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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-09

---Logopened Wed Feb 09 00:00:52 2011
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02:34<@Terkhen>good morning
02:39<Rubidium>moi
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04:24<@peter1138>well then, my quad core system uses 130W at idle...
04:25<@peter1138>managed to get it up to 200W under load
04:25<@peter1138>so why do i have a 600W PSU in it?
04:26<Noldo>someone sold it to you
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04:26<@peter1138>There's an 8800GT in there, and 3 HDDs...
04:27<__ln__>peter1138: because PSUs' optimal operating condition is not 100% load.
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>you also need to put the graphics card under load
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04:37<Eddi|zuHause>but 600W sounds slightly overpowered still
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04:37<Eddi|zuHause>i think i was undecided between 430W and 500W
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>for my hexacore
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04:42<@planetmaker>moin
04:45<@peter1138>__ln__, neither is it 33%
04:46<__ln__>peter1138: why not?
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04:47<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: moat PSUs have their optimum at around 90% and have drastically lower efficiency if it deviates from that
04:47<@peter1138>apparently they're most efficient at 50-75% load
04:47<@peter1138>or 90%?
04:47<@peter1138>who knows
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>in any case, 30% sounds way out of the optimal range :p
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>you can assume that the higher the range, the more expensive the PSU
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>but presuming you measured the "outside" consumption when you got these 130W, the PSU seems to be pretty good
04:51<@peter1138>http://www.anandtech.com/show/2624/3
04:51<@peter1138>^ doesn't look that bad
04:51<@peter1138>(for that specific supply anyway)
04:51<@peter1138>yeah, true, i did
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05:01<andythenorth_>sulphur mine for FIRS? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12301421
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05:33<DoubleYou>andythenorth_: where would it be processed? :)
05:33<andythenorth_>dunno
05:34<DoubleYou>i know sulfur has been collected similarly for quite a while, although i haven't heard that they did it from an active volcano where it just pours out like that
05:34<DoubleYou>pretty impressive
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>we need to implement programmable signals. MB starts to sound like a broken record...
05:36<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, lovely... and how should that influence the pathfinder?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: by a penalty. what other way is there to influence a pathfinder?
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05:38<Rubidium>but... will the signal always show red, i.e. the train must NOT be routed through there, or will it eventually become green, i.e. the train should not but CAN be routed through there
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: what i am worried about the most is the lack of entry-signal in pbs-stations
05:39<Rubidium>aren't they all entry signals?
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i mean a signal directly in front of the platform, for assigning trains to platforms
05:40<Rubidium>that'd then be exit signals
05:41<Rubidium>and falls back to: a signal that can be red, but isn't a safe waiting point
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it'd be silly to assign "entry" rules to "exit" signals
05:41<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but it's where you're allowed to exit the signal block
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: my point is, players should not have to readd these signals, after PBS removed the need for those
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05:44<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so you need some way to tell the actual entry signal, which exits are preferred, without having signals on these exits
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05:53<JVassie>I'm running ChillCore's pathpack and trying to set up some timetables, how come the 'start date' box is greyed out permanently?
05:53<JVassie>(r21900M)
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06:05<@Terkhen>JVassie: did you test if the same occurs in a nightly or beta?
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06:14<Eddi|zuHause>my guess it's something the automatted timetable and separation patch does.
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06:18<lugo>mornings
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06:20<@Terkhen>hi lugo
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06:46<JVassie>Terkhen, no i haven't
06:46<JVassie>actually
06:47<JVassie>i know r21054M works fine
06:47<@Terkhen>JVassie: then you should ask at the patchpack thread, as it is probably something related to the patches mentioned by Eddi
06:48<JVassie>ok will do
06:48<JVassie>:)
06:48<JVassie>thx
06:48<@Terkhen>yw
06:49<JVassie>couldnt see anything in the automated tiemtable thread about it, but didnt read every post of course
06:51<Rubidium>but he adds multiple patches together which will collide with eachother, so it might very well be something of the patchpack itself
06:51<Ammler>lzma detection is failing sometime
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06:55<Ammler>if I build dedicated version, it doesn't detect liblzma 4.999.9beta
06:55<Ammler>what could be the difference?
06:58<Rubidium>missing something
06:58<Rubidium>like pkg-config
06:59<Ammler>yep :-)
06:59<Ammler>now I need to check, which of the gui package installs that
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07:04<Rubidium>which in essence means liblzma2-devel (or whaterver it's called) is missing a dependency
07:09<Ammler>pkg-config isn't the failure
07:09<Ammler>pkg-config on the gui version doesn't return something
07:09<Rubidium>pkg-config liblzma --modversion really should return something
07:11<Ammler>hmm, indeed, strange
07:13<Ammler>non-suse distors don't even know the package pkg-config
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07:22<Ammler>https://build.opensuse.org/package/live_build_log?arch=i586&package=openttd-dedicated&project=home%3Aopenttdcoop&repository=openSUSE_11.1 <-- xz-devel is installed but not detected
07:23<Ammler>https://build.opensuse.org/package/live_build_log?arch=i586&package=openttd&project=home%3Aopenttdcoop&repository=openSUSE_11.1 <-- non-dedicated version detects it
07:24<Ammler>this only happen with zx < 5.0
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07:25<Ammler>openSUSE 11.3 with xz 5.0.1 works fine
07:26<Ammler>also on Fedora with 4.999 works
07:27<Ammler>https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=openttd.spec&package=openttd&project=home%3Aopenttdcoop <-- spec
07:30<Ammler>:-( no idea
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07:55<Ammler>I just added pkg-config for older suses manually :-/
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07:59<dihedral>good morning
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08:00<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22035 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: refactor (display) unit conversion to happen at a single place
08:05<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22036 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: rename units to match coding style, and give conversion variables a more descriptive name
08:10<dihedral>Yexo, planetmaker: is hiding settings not a solution? allowing a button to toggle which settings are visible?
08:10<dihedral>i.e. full or basic
08:10<dihedral>and then also get all settings into the gui, but hidden by default (e.g. the penalty settings for yapf)
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08:13<Rubidium>dihedral: psychology 101; oh, more settings! I want! So 99% will have full turned on, regardless whether it's useful for them
08:13<@SmatZ>hehe :)
08:13<Rubidium>and then they mess with the pathfinder settings and we are basically screwed as we have to support them
08:15<andythenorth>can't we just quietly garden out settings
08:15<andythenorth>say, two per minor version or something
08:15<andythenorth>mm
08:16<andythenorth>when me and the maker of planets were last looking at GUI - there was talk of consolidating a lot of settings
08:16<andythenorth>or at least menus
08:16<dihedral>Rubidium, normal psychology does not work with our clients :-D
08:16<andythenorth>there's a mini-blizzard of game options / difficulty settings / advanced settings / options from the game menus
08:16<Rubidium>dihedral: that's why it's 101 psychology
08:17<dihedral>:-D
08:17<dihedral>it was just an idea ;-)
08:17<Rubidium>andythenorth: I agree there are too many places for settings
08:17<Rubidium>though unifying settings is somewhat troublesome
08:17<andythenorth>we did start figuring out how to clean it up
08:17<dihedral>the task i am looking at is trying to get that bot ready in time for the stable release :-P
08:17<andythenorth>it wasn't just a case of 'easy to say'
08:17<andythenorth>we actually did do some work
08:17<andythenorth>but it was a while ago :(
08:17<andythenorth>and users did whine about some of our ideas
08:18<andythenorth>omg
08:18<dihedral>andythenorth, users always whine about something
08:18<andythenorth>is tool tip hover time really need an easy-to-get to setting?
08:18<andythenorth>this is a bit like windows 95
08:18<dihedral>as long as they don't give constructive feedback, you can simpile 2>&1 >/dev/null
08:18<andythenorth>crappy options for everything
08:19<Ammler>andythenorth: there are already way too few settings available
08:19<andythenorth>:P
08:19*andythenorth thinks a lot of them make sense
08:19<andythenorth>and some are bonkers
08:19*dihedral misses the unique id though :-P
08:20<Ammler>openttd is too much ruled by devs
08:20<dihedral>pffft, Ammler
08:20<andythenorth>is a choice of pathfinder really still useful in the GUI?
08:20<dihedral>or are you implying that you miss a project manager?
08:20<dihedral>at least for ships :-P
08:20<andythenorth>dihedral: it's not useful for ships
08:21<andythenorth>using anything but original will leave the game stuttering with more than about 50 ships
08:21<Ammler>andythenorth: oh, you meant just settings available from gui...
08:21<dihedral>andythenorth, so?
08:21<dihedral>i might still want it for my ships
08:21<andythenorth>so go edit the config
08:21<dihedral>because i might play a single player game and only need like 10
08:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22037 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: remove some unneeded (hidden) casting
08:22*andythenorth routes dihedral's suggestion to /dev/null
08:22<andythenorth>why would I want to disable electric rails?
08:23<@planetmaker>the main issue is the three to 6 different places for settings (depending on how you count)
08:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: we did have a good think about this before
08:23<@planetmaker>yeah, I recall that...
08:23<andythenorth>a lot of the interesting / useful options in advanced settings relate to difficulty
08:23<Ammler>the cheat menu is useless
08:23<andythenorth>or setting up a competitive MP game
08:23<@planetmaker>can you make my days have 48 hours? ;-)
08:24<andythenorth>:)
08:24*andythenorth has a baby
08:24<andythenorth>my days have about three hours
08:24<andythenorth>the baby gets the rest of them
08:24<@planetmaker>options, adv. settings, cheat, difficulty, newgrf, ai, transparency, graphics settings (ingame menu),...
08:24<andythenorth>I can't see many really pointless GUI settings
08:24<andythenorth>I reckon they could be counted on two hands
08:24<Ammler>yes, difficulty menu is also useless
08:25<@planetmaker>quite
08:25<andythenorth>it's probably not too much pain to garden some away into 'edit config'
08:25<@planetmaker>there was the idea to move the "difficulty" to a newgrf reported difficulty and be done with it.
08:25<@planetmaker>so a setting to control newgrfs
08:25<@planetmaker>I like it actually ;-)
08:25<Ammler>there should rather be a kind of settings preset like we already have for newgrfs
08:26<@planetmaker>that's another issue
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think the approach with different "levels" of visible options is the most promising: few/medium/all/really all
08:26<@planetmaker>But unrelated to removing difficulty
08:26<Ammler>difficulty level is a kind of setting presets
08:26<@planetmaker>I don't like "really all" for the reason Rubidium said: the non-GUI settings are non-GUI for a reason
08:27<Ammler>few=the settings from create a new map
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>well, "really all" could be a non-GUI option ;)
08:28<@planetmaker>that *might* be an option
08:29<Ammler>it would also be nice, if you could enable MP gui via rcon or so
08:29<andythenorth>we did before consolidate to something like this "http://tt-foundry.com/misc/game_setup_gui_1b.png
08:29<andythenorth>there would still be a 'settings' somewhere
08:29<andythenorth>which would act like application preferences
08:30<andythenorth>we distinguished gameplay settings / behaviour from app settings / behaviour
08:30<andythenorth>then we agreed it was a big project
08:30<andythenorth>and we did nothing else :P
08:30<andythenorth>but alberth shipped a new newgrf gui
08:30<@planetmaker>I still all have that... but time... :-)
08:30<andythenorth>the end
08:30<andythenorth>:)
08:30<@planetmaker>he :-)
08:30<andythenorth>I'm not that arsed about it at the moment
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>random thought: presets could work like transparency settings. there the presets are "all on" and "all off", but you can ctrl+click to force keeping a setting on preset change
08:31<andythenorth>I would rather right now murder some of the stupider settings
08:31<andythenorth>then do RoadTypes :D
08:31<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, what is "on" or "off" with "town permissivity": hostile / medium / lovely ?
08:31<@planetmaker>(or however it's actually called)
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well, the names or the contents of the presets would need to be discussed.
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure there should be user-definable presets as well (like newgrf presets)
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: this was more about the "lock this setting" feature
08:33<Rubidium>planetmaker: with a fast plane you actually can, though you would have to sacrifice half the days
08:35<Rubidium>yeah, all on == set everything to 1. I'd love that...
08:36<Rubidium>massive pathfinder breakage
08:36<Rubidium>trains turning around after a day at signals
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>now you're just misunderstanding me non purpose
08:38<Rubidium>nah, I'm just lagging
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08:39<Rubidium>took a while to actually understand the idea
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08:43<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, presets for the settings are definitely a good idea (from my personal POV)
08:43<@planetmaker>It'd ease my task to create different games for different servers / purposes
08:44<Rubidium>that'd mean a complete revamp of the configuration file format
08:44<Rubidium>oh... and to hell with it: I'd even suggest something like xml, as nesting with xml is so much easier
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08:45<Rubidium>though making the schema could be somewhat non-trivial, although... I think it can be autogenerated
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>the last time we completely revamped the config file, we got endless amounts of complaints from people who went back and forth between stable and new stable :p
08:46<andythenorth>Rubidium: :o
08:46<andythenorth>a valid use for xml?
08:46<andythenorth>how bizarre :)
08:47<Rubidium>I'd suggest to not even try reading the old configuration file
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>there ARE valid (to some) uses of violence as well :p
08:47<andythenorth>OS X uses xml for storing preferences
08:47<andythenorth>it's slightly sane
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's probably less problematic than trying to do pseudo-nesting in ini-files
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09:03<DanMacK>Hey all
09:08<andythenorth>hi DanMacK
09:08<avdg>hi
09:11<@Belugas>hello
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09:40<andythenorth>how do I use string code 9A0Dh in this UTF string?
09:40<andythenorth> 1627 * 25 04 0B B8 01 3A DC C3 9E "\UE07C of bauxite" 00
09:45<@peter1138>UTF-8 encode it
09:45<andythenorth>frick
09:45<andythenorth>this is annoying :)
09:45<andythenorth>-1 * 0 04 0B LANG_ID2 01 STR_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT UTF_STRING "\9A" 0D TEXT_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT 00
09:45<Rubidium>just 9A 0D ?
09:45<@peter1138>oh, 9A 0D
09:45<@peter1138>that's not the same as 9A0D
09:47<andythenorth>ok
09:47<andythenorth>-1 * 0 04 0B LANG_ID2 01 STR_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT UTF_STRING 9A 0D TEXT_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT 00
09:47<andythenorth>produces this: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/string_codes.png
09:47<andythenorth>do I need to explicitly dump this item from the stack?
09:48<Rubidium>what does TEXT_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT contain?
09:48<andythenorth>#define TEXT_CRG_BAUXITE_CARGOAMOUNT "\UE07C of bauxite"
09:48<Rubidium>well, then remove the \UE07C
09:48<andythenorth>what does that do?
09:48<Rubidium>that's what the 3,221,209,136 comes from
09:48<andythenorth>I thought that prevented unicode explosions?
09:49<Rubidium>andythenorth: StringCodes | 7C Print signed word
09:49*andythenorth does face palm
09:49<andythenorth>today is not a good day for me reading spec correctly :(
09:50*andythenorth does declare win
09:50<andythenorth>thanks :)
09:54-!-Tennel [~Tennel@farafin-gate.cs.uni-magdeburg.de] has joined #openttd
09:55<avdg>bleh, the wiki is slow now
09:56-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host213-236-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
09:57<Wolf01>hello
09:57<avdg>hi
09:59*andythenorth ponders
09:59<andythenorth>'n tonnes' is available as a string code
09:59<andythenorth>'n crates' may not be
09:59<andythenorth>although I may just be overlooking it
10:00<Rubidium>crates isn't as it isn't configurable by the user
10:00<andythenorth>ok
10:01<andythenorth>I'll just construct strings for those ones
10:05<andythenorth>I thought I would be able to print 'crates' as a substring using 81 54 00
10:05<andythenorth>but that doesn't seem to work
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10:09<andythenorth>hmm
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10:43<Wolfsherz>excuse me, but where can i download a *recent* version of "Total Town Replacement Set"? someone knows?
10:44<@planetmaker>we don'te excuse to not have used the online content available from ingame, I'm afraid
10:44<@planetmaker>or define 'recent'
10:47<Wolfsherz>when using FIRS it states that i should use ttrs 3.02b, but in online content there it only version 3.02a available.
10:48<@planetmaker>ha, ok :-)
10:48<@planetmaker>There's no 3.02b around, but I created some updated version of TTRS, but that indeed is not yet on bananas.
10:48-!-amkoroew [~Heinz@p5B1062C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:48<@planetmaker>Find it at the DevZone: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ttrs
10:49<@planetmaker>Probably I should finish the edits soonish and upload it as 3.10 ;-)
10:49<Wolfsherz>thank you planetmaker =)
10:51<@planetmaker>with the old TTRS you'd get banks dealing with sand ;-) - so it has to be incompatible with FIRS ;-)
10:53<Wolfsherz>i see =) another question, you state that dbsetxl is partially supported, what does that mean exactly?
10:54<@planetmaker>it doesn't supply wagons for all cargos
10:54<@planetmaker>there's somewhere an extension to the dbset which fixes things for FIRS 0.5.x - but might be that it again broke for 0.6. I haven't tested it
10:55<Wolfsherz>hm :( i love dbsetxl...
10:55<@planetmaker>And the author unfortunately never uploads his newgrfs to bananas, so finding it is made a pain to all for whatever reason.
10:56<@planetmaker>maybe you can convince him ;-)
10:57<Wolfsherz>i dont think i can ...
10:57<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22038 /trunk/src/network/network_chat_gui.cpp: -Fix (r21406): Tab completion in chat did not cycle through all possible options.
10:58<@planetmaker>I'd buy you a beer if you could ;-)
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11:00<Wolfsherz>still fiddling around and trying to get a nice set of newgrfs for my games
11:02<Wolfsherz>sorry, but i'll need to drop firs until there is a proper dbsetxl support for it.
11:03<Wolfsherz>dont want to play with american trains =)
11:03<@Terkhen>isn't there a FIRS addon for it?
11:04<Wolfsherz>there is, but as planetmaker stated, its just partially supported
11:04<@Terkhen>oh, sorry :)
11:04<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I'm not sure about the (new) alcohol cargo. Most probable it is supported, but I don't really know
11:06<@Terkhen>I see :)
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11:19<DanMacK>DBXL FIRS extension does support Alcohol
11:19<@planetmaker>good to know. Thanks .-)
11:19<@planetmaker>^ Wolfsherz
11:20<DanMacK>EGRVTS on the other hand
11:20<Wolfsherz>hmm, well then i'll give it a shot :) thank you DanMacK and planetmaker
11:25<@planetmaker>hm, yes, read that with egrvts. sad :-(
11:25<@planetmaker>let's hope he'll bring out just a tiny bug fix to the current version which fixes that very issue
11:25<@planetmaker>that'd be quite enough for the time being
11:30*Terkhen would also like a power/tractive effort revision of EGRVTS
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11:35<@planetmaker>:-)
11:35<@planetmaker>I wonder whether Zephyris can be talked into an intermediate release, w/o new graphics, but with these fixes and additions
11:36<@Terkhen>that would be great, but it sounds like the most boring part :)
11:37-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
11:39<@planetmaker>I'll ask / prod him ;-)
11:39<@Terkhen>ok :)
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12:10<supermop>hello
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12:13<DanMacK>Hey supermop, WB Andy
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13:01<IchGuckLive>Hi all , when i plant trees in the desert,does it give me on any point a green land ?
13:01-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
13:01<andythenorth>no
13:02<IchGuckLive>Thanks
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13:07<supermop>how is everyone?
13:09<DanMacK>not bad, enjoying my day off. you?
13:10<andythenorth>DanMacK: you have painting time? :P
13:10<andythenorth>:)
13:11<DanMacK>Perhaps...
13:11*DanMacK wonders what to paint...
13:11-!-v3rb0 [~v3rb0@78.84.201.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:20<@Belugas>my house
13:22<@peter1138>paint it black
13:23<Ammler>or transparent
13:23<@peter1138>i don't think there was ever a song called "or transparent"
13:25<DanMacK>heh
13:31<@Belugas>:D
13:31<@Belugas>I see a red door and I want it paint in black...
13:33*andythenorth ponders industry 'upgrading' again
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13:33<andythenorth>is there a way to shuffle the contents of some tiles off to some memory for a bit...
13:33<andythenorth>then try overbuilding them, if fails, shuffle the contents back
13:34<andythenorth>and the game doesn't notice :P
13:34<dihedral>oi
13:34<@Terkhen>IIRC something like that is done for testing vehicle refits
13:35<andythenorth>it would make sense
13:35<Hirundo>it's certainly possible with turing machines
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13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22039 /trunk/src/lang/ (brazilian_portuguese.txt dutch.txt korean.txt serbian.txt):
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by junho2813
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 99 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran
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13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22040 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: handle case where too many Engines would be loaded, and ensure we don't overfill the SpriteGroup pool
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13:56<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22041 /trunk/src/ (core/pool_func.hpp core/pool_type.hpp stdafx.h): -Codechange: add a check that we called PoolItem::CanAllocateItem() before actually allocating it
13:56<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22042 /trunk/src/saveload/oldloader_sl.cpp: -Fix: when loading a TTO/TTD savegame, verify we can allocate a CargoPacket before actually trying to do so
13:59<andythenorth>are cargo icons used anywhere besides station window?
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14:10<@Alberth>not even at the refit window :(
14:12<@Terkhen>it would be nice to display them there, yes :)
14:12*Zuu pounders displaying the NewGRF window when clicking on new scenario/SE-button and then when you okay the NewGRF settings, a new scenario is created in the editor.
14:13<andythenorth>dunno if I can be bothered to test them
14:14<andythenorth>I am updating them
14:14<andythenorth>but delivering to 32 stations is dull
14:14<andythenorth>can the industry chain view use them?
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14:22<@Alberth>trails of cargo bits instead of coloured bars?
14:23<andythenorth>bleach
14:23<andythenorth>just once next to the name?
14:23<andythenorth>I'm not sure it will look good
14:23*Alberth donates a farm feeder suggestion to the firs wiki page
14:25<andythenorth>yay
14:26<@Alberth>hmm, the PDF page is also not yet linked there
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14:28<andythenorth>PDF page?
14:29<@Alberth>with all the industries and cargoes between them
14:29<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/economies
14:32<supermop>hmm,
14:32<supermop>can a house influence what houses may located near it?
14:33-!-xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-230-117.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd
14:33<supermop>ie, 'house A' is very rare, but has a higher chaance of appearing on a tile next to aanother 'house a'
14:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=913596#p913596
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15:09<andythenorth>hmm
15:09<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=52827
15:09<andythenorth>he's not actually wrong
15:09<andythenorth>still
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15:12<@Alberth>the theory is nice, practice will be very different :)
15:12*andythenorth wonders what he was coding
15:12<andythenorth>brain freeze
15:12<andythenorth>hmm
15:12<andythenorth>cargo icons
15:12<@Alberth>a firs wiki page :p
15:13<andythenorth>the 'community' can do that :)
15:14<@Alberth>and I was so curious for some secret tips from the master of firs :)
15:14-!-DDR [~DDR@d142-179-79-208.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:14<andythenorth>deliver stuff
15:14<andythenorth>get more stuff
15:14<andythenorth>deliver it to other places
15:14<andythenorth>transfers are good
15:14<andythenorth>hmm
15:14<andythenorth>seen the tao of python?
15:15<andythenorth>maybe tao of FIRS...
15:16<andythenorth>hmm
15:16<andythenorth>the tao of python pretty much *is* the tao of FIRS :o
15:17<andythenorth>"There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it.
15:17<andythenorth>Although that way may not be obvious at first unless you're Dutch."
15:17<andythenorth>FooBar is dutch :)
15:19<@Alberth>is FIRS turing complete?
15:19<andythenorth>I have *no* idea :)
15:20<andythenorth>how do you test that?
15:24-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4dbabf77.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
15:24<@Alberth> in practice Turing completeness means that the rules followed in sequence on arbitrary data can produce the result of any calculation. This requires, at a minimum, conditional branching (an "if" and "goto" statement) and the ability to change arbitrary memory locations
15:24<@Alberth>according to wikipedia
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15:26<andythenorth>probably not turing complete then
15:26<andythenorth>is nfo turing complete?
15:32<@Alberth>does it have a sequence of instructions?
15:33<andythenorth>it has bytes in a row
15:33<andythenorth>:P
15:34<andythenorth>we should apply this to patches get blocked by trying to find the perfect way to do things:
15:34<andythenorth>"Now is better than never."
15:35<@Alberth>I would be happy to have my patch working at all, currently :)
15:35<Rubidium>andythenorth: so you'd like to use the old PBS implementation?
15:35<andythenorth>yes please
15:35<Rubidium>(even the new PBS implementation wasn't perfect in the begin)
15:36<andythenorth>if you could just add a setting for the old one...
15:38<@Alberth>I told you practice is different :)
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15:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22043 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: invalidate the right windows when a part of a train is flipped in the depot
15:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22044 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4493]: update the consist cache when a part of a train is flipped in the depot
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15:57*andythenorth stares at 94 open FIRS tickets
15:58<andythenorth>better than 4494 fs tickets :P
15:58<@Alberth>anyone interesting enough to solve?
15:58<andythenorth>maybe not tonight
15:58<andythenorth>I need to stop industry smoke animation being in sync
15:58<andythenorth>dunno how yet
15:59<@Alberth>luckily most of those 4000 are closed already :)
16:04*andythenorth ponders a patch for fencing tiles
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16:07-!-Markslap is now known as Markk
16:12*andythenorth suspects the answer will be 'do it nfo'
16:12<andythenorth>:|
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16:39<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22045 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Move cancelling the current loading order on deleting the current order to a separate function.
16:40<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22046 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_func.h saveload/afterload.cpp): -Fix [FS#4487]: Make sure order indices stay in range when copying, sharing, unsharing or deleting all orders.
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17:02<dihedral>Zuu, everything is grey at night :-P
17:03<andythenorth>good night
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17:04<Rubidium>dihedral: really? I've done this research... and in the European summer at the north pole it's light at night, and in the winter it's light at the south pole. So, at either pole it's light in the winter and summer, so currently "day night" works just fine
17:05<dihedral>i did not know openttd had poles :-P
17:05-!-Chillosophy [Chillosoph@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:05<Rubidium>dihedral: I'm talking about the real world here
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17:05<Zuu>Also if I look out of my window I only see black and lights.
17:05<Chris_Booth_>I didn't know openttd had day cycles
17:06<Zuu>(apart from the reflections)
17:06<Rubidium>Zuu: that must be a measurement error
17:06<@Belugas>night
17:06<Rubidium>night Belugas
17:07<dihedral>Chris_Booth, at least one every tick :-P
17:07<Zuu>Maby OpenTTD should use the video camera of the computer (if the user have one) to create a mirror image to blend with the night mode picture.
17:07<Pulec>for what setting is openttd trully hardcore?
17:07<Zuu>And if users complain, we'll tell them that it is realistic. :-)
17:08<Pulec>i am fun of loosing is fun!
17:08<Pulec>:D
17:08<Pulec>*fan
17:08<Zuu>Station spread := min value
17:08<Pulec>spread?
17:08<Zuu>that gives the largest size of a station you can build.
17:08<@Terkhen>good night
17:08<Pulec>for loading and stuff?
17:08<Zuu>Set it to 4, and you can't build stations larger than 4x4
17:09<Pulec>well that does not make sense
17:09<Rubidium>enable reversing at signals, set the timeout to 1
17:09<Pulec>when some city is big
17:09<Pulec>i would need like 10 stations
17:09<Zuu>You wanted to have it hard.
17:09<Pulec>thats not the hard i want
17:09<Rubidium>disable "improved catchment area"
17:09<Zuu>You didn't specify what kind of hard you wanted..
17:09<Pulec>the point of the game should be build transport network small enough and effective enough
17:09<Pulec>because after you get to + finnacialy
17:10<Zuu>Get BaseCost mod and set all costs factors to <a large number>.
17:10<Pulec>you can build islands just for fun
17:10<V453000>sorry, did I hear "SMALL" ?
17:10<Pulec>but it wont make you make your trains and busses work effectively
17:10<Pulec>and its very hard in big network
17:10<Pulec>small because of the managment of the network
17:10<Pulec>if its big its get complicated
17:11<dihedral>set all 4 limit settings to 0
17:11<Pulec>and everything affects everything
17:11<dihedral>V453000, you have a highlight an "small"??
17:11<V453000>well, you have to find some good way how to manage it all when the network gets bigger then :)
17:11<Zuu>With a low station size limit, you will be forced to set up more connections. Creating a more mesh style of network.
17:11<Pulec>then the real fun is in goal servers or what?
17:11<V453000>dihedral: no, just hit me in the eye :p
17:11<dihedral>i was wondering if they used to call you that at school :-D
17:12<V453000>duh :)
17:12<dihedral>with limits set to 0 you will be forced to build with the terrain :-)
17:12<V453000>:)
17:12<V453000>that would be ... interesting, mostly impossible :)
17:12<Zuu>Turn of building on slope and you get even more fun :-)
17:12<V453000>if you cared not to build "small" :p
17:13<Pulec>i dont understand your limits
17:13<V453000>then get long fast trains and you are fucked twice :p
17:13<Pulec>i like to make openttd more realistic...
17:13<V453000>Pulec: limits of terraforming
17:13<V453000>max_terraform_burst or something like that
17:13<Pulec>does transport comapnys get huuuge amounts of money like in game?
17:13-!-Chillosophy [Chillosoph@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:13<Pulec>i am looking forward for that ibm city project
17:13<V453000>Pulec: it is a game, not reality btw
17:14-!-Chillosophy [Chillosoph@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
17:14<Pulec>i know
17:14<Pulec>but i use realistic setting for train
17:14<Pulec>and i like the idea ibm had
17:14<V453000>you use realistic acceleration ... they could have also called it "advanced acceleration" and you would use it then?
17:14<Pulec>make solution for real problem in a game
17:14<Pulec>if it was advanced i would still use it
17:15<Pulec>name is not important
17:15<Pulec>the effect is
17:15<V453000>then what does it have to do with realism :)
17:15<Pulec>it just looks really stupid that train going over 100km/h stopes because of few high slopes
17:16<Rubidium>it's also stupid that a train takes days to get up to top speed
17:16<V453000>:D
17:16<Rubidium>and needs thousands of kilometers for that
17:16<V453000>nice point :D
17:16<Pulec>well thats the problem of the time
17:16<Pulec>but in real time for player it looks good
17:16<Pulec>but how long is one title?
17:16<Pulec>1km?
17:17<Chris_Booth_>well that is an issue
17:17<Rubidium>about 668 kilometer
17:17<V453000>:D
17:17<V453000>:D
17:18<Chris_Booth_>it realy depends on if you use scale or time as your measure
17:18<Chris_Booth_>if you use scale you really are fucked
17:18<Pulec>one title?
17:18<Pulec>wtfff?
17:18<Chris_Booth_>since builds, trains, RVs, Plane and Boats all are in different scales
17:18<Rubidium>Chris_Booth_: but their tiles are all 668 kilometer
17:18<Pulec>any czech users here?
17:18<Pulec>i wanna make web pages
17:19<Pulec>i make majncraft.cz now
17:19<Chris_Booth_>in time 1 day is ~ 2 seconds
17:19<V453000>what do you need webpage for
17:19<Pulec>and make a list of recommended settings
17:19<Pulec>defaults is wierd
17:19<Pulec>too many towns in bigger map :D
17:19<V453000>what for example
17:19<dihedral>...?
17:19<Pulec>and the original train speeding
17:19<V453000>well, that is why openttd has so many settings - configure them
17:19<Pulec>i DO THAT
17:19<Pulec>lol
17:19<V453000>original train acceleration isnt default for a long time
17:19<Pulec>but i would like to make list of settings
17:20<Pulec>is not?
17:20<dihedral>feel free to make a list of settings :-P
17:20<Pulec>i always had it set fr that
17:20<Pulec>yeah i am feeling freee :P
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17:20<dihedral>cat openttd.cfg > list_of_settings
17:20<V453000>there is no set of good settings, play as you like
17:20<Pulec>i was just asking for czech people here
17:20<Pulec>sigh
17:20<V453000>I am czech
17:20<dihedral>V453000, you just got yourself a new friend :-D
17:21<Pulec>and you are in london?
17:21<Pulec>great
17:21<V453000>london?
17:21<V453000>wtf are you talking about
17:21<Chris_Booth_>lol he is not in london
17:21<Pulec>whois told me that :D
17:21<dihedral>...
17:21<V453000>whois obviously knows shit :)
17:21<Chris_Booth_>whois is wrong
17:21<dihedral>whois told you the server he is connected to ;-)
17:21<Pulec>moravia or bohemia then?
17:21<dihedral>not which country he is from
17:22<V453000>bohemia, but I dont see how it matters :)
17:22<@SmatZ>[23:21:30] [Whois] Pulec is online via coulomb.oftc.net (London, United Kingdom).
17:22<V453000>:D
17:22<Pulec>yeah
17:22<Pulec>fail for me
17:22<@SmatZ>oooo Pulec is from London!
17:22<Pulec>i would rather kill myself then by in London
17:22<@SmatZ>:P
17:22<Chris_Booth_>SmatZ: so are you :P
17:22-!-Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
17:22<@SmatZ>:)
17:22<Chris_Booth_>what is wrong with london?
17:22<Pulec>i was there on LSD few times, good times, but that city is so ***** big
17:22<dihedral>and SmatZ likes music :-P
17:22<Pulec>i like nature
17:22<Pulec>not london
17:23<@SmatZ>Pulec: are you on LSD now?
17:23<Pulec>no
17:23<Chris_Booth_>London is amazing!
17:23<Pulec>i am just getting high from my own flowers
17:23*dihedral preferes Oxford
17:23<Pulec>great for playing ottd
17:23<Pulec>but i rather play some Dwarf Fortress
17:23<@SmatZ>ok :p
17:23<V453000>I suddenly see why do you need realism in openttd
17:23<dihedral>SmatZ, so, yes he is :-D
17:23<Pulec>V453000 i was asking bohemia or moravia because i am deciding which university to go to
17:24<Pulec>brno is cool but school sux, praha sux, but school is great
17:24<Pulec>really?
17:24<Pulec>why i need realism then?
17:24<Pulec>lol
17:24<Pulec>because of the drugs
17:24<Pulec>lol yey
17:24<Pulec>:D
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17:24<Pulec>yeah i like to stay in reality most of the time
17:24<dihedral>after that monoloque id not bother with thinking about uni just yet :-P
17:24<@SmatZ>:)
17:25<Pulec>yeah sorry for that
17:25<dihedral>you're welcome
17:25<Pulec>i find myself doing that last few days a lot
17:25<Chris_Booth_>Reality is overrated
17:25<Pulec>its the goji berries
17:25<dihedral>SmatZ, that too should answer your question
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17:26<Pulec>damn that should be query command
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17:40<@SmatZ>Chris_Booth_: FS#4495 needs a savegame
17:41<Chris_Booth_>SmatZ: its a multi player game
17:41<Chris_Booth_>and I am current testing something
17:41<Chris_Booth_>I may actualy close it
17:42<Chris_Booth_>ok I am closing it
17:42<@SmatZ>...
17:43<Chris_Booth_>its not a openttd error
17:43<Chris_Booth_>its a UKRS error
17:43<Chris_Booth_>I can add a save if you want
17:43<@SmatZ>yes
17:43<Chris_Booth_>but game only crashes when I clone a UKRS 2 train
17:43<Chris_Booth_>and not any other trains
17:43<@SmatZ>still it shouldn't crash
17:45<@planetmaker>good late evening
17:45<@SmatZ>hello planetmaker
17:47*Rubidium ponders making the glorious comment: can't join the server
17:48<@SmatZ>:)
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17:49<Chris_Booth_>Rubidium: no one can join the server I add a save. server should have a save aswell
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19:15<dihedral>good night
19:20-!-Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.]
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>do you know this feeling where you load one of your old TTO games, and you recognize your company colour, but what you see is totally AI-style building, so you start to wonder...?
19:21<@SmatZ>:)
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19:22<Wolf01>'night
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19:22<@SmatZ>actually, even my TTO games look quite fine :)
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>on a different note: anyone considered implementing a TTO-compatibility german town name generator?
19:23<@SmatZ>in what way is the one in OTTD broken?
19:23<@SmatZ>(I know it shows some "german town names are broken" text)
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>it generates totally different town names
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what triggers the message, but it may be that the stored names generate duplicates or something
19:25<@SmatZ>are TTD town names broken too?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure...
19:29<@SmatZ>http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/TRT05.SV1 my latest TTO savegame :) according to savgame date, I was 12 :)
19:30<@SmatZ>I discovered the cheat that with 1 vehicle to vehicle limit, when you built a multiheaded engine, only 1 part was built
19:30<@SmatZ>for half the price
19:30<@SmatZ>but when you sold it, you got the whole price :P
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>err... :p
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>at the vehicle limit, my computer was so slow, that i usually didn't bother anymore
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>ARGH... a crash...
19:36<@SmatZ>:)
19:36<@SmatZ>in trunk?
19:36<@SmatZ>quite likely
19:36<Eddi|zuHause> [07] bin/openttd(_Z20MoveBuoysToWaypointsv+0xba) [0x723e8a]
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>r22012M
19:36<@SmatZ>hmm
19:37<@SmatZ>today's nightly should be crashy
19:37<@SmatZ>not r22012
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'll upload the savegame to the bug tracker
19:40<@SmatZ>ok
19:41<+glx>there's a M in his version
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>the M should really not have anything to do with that ;)
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm... how do i find out the filename of a TTO Savegame that gets shown by company name in the load window?
19:43<+glx>it's in the save
19:43<@SmatZ>first ~25 bytes of the .sv1 file
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19:49<Eddi|zuHause>i hope this was the right one
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>i found a ttd savegame, and it also says the message about town names being buggy
19:51<@SmatZ>did it work in the past?
19:51<@SmatZ>FS#4496
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure. maybe
19:52<@SmatZ>ok, 0.7 loads it fine
19:53<@SmatZ>nice map :)
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19:54<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know the map, i couldn't load it ;)
19:54<@SmatZ>:)
19:54<@SmatZ>run 0.7.x
19:54<@SmatZ>hmm there are some oil rigs without statinos
19:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that happened when you ran over the station limit
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>0.7.4 had warnings in ai_road.cpp?
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... lots more wanrings
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>but it seems to have built
19:57<@SmatZ>I am reworking savegame conversion a bit...
19:57<@SmatZ>it's a lot of work :(
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>it would help remembering the maps better, if the names wouldn't all be different :p
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23:27<ccfreak2k>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7708405/doot.png
23:27<ccfreak2k>Lovely.
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 10 00:00:55 2011