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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-10

---Logopened Thu Feb 10 00:00:55 2011
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00:59*TruePikachu wonders why nobody updates the wiki
01:00<TruePikachu>I may soon go on an {{outdated}} spree
01:02<@Yexo>it helps a lot more to just start updating instead of adding {{outdated}} everywhere
01:10<TruePikachu>Yeah, but I can't be trusted to add everything ;)
01:11<TruePikachu>night
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02:22<@planetmaker>moin
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02:32<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:42<Eddi|zuHause>is it known that when the config file states a higher window size than a maximised window is able to take, the title menu is not centered?
03:43<@planetmaker>say again?
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03:45<@planetmaker>Currently I often have defined a window size of 2560x1600 when starting a new game - on a screen of 1280x800 - and the window resizes to full screen and the menu is centred for me
03:45<@planetmaker>(if that was your statement it doesn't work, it must be OS specific :-P)
03:45<dihedral>good morning
03:46<@planetmaker>moin dihedral
03:49<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it smells like a SDL bug
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>happens in both 0.7 and trunk
03:50<Rubidium>just maximise the screen and set any resolution; SDL won't cancel the maximisation
03:51<Rubidium>even though it (happily) tells OpenTTD it could allocate a surface, and then tells OpenTTD that the resolution is the actual resolution we passed
03:52<Rubidium>so, either SDL has to cancel maximisation or it has to return the actual resolution back to OpenTTD
03:58<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: i have another game where trains get "go via" orders, but they don't crash
04:00-!-wargh [51ea85b5@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
04:00*Eddi|zuHause has the feeling the interpretation of "ttdpatch-compatible nonstop" is wrong for tto-savegames
04:12<@planetmaker>oh, I love that. "...Please see the attached image..." and the attachement is ... *.docx
04:12<@planetmaker>(no, not a spam mail)
04:13<@planetmaker>but OOo fails on opening it, of course :S
04:16<@SmatZ>people who send images via email by putting it to a word document are not worth communicating with
04:17<Rubidium>SmatZ: I've actually sent binaries in a word document
04:17<@Terkhen>heh :D
04:17<@SmatZ>:-(
04:18<Rubidium>got to love an environment where you may not start any "unknown" .exe
04:18<__ln__>a word document is an excellent method to send a screenshot of a browser showing a 403 page.
04:18<@SmatZ>Rubidium: why in a word document? because the antispam filtered out normal text?
04:18<@SmatZ>:)
04:18<Rubidium>then you just use put it in a word document and run it from there: voila, you've got your command prompt
04:19<@SmatZ>:D
04:19<Rubidium>ofcourse, later we found out that a missing destination for a shortcut would get us a "select the executable to actually run" window, which made things much easier
04:20<@SmatZ>:)
04:21<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: still, they are broken :(
04:22<@SmatZ>one problem is that TTDP savegames are "older" than OTTD ones (they use old map format), so they go through all savegame conversion, but they contain some "new" features, like locks, waypoints, ...
04:22<@SmatZ>trams...
04:25<@planetmaker>[10:16] <SmatZ> people who send images via email by putting it to a word document are not worth communicating with <-- well, yes. But I'm obliged to do so
04:25<@SmatZ>yeah :(
04:26<@SmatZ>sorry, it was not very nice from me
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: these are TTO savegames, and it seems to interpret the "use non-stop as default" as "use ttdpatch-nonstop" during conversion
04:26<@SmatZ>I just know how angry it makes me
04:26<@planetmaker>nah, you're right, SmatZ :-) - so it does me.
04:26<Rubidium>am I right to assume that the people that do send images in unopenable word documents are those that pay you (dean/boss, grant people, etc)?
04:26<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: I think it's intended
04:26<@planetmaker>Seems I'll either have to a) ask a collegue to give me a print out or b) mail back and ask for "send me in another format"
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: but i don't believe it's the reason for the crash
04:27<@planetmaker>both is VERY inefficient
04:27<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: in this case, it is that train that causes the crash, because the game thinks it's a waypoint order
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: but it also crashes when i change the nonstop setting
04:27<@SmatZ>planetmaker: can s/he export it to PDF?
04:28<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: while the other savegame has proper orders then
04:28<@planetmaker>They should be able... they get millions of € for this project for... this kind of stuff
04:28<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, some conversion just went wrong :) maybe it thinks that station is a waypoint, so it changes that order to a go-via order, but also it crashes, because it can't find a waypoint with that order (only a station)
04:29<@SmatZ>:)
05:04*dihedral wants to work on grapes but is sat at work :-(
05:04<dihedral>grr
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05:06<@peter1138>better have some wine
05:06<@peter1138>then you won't care that you're at work
05:07<@planetmaker>btw, Eddi|zuHause if you're bored sometime: using dbsetXL with the double deck coaches seems to have some funny influence on the grfs - but I can't be bothered to really investigate, esp. what the double deck coaches do. Maybe you can be bothered ;-)
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05:17<dihedral>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4491 <- how hard would it be to implement something along these lines?
05:18<dihedral>peter1138, lol :-)
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05:52<Wolf01>hello
05:52<@SmatZ>hello Wolf01
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06:11<xiong>Are there known issues with interval servicing? I asked about this a couple days ago and got pointed to this: http://docs.openttd.org/vehicle_8cpp_source.html#l00170
06:13<@SmatZ>I don't think there are any known problems
06:13<xiong>I can't read python well but this seems to tell me that a vehicle due for service that has a depot order will never interval depot. I don't understand the other two conditions.
06:14<xiong>But I have a test case, a loop of track with depot sidings, around which trains cycle endlessly, through two stations with non-stop-via. These never use the depots.
06:15<@peter1138>What does python have to do with it?
06:15<xiong>I dunno; is that C? I only write Perl these days; it's been 20 years since I touched any C.
06:16<xiong>I don't pretend to be a Perl expert either, if that's your next question.
06:17<xiong>But I would like to try to learn what can interfere with interval servicing. Ordering trains to depot seems too rigid.
06:17<@SmatZ>the vehicle won't go to depot if it has depot orders, if it is loading or if it is going to depot
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06:18<xiong>You mean to say, if it is in the process of loading, as in ordered to full load. I've seen that; a train will die all the way down to 0% reliability without abandoning the platform for a depot. That's fine.
06:19<xiong>It's rather odd to say that it won't attempt to go to depot if it is already going to depot but I understand the line of thinking, maybe.
06:19<xiong>None of this explains my test case. Is this a known thing or is it unusual enough that I should show it?
06:20<@Yexo>if the depot is too far away it won't find it, there is a limit on the distance it'll travel to a depot for servicing
06:20<@peter1138>yeah, it's related to pathfinding
06:21<@peter1138>iirc
06:21<xiong>How far is too far? My depot sidings have 14-tile approaches.
06:22<@Yexo>IIRC 16 tiles, but not really sure
06:22<@Yexo>oh, and any other pathfinder penalties in between may reduce that distance
06:22<@peter1138>curves, signals...
06:22<@peter1138>probably the depot itself :p
06:22<xiong>Oh dear. Perhaps with the diagonals, I hit 16 tiles. And certainly, there are signals on the approaches.
06:23<dihedral>depots have a signal built in, do they not?
06:23<@Yexo>try "set yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty" in the console and increase the value
06:24<@Yexo>"set yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty" queries the value, "set yapf.maximum_go_to_depot_penalty <new_value>" changes it
06:24<xiong>So, this is Bad. I'm building for 12-tile-max trains. So if I want interval servicing, I will have to shorten the approach tracks and a train waiting (for another train to leave depot) will have its caboose stuck out on the main.
06:25*xiong tries
06:25<@SmatZ>also, the search is not run at each tick
06:25<@SmatZ>(at least, it used not to be)
06:25<xiong>?? It is not possible to paste from clipboard to the console?
06:25<@SmatZ>worksforme
06:26<@SmatZ>select text by mouse, middle click to paste
06:26<@SmatZ>depends on your system :)
06:26<@peter1138>reserved paths interfere with the search, don't they?
06:27<@SmatZ>good idea :)
06:28<xiong>Well, that did the trick!
06:28<xiong>Yexo++ # for the win
06:31<xiong>I suppose the hazard in setting this too high is that a train may wander the map heading for a distant depot. I'll fiddle with it until I find a satisfactory minimum.
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06:33<xiong>No joy with the middle-click, SmatZ. Not important. I should change this in my openttd.cfg anyway.
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06:33<@Yexo>xiong: set_newgame changes the value in your config file
06:33<@Yexo>no need to open your config file in a separate program
06:34<xiong>Yes, Yexo; but it's easier for me to edit using common tools, than to master yet another interface that is almost, but not quite, like bash.
06:35<xiong>I have a whole user interface philosophy, that may not be the same as yours. I'd rather use a relatively small number of tools consistently and well than a large number poorly. As it is, I use dozens on a regular basis.
06:36<xiong>I'm trying to avoid hundreds.
06:37<xiong>I have always argued that, for instance, there is no need for a scenario editor in simple games like Sim City -- or rather, that the scenario editor can exist and even be full-featured but that it should have an import/export feature, too.
06:38<xiong>So, you can create a map, including terrain and so forth, as a simple GIF or indexed PNG, with the palette representing the various values a tile may assume. No good, perhaps, for fine detail; but excellent for broad work to use proven, general tools, like The Gimp.
06:40<xiong>The smartest thing Apple ever did was to include basic text editing in the Macintosh Toolbox, so that every text editing field, everywhere, worked exactly the same (except when some bonehead had to roll his own).
06:41<xiong>Well, my problem is solved and Thank You very much. I'm trying to roll out a wiki page on the topic of industrial service and I'll get back to that now.
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07:14<Eddi|zuHause>wtf was that? i'm away for an hour and the channel goes rampant?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i have never used the doulbe deck coaches grf
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07:30<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes. But you replied there concerning this somewhat funny savegame. And yes, I see that, too, that cargodist game cannot be loaded and no version is given.
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07:32<Eddi|zuHause>bah... i'm bored... i don't want to code an export as excel file in python, even though (or because?) the job is fairly trivial...
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07:43<dihedral>:-D
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08:17<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22047 /trunk/src/order_backup.cpp: -Fix: selling a vehicle triggered the assert added in r22041
08:26<dihedral>can you not create a factory method for those things?
08:27<dihedral>then the checks is done in the factory method and you do not have to bother with them any longer
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08:31<Rubidium>dihedral: you mean Factory->Construct()->doSomething() really works when Factory->Construct() return NULL?
08:32<Rubidium>or... should Factory->Construct() "detonate", i.e. crash the game with a message: can't allocate stuff anymore?
08:32<dihedral>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/22047/
08:32<dihedral>i was looking at that
08:33<Rubidium>yeah, that's the exception: the one and only place where it doesn't do something with the just created object
08:33<dihedral>ok :)
08:33<Rubidium>although... new can't return NULL in C++, unless you do some other tricks
08:33<dihedral>that is why the factory method
08:34<dihedral>check if can be allocated, or return null
08:35<Rubidium>but that actually makes things harder
08:35<Rubidium>as you'd need to template that factory method
08:35<Rubidium>otherwise it won't return the right class
08:35<dihedral>yep
08:35<Rubidium>and then you've got problems with constructor parameters
08:36<dihedral>ah
08:36<Rubidium>so you can't use a templated factory
08:36<Rubidium>so you have to manually write all factories
08:36<Rubidium>so you basically add a lot of small functions that do nothing more than return CanAllocate() ? new Foo() : NULL;
08:37<dihedral>i thought they could be templated or overridden in the cases where they cannot be templated
08:37<Rubidium>and you'd need to check for NULL later on
08:37<Rubidium>even then, most pool items are constructed in Cmd* methods, which are usually ran in test and execute mode
08:38<Rubidium>so you don't want to actually execute in the test run, meaning you still have to add the CanAllocate to your normal functions, making the factory actually doing duplicate work
08:38<dihedral>heh
08:39<Rubidium>the only thing r22041 did is add a check to the current "factory", which only allocates the memory, that there has actually been a test for allocating that memory
08:39<dihedral>thankfully things are not multithreaded :-D
08:40<Rubidium>things are, just a lock is held when the game state is queried/updated
08:40<Rubidium>(with SDL the drawing happens in a seperate thread)
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08:41<dihedral>yes, but the drawing does not allocate new pool items does it?
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08:42<Rubidium>dihedral: true
08:43<dihedral>that would probably be quite nasty if you had multithreading and test and execute statges and checks in tests but not in execute :-P
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08:46<Eddi|zuHause>which is why you can't just make an existing program multithreaded. you need different design principles
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09:00<dihedral>Client: "The server is slow, can you please check it?"
09:00<dihedral>Me: "everything looks normal"
09:00<dihedral>Client: "But everything is so slow, even Outlook and Adobe Reader"
09:01<dihedral>...
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09:08<@peter1138>welcome to IT
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09:11<dihedral>i must find better clients :-P
09:11<dihedral>but people who know what they are doing will not pay that cash for the servers :-D
09:14<@peter1138>exactly
09:18<@Belugas>hello
09:18<__ln__>hello
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09:46<fjb>Moin
09:46<avdg>moin
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10:04<supermop>hello
10:05<dihedral>grr - channel #openttd.notice stops me from renaming to DIHEDRAL
10:06<dihedral>:-P
10:21<+glx>dihedral: use /ns identify for that
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10:23<@peter1138>/ns ?
10:23<+glx>msg nickserv
10:30<dihedral>ah :-)
10:30<dihedral>good to know :-)
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10:56<Ammler>what is in .notice, what is not here?
10:58<CIA-11>OpenTTD: glx * r22048 /trunk/src/articulated_vehicles.cpp: -Fix (r4495): company 0 does not always exist, so put temporary vehicles in a valid company
10:58<@Yexo>only commits
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11:14<jack>hello
11:14<ZirconiumX>hello....?
11:14<jack>i have a question, i just loaded open ttd on my linux OS and i havent played ttd in quite some time, how to play against the computer?
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11:15<ZirconiumX>Open openttd
11:15<jack>ok
11:15<jack>alright its open
11:15<ZirconiumX>on the main menu go to Check online content
11:15<jack>ok
11:15<ZirconiumX>In the top right hand corner there is a box
11:16<ZirconiumX>click it and type AI
11:16<ZirconiumX>Download one of the results
11:16<jack>alright
11:16<ZirconiumX>then click the X at the top of the window (in openttd, not openttd)
11:17<ZirconiumX>Then do the stuff for New game
11:17<ZirconiumX>that'll get you going
11:17<jack>alright!
11:17<jack>thanks!
11:18<ZirconiumX>;-) I try to help
11:18<jack>well im off
11:18<jack>cya!
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11:22<ZirconiumX>Hmmm ^^
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12:25<Chaot_s>Hi all, could someone help me with a signal problem i have? i build this setup, though it doesn't work... is the tutorial wrong? or am i stupid (i would expact the last one)
12:25<Chaot_s>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Presignal_Basics part 2 second picture
12:26<@planetmaker>the tutorial is ok
12:26<@planetmaker>"does not work" though is a description as vague as it can get
12:27<@SmatZ>Chaot_s: remember those signals by station are two-way exit signals
12:27<Chaot_s>indeed. okay, when that setup is "flooded" with trains, the train on the lower trac (B) leaves and drives to signal A
12:27<@planetmaker>white not yellow
12:28<@planetmaker>Chaot_s: that rather sounds like a problem with your network elsewhere.
12:28<Chaot_s>seems i messed up then :D
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12:29<Chaot_s>so a is yellow horizontal, B and C yellow vertical, and D normal 1 way.
12:31<@planetmaker>B and C is white vertical
12:31<@planetmaker>(exit signal)
12:32<@planetmaker>it will fail majorly with yellow vertical (combo signals)
12:32<Chaot_s>indeed, been tryin this for 4 hours now :D
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12:33<Chaot_s>then one other question, if i have 3 tunnels besides each other do those link the same way as a train station does?
12:34<Chaot_s>in other words, can i presignal those the same way :)
12:34<@planetmaker>a tunnel is just a continuous piece of track in that sense. So if it works with normal tracks instead of tunnels, it works with tunnels
12:36<Chaot_s>okay :) trying to figure out why trains stuf up waiting for 1 tunnel to becom fre whil 2 tunnels beside that one tunnel are free :)
12:36<Chaot_s>thanx allready by the way :D
12:37<@planetmaker>you're welcome
12:38<Chaot_s>only one thing i could complain about :D
12:38<Chaot_s>the game is too damned adicting :D
12:38<Chaot_s>lol
12:39<@planetmaker>hehe
12:40<@planetmaker>a good way to learn might be to join a multiplayer server. You could build your company but have a look how others build at the same time
12:41<Chaot_s>i'm...
12:41<Chaot_s>though they are total noobs :)
12:41<Chaot_s>even i am better :D
12:41<Chaot_s>they are real live friends though.
12:42<@planetmaker>depends on the server ;-)
12:42<Chaot_s>my personal dedicated server :)
12:42<Chaot_s>private :D
12:46<@planetmaker>Then you cannot learn much ;-)
12:46<@planetmaker>when you always play with / against the same ;-)
12:47<Chaot_s>though when the game keeps as much fun as it is now i'll investigate the security of the game and host it on a dedicated box in the data center
12:47<Chaot_s>i dont know if it's a risk.
12:47<Chaot_s>i have an Rcon password set up, so that is not a roblem
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13:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22049 /trunk/src/road_map.h: -Codechange: Add assert condition to GetRoadOwner.
13:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22050 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp:
13:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Fix-ish [FS#4496]: in ancient savegames, e.g. TTO savegames, non primary
13:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: vehicles (wagons and such) could have unitnumbers or even orders. However, these
13:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: orders would not be updated when a station is removed. As such some savegames
13:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: have wagons with current orders to invalid stations which triggers trouble in
13:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: the load conversion. So, trash any orders/unitnumbers a non-primary vehicle has.
13:29<Rubidium>oh shoot... consistency fail
13:32<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22051 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r21935): Roads under road stops would get a wrong owner after overbuilding.
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13:41<Jack>Hello, I am using Open TTD on my linux OS system and i just downloaded the AI trans for the game.How do i initiate AI into the game? I can't figure out how to get it to work
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13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22052 /trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: catalan - 11 changes by arnau
13:46<@planetmaker>Jack: you might try the most obvious entry from the main menu
13:47<Jack>i did the AI configuration but that even though i configured AItrans it didnt work when i went under new game
13:48<Rubidium>planetmaker: what if he's using say 1.0.5?
13:48<@planetmaker>it has an AI entry there, too?
13:48<Rubidium>hmm, was thinking about the "gear" menu
13:49<@planetmaker>"gear"?
13:49<Jack>im using 1.0.5
13:49<@planetmaker>Jack: AIs will most possibly start a bit later than you. You set that delay in the AI config.
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13:49<@planetmaker>you also chose there how many companies there shall be at all.
13:49<@planetmaker>Did you set that to anything else than 0?
13:50<Jack>i just checked that, it was set to 1 year
13:50<Jack>that seemed to be the issue
13:50<Rubidium>planetmaker: yes, the menu that looks like a gear with OpenGFX (or a wrench with the original graphics)
13:50<Jack>alright thanks!
13:50<@planetmaker>and "didn't work" is quite vague... what does the AI window tell you from ingame
13:51<@planetmaker>Rubidium: in the main menu they all have the same button without graphics ;-)
13:51<Jack>the cpu wouldnt start at the same time as i would when i started a new game. I couldn't find the other companies on the map
13:51<@planetmaker>but there are different main menus, I guess
13:51<@planetmaker>Jack: if you want the AI to start _now_ open the console and type "start_ai"
13:52<@planetmaker>without quotes
13:52<Rubidium>in any case... I seem to be growing blind quickly
13:52<@planetmaker>well, main menu ingame != main menu general
13:52<@planetmaker>it IS ambigeous
13:53<Rubidium>intro menu, gear menu, disk menu ;)
13:53<Jack>i set it so the AI would show up after 1 day into the game and the AI still hasn't come up
13:54<@planetmaker>it needs time to think
13:54<Rubidium>it's 1 day + some random range of (I believe) 30 days
13:55<Rubidium>though... has the AI not come up, or has the AI just not built anything yet?
13:55<@planetmaker>also, if the AI doesn't suite you... you might try other AIs, too
13:55<@planetmaker>but most or all first need some time to think
13:55<@planetmaker>Or do you lay your first track already on January 1st the year you start the game?
13:56<Jack>ah there we go
13:56<Jack>you're right, he showed up 3 months later haha
13:56<Jack>alright thanks a lot!
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13:57<@planetmaker>no problem
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13:59<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: Yes. That's what F1's for.
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14:00<@planetmaker>?
14:00<@planetmaker>the AI doesn't have that option obviously
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14:05<andythenorth>evenings
14:06<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:06<andythenorth>can I have a new callback?
14:07<@planetmaker>salut andythenorth
14:07<@planetmaker>Sorry, callbacks are out today :-P
14:07<andythenorth>15f: Show even more additional text in industry window
14:07<andythenorth>basically a 'more info' thing for industries
14:08<andythenorth>shows "whatever crap I choose to put there"
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14:09<Hirundo>What's wrong with the existing CB?
14:09<andythenorth>nothing
14:09<andythenorth>it's awesome
14:09<andythenorth>but if opening the industry window showed a small essay
14:09<andythenorth>it might be offputting
14:10<andythenorth>this would be a progressive disclosure thing
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14:11<Hirundo>If you can't tell what you need to say it in a few lines of text, FIRS is becoming too complex :)
14:11<andythenorth>well yes
14:12<andythenorth>in fact, we could start a thread about that
14:12<andythenorth>"Is FIRS getting too complex"
14:12<andythenorth>maybe I could alphabetise it
14:12<andythenorth>I just fancied showing 'other crap'
14:12<andythenorth>stuff like, date industry built, total lifetime cargo production
14:12<andythenorth>stuff that doesn't matter but some players might enjoy
14:13<Hirundo>Add a parameter :)
14:13<andythenorth>could work
14:13<andythenorth>"Show extra crap"
14:13<Hirundo>I guess a lot of people would enable that
14:13*Prof_Frink votes (2i+7)
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15:18<Mazur>Can anyone tell me when a bus stop starts accepting passengers, when it has started providing them (i.e. it has one house in the catchment).
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15:20<@Terkhen>Mazur: since houses usually accept 7/8 passengers, you need two houses in the catchment area
15:20<Mazur>k.
15:21<@Terkhen>or a industry tile that accept 1/8 passengers
15:21<Mazur>Su much for my brilliant scheme to make a pair of active bus stops close together by giving them each one house.
15:22<Mazur>The (3/8 passengers) in a house info, is htat what it provies or accepts?
15:22<Mazur>provides
15:23<@planetmaker>accepts
15:23<@planetmaker>it provides a number based on its population
15:24<Mazur>Which is a city, whose centre is far away
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15:50<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22053 /trunk/src/misc_gui.cpp: -Fix: The land area information window was not updated after a language change.
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15:54<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22054 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: support for rounding the converted units to their closest integral value instead of flooring
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16:10*andythenorth ponders how to fence industry tiles :|
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16:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: define child sprites
16:12<andythenorth>I am thinking that I have to either (a) draw it into the tiles and duplicate the sprite sheets
16:12<@planetmaker>No, you don't. Just draw a fence
16:12<andythenorth>or (b) duplicate the action 2s to have fence / no fence
16:13<@planetmaker>yes
16:13<andythenorth>whether fenced or not varies by layout
16:13<@planetmaker>yes
16:14<andythenorth>I don't like it when there's a fence between industry and station
16:14<@planetmaker>the sprite layout changes... I could programme you that meanwhile in NML, but have little clue about how to do it in NFO ;-)
16:14<andythenorth>especially when using ISR
16:14<andythenorth>I was thinking of making fences automagic
16:14<@planetmaker>you could check the adjacent tile
16:14<andythenorth>yup
16:14<andythenorth>but I need something like 4! variations of each action 2
16:15<andythenorth>maybe a bit less
16:15<andythenorth>I was trying to think of a CPP way to do it
16:15<andythenorth>I first wanted to patch for it
16:15<andythenorth>but there are no map bits free
16:16<andythenorth>so it would have instead to be calculated every time the tile is drawn
16:16<@Yexo>perhaps some map bits can be freed?
16:16<andythenorth> I imagine calculating every time won't be allowed for performance reasons
16:16<andythenorth>so instead I'll calculate it in nfo, which comes to the same :P
16:16<@Yexo>no idea if that's really possible, but it might be worth a look
16:17<andythenorth>ideally a cb with bit mask would just set show fences on N / E / S / W edges of tile
16:17<andythenorth>with some other method to set the sprites (probably put them in register)
16:17<@Yexo>however having such a cb implies it's stored in the map
16:17<@planetmaker>Yexo: but still it should remain newgrf-able. I see not where OpenTTD should make a decision there for the newgrf. Especially as everything is already exposed to the newgrf
16:17<andythenorth>for me, I could probably figure out something in nfo
16:18<andythenorth>but it will be clunky to code, a pain in the ass
16:18<@planetmaker>only thing which I can imagine is a general industry misc flag like 'draw fence around' 'draw no fence towards station' etc
16:18<andythenorth>and it will be of no benefit to other sets
16:18<andythenorth>why not just a cb on the tile?
16:18<@planetmaker>and it'd return?
16:18<@planetmaker>what exactly?
16:18<andythenorth>bit stuffed value
16:19<@planetmaker>road? station? house?
16:19<@planetmaker>all quite valid
16:19<andythenorth>for auto-magic you mean?
16:19<andythenorth>auto-magic would be the responsibility of the newgrf
16:20<andythenorth>the cb would just provide values to a patched drawing routine for the tile
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16:20<andythenorth>quak
16:20<andythenorth>he always turns up at the right moment :)
16:20<andythenorth>it's very spooky
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16:20<andythenorth>how does he do it?
16:21*andythenorth does search for src that draws industry tile
16:22<frosch123>andythenorth: you just discuss the stuff always at the same time
16:22<andythenorth>you mean "after I've had a beer"
16:23<andythenorth>at least it's not always the same stuff :P
16:27<andythenorth>ach
16:27<@Belugas>beer...
16:27<andythenorth>patching in the rail fences isn't straightforward :D
16:27*Belugas wants
16:27*andythenorth has :D
16:29*Belugas would not dare beer at work
16:29<@Belugas>not before home heading
16:30<@Belugas>"yeah yeah... you've worked hard... I should believe that???"
16:31*andythenorth has beer at work
16:31<andythenorth>more often cider
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16:38*andythenorth does read AddSortableSpriteToDraw
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16:39<dihedral>LOL i was just wondering why on earth i was getting company stats and economy info in my bot on an empty game....
16:39<dihedral>the game was running long enough for an AI to start!!
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16:39<andythenorth>what a lot of parameters :P
16:40<@Alberth>dihedral: when a program surprises you like that, it's a sign it's perfect :)
16:41<dihedral>ha!
16:41<dihedral>:-)
16:42<dihedral> ^ mine has a nose ;-)
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16:45<@planetmaker>haha :-)
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16:48<andythenorth>:o
16:48<andythenorth>do newgrf industries have a different drawing routine to default industry?
16:49<Wolf01>'night
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16:52<andythenorth>yah
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17:02<@Belugas>time to GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
17:02<@Belugas>night all :D
17:02<dihedral>night Belugas
17:02<@Alberth>good night Belugas
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17:03*andythenorth thinks few things are as simple as they look :P
17:04<@Terkhen>good night Belugas :)
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17:06<andythenorth>what's the difference between a sprite and a child sprite?
17:06<andythenorth>I'm reading DrawCommonTileSeq
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17:10<@planetmaker>andythenorth: a child sprites origin is relative to its 'mother' sprite
17:10<@planetmaker>and shares the bounding box
17:11<andythenorth>so maybe fences would best be child sprites of the ground tile
17:11<@planetmaker>uhm... they have no bounding box. So: No
17:11<andythenorth>oh
17:11<andythenorth>ok :)
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17:12<@planetmaker>(or I'm wrong, but they definitely have no height, so complicated)
17:12<andythenorth>ok
17:13<andythenorth>if they were child sprites of the building that has certain issues
17:13<andythenorth>maybe they should just be sprites
17:13<andythenorth>I can 1/4 see what needs to be done
17:14<@planetmaker>andythenorth: they need to become part of the tile layout.
17:15<andythenorth>so patching DrawTileLayout
17:15<@planetmaker>which can have ground sprite(s), building sprite(s) and child sprites. The building sprite defines the actual bounding box
17:15<andythenorth>to add them to the sprite group
17:15<@planetmaker>I hope I don't tell rubish here ;-)
17:16<andythenorth>it makes sense to me
17:16<andythenorth>but I could be as deluded as you :)
17:16<@planetmaker>It's what I gathered when trying to understand how it works in NML ;-)
17:16<andythenorth>I'm not sure where is appropriate to patch, but DrawTileLayout seems best
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17:20<andythenorth>patching DrawNewGRFTileSeq looks wrong
17:20<andythenorth>too far downstream
17:22<andythenorth>is TileLayoutSpriteGroup what comes back from the action 2?
17:24<Hirundo>That is the internal equivalent of a tile layout action2
17:24<andythenorth>is it a thing I can append / insert into?
17:26<Hirundo>That'd affect all *things* that use that action2
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17:27<@Yexo>and no, you can't easily append things to that
17:27<andythenorth>ok
17:27<Hirundo>I doubt that they're intended to be mutable
17:27<@Yexo>you could create a copy with some added sprites, but then you'd have to take care that the copy is freed again
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17:28<andythenorth>const DrawTileSprites *dts = group->dts;
17:29<andythenorth>I could modify dts?
17:30<andythenorth>basically I need to figure out whether to modify what's passed to DrawNewGRFTileSeq()
17:31<andythenorth>or whether to try and draw the sprites myself directly
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17:34<@planetmaker>andythenorth: "alcohol": is it only beverages or also an industrial use product?
17:35<andythenorth>beverages only
17:35<andythenorth>industrial product would be chemicals
17:35<andythenorth>and the ethanol plant doesn't produce it :P
17:35<@Yexo>andythenorth: same as for TileLayoutSpriteGroup, you can't modify it
17:36<andythenorth>so I guess I would have to draw my own sprites
17:36<Rubidium>it's a waste product
17:36<__ln__>andythenorth: will such a newgrf be legal in an islamic country?
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17:37<andythenorth>dunno
17:37<andythenorth>but eating cows is a problem in india
17:37<andythenorth>eating pigs is a problem in israel
17:38<andythenorth>and some people think making petrol from ethanol is immoral :P
17:38<andythenorth>meanwhile others are opposed to coal mining
17:38<andythenorth>my grf is amoral :)
17:39<@SmatZ>what a waste of delicious ethanol!
17:39<@SmatZ>;-)
17:40<@SmatZ>I didn't know one can make petrol from ethanol
17:40<andythenorth>I'm wrong :)
17:40<Rubidium>my point was more that ethanol is essentially waste product of yeast
17:40<andythenorth>I should go to bed
17:40<andythenorth>no no no
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17:40<@SmatZ>:-)
17:40<Rubidium>your baby doesn't want you to go yet
17:41<andythenorth>this is a waste product of yeast http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marmite
17:41<supermop>good evening
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17:41<supermop>firs?
17:41<andythenorth>they're a kind of tree
17:41<andythenorth>popular in scandanavia, and at christmas time
17:41<supermop>spruce?
17:45<andythenorth>is fencing industry tiles worth while?
17:45<Rubidium>"it's realistic"
17:46<andythenorth>well...maybe
17:46<supermop>depends on the industry i'd say
17:46<andythenorth>does it look better?
17:48<andythenorth>I could just draw some tiles with fences on four sides, like default paper mill
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17:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: any opinions on fences?
17:51<andythenorth>I think you made the comment about FIRS matching landscape?
17:51<andythenorth>that's what instigated this...
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18:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I don't mind fences when they make sense
18:08<@planetmaker>Not every industry needs it, but some yes
18:08<andythenorth>especially where there are a lot of empty tiles....
18:10<andythenorth>I think the right answer is to patch for a cb
18:10<supermop>a forest doesn't really need it
18:10<andythenorth>but I suspect I'll end up finding an nfo way to do it
18:10<@Terkhen>good night
18:11<supermop>in fack, I would say arable fields do not either
18:11<supermop>pastures do, so do open pit mines
18:12<andythenorth>good night
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18:13<@planetmaker>good night
18:14<@SmatZ>good night planetmaker
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19:36<TruePikachu>Lol @ company name
19:36<TruePikachu>"%1 Transport"
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20:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm... a fix-ish
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>did we have a change-ish yet?
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---Logclosed Fri Feb 11 00:00:57 2011