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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-01

---Logopened Tue Feb 01 00:00:40 2011
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01:56<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:43<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21935 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19231): Allow to overbuild road stops which are built over trams.
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05:48<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21936 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp:
05:48<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4457](r19231): Do not remove existing road/tram bits when overbuilding stops of the opposite road type.
05:48<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Change: Build only the required road/tram bits when building stops with drag and drop.
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06:16<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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06:28<guyht>I am looking to host a dedicated openttd server on an amazon ec2 instance. Has anyone had experience doing this?
06:29<andrew12>it'd be the same as hosting it on any other linux box
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06:38<Rubidium>given they say Ubuntu runs on EC2 I reckon andrew12's right
06:39<andrew12>debian can
06:39<andrew12>but honestly ec2 is usually very expensive compared to a vps
06:39<andrew12>a regular vps, at least
06:39<Rubidium>don't you pay for used CPU with EC2?
06:40<andrew12>no idea
06:40<andrew12>afaik you get what you pay for
06:42<Rubidium>given that like 5 of 6 dedicated servers are without players they'd be basically idling anyway
06:42<andrew12>well in that case ec2 is better
06:42<andrew12>because you can shut it off and you dont have to pay
06:44<guyht>It's for a private game
06:45<guyht>But actually I suppose we could all hook up to an empty dedicated server
06:45<@planetmaker>if you just want a private game and meet concurrently you don't need a dedicated server anyway
06:46<guyht>I know, but one of us has an ec2 instance and thought we could put it to use
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06:48<andrew12>guyht: why not just have one of you host it on your pc? :p
06:49<guyht>That is the alternative, but so far we have been having router problems
06:50<guyht>also, i like the idea of having a dedicated host
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06:53<blathijs>andrew12: planetmaker: You're skipping over the fact that it's totally cool to use EC2 to run OpenTTD, regardless of whether it is a "good" solution at all ;-p
06:53<guyht>That, of course, is the other reason :D
06:53<andrew12>how is that "cool"?
06:53<@planetmaker>hehe @ blathijs :-)
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06:59<guyht_>Going to give it a go. Thanks for the input.
06:59<blathijs>andrew12: Because it's a new and non-standard use of both EC2 and the OpenTTD dedicated server? :-)
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07:17<DanMacK>Hey all
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09:02*ZirconiumX shouldn't be here - but is
09:06<@SmatZ>why you shouldn't be here?
09:07*ZirconiumX *should* be at school - and if I was I wouldn't be here
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09:07<ZirconiumX>I'm off school ill
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09:57<welshdragon>are savegames made with older patched builds of OpenTTD compatible with a newer patched build? (i.e. IS2.1.1 saves will load with the Departure Boards patch)
10:01<Rubidium>depends on the patch, but general rule of thumb: try it
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10:17<welshdragon>ta Rubidium, will give it a shot later :P
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>welshdragon: unless it's a properly maintained patchpack, the answer is usually no
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>it CAN be done, but is usually a bit of work, so most patch maintainers don't bother
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10:46<Ammler>afaik, none since MiniIN
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>i think Chill's Patch Pack did implement a MiniIN-style system
11:06<Rubidium>the source of it seems to support that it at least tries to do that
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11:10<Troy_>I have a comment on the v. 1.10
11:10<@Terkhen>hi Troy_
11:11<__ln__>all prepare for a comment
11:11<Troy_>the stations can now be named after the industries they in the neighbourhood with
11:11<Troy_>so a station built in the vicinity of a coal mine, will get the name <city> Coal Mine
11:11<Troy_>there can be more coal mines in a city area
11:12<V453000>that is done by the newgrf "Station name from nearby industries"
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11:12<Troy_>So the next one will be just normally "<city> Heights"
11:12<Troy_>yeah, im just saying its not complete in that way
11:12<V453000>I guess, I do not know
11:12<V453000>just try it?
11:12<Troy_>I've noticed playin on the welcome server
11:13<V453000>yes, there is that newgrf
11:13<Troy_>after the first station in a city area, you have to manually change it to have the word "coal" in or something
11:13<Troy_>I know
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11:14<Troy_>but I think its weird if that only counts for one industry thingy in a city area
11:14<@planetmaker>station names must be uniq
11:14<Troy_>that I know
11:15<Troy_>so there might be two problems:
11:15<Troy_>the station wont get the name, because the station name must be unique
11:15<Troy_>or the name is only assigned to one station in one city area
11:16<@planetmaker>yes, but where is there even one problem?
11:16<Troy_>there is not a real problem, only a subjective
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11:17<Troy_>If I want to have all my stations near coal mines to be named <city> Coal mine
11:17<Troy_>and one is just named <city> Heights or something
11:17<Troy_>than -you could say- what is the use of the newgrf if it isnt complete
11:17<V453000>yes simply because they cannot have 2 same names
11:17<Troy_>I get that
11:18<Troy_>so dont give them the same name
11:18<V453000>then write to the author to change it
11:18<Rubidium>he can't
11:18<Troy_>I can write
11:18<Troy_>or cant the author change it?
11:18<V453000>:) even so
11:18<Rubidium>the author can't change it
11:18<Rubidium>an industry has only one name
11:18<Troy_>a solution might be to just add a number to next coal mine in the city area
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11:19<Rubidium>the other solution would be to remove the option to build multiple industries in the same town
11:19<Troy_>yes, but that would be senseles imo
11:20<V453000>you can still name the mines manually
11:20<Rubidium>it's the easiest solution
11:20<Troy_>yes, yes
11:21<Troy_>but you would have to change the settings just to avoid a newgrf's inability to add a number behind a station
11:21<Troy_>So we have a newgrf, it gives the station the name of the industry in its direct vicinity
11:21<Troy_>but only if there is only one in the city aread
11:22<Troy_>after that it reverts to older mechanisms of naming stations
11:22<V453000>how does that help?
11:22<Troy_>I think that's a very incomplete newgrf
11:22<Troy_>that is the situation now
11:22<V453000>that would only make you rename all of the stations instead of renaming all but one
11:22<Troy_>how does what help?
11:23<@Terkhen>what if someone prefers to have different names for the stations?
11:24<V453000>Troy_: that there are 2 mines near one town does not mean you will connect both of them
11:24<@Terkhen>(Town) Coal Mine #3 sounds boring
11:24<V453000>if you disabled the newgrf naming just because there are 2, it would in many cases just disable it without a need
11:24<Troy_>@terkhen, perhaps it does, but what is the sense of naming it to an industry in the neighbourhood, if you can only do it once per city
11:25<V453000>because it is better than nothing?
11:25<@Terkhen>because usually you don't have more than a single industry of the same type near a town
11:25<Troy_>okay, it is better than nothing, but still
11:25<Troy_>I dont have a real problem with it
11:25<Troy_>just making a comment
11:26<Troy_>@Terkhen, dont be to sure about that
11:26<V453000>Troy_: just get over it that it works that way
11:26<Troy_>the coop company on the stable has a number of #3,#4 stations
11:27<@Terkhen>in the cases I have more than a single industry in the same town, I prefer to have different names for them
11:27<V453000>and I refuse to have names like #1 in the end of the name, and have any other random names instead :)
11:27<Troy_>yes, but an <industry>#1 is a different name from <industry>#2
11:28<@Terkhen>I know they are different, but I hope you understand what I mean :)
11:29<Troy_>yes, you'd rather have x coal mine and x heights than x coal mine and x coal mine#2
11:30<Troy_>you said stations need to have different names?
11:31<Troy_>Im watching the stable now as a spectator (bad connection on my side prevents me from joining a comp)
11:32<Troy_>and it looks like there are two of the same names, though one is truck station and another a train station
11:34<+glx>isn't it the same station ?
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11:51<Mazur>There is an error in PG: Country Stations. Freight Station oriented NS is actually the image of Passenger Station.
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13:11<z-MaTRiX_>aliens are illegal?
13:12<Prof_Frink>If they violate the articles of the Shadow Proclamation
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13:16<@planetmaker>well. Ever played UFO?
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13:18<IchGuckLive>Hi all, i got another question im in the desert, if i delever lets say 5trainloads of water per month to a town without watertower ,WILL it build one at its own ?
13:18<V453000>since it does not accept water, it will not
13:18<@Alberth>how can you deliver water without water tower?
13:19<@Alberth>it may build one, but not because you transport cargo
13:19<IchGuckLive>i can give the train unload and leave without loading
13:19<V453000>do you understand that the town has no means how to accept the water? :)
13:19<@Alberth>so you have a very filled station :)
13:20<IchGuckLive>i did 1 load to the town and it wars still there if the train arived the second time
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13:20<@Alberth>yes, the town cannot accept it, so it sits at your station until it evaporates
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13:21<IchGuckLive>its slightly desapearing gallon by gallon
13:21<@Alberth>basically, "unload and no loading" means you throw it out of the train without caring whether the destination wants it."
13:22<@Alberth>all cargo disappears after some time
13:23<@Alberth>a much more effective strategy is to build a water tower for the town first :)
13:23<IchGuckLive>its so expensive to build one
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13:24<IchGuckLive>i think i will build a Lumber mill insted thats ,good for more money
13:24<@Alberth>you seem to have money enough, given that you are transporting cargo you don't get paid for :)
13:26<IchGuckLive>i will Alberth
13:27<IchGuckLive>the News info Messages shoudt be stored in a file and reloadet when the game is started ,if i play 5min on friday and then 10min on monday the masseges are not there
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13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r21937 /trunk/src/lang/turkish.txt:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: turkish - 32 changes by leventpasha
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14:00<@planetmaker>moin andythenorth
14:00*Alberth waves hello to andy
14:00<andythenorth>@seen danmack
14:00<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 4 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <DanMacK> howdy
14:01<andythenorth>he came, he went
14:01<andythenorth>he conquered
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14:01<@Alberth>you missed him by 40 minutes
14:02<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:03*andythenorth has been forging new FIRS features :P
14:03<andythenorth>and shipping some things in FISH
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14:04<andythenorth>I was hoping for a nice flame war in the 'single items' thread :(
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14:17<@planetmaker>I drew you some coal-loaded river boat, andythenorth ;-)
14:17<andythenorth>I seed it :)
14:18<andythenorth>do you want to do the intermediate loading stage?
14:18<@planetmaker>hm.. draw drew drawn is wrong?
14:18<andythenorth>drew is fine
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14:18<andythenorth>and 'wrong' is a flexible concept in english
14:18*andythenorth is reading indian news websites
14:18<@planetmaker>I guess intermediate is easy
14:19<andythenorth>they're not difficult :)
14:19<@planetmaker>it just needs copy & paste of a few rectangles
14:19<andythenorth>it just takes work
14:19<@planetmaker>which this was actually, too
14:19<@planetmaker>i copied the coal from opengfx+trains and pasted it ;-)
14:19<andythenorth>once one set is done, the other bulk cargos just need 'fill'
14:19<andythenorth>personally I am a big fan of the HEQS bulk cargos
14:19<andythenorth>can't think why :P
14:20<@planetmaker>they're smaller than train bulk cargo ;-)
14:20<@planetmaker>if you want "source" images I can only give you gimp files, though
14:20<@planetmaker>photoshop won't install here
14:20<andythenorth>are they layered?
14:20<andythenorth>I can diff if needed
14:21<@planetmaker>well, when I use that feature: yes ;-)
14:21<@planetmaker>I didn't think of it this noon
14:21<andythenorth>if they're layered, then layered png might work as interchange format
14:22<andythenorth>assuming you want to take on this task :)
14:22<andythenorth>otherwise me or dan will get to it eventually
14:22<andythenorth>I have to rearrange sprite sheets and such to more logically support it
14:22<@planetmaker>well. I can give you it in gimp file format. Not sure png can be layered or how
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15:33*andythenorth does ponder
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15:37<@Alberth>No worries, I am quite sure you exist
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15:41<andythenorth>why is a forge a less efficient user of metal than a machine shop?
15:41<supermop_>because it is essentially a 3000 year old technology?
15:42<andythenorth>I'm sold
15:42<Hirundo>I'd guess, a forge is mostly a less efficient user of time
15:42<andythenorth>I have to include them in FIRS, but there needs to be a reason to stop using them
15:42*planetmaker buys andythenorth
15:42<Rubidium>I'd argue that we're getting less efficient with resources lately
15:43<Hirundo>It would be 'realistic' to limit forge production, but that'd be against the general idea of FIRS
15:44<andythenorth>I'd have to add a setting
15:44<andythenorth>'turn off forge stockpiling' :P
15:45<Rubidium>apparantly there is over 10.000 tonnes of "bad" quality/unsold cookies/cakes/bread fed to animals a week in the NL
15:45<andythenorth>maybe I break FIRS into individual industries
15:45<andythenorth>which can be used as industry, or new object
15:45<andythenorth>and the cargos can also be turned on and off at will
15:46<Hirundo>Mind that (mere mortal) users may fear the power of choice
15:46<andythenorth>well it might end the war?
15:46<Rubidium>that's just more than half a kilogram per person per week of waste that didn't need to be waste
15:46<Rubidium>just because the broken percentage of a batch of cookies was too high or something stupid
15:47<supermop_>but one could argue that those animals need to eat something, and reusing the waste from human food reduces the amount of food that must be grown just for the animals
15:48<Rubidium>when it was still done by the backer it might be slightly less efficient with resources to create a cookie, but they wouldn't ditch whole batches
15:48<Rubidium>they'd just remove the broken cookies and eat them theirselves
15:49<Rubidium>supermop_: true, they need to eat something... but really... they already get too much
15:49<Hirundo>Apparently, the consumers want every piece of chicken to be exactly like every other piece of chicken
15:50<Rubidium>e.g. we import beef from Africa so we can mix it with "our" beef so you can sell it as "lean" ground beef
15:50<supermop_>then buy free range chicken instead to remove the incentive for chicken farmers to overfeed factory farm chickens
15:50<@planetmaker>hm... looking at many title game suggestions I have the feeling that the time spent on it is not much - luckily there are the bright exceptions
15:50<Hirundo>And packs of cookies should not contain too many broken ones, because we don't like broken cookies although they taste the same
15:50<supermop_>i mean
15:51<Rubidium>I rarely eat chicken, so that's not the problem
15:51<supermop_>some customers who need to use the cookies in a public setting might throw away any broken cookies they receive
15:51<supermop_>better that they go to a use than a landfill
15:53<Rubidium>but there'll still be broken cookies in the packets, just (possibly) a few less
15:53<@Alberth>people also buy too much at the groceries, there is an insane amount of food thrown away in that way
16:04<supermop_>really the best thing you can do is be responsible with your own consumption...
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16:26<andythenorth>'ironworks' or 'iron works' ?
16:26<@Alberth>the 2nd happens when the sun shines on iron, I think
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17:05<andythenorth>iron works is an early FIRS industry. Iron ore in = very small amount of metal out
17:05<andythenorth>should I make it locate near iron ore mines?
17:05<andythenorth>realistic + helpful for gameplay
17:13<supermop_>i think it makes a lot of sense for the early industries
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17:20<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21938 /trunk/src/vehicle_base.h: -Codechange: AfterLoadGame() is no longer friend of Vehicle.
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>"why can't we just stay friends?"
17:22<andythenorth>iron works now colocates with iron ore mines :)
17:22<andythenorth>maybe forests + sawmills should do same :P
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the earlier the game, the more local should be the economy cycle
17:23<andythenorth>easy to say :D
17:23<andythenorth>harder to implement :D
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that means mostly that there should be many small industries, not few big ones
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17:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you look at medieval cities, each one basically has each of the "industries"
17:25<andythenorth>but then later gameplay is very boring
17:25<andythenorth>bearing in mind there's no industry closure
17:25<andythenorth>and I can't cripple the early industries too much
17:26*andythenorth wonders about revisiting industry closure
17:27<andythenorth>closure might be fun
17:27<z-MaTRiX_>i see nightlife
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, but not random closure
17:28<andythenorth>I was thinking of random closures every now and then
17:28<andythenorth>'sorry your industry failed'
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: more like: all smithing works close down if a steel mill opens in the region
17:28<andythenorth>yeah that's probably fairer
17:28<andythenorth>that can be done in nfo (at a stretch)
17:29<andythenorth>I'd rather see some kind of scripting language handle that
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>what is your definition of "night"?
17:29<andythenorth>AI equivalent - but running through game as a kind of master controller
17:29<z-MaTRiX_>how about transporting oil to the other side of the map, if an oil refinery opens near the oilrig ?
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: scenario scripting, yes.
17:30<andythenorth>I can see it being a nightmare :P
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: start with something easy. a script can open a window with custom text and a few more or less customisable buttons ;)
17:30<andythenorth>if it also was allowed to control industry production etc
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>like "this is the tutorial game, if you want to skip the instructions and just want to play around, click "cancel""
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17:32<andythenorth>one day we'll figure it out
17:32<andythenorth>and many days later, we might even code it :P
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17:32<andythenorth>I'm not sure about colocating too many industries
17:33<andythenorth>i.e. second in chain tries to build near first in chain
17:33<andythenorth>it makes it a bit...easy
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: keep in mind that besides ships you only have small horse carriages
17:37<andythenorth>and horse tramways (maybe)
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17:37<andythenorth>I'll consider it, but it needs a bit of thought
17:39<andythenorth>good night :)
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18:08<@Terkhen>good night
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18:36<z-MaTRiX_>testing new realtime vanilla kernel
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18:37<__ln__>i didn't know openttd has a kernel
18:37*planetmaker wonders whether he really knows what 'real time' refers to and offers - and how he wants to make use of it
18:38<ccfreak2k>RTOS perhaps.
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's always the kiddies who think "oh, 'real time', it must be really fast!"
18:41<@planetmaker>quite not so ;-)
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19:00<z-MaTRiX_>actually im taking adventage of it
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19:02<z-MaTRiX_>and yes its faster in response in many cases
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19:11<@planetmaker>RT is not about fast response either ;-)
19:11<@planetmaker>it's rather about accuracy of timing
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19:14<z-MaTRiX_>and preemtion
19:15<z-MaTRiX_>why does control click on a train view following goes so sadly?
19:15<z-MaTRiX_>though i can rightclick scroll and follow the train smooth
19:15<z-MaTRiX_>with mouse
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>likely scrolling knows that it can copy most of the area, while train movement has to redraw the complete window
19:18<z-MaTRiX_>:( oh
19:19<z-MaTRiX_>rt preemtion is a must for cnc machine control
19:19<z-MaTRiX_>because of the timing accuracy
19:20<z-MaTRiX_>and for gapless audio too
19:20<z-MaTRiX_>planetmaker: so using an rt kernel will not improve response time ?
19:21<@planetmaker>not in general
19:21<z-MaTRiX_>lets say you have a firefox hung and eating all cpu time
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX_: he didn't say it doesn't have its advantages
19:21<@planetmaker>it's not about response time. It's about making sure that a certain process gets control guaranteed at a given time
19:21<z-MaTRiX_>so its about response time too no?
19:22<@planetmaker>but a RT system won't do that either if you put too much load on it
19:22<z-MaTRiX_>if we define response as i click on window and waiting it to be selected
19:22<@planetmaker>then it will fail just as well
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX_: in certain situations it might improve response time, but on average, it will be slower
19:23<@planetmaker>indeed. Due to scheduling overhead
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX_: like every situation where firefox does not eat 100% of your cpu
19:24<z-MaTRiX_>ack that
19:24<z-MaTRiX_>willing to ogive 9% cpu time for that special case
19:25<z-MaTRiX_>ok closer to 5%
19:27<@planetmaker>RT IMHO only makes sense in things like - otherwise it's mostly a toy and waste of electricity
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19:28<z-MaTRiX_>for cnc control a 666MHz intel p3 is fair
19:30<@planetmaker>but not for RT synchronization of two 2000fps camera heads with an 32-channel analogue IO and a 32 channel digital IO card ;-)
19:31<z-MaTRiX_>for that i would go for some FPGA, or a new amd cpu
19:31<@planetmaker>where one really needs to know what happens _concurrently_
19:31<@planetmaker>more work than worth the effort.
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 02 00:00:43 2011