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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-04

---Logopened Fri Feb 04 00:00:42 2011
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01:56<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:40<@Terkhen>"this discussion is going in circles." <- :D
02:43<Rubidium>but toroidal or sphericial?
02:58<@Terkhen>could you get infinite money by sending your train infinitely far away? :P
03:08<Rubidium>ofcourse you can
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03:15<@Terkhen>can you create a network which causes an infinite lookup of the pathfinder freezing the game for everyone?
03:16<Rubidium>nope, the pathfinders have a maximum search depth
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03:29<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r21951 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] reset the carry flag every 4 bytes in action6 when adding more than one variable
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04:55<Xaroth_>Yexo: i was kidding...
04:56<@Yexo>I know, having some trouble locally ;)
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05:32<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21952 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: unify the company clearing code for bankruptcy with the command to remove companies
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07:07<DanMacK>Hey all
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07:44<guyht>Is openttd still available for iPhone and iPad? Can't seem to find it on cydia?
07:45<@planetmaker>you should ask the person who wrote or hacked that port
07:45<@planetmaker>there never was an official version
07:45<guyht>That would be zottd
07:46<@planetmaker>And he never provided us with the patches which he needed to write either
07:46<guyht>Fair enough, I realise its neither supported or endorsed by ottd
07:46<@planetmaker>And no-one donated an iPad for me so far
07:47<@planetmaker>how else should it be tested than with hardware in developer's hands?
07:48<guyht>Maybe it's worth trying to raise the money then
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07:50<guyht>In other news, was trying to get autopilot up and running but it seems that it is no longer maintained and doesn't seem to run with the latest version of Tcl
07:50<@planetmaker>autopilot or ap+ ?
07:50<guyht>Ap+ sorry
07:51<guyht>I couldn't find a download link for autopilot
07:51<guyht>But that would be much appreciated
07:52<@planetmaker>ap+ is the somewhat maintained version
07:53<@planetmaker> might be interesting to you ;-)
07:53<@planetmaker>but yes, autopilot / ap+ require certain tcl versions and more important a specific(?) version of expect.
07:53<@planetmaker>which is afaik also mentioned in the readme
07:54<guyht>Ah, that could be it
07:54<guyht>I put Tcl 8.5 on which is specified in the readme, but just the latest expect
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07:57<@planetmaker>you might consider to write a front-end for JOAN, too ;-)
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07:58<Rubidium>guyht: problem with i* is that our license and Apple's terms of service clash in a way that OpenTTD won't make it onto their app store without them changing their terms of service (or us changing the license)
07:58<@planetmaker>psst, he asked not for the official store(s) ;-)
07:59<Rubidium>but officially supporting cydia is asking for people to do illegal things
07:59<guyht>Yes, I realise that is unfortunately the case, but it shouldn't stop people releasing it on cydia where you can release uber gpl
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08:00<guyht>That is not necessarily true, the legality of cydia is very debated
08:00<guyht>But it is certainly a grey area
08:01<Rubidium>I don't know what cydia entails, but jail breaking kinda seems illegal with all the successful prosecution of people writing jail break tools
08:01<Rubidium>and I kinda assume that cydia isn't on Apple's app store
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08:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think the judgements are fairly unanimous that jailbreaking itself is not illegal
08:04<guyht>Joan looks promising, going to have a look. Shame that ap+ is not working, is there anywhere I can find out which version of expect is required?
08:05<@planetmaker>what does the readme say?
08:05<guyht>5.44 or above
08:06<guyht>Will have another crack at it and see what I an find
08:06<Ammler>guyht: you used ap+ from the hg repo?
08:06<Ammler>then you should try openttd without autopilot
08:06<guyht>No, I downloaded from the admintools page
08:07<guyht>Ah, maybe I got an older version!
08:07<Ammler>yes, that is a snapshot of the hg repo
08:07<guyht>Balls, ok, will check out the latest version and see if it makes a difference. Thanks.
08:08<Ammler>you downloaded tip, you won't get another version :-)
08:09<guyht>There is a known issue with Tcl 8.4 and expect on ubuntu 10.04, suggested solution is to use activetcl, will try that too
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08:10<Rubidium>guyht: even then the zodttd thread about OpenTTD on the i* was primarily whining about the buttons being too small and such; something I'm not really interested in fixing
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08:13<guyht>Yes, if it was an easy solution I would have got it, but it seems that isn't available
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08:22<guyht>This is the error that I get with ap:
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09:04<@SmatZ>hello Belugas
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09:05<@Belugas>mster SmatZ :D
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09:11<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r21953 /trunk/ (13 files in 5 dirs): -Remove [FS#4456]: the non-uniform stations setting. Support for uniform stations has been broken for over a year
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09:13<Wolfsherz>hello, having issues with foundations in openttd 1.1.0-beta4. at the title-screen they are colored brownish, with vertical lines... ingame they just look like rocks or something like that.
09:13<Rubidium>different climates have different foundations
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09:16<Wolfsherz>oh, thats it... ok, gonna look for a newgrf then. the rocks don't look that good in my opinion. thank you Rubidium.
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09:19<Wolfsherz>another one, in temperate climate only, i get the following error when clicking on industries (ocassionally): "Assertion failed at line 88 of ..\src\strings.cpp: **argt == 0 || **argt == type
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09:20<@planetmaker>you certainly play with newgrfs and / or a map where you changed those?
09:20<Rubidium>Wolfsherz: already fixed in the nightlies I think
09:20<Wolfsherz>yes, i play with various newgrfs, is a list required?
09:21<@planetmaker>rather a savegame
09:21<@planetmaker>and test it in the current nightly
09:21*Rubidium postulates FS#4422
09:22<Wolfsherz>i will try the nightly
09:24<Wolfsherz>nightly fixes the problem
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09:28<Wolfsherz>Rubidium, where is FS#4422 actually? I fail to find it at the bugtracker
09:29<Rubidium>then look for the closed bugs
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>Wolfsherz: the default search ignores closed tasks
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>Wolfsherz: you can just enter the number at the top
09:30<Wolfsherz>thank you, still new to this all
09:37<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21954 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: remove setting to not show the vehicle speed in the vehicle view
09:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21955 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: always show the long date in the status bar
09:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21956 /trunk/src/ (settings_type.h table/settings.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp): -Cleanup: always draw the bridge pillars
09:41<Hirundo>'Cleanup' is an euphemism for 'Remove'?
09:42<Rubidium>or did you use any of those settings with another value?
09:43<Hirundo>Of course not :)
09:46<Hirundo>Some suggestions for further 'cleanup':
09:46<Hirundo>allow goto depot orders
09:46<Hirundo>enable timetabling
09:47<Rubidium>good ideas
09:47<Hirundo>improved loading (!= gradual loading)
09:47<Hirundo>some of that 'adjacent station' stuff
09:48<@Terkhen>heh, allow goto depot orders is a setting?
09:48<Hirundo>mammoth trains
09:48<Hirundo>yes :)
09:48<@Terkhen>why, what harm can it do?
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>not using improved loading has some advantages for really busy stations
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>improved loading has the problem that it cannot predict the amount of cargo coming in during the loading period
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>so for very busy stations it underestimates the amount of trains it can load simultaneously
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>so you get a large stockpile, and lower rating
09:56<R-Blade>ah I see
09:57<R-Blade>the biggest problem I have is trying to run realistic networks pre 1940
09:57<R-Blade>(though GRFs help with this, its still hard having to build a 15 track major urban center with streetcars having to flood the cities
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>R-Blade: try the patch that reduces town cargos
09:58<R-Blade>I should post a picture of my northeast corridor eventually, thanks Eddi|zuHause
10:00<R-Blade>also, do any of you use ships?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>depends on the map
10:03<R-Blade>I've noticed that ships only make sense for oil and fish, otherwise they are too slow even with their huge cargoes
10:06*DanMacK likes to start early, so ships are really the only thing going
10:06<DanMacK>makes things *really* difficult
10:07<@planetmaker>and then use a Norwegian Fjordland map and you'll virtually have not much choice even further on ;-)
10:07<DanMacK>or set sea level to 90% with mountainous settings :P
10:07<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
10:08<@planetmaker>I actually like about 50% and mountainous ;-)
10:08<R-Blade>I tend to do american settings so boats are..
10:08<@planetmaker>sometimes even 70% - island scenario
10:08<R-Blade>well you can call me OPEC
10:08<R-Blade>also my god the hovercraft is so broken for cities
10:08<@planetmaker>how so?
10:09<R-Blade>its fast acceleration + passenger capacity means that it beats most trains till say you get a GG1 equilivant
10:09<@planetmaker>and what's broken about that?
10:11<R-Blade>its better than a large chunk of trains, which means it could replace some rail systems
10:11<R-Blade>(for passengers at least)
10:12<DanMacK>Well, they also carry alot less than a train
10:13<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21957 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: gotodepot and timetabling settings are more or less useless; just don't use depot orders or timetabling if you don't want to use it
10:13<@planetmaker>so really busy manhatten-style town districts are hard to service properly via boat. But then... by any means of inner-city transport
10:14<R-Blade>I found a nice little grf that works well
10:14<R-Blade>hiroshima trams, fits 450 and 230, as well as some german trams that fit 200-300 people
10:14<R-Blade>work well as intercity subways for hyper crowded places
10:15<R-Blade>(but at 50 mph they are slow)
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10:30<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21958 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Cleanup: join_stations setting; can done by distant join and could be subverted by distant join
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10:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21959 /trunk/src/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Change: replace longbridges with custom maximum bridge and tunnel length setting
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>he's on a spree!
10:40<@planetmaker>quite :-)
10:40<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21960 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs):
10:40<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Change: show the length of vehicles in tiles, instead of half tiles in the depot
10:40<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4461]: don't count the number of vehicles but the length of vehicles to (configurably) limit train length
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10:43<Eddi|zuHause>if it's the right time now: i'd still like "no loading" and "no unloading" orders simultaneously (for timetabled sidings)
10:43<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: which settings do you think the default should be changed of?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: not sure, haven't looked at the settings lately
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10:45<@planetmaker>speak up now or remain silent forever :-P
10:46<@planetmaker>line_reverse_mode could be dropped from GUI, too
10:46<@planetmaker>and default to stations and EOL (dunno current default)
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: a gui setting for "never turn around at any signals" could be useful
10:47<@planetmaker>industry_platform = 1 <-- what did / does that do?
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>(overriding the three wait time settings)
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: make a flat area around industries, with a radius of 0 to 4
10:48<@planetmaker>oh ha
10:48<SirSquidness>< Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: a gui setting for "never turn around at any signals" could be useful <-- Please oh please tell me that this setting already exists?! :D
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>(before this setting, it was hardcoded to 1, and i found it ugly)
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>SirSquidness: yes, as a console setting
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>SirSquidness: try "list_settings pf.wait"
10:49<SirSquidness>Eddi|zuHause: convey unto me these wise words you have
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>setting of 255 is disabled
10:51<SirSquidness>Many thanks! <3
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>be sure to do this for all three settings. otherwise you may have unwanted side effects
10:53<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: a GUI setting for that is somewhat non-trivial, unless you show the actual numbers
10:53<Rubidium>as we only have a "disabled" string for value 0
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i mean a single boolean setting "disable turning around at signals", and at any place that now checks wait==255, you add a check for this setting.
10:54<Rubidium>multiple settings for the same thing leads to inconsistencies
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the question is whether it is worth it. and i think it is in this case...
10:55<Rubidium>like there were two settings for not showing signs
10:55<Rubidium>if you disable showing in one, the other still shows that it will be shown but it won't
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe remove the meaning of 255 in the wait time, and convert old settings on load?
10:55<Rubidium>making *me* go haywire why it doesn't show the signs
10:56<Rubidium>hmm, that would be a good idea
10:57<Rubidium>but... three settings?
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>wait_oneway_signal, wait_twoway_signal and wait_for_pbs_path or so
10:58<Rubidium>then you'd almost come back to the current settings
10:59<Rubidium>though those are quite magic numbers
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>well, the disable-setting should affect all types.
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>so only one disable-setting
11:00<Rubidium>bah... stupid legacy setting
11:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21961 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp order_gui.cpp): -Remove: limitation that not loading and not unloading is mutual exclusive
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>at this rate, we're at a 3D-maparray and bendy bridges in no time :p
11:09<Rubidium>I doubt that
11:09<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, but not at this rate of adding new lines of code ;-)
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause># How could your best friend's ex-girlfriend's
11:10<Eddi|zuHause># Younger sister's mate, know before I did?
11:12<@planetmaker>that's too many levels of whoever's
11:13<Rubidium>sorry... but the chain breaks at "sister" for me
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's how the song goes ;)
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11:21<DanMacK>hey Lakie
11:21<Lakie>Hi DanMacK
11:25<fjb>Moin everybody.
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11:40<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21962 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 4 dirs): -Feature-ish: GUI setting to disable reversing at signals
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause>lang files could need an update about removed strings?
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12:31<DanMacK>Hey Andy
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13:33<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21963 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: saying something twice in an error message is not needed
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13:41<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21964 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.cfg: -Fix (r21959): regression failed
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13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r21965 /trunk/src/lang/ (58 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: czech - 6 changes by SmatZ
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: dutch - 15 changes by Yexo
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: english_US - 10 changes by Rubidium
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by glx
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14:10*andythenorth waves
14:11<andythenorth>me and Mr MacKellar have been drawing more ships
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14:11<andythenorth>the issue of ship liveries has come up again
14:13<andythenorth>frosch123: I can't remember where the ship colours discussion ended
14:13<andythenorth>there's a patch
14:13<frosch123>the infamous livery discussion?
14:13<andythenorth>but some thinking that maybe there is a more 'proper' way to do it?
14:15<andythenorth>frick and frack :P
14:16<andythenorth>so can we remove all the different options for train liveries? :P
14:16<frosch123>andythenorth: there was some discussion whether newgrfs should be able to define their own livery categories, esp. as the default liveries for trains make no sense since newrailtypes. there was also an discussion about player-defined categories (which drifts towards consists and general grouping). but the only argument that was actually settles was that it is a lot of work for questionable benefit :)
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14:17*andythenorth proposes removing train liveries :D
14:17<andythenorth>inconsistent with other vehicle types
14:18<Rubidium>andythenorth: start a new game and type "set liveries 0" in the console
14:19<andythenorth>that's awesome
14:20<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21966 /trunk/src/ (engine_type.h table/engines.h train_cmd.cpp): -Change [FS#4462]: [NewGRF] Disable the flipping of train engines/wagons in the depot by default for NewGRFs
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that's only visual, is it?
14:26<andythenorth>are we calling 'no' on ship liveries then?
14:26<frosch123>adding a fixed number of default ship liveries only extents the problem imo
14:27<supermop>group liveries? or is that just throwing gasoline on the fire here...
14:27<andythenorth>group liveries might be a solution, but it's very complicated
14:28<andythenorth>should the existing livery system be removed?
14:28<frosch123>that would cause complains unless we add a superset instead :)
14:28<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: only visual?
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the liveries setting
14:29<Rubidium>oh, yeah... only visual
14:30<andythenorth>what if I complain more about not extending liveries than other players complain about removing them?
14:30<andythenorth>is that like a democracy of complaining?
14:30<Rubidium>andythenorth: you at least have the freedom to complain
14:30<frosch123>sure, the majority also decided to remove changing newgrfs in game
14:31<Rubidium>andythenorth: as you know... OpenTTD is a dictatorship
14:31<Rubidium>or at least, it has been written so it must be true
14:31<frosch123>andythenorth: the masses can always enforce changes, but they cannot control in which direction :)
14:33*andythenorth doesn't see why the train nerds are allowed to have a livery system if others aren't
14:33<andythenorth>what did the train nerds ever do for us?
14:34<frosch123>yeah, what did the whales and trees ever do for us
14:35<Rubidium>andythenorth: what different ship types does OpenTTD have; how are they differentiated?
14:35<Rubidium>with trains that distinction *was* quite easy
14:36<andythenorth>I don't know any more :P
14:36<andythenorth>I set liveries 0 and can't check :D
14:36<frosch123>Rubidium: the fs task added a property to distinguish steam, diesel and sail
14:36<Rubidium>but I want a nuklear wessel
14:36<andythenorth>are the train liveries original TTD ?
14:37<frosch123>yup, that's why a fixed selection is bad
14:37<andythenorth>I thought they'd been added somewhere in the world of TTDP
14:37<frosch123>andythenorth: no
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, they all had the same livery
14:38<frosch123>but as i said before, current liveries make no sense since new railtypes, and automatically adding liveries for each available railtype makes no sense either :)
14:38<andythenorth>remove them :)
14:39<@Terkhen>livery classes :)
14:39<@Yexo>new vehicle property "livery class" that can be freely set. Vehicles with the same value will get the same colors. User can set colors for every livery class defined by any newgrf
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'm all for having groups define livery...
14:39<@Yexo>but then that requires an addition to all newgrfs
14:40<andythenorth>newgrfs define arbitrary properties for vehicles....
14:40<andythenorth>similar to action 14
14:40<andythenorth>'arbitrary' may be the wrong word :P
14:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how would groups define livery?
14:41<Rubidium>all vehicles in this group have livery X
14:41<Rubidium>and then sub groups
14:42<Rubidium>which override the livery of the parent group
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>same selection window as now, but for each group individually
14:42<andythenorth>the groups discussion again :D
14:42<andythenorth>Alberth: how many groups can a vehicle be in (on your idea)
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>mainly because i want to have different tram/bus liveries in each city
14:43<@Alberth>as many as you have groups
14:43<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I wouldn't say "the same", I'd leave it to: train engine, pax wagon, freight wagon, road vehicle, ship, aircraft
14:43*andythenorth wonders about the 'fun'
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that'd probably suffice.
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>bus/truck separated
14:43<andythenorth>nearly all of the discussions about groups sound like 'work' to me
14:44<andythenorth>it's all about organising and classifying
14:44<@Yexo>one vehicle in multiple groups and a livery per group is going to be a mess
14:44<@Yexo>which group takes priority wrt liveries?
14:44<andythenorth>going to the company menu and choosing a few livery settings is 'fun'
14:44<andythenorth>spending twenty minutes organising groups is 'work'
14:45*andythenorth wonders
14:45<andythenorth>was the original reason for groups to remove 'work' ?
14:45<@Yexo>autoreplace per group?
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>i once suggested "group classes". like a vehicle may only be in one "consist"-class group, and one "livery"-class group, but in many "user"-class or "station"/"automatic"-class groups
14:45<andythenorth>autoreplace by group removes a boring task
14:46<andythenorth>enforcing making groups for everything introduces a boring task
14:46<@Alberth>'group' as basic building block is the wrong starting point imho
14:46<Rubidium>setting liveries is a boring task in any case
14:46<andythenorth>I like it :D
14:46<andythenorth>but I'm not normal
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>building a rail network is a boring task. but people do it anyway.
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14:47<@Alberth>Rubidium: it fulfils the goal of the game: waste time :)
14:47<andythenorth>waste time in a pleasing way :)
14:47<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: nah, that is the boring part. Keeping it working while its load increases is the fun part
14:47<andythenorth>about once a week I have to group all the lego bits
14:47<andythenorth>it's very dull
14:48<andythenorth>but if I don't, it's worse
14:48<Rubidium>andythenorth: the point is that vehicles that share an order will (implicitly) be in a group
14:48<Rubidium>now they are as well, it's just *much* more hidden
14:48<andythenorth>there's even a GUI mockup for this somewhere...
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14:48<andythenorth>if 'livery' was a per-vehicle property
14:48<andythenorth>then setting it could be a one-time action
14:48*andythenorth looks
14:49<Rubidium>making the "orders" more visible and searchable should make it easier to manage vehicles in the long run
14:50<andythenorth>I can't find the image I made
14:50<@Yexo>are the bridges in toyland supposed to look purple?
14:50<andythenorth>but if applying a livery to a group was same as using 'go to depot' or 'send for servicing' etc...
14:50<andythenorth>and just set the property on each vehicle in the group
14:50<andythenorth>then crazy cascading rules aren't needed
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't see how re-selecting the livery for every vehicle i buy [unless i clone, which is not always] makes the task easier
14:51<@Yexo>hmm, only happens with original ttd graphics, not with opengfx
14:51<@Yexo>so I'll guess it's intended
14:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: good point
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14:52<andythenorth>why try and make groups do everything?
14:52<andythenorth>it smells wrong
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's just another annoying step more in the buing process, after refitting and timetabling
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14:53<andythenorth>we established a solution before: cascading livery rules for groups with numeric weightings
14:53<Rubidium>andythenorth: what method would you propose to make liveries only apply to a subset of the vehicles?
14:53<Rubidium>without the use of groups that is
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>groups should work like selections. i give it a few criteria and lists all vehicles that match. then i want to perform orders on all these vehicles
14:54<andythenorth>but if you want those changes to be maintained need magic
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14:54<andythenorth>Rubidium: something like current
14:54<andythenorth>just use the cargo type or propulsion type
14:55<andythenorth>and keep the current livery menu
14:55*Eddi|zuHause now understands what they taught in software engineering when they said "the requirements are not always clear, and often contradicting"
14:55*andythenorth worries this:
14:56<andythenorth>'groups' are the proposed solution to a lot of problems
14:56<andythenorth>but the only way to make them do all the things desired
14:56<andythenorth>is to introduce a system of cascading rules and weightings
14:56<andythenorth>which the player will need to figure out and maintain
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see this working...
14:56<andythenorth>so now, instead of some annoying tasks with vehicles
14:56<andythenorth>I have a magic system to do the annoying tasks for me
14:57<andythenorth>but I have to maintain an annoying list of magic potion rules
14:57<andythenorth>which start to interact horribly
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>instead of "cascading", just enforce the "uniqueness" of certain properties.
14:57*andythenorth remembers something
14:57<andythenorth>seen disney's sorcerer's apprentice?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. if you (dynamically or manually) create a group, and give it an autoreplace order, remove all vehicles from previous autoreplace groups they were in
14:57<Rubidium>so... I guess we ought to just trash liveries all together
14:58*andythenorth has auto-magical html things before
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the sorcerer's apprentice is a poem by Goethe. every german must learn it in school
14:58<Rubidium>oh, and trash groups as those are just troublesome to set up
14:59<andythenorth>currently they are pretty good
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>the most pressing thing about groups that i am currently missing is: "take all ungrouped vehicles, and put them in a group with their shared orders. create new groups if not existing"
15:01<andythenorth>it's another way of saying 'routes are a type of group'
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it's already partly implemented by the selection "add shared order vehicles to this group"
15:02<andythenorth>Rubidium: do you ever set any livery?
15:02<Rubidium>in what kind of setting? Testing stuff or actually gameplay?
15:03<andythenorth>gameplay ;)
15:03<Rubidium>then no; can't be bothered
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>i set them for trams/busses
15:03<Rubidium>well, sometimes the company colour is annoying so I change that... but that's hardly changing liveries
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>rail is unnessesary because dbset doesn't have company colours
15:03*andythenorth does ponder
15:04<andythenorth>is it possible to store the cc on a per-vehicle basis?
15:04<Rubidium>but then I have rarely played for the gameplay
15:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21967 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Prepare: for 1.1.0-beta5
15:11<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21968 /tags/1.1.0-beta5/: -Release: 1.1.0-beta5
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>a release before midnight? :p
15:13<Prof_Frink>r22k before midnight?
15:13<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nah, rather 22 hours after midnight
15:15*andythenorth obsessively tries to find a valid way to classify ships for livery purposes :D
15:15*andythenorth should do draw FIRS instead
15:17<andythenorth>so the train livery types are considered 'broken' following introduction of railtypes?
15:17<Prof_Frink>No. Draw OAKS.
15:19<DanMacK>hah hah
15:21<andythenorth>Oaks Acronym Killer Set
15:22<Katje>is there anyway to control which station takes the produce from an industry ?
15:22<Katje>say I have two stations either side of a saw mill
15:22<Katje>but I only want the goods to goto one of them
15:24<+glx>just send the right train at the right place
15:24<andythenorth>serve that one more
15:24<andythenorth>more goods go to the one with higher station rating
15:29<@peter1138>andythenorth, not 'broken' just 'didn't consider it'
15:29<andythenorth>hmm hmm
15:29*andythenorth doesn't know what to do about ships :(
15:29<andythenorth>can it be so hard? It's just pixels
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15:34<andythenorth>we'll just draw older ships with black hulls. No CC (or minimal)
15:34*andythenorth takes the easy way out :D
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15:49<supermop>Would it be weird to go to my boss's DJ set tonight?
15:51<supermop>it is his first one in a really long time, and he is sort of nervous
15:51<supermop>but i don't usually go out to see DJs in the city
16:06*andythenorth ponders an evil lime green colour for lime works :D
16:07<supermop>limeade works?
16:07<@Terkhen>ectoplasm wells?
16:07<andythenorth>maybe in toyland version :P
16:08*andythenorth ponders
16:08<andythenorth>replace toyland with 'haloween' climate?
16:08<supermop>a special toyland or whimsy FIRS economy would be an interesting thought experiment
16:17<supermop>toy supplies
16:18<@Terkhen>andythenorth: will you include a "stuff" economy?
16:18<andythenorth>if you code it :P
16:18<andythenorth>red stuff
16:18<andythenorth>blue stuff
16:18<andythenorth>green stuff
16:18<@Terkhen>I can do the specs for you
16:18<@Terkhen>cargos: stuff
16:19<@Terkhen>industries: "place where they make stuff"
16:19<@Terkhen>that's all :)
16:19<supermop>would still be fun
16:23<DanMacK>Actually, could do it as "Stuff" and "Things"
16:23<DanMacK>You need stuff to make things
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16:24<@Terkhen>sounds overcomplicated :P
16:24<DanMacK>Train sets ahve 2 cars... stuff hopper and things van :P
16:24<Rubidium>yeah, and then use the things to make more stuff
16:25<Rubidium>preferably more output than input ;)
16:25<@Alberth>trains have to pull things and push stuff
16:28<andythenorth>can I set livery differently for stuff and things?
16:28<andythenorth>it would surely make solving groups easier?
16:35<DJNekkid>how CPU expensive is VarAction2 Variable 4A for vehicles? (check railtype)
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16:38<@planetmaker>good evening
16:38<DanMacK>Hey PM
16:39<andythenorth>hi planetmaker
16:40<andythenorth>what larks :D
16:41<+michi_cc>DJNekkid: not very much
16:42<DJNekkid>michi_cc: any thoughts about that vs B4 (speed) ?
16:43<DJNekkid>as I probably need both
16:44<DJNekkid>if B4 > 0, check for 4A
16:44<+michi_cc>B4 is less expensive, but both are still very low complexity
16:45<DJNekkid>or i could if B4 = <number> <do something>, if <another number>< do something else> <default if neither>
16:45<+michi_cc>Do you want to use that every tick or only for CB36 or so?
16:45<DJNekkid>well, its about adjusting running costs if on certain tracks
16:45<DJNekkid>so that a TGV (for example) wont get 'high' costs if it runs on 'slow' tracks
16:46<DJNekkid>as it dont need to utilize all of its 12000hp to overcome air drag and such
16:46<@planetmaker>then let it depend on actual speed
16:46<@planetmaker>you can easily test that
16:46<DJNekkid>but the problem is
16:46<DJNekkid>one can adjust the speed on the tracks :)
16:46<DJNekkid>reqeusted by you iirc
16:47<@planetmaker>Maybe. But why depend the running cost on the track type and not on the actual speed?
16:47<DJNekkid>because when a train accelerate it usually use all of its available power (i would assume)
16:47<@planetmaker>at least if your argument is air drag - which is speed
16:47<@Yexo>making the running cost depend on the track type will fail when someone uses a railtype you don't know about that is still compatible
16:48<+michi_cc>No idea how you implement running costs internally, but CB36 is called when the railtype changes to get new power/TE etc, so maybe you can store some stuff during that.
16:48<@Yexo>you can't for vehicles
16:48<DJNekkid>michi_cc: i know _how_ to do it, and that is via CB36
16:48<DJNekkid>but i feels that the 2cc trainset is already somewhat cpu expensive as it is
16:49<DJNekkid>Yexo: the plan were to skip that 'procedure' if NuTracks isnt loaded
16:49<+michi_cc>Well, CB36 isn't called often enough to that 4A would have any noticable effect for that.
16:49<DJNekkid>oki, then I'll go for the combi-solution
16:50<DJNekkid>planetmaker: the argument isnt air drag as such,
16:50<@planetmaker>it was yours ;-)
16:50<@planetmaker>And I haven't seen another
16:50<+michi_cc>You could use bit 9 if 4A at least to reduce running cost if not powered and only dragged in a consist even if you don't know the actual railtype.
16:50<DJNekkid>but a 12000hp 300kmh topspeed train wont use (i would assume) all of its power when driveing 125kmh
16:51<@planetmaker>DJNekkid: yes. And that is directly checked by the speed
16:51<Rubidium>it could while accelerating
16:51<DJNekkid>Rubidium: my point exactly
16:51<DJNekkid>and why i dont think i should do: if between <this> and <that>
16:51<Rubidium>but neither would it use all its power when at 300 km/h
16:52<@planetmaker>ok, then an overloaded train at 120km/h on high-speed tracks is more expensive to run than on a side line?
16:52<DJNekkid>but in the 'game reality' i think we could assume so
16:52<@planetmaker>sounds... quite fishy
16:52<+michi_cc>4A is defined as a DWORD so there would be enough space to also return the max speed of the tracks, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort only for 2ccset running costs.
16:53<DJNekkid>Here is the idea anyway:
16:53<DJNekkid>planetmaker: i think that a TGV would need QUITE ALOT of wagons to go at 120kmh:P
16:54<DJNekkid>The basis of the idea is the game me and ChillCore is currently playing
16:54<DJNekkid>where i had a very high speed mainline between some cities
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16:54<DJNekkid>but one that had a 180kmh sideline grew quite abit
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16:54<DJNekkid>and i felt that it should have its own intercity trains
16:55<@planetmaker>still I maintain that depending on track type is not really sensible
16:55<DJNekkid>and thus TGV's
16:55<@planetmaker>why would the kirby paul be more expensive to run on a hst than on the 80km/h track?
16:55<DJNekkid>it wont
16:55<DJNekkid>its only 'high' vs 'lower'
16:55<DJNekkid>'higher' vs 'lower'
16:57<Rubidium>there should be like 3 components to the running cost: time based running cost (personel), distance based (wear), speed based (power consumption)
16:58<Rubidium>though I guess for ease you could scrap the distance based component
16:58<DJNekkid>but if i base the decision on the top speed of an actual track it will break at the minute you change the low speed (125kmh) tracks max speed to more or less then 125
16:58<DJNekkid>and thus would the current track type be smarter
16:58<DJNekkid>Rubidium: i also count the 'wear' as 'speed'
16:59<DJNekkid>as 300kmh operations would wear down stuff more then i.e. 125kmh
16:59<@Alberth>just keep it fixed, maintenance of high-tech trains is high no matter how you use them. In fact, by lowering costs you kill the idea that you need to get an engine matching your tracks
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17:00<Rubidium>Alberth: but then the "smart" thing to do is just fill the map with high speed track as it doesn't matter anyway
17:00<DJNekkid>that is also why top speed is a quite big part of the running cost in the 2cc set
17:00<DJNekkid>with power as the 2nd main component
17:01<@Alberth>and with high-speed trains, as running them at slower tracks is just as cheap as a slower engine
17:01<Rubidium>but giving the user a (small) choice to let the high speed train, at reduced cost, run at the same speed as the normal traffic on a relatively small side line sounds "good"
17:01<DJNekkid>Alberth: it might be, but when 1 tile of 'unlimited' speed track cose 10k £, and 1 tile of 180kmh track cost 1k (iirc)
17:04<DJNekkid>Rubidium: that was also my thought :)
17:04<DJNekkid>and IRL that happens quite often
17:05<DJNekkid>TGV's and similars use the 'old' tracks from abit outside a city and into the station, and then on separate high speed tracks inbetween them
17:13<DJNekkid>get his patchpack and the latest 2cc-set nightly and come and see what i mean :P
17:15<@Alberth>are default industries forced to be available?
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17:18<andythenorth>good night
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17:36<dihedral>Rubidium, regarding fs4464 - would it make sense to make use of the move handling?
17:37<dihedral>and move the client to spectators locally after the bankruptcy handling
17:39<Rubidium>if you can ensure that the move command gets to the clients on time
17:39<Rubidium>but you can't
17:39<dihedral>i thought this assert was only the case when the local company went bankrupt
17:40<Rubidium>but local to the "client"
17:40<@Terkhen>good night
17:40<Rubidium>night Terkhen
17:41<dihedral>yes, so the move does not have to go by all other servers because the other clients handle the bankruptcy correctly already
17:41<dihedral>or am i confusing something (yet again)
17:41<Rubidium>oh, but it uses the client-to-spectator move methodology
17:42<Rubidium>problem is that it happens at a moment where that move won't work at all
17:42<dihedral>move beforehand? :-P
17:42<Rubidium>that would mean before the state game loop
17:42<Rubidium>which is kinda troublesome
17:43<Rubidium>as at that moment we don't know the next quarter is started
17:43<Rubidium>and as such we don't know that the company could be bankrupt
17:43<dihedral>or we delay the bankruptcy with a type of 'callback' till after the move
17:43<dihedral>and instead trigger the move
17:44<dihedral>the move will, after performed, correctly handle the bankruptcy
17:44<Rubidium>problem: can't change local company in StateGameLoop
17:44<Rubidium>problem: must do bankruptcy in StateGameLoop
17:44<Rubidium>solution: uhm...
17:45<dihedral>yes :-P
17:45<dihedral>why does bankruptcy have to be handled in StateGameLoop? and not during a time where local company can be changed?
17:46<Rubidium>because the date is changed in the StateGameLoop
17:46<dihedral>would it not suffice to set a flag
17:46<Rubidium>which triggers all the daily/monrthly/yearly stuff
17:46<Rubidium>which triggers the bankruptcy check
17:47<Rubidium>and doing that check almost 7000 times more than needed is somewhat a problem
17:47<Rubidium>*especially* as the bankruptcy check updates a counter
17:47<dihedral>if it's just a multiplayer issue, let the server send out a bankruptcy packet :-P
17:48<Rubidium>if that packet arrives too late the client tries to execute a command as non-existant local user and: boom!
17:48<dihedral>which is the same with the move command
17:49<dihedral>and the move probably happens more often than the bankruptcy
17:49<dihedral>and this could still be handled server side, adding a check to incomming packets
17:50<Rubidium>how can locally dereferencing an invalid company = NULL pointer be checked server side?
17:50<dihedral>client status which gets set, a bankruptcy packet from server to clients and a corresponding ack packet to the server from the affected clients to set their client status back again
17:51<Rubidium>the move command is not handled in the StateGameLoop, thus it goes alright
17:51<Rubidium>sending a bankruptcy packet from the server gives you all kinds of trouble w.r.t. syncing
17:51<Rubidium>unless, ofcourse, you send the actual command
17:51<Rubidium>but that seems to be complicating stuff quite a lot
17:51<@Yexo>TrueBrain: returns 502 bad gateway
17:52<dihedral>would have to be a command, to keep it in sync with everything else, yes
17:52<@Yexo>it's not used a lot, but it'd be nice to keep it running until all projects are moved
17:57<Rubidium>dihedral: doing the command would probably be quite easy... but...
17:57<Rubidium>only the server may execute it
17:57<Rubidium>and it might be somewhat troublesome for single player
17:58<Rubidium>as it'd be executing a command in the state game loop
17:58<Rubidium>though... hmm... in SP you can't go bankrupt
17:58<Rubidium>so the command is never called with SetLocalCompany
17:59<dihedral>though it might be interesting to fix it in a way that could allow bankruptcy in sp too
17:59<dihedral>as 'loosing' a game also belongs to the gameplay
18:00<dihedral>and personally i'd probably prefere a solution without a docommand :-P
18:00<dihedral>but it sounds to be very hard to find exactly that
18:01<Rubidium>well, bankruptcy uses a DoCommand already, just not a DoCommandP
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18:12<dihedral>what if the brankruptcy progress just took a little longer? i.e. set a bankrupt flag, if set do not allow the company to send further commands, and process the bankruptcy once it's ok to change local company
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18:13<dihedral>i think i just triggered my own dja-vu
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18:18<Rubidium>oh lovely..
18:18<Rubidium>it also fails with a DoCommandP
18:19<Rubidium>which is bad as well
18:19<thomas001>hi, i am running 1.1.0-beta5. there seems to be an audio mixing bug on windows: the music volume affects the sound volume as it also scales the sound volume, so sound is always quiter than music. especially when you set music volume to zero there is also no sound.
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18:20<Rubidium>thomas001: then Windows is mapping both to the same thing and OpenTTD can't do much about that
18:21<thomas001>Rubidium, but i can have no sound, but music
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18:22<thomas001>it feels like actual music volume = (set music volume); actual sound volume = (set music volume)*(set sound volume)
18:23<Rubidium>then I'd guess the midi playback device is setting the global volume and the wav playback device is setting only the wav volume
18:24<thomas001>that whould be an explanation, can openttd do sth about this?
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18:25<Rubidium>not that I'm aware; you could try "the other" midi playback, but I don't know which of the two it is and which other bugs that might trigger
18:26<thomas001>that do you mean by "the other"?
18:26<Rubidium>OpenTTD supports two APIs for midi playback
18:26<Rubidium>you're now using one, you might have luck with "the other"
18:28<thomas001>how to switch?
18:29<Rubidium>there's a command line switch/setting for it
18:29<dihedral>openttd.exe /?
18:29<dihedral>or is it still --help
18:30<thomas001>hmm it lists only "win32" as available music driver
18:30<thomas001>--help worked
18:31<Rubidium>64 bits OpenTTD/Windows?
18:31<@planetmaker>good night
18:31<dihedral>good night planetmaker
18:31<thomas001>gn8 planetmaker
18:32<Rubidium>thomas001: ah, then Windows doesn't have "the other one"
18:32<Rubidium>unless you switch to the 32 bits binary
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18:33<thomas001>ok so basically its a flaw in windows' midi implementation and i am stuck with it until i switch to 32bit?
18:33<thomas001>(32bit openttd)
18:33<dihedral>what forces bankruptcy to be processed in that StateGameLoop and not at a time where local company may be changed?
18:36<Rubidium>I already told you that...
18:36<dihedral>snap! sorry about that
18:36<Rubidium>when would *you* trigger a quarterly bankruptcy check?
18:37<Rubidium>maybe at like the moment you get into a quarter?
18:39<dihedral>trigger the check != processing
18:39<Rubidium>then you need to maintain whether tou need to process it
18:39<z-MaTRiX>found another target linux system
18:39<dihedral>Rubidium, yes, but is that not easier?
18:39<Rubidium>seems a "bad" approach to me
18:40<dihedral>hello, z-MaTRiX
18:40<Rubidium>dihedral: DoCommandP does that already
18:40<dihedral>what have you found, z-MaTRiX
18:41<z-MaTRiX>based on rhel
18:41<z-MaTRiX>put together by Fermilab, CERN
18:42<dihedral>yes, i saw what it was based on :-P
18:42<z-MaTRiX>seems like more suitable to me than centos
18:43<dihedral>seems to me like it'd make no difference
18:43<z-MaTRiX>(i am testing it right now)
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18:44<dihedral>Rubidium, what problem did the DoCommandP then have?
18:44<z-MaTRiX>you mean the core is basicalla the same?
18:44<dihedral>you said it still shoed the same issue?
18:44<dihedral>how come then?
18:45<dihedral>z-MaTRiX, grml is another linux distribution :-P
18:45<z-MaTRiX>i have a grml livecd and was unable to boot
18:46<dihedral>anyway - i shall get my rest
18:46<dihedral>have a good night
18:46<z-MaTRiX>this is probably because i only have magical hardware
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19:00<rieksts>Hi, is there any way to turn off messages about vehicles becoming old, while keeping other usefull messages on?
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19:02<@Belugas>FUCK FUCK FUCK
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19:03<rieksts>Have fun
19:03<z-MaTRiX>rieksts: sure
19:04<z-MaTRiX>either turn off at the messages or delete from mthe source and recompile
19:05<z-MaTRiX>there is also a setting vehicles never expire i remember
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19:06<__ln__>beware, the last time the US started a war on Canada because of the word 'fuck', as we all remember from the documentary.
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19:10<z-MaTRiX>haha Belugas that is a reason to go home in, or next to the laboratory
19:11<z-MaTRiX>nothing lik 10 seconds to go home ;>
19:12<z-MaTRiX>latest openttdsvn build took real 3m26.444s user 2m25.944s sys 0m21.179s hmmm ;>
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22:10<rieksts>z-MaTRiX: the vehicles never expire option is on. I think this is nothing but an onnoyance if breakdowns are disabled. There should be an option to turn old vehicle messages off, i cant elieve that i am the only one who finds this annoying.
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>rieksts: you can turn off all vehicle messages
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>in the news settings
22:17<rieksts>yes, but as I said earlier i would like to keep the usefull ones
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22:42<Eddi|zuHause>i only know settings about checking timetables and profits. but it should be easy to add another one for age
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22:54<rieksts>is there any place i can put a suggestion for devs?
23:04<Eddi|zuHause>here, the forum, the bug tracker
23:21<rieksts>ok, thank you for help.
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 05 00:00:44 2011