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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-05

---Logopened Sat Feb 05 00:00:44 2011
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00:51<Pikka>that peter1138's a spy!
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03:20<Ammler>Guten Morgen :-)
03:28<andythenorth>morningz
03:37<dihedral>good morning
03:39<@Terkhen>good morning
03:49<dihedral>Rubidium, is the mention of the move command in fs4464 the reason why it asserts or just a simple way to reproduce the assert?
03:50<dihedral>my fear would be the move command being responsible for it
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04:05<andythenorth>busy busy busy: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln.png
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04:13<@Alberth>smokin' !
04:13<@Alberth>moin andy
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04:16<@planetmaker>moin
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04:49<Rubidium>dihedral: yes, the move command causes the same assertion as well
04:49<Rubidium>though slightly due to different circumstances
04:49<Rubidium>hmm, well partly...
04:50<Rubidium>the precondition to reset a company (no clients) was met so the command is sent
04:50<Rubidium>with the move command you put someone in the company
04:50<Rubidium>which triggers the same assertions as the initial bankruptcy problem
04:52<Rubidium>and now I look at it... it might even be the case that merging (buying shares) causes trouble
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05:09*andythenorth does hope to ship FIRS 0.6 soon :)
05:09<@Alberth>is FISH ready for that job?
05:10<@Alberth>perhaps you should extend HEQS with http://www.sinotrailers.com/
05:11<@Alberth>cargo: 'building' :)
05:14<andythenorth>heh
05:20<@planetmaker>hehe. I once drove a road, then a care with the sign "house ahead" drove in front of me. two curves later, I saw that it actually was true...
05:20<@planetmaker>a half house was driving on such truck in front of me
05:20<@planetmaker>s/care/car/
05:20<@Alberth>so they lied :)
05:20<@planetmaker>funny thing was that still curtains etc were in the windows...
05:21<@planetmaker>hehe, yes :-P
05:22<@planetmaker>though maybe the other half was in front of that. It was impossible to look past that ;-)
05:22*andythenorth awaits a delivery from Mr MacKellar
05:22<andythenorth>1x iron works is expected at noon
05:23<@planetmaker>\o/
05:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth: as replacement for the steel mill? Or another industry?
05:23<andythenorth>another industry
05:23<andythenorth>MB was right about the early metal chain
05:23<@planetmaker>in what way?
05:24<andythenorth>he said it should be two processing industries not one
05:24<andythenorth>I thought I knew better
05:24<andythenorth>but I was wrong in this case
05:25<@planetmaker>aye
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05:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21969 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Introduce 'minimal' number of industries as a replacment for the old 'none' setting in the newgame window.
05:29<andythenorth>^ what does it do? sounds good...
05:29<@Alberth>it behaves mostly like the old 'none' setting, except it starts with all forced industries instead of 0 industries
05:30<@planetmaker>what the name says :-)
05:30*andythenorth likes
05:31<@Alberth>perhaps you can explain why it is a good setting
05:31<@planetmaker>:-D
05:31<andythenorth>I prefer the word 'minimal' :P
05:31<@planetmaker>'none' still remains ;-)
05:32<andythenorth>heh
05:32<@Alberth>ie what's the point of starting without industries if you aim to set up industry cargo chains?
05:32<andythenorth>dunno
05:32<andythenorth>make money on PAX, then fund industry?
05:32<andythenorth>maybe some people like that
05:33<@Alberth>that I can understand, which is what the current 'none' does
05:33*planetmaker should de-compile av8... for easier alignment of the new OpenGFX planes
05:34<@Alberth>nmlc -d -i av8.grf -o ac8.nml ? :p
05:35<@planetmaker>:-P
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05:35<@planetmaker>I just grep-awked the current aircrafts somewhat from nfo to nml ;-)
05:36<@planetmaker>-s
05:36<andythenorth>cunning
05:36<@planetmaker>real sprites are easy, you know ;-)
05:38<andythenorth>planetmaker....I need sometime soon to face that cb28 patch :(
05:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21970 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#4464]: Crash when a multiplayer company goes bankrupt with 'you' in it
05:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21971 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix (r21969): Subversion auto-increments revision on commit.
05:39<@planetmaker>uhm... you mean the layout selection? Or what was cb28?
05:39<andythenorth>well there are two approaches
05:39<andythenorth>one is to be able to specify layout
05:40<andythenorth>the other is to have cb28 cycle through layouts until one is allowed (or end if none)
05:40<andythenorth>frosch thought the cb28 route was better
05:40<@planetmaker>so do I :-)
05:40<andythenorth>he thought it already *should* do that
05:40<andythenorth>i.e. it's out of spec
05:40<@planetmaker>I'd prepare (internally) a list of allowed layouts and then pick one from that
05:41<@planetmaker>but it's a bit convoluted
05:41<@planetmaker>I looked briefly at it the other day, but then decided that sleep was the better option
05:41<andythenorth>it seems to be a case of moving some code to 1 or 2 new functions
05:41-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009cd6.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
05:42<andythenorth>and changing the existing loop
05:42<andythenorth>quak
05:42<@planetmaker>quak :-)
05:42<@Alberth>quak
05:42<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, somewhat. A function like GetPermissibleLayout() or so should be in order
05:42<andythenorth>I wish I could find the transcript I save :P
05:43<andythenorth>frosch123 gave instructions in it :|
05:43<frosch123>moin :)
05:43<@Alberth>computers just shift the problems from not having information to not being able to find it :)
05:44<frosch123>iirc you just had to pass the layout number through a bunch of functions, and move the calling of cb 28 to an earrlier place
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05:45<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
05:45<Wolf01>hello :D
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05:46*Alberth makes room for JOHN-SHEPARD
05:47<JOHN-SHEPARD>;_;
05:52<frosch123>why do we have so many users who harrass other fs reporters, whenever there is a crash report and the log contains the line "grf config changed"? esp. when it is very doubtful the crash is caused by that :s
05:53<Wolf01>do an automatic check for "grf config changed" and reject the bug report with a red error box
05:53<@Alberth>trying to be helpful, but utterly clueless ?
05:53<frosch123>Alberth: but it annoys me (dih in this case btw :p )
05:54<frosch123>if you yell at somenoe else you should at least know what you are talking about
05:54<@Alberth>there are more users that add comments about bugs not always relevant to the problem
05:55<@Alberth>frosch123: you do? Thizz iszz tze internet man!
05:56<@Alberth>I sometimes add comments about such actions :)
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06:08<dihedral>frosch123, i take your point, and i was not trying to be helpful to be honest
06:08<frosch123>:)
06:08<frosch123>no problem
06:08<dihedral>but i'll refrain from such comments in the future ;-)
06:10<dihedral>however i would not be surprised if people in the forums stumble across that bug report and complain about it not being 'allowed' without setting the developer tools thingy
06:11<dihedral>however crashes being supported in bugs. :-P
06:13<@Terkhen>but OpenTTD shouldn't segfault because of that
06:13<dihedral>true :-(
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06:35<FauxFaux>What's traffic? ¬_¬
06:35<FauxFaux>FUUU
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06:42<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21972 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt table/settings.h): -Fix: Replace 'None' industries in the generation window with more descriptive label.
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06:43<DanMacK>Hey all
06:47<@planetmaker>moin DanMacK
06:48<DanMacK>'tis morning, very early morning :P
06:48<@planetmaker>he, quite for you
06:49<@planetmaker>and that on the weekend!
06:51<DanMacK>yeah...
06:52<DanMacK>and long shift today :P Gonna be fun, lol
06:55<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_2.png
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>i had to get up early today as well ;)
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07:03<@Alberth>a bit massive, isn't it, Andy?
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07:09<andythenorth>it's tall yes
07:11<andythenorth>Alberth: it fits with other buildings ;)
07:11<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_size.png
07:12<@Alberth>from a somewhat different style/era :)
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS buildings in general seem to be fairly tall
07:13<andythenorth>they are
07:14<andythenorth>but they're scaled to houses
07:14<andythenorth>and default industries ;)
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>it looks out of proportion when they are in the middle of empty space
07:14<andythenorth>oh well
07:14<andythenorth>too late now :P
07:15<andythenorth>it would seem odd to draw them at a different scale to the rest of the game
07:15<andythenorth>'scale' being somewhat flexible I know
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>the houses have different scales all over the place
07:16<@Alberth>would it get better if you leave out a few chimneys? (so there is a bit more empty room between them)
07:16<andythenorth>maybe
07:17<@Alberth>but all pixels would need to be moved then :(
07:17<andythenorth>it's a funny looking thing anyway: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4121903769_73bf68cab3.jpg
07:18<andythenorth>I think it will look better once there are shadows under it
07:18<andythenorth>currently it is hovering a bit
07:18<andythenorth>i.e. doesn't look like the structure is connected to the ground
07:23<@Alberth>yeah that will help a lot
07:27<andythenorth>FIRS website shows nearly as many industries deprecated as included
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07:33<@Alberth>once you passed that point, you must make a FIRS:the original grf
07:35<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the better structure might be: make one industry list per (major) version - and skip all deprecated stuff
07:35<@planetmaker>better overview and one can still go back in time by viewing the stuff in other (older )versions
07:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'll rework that website one day to do that :)
07:36<andythenorth>although...it kind of does ;) http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies
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07:44<andythenorth>Alberth: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_3.png
07:44<andythenorth>no chimneys
07:44<andythenorth>it's easier on the eye
07:44<andythenorth>the chimneys were too much
07:45<@Alberth>doesn't a kiln need some chimneys?
07:45<andythenorth>in RL yes
07:45<andythenorth>but it's whatever looks best here...
07:45<andythenorth>I'll try drawing a smaller chimney for it
07:45<andythenorth>or different colour
07:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: is it possible to have quarry / dredging site be the same industry?
07:45<andythenorth>planetmaker: I wondered that
07:45<@planetmaker>(just a random idea to save a slot ;-) )
07:46<andythenorth>I can't see how to resolve that to one string
07:46<andythenorth>is one problem
07:46<andythenorth>'stone / sand supply'
07:46<andythenorth>?
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07:47<@planetmaker>Hm...
07:47<andythenorth>the other issue is that 'build on water' is simply an action 0 flag property
07:48<andythenorth>there would need to be tile checking code written with cb2f to replace it
07:48<andythenorth>it's logical, but maybe not best use of available time?
07:49<@planetmaker>probably not :-)
07:49<@planetmaker>and there's still 20 slots free :-P
07:50<andythenorth>slots fine
07:50<andythenorth>minimap is a bit hard to use though :(
07:50<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=928587#p928587 <-- DanMacK :-)
07:51<@planetmaker>I'm still not sure about the Darwin300 size, though
07:52<andythenorth>heh
07:52<andythenorth>I need to add fruit processor
07:52<andythenorth>accepts: fruit
07:52<andythenorth>produces: fruit juice
07:52<andythenorth>jam
07:52<@planetmaker>wine.
07:53<@planetmaker>schnaps
07:53<@planetmaker>:-)
07:54*andythenorth ponders a baking economy
07:54<andythenorth>with flour, sugar and butter as cargos
07:55<andythenorth>salt
07:55<andythenorth>sodium bicarbonate
07:55<andythenorth>yoghurt :P
07:55<andythenorth>chocolate
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07:55<andythenorth>*that* would rebalance coal
07:56<V453000>beer should be the most expensive cargo anyway
07:56<V453000>and accepted by HQ
07:56<andythenorth>:o
07:56<andythenorth>that reminds
07:56<andythenorth>I was going to add beer as a cargo to FIRS
07:56<andythenorth>there's room
07:57<V453000>no shit! :)
07:57<@SmatZ>beer!
07:59<@Terkhen>indeed, the HQ should accept beer
07:59<V453000>andythenorth: I think it would be a favorised change to FIRS :p
08:00<andythenorth>I've been trying to keep 3 cargo slots free
08:00<andythenorth>but it might be worth giving one up for this
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08:00<@Terkhen>beer economy?
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08:01<V453000>^
08:01<V453000>^
08:01<V453000>^
08:01<andythenorth>malt
08:01<andythenorth>hops
08:01<andythenorth>barley
08:01<andythenorth>sugar
08:01<V453000>:))
08:01<andythenorth>there would need to be a new PAX-like cargo
08:02<andythenorth>'drunks'
08:02<andythenorth>label: PISD
08:02<V453000>:D
08:02<andythenorth>bah
08:02<V453000>drunkard economy
08:02<V453000>me likes
08:02<andythenorth>NARS 2 regearing was very smart, but it wastes a cargo slot :|
08:02<andythenorth>there should be a better way
08:03<andythenorth>is BEER an express cargo?
08:04<@planetmaker>One cargo slot should not hurt really. There'll always be one too few
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08:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'd think rather not.
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08:08<andythenorth>BEER: liquid express
08:09<andythenorth>piece goods?
08:09<@planetmaker>yes
08:09<@planetmaker>barrels or crates
08:09<@planetmaker>(crates with bottles)
08:09<dihedral>pipelines
08:10<@planetmaker>:-P
08:10<@planetmaker>you wish!
08:10<dihedral>:-D
08:10<dihedral>my friends call me 'sahid' :-P
08:12<andythenorth>BAH
08:12<andythenorth>I have to edit the TTDP wiki now
08:12<andythenorth>to add BEER to cargo labels
08:12<@Terkhen>:D
08:16<frosch123>beer? isn't that just food?
08:16<V453000>no way
08:17<frosch123>i see, express, piece goods, refridgerated :p
08:17<V453000>and beer
08:17<@Alberth>-20 degrees celsius should be enough :)
08:18<andythenorth>there should be a variation depending on language
08:18<@planetmaker>hm... beer-ice
08:18<andythenorth>british english doesn't require refridgerated
08:18<andythenorth>:P
08:18<V453000>that is done only with bad beer ... so that you dont feel how bad it is when it is cold :)
08:18<@planetmaker>lool @ andythenorth
08:19<andythenorth>I prefer cold beer
08:19<V453000>sure, but frozen beer isnt that good :p
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: have you seen asterix? ;)
08:21<andythenorth>I have read the books :)
08:26<@planetmaker>better than the movies anyway ;-)
08:31<andythenorth>would someone figure out how to make HQ accept beer?
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>has anyone ever tried to make an "economy" without any cargos at all?
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>and checked how horribly it breaks things? :p
08:39<@Alberth>we'd all go bankrupt
08:43<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21973 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Fix: Redraw the town authority window after modifying town authority settings.
08:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r21974 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Add a setting to enable/disable funding local road reconstruction.
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08:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: easier would be to just modify the cargo payment rates.
08:50<dihedral>Terkhen, that sonds great :-)
08:51<dihedral>*sounds
08:51<@Terkhen>thanks, I was sick of doing that by mistake :)
08:52<dihedral>especially good for multiplayer servers :-)
08:53<@Terkhen>is there any other town authority action that could be harmful on multiplayer without a setting?
08:54<Rubidium>technically town growing can harm multiplayer
08:54<dihedral>iirc exclusive rights already has a setting, and advertising campain has an influence when competing
08:55<@Terkhen>hmm... advertising campaing sounds harmless enough for me
08:55<@Terkhen>fund new buildings could get a setting too just for consistency
08:56<frosch123>that setting is very useful in desert :)
08:56<frosch123>s/setting/action/
08:56<@Terkhen>or if town growth is disabled
08:56<dihedral>it has an influence on distribution of cargo to stations though, does it not?
08:57<frosch123>anyway, imo the other stuff does not need settings
08:57<frosch123>if you want to disable advertising you could as well disable the effect of new vehicles on rating
08:58<dihedral>hehe - true :-D
08:58<frosch123>and then the engine speed, and then ...
08:58<dihedral>hehe
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09:13<Nite>Hi
09:14<Nite>typing in the service intervall for individual vehicles rather then click click click ... click click click click, wouldnt it be nice ?
09:25<@Alberth>instead of setting a good default in advanced settings?
09:50<Nite>one common default is good but does not always fit all vehicles in game.
09:54-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
09:57<Nite>it would also be quicker if you could hold the tiny buttons down and it would repeat, like holding a key on the keyboard
09:57<Nite>either way it could be faster
09:58<Nite>*busy*
09:59<@Alberth>opening a query window seems feasible, there is only one user-changable number in the widget. It's even quite trivial to do.
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10:05<Nite>when i was doing strg+klick i expected the value change in hundreds but ... you know ...
10:05<Nite>... well then i guess someday someone will do that trivial task;)
10:07<Nite>"GUI setting to disable reversing at signals" yeah! thank you! nice!°
10:08<@Alberth>changing values in hundreds is pretty useless if the default is less than 200 :)
10:08<@Alberth>(except for ships iirc)
10:09<Nite>might be true - typing in for huge changes then would be reasonable.
10:09<Nite>wait
10:09<Nite>why is it useless if you want 720 for example
10:09<Nite>anyway
10:10<Nite>i also often want it off even when its on iun the sever settings and force or order depot stops thus i often need 800
10:11<Nite>but some vehicles will still need aroubnd 150 and autoservice
10:11<Nite>either way i put it, beeing able to set it faster woudl well be faster - nicer.
10:14<andythenorth>cargo units for Alcohol?
10:14<andythenorth>Pints?
10:14<andythenorth>Litres?
10:14<andythenorth>Units?
10:14<andythenorth>Bottles?
10:15<Nite>litres?
10:15<@planetmaker>^
10:15<@planetmaker>whether I ship it in barrels or crates - what matters are still the litres shipped
10:15<Nite>agree
10:15<@planetmaker>and the vehicle anyway decides what packaging is used
10:16<andythenorth>ok
10:16<Nite>bottels could be anything from 2cl to some magnum 20liters ...
10:16<@planetmaker>:-D
10:17<@planetmaker>and then down in one the 20l bottle :-P
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10:17<Nite>so it does not descrbe how much you are actually carrying - only litres does that
10:18<Nite>- you would definately simply burst
10:19<supermop>pleasant
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10:25<Nite>boar the biggest wine bottle regularly produced is 98,5 litres
10:27<andythenorth>alcohol: worth more or less than food in a default economy
10:27<@Terkhen>depends on how bad it is :)
10:28<andythenorth>"Finest wines"
10:28<supermop>yeah, assuming alchohol taxes are not really relevant to a common carrier company,
10:28<@Terkhen>more expensive IMO
10:28<supermop>I would say a little less?
10:28<Nite>cya i'm off
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10:29<supermop>as the tax is added in at the retail phase rather than the mass production level?
10:29<andythenorth>a pint of beer is worth more than a pint of milk
10:29<andythenorth>slightly less then
10:29<andythenorth>:P
10:29<supermop>but most of the cost of that beer is tax
10:30<supermop>rather than the cost to ship or make it relative to milk
10:30<andythenorth>I'll do slightly less than food :)
10:30<supermop>(also some governments subsidize milk)
10:31<andythenorth>so who's writing code for the HQ to accept BEER?
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10:32<supermop>ha
10:33<supermop>or champagne when your performance is high enough?
10:33<andythenorth>the default cargo payment rate graph background is low contrast :P
10:33<andythenorth>it's a pleasing mid grey
10:33<andythenorth>but I've run out of good colour choices for cargos on it
10:33<supermop>i always found it hard to read even with default cargo
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10:42<@planetmaker>mostly the font there is too small IMHO
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10:57*andythenorth wonders
10:57<andythenorth>should brewery produce only alcohol
10:57<andythenorth>or alcohol and food?
10:59<@planetmaker>beer is food and no beverage :-P
11:02<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite
11:02<dihedral>sadly you cannot turn that around -> food is beer? :-P
11:02*dihedral loves marmite :-)
11:03<Rubidium>beer is nuclear waste
11:03<@planetmaker>urgs... marmite :-(
11:03<dihedral>marmite on toast - yumm :)
11:04<@planetmaker>but only when marmite is replaced by maple sirup before consumption
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11:05<dihedral>nopes
11:06<andythenorth>this is making me hungry :P
11:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21975 /trunk/src/ (5 files):
11:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Add: console command to reset the engine pool. It removes the traces of engines
11:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: which are no longer associated to a NewGRF, and can be used to e.g. 'fix'
11:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: scenarios which were screwed up by the author. You can only use it when there
11:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: are no vehicles in the game though.
11:10<andythenorth>how do I do some climate specific action 7 nonsense?
11:11<@planetmaker>just check skip the following sprites, if not the matching climate
11:12<andythenorth>I think I've got it
11:12<andythenorth>always seems clunky :P
11:12<@planetmaker>it's one line. Or two, if you define via action 10 a target to jump to. That might be safer.
11:12<andythenorth>bah
11:13<andythenorth>sugar refinery now produces coal :P
11:13<@planetmaker>:-D
11:13<@planetmaker>definitely possible. Though the intermediate stage is caramel
11:14<DanMacK>lol
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11:16<supermop>sounds fine, just have a several million year delay between delivering cargo, and production of coal
11:19<@planetmaker>;-)
11:21<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21976 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp train.h train_cmd.cpp): -Doc: Document several crash handling functions.
11:21<@Alberth>wouldn't caramel burn just as well?
11:22<supermop>well, you would need more volume of caremel to get a certain number of joules out
11:23<Prof_Frink>Marmite!
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11:36<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21977 /trunk/src/ (main_gui.cpp smallmap_gui.cpp viewport_gui.cpp window.cpp): -Codechange: Always cal Window::OnMouseWheel(), independent of viewport scroll/zoom settings.
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11:49<Nite>Hi
11:50<Nite>iam amazed how fast and smooth the 1.1.0 betas run, even when fully zoomed out
11:50<Nite>is it major code changes?
11:50<@planetmaker>no ;-)
11:51<@planetmaker>possibly you just started and empty and / or smaller game?
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11:51<Nite>no, it simply runs faster for me ... also teh saving works properly now for me
11:52<Nite>has it just gotten faster by esotherics?
11:53<@planetmaker>saving might be faster... it was better moved to a separate thread IIRC
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11:54<Nite>just was shown the "display chain" feature - "awwww"
11:55<Nite>it might take long until trying out every new feature
11:57<Nite>btw the "link to smal map" button does not jump back if u close the small map, or is it a feature i do not get?
11:58<Nite>...and, is it true i cannot laod any 1.0 game in 1.1 ?
11:59<Nite>no (to answer my own question)
11:59<Nite>just some newgrfs where missing
12:00<Nite>finding newgrfs for savegames as for multiplayer games (?)
12:01<Nite>ok worked 100%
12:01<Nite>iam so amazed by 1.1 :D
12:04<supermop>1.1 is out already?
12:04<supermop>i have not been paying much attention...
12:05<Nite>i mean the 1.1.0 beta 5
12:05<Nite>but iam sure the features in the betas mostly go to 1.1
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12:29<Nite>why are there now two little arrows in the order list ?
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12:34<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21978 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange/Fix: Remove usage of Window::top and left from IConsoleWindow::OnPaint(). Drawing is done relative to the window position. But as the position is (0,0) anyway, it was not noticeable.
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12:36<frosch123>Nite: do distinguish real from automatic orders
12:37<frosch123>if you do not know about automatic orders: build a route without non-stop orders between two stations and a bunch of stations between them, where the vehicle will halt due to not using non-stop
12:41<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21979 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Fix: Scrolling of the console in pages used wrong line height and scrolled too much.
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12:44<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21980 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Draw one line more at the top of the console, i.e. clip the top-most line if there is not enough room instead of not drawing it at all.
12:46<Nite>i do that a lot with pax frosch, so i will probably soon see what the arrows mean, i guess
12:47<Nite>i just noticed the current "train aciton view" makes artefacts when the information changes :-/
12:49<Nite>like its written over when the length changes due to speed changes
12:50<frosch123>you mean the statusbar of the vehicle window?
12:51<Nite>yes the bar where you start stop the vehicle ... says: "current train action" on hover/right click
12:51<dihedral>anybody familiar with sabayon linux?
12:53<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21981 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate the code and unify the bounds of console scrolling.
12:54<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21982 /trunk/src/console_gui.cpp: -Add: Wheel scrolling to console.
12:56<Nite>just saw what automatic stop is
12:56<Nite>ist also greyed out here
12:56<Nite>noice
12:58<Nite>do the automatic stops do anything new exept showing me that it is there?
12:58<frosch123>they are only information to the user, they have no effect on the vehicle's route
12:59<frosch123>(at least for now)
12:59<Nite>ok ic
12:59<Nite>(at least for now)
13:00<Nite>(converting them to real order ...)
13:01<Nite>well they have a littel use even
13:01<Nite>you can more easily skip them while a vehicle does the stop
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13:05<dihedral>frosch123, i like your commits :-)
13:08<Nite>its good that autostops are greyed out otherwise they woudl be confusing, but can i switch the display of them on or off?
13:10<frosch123>no, and it is not a good idea to hide them in general
13:10<frosch123>but one could add an option to collapse them
13:11<frosch123>like: hide all automatic orders except the current one
13:11<Nite>i always used much of the automatic(forced) orders without seeing them
13:12<Nite>only having ordered the two end stations having many in beetween
13:12<Nite>thats why my intrest
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13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r21983 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: belarusian - 6 changes by Wowanxm
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by CrazyBenny
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: estonian - 7 changes by notAbot
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
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14:10<Nite>... still the train status does not update correctly graphics wise, cannot see the exact train speed (+artefacts)
14:12<Hirundo>http://bugs.openttd.org/
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14:30<Nite>teh automatic order display sometimes accumulates showing 6 automatic orders for just one station
14:31<Nite>its messy
14:36<CIA-11>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21984 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix: Compilation without AI was broken
14:37<Nite>like this: i placed a new busstop now many buses that shared orders in that area found the stop and sudenly 6 new automatic orders where shown
14:39<Nite>and they stillfind new automatic orders even all busstations are ordered now ... every time they go to depotservice and back out ...
14:40<@planetmaker>do you play with 1.1.0-beta5?
14:40<Nite>information is good, but only when it doesent get in yor way ...
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14:40<Nite>yes i play 1.1.0 beta5
14:41<Nite>i like the ability to show automatic stops just not "always"
14:41<Rubidium>then use non-stop orders
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14:42<andythenorth>Alberth: any better? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_4.png
14:42<Nite>then vehicles woudl not stop at all
14:42<andythenorth>previous version: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_2.png
14:43<@Alberth>the green is much more friendly I think
14:43<@planetmaker>yep
14:43<@Alberth>and the darker chimneys are better
14:43<Nite>the blue is easier to spot in the grass though
14:43<andythenorth>company colour - it's randomised on construction
14:43<@planetmaker>he :-P
14:44<Nite>random is fin yeah
14:44<supermop___>i like it
14:44<andythenorth>another winner :)
14:44<@planetmaker>To me it feels very high, but that might just be me
14:44<andythenorth>I have more to do to it
14:44<andythenorth>it is high
14:44<@planetmaker>I'd cut away the upper storey
14:44<supermop___>the old neolithic one could be appropriate for early games with more noise added
14:44<andythenorth>but not higher than other FIRS buildings
14:44<andythenorth>it's just very thin :P
14:44<Nite>what is that building supposed to be?
14:44<@Alberth>I like it
14:44<@planetmaker>what the file name tells you
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14:45<Nite>ah a lime klni
14:45<andythenorth>I could knock the legs off the kilns
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14:45<andythenorth>and move it down a bit
14:45<andythenorth>I'll do that
14:45<Nite>its for ecs or firs?
14:45<andythenorth>which do you think?
14:45<Nite>ecs
14:46<@planetmaker>look up the credits of both sets...
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14:46<@planetmaker>0 points. Please sit down
14:46<@planetmaker>;-)
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14:52<Nite>i did NOT mean the automaticorder display is buged
14:53<Nite>its just logical that vehicles will find automatic stops while going back from a depot stop
14:53<Nite>but do you want this ...
14:53<Nite>stops nagging now :x
14:55<Nite>i woudl say there are two phases; one where you plan and make your orders and do not want to see autoanything popping up, and anotherone where you watch how the orders work and want to see where autostops are done ...
14:56<@Alberth>I always add all stations to the order list
14:58<Nite>even then trains might find a way to autostop - complex systems are fun
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>not when you also use non-stop when assigning all orders anyway
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>you can also use service at depot orders
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>at the stop that is nearest to the depot
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15:00<Nite>true there can be systems without any autostops at all, and many work that way ...
15:01<Nite>i use forced depots almost always
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm... need to take care of {black,gray}-furry-thing-that-is-bored-and-makes-miau
15:02<Nite>ok forced tdepot stops do not show as autodepotorder
15:04<Nite>hm ... need to take care of {blond,brunette}-skinny-thing-that-is-bored-and-> tries to paint my face with black lipstick.
15:07<andythenorth>better?
15:07<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_5.png
15:07<andythenorth>previous: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_4.png
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think it looked less tall with the intermediate level
15:08<@Alberth>the previous was more unique
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>and what is the meaning of the gray block?
15:09<@Alberth>you already have many high round tuby things
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>and is it gray or grey? i never remember right...
15:09<andythenorth>the original: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2753/4121903769_73bf68cab3.jpg
15:09<andythenorth>but there's no need to stick to RL
15:09<andythenorth>it's whatever looks best in game...
15:10<andythenorth>I think without the middle storey it just looks like a grain silo or whatever
15:10<@Alberth>yes
15:10*andythenorth reverts
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15:14<Nite>original also looks quite high ...
15:14<Nite>but right there is no greyblock
15:15<Nite>and all the windows make it special i think
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15:16<andythenorth>I'm going to add the windows
15:16<andythenorth>the grey block was a copy-paste cheat to avoid some drawing :P
15:17<Nite>how do you draw such pixelart?
15:18<@Alberth>one pixel at a time
15:19<andythenorth>Nite: you mean which app?
15:19<@Alberth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=DrawingSprites
15:19<andythenorth>or something else?
15:19<Nite>software?
15:19<Nite>app?
15:20-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:21<andythenorth>I use photoshop
15:21<andythenorth>other people use simpler tools
15:21<andythenorth>I like photoshop :D
15:22<Nite>kk adobe suit for pixelart - nice ;)
15:26<andythenorth>it's overkill
15:26<andythenorth>but I know photoshop
15:27<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21985 /trunk/src/order_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Use VehicleOrderID where appropiate.
15:28<supermop>i am same as above
15:28<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_6.png
15:28<andythenorth>less height
15:28<andythenorth>no grey block
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think we're heading in the right direction :)
15:30<andythenorth>what's this 'we' business :P
15:30<andythenorth>;D
15:30<Nite>fine now some detail (windoz)
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15:34<andythenorth>all in good time ;)
15:35<supermop>piles in the front yard?
15:35<andythenorth>piles, tanks, offices
15:35<andythenorth>a digger
15:35<andythenorth>stuff
15:37<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21986 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp engine_base.h strings.cpp): -Codechange: Add helper function to test whether an engine is still associated to a GRF.
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15:38<dihedral>frosch123, how could an engine all of a sudden not be associated with a grf anymore?
15:38<frosch123>well, associated to a present grf
15:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth: wrt #6: the choote(? - how does one spell it?) looks a bit detached to me
15:39<andythenorth>yeah
15:39<andythenorth>the perils of posting work-in-progress :D
15:39<frosch123>i.e. when grfs are missing, got removed, or incompatible
15:39<dihedral>well, 'get removed' surely should not be the case :-P
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: what if the grf author said the grf must be incompatible with any release builds?
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: then, load a game from nightly in release -> grf gets deactivated
15:41<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21987 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: Make news items, engine previews and AI preview events deal with no longer existing Engine items after resetting the pool.
15:42<dihedral>ah :-)
15:42<dihedral>interesting - why should the savegame then at all load?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: the savegame doesn't know that the grf will deactivate after loading
15:42<dihedral>would that not render a savegame only compatible to that very version of openttd in combination of grf's?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: it can only detect whether the grf is present
15:43<dihedral>i thought OpenTTD would be able to detect that - if required grf were available, before loading
15:43<dihedral>well - that is part of the loading process, ok :-P
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: "available" == "file with correct md5 is present". not "file is present and we can guarantee it won't execute an action B"
15:47<Nite>searching for missing grfs worked for me befre flawlessly with a 1.0 savegame ... btw
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15:53<Nite>cya
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16:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21988 /trunk/src/main_gui.cpp: -Change: Disable smooth scrolling for GHK_CENTER_ZOOM when zooming is also involved.
16:14<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21989 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Fix (r21954): Vehicle status bar glitches on speed changes.
16:17<V453000>hello there, is the counting of train length in depots selectable in the 1.1.0 beta5?
16:18<V453000>I mean, is it possible to swap it back to the original?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>no
16:18<V453000>uhm
16:18<V453000>okay
16:18<@planetmaker>nope. Is it needed?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>because counting halftiles is silly.
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>it has no value whatsoever in gameplay
16:18<andythenorth>it's good to practice maths :D
16:19<@SmatZ>halftiles are important for curves
16:19<V453000>well, sometimes it is actually useful to have 4.5 tile trains
16:19<V453000>and for curves
16:19<@planetmaker>4 + wagon ;-)
16:19<V453000>well, yes
16:20<V453000>the original was just much more obvious :(
16:20<@SmatZ>with short vehicles, it's not that easy
16:20<@planetmaker>and the old system wasn't accurate either as the wagon lengths are in 1/8 quantiles and... a tile has 16/8 length
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>show fractional values: 4 8/16 ;)
16:20<@SmatZ>sometimes it could even be 4+2 wagons
16:20<V453000>ok, could I ask you to make it optional?
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>should be possible to do.
16:21<frosch123>then i would prefer to display something like "4 + 3/8" or similar
16:21<V453000>that would be actually amazing, frosch :)
16:21<frosch123>"4 + 3/16" actually
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i said
16:23<V453000>could you please implement that? :) I already experienced flaws even with the older one
16:23<V453000>tropic refurbishment set had officially "4", but slowed down in some curves for 2tile trains
16:23<V453000>with the iron ore wagons which obviousl have some weird length :)
16:23<frosch123>it makes the number quite long tohugh
16:24<V453000>well, that does indeed, but if you make it optional so anyone can change it as he likes, they cant really complain :)
16:26<V453000>could even make it "4+3" and make the setting either hidden in cfg or heavily explained :p
16:26<frosch123>the idea was to remove stupid settings
16:27<V453000>that is a nice intention, but the halftile counter sometimes really helps a lot
16:27<V453000>I understand that it confused some newbies ... I personally had no problems with it even when I started with openttd
16:28<V453000>and when it counts every wagon with original trains, it makes much more sense in my opinion
16:28-!-Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i agree with all your arguments, except the last one
16:30<V453000>that is just a matter of taste I suppose :)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>the newbie will care about length of trains wrt length of station
16:31<V453000>I just like that when I click something, the numbers change, so it is obvious I did something :) just some "gui preferrence"
16:31<Rubidium>it didn't with the previous variant either
16:32<Rubidium>reliably for every non 8/8 vehicle
16:33<V453000>simply: Can I kindly ask you to make this an option one could select? Thank you
16:34-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
16:35<@planetmaker>what could be changed that roundup is used as that matters for stations
16:35<@planetmaker>(if it isn't used)
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>i think it always rounds up already
16:36<@planetmaker>at least that it goes by the same thing as station penalty
16:44<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/consistlengths.png <- looks stupid :p
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>nah, always extend to /16
16:47<frosch123>well, for normal vehicles length like 5 1/2 would be nice
16:47<frosch123>but starting with /8 and /16 it gets bad :)
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm. maybe. but remove the leading 0 then
16:48<V453000>that looks pretty neat :)
16:49-!-TruePikachu [~chris@cpe-67-49-42-88.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
16:49<TruePikachu>(wow, I'm surprised I remembered the server name)
16:50<TruePikachu>Oh great, ALSA is failing...I have to reboot...
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>thank you for these interesting and helpful statements.
16:51<V453000>good news: he is gone, bad news: he will be probably back
16:53-!-TruePikachu [~chris@cpe-67-49-42-88.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
16:53<TruePikachu>Sorry about the join/quit
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the problem with normalising fractions is that you can't easily compare the numbers in your head anymore. whether 3/4 is larger or smaller than 9/16
16:54<TruePikachu>3/4 is larger
16:55<TruePikachu>But that is ovious because 9/16 is 3/4 squared, with both between 0 and 1
16:55<TruePikachu>*obvious
16:55<@Alberth>the 'whole' part needs to be vertically aligned on its own
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>alignment may be troublesome
16:56<@Alberth>TruePikachu: before you say more, please see http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/consistlengths.png
16:56<TruePikachu>...I literally just got OTTD restarted...
16:57<ccfreak2k>Unitless numbers!
16:57<TruePikachu>O_o
16:57<@Alberth>yeah, multiply by 16
16:57<@planetmaker>ccfreak2k: [1] :-P
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>ccfreak2k: the unit is tiles
16:59<TruePikachu>Oh, I can see where you're coming from...
16:59<@planetmaker>last week I saw a marvel where units were written, but nicely ignored - with the result that the Power was written in m/s
16:59*andythenorth does order a delivery of win: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/lime_kiln_7.png
17:00<TruePikachu>I actually would advocate for 3 decimal places, but w/e
17:00<ccfreak2k>I hope the pink one is strawberry-flavored.
17:00<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: how is alignment troublesome? "/16" is fixed, so you need enough width for 0..15 and a bit white space
17:00<Wolf01>'night
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: so when you only have whole numbers, you waste a lot of space
17:01-!-planetmaker [~planetmak@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has left #openttd []
17:01<@Alberth>does that ever happen?
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17:01<@planetmaker>hm
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the pink one looks ugly
17:02<andythenorth>hey ho
17:02<andythenorth>them's the breaks
17:02<supermop>so do pink busses
17:02<@Alberth>andythenorth: looks good, but the grey windows are somewhat non-visible with all except pink and yellow-ish
17:02<andythenorth>I have code to prevent some industry colours being used
17:02<supermop>but we live with them
17:02<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/consistlengths2.png <- aligned
17:02<andythenorth>we are already spared cream and lilac / mauve colours by my code
17:04<@Alberth>frosch123: nicely readable, but so much details seems somewhat overkill to me
17:04<frosch123>yup :p
17:05<frosch123>it's too busy
17:05<@Alberth>we should have a measurement tooltip here :)
17:06<@planetmaker>hm, I notice that the buttons on the right scale... not equally
17:06<frosch123>planetmaker: yes, the hardly used ones stay small
17:06<@planetmaker>hardly?
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: looks nice, but the leading 0 is still weird
17:07<andythenorth>wow
17:07<andythenorth>lots of information :o
17:07<@planetmaker>I use them about equally if not sell all often
17:07<andythenorth>I use sell all most often
17:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: actually i readded it, as it looked weird without
17:08<@Alberth>but that is not a drop target
17:08<andythenorth>it's quite...busy
17:08<andythenorth>what is this information?
17:08<@planetmaker>consist length
17:08<@Alberth>length down to the last millimeter
17:09<andythenorth>he
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the scaling buttons are the drag&drop targets. the other ones are normal buttons
17:09<andythenorth>I hope you've got a routine to check screen dpi + resolution then :
17:09<andythenorth>:P
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17:10*andythenorth does think bed time
17:10*Alberth thinks that too
17:11*Eddi|zuHause thinks doing something sensible with the computer, but gray-furry-thing-that-makes-miau is blocking the chair
17:11<andythenorth>good night
17:11<@Alberth>good night andy
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17:12<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: doing non-sensible things is ok at this time of day
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yeah, but i have not done anything sensible all day
17:13<@Alberth>the gray-furry-thing-that-makes-miau has been claiming you all day?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>nah... people-who-want-to-be-dropped-at-the-airport-in-the-early-morning did
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17:17<__ln__>sounds like a business idea for ryanair, dropping people at the airport to save airport taxes
17:18<TruePikachu>I'm just wondering, but why is the minimum company value 2$ = 1 Euro?
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>the values are in 1£ internally. all other currencies are factors
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>so 2€, 2$, etc.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>occasionally these factors are adapted to match real world exchange rates more closely
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>but it must be whole numbers
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17:51<ABCRic>hmm...
17:51<ABCRic>channel topic needs updating :)
17:52-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.5, 1.1.0-beta5 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
17:52<@planetmaker>you were right
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18:03<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21990 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Cleanup (r14085): Remove unneeded test.
18:05<dihedral>he's on a spree today
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18:10<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21991 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4466]: The share/copy-orders-cursor was not updated to refer to the new vehicle when it got autoreplaced/-renewed.
18:10<frosch123>so much for your change-newgrfs-ingame task :p
18:11<@planetmaker>haha :-)
18:12<dihedral>hehe
18:13<__ln__>A WARNING SPOTTED WHILE COMPILING strings.cpp!!
18:14<frosch123>downgrade/upgrade your compiler
18:15<__ln__>not possible
18:15<@SmatZ>__ln__: what warning?
18:15<@planetmaker>SmatZ: I fear the usual gcc 4.0.1 warning which is bogus
18:15<@planetmaker>yes, it started to appear also there ;-)
18:15<@SmatZ>planetmaker: :-(
18:15<__ln__>'b' may be used uninitialized in this function
18:16<@SmatZ>those are invalid, and described in known-bugs.txt
18:16<@planetmaker>__ln__: yes, that.
18:16<@planetmaker>gcc 4.2 doesn't know that
18:16<@planetmaker>but it doesn't compile ppc either
18:16<@SmatZ>hmm no, not in known-bugs.txt, it seems
18:17<@planetmaker>but I remember well that we established it as compiler bug
18:17<@SmatZ>readme.txt
18:17<@SmatZ> - GNU Compiler Collection (GCC) 3.3 - 4.6.
18:17<@SmatZ> Versions 4.1 and earlier give bogus warnings about uninitialised variables.
18:17<__ln__>it certainly looks like the warning is not true.
18:18<@planetmaker>maybe it should be added to the known-bugs.txt? As old(er) osx can't work around that
18:19<@SmatZ>it's in readme.txt , in the "Compiling" section
18:19<@planetmaker>:-)
18:19<@SmatZ>anyone willing to compile openttd is expected to read that :p
18:19<@planetmaker>thanks for looking for it
18:19<@SmatZ>:)
18:20<__ln__>err, why is the "[OSX] SDL port is unuseable" listed in known-bugs.txt as a blocker for even thinking about OS X support again?
18:20<@planetmaker>it's rather an indicator than a blocker
18:21<@planetmaker>and mostly SDL was / is broken. An update to SDL solved parts of it
18:21<__ln__>i very well know what the bug is about
18:22<__ln__>"Issues prefixed with [OSX] are required to be fixed before we consider officially supporting Mac OS X again. For now it remains unsupported and
18:22<__ln__>we only apply bug fixes provided by the community but we are unable to fix these bugs ourselves.
18:22<__ln__>- 3447[OSX] SDL port is unuseable"
18:22<__ln__>it doesn't make any fucking sense in that context.
18:23<@planetmaker>Then add "[OSX] Cursor visibility issues with PPC builds" instead
18:23<__ln__>now that would be a lot better candidate.
18:24<@SmatZ>:(
18:25-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1A1AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:26<__ln__>so if somebody compiled the Windows port using SDL (which it doesn't use by default either), and found a problem, would that be a blocker for new Windows releases (which do not use SDL)?
18:30<__ln__>does anyone agree or disagree with me even a bit?
18:31<@planetmaker>well, I think you're right. And now? ;-)
18:31<@SmatZ>yes
18:31<@planetmaker>damn, I spoilt it :-(
18:31*planetmaker hugs SmatZ :-)
18:32<@SmatZ>:-)
18:32<@SmatZ>nah :)
18:32-!-lewymati [~lewymati@dynamic-78-8-158-110.ssp.dialog.net.pl] has quit []
18:33<__ln__>thanks
18:33-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
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18:35<__ln__>now could the summary of 3447 be changed to something like "[OSX] ~
18:35<__ln__>argh
18:36<__ln__>now could the summary of 3447 be changed to something like "[OSX] the unused SDL port is unusable"
18:37<@SmatZ>why does that bother you?
18:38-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC2F28.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own]
18:38<@SmatZ>it's not "unused" anyway
18:38<frosch123>"[OSX] ~ argh" sounds fine to me
18:39<__ln__>frosch123: yes, that summarizes everything very nicely
18:39<@SmatZ>frosch123: :D
18:39<@planetmaker>:-P
18:39<ABCRic>xD
18:39<__ln__>SmatZ: but it is, on OS X. you'll have to go through trouble to enable it.
18:40-!-Wazz [~wacek@dustpuppy.if.uj.edu.pl] has joined #openttd
18:40<Wazz>Hey, guys! I'm playing OpenTTD with my friends, and we're playing the tropical setting in the '70s
18:40<@planetmaker>if you can tell me why my re-structuring of the video drivers broke ppc and fixes intel, I'd be very glad to hear :-)
18:40<@planetmaker>congratulations, wazz
18:40<Wazz>There are only like 3 train car types! What's wrong?
18:40<@planetmaker>:-)
18:40<Wazz>planetmaker: ;-)
18:41<@planetmaker>Wazz: any newgrfs?
18:41<Wazz>Nope
18:41<Wazz>Well, only one that I have downloaded, but I haven't applied it
18:42<__ln__>SmatZ: i think it's good that 3447 is there and it can be shown to the occasional persons who come saying SDL should be used on OSX. but what bothers me is that that bug gets so much attention by people who do not realize the "unusable"-state is completely irrelevant in practice.
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18:42<@planetmaker>did you change any newgrfs on the map (remove)?
18:42<Wazz>I don't think so
18:42<@planetmaker>i.e. can you provide a savegame?
18:43<@SmatZ>__ln__: sorry, I don't know much about that OSX stuff :-x
18:43<@SmatZ>I just know there have been various problems with it
18:43<Wazz>planetmaker: I'll save the game and consult it with my friend taking this into consideration :-) I'll get back to you in a bit!
18:44<ABCRic>__ln__: then change it to "[OSX] [unimportant] SDL port is unuseable" :P
18:44<@SmatZ>also I think adding anything to the bug summary is not needed
18:45<@SmatZ>"[OSX] SDL port is unuseable" is true
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: well, technically it is a blocker for maintaining OSX, since because of SDL being unusable there is OSX specific code needed, but there is no OSX-specific maintainer
18:45<@planetmaker>for certain definitions of 'unusable' ;-)
18:46<@planetmaker>it's quite usuable for 'surprises'
18:46<frosch123>night
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18:48<ABCRic>'night all
18:48-!-ABCRic [~ABCRic@115.127.166.178.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: Goodbye, world...]
18:48<Wazz>planetmaker: That was it! Thanks! I've downloaded one set a friend's told me about, and I had it on the NewGRF's list, thinking it's going to ADD that set to the default set, but it's been replacing them! Thanks :-)
18:49<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: that is quite a good argument, assuming it's on the roadmap that OSX-specific code should be replaced with possibly less optimal SDL.
18:49-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@cpc7-newt30-2-0-cust37.newt.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
18:49<@planetmaker>you're welcome, Wazz
18:49<Wazz>:-)
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: well, calling it "roadmap" might be exaggerated :p
18:52<__ln__>performance is some kind of an issue with the current OSX video implementation written by smart people and Bjarni. it would be quite optimistic to assume that adding a new level of abstraction in between would not make the performance worse.
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: it's just a fact that OSX specific code causes the highest OS-specific maintenance. just count the linux-specific commits and the windows-specific commits in comparison [with or without 'MSVC complains more than GCC' commits]
18:55<perk111>It's just the fact Mac=Evil
18:55<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: might very well be true
18:56-!-goblin [~goblin@krlh-4d02165d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: gn8]
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>perk111: please don't turn this into a religious discussion. there are enough real facts.
18:57<perk111>I was not going to
18:58-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:58<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: point is also: all developers save me use either windows or linux. Thus everything they commit is automatically tested for their OS - and doesn't show as specific anywhere
18:58<@planetmaker>so this clearly must lead to a bias.
18:58<__ln__>during the existence of OpenTTD there have been three new Mac OS X versions and a change of processor architecture. only two new Windows versions during that time.
18:59<perk111>Mac is gaining popularity, but not among devs
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you can count updates to useful.zip as windows-specific maintenance
19:01<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: actually, the same has to be done for Mac OS X
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19:01<Rubidium>and building those libraries is trickier than making openttd-useful.zip
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19:02<james_o->Hi, does anyone know when variables.h was removed, and where the variables were moved to?
19:03<@planetmaker>ages ago and settings*
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19:04<__ln__>Rubidium: if we imagine for the sake of argument that the official OSX build system had been "frozen" at the state it was during the good old times (and thus 10.4 and PPC support only), do you think there would be an official OSX build now?
19:05<__ln__>no messing with evil Intel and cross-compiling, neither with all those shiny new 10.5 and 10.6.
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>james_o-: last commit to variables.h i found was r17248
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>but that is likely not the one that removed it.
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how to find that...
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>james_o-: maybe you want to ask a different question altogether though
19:09<james_o->1.0.5 had a variables.h file
19:09-!-Wazz [~wacek@dustpuppy.if.uj.edu.pl] has quit []
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>james_o-: 1.0 was more around r16000-ish
19:10<perk111>It was removed in 20192
19:10<perk111>-Cleanup: bye bye variables.h, bye bye VARDEF... you won't be missed :)
19:10<james_o->Oh, VARDEF is gone?
19:12<@planetmaker>james_o-: get a vcs and update your patch(es) step by step...
19:13<@planetmaker>like jumping 500 or 1000 revisions.
19:13<@planetmaker>or read the 3000 commit messages
19:13<__ln__>anyway, i apologize for talking on-topic things again. i'll try to avoid that.
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>depending on the complexity of the patch, rewriting may be more useful approach
19:15<james_o->Rewriting is a good idea, my variables probably shouldn't have been in variables.h
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>james_o-: read the commits leading up to the above, how to do things "properly" instead of using vardef
19:15<@planetmaker>__ln__: I'm not sure what you're mad about now...
19:16<@planetmaker>but OSX is best supported by actual code work that discussions about how serious the currently still remaining deficencies are. You may also note that there currently are official OSX builds
19:18<__ln__>planetmaker: I'm not mad.
19:20<__ln__>it's just that history shows that whenever i talk something directly OpenTTD-related here, it usually doesn't end well.
19:20<@planetmaker>sad, if that's your perception
19:21<__ln__>that's why I'm usually being 97% off-topic and everything goes great.
19:23<@planetmaker>you write cjk input and we can discuss to remove that known-bugs.txt entry :-P
19:23<@planetmaker>or rather both :-)
19:24<__ln__>also today is not one of the times when it didn't end well; just making a general remark
19:24<__ln__>CJK sounds something chinese
19:25<@planetmaker>try to enter Chinese characters. (or Japanese or Korean - that's not trivial)
19:25<@planetmaker>and API documentation I read on it is... obscure to say
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19:28*Rubidium postulates it isn't the being on-topic that makes things go haywire, but rather having Mac OS X problems as topic
19:34<__ln__>entering chinese is not an ultimate success in the Windows version either either imho.
19:35<__ln__>i do get funny onscreen menus to choose characters from, but what ends up in OpenTTD is questionmarks.
19:38<__ln__>maybe i'm missing a font. but are those chinese characters even possible to present in such a small font size as the text entry fields have?
19:40<+glx>on windows we just use the API like any other windows apps
19:42<+glx>and as we use custom drawing, an extra window to enter CJK is created
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: you must set up an unicode-capable font in openttd.cfg first. if you select chinese as language, this will be done for you automatically
19:43<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: ah, so it seems, thanks
19:44-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
19:45<__ln__>glx: does it work in fullscreen?
19:46<__ln__>now the extra window won't open anymore, all i get is latin letters... (still windowed mode)
19:49<+glx>you set the right mode in lang toolbar ?
19:49<__ln__>yeah
19:49<+glx>though in fullscreen it seems to return to alphanumeric
19:50<__ln__>hmm, restarting openttd helped, but indeed i was somehow able to make it not work a while ago.
19:55<__ln__>again it's not working. i visited fullscreen and returned this time.
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20:01<+glx>hmm after a quick look in the code it seems we don't do anything special and let windows handling that for us
20:02<z-MaTRiX_>hi
20:02<z-MaTRiX_>can someone help in linux?
20:03<z-MaTRiX_>having problem "xrandr: Configure crtc 0 failed" after issue 'xrandr --output default --mode "1280x960_60.00"'
20:03<z-MaTRiX_>(new kde does not have xorg.conf)
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX_: tried "xrandr -s 1280x960"?
20:07<Eddi|zuHause>who has 4:3 monitors anymore?
20:08*TruePikachu has a 4x3
20:08<TruePikachu>err...4:3
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>afair 1280x960 isn't even a standard mode
20:08<TruePikachu>I'm pretty sure it is
20:08<Eddi|zuHause>1280x1024 is, but it's not exactly 4:3
20:08<TruePikachu>^^ yeah, that one is confusing
20:09<__ln__>so would it be an acceptable solution to open a new, external dialog window with a text entry field?
20:09-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@a62-251-30-68.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: sounds fine to me, but i'm not an expert
20:10<@planetmaker>that's what I've seen usually happens. I expect a OS-supplied window for entering stuff which is then handed to OpenTTD
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20:11<z-MaTRiX_>hmm i have 4:3
20:12*TruePikachu wonders why OpenTTD has been taking so long to start
20:12<z-MaTRiX_>[root@matrix etc]# xrandr -s 1280x960
20:12<z-MaTRiX_>Failed to change the screen configuration!
20:12<TruePikachu>Anything changed in the boot coding between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5?
20:12<__ln__>you are root
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX_: only CRT monitors are usually 4:3. TFT monitors are typically 5:4, 16:10 or nowadays 16:9
20:13<z-MaTRiX_>hm yes su
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: your downloaded content grew?
20:13<TruePikachu>5:4 and 16:10 are new ratios for me...
20:13<TruePikachu>Eddi|zuHause: No
20:13<TruePikachu>At least, not that I know of
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: you have a large folder called "data" somwehere which is unrelated to openttd, but openttd thinks it might contain useful stuff?
20:14<+glx>__ln__: maybe I'll need to read http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee419002%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#Overriding_the_Default_IME_Behavior carefully :)
20:14<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/136336 <-- __ln__ that's what I'd expect to see somehow. The letters are underlined and space opens the selection menu you see.
20:14<TruePikachu>Eddi|zuHause: even one that's not part of the OpenTTD file tree?
20:14<z-MaTRiX_>btw got it work but does not set mode
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: one of $(pwd)/data, ~/data, /data or ~/.openttd/data
20:15<z-MaTRiX_>could not set the configuration for crtc262
20:15<TruePikachu>PWD for KDE's desktop is the desktop dir?
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: don't know.
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20:16<TruePikachu>I have no ~/data or /data
20:16*TruePikachu will go through the DLC and remove some things eventually
20:16<__ln__>glx: i suppose it would help (on windows) if the fullscreen mode was not a real fullscreen mode but a borderless screen-sized window?
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: you can try things like starting "openttd -d misc=3" or so to see where openttd searches
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: one of the advantages of true fullscreen is the change to 8bpp mode
20:18<+glx>maybe, but if we (I) can integrate IME in openttd it'll look better
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: also borderless windows might be affected by taskbar and stuff
20:20<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but with such approach you can have fullscreen OpenTTD on one screen and irc, email, whatever on second screen, and use both just by moving the mouse from one place to another.
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: personally, i just play windowed anyway
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20:24<@planetmaker>__ln__: OSX has different "full screen" modes which allows to select one monitor or another or all
20:24<@planetmaker>so I guess windows has that somewhere, too
20:24<@planetmaker>(OpenTTD just implements full screen on the 1st monitor IIRC)
20:26<__ln__>planetmaker: i've tested a patch which used the Quartz-or-something fullscreen mode on OpenTTD, and it was great. possible to apple-tab between fullscreen OTTD and other apps, first of all.
20:28<@planetmaker>he :-)
20:28<@planetmaker>but sleep is calling - so good night folks :-)
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20:29<__ln__>it's actually really evil that OTTD normally grabs all mouse and keyboard input to itself in fullscreen
20:29<@planetmaker>well, the method now employed for the windowed modes could (and should) be extended to the fullscreen driver, too
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>i know that from dosbox
20:30<@planetmaker>they share enough code to make it worthwhile
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>it captures all global kde-hotkeys, so i can't change volume or currently playing title
20:30<__ln__>planetmaker: indeed. and that's what the patch did actually...
20:30<__ln__>or rather it was the patch that also implemented the new kind of windowed mode video driver too.
20:31<@planetmaker>do I know it?
20:32<@planetmaker>or should I?
20:32<__ln__>the patch was made by a friend of mine, was rejected by Bjarni, but was later more or less applied to OpenTTD by egladil. but not the fullscreen part.
20:33<@planetmaker>hm, I see
20:33<@planetmaker>or not ;-)
20:34<__ln__>it was the era when QuickDraw was becoming deprecated and a new implementation was needed
20:34<z-MaTRiX_>ah
20:35<z-MaTRiX_>x doesnt want to set resolution
20:35<z-MaTRiX_>"Could not set the configuration for CRTC 262"
20:35<z-MaTRiX_>and "monitor: unknown"
20:36<__ln__>Bjarni rejected the patch because he considered it to be slower than the old QuickDraw implementation.
20:36<@planetmaker>oha
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 06 00:00:46 2011