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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-06

---Logopened Sun Feb 06 00:00:46 2011
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03:36<dihedral>good morning
03:41<@Terkhen>good morning
03:43<andythenorth>did I do win?
03:43<andythenorth>I prefer it to:
03:44<andythenorth>this is too much colour:
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03:46<@Terkhen>wow, nice :)
03:46<@Terkhen>I also prefer #8
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04:01<dihedral>i like #9 :P
04:02<dihedral>with #8 i needed a second look to determin the colour :P
04:02<dihedral>with #7 i needed a second look to get past the colour :-D
04:03<andythenorth>dihedral: he :)
04:03<dihedral>anyway - i am of to church
04:04<Rubidium>I thought you were member of the Holy Site of Transport Tycoon... but no... he fancies another holy site as well ;)
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04:05<@Terkhen>hmmm... autorenew with HEQS trams always builds them with the lowest capacity
04:05<dihedral>LOL Rubidium :D
04:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: it doesn't maintain the refit on renew?
04:06<andythenorth>I thought subtype refits were preserved...
04:07<Rubidium>if the refits are considered the same
04:07<@Terkhen>it seems that it selects the first appropiate one
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04:09<Rubidium>and "considered the same" = same cargo substring (ID)
04:14<@planetmaker>nice lime kilns, andythenorth :-)
04:14<@planetmaker>Possibly you could use both colour-reduced versions?
04:14<@planetmaker>As alternate designs?
04:14<@planetmaker>But either is fine for me
04:15<@planetmaker>i.e. I can't decide ;-)
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04:23<andythenorth>about done for now
04:24<@planetmaker>kudos, andythenorth :-)
04:25<@planetmaker>one thing I wonder about though: the ground tiles. Would they be concrete really?
04:26<@planetmaker>what about making the lower left two ones use the default ground tile (i.e. grass in the screenshot)?
04:26<@planetmaker>and maybe some dirt overlay?
04:26<@planetmaker>or is that for a later version? ;-)
04:26<andythenorth>this can go in 0.6
04:26<andythenorth>I'll play a few games until I know what annoys me about it
04:26<andythenorth>then I'll fix it
04:27<andythenorth>then probably breaking savegames due to layout changes :P
04:27<andythenorth>(could be fixed by cb28 handling)
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04:29<@planetmaker>Well, I think a general 'issue' with FIRS are the boring ground tiles for many processing industries
04:29<@planetmaker>Farms, sand pits, fishing grounds - they blend in nicely :-)
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04:44*andythenorth wonders how FIRS secondary closure works :P
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04:47<@planetmaker>time for another stable server test game?
04:47<@planetmaker>But I guess I could only have it use 0.5.5 there
04:49<andythenorth>If secondary industry closure is enabled, there is a chance of closure each
04:49<andythenorth>month if no cargo has been delivered in the previous 18 months.
04:49<andythenorth>make sense?
04:50<andythenorth>one task left
04:50<@planetmaker>one thing one can think about: make that chance map-size dependent
04:50<@planetmaker>lower chance for larger maps
04:51<andythenorth>I don't really understand the random var anyway :)
04:52<andythenorth>could adjust the NUM_MONTHS_CLOSURE_PROTECTED value by map size
04:52<andythenorth>might have bad effects on small maps
04:52<andythenorth>I need to be able to trigger arbitrary news messages
04:52<@planetmaker>nah, not the protection span - that just changes the time of the big depression on big maps
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04:53<andythenorth>I wonder if I'm doing the monthly check, or using the random production change cb?
04:54<andythenorth>looks like I'm using the random
04:54<andythenorth>so there should be less chance of mass extinction
04:54<andythenorth>planetmaker: min version is just repo version?
04:54<andythenorth>or a tag?
04:55<@planetmaker>it's the repo version
04:55<@planetmaker>or *some* repo version. It's not a tag
04:55<andythenorth>so if I'm at 1716
04:55<andythenorth>I use that?
04:55<andythenorth>or 1717?
04:55<andythenorth>(I'm about to commit the version check)
04:55<@planetmaker>uh, version check? For what?
04:56<z-MaTRiX>still no solution for crtc error ;<
04:56<@planetmaker>well, yes, just set it to the revision / repo version you're going to commit
04:56<z-MaTRiX>(linux screen resolution)
04:56<z-MaTRiX>linux hates me ;<
04:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but generally that s/should be done when you actually break it.
04:57<andythenorth>I know
04:57<andythenorth>next time...
04:57<@planetmaker>and not in a separate commit ;-)
04:57<andythenorth>keeping track of breaks is quite tricky :P
04:57<@planetmaker>k :-)
04:57<andythenorth>it's easy for a vehicle set
04:58<andythenorth>not easy for FIRS
04:58<@planetmaker>what's more difficult?
04:58<andythenorth>remembering what can cause breaks
04:58<andythenorth>and deciding whether a minor break justifies a bump
04:59<andythenorth>if I bump too often, I won't get much player feedback
04:59<@planetmaker>hm, might be, yes
05:00<andythenorth>I figure using a nightly comes with a health warning anyway
05:01<andythenorth>do I need to bump any other static info for a tagged release?
05:01<andythenorth>I'm not very up to date on action 14 stuff
05:02<@planetmaker>nah, you're fine
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05:06<kamnet>Morning. Planetmaker, are you around?
05:07<@planetmaker>moin :-)
05:07<kamnet>Do you remember what date you advanced OpenMSX from 0.3.1 to 1.0.0 ?
05:07<@planetmaker>I did not yet, did I?
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05:08<kamnet>I didn't think you had, at least not noted it in the forums, but on openttdcoop it's listed as 1.0.0 and current version 1.1.0
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05:10<kamnet>in the menu option it jumps from 0.2.0 to 1.0.0 then 1.1.0
05:10<@planetmaker>oh, that's the bug tracker you see there.
05:10<@planetmaker>And those versions are the version they need to be solved latest
05:10<@planetmaker>like "1.0.0 can only be released when this is solved"
05:11<@planetmaker>it doesn't mean 1.0.0 will be released ;-)
05:11<kamnet>Aha, I understand, thank you! I'm trying to do a right-proper update for the wiki
05:12<@planetmaker>kamnet: you get release dates also from the file date here:
05:15<@planetmaker>other than that: 0.2.1 on Mar 26 2010, 0.2.0 on Mar 13 2010 and 0.1.0 on Feb 27 2010
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05:16<@planetmaker>nice to see a wiki update :-)
05:16<@planetmaker>But I wonder whether I should call OpenMSX 1.0.0 ;-)
05:16<kamnet>Ayup long overdue. The strange things I think of doing instead of sleeping.
05:16<@planetmaker>haha :-)
05:17<kamnet>I think it would be deserving of the 1.0.0 title once every song in the collection is contributed fro within the community.
05:18<kamnet>After I've finished updating the wiki I'll go make a fuss in the forums about needing more contributions
05:18<@planetmaker>well, what's "the community" and why should a song which I like and someone gave permission to not be included if it fits?
05:19<@planetmaker>with "I like = people like". But yes, mostly I feel it could be improved. OTOH we have a full set and we can always easily progress past 1.0 ;-)
05:21<kamnet>"the community" being the players of the game and users from the forums.
05:22<@planetmaker>that'll be a very long way ;-)
05:23<kamnet>Yep, it will be. But I think it fits in with the spirit of doing a full clone of the game.
05:24<kamnet>Microprose used their own in-house talents to create the original TTD music, after all. :-)
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05:24<@planetmaker>hehe :-) - I hoped you'd start composing ;-)
05:25<kamnet>There's about a 1000x more likely chance that I end up as lead developer for NML. LOL
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05:26<kamnet>I'm the least musically inclined person in my family. My children, on the other hand, are very talented, which they get entirely from their mother's side of the family. When they get to high school next year they can actually learn MIDI.
05:26<kamnet>I'll make them start playing the game and then contribute compositions MUAHAHA.
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05:34<@planetmaker>haha :-)
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05:47*andythenorth should patch the openttd 'successful login' page
05:47<andythenorth>it's very annoying :D
05:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth: so... I should allow both industry types to close?
05:59<andythenorth>I don't
05:59<andythenorth>but I guess it's the most useful test of the code
06:00<andythenorth>I find closure tedious :)
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06:10*andythenorth wonders
06:10<andythenorth>what next :P
06:12<andythenorth>Terkhen: how did the profiling go for the functions you were unifying?
06:13<@Terkhen>andythenorth: confusing
06:13<@Terkhen>as I got unexpected results that others were not able to reproduce
06:13<andythenorth>should I try?
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06:14<@Terkhen>since I'm going to set up a "new" desktop (with old parts) I am waiting to try on it
06:14<andythenorth>maybe I try and fix cb28 again :P
06:14<@Terkhen>hmm... I don't know if the profiling script would run on osx, it uses a lot of instructions I did not know before
06:15<andythenorth>I need a coding buddy for adventures in cb 28 :)
06:20*planetmaker wonders... is 250 million cost for terraforming one tile too much? :-D
06:22<@planetmaker>getting a selection of newgrf work nicely together... can take time, too
06:23<@planetmaker>and newgrfs which require a parameter to play with a climate or with other newgrfs suck :S
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06:27<@planetmaker>hm, I think I like it that sea water is costing millions to clear
06:30<@Terkhen>planetmaker: IIRC you have to clear a water tile to build a lock
06:31<@planetmaker>well. Ships cost 16000x running cost anyway :-P
06:31<@planetmaker>in a free MP environment it has to be discouraged :-P
06:31<@Terkhen>that's like forbidding them :)
06:32<@planetmaker>quite :-)
06:32<@Terkhen>why don't you just set their number to zero?
06:32<@planetmaker>But successful people can afford a ship for leasure for their CEO
06:33<@Terkhen>oh, ok :)
06:33<@planetmaker>I once bought with similar settings a helicopter for 40 million and 4 million annual running costs - which did not quite balance its income of 100k per year ;-)
06:33<@planetmaker>just because and only to have the single aircraft ingame :-P
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06:35<@planetmaker>but fishing grounds with FISH and ships are nicer... :S
06:35<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: That's not a bad idea. Replace (one of) the subs with a luxury yacht.
06:35*andythenorth wishes he had known about 'newgame' in console for the last 2 years of testing FIRS map gen
06:35<@planetmaker>Prof_Frink: indeed :-)
06:35<@planetmaker>I totally forgot... how do submarines influence the game?
06:36<Prof_Frink>Not at all.
06:36<andythenorth>luxury yacht could be like a HQ somehow
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06:38<andythenorth>uh oh
06:38<andythenorth>I just realised I screwed up the FIRS 0.6 massively :o
06:39<@planetmaker>I'm still testing newgrf config, so no harm done for my map creation ;-)
06:39<andythenorth>I forgot to make the HQ accept Alcohol :(
06:39<@Terkhen>can you rollback?
06:40<@planetmaker>Actually I think the 'alcohol' sounds a bit too technical for the cargo - or is it mainly ethanol plant producing industrial alcohol?
06:40<andythenorth>it's so we can also have wine + rum
06:40<andythenorth>not just beer
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06:42<andythenorth>not bad
06:42<andythenorth>the HQ mod can go into 0.6.1 as a quick fix
06:42<andythenorth>there's at least one other fix needed
06:42<@planetmaker>"legal drugs" :-P
06:42<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you want to wait for 0.6.1 for the MP game?
06:43<@planetmaker>I easily could. Is it needed?
06:43<@planetmaker>I mean 0.6.1? What's wrong?
06:43<andythenorth>HQ -> beer :)
06:43<@planetmaker>uhm... sure that's possible?
06:43<andythenorth>dunno let
06:43<andythenorth>me look
06:43<@planetmaker>I don't think so. Unless you kill passengers
06:45<@planetmaker>btw, Terkhen: placing a dock costs me 300 with this base cost setting - so it's not affected by clear water costs
06:45<@planetmaker>same for the ship yard
06:45<andythenorth>are HQ grfs just using action A?
06:46<@planetmaker>yes. HQ are not newgrf-able except graphics
06:46<andythenorth>we should change that :D
06:46<andythenorth>0.6.1 will be later
06:46<andythenorth>lets not wait :)
06:47<@Terkhen>planetmaker: what about locks?
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06:49<andythenorth>(his timing is always spooky)
06:49<andythenorth>frosch123: is newgrf-HQs feasible?
06:49<andythenorth>or wise?
06:50<frosch123>what makes a hq a hq?
06:51<andythenorth>I don't know
06:51<andythenorth>I'm opening the src to find out :)
06:51<frosch123>is it just a random new object, which is unique on the map, and where the viewport jumps to when you click on "goto hq"?
06:51<@Terkhen>it also accepts cargo
06:51<@planetmaker>quak :-)
06:52<@planetmaker>Terkhen: locks are virtually unbuildable :-(
06:52<frosch123>andythenorth: that was not the question :) i know the code, but i would like to know what is the difference between a hq and a new object from the player point of view
06:52<@planetmaker>650 million per lock
06:52<andythenorth>frosch123: hq has to be unique
06:52<andythenorth>and there's a special button to build it
06:53<andythenorth>any town effect (besides PAX acceptance / production)
06:53<frosch123>and shall the player be allowed to select a hq from multiple layouts?
06:53<@Terkhen>planetmaker: perhaps it should not use the water costs for "clearing" the tiles?
06:53<andythenorth>frosch123: maybe
06:53<andythenorth>I don't find that interesting but others probably would
06:53<@planetmaker>also canals are WAY too expensive. There should be a distinction between sea water and canals ;-)
06:54<andythenorth>objects don't accept / produce
06:54<frosch123>in that case, just define a special object class "CPHQ" which is not displayed in the object gui, but in the build hq gui
06:54<andythenorth>(I think objects should accept / produce)
06:54<frosch123>but only like houses, not like industries
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06:54<@Yexo>if objects accept / produce, what makes them different from industries?
06:54<andythenorth>like houses
06:55<andythenorth>light house is a good example
06:55<@Terkhen>planetmaker: <--- you should be able to separate canal/sea costs
06:55<andythenorth>or a light ship
06:55<@Terkhen>but the lock clears the upper and lower tiles, so it ends up using the clear water cost too
06:56<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yeah, I guess I didn't set enough entries in the basecost mod :-)
06:56<@Terkhen>IIRC it was updated for these costs
06:58*andythenorth does wonder
06:58<andythenorth>what actual harm could result from new object tiles accepting / producing cargo?
07:00<@planetmaker>wow. That's nicely inconsistent: Lock costs: 500 million when placing on plain slope
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07:01<@planetmaker>if build a canal on the upper and lower tile for 8000 each - then the lock costs only 50k
07:01<@planetmaker>price difference: factor 1000
07:01<andythenorth>if objects could accept / produce, is that a cheat opportunity?
07:01<@planetmaker>actually 10000
07:03*planetmaker investigates
07:08<@Terkhen>planetmaker: DoBuildLock in water_cmd.cpp
07:08<@planetmaker>just testing fix :-)
07:08<@Terkhen>probably line 222 :)
07:08<@Yexo>cost.AddCost(_price[PR_CLEAR_WATER]); <- that is strange imo
07:08<@planetmaker>two lines
07:08<@Terkhen>but I do remember some logic for keeping that
07:08<@planetmaker>quite. And should be PR_BUILD_CANAL
07:08<@Terkhen>what if it is clearing a sea tile?
07:09<@planetmaker>then that line isn't called
07:09<@Yexo>it's never clearing a sea tile
07:09<@Yexo>it's only added when the tile _is not_ water already
07:09<@Terkhen>hmm... right
07:09<@Terkhen>then it should be PR_BUILD_CANAL, yes
07:10<@planetmaker>works nicely :-)
07:11<@Yexo>ah, PR_BUILD_CANAL is one of the "new" basecosts
07:11<@planetmaker>yes, so it's a sort of oversight when that was added
07:11<@Terkhen>I do remember some discussions about this, but changing this makes sense
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07:15<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r21992 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_order.cpp ai_order.hpp): -Fix [FS#4467]: AIs trying to change the AIOF_GOTO_NEAREST_DEPOT flag for existing orders triggered an assert. Explicitly forbid this as precondition for SetOrderFlags
07:16<CIA-11>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21993 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r19720): When building a lock on dry land costs for clearing water were deducted rather than for building canals
07:16<@planetmaker>solved :-)
07:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: what rev will the MP game be on?
07:18<andythenorth>I might need to build ottd...
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07:19<andythenorth>binary for me :)
07:22<@Terkhen>planetmaker: great :)
07:22<@planetmaker>it won't help the people in the testgame :-P
07:23<@planetmaker>The other water building functions seem to reference the costs as I expect :-)
07:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth: any suggestions what I should add to the game?
07:24<@planetmaker>My current idea is to use UKRS (not UKRS2) and a somewhat Welsh scenario.
07:25<@planetmaker>at least by the town names; with UK Towns
07:25<@planetmaker>arctic climate with my rail tracks
07:26<Wolfsherz>hi, anyone has a g
07:26<@planetmaker>"g" <-- here you go
07:26<Wolfsherz>ha, sorry :)
07:26<Wolfsherz>anyone has a good suggestion on railroad tracks? the default ones are a bit dark i think.
07:27<andythenorth>planetmaker: fine
07:27<andythenorth>good and welsh :P
07:27<andythenorth>I can see wales from here
07:27<andythenorth>well, not exactly
07:27<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
07:27<andythenorth>but nearly
07:27<andythenorth>my wife is welsh
07:27<@planetmaker>Wolfsherz: I'm biased, but I recommend the Swedish ones
07:27<@planetmaker>he, then it fits :-)
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07:28<andythenorth>swedish houses?
07:28<andythenorth>expensive short and slow bridges?
07:28<@planetmaker>Why not UK Houses?
07:28<andythenorth>well....why not
07:28<@planetmaker>I've never seen the 0.2.1 ingame really - so it's sort of a test for them, too
07:29<@planetmaker>I play too few games nowadays, so I have to combine tests :-P
07:29<Wolfsherz>planetmaker, can you provide a link?
07:29<@planetmaker>Wolfsherz: online content?
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07:29<Wolfsherz>oh well, i always forget that its there :) thanks
07:29<@planetmaker>Swedish Rails 0.6.0
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07:30<andythenorth>egrvts I guess
07:31<andythenorth>what stations?
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07:31<@planetmaker>isr, city, dwe, vast
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07:31<Wolfsherz>planetmaker, excellent ones. thank you
07:32<@planetmaker>you're welcome
07:33<@planetmaker> <-- my current status of affairs; it needs re-generation, though
07:35<andythenorth> planetmaker I will await surprises when I join the game :)
07:35<andythenorth>it's one of the novelties of MP for me ;)
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07:36<@planetmaker>oki :-)
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07:52<andythenorth>tt-forums are sad :(
07:52<andythenorth>orudge: ^
07:54<@orudge>I'm quite aware
07:54<@orudge>otherwise it wouldn't be broken :p
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07:55<andythenorth>jolly good
07:56<@orudge>that's better
07:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth: parameter for FIRS: max. distance to coast for water-industries
07:57<@planetmaker>default = unlimited
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08:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: industries that build on water?
08:08<@planetmaker>fishing grounds, dredging sites
08:09<andythenorth>I have no objection to that
08:09<andythenorth>the cb28 stuff is easy to extend
08:09<andythenorth>it's practically a plug-in architecture :P
08:09<@planetmaker>I just build a lot of islands and peninsulas in order that people can reach them without going bancrupt due to expensive ships and helicopters :-P
08:10<andythenorth>just include yet another check in the cb28 pipeline
08:10<andythenorth>it's not hard
08:10<andythenorth>write a ticket :)
08:10<andythenorth>I'll happily trade it for that cb28 refactoring in trunk :D
08:11*andythenorth wonders if there's a convenient var for distance to coast
08:12<andythenorth>checking n tiles on some kind of flood pattern would be...sub optimal
08:12<frosch123>var 8b during cb 28
08:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: it should be ok that it just checks distance from north tile?
08:13<andythenorth>i.e. no point checking for every tile
08:13<@planetmaker>I just "need" it to make sure it can be within station coverage ;-)
08:14<andythenorth>blearch :D
08:14<andythenorth>use ships, that's what they're for :P
08:14<andythenorth>or use the canal - dynamite hack to build stations out on water
08:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: I could add it now if you want
08:15<andythenorth>you'd have to help make it a parameter though :)
08:15<@planetmaker>I can look at it. give me a few minutes till then, though
08:15<@planetmaker>this map is fixed ;-)
08:15<andythenorth>I'll do the cb28 part
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08:16<andythenorth>"distance to the closest empty dry land tile" <- is quite specific
08:16<andythenorth>means large towns / stations on coast would block industry construction
08:18<frosch123>that's not how it works in ottd :)
08:19<andythenorth>so the spec is wrong?
08:19<andythenorth>or ottd is wrong? :P
08:19<frosch123>the spec is unspecific as always
08:19<frosch123>and ottd behaviour is flawed as always
08:19<frosch123>e.g. it counts other industries on the water as land :p
08:20<andythenorth>that may result in bug reports for me :)
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08:57<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21994 /trunk/src/map.cpp: -Fix: Make computations of closest-land/water-distances handle waterish tiles more correctly.
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08:59<dihedral>oh - looks like frosch123 is still at it :-P
08:59*andythenorth should write that check
09:00<andythenorth>if I do distance 1 - distance 2, do I need to worry about signed bytes?
09:00<frosch123>at what?
09:00<andythenorth>I can take max (0, delta) I guess
09:01<andythenorth>there's no mod() operator in advanced varaction 2?
09:01<andythenorth>as usual, my eyes were wrong :P
09:02<andythenorth>or I should use op 12
09:04<Hirundo>That depends on what you want to achieve ... :)
09:05<andythenorth>enforce max distance from coast for water industries
09:05<andythenorth>I have the answer :)
09:06<frosch123>what difference do you want to compute?
09:06<andythenorth>distance to coast vs. some arbitrary constant
09:06<andythenorth>with a result that's easy to handle
09:06<andythenorth>op 12 will do it
09:07<andythenorth>meanwhile...could action 14 provide for a hierarchy in the newgrf menu?
09:07<andythenorth>(parameters GUI sorry)
09:07<frosch123>if someone codes it...
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09:08<andythenorth>maybe the need for a hierarchical config is the sign of a bad newgrf :P
09:10<SpComb>or the need for hierarchial newgrfs!
09:11<SpComb>isn't that how ECS works?
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09:23<dihedral>ECS works?
09:24<George>dihedral: I think yes :D
09:24<dihedral>someone has a highlight there, ey? :-D
09:25<George>An it works too :D
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09:28<andythenorth>high industries, 95% water
09:28<andythenorth>that's a fun map :P
09:28<andythenorth>nice that I figured out how to code a gap between each industry :D
09:29<frosch123>i hope you use r21994 to test that
09:30<andythenorth>not yet :P
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09:33<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r21995 /trunk/src/map.cpp: -Cleanup (r21994): Remove obsolete comment.
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09:47<Wolfsherz>hello, can the dbsetxl be used with ecs? and does it make sense to use that train set with it?
09:48<frosch123>you need to load the dbset ecs extension in addition to the dbsetxl
09:49*andythenorth is in love with 'newgame' in console :P
09:49<Wolfsherz>frosch123, thank you. and what about experts industries. should that one be disabled when using ecs?
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09:51<andythenorth>Wolfsherz: 99% definitely
09:51<andythenorth>industry sets rarely mix well
09:51<Wolfsherz>thank you
09:56<@planetmaker>the best way to learn about NewGRFs is to generate many new games. Test the current config. Then generate another new game with (slightly) changed config
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10:02<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21996 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_base.hpp: -Fix [FS#4472]: [YAPF] Under some circumstances vehicles could be lost
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10:21<dihedral>someone touched yapf
10:23<@planetmaker>probably with a long stick :-P
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10:24<dihedral>"is it still alive?"
10:24*planetmaker guesses 'yes' as it's still kicking around all those vehicles
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10:35<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the game is not up yet ;-) - we should give the people some time to finish their current one
10:35<andythenorth>ok :)
10:35<andythenorth>and in the meantime?
10:35<andythenorth>fix cb28?? :D
10:36*andythenorth visits fs
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10:43*andythenorth wonders - why industry code is more...blearch...than other code I've looked at?
10:44<dihedral>define 'blearch'
10:45<andythenorth>go read industry_cmd.cpp
10:45<andythenorth>blearch will define itself for you :P
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11:06<TruePikachu>Anyone find it a bit weird that, in the Scenerio Editor, towns can trash lighthouses?
11:10<TruePikachu>I was trying to halt town expansion in certain spots (prepping the city for an intra-city metro), but the town just ignored it!
11:12<@planetmaker>it's easy to delete houses in the SE, though
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11:14<@planetmaker>btw, you probably have activated the extra dynamite?
11:14<TruePikachu>I know, but after many expansions, you might forget where the route went...
11:14<@planetmaker>then towns can grow over industries and other stuff, destroying it
11:14<@planetmaker>light houses remain savely here and stop town expansion
11:15<TruePikachu>If you are referring to MAgic Bulldozer, I don't think it can be activated sensibily in the Scenerio Editor...
11:15<@planetmaker>it can't. But is it a savegame you edit?
11:16<@planetmaker>then I cannot reproduce your findings
11:16<TruePikachu>Yes you can - 1.0.5, build lighthouses around a town, then expand the town
11:17<@planetmaker>oh well... maybe in 1.0.5...
11:17<TruePikachu>-_- I have OpenTTD Firefox for images...
11:17<@planetmaker>I hoped you had tested at least in the current beta before you complain ...
11:19<@planetmaker>yes, in 1.0.5 it works that way...
11:20<@planetmaker>btw, you may notice that giving the exact version you ask about is always helpful ;-) - and there's never a 'latest' :-P
11:20<TruePikachu>Yes there is - trunk
11:21<andythenorth>frosch123: I can't find the transcript about how to fix cb28 to try all possible layouts before bailing when building an industry
11:21<@planetmaker>trunk is revisions 1-n with n>=21900
11:21<TruePikachu>Not even from self-compiling?
11:21<andythenorth>frosch123: can you remember
11:22<@planetmaker>TruePikachu: and how is 'latest' then clearly distinct from 'latest stable', 'latest testing', 'latest nightly' and 'current head'?
11:22<TruePikachu>Oh :P
11:22<@planetmaker>and how is 'latest nightly' clear when we talk today and tomorrow about the same thing?
11:22<andythenorth>frosch123: I think CreateNewIndustryHelper needs to try all possible layouts
11:22<TruePikachu>And commits mid-day
11:23<TruePikachu>So, what's the milestone for 1.1.0?
11:24<TruePikachu>NewGRF compatability?
11:24<@planetmaker>read the changelogs...
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11:24<@orudge>1.1.0 will feature ponies!
11:24<andythenorth>a horse farm :o
11:24<@planetmaker>and pigs! And sheep!
11:24<@planetmaker>And horse-drawn carriages
11:24<TruePikachu>They weren't in TTD
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11:25<TruePikachu>But horse-drawn are availible in NewGRF
11:25<@planetmaker>we're talking of FIRS and HEQS, right? ;-)
11:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: lets go adventuring in industry_cmd.cpp :P
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11:25<andythenorth>l1791 approx
11:27*TruePikachu goes to make a map perfect for steak, bacon, and clothing production :P
11:27<frosch123>that one?
11:28<TruePikachu>Lol @ town name generator: Darnwell
11:29<andythenorth>frosch123: thanks
11:31<andythenorth>so I need to copy these lines into the loop
11:31<andythenorth> if (HasBit(GetIndustrySpec(type)->callback_mask, CBM_IND_LOCATION)) {
11:31<andythenorth> ret = CheckIfCallBackAllowsCreation(tile, type, itspec_index, random_var8f, random_initial_bits, founder, creation_type);
11:31<andythenorth> } else {
11:31<andythenorth> ret = _check_new_industry_procs[indspec->check_proc](tile);
11:31<andythenorth> }
11:31<@planetmaker>well... we might take a look... but I'm hungry :-O
11:31<dihedral><orudge> 1.1.0 will feature ponies! <- and you are not a pony :-P
11:31<andythenorth>have a cookie ;)
11:31<andythenorth>I just had about 8
11:32<@planetmaker>rather early dinner, I think - I had early brunch ;-)
11:32*TruePikachu hasn't even had breakfast
11:33<@planetmaker>but we could make it a business dinner, andythenorth ;-)
11:33<andythenorth>I think a new function is needed that checks cb28 and CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree
11:33<andythenorth>with a return value
11:33<andythenorth>and should replace l1794
11:34<andythenorth>it needs about 1 gazillion parameters passing though :P
11:34<@planetmaker>wait, we don't talk about the selective industry layout thingy?
11:34<andythenorth>it is selective
11:34<andythenorth>not in the most obvious way
11:34<andythenorth>instead of specifying which layout to use
11:35<andythenorth>we just loop on layouts until we reach an allowed one, or all are disallowed
11:35<andythenorth>it comes to the same result
11:35<andythenorth>without much new code needed
11:35<andythenorth>and no change to newgrf spec
11:37<@planetmaker>hm, ok
11:38<andythenorth>'s how frosch told me to do it, so I guess it's right :)
11:40<andythenorth>it wouldn't be a bad project to document more industry code
11:40<andythenorth>it's neither well-documented nor self-evident
11:40<andythenorth>I can only understand it because I know the industry spec from newgrf side
11:40<@planetmaker>quite so, yes
11:42<andythenorth>so first part of if statement on l1764 is prospecting
11:42<andythenorth>else case is other construction - map gen, random in game, player, scenario editor
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11:44<andythenorth>I don't really understand the various assignments of ret
11:45<andythenorth>ret is a CommandCost object?
11:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r21997 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#4473]: when the difference between force and resistance is smaller than the mass(*4) there would be no acceleration anymore, even when at higher (or lower) speed the force and resistance balance out better
11:46<andythenorth>ret appears to be assigned multiple times
11:46<andythenorth>I can't follow that properly
11:46<@planetmaker>the function returns at several points
11:46<@planetmaker>depending on success or not
11:46<@Alberth>CommandCost ret is just used for success/fail
11:47<andythenorth>so the do loop assigns ret to the tile shape check
11:47<andythenorth>and returns if that fails
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11:49<@Alberth>1792 is 'i don't have any more layouts' -> returns, it seems
11:49<andythenorth>and all layouts have failed at that point
11:49<@Alberth>1794 tries to construct, and the 'while()' loops again if that build fails
11:50<andythenorth>it should just check the tile area
11:50<@Alberth>yes, you are right
11:50<andythenorth>l1798 is doing the actual construction test as far as I can see
11:50<andythenorth>I hate the use of 'ret' in multiple places with different values
11:50<andythenorth>is that standard style?
11:51<@Alberth>it is similar to having a temporary var 'j' or so that you use everywhere locally
11:52<andythenorth>it's entirely logical, but hard to work with
11:52<@Alberth>ret, ret2, ret3 etc are not a big leap forward, I think
11:52<andythenorth>if this was Flash or so, I would have created a separate function for each check
11:53<Rubidium>but then you'd have:
11:53<andythenorth>then call something like if(checkFirstThing().failed()) {return xyz}
11:53<andythenorth>but then you have to go read a billion different functions, so maybe no better
11:53<Rubidium>andythenorth: but you want to return the result of checkFirstThing
11:54<Rubidium>CommandCost ret = checkFirstThing();
11:54<Rubidium>if (ret.Failed()) return ret;
11:54<Rubidium>ret = CheckSecondThing();
11:54<andythenorth>doesn't ret just set the failure string to use in this case?
11:54<andythenorth>initially I mean?
11:54<Rubidium>if (ret.Failed()) return ret;
11:55<Rubidium>initially yes, but it's overwritten by CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree
11:55<andythenorth>I'll stop worrying about it
11:55<Rubidium>just for the lovely case a NewGRF developer thinks it's funny to make a NewGRF with 0 layouts ;)
11:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth: any way I can check the success of a patch for this?
11:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: use the handy newgrf
11:57*planetmaker downloads
11:58<@planetmaker>what industry?
11:59<@planetmaker>sorry, reading helps :-P
12:01<andythenorth>planetmaker: that grf can confirm the current annoying trunk behaviour if cb28 blocks some layouts
12:01<andythenorth>don't forget bakeries are only near town :)
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12:02<andythenorth>if a patch works, it should be possible for player to fund bakery without multiple clicks until correct random layout is chosen ;)
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12:17<TruePikachu>Lol @ proper scheduling
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12:20<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21998 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21969): Number of industries difficulty setting should not affect the SE.
12:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r21999 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4474] (r21969): Use 'very low' industry density for generating industries in the SE.
12:23<@planetmaker>hm, andythenorth does the bakery need to be build on top of houses?
12:23*ZirconiumX wonders where CIA-2 has gotten to...
12:24<andythenorth>planetmaker: no
12:24<@Alberth>you never know with the CIA
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12:25<@planetmaker>hm, ok, not successful so far.
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm... there is no CIA-9
12:31*ZirconiumX also wonders where CIA-31254632838295637392890483 has gotton to :p
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12:31<@orudge>s/gotten to/gone/
12:31<@orudge>silly Americanisms
12:32<TruePikachu>Lol, I use 'gone'
12:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth: does it have a min distance to farms and maybe others?
12:34<@planetmaker>hm... seems to be the town radius. quite small ;-)
12:35<TruePikachu>Is there any way to mute the RR crossing bells?
12:36<@planetmaker>switch off sounds?
12:36<TruePikachu>-_- besides that
12:36<@orudge>edit the file and replaec the sound with something muted
12:36<@orudge>or I guess you can do it via a GRF file, in theory
12:36<TruePikachu>I think it would be a good idea to permit turning off the "RR Crossing" and "Road Reconstruction" sounds
12:37<TruePikachu>* as an option
12:37<@orudge>true TT fans would never do that
12:37<TruePikachu>Well, I already have a headache from me being sick, and the schedule got messed up so much that there is always a train in the crossing
12:38<TruePikachu>s/ the / a /
12:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth: <-- does that do what you want it to do?
12:38<@planetmaker>It needs simplification / beautification still
12:39<@Yexo>TrueBrain: you can write a newgrf to turn those sounds off
12:39<@Yexo>at least, the spec allows it, I'm not sure if that's actually implemented in openttd
12:39*andythenorth does patch
12:39<@planetmaker>truebrain most likely could ;-)
12:39<TrueBrain>stop highlighting me :(
12:40<TrueBrain>planetmaker: very sure I can't :p
12:40<@Yexo>oops, sorry
12:41<TrueBrain>Yexo: we already once established TruePikachu should rename himself, but what can you do ... :p
12:42<@Alberth>ban all true persons, except one? :p
12:42<@orudge>Alberth: tsk, we never banned OwenS, despite people trying to speak to him highlighting me instead :p
12:42<TrueBrain>There is only one
12:42<@orudge>or, well, as wel
12:43<@orudge>time for dinner
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12:49<andythenorth>planetmaker: that meets the test case for bakery :D
12:49<andythenorth>I need to read the diff
12:49<andythenorth>but currently have the baby :o
12:49<@planetmaker>good. Mind, the diff is "bulky" and can be done smarter
12:50<andythenorth>I'd be worried about breaking cb28 some other place
12:51<@planetmaker>as it's with this patch it just tries all layouts
12:51<@planetmaker>so no change except that industry construction will succeed if it can succeed by means of a single layout
12:52<@Yexo>planetmaker: the double for loop in the last block can be replaced by something like this: for (uint i = 0; i < num_layouts; i++) { uint layout = (start_layout + i) % num_layouts;
12:52<@planetmaker>I updated. Check again :-)
12:52<@Yexo>same for the loop at the start in the diff
12:53<@planetmaker>you're totally right :-)
12:53<@Yexo>basically what you did but a bit shorter
12:53<frosch123>planetmaker: you should also keep care of _cleared_object_areas
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12:53<@planetmaker>don't I?
12:53<frosch123>you reset it on success
12:54<frosch123>i guess you need to reset in on failure
12:55<frosch123>i am also not sure whether town ratings and other stuff is not affected in a bad way
12:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: so you left CBM_IND_LOCATION in CreateNewIndustryHelper
12:56<andythenorth>seems safest
12:57<frosch123>planetmaker: you do multiple runs with different layouts, each may try to clear tiles
12:57<Nite>(i guess the artefacts in the train status when changing speed are a known glitch)
12:57<@planetmaker>yes. But so does the original code, doesn't it?
12:57<@planetmaker>just not all layouts? Or am I thoroughly mistaken there?
12:57<@Yexo>Nite: not sure, what exactly glitches?
12:57<@planetmaker>Nite: fixed already
12:57<@Yexo>the original code does _cleared_object_areas = object_areas; after every call to CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree
12:58<@Yexo>your new code doesn't
12:58<Nite>very nice ...
12:58<@planetmaker>thanks... blind me. You're right, it should move a few lines up
13:00<Nite>(and i stress again; plz make view of automatic orders optional not permanent)
13:00<@planetmaker>another update
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13:04<frosch123>Nite: that is going to be quite confusing
13:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: I should test again?
13:04<@planetmaker>possibly update, yes
13:04<frosch123>hiding the current automatic order makes skip behaviour very weird, and hiding all automatic except the current one, makes the gui change all the time
13:05<frosch123>planetmaker: is changing the prospecting code actually needed?
13:05<@Yexo>frosch123: and hiding _all_ automatic orders?
13:06<@planetmaker>frosch123: not really. But IMHO it makes sense, too. Why try 5000 times for different places and not check each layout?
13:06<frosch123>Yexo: how shall skip behave then?
13:06<frosch123>planetmaker: anyway, cleared_object_areas = object_areas; definitely needs to be done after the complete testrun
13:06<frosch123>i.e. also after CreateNewIndustryHelper
13:07<@Yexo>I'm actually not sure how skip behaves now with automatic orders
13:07<@Yexo>going to test that first
13:07<frosch123>Yexo: it goes to the next automatic order
13:08<andythenorth>it probably makes more sense to modify prospecting
13:08<andythenorth>otherwise the prospecting chance is distorted by random layout selection
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13:09<@Yexo>if you skip an automatic order but the vehicle visits that station nonetheless it'll duplicate the automatic order
13:09<@Yexo>^^ bug or not?
13:09<frosch123>planetmaker: i guess you do not need the call to CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree at all, do you?
13:09<frosch123>CreateNewIndustryHelper calls it as well
13:09<andythenorth>planetmaker: I get an assert now :)
13:10<frosch123>Yexo: no bug, user fault
13:10<andythenorth>frosch123: that looks like it was trying to loop over layouts
13:10<andythenorth>without accounting for what newgrf author may have done with cb28
13:10<Nite>frosch123 what is confusing about an on and off option ?? ... ?
13:11<@planetmaker>frosch123: good point with CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree
13:11<@planetmaker>I wonder why it's called in the current code ;-)
13:11<@Yexo>skip button could be solved by skipping to next non-automatic order if the display of automatic orders is disabled
13:11<frosch123>Nite: if you hide them, the behaviour of move orders, skip orders, and various other stuff is undefined
13:11<Nite>i had multiple created autoorders too as yexo describes
13:12<Nite>even more with rvs
13:12<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22000 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Introduce an enum for the industry density setting.
13:12<frosch123>Yexo, Nite: what are we talking about? disabling automatic orders completely? or temporaily hiding them to get a better summary?
13:12<@Yexo>hiding them
13:12<andythenorth>planetmaker: no crash log :o
13:12<@Yexo>I see no reason to disable them, if you don't want any use non-stop orders
13:13<Nite>i thought the view of automaic orders does not change the gameplay and is just visual
13:13<Nite>as you frosch123 describe ti its not
13:13<@Yexo>your argument against hiding them was the the skip button would behave wierd, but the skip button could just skip to the next non-automatic order if they are hidden
13:13<frosch123>Nite: it changes the effect of skip, and it may be more critical in the future
13:15<Nite>iam asking about switching between the new and old behaviour - auto orders can get confusing in the creation process of orders
13:15<Nite>(as said yesterday)
13:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: assert when I try to build bakery
13:15<andythenorth>constructing coal mine is fine (I used fund not prospect)
13:15<andythenorth>I'll test some more
13:15<Rubidium>ooh... r22k party?
13:15<@planetmaker>and what assert?
13:18*TruePikachu wonders whose idea it was to make tiny little property marking signs so expensive
13:18<Nite>it just gets wierd when orders appear, in the process change their number, then anotherone appears anotheron dissapers anotherone bites the ... no wait ..
13:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: the crash log is pretty empty
13:18<andythenorth>I'm not sure if I need to increase debug level?
13:18<@planetmaker>I guess I have a crash.log...
13:19<TruePikachu>I mean, yeah, buying land is expensive, but not as expensive as laying track on unpurchased land?
13:19<@planetmaker>and I think I know where it went wrong ;-)
13:19<andythenorth>planetmaker: check your pm
13:20<frosch123>Yexo: maybe you are right, and just hiding all automatic orders might work
13:20<@Alberth>TruePikachu: they are very useful for blocking other players in MP
13:20<@Alberth>so you want to discourage that use :)
13:24<TruePikachu>Oh. Why can't you just lay random rail?
13:24<TruePikachu>Wait, roads :P
13:25<TruePikachu>Well, now I'm wondering if the realistic acceleration has much of a penalty for starting up a train on a slope
13:25<TruePikachu>Uphill, 3%
13:27<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22001 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Rename difficulty.number_industries to difficulty.industry_density.
13:27<TruePikachu>In the way of one of my routes, there is a large uphill grade, and I doubled up the tracks
13:28<TruePikachu>However, I'm worried that, in the condition of a jam ahead, trains will not be able to go uphill to proceed (as they lost their momentum at a red signal)
13:28<@Alberth>oh, they will go up at 1km/h :)
13:28<TruePikachu>Guarenteed minimum speed?
13:28<@Alberth>it should be
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>you could just test it by stopping a train.
13:29<TruePikachu>MSTS doesn't have such a speed; I've lost lots of progress stopping on hills...
13:30<Nite>use strong enough trains tehn TruePikachu
13:30<Hirundo>You could keep 1 train length before and after the slope free of signals
13:31<@Yexo>or don't build signals on/just after uphill slopes
13:31<Nite>or will it happen with any train?
13:31<George>Shouldn't this line (CB 17) disable building a house if thre is a road at SW?
13:31<George> 1454 * 15 02 07 10 81 62 01 18 0F 01 00 80 02 02 01 80
13:31<Nite>maka a long enough section before the hill so trains can gather speed when stopped
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13:34<Prof_Frink>You could always do what we did in the good old days
13:34<Prof_Frink>Remove the hill.
13:34<@Alberth>or lay the tracks around it :)
13:36<Prof_Frink>More specifically, lay tracks around it, then dig the cutting as the money starts rolling in
13:36<@Terkhen>politely ask it to move aside
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13:37<@Yexo><George> Shouldn't this line (CB 17) disable building a house if thre is a road at SW? <- that line looks ok
13:37<Nite>remove the hill -> we play with absurdely hihg landscaping costs (500k per tile) or landscaping restricitons - it adds a nice building challenge
13:38<Prof_Frink>Well, that's a problem of your own making then.
13:39<TruePikachu> << Look at what I find near that slope. (I also found a Lynx-compatable imagebin)
13:40-!-JOHN-SHEPARD [] has joined #openttd
13:40<TruePikachu>(and when I say Lynx-compatable, I mean Lynx can upload to it)
13:43<TruePikachu>Hooking to Sintfield will be a nice challenge
13:43<TruePikachu>Especially since the slopes are against me
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13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22002 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: belarusian - 4 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: finnish - 38 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: japanese - 42 changes by kokubunzi
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by Simek
13:51<@planetmaker>frosch123: updated again. Further concerns?
13:52<frosch123>uint layout = i + start_layout < num_layouts ? i + start_layout : i + start_layout - num_layouts; <- layout = (i + start_layout) & num_layouts
13:52<@planetmaker>if that's faster :-)
13:53<@planetmaker>but probably the compiler compiles it to the same, eh? :-)
13:53<frosch123>now you have removed object_areas completely :s
13:53<TruePikachu>frosch123: I'm not sure off the top of my head, but I think you'd better backslash you ampersand in your s/ statement ;)
13:53<@planetmaker>frosch123: yes... as you pointed out, it's handled anyway in the other function
13:53*TruePikachu has been using 'sed' a lot recently (the source of s/)
13:53<@planetmaker>as the first thing in there
13:53<frosch123>oh, did not saw that :)
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>TruePikachu: if you're talking about "sed", then the escaping is likely needed because of the shell
13:54<TruePikachu>Actually, it's in the regular expression portion of the statement
13:54<TruePikachu>Does the ampersand do something special in regular expressions? I backslash it just to be safe
13:55*TruePikachu pulls up the info page
13:56<TruePikachu>Ah, don't see anything RE: & in regexp
13:56<frosch123>planetmaker: can you check (with some debug output), whether CreateNewIndustryHelper modifies the town rating even if it fails?
13:56<@planetmaker>I shall try
---Logclosed Sun Feb 06 14:02:25 2011
---Logopened Sun Feb 06 14:02:49 2011
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14:09<@Yexo>planetmaker: it looks like if (num_layouts == 0) return ret; is not needed, after all if num_layouts = 0 the loop will never be entered and if (ret.Failed()) return ret; will trigger
14:09<@planetmaker>got a point
14:13<@Yexo>second part of your patch basically boils down to this:
14:14<@Yexo>the rest is just a codechanges to make it more readable and cleanup the object_areas variable that is no longer needed
14:15<@planetmaker>basically yes
14:16<@planetmaker>But as you say, I find it this way much better understandable ;-)
14:17<@planetmaker>should I split into two patches?
14:17<@Yexo>that would make it a lot more visible what you actually change
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14:23<andythenorth>my browser crashed while I was writing a not-rude-but-blunt reply to Neko :P
14:23<andythenorth>maybe there's a message in that
14:26-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:26<@planetmaker>oh, the canset thread? Yeah... but don't bother - he'll get his blunt reply ;-)
14:26<@planetmaker>I'm sure someone will ;-)
14:27-!-edward5555 [] has quit []
14:29<@Terkhen>he seems to be good at provoking and enduring blunt replies
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14:32<andythenorth>FIRS thread
14:32<andythenorth>I already told him there's no iron->sste
14:32<andythenorth>steel chain
14:36<@planetmaker>ah, not bright posting either, yeah
14:36<@planetmaker>beer? cookie? other beverage?
14:37<@planetmaker>just relax ;-)
14:37-!-valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
14:37<@planetmaker>(yes, I do that now, too, thus today no cb28 commit anymore :-P )
14:42<andythenorth>well at least there is some proof it will work
14:43<@planetmaker>it just needs cutting down to nice pieces :-)
14:43<@planetmaker>but I'm now not in beautification mood :-)
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14:47<TruePikachu>planetmaker: Since when is a cookie a beverage?
14:48<andythenorth>TrueBrain: beverage? no
14:48<andythenorth>depending on the company you keep
14:48<TruePikachu>andythenorth: Wrong highlight -_-
14:49*Eddi|zuHause should also make a list of people who deserve blunt replies
14:49<TruePikachu>It would be nice if IRC clients did *nix-style tab completion
14:49<andythenorth>oops :m
14:49<andythenorth>in what ways don't they?
14:49<andythenorth>oh, I see
14:50<TrueBrain>how I do enjoy the days TruePikachu is in this channel ... (no offense TruePikachu :p)
14:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: do you want to beautify some nfo parameter code?? :)
14:51-!-TrueBrain is now known as TB2
14:51<@planetmaker>another day :-) My concentration capability is at about 1% ;-)
14:51<TruePikachu>It would also cut down on tab key usage when "Guest0001" through "Guest 0123" are in the same room
14:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: not time for the new coop game yet?
14:52<@planetmaker>Not sure, what does V453000 say? ^
14:52<@planetmaker>(stable server)
14:52<V453000>21 Jan 2017 a bit too soon I think
14:53<V453000>I can ask them anyway
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14:57<V453000>maybe later today, but nobody will play it today anyway :)
15:00<@planetmaker>tomorrow is fine with me
15:05*andythenorth ponders what next
15:10<andythenorth>top gear :)
15:18-!-TB2 is now known as TrueBrain
15:25*andythenorth has a stare-at-it-and-can't-see-it FIRS bug :(
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15:28<@Terkhen>good night
15:30<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
15:33<@planetmaker>good night Terkhen
15:33<@planetmaker>good night all others :-)
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15:49<dihedral>nio looks tasty
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16:15<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22003 /trunk/ (config.lib known-bugs.txt): -Document [FS#3447]: that SDL for Mac OS X might very well be unusable
16:20-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
16:24*kamnet ponders splitting the OpenMSX discussion off into its own topic
16:25<kamnet>Or, at least, the release notices
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16:27<Nite>"wagon remooval is somehow defeated by trainlength limit ... just for the record
16:27<Nite>the train will not raplace at all if it gets too long, waggons are not remooved
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16:31<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22004 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp table/settings.h): -Change [FS#4471]: always report mammoth trains are disabled to NewGRFs, and allow the maximum train length to be modified in multiplayer as well
16:34<Nite>setting the trainlenght longer than the max station size - and autoreplace woudl work again?
16:35<Rubidium>Nite: well, give us a reproducable testcase by means of a (small) 64x64 savegame with a single train in the bugtracker
16:35<Nite>would autoreplace check before the train lenght limit it would work again?
16:36<Nite>just build a train that has the max train lenght - then try to autoreplace it to something that would make the train longer - does not work
16:36<Nite>(waggon remooval on off course)
16:37<Nite>ON offcource
16:37<Rubidium>so ofcourse
16:37<Nite>ok its ofcourse
16:37<Nite>damn rusty english
16:38<Prof_Frink>While you're at it, wagon and removal.
16:39<dihedral>"of course" ;-)
16:39<dihedral>two words
16:39*dihedral goes to bed
16:39<Nite>:D @ self
16:39<Prof_Frink>Oh, and start with a capital and end with a full stop.
16:40<dihedral>heh - the last commit was not mentioned in .notice
16:40<dihedral>oh - i was off :-P
16:40<dihedral>time for bed!!
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16:40<Nite>"off course" would be away from the track"
16:42<Nite>- g - o
16:42<Rubidium>dihedral: it was mentioned
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17:04<Nite>with the train lenght limit and autoreplace you can also run into a situation where you can not change the trains consist at all: "train too long"
17:05<Nite>i hear
17:07<Rubidium>ah well... it's nothing new
17:11*TruePikachu just came up with a possible way to allow faster trains to pass slower ones without very complex signalling
17:11<TruePikachu>It's actually simple, and works in theory
17:13<TruePikachu>BUT it may cause problems if trains are too close together (as that is how it works - checking if trains are very close)
17:16<TruePikachu>All it is is a passing loop where trains are penaltied towards one side (via rear-facing PBS), and priority at the merge is at the penalised side
17:16<TruePikachu>If two trains are close together, it will have the first one take I.E. track 1, second takes track 2
17:16<TruePikachu>Track 2 has priority over track 1
17:17<TruePikachu>Therefore, train 2 passes train 1
17:18<TruePikachu>But if the two trains go at the same speed, they may play leapfrog, so these shouldn't be used _very_ often
17:19<andythenorth>good night
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18:22<TruePikachu>It keeps confusing me when I see a train driving "backwards"
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18:25<CIA-11>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22005 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r21993): Update regression tests as well
18:25<TruePikachu>@*^%#& LOCAL AUTHORITY!!!
18:26<TruePikachu>It's worse than you think - me not constructing actually broke my intra-city
18:27<TruePikachu>Trains are entering the depot, getting bigger passenger carriages, leaving, and looking into somebody's office :(
18:28<TruePikachu>That guy must be very scared, seeing trains approaching his office (that being where the tracks end) :)
18:30<TruePikachu>In fact, since the train is stuck between his office and a rear-facing one way signal, it just keeps going back and forth
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>so what exactly are you trying to tell us?
18:33<TruePikachu>I hate the local authority
18:34<TruePikachu>And despite my "good" rating, I still can't fix the track
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>it looks rather like: "i am too stupid to build my network properly, and want to blame things on someone else"
18:35<TruePikachu>Actually, I forgot that the depot was on a branch unable to return to the main loop, and sent all the trains there
18:35<TruePikachu>Oh well. Just means less people at my major station
18:35<Nite>eddi - always offending ;)
18:37<TruePikachu>I decided to give that guy a break from his office job because of nervous breakdowns (that, and the building is finally gone)
18:40<@planetmaker>yeah. Your biggest mistake is that you still didn't update your OpenTTD
18:40<@planetmaker>The support for broken network designs got better meanwhile
18:45<Nite>wht version do you use TruePikachu
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19:06<z-MaTRiX>waiting on r222222
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19:40<@SmatZ>z-MaTRiX: r222222 will take many years
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20:31<perk11>on what revision 1.1.0 beta 5 is based?
20:32<FauxFaux>svn log --limit 2 svn://
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20:59<Chris_Booth_>does anyone know if there is a limit of the size of a town(not a city)
21:00<Chris_Booth_>since I am trying to grow one but it just doesn't seem to want to grow over 110k
21:02<z-MaTRiX>created an xorg conf file, added custom monitor information and kde4 uses it
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22:02<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth_: it's a balance of growth vs. shrinking, not an actual limit
22:02<Chris_Booth_>it has grown to 115k now but has got really slow, and that is with growth rate set to 4
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22:05<Nite>remember having 200k ppl
22:06<Nite>and there where endless servers that had huuuuuge cities
22:06<Nite>but is there a limit?
22:07<Nite>there mus t be some theoretical limit
22:07<perk11>a map size and close cities should limit it
22:08<Chris_Booth_>well Nite I have got a city of 1million befor
22:08<Chris_Booth_>but that wasn't at its limit
22:08<Chris_Booth_>but due to growth factors towns grow slower than cities
22:08<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth_: it depends on various stuff
22:09<Nite>honestly i dont remember what was the bigest i saw
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth_: long road tunnels from the town center to the outskirts may help
22:09<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth_: dead end roads hurt
22:09<Nite>a simple grid?
22:09<supermop>conceivable on coulbe make a newgrf with a house that help 1,000,000 people
22:09<Chris_Booth_>I am using a complex grid and bridges
22:09<Nite>later delete some roads of the grid skeleton
22:09<supermop>*one could make
22:09<Nite>why bridges tunnels
22:10<Chris_Booth_>my metro network runs in tunnels
22:10<Nite>r u playing anything online atm? chris_Booth_
22:10<Chris_Booth_>I am playing openttdcoop
22:10<supermop>cannot type at all
22:10<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: town growth walks along the road network. the longer the roads, the more likely it may fail to build a house
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: so when you have long tunnels, the "distance" is reduced, thus it may be more likely to succeed
22:11<Chris_Booth_>same effect with bridges
22:11<Nite>ok the tunnel does not count as distance
22:11<Chris_Booth_>but they dont run at the same level as my trains
22:11<Chris_Booth_>they only count as 2
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: tunnels don't have crossings. at each crossing, it may do a wrong decision
22:11<Chris_Booth_>1 for entrance 1 for exit portal
22:12<Nite>but this doesent affect cargo payment i assume?
22:12<Chris_Booth_>why would it?
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: what does that have to do with cargo?
22:12<Chris_Booth_>cargo payment is to do with distance traveled in time traveled
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22:13<Nite>because cargo is payed more the more squares it is transported
22:13<Nite>but i guess just the two endpoints are calculated here
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: but only the distance of the stations count
22:13<Nite>(station signs)
22:13<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: not the path inbetween
22:13<Nite>as i thought, clear
22:21<perk11>what's for admin_password in openttd.cfg?
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23:02<__ln__>english only
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23:28<perk11>really, there isn't any information on wiki or elsewhere on that admin_password setting
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 07 00:00:48 2011