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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-01-30

---Logopened Sun Jan 30 00:00:40 2011
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03:08<andythenorth>morneeng
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03:42<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: flooding those will destroy a lot of infrastructure in current savegames
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03:55<@Terkhen>good morning
03:56<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
04:00<@planetmaker>moin
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04:07<Wolf01>hello
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05:00<andythenorth>currently FIRS can build n fishing harbours per town
05:00<andythenorth>and often builds more than 1 at map gen
05:00<andythenorth>this looks good
05:00<andythenorth>but is it wise?
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05:24<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I don't know if they have changed, but a few months ago I had to retry many times to get a single fishing harbour in a 256x256 map
05:24<andythenorth>interestink
05:24<andythenorth>that might be about to get worse :P
05:24<andythenorth>do you remember what sea level setting?
05:25<@Terkhen>it was probably 33% or something near that
05:26<andythenorth>actually, thinking about it, it's more likely you didn't have any coastal towns with correct land shape
05:27<@Terkhen>I usually don't set many towns
05:28<andythenorth>fishing harbour is town only
05:28<andythenorth>that looks good
05:28<andythenorth>but sucks for gameplay :P
05:28<andythenorth>because the food is already in town :
05:28<andythenorth>:P
05:29<@Terkhen>it fits nicely in subartic, where the towns that need food are usually far from the coast
05:29<andythenorth>I shall leave it be then
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05:43<ZirconiumX>hello guys and/or gals
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06:36<@planetmaker>hm... total savegames and screenshots of the competition are already 100 MB... takes its time uploading ;-)
06:37-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
06:38<@Terkhen>:)
06:38<@planetmaker>but now finally also web page is written automatically ;-)
06:38<@planetmaker>just ./create_webpage and then upload...
06:39-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f72e9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:39<@Terkhen>that's nice :)
06:40<@Terkhen>I should also do a script to profile automatically, it would save me much time
06:43<@planetmaker>:-) yeah. If it is just loading a save and letting it run with different openttds, it's a not very long one...
06:44<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/titlegame/do-it.sh <-- that's what I use to create the pngs; it's Rb's one from last year with a slight mod
06:45<frosch123>afternoon everyone
06:45<@planetmaker>quak :-)
06:45<frosch123>moin :p
06:48<@Terkhen>hi frosch123, thank you for finding those w :)
06:49<frosch123>i think i stared more than 5 minutes on those lines :p
06:50<@Terkhen>I stared at the diff for 10 minutes or so, thinking "I don't see a difference"
06:50<@Terkhen>before going to bed :)
06:51<@Terkhen>hmm... I wonder why the method I used for checking crash.dmp files does not work on MSVC 2010
06:51*andythenorth should go on a FIRS r2k adventure
06:52<andythenorth>currently at r1643
06:52<andythenorth>but first....lunch!
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06:55<@Terkhen>oh, got it working now :)
06:56<frosch123>are you checking the duplicates?
06:56<@Terkhen>FS#4452 is a duplicate, yes
06:57<@Terkhen>I don't see any further tasks that could be a duplicate
06:57<frosch123>4451 is a duplicate of something else
06:58<@Terkhen>yes, I remember that assertion
07:30-!-thomas001 [~thomas@p5B0F6DD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
07:34<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/titlegame/index.html <-- new overview of current submissions to the titlegame competition
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07:47<frosch123>is that zoomed-out one really meant to be zoomed out?
07:48<Zuu>Also not all screenshots seem to have got generated for 2560x1600.
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07:56<Zuu>planetmaker: Typo on the website s/UT/UTC/
07:56-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-89-201.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
07:56<@planetmaker>Not at all. I'll pay attention to those 23 seconds or so ;-)
07:58-!-mib_wld66r [51b6278e@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
07:58<mib_wld66r>Hi guys ;)
07:59<@Alberth>hi
07:59<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21927 /trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp: -Change: Comment-style fixes.
07:59<@planetmaker>But fixed for the next version, Zuu :-)
07:59<@planetmaker>hi mib_wld66r
08:00<mib_wld66r>I need some help installing openTTD on a mac, think anyone can take a bit of time to just smooth me through the process, I ain't the best computer viz to put it like that :P
08:02<mib_wld66r>I just remember playing it many many years ago, it was such a great game! Need to have something to do at college :P
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08:04<Eddi|zuHause>argh... i missed andythenorth again...
08:05<perk11>mib_wld66r: http://openttd.eisbox.net/files/openttd-1.0.1-macosx-ub.zip
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: any ideas about http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/firs_german_gender.diff
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08:05<mib_wld66r>Thanks Perk11 ;)
08:06<@planetmaker>mib_wld66r: better get an official binary of the latest 1.1.0-beta4
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>mib_wld66r: don't use that. it's horribly outdated
08:06<@planetmaker>mib_wld66r: better get an official binary of the latest 1.1.0-beta5
08:06<@planetmaker>perk11: please better give official links. Thank you.
08:07<@planetmaker>A lot of things were fixed since
08:07<perk11>planetmaker: well, there wasn't one for 1.05
08:07<@planetmaker>and there won't be
08:07<perk11>and 1.1.0 is still beta
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08:08<ABCRic>perk11: it's stable enough for playing
08:08<@planetmaker>but he didn't ask for 1.0.5.
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>perk11: if you think "beta" is worse than "custom, completely unsupported"
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>mib_wld66r: anyway, http://www.openttd.org/download-testing should give you everything you need
08:09<mib_wld66r>Thanks ;)
08:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: looks fine for what I can tell and without testing it. I assume you did?
08:10<perk11>"Feature: After building a road or tram bridge/tunnel, connect it to any existing road or tram" I don't understansd, what is this?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i compiled it and waited for at least one industry to create
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>perk11: i guess like building station or depot, it creates a halftile connection on the adjacent tile, if it's not already there
08:11<perk11>oh
08:11<@planetmaker>^
08:11<perk11>should give it a try
08:12<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but your diff does not seem to be in UTF-8, can that be?
08:12<@planetmaker>or is it my browser which messes it up?
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it should be, why?
08:12<@planetmaker>sorry, yes, it's my browser
08:13<@planetmaker>or rather the mimi-type plug-in which allows to display everything, if desired ;-)
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: possibly "Fisch" should be renamed to "Fische". it's not "uncountable, singular" like in english ;)
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and "Depot" [in the station names] might rather be "Lager"?
08:18<@Terkhen>interesting diff :)
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08:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: Depot->Lager: yes
08:19<@planetmaker>With Fisch->Fische I'm not sure
08:19<@planetmaker>You only use the plural form, if you really count single fish
08:19<@planetmaker>Which you in this scale don't ;-)
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... if you say so ;)
08:20<@Terkhen>wouldn't this make FIRS not compatible with 1.0.5?
08:22<ABCRic>Terkhen: 1.1 will be out anytime soon ;)
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i don't know, but i would presume it'll just ignore the unknown characters
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08:22<@planetmaker>ABCRic: not before we also had some release candidates
08:23<ABCRic>:P
08:23<@planetmaker>Terkhen: that'd not be the most serious constraint, I think
08:23<@planetmaker>;-)
08:23<@planetmaker>it's using other non-1.0.x stuff, too
08:23<@Terkhen>I don't really mind since I always play with trunk, but it would be good to know if it does before uploading any new versions to bananas
08:23<@Terkhen>okay :)
08:24<@planetmaker>but it works so far, though less nicely wrt placement etc. So testing should be done in a quick way :-)
08:26<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: google war: "Tonne(n) Fisch": 2420 (38000) vs. "Tonne(n) Fische": 420 (5400)
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>what i don't understand in the above diff is the difference in the line "//Fish"
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>to me it doesn't look changed at all...
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>or is there line ending weirdness?
08:27<@planetmaker>you corrected trailing white space
08:27<@Terkhen>the first one has a space after Fish, the second one does not
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>interesting ;)
08:27<@Terkhen>the original translation has spaces at the end of most strings, I don't know why
08:27<@planetmaker>:-P
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>added "Lager" to it: http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/firs_german_gender_2.diff
08:33<@planetmaker>the script to check for language updates would profit from gloabally identify-able constituents of the gender define
08:33<@Terkhen>planetmaker: what do you mean?
08:33<@planetmaker>e.g. try to run from the scripts directory check_language.sh 02
08:33<frosch123>"Fische" is a piece cargo like livestock, "Fisch" is bulk
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08:34<@planetmaker>Terkhen: with the patch you'll always get the gender definitions as not-needed strings
08:34<@Terkhen>oh :)
08:35<@planetmaker>it could be filtered out if every such define would e.g. start with GENDER_
08:35<@planetmaker>or something else which is somewhat uniq
08:35<@Terkhen>yes, if we agree on a common identificator ignoring them on the script should be trivial
08:35<@Terkhen>GENDER_ seems fine
08:36<@planetmaker>ok
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08:40<@planetmaker>let's install that modified FIRS version and test 1.0.5
08:43<@planetmaker>hm, doesn't build, though
08:47<@planetmaker>does it actually build for you, Eddi|zuHause ?
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm, yes
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>what's the problem?
08:48<@planetmaker> //!!Invalid character: "M". // 0 * 0 04 0B 82 01 01 DC C3 9E M "Rohrzucker" 00
08:48<@planetmaker>and similar
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>that's weird
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>maybe your preprocessor works differently?
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: remove the #undef lines from the end?
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08:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i have a feeling the firs build system doesn't handle dependencies correctly
08:51<@planetmaker>that may be. But that does not explain an error as such
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08:51<@planetmaker>removing the #undef funnily has the desired result
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, it kinda does
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08:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: it does not explain the gcc to fail preprocessing it properly as that should work independent of what make considers a dependency.
08:55<@planetmaker>gcc knows nothing about those deps
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, but it explains why it built for me after adding these undefs
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>because it actually never processed them.
08:56<@planetmaker>ah. I think they need adding in remove_defines.pnfo
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a bad plan, because they're kinda very language dependent
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09:00<@planetmaker>Well, every language would have to add theirs there, yes
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>better add a <language>_cleanup.pnfo?
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09:05<@planetmaker>well. But that'd remove the one cleanup for all languages
09:05<@planetmaker>as we have now
09:05<@planetmaker>hm... sugar cane != Zucker
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>well _I_ didn't do the translation :p
09:11-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:13<@planetmaker>I don't think one can include a file which is given by a #define SOME_FILE_DEFINED - or?
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
09:21<@planetmaker>a test showed that it doesn't work ;-)
09:21<@planetmaker>and the manual seems to confirm
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09:25<Eddi|zuHause>what would be really useful is a "greedy" replacement of the M/W/... within the defines in german.pnfo
09:27<@planetmaker>hm?
09:27<@planetmaker>I replaced " M " and was done
09:27<@planetmaker>same with the other 3
09:27<@planetmaker>it just leaves the undefine
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09:29<Eddi|zuHause>i mean currently it works like this: ädefine M, #define STR_BLAH M "blah", enter generic lang, use STR_BLAH -> M "blah". use M -> "gender blah"
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>it would be better if it was: #define M, #define STR_BLAH M "blah", use M -> #define STR_BLAH "gender blah", enter generic lang, use STR_BLAH -> "gender blah"
09:30-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>then M doesn't need to be defined outside of german at all
09:31<@planetmaker>well. I'll go for the cleanup files
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09:52<@planetmaker>there you go, Eddi|zuHause, update your FIRS repo ;-)
09:52<@planetmaker>and I totally forgot to test 1.0.5 compatibility
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>haha :)
09:57<@Terkhen>:)
09:57<@Terkhen>I will prepare a similar update for spanish
10:00<@planetmaker>don't forget to add a separate cleanup file - though it doesn't complain without ;-)
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10:08<@planetmaker>great. Usage of deprecated functions in libpng 1.4
10:08<@planetmaker>I don't recall seeing that with 1.2
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>well, the functions might not have been deprecated yet in 1.2 :p
10:12<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but my system didn't change. So they introduced them between 1.2 and 1.4
10:14<@planetmaker>hm. My FIRS is not compatible with 1.0.5. Unknown action0 property
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>it really errors out on that?
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>might need an action7/9 around the gender translation table then
10:15<@planetmaker>yes
10:15<@planetmaker>maybe. I'll see
10:16<@planetmaker>[grf] [firs/firs.grf:320] ReserveChangeInfo: Unknown property 0x13 of feature 0x08, disabling
10:17<@planetmaker>hm, yes
10:17<@planetmaker>that's the gender translation table
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10:28<Puddles>Hi guys, it's me with the installment problems from earlier again, I have some problems getting the trainstation to accept resources... Any thoughts?
10:28<@Terkhen>explain your problem in more detail, please
10:31<Puddles>I just started playing the game now, and I am having problems getting the train station to accept the fact that there is a maize factory right by it...
10:31<perk11>can anyone here remove grfs from the bananas?
10:34<ABCRic>Puddles: before placing the station, check what it accepts by looking at the station windows
10:36<Puddles>Did that, said it accepts maize, but after it has been placed it no longer accepts it... Is this a known bug for the mac version?
10:36<Ammler>perk11: you should mail rubi (web->contact) and mention the point of tos it violates
10:37<perk11>Ammler: ok, thank you, it
10:37<@Alberth>Puddles no, can you supply a picture or save game?
10:37<perk11>*it's requested to remove in descriptiom
10:37<Ammler>if it is yours, just hide it with version information
10:37<@Alberth>perk11: devs don't read the descriptions
10:38<perk11>it's not mine
10:38<Puddles>ABCric: got it to work on a different station, I probably missed something, I'll try again :P Thanks though!
10:38<@planetmaker>hm.... also skipping the feature 08, property 13 does not quite give nice strings
10:41<@Alberth>perk11: why don't you ask the author?
10:42<@Alberth>ie removing a newgrf just because someone mails is not really ideal, unless you have proof of some license problem or it got uploaded by someone else than the author.
10:42<perk11>Alberth: http://perk11.info/tmp/grf.png
10:43<perk11>see the description
10:43<@Alberth>but not everybody uses OpenGFX+ Trains, do they?
10:44<perk11>idk
10:44<perk11>but I think the author wanted to remove it, but didn't know how to do it
10:44<Ammler>perk11: and why does such a grf violate tos?
10:44<perk11>Ammler: I didn't say it violates
10:45<Ammler>just set max version to 0 and it will go
10:45<Ammler>then it is impossible to delete it
10:45<@Alberth>probably, but the author should fix it (and even then I am not convinced it should be removed due to old savegames)
10:45<Ammler>(maybe 0 means no limit, so 1 is better :-)
10:45<@Alberth>Ammler: that will kill old save games, wouldn't it?
10:46<Ammler>Alberth: no
10:46<@Alberth>ok, then it's fine :)
10:46<Ammler>the version restriction do only affect download without md5sum
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10:47<perk11>so how do I contact the author?
10:48<Ammler>perk11: easiest might be mail via tt-forums
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11:11<@planetmaker>what's the problem with the bauxite wagon? Are you sure it's not the author who uploaded it himself?
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11:15<@Alberth>there is a description requesting it to be removed: http://perk11.info/tmp/grf.png
11:20<@planetmaker>well. It just says that one should use OpenGFX+Trains instead. The author (oberhumer) should just make it unavailable and be done
11:21<@planetmaker>unavailable as in set the max version to something very low
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11:56<@planetmaker>http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2011/01/28/video-cctv-tries-to-pass-off-%E2%80%98top-gun%E2%80%99-clip-as-military-drill/ <-- lool :-)
11:57<@planetmaker>showing holywood movie material to show the effectiveness of current fighter aircraft
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, the chinese are known to rip _anything_ off :p
12:00<heffer>geez. what is it that the chinese think they can get through with this?
12:00<heffer>it's not like the whole world is frowning at them already...
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly certain you'll find examples of FOX News doing exactly the same thing :p
12:00<__ln__>heffer: they own half the world
12:01<@planetmaker>I'd not hold a bet against that, Eddi|zuHause :-)
12:01<heffer>__ln__: if i'd own half the world i'd try to be more serious
12:02<heffer>i like to think of it as a kind of satire
12:02<heffer>well actually it's on the border to comedy
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12:12<frosch123>planetmaker: actually, during my service we saw the intro of james ryan to learn the strength of machine guns and flame throwers
12:15<@planetmaker>he, well. That might be something else; there's a difference between a somewhat documentary used for instruction purposes and a showing a move clip broadcasted as part of the actual news you try to deliver
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12:30<wargh>Good eavning. I'd like the random generator to make maps even more "mountanious" and with more water than the GUI allows me to do. Is there any way I can make this happen? I.e. I want less land that in form of steep islands with more distance to nearby land.
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12:30<@planetmaker>design by hand in the scenario editor or play more with the settings, wargh
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>wargh: the relevant code is in src/tgp.cpp
12:31<@planetmaker>like 0% land is quite few land
12:31<@planetmaker>and that can even be done in the GUI
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>wargh: or open an image editor and paint a greyscale-heightmap
12:31<@Terkhen>you can also try geogen
12:34<@Terkhen>hmm... the map scrolls way too much for me on linux
12:37<wargh>By hand is out of the question as I preffer the map to be randomly generated. And I think I can't get any furhter with the GUI settings. I can't find tgp.ccp with search.
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12:38<@Terkhen>wargh: which version are you using?
12:38<wargh>sStable download
12:38<Ammler>that is like "latest" :-)
12:39<wargh>I didn't know if he was maybe counting the different betas =)
12:39<wargh>Or Nightly
12:39<@Terkhen>wargh: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/custom_sea_level.png <-- you might want to give the beta a try, there you can customize the water level to get even more water in a scenario
12:41<wargh>Ok. As it is now in the stable version I would be happy if I could just raise seawater with one more lvl and the maps to be just a tad more mountaious. I think the very settings aren't really very.
12:41<wargh>But I guess it all comes down to personal prefernace
12:42<@Alberth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/src/tgp.cpp
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12:51<wargh>Thanks for the help, might just try out the beta then.
12:52<wargh>And just a little shoutout. Thank you to all that put time and effort into this project.
12:52<@Terkhen>you are welcome
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13:06<wargh>Hehe, I just noticed that I can't make smoke from a power station transparent so I can't see how the signal on my track is placed.
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13:08<DanMacK>Hey all
13:10<@Terkhen>hi DanMacK
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13:25<andythenorth>evaning
13:25<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
13:27<@Alberth>hi andy
13:30<@planetmaker>!ydna ollah
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>it takes a long time to teach your brain to not try to read that as a bot command :p
13:31<@planetmaker>;-)
13:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: the incompatibility with 1.0.x is not a problem
13:32<andythenorth>did you / will you update readme and changelog?
13:33<@planetmaker>I looked at the readme and only found one place mentioning explicitly the version - which I changed. Or I missed others
13:33<andythenorth>ok
13:33<@planetmaker>changelog is for before a release
13:33<@planetmaker>;-)
13:33<andythenorth>true
13:33<andythenorth>sometimes I start changelogs in advance, but not often
13:35*andythenorth has increasingly less patience with stupid suggestions
13:35*DanMacK is definitely sick of stupidity
13:36<@Terkhen>heh, which one
13:36<@Terkhen>?
13:36<andythenorth>I usually have patience (some natural, some because I make my own stupid suggestions)
13:37<andythenorth>the newgrf suggestion by muzzly
13:37<andythenorth>is the most epic piece of stupidity I've seen in a suggestion for some time
13:38<@Alberth>the 'become driver' was less stupid?
13:38<andythenorth>that patch exists somewhere :P
13:39<@Terkhen>in the Big Sets AND Single Items thread? his post is quite rude too
13:39<andythenorth>rude I overlook for anyone who's not native english
13:39<andythenorth>tbh many of the native english speakers are worse - they actually intend to be rude
13:39<andythenorth>hence why I never go in #tycoon
13:40<andythenorth>"Amount of sprites inside newgrf file is also limited because of compatibility with TTDP."
13:40<andythenorth>^ is that true?
13:40<@Terkhen>Hello, I am playing openttd not TTDP :D <-- you can't really blame this on not knowing the language well
13:40<@Terkhen>hmm... I have never been to that channel
13:41<Illegal_Alien>I am never rude, ow wait...
13:42<@Alberth>he seems to be posting in the wrong forum :)
13:42<andythenorth>is there a forum for 'idiocy' :P
13:43<frosch123>andythenorth: ttdp has a limit for realsprites (not counting pseudo sprites)
13:43<andythenorth>stupid, badly conceived, non-implementable suggestions for a bunch of problems that don't exist
13:43<andythenorth>hmm
13:43<@Terkhen>andythenorth: just ignore them
13:43*andythenorth has clearly drunk too much coffee
13:44<andythenorth>only 349 FIRS commits needed for r2k
13:44<andythenorth>:P
13:44<@Terkhen>:)
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r21928 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: portuguese - 5 changes by JayCity
13:45<@Terkhen>if you implement every stupid suggestion you will get there in no time at all!
13:45<andythenorth>FIRS doesn't have too many dumb suggestions :)
13:46<andythenorth>but there are a lot of contradictory requests :)
13:46<andythenorth>driving the train suggestion isn't so bad
13:46<andythenorth>sometimes it would be nice to force a train to go to a specific point
13:47<andythenorth>basically, 'try and get to this tile XY location (assuming it's a valid track type etc)
13:48<@Terkhen>you can achieve that with a waypoint
13:48<andythenorth>true
13:48<andythenorth>and inserting an extra order
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14:02<@Alberth>you will need a few for new string translations :)
14:12*andythenorth decides *not* to animate the little trucks in FIRS quarries
14:14<@planetmaker>Alberth: FIRS most of all needs an updated Dutch translation. Taking proper care of the genders ;-)
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14:15<CIA-11>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21929 /trunk/src/ (terraform_gui.cpp town_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#4554]: The town window would not be invalidated in the scenario editor if the ground changed and thus the required cargos for town growth
14:17<DanMacK>Were's your sense of adventure Andy? Don't want animation? :P
14:17<@Alberth>he wants a co-adventurer, I think :)
14:18<@planetmaker>He, who doesn't?
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14:18<andythenorth>I don't want to animate trucks driving, turning, loading, unloading across about 6 tiles, for at least three different layouts
14:18<andythenorth>with at least 2, maybe 4 generations of truck
14:19<@Alberth>better make a conveyor belt :p
14:19<andythenorth>indeed
14:19<andythenorth>original sprites used a conveyor belt
14:19<DanMacK>could be fun. Set it for FIRS version 1000 :P
14:19<andythenorth>but didn't look good :P
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14:22<@planetmaker>we're at FIRS version >1650 :-P
14:22<@planetmaker>hello DanMacK :-)
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14:24<DanMacK>Hey PM
14:24*andythenorth starts re-coding the tiresome forge / blacksmith chain :P
14:24<@planetmaker>I saw very quick issue solution in the other channel, andythenorth ;-)
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14:25<andythenorth>heh
14:30<bb10>So I run a server with dedicated OTTD. I have some lag issues though. How can I solve that?
14:33<bb10>It's running 1.1.0b4 btw
14:42<perk11>why isn't it possible to change newgrfs during the game in 1.1.0b4?
14:42<perk11>bb10: what kind of lag issues?
14:42<perk11>I'd been running dedicated server for a while
14:43<bb10>vehicles not moving smoothly
14:44<ABCRic>bb10: excessive cpu load?
14:45<bb10>nope
14:46<bb10>log has these: [2687551] Client #20 is slow, try increasing [network.]frame_freq to a higher value!
14:48<perk11>maybe it's really a slow client?
14:49<bb10>it happens to me too
14:52<ABCRic>bb10: a slow client will slow down other clients
14:53<bb10>oh
14:53<ABCRic>either that or it will desync
14:53<@Alberth>bb10: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=52575 is a recent discussion, perhaps it is useful
14:53<@Alberth>otherwise, you may want to do a search there
14:54<@Alberth>perk11: changing newgrfs was never supported, you were just lucky not to get major problems
14:55<perk11>I never got any
14:55<perk11>and it was useful
14:55<@Alberth>yeah, you were lucky
14:55<perk11>well, why can't I continue being lucky?
14:56<perk11>isn't the warning enough?
14:56<@Alberth>because you are not the only person playing openttd
14:56<@Alberth>obviously not, otherwise we'd keep the old behavior :p
14:56<perk11>lol
14:57<perk11>some grfs definetely create no problems
14:57<perk11>those which only change graphics
14:57<perk11>for example
14:57<ABCRic>just enable the developer tools
14:58<andythenorth>enable the newgrf developer tools and be prepared for the game going 'boom' :D
14:58<andythenorth>instructions are in ottd wiki
14:58<perk11>ok
14:58<perk11>thank you
15:04<@Alberth>perk11: the program has no way of knowing what changes a newgrf makes
15:11<ABCRic>it could, but no one is willing to do it
15:11<ABCRic>mainly because there's no point
15:11<@Terkhen>how?
15:12<ABCRic>Terkhen: there's always some way to stuff :P
15:12<ABCRic>*to do
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15:18<@Terkhen>from what I know, you can't really determine what callbacks do unless you run all possible combinations, which is not possible to be done in a reasonable time
15:18<ABCRic>like I said, possible, but there's no point
15:19<ABCRic>specially because it would require large amounts of time and work that should be used for other things
15:21<ABCRic>like... cleaning up the flyspray task list?
15:27<@Alberth>is there much stuff to clean? afaik there are mostly feature requests there
15:35<@Terkhen>does anyone else has "too fast" map scrolling on linux? by scrolling just a bit I can get to the other side of a 1024x1024 map
15:35<@Terkhen>and I would like to get more information before digging on this problem
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15:42<@Alberth>works for me
15:43<@Alberth>do you use automagic scrolling when near the edge?
15:43<@Terkhen>no
15:43<@Alberth>ok, just RMB-down scrolling
15:43<frosch123>Terkhen: you are using a vm?
15:44<@Terkhen>no, it's native
15:44<@Alberth>does it behave weird outside OpenTTD?
15:44<@Terkhen>no
15:44<@Alberth>weird :p
15:44<@Terkhen>yes... since I'm using arch I'm guessing it's some new version of a library
15:45<frosch123>works fine for me, both with sdl and allegro
15:45<@Terkhen>which version of sdl?
15:45<@Alberth>libSDL-1.2.so.0 => /usr/lib64/libSDL-1.2.so.0
15:46<@Terkhen>I seem to be running 1.2.24, I'll try compiling with allegro
15:46<frosch123>1.2.14
15:46<frosch123>24 ? i doubt there is such a version
15:46<@Terkhen>sorry, 1.2.14 :)
15:47<@Alberth>SDL-1.2.14-8.fc13.x86_64
15:47<@Alberth>is the package name
15:48<@Terkhen>weird
15:49<frosch123>Terkhen: anyway, i remember fast-scrolling occuring when using a tablet-like mouse with absolute positioning
15:49<frosch123>like on mobile devices, or sometimes also in vms
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15:50<@Terkhen>hmm... I'm using a cheap usb mouse on a physical linux, maybe arch does something strange regarding mouse configuration
15:50<frosch123>ottd takes the difference of the mouse positions for scrolling and then moves the mouse back to the previous position, but for absolute mouse positioning that just fails :p
15:51<@Terkhen>I'll check if it is using absolute mouse positioning somehow
15:52<perk11>Terkhen: and how does scrollng with keyboard work?
15:52<@Alberth>if you use LMB dragging, the mouse moves with the landscape
15:52<@Terkhen>perk11: as expected
15:52<@Terkhen>it moves correctly
15:55<@Terkhen>interesting, it works perfectly with allegro
15:55<@Terkhen>so it's probably an issue with my version of sdl-1.2.14
15:56<@Alberth>looks like it
15:56<@Terkhen>thanks everybody for the advice :)
15:57<@Terkhen>I'll check with a vanilla version of sdl to be sure before blaming arch's sdl
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15:59<ABCRic>Alberth: feature requests need cleaning too :)
16:00<frosch123>ABCRic: no, you can easily filter for them :p
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16:01<@Alberth>ABCRic: We could clean them, but people don't have enough space with just one suggestions forum, they need two apparently
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16:02<frosch123>Alberth: you forgot the wiki
16:02<ABCRic>with cleaning up I met organizing and (maybe) working on them
16:02<frosch123>though i forgot whether there are two or only one list on the wiki :p
16:03<frosch123>ABCRic: what? who does such things? :p
16:03<ABCRic>you do! :D
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16:04<@Alberth>Luckily, I cannot find such things at the wiki :p
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16:07<perk11>why do you want to clean feature requests? what if someone has similar request? he'll just write a comment or vote for the existing one instead of creating a new one
16:08<@Alberth>exactly, that's why they stay available
16:08<perk11>oh will see why was it closed
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16:32<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21930 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Codechange: Remove unused vehicle GetTypeString() functions.
16:33<Eddi|zuHause><ABCRic> Terkhen: there's always some way to stuff :P <-- you should urgently go to a theoretical computer science lesson about decidability
16:35<@Alberth>not if you don't care about minor problems as finite computation time :)
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>holds for countable time as well :p
16:38<@planetmaker>time is finite after all? ;-)
16:38<@planetmaker>damn? and countable?
16:38<ABCRic>make stuff now, worry about minor problems later :D
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if time is quantized, clearly it's countable as well
16:40<@planetmaker>So much for the mightyness / cardinality
16:40<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the question is: is it? ;-)
16:41<@planetmaker>quod est demonstrandum
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>in an unquantized time, you can do _any_ calculation within 2 seconds, if you start with a clock period of 1 second and halve it in each step :p
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16:42<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that's not a property of a continuous set only
16:42<@planetmaker>you can do the same on R and Q. And Q is quantized
16:43<@Alberth>yeah, I should have said finite computation speed :p
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Q is not quantized
16:43<@planetmaker>actually both are continuous. But Q is cardinal, R not
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Q is countable, yes
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16:47<andythenorth>are blacksmith forges countable?
16:48<@Alberth>defintely, they use non-zeno tile space
16:48<@Terkhen>I think so, but I'm not sure about the effort of coding them
16:48<@planetmaker>:-D
16:49<@planetmaker>Terkhen: it may just as well be countable and infinite at the same time ;-)
16:49<@Terkhen>heh :P
16:50<@Alberth>that depends on your unit of effort :)
16:50<@planetmaker>:-P
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16:50<@Alberth>'amount of thought' seems pretty non-countable to me :)
16:51<@Alberth>good night
16:51<@planetmaker>that's why people have so many random, countless thoughs
16:51<@planetmaker>+t
16:51<@planetmaker>have a good night Alberth
16:51<ABCRic>night Alberth
16:51<@planetmaker>And countless pleasant dreams :-)
16:52<@Alberth>and countless non-feasible fantastic ideas for new programs :p
16:52<andythenorth>forge: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=927673#p927673
16:52<@Terkhen>good night Alberth
16:52<@Terkhen>looks nice andythenorth :)
16:53<@Alberth>you do need that white label, andy
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>http://sneezl.com/only-in-russia/ <-- speaking of countless ideas :p
16:54<andythenorth>I could put the white label in the grf :P
16:54<andythenorth>heh
16:54<@Alberth>it looks very nice, but a little too much disguised as a house perhaps
16:54<andythenorth>'toggle labels'
16:54<andythenorth>I'll give it a chimney or such
16:55<andythenorth>it's a town building, there's not much I can do quickly
16:55<andythenorth>it could have a yard
16:55<@Alberth>an arrow "this is not a house" :p
16:55<andythenorth>it used to be two tiles, it could be again
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16:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's missing the horse shoe sign
16:58<andythenorth>heh
16:58<@planetmaker>or if you want the hammer or whatever.
16:58<@planetmaker>It needs *something* to distinguish it from houses slightly
16:59<@planetmaker>though you could do that with the ground tiles like ECS / TAI
17:00<andythenorth>planetmaker: how do you distinguish other town industry?
17:00<@planetmaker>also: the wall around the garden / courtyard: it needs a wide door to allow horses / wagons to pass through
17:00<andythenorth>e.g. store, petrol pump, builders yard
17:00<andythenorth>I've just deleted the wall :)
17:00<@planetmaker>he
17:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth: petrol pump has in invisibility mode a petrol sign
17:01<@planetmaker>at least the only one I know :-P
17:01<@planetmaker>otherwise it's indeed hard
17:02<@planetmaker>the brewery, for example is a bit less critical. It's big enough and its style is discernible
17:02<andythenorth>I am coming to really dislike this forge chain :D
17:03<andythenorth>could just locate it out of town
17:06<@Terkhen>good night
17:06<andythenorth>night
17:07<ABCRic>night Terkhen
17:07<andrew12>anyone want to explain to me why this game is so addicting?
17:07<andrew12>:P
17:08<ABCRic>andrew12: no special reason :)
17:08<@planetmaker>g'night Terkhen :-)
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17:08<@planetmaker>andythenorth: inside the town is quite nice
17:09<@planetmaker>you could force one of the outer town zones, though
17:09<@planetmaker>maybe like 4 or 5
17:09<@planetmaker>for the ingame construction
17:09<DanMacK>Possibly have an open hearth with chimney on the second tile with piles of ore and iron bits about
17:09<andythenorth>DanMacK: do you want to draw that?
17:10<andythenorth>this one is metal -> ENSP / FMSP
17:10<DanMacK>lol
17:10<andythenorth>I need to do a separate ironworks
17:10*DanMacK has to stop making suggestions... lol
17:12<z-MaTRiX_>hi
17:12<z-MaTRiX_>can someone tell me what is a town?
17:12<z-MaTRiX_>"banks can only built in towns"
17:13<z-MaTRiX_>there is a town with 26000 population
17:13<ABCRic>banks must be built over existing houses
17:13<DanMacK>you have to click on a town building if you're building a bank
17:15<z-MaTRiX_>right now clicking every houses in town
17:15<z-MaTRiX_>no luck
17:17<perk111>I never could build a bank too
17:17-!-perk111 is now known as perk11
17:18<andrew12>why does it sometimes only allow me to build "city" airports?
17:18<perk11>because of the year?
17:19<DanMacK>There's a switch to keep the small airports
17:19<andrew12>but why would it even get rid of them? heh
17:19<@Yexo>because it worked that way in ttd
17:19<andrew12>hm
17:19<z-MaTRiX_>ok bank failed
17:20<z-MaTRiX_>;/
17:20<andrew12>how do i make them not go away?
17:20<@Yexo>somewhere in the advanced settings window there is an option "always keep airports"
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX_: savegame or it didn't happen.
17:20<andrew12>Construction => Airports Never Expire
17:20<z-MaTRiX_>ok
17:21<@Yexo>andrew12: yes, that's the one
17:21<andrew12>ty
17:23<andythenorth>DanMacK: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/forge_revised_yatta_2.png
17:23<andythenorth>with a fence around part of it, and some greeble
17:24<andythenorth>and some bigger doors on the building, and a chimney
17:24<andythenorth>= win
17:24<andythenorth>:)
17:24<z-MaTRiX_>http://matrix.z-labor.com/tmp/N_transport_2273-09-05_bankfail.sav
17:24<z-MaTRiX_>attached the snapshot
17:25<z-MaTRiX_>tried to build bank in "funtown"
17:26<perk11>only one allowed per town
17:26<perk11>that's what I've got
17:26<perk11>after trying a bit
17:27<z-MaTRiX_>it writes to me can only built in towns
17:27<perk11>and I could build one in Wrennway-on-sea
17:28<z-MaTRiX_>but yes it is already one in funtown
17:28<andythenorth>good night
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17:28<perk11>also it needs 2 tiles
17:29<ABCRic>g'night
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17:29<z-MaTRiX_>btw im using r21916
17:30<perk11>does it matter?
17:30<perk11>make buildings transparent
17:30<@planetmaker>good night
17:30<perk11>and choose 2 tiles
17:30<perk11>which are on the same level
17:30<perk11>then you will see the "only one per town" message
17:31<perk11>near the airport, for example
17:33<perk11>btw why is ther 1 bank per town limit? this is sure unrealistic
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17:40<__ln__>how well do city walls and railways work together?
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17:55*DanMacK doesn't think there are city walls in OTTD...
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17:59<Wolf01>'night
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18:01<__ln__># Bilbo Baggins, he's only three feet tall
18:01<__ln__># Bilbo Baggins, bravest hobbit of them all
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18:17<z-MaTRiX_>hmhm
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19:16<DoubleYou>how do i install openttd 1.0.5 next to 1.1.0-beta4?
19:16<DoubleYou>it says 'you have a newer version, setup will now exit'
19:17<DoubleYou>but online games in 1.1.0-beta4 are basically inexistent
19:20<Ammler>DoubleYou: use the zip
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>don't use the installer. download the zip
19:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: :-P
19:21<DoubleYou>heh sounds logical :)
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>theoretically you should be able to unpack the installer as well, but using the zip is probably easier ;)
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23:42<andrew12>openttd needs some sort of sandbox mode
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 31 00:00:40 2011