too strong :)
08:39<V453000>on the other hand, I would make some sort of thingy that would make farms stronger
08:39<andythenorth>town growth needing food :P
08:39<V453000>be it more profit for farm supplies, or just something similar
08:40<andythenorth>food could be a high value cargo?
08:40<V453000>nobody really cares about towns in FIRS
08:40<V453000>as good as goods would be ok I think :)
08:41<andythenorth>I could reduce amount of coal produced at mines
08:42<andythenorth>ENSP goes from 'scarce' to 'abundant' rather quickly once the chain is setup
08:43<andythenorth>and the wood chain is too weak generally
08:43<@planetmaker>nah... mines are quite nice as they are IMHO
08:43<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1981
08:44<@planetmaker>but maybe don't reduce their output (that's boring), but the price of coal delivery, if that needs balancing
08:44<@planetmaker>only transporting 2t of coal is boring in transport games
08:44<@planetmaker>I want a whole train of it :-)
08:44<@planetmaker>and not wait 1 year for it to load
08:44<andythenorth>coal is very high value in FIRS for some reason
08:45<fonsinchen>Rubidium: I don't really get what it does, yet, but your patch for FS#4440 is considerably smaller than mine.
08:45<andythenorth>whereas iron ore is same as wood
08:45<andythenorth>V453000: I'll reduce payment for coal
08:45<@planetmaker>well. reduce coal profits then ;-)
08:45<V453000>both at least
08:46<V453000>production and payment
08:46<@planetmaker>production, too? Na...
08:46<@planetmaker>I want to transport stuff
08:46<V453000>even if the coal is equal to all other primaries, it still has the best chain
08:46<V453000>135 production where everything else has 80-90 is imo quite bad
08:46<andythenorth>I think coal production is too high. It starts around 135t
08:46<andythenorth>forest is 96t
08:46<@planetmaker>V453000: not with appropriate prices
08:47<andythenorth>I think about 108t is better
08:47<@planetmaker>coal is also needed in many places
08:47<V453000>yes, that is why it is so useful
08:47<@planetmaker>thus it has to be more abundant than, say, ore
08:47<V453000>therefore it should be penalized on profits
08:47<@planetmaker>V453000: yes, but it destroys the balance overall, if you cannot meet demand
08:47<V453000>?
08:47<@planetmaker>profits may be low; but production should not drop
08:48<V453000>I see ... let more coal mines spawn instead?
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08:48<@planetmaker>and have all trains wait eternally to load? Na...
08:48<@planetmaker>coal mines IMHO may be productive. Why not?
08:48<@planetmaker>Just make it cheap bulk cargo
08:48<V453000>then it needs to be cheaper than for example ore or wood :)
08:49<@planetmaker>yes.
08:49<@planetmaker>of course
08:49<andythenorth>I have another answer to this
08:49<andythenorth>currently industries don't randomise on map gen
08:49<andythenorth>(starting cargo production)
08:49<V453000>they will?
08:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: randomization is no answer to this
08:49<@planetmaker>it just dilutes the problem
08:50<V453000>anyway, I have to go for lunch, laters :)
08:50<andythenorth>assume that I'll change the rates
08:50<@planetmaker>once balanced, then randomization will be nice
08:50<fonsinchen>However, it changes saveload code ...
08:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: randomisation will add...interest....to the problem
08:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth: how?
08:51<@planetmaker>it makes finding out the "correct" balance just so much more difficult
08:51<@planetmaker>it's the cream on top. But not good, if the coffee itself is bad
08:51<andythenorth>well yes
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08:52<andythenorth>but it also means there's no predictable 'best' chain
08:52<andythenorth>'best' depends on randomised production + how close together industries are
08:52<@planetmaker>of course. But that's only true, if they're somewhat equal in the first place. Otherwise it's still true
08:53<andythenorth>currently the coal -> ensp chain is too dominant
08:53<@planetmaker>If wtih 80% probability coal is best - oh well. Doesn't matter to care about 20% games ;-)
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09:11*andythenorth wonders why FIRS default PAX rate is so low :o
09:14<andythenorth>RL coal price per t is about same as oil price per barrel
09:14<andythenorth>but 1 barrel != 1t :D
09:14<Rubidium>fonsinchen: in line count yours is smaller. Mine "keeps" the service order as the current order over loading at stations by exploiting some stuff
09:15<Rubidium>but it skips the order as cur_order_index
09:16<fonsinchen>Mine asserts that auto-orders are created after the service order and also fixes the cur_order_index to make things work.
09:16<fonsinchen>But I'm not sure it really works. There might be a problem with multiple service orders in a row.
09:17<Rubidium>multiple service orders in a row are bogus in any case
09:17<Rubidium>if the first doesn't trigger, then the rest doesn't trigger due to evaluating the next order
09:18<Rubidium>if the first does trigger, then the rest doesn't trigger due to it having gone to a depot very recently
09:18<Rubidium>but yes, that corner case has to be tested (somewhat)
09:18<Rubidium>likewise what happens when the service order is the last/first in the list
09:22*andythenorth ponders
09:22<andythenorth>I need a way for a vehicle to reduce the late delivery penalty :P
09:23<andythenorth>fish should be a high-speed cargo
09:23<andythenorth>but boats aren't
09:23<frosch123>the problem with both of your patches is, that it breaks everything which assumes that the current order is after cur_order_index
09:23<andythenorth>boats have ice :P
09:23<fonsinchen>I'll have a look at that later. First I have to get myself into a living state and then do some work for my day job.
09:23<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ any bright ideas?
09:23<frosch123>currently i try what happens if there are two cur_order_index, one for the current automatic order, one for the current real order
09:24<frosch123>andythenorth: check the payment callback whether it tells something about speed and or vehicle type
09:25<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Custom_profit_calculation_for_cargoes_39_
09:25<andythenorth>seems to have a limited range of vars
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09:25<noteda>http://youtube.com/watch?v=cK5yl9t_vfc iwillrockyou
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09:26<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Cargos
09:26<andythenorth>"Currently, cargos don't have 40+x, 60+x, or 80+x variables, but they might be added later."
09:26<@Alberth>6 fishing grounds, and no harbour :p
09:26<andythenorth>What would type 82 check be for a cargo?
09:26<andythenorth>the station, or the transporting vehicle?
09:28<frosch123>or the industry/town ? :p
09:28<andythenorth>hmm
09:28<andythenorth>custom profit would enable various interesting gameplay effects
09:29<andythenorth>reduced penalty for refrigerated cargos
09:29<andythenorth>enhanced passenger rate for e.g. restaurant car in train
09:29-!-mode/#openttd [+b noteda!*@*] by SmatZ
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: you think that helps?
09:29<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: not really
09:30<andythenorth>improved payment for an 'improved' station :P
09:30<Rubidium>s/not \(.*\)/\1 not/
09:30*andythenorth admits to playing a lot of railroad tycoon
09:30<@SmatZ>ok :)
09:30<@Terkhen>traitor!
09:30<Rubidium>SmatZ: but heh, if it makes you feel better... why not. It doesn't hurt us much
09:31<@SmatZ>Rubidium: indeed :-)
09:32<andythenorth>so I would need some kind of new vehicle property
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: different pricing for local and long distance passengers
09:33<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's already possible with the cb
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i mean whether a passenger travelled in a long distance car. not what distance he travelled
09:34<andythenorth>ok
09:34<andythenorth>some kind of label system for vehicles
09:34<andythenorth>I believe I've thought of that before :P
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>basically: local passenger: low income, but low sensitivity to time. long distance passenger: higher income, but high sensitivity to time. long distance passenger with dining car: higher income, medium sensitivity to time [dining car has high maintenance, so only useful in longer trains]
09:37<andythenorth>I thought labels would also be a good way to indicate compatibility between vehicles
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think the whole mixing between vehicle sets thing is bogus...
09:38<andythenorth>should coal be more or less money-earning than PAX in default FIRS?
09:38<andythenorth>currently way more.... seems wrong
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>in the beginning of the prussian state railway (around 1880-ish), the government had decided to reduce the transport price for coal, to encourage the factories to buy the local coal, instead of import coal from england
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>(where "local" means silesia and the rhine province)
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09:44*andythenorth rebalances FIRS rates
09:45<andythenorth>bulk cargos: low rate, barely any payment penalty
09:45<andythenorth>town cargos, very high rates, steep payment penalty
09:45<andythenorth>farm cargos: increased rates so farms are more interesting to play with
09:45<andythenorth>intermediate cargos: mixed
09:46<andythenorth>and PAX way increased
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>i guess low price rate can explain the problems i'm having ;)
09:55<andythenorth>I can't decide what to do for 'Dredging Site'
09:55<andythenorth>either show a crane on a barge / platform
09:55<andythenorth>or do it like the Fishing Grounds - some bouys
09:55<andythenorth>and include dredgers in FISH
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'm leaning towards barge/platform
10:01<andythenorth>I'm leaning towards both (random), or user configurable, or detect sets known to contain dredgers and change accordingly
10:09*andythenorth ponders
10:09<andythenorth>dredging site ~= quarry
10:10<andythenorth>but combining one industry with onshore and offshore variants is a brainshaft
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose you can retroactively change payment rates in a running game...
10:15<@Alberth>andythenorth: Fertilizer plant does 8t production per 8t delivered, except it accepts liters, and produces crates
10:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you sort of can
10:17<andythenorth>it's not supposed to work, but does seem to
10:17<andythenorth>I wouldn't trust it
10:17<andythenorth>Alberth: that raises the 'crates' issue again
10:17<andythenorth>:D
10:17<andythenorth>among other things :P
10:18<@Alberth>oh, the less generic description thingie
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>non-water liquids (like oil) tend to have lower density than water
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>so 1000l < 1t
10:19<andythenorth>the spec allows for that
10:19<andythenorth>I will happily put in whatever units other people provide in tickets :D
10:19<andythenorth>it's one of those things I don't care about ;)
10:23<@Alberth>interestingly, the monthly crate delivery count to the forest is accurate :)
10:24<andythenorth>yes
10:24<andythenorth>that was slightly puzzling
10:24<andythenorth>but the forest probably has no unhandled cbs
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10:27-!-mode/#openttd [-b noteda!*@*] by SmatZ
10:27-!-mode/#openttd [+b noteda*!*@*] by SmatZ
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10:28<frosch123>smatz is too fast for me :)
10:28<@SmatZ>:-)
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10:36<Wolf01>what about a ctrl+click->select number of days to delay the start of vehicles from a depot?
10:37-!-DanMacK [~cebf4595@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
10:38<DanMacK>Hey all
10:39<Wolf01>hoy
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10:51<andythenorth>frosch123: how feasible is something akin to action 14, but for vehicles?
10:51<andythenorth>purpose would be to allow newgrf author to put additional static properties on vehicles
10:52<frosch123>what meaning?
10:52<andythenorth>and possibly let player make certain choices of static property (e.g. livery, capacity etc)
10:52<@planetmaker>eh?
10:52<@planetmaker>those are certainly not static properties
10:52<andythenorth>hmm
10:53<andythenorth>terminology is always a bit...fluid in my head
10:53<andythenorth>:)
10:55<andythenorth>it could be a solution to multiple issues:
10:56<andythenorth>using cargo subtype is a bonkers way to do capacity refits
10:56<andythenorth>using cargo subtype is a bonkers way to do livery refit
10:57<andythenorth>any sane compatibility check between vehicles when using cb 1D / 15E requires a grf to know about all other vehicles in all other sets
10:57<andythenorth>which is insane
10:57<andythenorth>using cargo subtype for regearing is bonkers
10:58<andythenorth>basically grf authors are using subtype as a chunk of vehicle-local-storage...
10:58<andythenorth>..., which happens to be connected to the GUI so they can provide arbitrary strings
10:59<andythenorth>what would be a better way?
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>the better way would be exactly to turn cargo subtype into a vehicle-local storage independent from actual cargo
11:02<andythenorth>and in a way with GUI menu(s) for player?
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with the split refit gui?
11:04<andythenorth>maybe nothing
11:05<andythenorth>depends how many choices you get and whether they're mutually exclusive or can be combined
11:08-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>so you need a way to construct a custom dialog ;)
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11:24<Hirundo>Trains have 'user defined data' already, but without access to the GUI that's pretty useless
11:26<andythenorth>which is where something akin to action 14 comes into play...
11:26<andythenorth>all it can do is set the values of certain stored properties on the vehicle
11:26<andythenorth>newgrf author has to handle what to do with those in nfo
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11:50<Eddi|zuHause>problem with that: if you fit that into the refit gui, you must make test-runs with several callbacks, to update the capacity and possibly visual representation. those test-runs may not alter the persistent storage
11:52<andythenorth>so handling failed cbs would present a problem?
11:52<andythenorth>I think I see the issue
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's the same thing as running commands without DC_EXEC
11:54<andythenorth>hang on
11:54<andythenorth>where did persistent storage arrive in this question? :)
11:55<__ln__>Who is running OTTD in fullscreen on Windows?
11:55<andythenorth>persistent storage isn't what I'm thinking of
11:55<andythenorth>although it might come to the same thing when all said and done
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you said each gui-element has one or more persistant storage bits assigned to it
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>like action 14 and parameter bitstuffing
11:56<andythenorth>effectively yes
11:56<andythenorth>if nfo can modify the parameters, I see the issue
11:57<andythenorth>but we established before that parameters that can be modified from nfo are a no-no
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, varaction2 may change persistant storage...
11:57<andythenorth>but not global grf parameters...
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>this is different from parameters
11:57<andythenorth>but it can't be like persistent storage :)
11:58<andythenorth>there is that nasty issue where a consist checks storage on another vehicle which refers back to first vehicle in some horrible loop
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>so you want to make it read-only if action 14-style refit gui is present?
11:59<andythenorth>I can't see any other route that is viable
12:00<kamnet>Looks like Planetmaker has his hands full today ;-)
12:00<@planetmaker>meh
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>you might have weird feedback effects, but not really a loop in the sense of repeaded calculation
12:00<@planetmaker>I should just not read the forum today anymore. I'm sufficiently annoyed already at all this ignorance
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>the callback can only be run at defined locations in the code
12:07*fonsinchen hates javascript vigorously.
12:07<fonsinchen>Why couldn't they invent a language for the web that's actually a language.
12:07<@Terkhen>^
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>misguided design goals like "targetting simple people without computer science background". has also brought us glorious moments in history like COBOL
12:11<fonsinchen>fortunately COBOL is mostly dead, though.
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>unless you get hired to maintain 50 year old banking software :p
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12:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21921 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: Move GroundVehicleSubtypeFlags as they will be needed by some Vehicle functions.
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12:26<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21922 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: Unify articulated vehicle checking functions.
12:27<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21923 /trunk/src/ (train.h vehicle_base.h): -Codechange: Unify articulated vehicle iteration functions.
12:29<andythenorth>Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2219
12:29<andythenorth>^ also applies to Machine Shop and other industries
12:29<andythenorth>:(
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12:30<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21924 /trunk/src/ (9 files):
12:30<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Unify some parts of the articulated vehicle code.
12:30<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Cleanup: Avoid conversions to Train and RoadVehicle that are no longer required.
12:30<@Terkhen>^ another bit of code unified :)
12:32<andythenorth>:)
12:32*planetmaker applauds Terkhen :-)
12:32<@Terkhen>besides a few bits of code remaining, now Train and RoadVehicle use the same code for articulated vehicles
12:33<@planetmaker>:-)
12:33<@Terkhen>once I finish with the remaining articulated vehicle changes I'll give depot_gui another look to see what else we need to unify before starting with wagons
12:33<@planetmaker>Next then: articulated vehicles with arbitrary ID?
12:34<andythenorth>Terkhen: I had a go at the depot code
12:34<andythenorth>and broke stuff :P
12:34<andythenorth>it looked like quite a lot of changes needed
12:34<andythenorth>but most looked to me simple
12:34<@Terkhen>planetmaker: since I have no clue of what you are suggesting, I suppose it is related to the NewGRF specs
12:35<@Terkhen>I should try to code an articulated vehicle to understand that part
12:35<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes, it is :-)
12:35<@planetmaker>the articulated parts can - afaik - have only an ID between 64 and 128(?)
12:35<@planetmaker>or something. I never coded one
12:35<andythenorth>I think that changed
12:35<@planetmaker>it did?
12:35<andythenorth>I'd have to read commits
12:35<andythenorth>or ask someone who knows :P
12:36<@Terkhen>hmm... why is that? some weird arbitrary limitation?
12:36-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@174.122.112.*] by planetmaker
12:36<andythenorth>ID had to be less than <128
12:36<andythenorth>there's probably a good bit-based reason somewhere
12:36<@Terkhen>oh, missing bits in callbacks or something like that
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12:37<@planetmaker>Terkhen: it's newgrf specs... limitations are always there for obscure historical reasons ;-)
12:39<@Terkhen>yes, these limitations always make me remember those famous computing quotes about "x will be enough for everybody"
12:40<@planetmaker>tehehe - me, too
12:40<@planetmaker>like ipv4 ;-)
12:40<@planetmaker>or as they now tell for ipv6 ;-)
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12:41<@planetmaker>I wonder how many years that will last.
12:41<__ln__>#elsewhere someone was remembering that in the original Civilization pyramids allowed a revolution without a period of anarchy
12:41<@Terkhen>640K of ram, 5 computers for the united states, etc
12:41<@planetmaker>oh... a windows administrator account using IRC
12:41<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah.
12:42<@planetmaker>world market: 5 computers / year
12:42<@Terkhen>:D
12:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: thanks
12:43<andythenorth>planetmaker: I need to specify sugar refinery industry window text depending on climate
12:43<andythenorth>how do I do that?
12:43<@planetmaker>define 4 strings.
12:44<@planetmaker>set the stringID into a parameter, depending upon climate
12:44<andythenorth>ok
12:44<@planetmaker>write that stringID via action6 into the action4
12:44<nicfer>remember the suggestions about trains requiring fuel to run?
12:44<@planetmaker>ehm... not action4, but whereever the string is used in the industry definition
12:44<@planetmaker>or you just do it simpler, andythenorth :
12:45<@planetmaker>is it an action0 string?
12:45<andythenorth>I thought calling it 'Sugar' might be sufficient, but not
12:45<andythenorth>no it's an industry window text - D0 probably
12:45<Mazur>_In_ I have that one lying around.
12:45<nicfer>well, that would've a good idea for a challenge mode
12:45<@planetmaker>well... but where / how are they given?
12:46<andythenorth>lang/7F_any.pnfo is where the text is
12:46<@planetmaker>:-) I meant rather conceptually
12:46<Mazur>pm: Wasm't it "5 computers(/year) by the year 2000"?
12:46<@planetmaker>which action brings it into the game?
12:46<andythenorth>sugar refinery industry window text, it's cb
12:46<andythenorth>I could branch on climate in varaction 2
12:47<andythenorth>but that's a bad idea
12:47<@planetmaker>ah, callback.
12:47<andythenorth>be better to change text contents depending on climate
12:47<@planetmaker>yes, then climate-branching might be easiest.
12:48<nicfer>players start with a limited stock of fuel to run some oil routes in order to prospere
12:50*andythenorth puzzled
12:50<@planetmaker>hm?
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12:51<andythenorth>I don't want to use the cb
12:51<andythenorth>that means branching the template
12:52<@planetmaker>can you give me the template filename and the industry filename?
12:53<andythenorth>sugarrefinery.pnfo
12:54<andythenorth>you've solved this for the sugar cane cargo label - in nfo_lang.pnfo
12:55<@planetmaker>I did?
12:56<andythenorth>yes
12:56<@planetmaker>hm... :-)
12:56<andythenorth>I think I see how to do it
12:56<andythenorth>but not sure how to avoid breakages
12:56<andythenorth>action 7 decides the contents of the string
12:56<@planetmaker>yeah, seems like an easy solution, too :-)
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14:48<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=927440#p927440 <-- so... everyone is asked to download that savegame and suggest a better station ;-) :-P
14:48<@planetmaker>quite a modest request, I think
15:00<frosch123>upload the latest ps game, and tell him you extended the network a bit
15:03<Wolf01>ahahah
15:09<z-MaTRiX_>hey-ho
15:09<z-MaTRiX_>hm
15:09<z-MaTRiX_>was wondering about the new control traaaforming modifier
15:10<z-MaTRiX_>whats up <;
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>short version: you can't flatten the entire world in one go anymore
15:15<@Alberth>except in the scenario editor :p
15:18<ABCRic>:(
15:18<z-MaTRiX_>;<
15:18<z-MaTRiX_><;
15:18<z-MaTRiX_>btw
15:18<z-MaTRiX_>this must be asked many times
15:18<z-MaTRiX_>why does a maglev break down?
15:19-!-DanMacK [~cebf4595@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:19<@Alberth>it's made of parts that fail
15:19<z-MaTRiX_>only cheap chinese maglevs available in game and superconductors overheat, computers freeze? :(
15:19<@planetmaker>why does a car break down? a train? a plane?
15:19<@Alberth>magnetism also fails every now and then
15:20<@planetmaker>you don't honestly think that any technology is safe of any failrue
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>they parked a maintenance car on the track.
15:20<z-MaTRiX_>i do
15:20<z-MaTRiX_>:)
15:20<@Alberth>there is a setting for that :)
15:20<z-MaTRiX_>sure
15:20<@planetmaker>high-temperature super-conductors start to fail above ~80K
15:20<z-MaTRiX_>but that setting assumes everything is breakdown-free
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's "cool" to live in a world where 80K is "high temperature" :p
15:21<z-MaTRiX_>oc aeroplances can crash sometimes
15:21<@planetmaker>hehe
15:21<z-MaTRiX_>*aeroplanes
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15:21<@Alberth>I'd like to have some of the disasters, but not all. You have to pick the setting that gives you the least stress when playing.
15:22<z-MaTRiX_>just annoying to see a high-tech maglev train breakdown :)
15:22<andythenorth>new disasters :P
15:22<andythenorth>disaster framework
15:23*andythenorth wonders what would be a good disaster
15:23<andythenorth>why do I turn disasters off?
15:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: yeah, I had such high hopes, but alas
15:23<z-MaTRiX_>when ufo crashes into a city
15:23<z-MaTRiX_><;
15:23<andythenorth>are disasters just rubbish?
15:23<andythenorth>or is it the ensuing micro-management that's rubbish :P
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15:24<@Alberth>for me it is an annoying ufo that repeatedly destroys the same spot
15:24<z-MaTRiX_>hehe
15:24<z-MaTRiX_>make it random then
15:24<@Alberth>it IS random, but not enough
15:24<z-MaTRiX_>weighted on populated places
15:24<andythenorth>floods - all trains run at 10% of normal speed
15:24<andythenorth>better/
15:24<andythenorth>?
15:27<z-MaTRiX_>earthquakes
15:27<z-MaTRiX_><;
15:27<z-MaTRiX_>land moves
15:27<z-MaTRiX_>trains then go in a big hole of boiling lava
15:28<Eddi|zuHause><z-MaTRiX_> just annoying to see a high-tech maglev train breakdown :) <-- "realistically", the higher the tech, the more likely it breaks down.
15:29<z-MaTRiX_>well
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>just compare german technology with russian technology :p
15:29<z-MaTRiX_>it levitattes above the track
15:29<z-MaTRiX_>and basic magnetism causes that
15:29<z-MaTRiX_>magnetism will fail?
15:29<@planetmaker>basic?
15:29<z-MaTRiX_>yes, no special things
15:30<@planetmaker>it's lifted by linear drives. Which is a complicated piece of electricity
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX_: doesn't mean the electric current can't overheat some parts
15:30<z-MaTRiX_>some coils get electric current
15:30<@planetmaker>never seen a burned-out coil?
15:30<@planetmaker>a bad contact?
15:30<ABCRic>In real life, a magnet failing, a computer missing an instruction, or something as small as that would cause the train to derail
15:30<z-MaTRiX_>and you think they designed the maglev to overheat sometimes?
15:30<z-MaTRiX_>:)
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>there's SOOOOO many things that can go wrong in a maglev...
15:30<ABCRic>you should be happy it just stops :)
15:30<z-MaTRiX_>sure if computer fails
15:30<z-MaTRiX_>it can stop
15:31<z-MaTRiX_>and if no power
15:31<z-MaTRiX_>;<
15:31<@planetmaker>power glitch causing temporary loss of lift, causing train to become... crashed
15:31<z-MaTRiX_>actually
15:31<z-MaTRiX_>it has wheels
15:31<z-MaTRiX_>and will land on them
15:31<z-MaTRiX_>its just not cool
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>you can still throw away the wheels afterwards...
15:31<@planetmaker>why? The lift cannot fail after all >:-D
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>that is maintenance which will delay the train
15:33*Alberth still votes for failing magnetism in OpenTTD
15:33<z-MaTRiX_>“Proven" maglev systems are in commercial operation in Nagoya, Japan (March 2005) and Shanghai, China (March 2004) and both systems operate with a 99.97% on time – to the second – schedule reliability due to precise computer controlled operations
15:33<z-MaTRiX_>:)
15:33<z-MaTRiX_>maintenance included
15:34<z-MaTRiX_>Maglev systems can operate on steeper grades in all-weather conditions with unchanged schedule reliability
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15:34<z-MaTRiX_>High-Speed Maglev (HSM) systems are vastly superior to all traditional (regardless of speed) rail in acceleration, braking, safety, noise levels, all-weather operations, infrastructure longevity/sustainability, maintenance and now, construction costs and speed of construction
15:34<@Alberth>I am SO glad OpenTTD is not realistic :)
15:34<z-MaTRiX_>Maglev has non-contact, frictionless operations which allows inherently super low maintenance and low life cycle costs, regardless of weather conditions
15:34<z-MaTRiX_>Maglev systems are long electric motors – the vehicles and guideways (tracks) are interdependent and comprise the two basic elements of an electric motor with no need for bearings or grease
15:35<ABCRic>Also, maglev will fail when the earth inverts its magnetic poles.
15:35<z-MaTRiX_>no
15:35<@planetmaker>not quite
15:35<z-MaTRiX_>the track generates magnetic field for levitation
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>i seriously can't decide whether i should laugh at you or feel sad about you...
15:37<ABCRic>maybe not, but it makes some really annoying noise. Or so I heard
15:37<ABCRic>:P
15:38<z-MaTRiX_>haha
15:38<z-MaTRiX_>the wind causes annoying noise ?
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15:48<z-MaTRiX_>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuSrLvCVoVk&feature=related
15:48<z-MaTRiX_>heres the real thing
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16:37<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21925 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp train.h vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Doc: Doxygen additions and markup corrections to vehicle-related functions.
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17:16<andythenorth>using smoke to hold more cargos to ships?
17:16<andythenorth>I've read the smoke code, I think it's a no no no
17:17<@Terkhen>I don't think that smoke is associated in any way to the vehicle that produces it
17:17<andythenorth>yup
17:17<andythenorth>I wondered about some crazy scheme where cargo is shifted from one smoke vehicle to next
17:17<andythenorth>like a bucket chain
17:17<Wolf01>clone train crashes the game (r21924 nightly)
17:17<andythenorth>but it would be nuts :P
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what happens when you run out of vehicle IDs and a smoke puff is skipped?
17:18<andythenorth>your cargo went 'puff' :)
17:19<andythenorth>spoilage :)
17:20<ABCRic>Wolf01: indeed
17:21<andythenorth>electricity is like underground metro
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17:21<andythenorth>it's the suggestion that won't die :P
17:23*andythenorth knows at least two ways to implement it
17:23<andythenorth>one of which is possible
17:26<ABCRic>Access violation reading location 0x00000008, @vehicle_cmd.cpp:789 if (w->IsGroundVehicle() && w->HasArticulatedPart())
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>missing a check w != NULL
17:28<Wolf01>eh, unified too much ;)
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i guess Terkhen should check that?
17:32<@Terkhen>ABCRic: please post a bug report, I can't look at that right now
17:32<ABCRic>Terkhen: there is one already
17:33<@Terkhen>ok
17:33<ABCRic>FS#4450 it is
17:33<@Terkhen>I wonder why it did not appear while profiling different games for hours
17:33<@Terkhen>but I'll know later
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18:04<@Terkhen>heh, cloning
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18:25<@Terkhen>hmm... this is not making any sense so I'll look into it tomorrow
18:25<@Terkhen>good night
18:29<Wolf01>'night
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18:42<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21926 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4450](r21924): v != w.
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18:59<ABCRic>'night
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19:46<DoubleYou>hey all, i was wondering, did the 2cc trainset rename or is it just gone from the newgrf online content delivery system?
19:47<DoubleYou>when i look for 2cc i get the chiameara addon, subway and 'generic european set'
19:48<DoubleYou>but the eu set doesn't have cargo wagons for FIRs, as the forum topic mentions
19:50<Ammler>DoubleYou: which openttd version?
19:51<DoubleYou>i'm running 1.0.5
19:52<DoubleYou>is there maybe another cargo set which is recommended for FIRs?
19:52<Ammler>ukrs
19:52<DoubleYou>I got the HEQS but that's road and tram only :)
19:53<Ammler>you can use multiple set at once
19:53<DoubleYou>i know, that's why I needed another one for trains
19:54<Ammler>or use beta4, there you have 2cctrainset
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>you should really play FIRS with the beta, alone for the production chain display ;)
19:56<Ammler>indeed
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>and the issue with no 2cc set for 1.0.5 you should report in the 2cc thread in the forum
19:58<Ammler>well, with 1.0.5, you might get only 2cc 1.0
19:58<DoubleYou>production chain display? i might just go for the beta 4 then :)
19:58<Ammler>but you should also use 2cc 2beta
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>well, true. but it should still be downloadable at all
19:59<Ammler>DJNekkid: you need to rise max version for 2cc 1.0 :-)
20:00<DoubleYou>hehe
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 40*5*60*60/1024
20:00<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 703.125
20:00<DoubleYou>is there a readup on the forums about that production chain display?
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>there might be a wiki page
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20:05<DoubleYou>i can only find mentions about it, not a preview screenshot
20:05<DoubleYou>would it be something like this? http://openttd.com.pl/pliki/schemat.pdf
20:06<Ammler>yes, just ingame
20:06<DoubleYou>sweet
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20:09<z-MaTRiX_>i remember the chains in game...
20:09<z-MaTRiX_>ahah
20:09<z-MaTRiX_>train running costs
20:10<z-MaTRiX_>-40M euros in 2203
20:10<z-MaTRiX_>train income +75M
20:10<z-MaTRiX_>but earned many billion euros
20:12<z-MaTRiX_>admiralai freaked out <;
20:12<DoubleYou>i just downloaded and started beta4, but how do you get the industry chain display then?
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>click on an industry
20:13<z-MaTRiX_>ever tried clock on an industry? :)
20:13<z-MaTRiX_>hehe
20:14<DoubleYou>heh. i expected a whole list for all industries like that pdf :)
20:14<DoubleYou>but that's more logical and easier :)
20:14<z-MaTRiX_>whats the bad in you click on it and see the list?
20:15<z-MaTRiX_>dont have to search a pdf
20:15<DoubleYou>wow that's pretty neat function
20:16<DoubleYou>it's clickable and all
20:16<DoubleYou>kudos to the creator
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>there's also the "show in map" button ;)
20:17<DoubleYou>yes exactly
20:18<DoubleYou>might i recommend a feature? :) hehe
20:18<DoubleYou>don't know where to do that
20:19<DoubleYou>on all buttons a right click shows the help - i suggest also that for the help in that screen instead of waiting for a long hover
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's a setting
20:19<DoubleYou>i'm thinking too fast...
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>advanced settings -> interface -> hover for popup
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>set to 0 to get the right-click behaviour back
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20:21<DoubleYou>yes i found it, thanks!
20:21<DoubleYou>after 3 years of too busy study finally found time to play it again
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>before you suggest any more features, i suggest you read the changelog ;)
20:22<DoubleYou>have been playing the game since 1994 :)
20:22<DoubleYou>hehe thanks
20:22<DoubleYou>yes
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20:24<DoubleYou>hm, then this is a bug? the help text doesn't display anymore in the chain when set to right click hehe
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20:34<Eddi|zuHause>which help text isn't showing that was showing before?
20:35<DoubleYou>for example, if you show the chain for coal (and I'm using FIRs) then it can go to a lime kiln, but also stone goes there, so the lime kiln shows a not-connected 'stone' entry which you can click on
20:35<DoubleYou>hovering on it shows 'stone click to see the industry chain' etc
20:36<DoubleYou>but with the help set to right click, that doesn't show anymore'
20:36<DoubleYou>just like any other hover text in the industry chain panel
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>interesting. that might indeed be a bug
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>report at bugs.openttd.org
20:37<Rubidium>"click to see the industry chain" sounds like a tooltip
20:37<Rubidium>given you changed the tooltips to be shown on right click instead of hovering...
20:37<Rubidium>... it not showing when hovering is the right behaviour
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20:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but the tooltip doesn't seem to show up on right clicking either
20:43<Rubidium>then file a bug report
20:43<DJNekkid>Ammler: any suggestion to what?
20:44<DJNekkid>Ammler: the-rev-before-1.1.0-beta1 ?
20:44<DoubleYou>i'm trying to register my username, waiting for the validation email to arrive...
20:45<Ammler>dj release 1.0.F :-)
20:45<Ammler>or however that works :-)
20:45<Rubidium>DoubleYou: yeah, that can take a while (sometimes hours) thanks to the "lovely" spammers
20:47<DoubleYou>okay let's play further for a while then. i thought i also saw a sprite but (at least, it looks very strange)
20:47<DoubleYou>*bug
20:49<DoubleYou>don't know if this is really a bug, or just supposed to be like this: http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1521/lakesprites.png
20:50<DoubleYou>difficult to otherwise fix, i suppose?
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's supposed to be like this
20:50<DoubleYou>ok :)
20:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's less apparent with the default grfs
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the original one
20:51<DoubleYou>yes in the original ones you didn't really had a beach
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>might be possible to implement that these "corners" get flooded as well, all the way to the end
20:52<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if it's worth doing though...
20:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is r21513 too old or did FIRS not yet implement genders for industries?
21:00<Eddi|zuHause>how are genders specified in grfs?
21:01<devilsadvocate>'genders' for industries?
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>devilsadvocate: the news message "new <industry> founded at X" must respect gender of <industry> to transform "new" into the right form (in some languages)
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21:11<z-MaTRiX_>faster, harder, scooter
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21:26<Eddi|zuHause>damn, even with the increased payment rates, i'm still about 600 bucks off per month :(
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21:38<Eddi|zuHause>hm... somehow my FIRS patch for genders didn't seem to work
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22:00<Eddi|zuHause>why does there never open a new industry when you need one ;)
22:04<Eddi|zuHause>where's andythenorth when you need him?
22:06<__ln__>and why indeed is it so silent here at 4 am CET?
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... anyone point him to www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/firs_german_gender.diff
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>seems to work ;)
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>(might need slight cleaning up)
22:12<__ln__>fourth gender
22:12<__ln__>non-countable i presume
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's for plural
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>hence "p" ;)
22:14<__ln__>clever
22:14<Eddi|zuHause>it was my idea, about two years ago or so ;)
22:16<Eddi|zuHause>in plural, there is no syntactical difference between male/female/neutral anymore, so only one plural gender is needed
22:18<__ln__>oh, a serious train accident in germany
22:21<Eddi|zuHause>i heard
22:22<Eddi|zuHause>about 10 dead. reason unknown. double track section at a single track line, passenger train hit a freight train
22:24<Eddi|zuHause>neither train owned by the DB
22:26<__ln__>the (other) lokführer being killed suggests it wasn't at least the same kind of derailing as last summer
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 30 00:00:40 2011