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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-03

---Logopened Thu Feb 03 00:00:41 2011
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02:40<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:57<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: interesting, that bug was fixed at least once in the past
02:58<@SmatZ>@commit 12131
02:58<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by smatz :: r12131 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2008-02-13 16:49:25 UTC)
02:58<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Fix (r3374): with mammoth trains disabled, maximum train length was limited to 9
02:58<@SmatZ>^^^ Eddi|zuHause :) I suppose you are using more recent version than r12131
03:02<@SmatZ>hmm the message "Train too long" misses a predicate (verb)
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03:03<@Terkhen>... train is too long
03:04<@SmatZ>I would almost vote for removing mammoth_trains as well :P
03:04<Rubidium>"... site unsuitable"? ;)
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03:04<Rubidium>"... too high"
03:05<Rubidium>"... too many towns"
03:05<Rubidium>so it's missing verbs all around
03:05<@Terkhen>SmatZ: introduce a bug on them and count the revisions until someone notices
03:06<@SmatZ>Terkhen: FS#4461 :)
03:06<@SmatZ>I wonder for how long it has been broken
03:07*Rubidium would argue FS#4462 is a NewGRF bug
03:07<Rubidium>or otherwise a duplicate of FS#3569
03:08<@SmatZ>interestingly, FS#4462 was discussed here few days ago
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04:06<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>what linux do you use ?
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04:16<V453000>hi pm :)
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04:22<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker and Wolf01
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05:46<Tennel>hello, how do i load a scenario into a dedicated server?
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05:50<@planetmaker>now, that was... short quick and nice :-)
05:50<halogen>I'd rather have seen that drawn out for hours since I have nothing better to do.
05:51<@planetmaker>V453000: the screenshot you show in the titlegame thread will IIRC only look that way if you play with newgrf which support 2CC
05:51<V453000>true :) sorry
05:51<V453000>didnt realize that
05:51<V453000>thanks ;)
05:51<@planetmaker>base sets only have 1CC ;-)
05:51<@planetmaker>no problem
05:52<V453000>yes, I know, it just didnt hit me :P
05:56<@planetmaker>are you going to correct it?
05:57<V453000>was my fault :p
06:00<V453000>I just do not like to make the savegame look like a parrot, shining with all the colous together
06:02<@planetmaker>well. Still I think showing more than one company is a good thing. No need for 15 companies, though
06:02<@planetmaker>Like one could provide heli services for the ultra rich and valuables. The other the commuter for the common people. Or so
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06:05<Tennel>hi, i tried loading the scenario with the -g parameter, but the server doesn't load it. Do i have to change some settings in the config file?
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06:08<@planetmaker>did you give the proper path?
06:08<Tennel>i also tried to load it via rcon with "rcon <pwd> load scenario/<myscenario>.scn" but, it schows me the help of the load cmd
06:08<@planetmaker>you might need ../scenario/file.scn
06:09<Tennel>yes i tried with full path
06:09<Tennel>why ..
06:09<Tennel>nope, doesn't work
06:09<@planetmaker>you can always rename it to a normal savegame and try then.
06:10<Tennel>but there's an .id and a .title file
06:11<Tennel>what is the normal way to load a scenario into a dedicated server, without gui?
06:12<@planetmaker>openttd knows not nor reads nor creates any .id nor .title files
06:12<@planetmaker>I always upload only savegames which I load
06:14<Tennel>i downloaded ingame content, and there are these files
06:14<Tennel>i don't know
06:15<@planetmaker>they're not from openttd
06:16<Tennel>i tried to rename it, to 123.sav, openttd says no file or dir
06:18<@planetmaker>then you don't give the proper path
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06:18<@planetmaker>rcon pwd will tell you where it (currently) searches
06:20<Tennel>ok, i try
06:20<Tennel>cya l8er
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06:25<V453000>pm: they still do stop in red stations though :P
06:26<V453000>mahh, just tried to change coulours and was terrified by the sight :D
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07:12<Tennel>ok, i've tried a lot of things to open a scenario on a dedicated server, nothing worked.
07:13<Ammler>Tennel: rename the scn to sav
07:13<Tennel>doesn't wokr
07:13<Ammler>then paste the error
07:14<Wolf01>can you load it in singleplayer?
07:14<Tennel>no error, openttd just load a random map instead
07:14<Ammler>how do you load the save on your server?
07:15<Tennel>via -g parameter and with "rcon <pwd> "load <path>""
07:15<Ammler>so which?
07:15<Ammler>no, I mean, do you use -g or rcon?
07:16<Ammler>I quite much dislike this new feature, where it starts a random game, when the loading doesn't work
07:16<Tennel>yep, me too
07:17<@planetmaker>Tennel: does the server have all required newgrfs?
07:17<Tennel>hmm, this could be the point
07:17<Tennel>i will try that
07:17<Ammler>but that would show a error
07:17<@planetmaker>not loading a map is usually a clear indicator that one is missing.
07:18<Tennel>ok, i'll report later
07:19<Tennel>how can i find out, which are required
07:19<@planetmaker>Tennel: that scenario has a plethora of newgrfs
07:20<@planetmaker>And I don't have all of them...
07:20<Ammler> <-- buggy
07:20<@planetmaker>and badly configured, too
07:21<@planetmaker>hm, acutally I have all. Just badly configured newgrf list
07:21<@planetmaker>and settings
07:21<Ammler>if you define a wrong path, it does start a random game but then exits because of the failed save?
07:25<Rubidium>Ammler: yes; failure to load is only checked after a fallback has been loaded
07:25<Tennel>ok, thx for the informations, i will not run scenarios anymore :)
07:25<Rubidium>that way the "state" of loading a savegame is always the same: there is a valid game state
07:26<Rubidium>instead of some invalid state after which all places that try to load a savegame must check what to do on failure, i.e. exit or load another game, or ...
07:27<@planetmaker>Tennel: 'scenario' is just another file extension. Otherwise it's a normal savegame.
07:27<@planetmaker>So... just use a normal savegame, upload it and load it.
07:28<Tennel>and activate the newgrfs
07:28<@planetmaker>then you're save and you could have made sure (locally) that the game is ok
07:28<@planetmaker>of course your server has to have all newgrfs involved. sure
07:28<Tennel>i will try that, if i have more time
07:28<@planetmaker>just scp your newgrf folder to the server ;-)
07:29<Tennel>thx a lot
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09:00<@planetmaker>does anyone have a game for me with MANY airplanes, but no airplane NewGRF?
09:01<@Terkhen>can't you use a game with a lot of wrightAIs?
09:02<@planetmaker>that's probably the 2nd option. But I'm not sure whether they build all kinds of planes, too
09:02<@Terkhen>probably not, you could mend that a bit adding chopper AI
09:02<dihedral>you could ask luukland, as his servers are the only ones that allow planes
09:03<@planetmaker>:-) Or I'll build a airport for each plane and see how it goes :-)
09:03<@planetmaker>I need them for alignment purposes
09:03<Ammler>make a .stable with planes only :-P
09:04<@planetmaker>And I could use an alignment template for arbitrarily-sized planes :-P
09:06<@planetmaker>I can sensibly continue with the rail wagons only when I have correct colours ;-)
09:07<@planetmaker>Looks like I already commited bad colours :S
09:07<@planetmaker>testing with blue CC didn't prove too well for this ;-)
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09:47<@planetmaker>hm, when is the broken plimp shown?
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11:36<@planetmaker> and <-- obviously bounding boxes are... bad... why, though?
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11:39<dihedral>bounding box and plane on a different level?
11:40<@planetmaker>rather x and y offset
11:41<@planetmaker>by actually seemingly what I give as offset in the real sprite.
11:41<@peter1138>What's the problem?
11:41<@planetmaker>the bounding boxes don't surround the planes when in flight
11:42<@planetmaker>nor actually on the ground
11:45<@planetmaker>hm... the bounding box size changes upon landing... from too large to too small
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11:56<@Belugas>maybe because it changes sprites?
11:58<@planetmaker>base set planes don't change sprites
11:58<@planetmaker>there's only 8 views and when landing orientation doesn't change
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think i never have seen dihedral's real name before...
12:04<@planetmaker>errm... so?
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12:05<@planetmaker>aren't our nicks our 'real names' here?
12:06<@planetmaker>and aren't all of us 20-year old male geeks? :-P
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>for large values of "20" ;)
12:06<@planetmaker>2sigma is about 40 ,I guess
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12:08<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, you have not? it's in bugs. too
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: yes, that's where i just saw it
12:08<dihedral>and my /whois shows it too
12:08<dihedral>and my domain
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i don't usually /whois people ;)
12:09<dihedral>but i would get slightly worried if you were so keen to find out what my real name was :-D
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's displayed when you hover over the nicklist, too
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not. i just didn't recognize the name as "known"
12:10<@planetmaker>Eddi meet dih. dih meet Eddi ;-)
12:11<@planetmaker>and hit the road, drive 500km and buy eachother a beer :-P
12:12<@planetmaker>sorry for the highlight :-P
12:12<XeryusTC>beer \o/
12:13<@peter1138>bet you can't guess my name
12:13<@peter1138>that's not my name!
12:13<Prof_Frink><@beer1138> that's not my name!
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i have also not met dihedral either.
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138/Prof_Frink: well, it's a simple consonant-substitution ;)
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>leave out the t and switch p for b ;)
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>britain is not part of the schengen-treaty, so you need a passport to get there?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>i actually was in Schengen once.
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's a really tiny town, and half of the area is dedicated as a memorial place for the location the ship docked when first signing the treaty :p
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13:28<andythenorth>electricity: the suggestion that won't die
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>there are at least half a dozen suggestions of that kind :p
13:30<andythenorth>some less stupid than others :P
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>what? like assembling road vehicles like trains? :p
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>hm... merging wikis doesn't sound like a very bright idea...
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13:35<supermop>I don't think electricity is necessarily inappropriate for OTTD, but most of the proposals thusfar I cannot get behind,
13:36<supermop>afterall, what private transport company also runs the electric utilities?
13:37<supermop>(actually there are probably a few, but that seems like a case of exceptions that prove the rule)
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>historically, creating an electrified tram network is actually the first time that many cities got electricity the first time
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>-the first time
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>so the order is: a tram network is planned, a power station is built to supply the tram network, some of the power is diverted to the houses near the tram network.
13:44<@Alberth>let's build a power plant near every city with a tram :p
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r21950 /trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>having power stations have a feedback on your own vehicles (speed or cost) is silly
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14:01<@Belugas>and connect the cities to the water pumps, themselves connected to the electric circuits!
14:04<@Alberth>underground pipes
14:06<@Alberth>not good for tycoons :(
14:08<@Belugas>indeed not. request will fly afterward : I WANT TO SEE MY PIPES!!!! Show ME MY PIPES!!!!
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14:12<@Alberth>we need an 'underground view' :p
14:26<@Belugas>we do!
14:26<@Belugas>and a new map array
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>and signals on bridges!
14:26<@Belugas>thing is, i am really starting to believe it can be done :S
14:26<@Belugas>that too Eddi|zuHause
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14:29<dihedral>if you turn your screen off you get a pretty good view of what the map must look like from the underground :-D
14:31<Prof_Frink>dihedral: Hmm, April Fools' release?
14:32<andythenorth>why does electricity annoy me so much now?
14:32<Prof_Frink>Because you pissed on the electric fence?
14:33<@Belugas>maybe becasue it's static from a picture point of view?
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14:35*andythenorth should drink less black coffee and eat more lunch
14:35<@Terkhen>you have taken part on too many discussions about it? :)
14:35<andythenorth>it's like old old news
14:35<andythenorth>connecting up a power grid is stupid and boring
14:35<andythenorth>having to generate power for your trains is even dumber
14:36<@Alberth>and not original, simcity already did that :)
14:36<andythenorth>using electricity for town growth and maybe industry production is sane
14:36<andythenorth>and would be possible with newgrf TownControl
14:36<andythenorth>but I don't need the wires and the physics :P
14:56<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>what linux do all use?
14:56<@Alberth>all is not here atm
14:57<@Alberth>but the usual suspects, suse, debian, red hat, ubuntu
14:59<@Alberth>and Mac uses a BSD variant iirc
14:59<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>with reversed order?
14:59<@Alberth>reversed order?
14:59<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>so ubuntu is the most user-friendly?
15:00<@Alberth>depends on your idea of what user-friendly actually means
15:00<Prof_Frink>Ubuntu is most ubuntu-user friendly.
15:01<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>what about centos ?
15:01<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>and gentoo
15:01<@Alberth>as platform for running programs, ubuntu probably works nicely
15:01<@Alberth>centos is RHEL, oriented for servers. Extremely conservative in updating
15:02<__ln__>Alberth: yet it does update, unlike Ubuntu
15:02<Prof_Frink>Gentoo is... gentoo.
15:02<@Alberth>ie they have Python 2.4, which is from 2006
15:03<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>you mean heavy search for security bugs before updates? :)
15:03<@Alberth>no, they fix security, but not otherwise
15:04<@Alberth>if you download your average open source linux program as source, you will have a hard time getting it too run, as your software is too old
15:05<@Alberth>fedora is the other end of RH, quite bleeding edge, stuff may break, etc
15:06<@Alberth>__ln__: don't know about ubuntu, I tend to avoid it
15:08<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>btw tried ubuntu about 9 month ago, install said "unknown error occoured during install, exiting..."
15:08*Terkhen uses arch
15:09<Prof_Frink>There's always one...
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>err... apparently we now have a version "1.10-4 beta" :p
15:17<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>yes tried fedora too
15:17<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>well was quite bleeding
15:18<dihedral>i was thinking about arch - decided against gentoo though - they have too many internal battles :-P
15:18<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>stability suffers
15:18<dihedral>z-MaTRiX_serverdropped, stability is not just something the distribution brings with it, it is also what the admin does with it
15:19<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>like opening an xmms or something and plaxing mp3
15:19<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>and starting a web browser
15:20<dihedral>more like which libraries are used, where does the user mangle with things and with which things
15:20<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>the fedora i tried failed these
15:20<dihedral>which config files does the user have to touch, etc.
15:20<dihedral>note the word 'user' :-P
15:21<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>should a system hang or crash if a user touches any config files it can?
15:22<dihedral>mangle as root and you can do everything
15:22<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>but as user
15:22<dihedral>sudo counts as root :-P
15:23<dihedral>installing packages from untrusted sources
15:23<@Terkhen>if the user has sudo permissions then he can break almost anything :)
15:23<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>i think this is like firefox hanging after loading data from the internet...
15:23<@Alberth>Terkhen: you can safely drop "almost" there :)
15:24<dihedral>Alberth, hardened kernel? :-D
15:24<dihedral>i knew a guy - he'd even give you root access, you could not do a thing :-D
15:24<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>i knew one too
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15:25<dihedral>the guy i mean is in pen-testing ;-) i doubt he's behind what you know
15:25<dihedral>anyhow - looks like you are after a new distribution then, ey?
15:26<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>i have an old system currently and was thinking about upgrading
15:26<dihedral>that eliminates gentoo :-P
15:26<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>latest kernel wont compile anymore
15:26<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>so system is outdated
15:27<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX_serverdropped: I actually think that your nick does not need to reflect neither your registration status with IRC nor your server status nor your awake status nor... whatever
15:27<@planetmaker>In any case it breaks my layout
15:27<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>was thinking about server dropped connection
15:27<dihedral>planetmaker, there is an easy way around that :-D
15:27<dihedral>and you have access to more easy ways than me :-P
15:27<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>all other connections remain unaffected
15:27<@planetmaker>I was thinking about that easy way, yes :-P
15:28<@planetmaker>no, not that way
15:28<dihedral>i love it when planetmaker gets the gist of what i mean :-P
15:28<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>lasttime i set unidentified but thinking about something new
15:29<dihedral>z-MaTRiX_serverdropped, you should weigh different aspects of the distributions and how important they are to you
15:29-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
15:29<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX_serverdropped: but that's of absolutely no interest to the others here
15:29-!-LordAro [] has joined #openttd
15:29*dihedral agrees with pm
15:29<z-MaTRiX_serverdropped>ah ok
15:29<Prof_Frink>Or just play with some LiveCDs and use whichever one has the nices colour scheme.
15:29-!-z-MaTRiX_serverdropped is now known as z-matrix
15:30<@planetmaker>the only thing we need to know is that it's you ;-)
15:30-!-z-matrix is now known as Guest118
15:30<dihedral>i thought it was a new guy before
15:30<Guest118>ihave nice nick now
15:30<dihedral>and i have an ignore on Guest
15:30<@planetmaker>yep :-P
15:31<dihedral>actually i do not, but i think i like the idea
15:31-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:31<@Terkhen>heh :D
15:31<dihedral>ignore Guest\d+
15:32<Guest118>load average: 3.21, 2.88, 2.74
15:32<Guest118>sha512sum from dvd ;/
15:32<Guest118>like if dma was nowhere
15:34<dihedral>what's your iowait like?
15:35-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
15:35<Guest118>244.12 blockread/s on device
15:36<dihedral>happens :-)
15:36<Guest118>btw its centos 5.5 dvd 1
15:37<@Alberth>like the data affects your CD speed :p
15:37<Guest118>was thinmkingabout many small files
15:37-!-Biolunar [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:38<Guest118>same was much fatser from hdd
15:39<Guest118>should i not care reading all files one-by-one and read as iso, then mount and sum in /tmp ?
15:39<Guest118>the purpose would be data verification after writing
15:39<dihedral>i have not burnt a cd/dvd in a long time :-P
15:40<Guest118>i like it in console
15:40<dihedral>yes, but i'd especially not burn just for the 'likes' of it :-D
15:40<Guest118>sure i need an install dvd right now
15:41<dihedral>usb stick :-)
15:41-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:41<Guest118>5GB ;<
15:41<Guest118>and i dont have any
15:42<dihedral>well - if you want centos 5.5 that is your choice :)
15:42<dihedral>6 is being expected ;-)
15:42<Guest118>already used redhat
15:42<Guest118>and liked it
15:42<Guest118>was stable
15:42<Guest118>(its for work)
15:43-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
15:43<Guest118>Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS release 4 (Nahant Update 3)
15:43<Guest118>this was my last choice
15:43<Guest118>but outdated
15:44<Guest118>more than 5 years old
15:44<Guest118>and new things wont compile
15:44<@Alberth>really stable thus :p
15:45<Guest118>but i could hang it after installing firefox and java
15:47<@Alberth>servers don't need firefox :p
15:47<Rubidium>Alberth: how are you supposed to configure your firewall then?
15:47<Rubidium>webmin requires a browser
15:48<Guest118>maeby linx
15:48<Rubidium>and ofcourse administration *must* happen on the phyisical machine
15:48<Rubidium>nay, lynx/links can't handle that... too much javascript ;)
15:48<Rubidium>and too much not like a "real" web browser
15:48<@Alberth>konqueror? :)
15:48<Guest118>then ssh
15:51<Rubidium>ssh isn't a graphical web browser
15:51<Rubidium>you really don't know what (stupid) sysadmins want, do you?
15:52<Guest118>i dont really like the cups server either on localhost:631
15:52<Rubidium>cups shouldn't run on a server
15:53<Rubidium>printers should have network connectivity themselves
15:53<@Alberth>but you need a central queue through 3 machines before you can print :p
15:54<Rubidium>but then the manager can't administer it, so it must run on his workstation
15:54<Rubidium>that way the manager can make sure nothing nasty is printed
15:55<@Alberth>I'd be happy if it did print anything, some times :)
15:55<Rubidium>I never had problems printing
15:55-!-Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:55<Rubidium>ofcourse I use a proper printer ;)
15:56<Guest118>i have chosen a samsung ml-2570
15:56<Rubidium>(those 50cm+ high printers)
15:58<Guest118>nah almost there
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16:01<Guest118>can someone recommend a way to put 6-7 cd images on a dvd ?
16:01<Guest118>would like to have a menu
16:01<Guest118>grub on dvd ?
16:03<@Alberth>put the DVD on a flat dust-free surface, shiny side up.
16:03<@Alberth>Unpack each CD carefully, and lay them shiny side down, exactly centered on the DVD.
16:03<@Alberth>Then use a big sledge hammer to melt them into one.
16:03<@Alberth>The latter step may fail if you don't hit it exactly at the center or without enough force.
16:03<@Terkhen>Guest118: google can
16:04<@Terkhen>ooooh, that's a nice solution too :)
16:04*LordAro likes :)
16:06<Rubidium>there's also fusion cooking, which fuses the CDs together. Given a DVD is just a CD with more capacity, it'll automagically turn into a DVD
16:06<@Terkhen>I wanted to do something like that with an old DVD which somehow caused bogus hard drive failures and almost made me crazy trying to fix it
16:07<Guest118>but would like the iso thing more
16:08<@Alberth>what's the point? images are so cheap
16:08<Guest118>making a dvd disc with 6 rescucds for ecample
16:09<Guest118>or 40 if they are 100MB
16:09<@Alberth>you just need one
16:10<@Alberth>or just install everything from scratch for the once in 10 years or so that it happens
16:10<Guest118>livecd and rescuecd is at least 2
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16:12<Guest118>this is interesting
16:12<Guest118>ISO Booting with Grub 2
16:13<Guest118>like copy rescuecd iso on hdd and boot it in bootmenu
16:15-!-Lakie` is now known as Lakie
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>can't you just put 10 isos as files on the disk, and use a boot-manager to boot from each one?!?
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're totally overthinking this...
16:16*dihedral nods
16:16<Guest118>that was what i would like to do
16:18<Guest118>never had grub2 yet
16:22<@Alberth>HDDs are even better at saving data for a longer time :)
16:23<Guest118>you recommend using a hdd to plug in a system with livecd isos?
16:25<@Alberth>I don't even make backups, and you're asking me for advice?
16:25<Guest118>dvd verification failed
16:27<Rubidium>oh... does mb read stuff only partly or something?
16:28<Guest118>cmp stage2.img /media/cdrecorder2/images/stage2.img
16:28<Guest118>stage2.img /media/cdrecorder2/images/stage2.img differ: byte 35844097, line 128982
16:28<Guest118>dont know, should work ok
16:28<@planetmaker>Rubidium: hm?
16:28<Guest118>lg dvd burner
16:29<Rubidium>planetmaker: bug tracker; the thing about reversing vehicles
16:29<@Alberth>Guest118: really, we don't need all those details
16:29-!-afk [~Dre@] has joined #openttd
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm fairly sure there's a "yes" :p
16:34<@planetmaker>hm, strange discussion
16:35<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: my point is that he says "engines may travel in both directions explicitly", but then the short vehicle callback is the way to do that explicitly?
16:36-!-Dreamxtreme [~Dre@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:36<Rubidium>and I bet his last lines mean: "please disallow reversing of wagons, but don't touch the others"
16:36*Eddi|zuHause has this feeling that we're talking about a person behind their back :p
16:36<@Alberth>in a public channel? ;)
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: whoever is currently not attending the party :=)
16:37<@Alberth>I am so glad I am not always online :p
16:38<Rubidium>and what I propose is closer to the opposite of what I think he wants, than what I suggest to implement in OpenTTD
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>that line doesn't semantically parse properly
16:39<Rubidium>ditch everything after the comma?
16:39<@planetmaker>Rubidium: just go by Eddi's suggestion: disallow generally and give NewGRFs a vehicle flag which can be set in order to allow reversing. Sounds clean to me
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>it now reads like: "whatever MB says, i immediately want to do the opposite"
16:40<Rubidium>my proposal was made before his counter proposal
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>what i have difficulties imagining currently about the whole issue: how is it handled currently when a shortened vehicle is turned around while it is on track, is the offset wrong there, too?
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i mean by the "turn around this vehicle" button in the train view
16:44<@Alberth>wouldn't all vehicles not be turned 'wrong' then?
16:44<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then the vehicle is "drawn" from the other direction
16:45<Rubidium>not sure how to explain that simply though
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but if the vehicle only has 4 views? is the sprite and its anchor point mirrored?!
16:46<Rubidium>OpenTTD does not mirror sprites
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>but then the anchor point is not at the beginning of the vehicle, but at the end?
16:47<Rubidium>the "anchor" point for the graphics is the middle of the bounding box
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>and why can't this same thing be done for ctrl+turned vehicles?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i mean the point given by xrel/yrel in the grf
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>(if those are the correct names)
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16:48<Rubidium>what happens with a shortened vehicle is that instead of placing the next middle 8 units further, you place it e.g. 3 units further
16:48<Rubidium>which means that the center of the current vehicle is outside of the vehicle
16:50<Rubidium>when you swap the whole train, then the next vehicle is "connected" to the other side (which is why short vehicles always need 8 sprites to not look ugly)
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16:51<@planetmaker>actually one flag an engine could need is "use push/pull behaviour" which - when set - will not turn the train visually when the drive direction changes
16:51<@planetmaker>that'd be a big improvement
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that should be a callback over the whole train
16:51<@planetmaker>IMHO it'd need be a property of the lead engine...
16:52<@planetmaker>the rest just plays along
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>no, it needs a combination of engine and attached wagons
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>an engine may be push-pull-eligible, but if there is no steering wagon attached, it cannot be used as such. like an engine with a freight train can't push, but the same engine with a passenger train can
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>callback is run when attaching/detaching wagons in the depot, and then store the result in a cache
16:54<@planetmaker>I disagree, Eddi|zuHause
16:54<@planetmaker>I could in a shunting way also drive a coal train with one engine backward
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>but the game does not model shunting
16:54<@planetmaker>as an engine I'd just query the last vehicle for different speed
16:54<@planetmaker>the vehicleID
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>the game models regular train operation, which is completely separate
16:55<Rubidium>so for the depot (west facing vehicles) it vehicle#2 expects vehicle#1 to "end" (graphically) at the left of vehicle#2's "bounding" box (the 8/8th box). When you turn the whole train around that expectation changes to the right side. However, when you flip vehicle#2 in the depot you'll end up that assuming it is attached to vehicle#1 facing east, whereas it is actually at the other side and facing west
16:55<@planetmaker>still. I don't think it's needed to run a CB for all vehicles. That makes it unnecessarily complicated
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "querying" still needs a callback, not a property
16:56<@planetmaker>yes, but not of the whole train. And the engine should decide what to do with the CB result. It should not be required
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16:56<@planetmaker>And the train would behave as normal, if the "use shunting" flat is not set
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so when turning around the train, the alignment of bounding boxes changes, but when turning around single vehicle, it doesn't?
16:57<@planetmaker>if it is set, it'd be up to the engine to decide on the behaviour via CB etc
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i have a feeling i still didn't understand it. but nvm.
16:58<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yes-ish
16:58<Rubidium>just think of it as the sprites are always aligned towards the front of the train
16:58<Rubidium>(thus logically always to the same side)
16:59<Rubidium>but when you flip a single vehicle that single vehile thinks that the front of the train is where the actual tail of the train is
16:59<LordAro>Rubidium/Truebrain: You are the most likely to know: is there a way to access old files on bananas (specifically AroAI 1.0.0(r53) )?
17:00<Rubidium>if you request it specifically with its unique ID
17:00<Rubidium>and md5 checksum
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17:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: problem when you define it as a callback of the front engine only, then the front engine must be aware of all wagons in it, even if they are not from the same newgrf. if you have a callback over the whole train, the game querys each wagon individually whether it says "may be at the front/middle/end of a push-pull train", and if all wagons return the correct result, the whole train will be marked push-pull-eligible. if any
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>wagon fails, then it's not. no need to be other-grf-aware
17:01<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: what'd be the problem calling a CB on an arbitrary wagon?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: yes, when loading an old savegame that expects this old file, it can be downloaded.
17:01<@planetmaker>if not implemented, the default result is always CB_FAILED
17:01<LordAro>Rubidium: Unique ID= 49415F41, don't have an md5 checksum
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17:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you can't call a callback from within a grf. only the game can call callbacks.
17:02<LordAro>Eddi: don't have a save that would want 1.0.0 over 1.0.2
17:02<Rubidium>then you can't request it, as per the license you've given
17:02<@planetmaker>haha :-)
17:03<LordAro>but i'm the author ><
17:03<Rubidium>but OpenTTD doesn't know that
17:03<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the game could know, though :-) a CB to the engine which returns the CB result of the last wagon
17:03<@planetmaker>and the game would know which that is
17:03-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has joined #openttd
17:03<LordAro>so? you do though, and you're the one with access to the files...
17:04-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has left #openttd []
17:04<Rubidium>hmm, are you asking me to get that file specifically?
17:05<LordAro>or at least, anyone with access to the files, as (for some reason) i don't
17:06<LordAro>(i think i, as the author, should)
17:07<Guest118>there is 1 character difference between the iso and dvd image, should i try again? :(
17:08<Rubidium>I would kinda assume that the author has the original files ;)
17:08<LordAro>yes, well, i don't :( its got lost
17:10<Guest118>anyboddy have idea what may cause 1 character difference while burning dvd?
17:11<@Belugas>night all
17:11<LordAro>Rubidium: thank you
17:15<LordAro>Rubidium: can i also request v1.1.0?
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17:17<@planetmaker>LordAro: that's available as tag in your repo... why not just build it?
17:18<LordAro>no make
17:18<@Alberth>just type the compile commands manually
17:18<LordAro>although, i could just package the files myself i guess
17:25<LordAro>night all
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17:34<@Terkhen>good night
17:35<Rubidium>sleep well Terkhen
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17:50<frosch123>hmm, it would have been more fun if sirkoz called his grf "cheap long and fast bridges"
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>i always thought bridges were WAAAAY too cheap
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>and we finally need this action1/2/3 support so we can do proper long and high bridges
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18:58<Eddi|zuHause>interesting... "molotov coctails" are actually a finnish in-joke :p
19:00-!-CaNsA [] has joined #openttd
19:01<CaNsA>yoyoyo guys, ive noticed a bug in openttd r21941 that isnt on the current changle log
19:01<CaNsA>where can i report it?
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19:02<Maarten> :)
19:05<CaNsA>done :D
19:05<@Yexo>I don't really understand it
19:06<@Yexo>the intercontinental airport is bigger, just like I'd expect from the naming
19:06<@Yexo>only the preview is a bit smaller, because otherwise the window would become too big
19:07<CaNsA>the actual size is wrong. also, an intercontinental airport should be smaller than and airport that is intertnational
19:07<@Yexo>that makes no sense
19:07<CaNsA>continents are smaller than the world.
19:08<@Yexo>intercontinental = between continents, ie between africa and europe
19:08<@Yexo>international = between nations, ie between england and germany
19:08<CaNsA>international = covering the world
19:09<@Yexo>you're using a flawed definition, the game is correct
19:09<CaNsA>fair enough
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19:10<@Yexo>of course you're free to suggest a different naming for those airports, but that'd be a feature request best discussed first in the forums
19:11<CaNsA>kudos on the new airport menu though, thats sweet
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19:21<ccfreak2k>"international" = "to any nation"
19:21<ccfreak2k>Though the difference between intercontinental and international is arguable I guess.
19:22<ccfreak2k>Could you really have an international flight to antarctica?
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>not "to any nation". only "to at least one other nation"
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>typically, the nearest "other continent" is further away than the nearest "other nation"
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19:23<@Yexo>ccfreak2k: so "intercity" = "to any city"?
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>a flight from frankfurt to paris is international, a flight from frankfurt to new york is intercontinental
19:24<@Yexo>almost all intercontinental flights are also international
19:24<@Yexo>the reverse is not true
19:24<@Yexo>only some international flights are intercontinental
19:24<ccfreak2k>What about in a broader sense: is the UN an international affair, or intercontinental?
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could fly from paris to guadeloupe or something ;)
19:25<@Yexo>ccfreak2k: international, because it's an affair between nations
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>which is intercontinental, but not international ;)
19:25<@Yexo>not between "continents" as there is no government for each continent
19:31<CaNsA>would you say that the USA is a continent?
19:33<@Yexo>North America is a continent
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>CaNsA: what we try to tell you is even at smaller airports you will find international flights, but only on really big ones you will likely find intercontinental ones
19:35<CaNsA>no worries
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19:37<Maarten>it also depends on the size of the country.... in a country like the US, you can have domestic airports that are bigger in size then say the intercontinental airport of Luxemburg. ;)
19:37<@Yexo>does luxemburg have an intercontinental airport?
19:37<@Yexo>but your point is valid :p
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember seeing an airport in luxemburg
19:38<Maarten>Well, it is quite possible that Luxemburg has an airline that services e.g. New York. (I don't know the fact of that)
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>they probably have one though, but why should it be intercontinental?
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>intercontinental flights you espect from london, paris or frankfurt
19:40<Maarten>actually LuxAir does not serve outside of Europe..... but regardless, the point is the same. A small nation, not even half the size of a U.S. state, can have a intercontinental airport that is smaller in size then a domestic airport in the U.S.
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19:42<Maarten>E.g, my brother just flew out of Luxor in Egypt - he was evacuated during a holiday trip - and the airport there serves destinations to several European cities..... but is really nothing more then an airstrip in the desert. ;)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>if you consider the individual states in the US and view them as nations in this context, you should get a better picture
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, egypt is a borderline development country, of course you'd expect smaller airports there :p
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>egypt has about as many inhabitants as germany, but its economic strength is only a fraction
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20:08<R-Blade>sup all
20:08<R-Blade>Hey, anyone here playing openttd right now?
20:09<CaNsA>i am, whats up?
20:09<R-Blade>ah cool I was wondering, what train sets/grfs do you use
20:10<CaNsA>i use standards trains
20:10<R-Blade>Also, do you reach a point where even if half your lines are clogged you find millions in the bank yearly
20:10<R-Blade>ah ok
20:10<R-Blade>I'm a ECS +NARS + US Renewal set man
20:10<CaNsA>clogged lines?
20:10<CaNsA>i dont have clogged limes
20:10<R-Blade>Well, one of my problems/fun challenges is say
20:10<R-Blade>I run a LOT of freight/passenger trains on one bit of crowded line
20:11<R-Blade>which leads to delays sometimes
20:11<R-Blade>I'm working on a bypass route for the freight though
20:12-!-goblin [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:14<CaNsA>this is my most recent save
20:15<CaNsA>have a looksee mate
20:15<R-Blade>cool, thanks
20:15<CaNsA>no probs. its a bit messy but it works wel;
20:15<R-Blade>ah, you are from the united kingdom
20:16<CaNsA>yeppers, liverpool :D
20:16<R-Blade>thats where you have the beatles and the giant steam trains and the titanic
20:17<CaNsA>we did have the titanic until they killed it
20:20<R-Blade>shame about those icebergs
20:21<CaNsA>who'd have guess it eh
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23:27<Guest118>CentOS 5.5
23:27<Guest118>its alive
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 04 00:00:42 2011