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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-11

---Logopened Fri Feb 11 00:00:57 2011
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01:19<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22055 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp: -Fix [FS#4490]: [Squirrel] some invalid squirrel code caused the squirrel compiler to crash
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02:20<@planetmaker>moin
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02:47<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:17<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22056 /trunk/src/strings.cpp:
03:17<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4408]: metric and imperial HP are not the same. As imperial HP are used internally, set a conversion rate for metric HP
03:17<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Change: make the imperial HP to kW conversions a bit more precise
03:21<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like something MB once requested
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03:31<valerik>hello
03:31<valerik>!list
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03:35<@planetmaker>what was that?
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03:47<Eddi|zuHause>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3280
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03:47<@planetmaker>I rather meant this !list person, but yeah :-)
03:50<Rubidium>what he only did was request for him to remove a number of PS values from his choice list
03:50<__ln__>http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/02/11/open-letter-from-ceo-stephen-elop-nokia-and-ceo-steve-ballmer-microsoft/
03:51<Rubidium>and I *really* hope that for each and every of his engines only $wished-1 and $wished+1 are available in metric HP ;)
03:53<@planetmaker>haha :-)
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03:56<@planetmaker>reading that task, it's just as silly to quote a price tag of 124.492€ - totally unrealistic
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04:00<Eddi|zuHause>err... i hate to do this to you, but u have a different savegame that now crashes
04:03<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav <-- this is one version of the savegame i previously uploaded
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04:16<@peter1138>Ravenholm Transport did you say?
04:17<Juzmach>sounds eerie
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm missing an in-joke here, i'm afraid
04:18<@Terkhen>:D
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04:33<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22057 /trunk/src/saveload/ (station_sl.cpp waypoint_sl.cpp): -Fix: waypoint conversion could (previously) silently overfill the pool and crash
04:34<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: works for me (tm)
04:34<@peter1138>silently crash, eh?
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>Error: Assertion failed at line 127 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/core/pool_func.hpp: this->checked != 0
04:34<Eddi|zuHause> [10] bin/openttd(_Z27MoveWaypointsToBaseStationsv+0x219) [0x727fd9]
04:35<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: then I reckon you're not using HEAD
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i just svn up-ed
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>ah
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm slow today
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>i've not woken up yet
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>Error: Assertion failed at line 1113 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/economy.cpp: v->current_order.IsType(OT_LOADING) <-- wtf?
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>Error: Assertion failed at line 1095 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/trunk/src/economy.cpp: front_v->cargo_payment == NULL <- ???
04:45<Rubidium>something is gloriously messed up there
04:45<Rubidium>but I can't really help you with that as I'm not having the exact save dbsetxl and am missing a few NewGRFs
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>the last one is the above savegame, unpaused
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>the previous one is a newer version of that savegame, unpaused
04:45<Rubidium>s/save/same/
04:46<Rubidium>so what for me might be a wagon might be something else for you
04:46<Rubidium>and I don't fancy chasing ghosts
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure what i screwed up in the dbset, but it can't be much...
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>like a vehicle introduction date or something
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04:53<Eddi|zuHause>but it happens with a wide set of savegames from that series...
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>a search/filter in the load window would be nice
04:55<@peter1138>i have loads of saves called "peter1138 transport ..."
04:55<@peter1138>not even all the same game :p
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that's why i started using the starting town name for the savegames ;)
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04:58<Eddi|zuHause>err... something is really weird... in gdb i can't get a useful backtrace, but the crashlog can
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05:14<me84>hi there
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05:20<@planetmaker>moin
05:23<me84>well is any developer rigth here?
05:24<Ammler> never
05:24<@planetmaker>we usually hide. Especially at those questions ;-)
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>developers are very shy animals.
05:24<@planetmaker>^
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05:25<Eddi|zuHause>you have to lure them out with an interesting question
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise they hide
05:25<@Terkhen>@get #openttd -3
05:25<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:26<@planetmaker>I guess I just learnt a new dorpsgek syntax ;-)
05:27<me84>hrhr :) wasn't sure if this is only a enduser support channel ;)
05:27<me84>well I need informations about the OPenTTD file format
05:27<Noldo>savegames or newgrf files?
05:27<me84>so anything related with scenario files and may be savegames
05:27<me84>ok think I should provide some backgrounds
05:28<@planetmaker>that's the very same thing, just different file extension
05:28<me84>ah ok
05:28<@planetmaker>src/saveload/*
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05:28<me84>there wasn't anything on the wiki that goes deep enough
05:28<me84>where is the map of the city located?
05:28<@planetmaker>it's a chunk-based file format. Chunks change.
05:29<me84>so well it's binary?
05:29<@planetmaker>yes
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05:29<Eddi|zuHause>me84: the file format is RIFF, with some compression applied
05:29<@Terkhen>what are you planning to do?
05:30<me84>RIFF you say? No plan xD
05:30<me84>Well ok some background
05:30<me84>I'm from the www.openstreetmap.org planet thats collecting datas for a free worldmap
05:31<me84>and guess what I want to code an exporter to openTTD :D
05:31<@Terkhen>hmm... that would be nice, yes :)
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05:32<me84>I hope so ;) but to be honest, I'm not a gamer and didn't played TTD yet :)
05:32<@planetmaker>he... Terkhen - that'd integrate in *some* new scenario format possibly :-P
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>me84: what would be more interesting was an extension to the heightmap [image] loading that can encode roads, trees, rivers etc. in the png
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05:32<Eddi|zuHause>me84: you should not try to fiddle with the savegame/scenario file format
05:33<@Terkhen>^ that's what I was going to say, a png format including that info could be interpreted by OpenTTD
05:33<me84>well but that heightmap is what it supposed to be: storing height levels only, right?
05:33<Rubidium>yes
05:33<Rubidium>though... add a bit of metadata to it saying: heh, this is a special case PNG file
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>me84: that's what heightmaps currently are, but interpreting additional data might be useful.
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05:34<Rubidium>and then you have 1 colour channel for height, and 3 remain for other stuff
05:34<me84>ah I see
05:34<Rubidium>not to mention that you can add all kinds of arbitrary (metadata) to a PNG file
05:34<Rubidium>e.g. OpenTTD adds its version and NewGRF settings to the screenshot PNGs
05:34<me84>but this is just an idea or thecurrent state of the art?
05:35<Rubidium>the stuff about the screenshot is current, the rest is an idea
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>me84: current state is heightmap is heights only. the other things are dreams.
05:35<me84>ok so lets forget about that :)
05:36<Rubidium>though my idea sounds like something that might be interesting for 1.2
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>me84: common request is list of town locations, names and (approximate) size
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>this is a use for metadata (or additional text file)
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>me84: the other common request is rivers (or roads, or trees, or other tile-based stuff)
05:37<me84>so how does the generator store the city at the moment? RIFF?
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>this would be a use for other colour channels
05:37<Noldo>Eddi, soon you will have the whole savegame in png metadata
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo: yes, essentially you end up with a (reduced) scenario where you leave some options to the game creation, like adding newgrfs and stuff
05:38<me84>well just one moment folks :)
05:39<me84>so riff is a standart to embed chunks into a single container, right?
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05:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_Interchange_File_Format
05:41<me84>yes still reading the same :)
05:42<me84>so and oTTD has custom chunks? Is that the same like the original TTD? for legacy reasons?
05:43<@Terkhen>the chunk format can change between different OpenTTD versions, but it can load older savegame versions
05:45<me84>so are there any specs?
05:45<@Terkhen>but as Eddi pointed the savegame also stores a lot of stuff that is specific to that game (settings, NewGRF selections), so if you use the existing savegame format you will be creating very specific savegames instead of something generic
05:45<me84>yes alright but I can just use whats already there :)
05:46<@Terkhen>src/saveload/*
05:46<me84>mkay no docs?
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>me84: i really think "enriched" heightmap is the way to go, not exporting a savegame file...
05:47<@Terkhen>no, I don't think the savegame format is intended for external modification, as I said it includes too much information that you won't be able to deal with unless you have all the information the game uses (house position, house state, internal state of the town and so on)
05:48<me84>ok
05:48<me84>damn :(
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05:49<me84>didn't find any strategic 2D game that fits :/
05:50<Wolf01>hello
05:51<me84>Has anybody an idea for a good portable 2D platform game that would benefit from external scenarios?
05:53<@Terkhen>I'm currently working on something to convert a savegame to a "generic" scenario; saving that information would come later but it would probably use a png with additional data
05:53<@Terkhen>(if everything fits, which I'm not sure if it is possible)
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what kind of infrastructure you want to allow. NewObjects would be a bit non-trivial
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'd leave all player-owned structures like rails and stations completely out
05:56<@Terkhen>currently the plan is to start by removing all company owned property, yes
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>industries may be very tricky
05:56<me84>ok, thnks for your informations folks
05:57<@Terkhen>you are welcome me84
05:57<me84>oh and for the great game, of course :)
05:57<me84>cya
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>me84: come back in half a year
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we have a proper system by then ;)
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05:57<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: then it would remove towns, industries and objects storing some info about them, apply the new settings/newgrfs and restore towns, industries and objects
05:58<@Terkhen>for towns this is straightforward, for objects I was told that I could use their object class, and for industries initially it will just create a random one
05:58<@Terkhen>as a method for placing a industry of the "correct" type that works for all NewGRFs is far from trivial
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: might use input/output cargo
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>and pick something random if the cargo doesn't exist
06:00<@Terkhen>we thought about taking into account the industry production flag and the input/output cargo to generate a measurement of how similar two industries are
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06:16<Eddi|zuHause>so... anyone has a bright idea about remote controlling excel from a python script?
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>like telling it to close a file?
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose there is a microsoft equivalent of dbus ;)
06:19<@Terkhen>http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/nokia-developer-news/2011/02/11/letter-to-developers
06:21<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, if you can istantiate an excel workbook, you should be able to control all aspects of it
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i mean, when my python script creates a workbook, and i want to save it, the file may not be open in excel
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: so excel must be told to close it
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: and possibly reload it afterwards
06:26<Wolf01>when you instantiate the workbook, the excel should not open, it does it when you tell excel to create the workbook
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06:27<Wolf01>or you need to show the workbook when you are working on it?
06:28<dihedral>why people engage in the shouters thread, i do not know :-P
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i create a workbook, save it, and open it in excel. later i create an updated workbook, want to save it, and want to automatically close the existing old workbook
06:30<Wolf01>oh, now I understand
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: saving while the workbook is open in excel results in permission denied
06:31<Wolf01>yes, that's right
06:32<Wolf01>you might need to use some hooks to get the excel window which contains your workbook
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06:35<Wolf01>you might need to browse the MDI libraries
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06:44<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: it was already rumored that something like that would happen.
06:44<dihedral>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=929580#p929580 <- yumm
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i guess the only sensible thing to do now for nokia would be to port qt to windows phone 7
06:45<@Terkhen>I guess so, but I wonder if multiplatform support will suffer (as usually happens with anything too attached to windows)
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07:10<@peter1138>load average: 23.21, 27.21, 23.60
07:10<@peter1138>hurrrr
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07:10<DanMacK>Hey all
07:10<@SmatZ>:)
07:11<@SmatZ>hello DanMacK
07:11<@planetmaker>hello DanMacK
07:12<@peter1138>anyone used customvalidators in asp.net?
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07:22<__ln__>http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/nokia-notifies-developers-that-qt-is-out-for-windows-phone-devel/
07:23<@Terkhen>heh
07:24<@SmatZ>one of MS requirements I guess
07:24<@peter1138>doubt it. ms would rather everyone used their own api
07:24<@peter1138>oh
07:25<@SmatZ>:)
07:25<@peter1138>okay... page url and page content don't match
07:25<@SmatZ>indeed
07:25<@peter1138>"out" as in "not happening" rather than "released"
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08:14*andythenorth ponders fences
08:19<@planetmaker>loool. Some people are just a bit too thick: This whole building is offices and a few labs and lecture halls. Some random student just asks a collegue "Excuse me, where please is the office?"
08:19<@planetmaker>when walking into his office...
08:20<@planetmaker>oh my, oh my...
08:20<andythenorth>well, university is for educating people
08:20<andythenorth>maybe some need more education than others
08:20<andythenorth>:D
08:20<andythenorth>doing this in nfo is going to suck
08:20<andythenorth>@calc 4!
08:20<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
08:21<andythenorth>I need 24 action 2s for each tile :o
08:21<@planetmaker>"which office?" - "my tutor's office" - "well, who's your tutor" - "oh, the young blonde one" - "uhm... and the name?" - "uhm... dunno. For physics 101" - "... ... did you check the photo chart down the hall next to the elevator?"
08:21<andythenorth>hmm
08:21<andythenorth>I can discard about half of the options though
08:21<andythenorth>tiles don't need fences on 4 sides in any case
08:23<andythenorth>I need 13 action 2s per tile :o
08:23<andythenorth>and another one for the case of no fences
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>something's wrong... i have to enable caps to write in lower case?!?
08:24<andythenorth>so the Lumber Yard currently has 9 tiles
08:24<andythenorth>@calc 9*14
08:24<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 126
08:24<andythenorth>@calc 126-14
08:24<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 112
08:24<andythenorth>hmm
08:25<andythenorth>I need to define another 112 action 2s to fence the lumber yard :)
08:25<@planetmaker>what about var 7E and using offsets +/-1 ?
08:26<andythenorth>the cement plant also has 9 main tiles
08:26<andythenorth>but then there is animated smoke
08:26<andythenorth>using 7 tiles
08:26<andythenorth>and an animated kiln which will need about 6 tiles
08:26<@planetmaker>btw... did you spend at least *some* thought on your industries' substitute types?
08:27<@planetmaker>or is the utter bullshit?
08:27<andythenorth>in what respect?
08:27<@planetmaker>in the respect as everything maps to coal mine or so
08:27<andythenorth>ah
08:27<andythenorth>foobar wrote that
08:27<@planetmaker>or does it make *some* sense as in farms map to farm etc
08:27<andythenorth>I'm not sure :)
08:27<@planetmaker>uhm... you introduced new industries, didn't you?
08:28<@planetmaker>so you must have done that already
08:28<andythenorth>yeah, but when defining a new type, it's a new type
08:28<@planetmaker>yes, but I mean http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Industries#Substitute_industry_type_08_
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08:31<andythenorth>they're all using IND_NULL
08:31<andythenorth>which maps to...
08:31<andythenorth>coal mine
08:31<andythenorth>I don't suppose it matters
08:31<andythenorth>I wonder what happens if prop 08 is omitted?
08:32<andythenorth>@calc 22*14
08:32<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 308
08:32<andythenorth>hmm
08:32<andythenorth>I will run out of IDs for cement plant action 2s :(
08:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth, it doesn't matter. Now. But let's say: It'd be interesting if they gave a good idea of what type of industry it is :-)
08:32<andythenorth>I'll have to use branching action 2s so I can repeat IDs :(
08:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: explain a bit more?
08:33<@planetmaker>it might open a path to swap an industry set in a meaningful way on scenarios
08:33<andythenorth>I would be very dubious about that
08:34<andythenorth>I can see the purpose, but it would need a different approach
08:34<@planetmaker>The alternative is to throw away the scenario you spent hours designing
08:34<andythenorth>you mean change newgrfs?
08:34<@planetmaker>yes
08:34<andythenorth>nah
08:34<andythenorth>it'll just explode
08:34<andythenorth>there's way too much stored in the tiles
08:34<@planetmaker>No tile information
08:35<@planetmaker>Just replacement type. No more info
08:35<@Terkhen>andythenorth: remove all towns/industries/objects from a existing map, store their locations and some additional info, apply new NewGRFs and recreate the towns/industries/objects
08:35<andythenorth>yeah - that would be the different approach I had in mind
08:35<@planetmaker>but that's not different from what I asked ;-)
08:35<andythenorth>I made certain...assumptions about your approach
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08:36<andythenorth>which may have been mistaken
08:36<andythenorth>I can't think of a reliable way to do this
08:36<andythenorth>there is no single mapping I can think of
08:36<@planetmaker>simplest way: just get industry locations. But maybe the type is interesting. And the only somewhat reliable cross-grf info there is are "cargo similarity" and "replacement type"
08:36<andythenorth>an industry type in one set doesn't map to different types in other sets
08:37<andythenorth>it only maps to equivalent types in other sets
08:37<@planetmaker>there is nor can be a single mapping. But that's irrelevant nor intended
08:37<andythenorth>I would just delete them and reseed the map
08:37<andythenorth>I have an alternative idea
08:37<andythenorth>and I think it's actually workable
08:37<@planetmaker>that's not desirable on a crafted scenario to re-do all work
08:37<andythenorth>store industry seed points in the map
08:37<@planetmaker>it may be, but possibly not always :-)
08:38<@planetmaker>oh, no, it doesn't
08:38<@planetmaker>as each industry set acts differently
08:38<andythenorth>hmm
08:38<@planetmaker>seed = 1 random number. At least within openttd
08:38<@planetmaker>except you mean the location. But that's more primitive than keeping somewhat the type
08:38<andythenorth>I mean the spawn point
08:38<andythenorth>and possibly more information
08:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22058 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp: -Fix (r22050): removing broken orders happened before the "front engine" conversion was done for road vehicles, so road vehicles didn't have orders anymore
08:39<andythenorth>could map across a range of possibilities: cargos; production type
08:39<andythenorth>but industry cb28 stuff would have to be ignored in scenario editor
08:39<andythenorth>it should be anyway IMO, if not already
08:40<andythenorth>it would need a new tile type, and a GUI
08:40<andythenorth>and - this is the horrible part
08:40<@planetmaker>well: my only question was: does FIRS supply useful data on a possible replacement when e.g. FIRS is removed from the game (that's what property 08 is about)
08:40<@planetmaker>It doesn't
08:40<andythenorth>my idea would need a maintained list of all possible cargos in industry sets :(
08:40<andythenorth>planetmaker: no FIRS doesn't ;)
08:40<andythenorth>it couldn't really
08:40<@planetmaker>:-(
08:40<andythenorth>well
08:40<@planetmaker>of course it can
08:40<andythenorth>maybe mappings could be invented
08:41<andythenorth>what does dredging site map to?
08:41<andythenorth>oil rig
08:41<@planetmaker>it will be crude. ^
08:41<@planetmaker>or ore mine
08:41<andythenorth>ore mine on water?
08:41<@Terkhen>the most complicated corner case is the fishing grounds
08:41<@planetmaker>but possibly oil rig :-)
08:41<andythenorth>fishing grounds is oil rig
08:41<@planetmaker>plastic fish
08:41<andythenorth>bear in mind also you would need climate translation
08:42<@planetmaker>uhm... no
08:42<andythenorth>how?
08:42<@planetmaker>all original types are unique
08:42<andythenorth>so action 7 for every FIRS industry prop 08?
08:42<@planetmaker>no. You could use a substitute irrespective of the climate
08:42<andythenorth>how?
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08:43<@planetmaker>by just putting in the number?
08:43<andythenorth>if I map glass works to factory using 06h for prop 08
08:43<andythenorth>and you've got an arctic map
08:43<andythenorth>the industry breaks?
08:43<andythenorth>no
08:43<@planetmaker>it just won't be re-created
08:43<andythenorth>I'm wrong
08:43<andythenorth>hmm
08:43<andythenorth>ok
08:43<@planetmaker>or a temperate factory placed. Use the climate cheat and you can do that even now.
08:44<@planetmaker>So nothing which breaks hard
08:44<andythenorth>so maybe 2/3 of the industries disappear depending on the climate?
08:44<@planetmaker>hardly
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08:44<andythenorth>I can't follow
08:44<@planetmaker>but might happen. So what
08:45<andythenorth>dunno
08:45<@planetmaker>well: many industries are shared across climates
08:45<@planetmaker>so 2/3 is not a good guess ;-)
08:45<andythenorth>not across all three
08:45<@planetmaker>oil rigs
08:45<@planetmaker>refineries
08:46<andythenorth>not coal mine or ore mine
08:46<andythenorth>or steel mill or factory
08:46<andythenorth>or forest
08:46<andythenorth>farm is
08:46<andythenorth>anyway, I wouldn't object to it being changed in FIRS
08:46<andythenorth>it's simply some new defines
08:46<@planetmaker>if that bothers you openttd could internally re-map them to the appropriate climate's equivalent
08:47<@planetmaker>so not really _the_ issue
08:47<andythenorth>there's no point me arguing the case - I won't use it, and I have no objections to it :)
08:47<andythenorth>if you want to do it, feel free ;)
08:47<andythenorth>I'm just arguing for arguing probably
08:47<andythenorth>am I thinking about fences wrong?
08:47<andythenorth>sometimes I get stuck on the hard way
08:48<andythenorth>like with 1 tile buffers
08:48<andythenorth>I tried to patch those for ages, then it was simple nfo
08:49<andythenorth>I don't think coding hundreds of action 2s per industry is worth the effort to have fences show
08:49<@planetmaker>if templated sufficiently?
08:50<andythenorth>could be
08:50<andythenorth>it's already branching for snow and animation, and sometimes ground tile terrain
08:51<andythenorth>I'd be worried about adding another lot of branches
08:53*andythenorth considers a pathological case
08:53<andythenorth>animated, terrain aware, with fences
08:53<andythenorth>@calc 10*3*14
08:53<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 420
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>animations are overrated
08:53<andythenorth>each industry tile might need 420 action 2s
08:53<andythenorth>which could be assembled by cpp
08:53<andythenorth>but still...
08:54<andythenorth>is there a sprite limit per newgrf?
08:54<andythenorth>action 2s , not real sprites
08:55<andythenorth>@calc 9*200*44
08:55<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 79200
08:55<andythenorth>well at least the number of lines of code would be impressive :P
08:56<andythenorth>if there was a callback to draw fences, I would need to add one include per industry
08:57<andythenorth>and it might contain just one advanced varaction 2
08:59<@planetmaker>:-)
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>so... add a callback :)
09:00<andythenorth>I started looking last night
09:00<andythenorth>but I can't see how to append / splice into a newgrf sprite group
09:01*andythenorth experiments a little more
09:21*andythenorth is a bit puzzled
09:22<andythenorth>ti->x and ti->y don't seem to have a consistent origin wrt to the tile
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>wha?
09:23<andythenorth>i.e. if I draw a sprite at ti->x, ti->y, sometimes it's in the centre of the sprite, sometimes left hand corder
09:23<andythenorth>corner /s
09:23<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/puzzling.png
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>the sprite's xrel/yrel?
09:24<andythenorth>the code for that is http://pastebin.com/b2UeBbvV
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really think i know anything about this
09:24<andythenorth>I guess there's something in the bounding box causing this
09:26<andythenorth>i also don't know how to tell the sorter to draw this higher in the layers than the industry
09:26<andythenorth>in a 2D system that would be z index
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that what bounding boxes are supposed to do?
09:27*andythenorth experiments
09:28<andythenorth>the code for viewport is really well documented :D
09:28<@Belugas>hello
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09:30<Eddi|zuHause>i need to buy stuff, but i can't be bothered getting up... :(
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>on a separate note: what is a good program for editing PDFs on linux?
09:34*andythenorth gets a better result for fences
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe you can salvage some drawing code from the railway fences?
09:34<andythenorth>I just did :)
09:37<andythenorth>the next issue is figuring out how to tell the sorter to draw fences above the industry
09:37<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fences_1.png
09:40<andythenorth>I guess I need to use DrawSortableSprite
09:41<andythenorth>which is what I'm currently using
09:41-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
09:42<andythenorth>oops AddSortableSpriteToDraw
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause>something's wrong with snowyness of waypoints
09:55<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/fences_2.png
09:56<andythenorth>^ problem
09:56<andythenorth>:(
09:56-!-Chruker [~no@87-104-39-161-dynamic-customer.profibernet.dk] has joined #openttd
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>bäääh... black-wet-thing-that-makes-miau!!
09:57<@planetmaker>does that ever get wet? I thought they were geniuses in avoiding that...
09:58<andythenorth>hmm
09:58<andythenorth>well at least I learnt how to draw fences in code :)
09:59<andythenorth>and some industries definitely look better with fences
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>compare the waypoints in these two images: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%1939.png and www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Apr%1988.png
09:59<andythenorth>but I can't figure out the sprite sorting
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>bäh
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>compare the waypoints in these two images: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2012.%20Mai%201939.png and www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2028.%20Apr%201988.png
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm... still something wrong
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10:01<Wolf01>call them wp1 and wp2 :P
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>na, it's alright
10:02<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, are they default waypoints?
10:02<@planetmaker>or newgrf'ed
10:02*andythenorth wonders
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, newstations
10:02<@planetmaker>then it most probable is their fault
10:02<@planetmaker>or did that behaviour change?
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well, it worked before. only openttd changed.
10:03<@planetmaker>then it's probably ottd's fault ;-)
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's the same waypoint, once with a 0.7-ish era nightly, and once with a current nightly
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>could be 0.6-ish even
10:07<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: seems you are missing some newgrfs
10:07<@SmatZ>so the behaviour can be quite random
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: what? where?
10:08<@SmatZ>or, no... you added a newgrf :)
10:08<@SmatZ>sac's trees
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>that's a static grf
10:08<@SmatZ>ok
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>i added newbridges, because combroads fails with broken sprite
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>but that has nothing to do with the waypoint
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>[11.02.2011 10:03] <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Jan%201972.sav <-- this is one version of the savegame i previously uploaded
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>need really current trunk to load it ;)
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10:12<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I missed the first link :-) - I see
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and i purposely added a separating word between them, and said it were two. to make it more noticeable that there are two!!
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10:16<@planetmaker>:-)
10:18<V453000>what is a possible cause of an error, that says "22 corrupted files" about by original_windows music set? I stronly doubt that it would be the files, since they work on other computer ... could there be some other "hidden" files or something else? :o
10:19-!-Netsplit resistance.oftc.net <-> larich.oftc.net quits: @Belugas, zodttd, Maarten, FauxFaux, dfox, devilsadvocate, russell_h, murr7y, Mazur
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10:21<@planetmaker>did you make sure that they bear the same name and really are binary the same?
10:21<@Belugas>roarrrr....
10:21<@Belugas>i'm a bear
10:22<V453000>the files come from the same .rar and the binaries are the same :)
10:22<Wolf01>Belugas, no you aren't
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the game uses md5sum to compare the files
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10:26<@Belugas>i'm a bare?
10:26<@Belugas>no, i'm a deer
10:26<@Belugas>a dear?
10:26<@Belugas>i dare!
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>"crazy" is the word you search
10:27<@Belugas>that is punishable by the heaviest penalty!
10:27<@Belugas>but... i guess you are kinda right
10:27<@peter1138>yeah we'll force you to listen to...
10:30<Prof_Frink>Doe, a deer
10:30<@Belugas>to the Bloody Time Zones - Merged Pieces!!
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10:44*dihedral pets the bear
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11:47<Eddi|zuHause>"Hans Reiser wants to sell his story. To raise money for cloning his wife." lmao :p
11:48<supermop>ha
11:48<@Terkhen>:O
11:48<supermop>on a new partition?
11:49<@Terkhen>he's completely mad
11:54<supermop>my hard drive joke fell flat...
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12:19<WargH>Good eaving. I was just wondering about that autorenew feature. Does it only work if I have a depot at the end of a station or if I add an order for my trains to go past a depot?
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12:20<@planetmaker>they would need a reason to visit a depot, yes. That may be in the course of the normal maintenance or could be a forced depot order
12:20<@planetmaker>They won't go to a depot just for autorenew
12:21<@planetmaker>That is: if they don't visit depots regularily... they won't autorenew
12:21<@planetmaker>it also works with "service when needed" and a depot anywhere on the line
12:21<@planetmaker>no need for special constructions
12:22<WargH>Too bad, that doesn't really fit my playstyle. I mostly do stations that are passed through and I have maintenace off.
12:22<WargH>Oh
12:22<@planetmaker>then you have no need to autorenew either
12:22<@planetmaker>as I assume you play without break downs
12:23<@planetmaker>autorenew is a genuine maintenance task, thus if you play without that, you play without autorenew
12:23<WargH>Ah, right. I switched all trains as soon as they got old, ofc I wouldn't have to when I play without breakdowns
12:24<WargH>I didn't really think of that
12:24-!-enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd
12:24<WargH>I'm so far into my game now that half my time was taken up by switching engines.
12:24<andythenorth>efenings
12:25<WargH>Lesson learnt. Thank you
12:25<@planetmaker>you're welcome
12:25<@planetmaker>hello andythenorth
12:26<@planetmaker>WargH: mind that auto_replace_ works in a similar manner - and that might come in handy when playing w/o breakdowns
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12:28*andythenorth ponders various FIRS 'to-dos'
12:28<supermop>red paint
12:28<Rubidium>andythenorth: converting the graphics to the DOS palette?
12:29<andythenorth>ach
12:29<andythenorth>I've been worrying about that
12:29<andythenorth>what's the benefit?
12:29<@planetmaker>more colours
12:29<Rubidium>more logical palette
12:30<andythenorth>does anything break if switching from windows to DOS?
12:30<andythenorth>i.e. do I have to remap any colours?
12:30<Rubidium>if you have custom remaps, then you might need to fix those
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12:32<supermop>is the dos pallette still used outside of people playing on Dos?
12:33<andythenorth>I don't use remaps :)
12:33<Rubidium>supermop: what version of OpenTTD are you using?
12:34<supermop>this is embarassing
12:34<supermop>but i haven't played in months
12:35<Rubidium>in any case, openttd.grf is DOS paletted
12:35-!-enr1x [~kiike@62.57.224.180.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd
12:35<supermop>I guess 1.0.3 something, and an old version of chill patch pack,
12:35<supermop>not at home so cannpt check
12:35<Rubidium>so everyone using a recent OpenTTD with the original graphics (DOS or Windows) uses a DOS paletted GRF
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: technically, the DOS palette is the better one
12:36<supermop>i don't doubt it, having looked at both when i started drawing
12:36<supermop>I just assumed I was not supposed to use it
12:36<andythenorth>me too
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12:37<WargH>Autoreplace presents a problem. If I change manually in a depot I can switch to Asiastar (165mph) but if I try thru the autoreplace the only train avaliable seems to be a train at 110mph
12:38<@planetmaker>WargH: switch to electrical engines ;-)
12:38<@planetmaker>the window somewhere has a button for that
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>[11.02.2011 18:21] <planetmaker> That is: if they don't visit depots regularily... they won't autorenew <-- trains do still go to depot for autoreplace/-renew even if breakdowns and servicing are off. they need to have a depot along their route or a depot order, though.
12:39<@planetmaker>hm, I guess I use it to seldom then :-)
12:39<Wolf01>I think is harder to get that, I found it difficult to upgrade from very low speed tracks to medium speed electric ones because the list changed every time
12:39<WargH>Really Eddi? I tried using it and nothing happened
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>WargH: they don't do it immediately. they only check when the service interval is due
12:40<WargH>Ok, but that's set to 150 days and I waited for two years.
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>WargH: then your depot was probably too far away or something
12:42<WargH>planetmaker: I use the same rail for diesel and electric. And when I choose rail vehicles I can only choose SH 40 110 mph
12:42<WargH>Eddi|zuHause: , I'll try it out now
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12:45<WargH>I'm at year 2079, I used the option that old vehicles dissapear until it was only sh 40 and Asiastar ledt, then I turned it of so I didn't have to have so many engines in the list. Maybe the autoreplace still loses the engine?
12:49<devilsadvocate_>which is the grf which has speed variations in tracks?
12:49<devilsadvocate_>i used to play with it, but i cant seem to find it now
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12:50<WargH>Somthing is wrong with autoreplace at least. I miss a train for Maglev and one for Monorail also.
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>devilsadvocate_: you knoq you can input "tracks" in the search field?
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12:53<devilsadvocate_>Eddi|zuHause: found it. thanks :P
12:54<@planetmaker>WargH: you cannot autoreplace accross different, incompatible rail types.
12:54<@planetmaker>Thus you'll hardly be able to autoreplace rail -> monorail -> maglev
12:54<@planetmaker>Likewise you cannot replace a ship by a ship
12:54<@planetmaker>same thing
12:54<@planetmaker>uhm. A ship by a plane
12:56<WargH>I know that. That wasn't what I was saying. I just noticed that regular rail wasn't the only type missing engines in the menu
12:56<WargH>Eddi|zuHause: It worked
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12:57<Eddi|zuHause>what if i want to replace a hovercraft by an airship? they both have to do with air, so they must be compatible
13:01<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: then you need to install a newgrf with compatible "airtypes" :-P
13:02<andythenorth>I'll do that when I finish roadtypes
13:02<andythenorth>which is maybe never
13:02<andythenorth>as I have 0 commits so far :P
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13:07<WargH>Thank you for your help Eddi|zuHause.
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13:42<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22059 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r21179): Make the send chat message window follow the position of the status bar.
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22060 /trunk/src/lang/ (arabic_egypt.txt hungarian.txt spanish.txt):
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 46 changes by Company_director
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: hungarian - 20 changes by IPG
13:46<CIA-11>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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14:19<andythenorth>I need a tile animation trigger that is called once on construction and once only
14:20<andythenorth>so I can advance animation a random number of frames
14:20<andythenorth>any suggestions?
14:21<andythenorth>I haz cookies
14:21<@planetmaker>callback 21?
14:21<@planetmaker>ho.. industries, not houses ;-)
14:22<andythenorth>I thought I could use construction state change, but I don't think it fires for industries placed at map gen
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14:22<andythenorth>I could put an offset in persistent storage of the industry, then set it to 0 the first time the animation uses it
14:23<andythenorth>that would mean abusing cb14B quite horribly
14:23<andythenorth>and would have complications
14:25<andythenorth>there's already quite a lot of spec for animation control
14:25<andythenorth>I think I'm missing the obvious somewhere :|
14:30<andythenorth>I can use cb26 and maybe write a flag into persistent storage in the industry
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14:33<andythenorth>the documentation of industry tile var 40 is somewhat crappy
14:33<andythenorth>:D
14:34<andythenorth>hmm
14:35<andythenorth>I can't figure out how construction stages work from src
14:35<andythenorth>but I did just learn that default industry smoke uses an effect vehicle :o
14:35<andythenorth>could newgrf industries also use effect vehicles?
14:37*andythenorth is embarrassed to be typing monologue again :P
14:37<@planetmaker>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0IndustryTiles#Special_flags_12_ <-- btw, andythenorth you could just define n identical animation frames
14:37<@planetmaker>Then you don't need to use persistant storage
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14:38<@planetmaker>like check animation stage and use in n-1 cases the same ;-)
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14:40<andythenorth>that's the kind of thing I'm looking for
14:41<@Yexo>andythenorth: what are you trying to achieve? an animation trigger that fires only once can be emulated with cb 26 returning FF (= stop animation)
14:42<andythenorth>I want to stop all the industries smoke being synchronised
14:42<andythenorth>I find it weird
14:42<andythenorth>so I want to offset each industries animation by a random number of frames
14:43<andythenorth>same will apply to, e.g. quarries - if all cranes will operate in sync, will look silly :)
14:43<@Yexo>cb 25 with trigger "construction stage changes", return value: random?
14:43<andythenorth>do construction states change for industries placed by map gen?
14:43<andythenorth>I've read src, but can't tell
14:43<@Yexo>yes
14:43<@Yexo>map gen = same as normal map, first place industries and after that run the tileloop for a while
14:44<@Yexo>oh, construction state is an industry thing, not a tile thing, so not sure
14:44<andythenorth>awesome
14:44<andythenorth>construction stages is industry tiles
14:44<andythenorth>or at least, they have hooks for it
14:44<andythenorth>I guess I try
14:44<andythenorth>if it works, it works
14:46<@Yexo>judging from the code it should work
14:47<andythenorth>one way to find out...
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15:01*andythenorth considers FIRS industry sound effects
15:02<andythenorth>opinions?
15:05<@Yexo>lots of work, it'll be hard to find people to provide the sounds, unless you plan on creating / searching for them yourself
15:10<@planetmaker>andythenorth: save it for the given reasons for >1.0
15:10<@Belugas>i can provide sounds!
15:10<@planetmaker>it's been a big pain to gather a whole set of sounds for OpenSFX
15:10<@Belugas>weird ones!
15:11<@planetmaker>well... ^ we'll take you by the word
15:11<@Belugas>my wife said i'm doing too much noise
15:11<@planetmaker>:-(
15:11<@planetmaker>same or other incident?
15:12<@Belugas>as soon as i pick my guitar :)
15:12<@Belugas>including THAT incident ;)
15:12<@planetmaker>:-P
15:14<@Belugas>honestly, i don't care :)
15:14<@Belugas>i know i'll have my studio in the basement
15:15<@Belugas>so... just a matter of waiting ;)
15:15<@Belugas>but hey... my son likes my noises ;)
15:15<@planetmaker>:-) How's your basement doing?
15:15<@Belugas>currently, i'm still removing the last walls, preparing the electricity and stuff like that
15:16<@Belugas>i've not yet started to make the floor
15:16<andythenorth>I don't mind gathering sounds for FIRS
15:16<andythenorth>but I wonder if it's worth it
15:16<@Belugas>i hope i'llbe done with the floor for Easter
15:16<andythenorth>I play with sound off :P
15:16<andythenorth>mostly due to annoying crossing bells :D
15:16<@Belugas>andythenorth, then don't :)
15:17<andythenorth>ha ok
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15:55<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22061 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Change: when loading old savegames with long trains set the maximum train length to the length of the longest train
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16:14<andythenorth>why are presets considered to be the solution to 'too many settings'
16:15*andythenorth rants at fricking stupidity
16:19<DanMacK>Two constants in the universe...
16:20<Rubidium>andythenorth: because n settings is too much, you just simplify it by adding one setting with 2**n (or more) possibilities
16:20<Wolf01>one is 42, the other is stupidity?
16:20<andythenorth>yeah
16:23<andythenorth>Rubidium: give me commit rights, I'll delete n/2 settings, and players can blame me :P
16:23<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: What are you, a GNOME dev?
16:25<@Terkhen>that's a good idea, we could start adding (patch by andythenorth) to unpopular commits
16:26<@planetmaker>:-D
16:26*planetmaker likes that idea
16:27<andythenorth>or - just say 'sorry, there was an unretrievable problem with svn, and some stuff is lost for ever'
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16:30<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22062 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: memory leak when saving fails mid-way
16:33<@Terkhen>:D
16:33<andythenorth>Rubidium: xml does seem sane
16:33<andythenorth>for prefs
16:34<andythenorth>it's just easy enough for users to edit it and feel l33t
16:34<andythenorth>when OS X was released, there were lots of tip sites about editing prefs to 'unlock hidden features'
16:34<andythenorth>there's even an app for it :P http://www.bresink.com/osx/TinkerTool.html
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16:47*andythenorth does puzzle about random bits
16:52<andythenorth>I need a range of ~7 from the random bits in cb25
16:52<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Animation_control_1B_25_140_152_159_
16:52<andythenorth>what mask do I set?
16:52<Rubidium>7 (give you 0..7)
16:52<andythenorth>oh
16:52<andythenorth>how simple
16:52<andythenorth>I thought there was more to it than that
16:53<andythenorth>someone told me they had to be powers of two or something
16:53<Rubidium>nah, if you said 8 or 6 I would still have said 7 though
16:54<@Yexo>andythenorth: the values have to be "power of two minus one". 7 is a valid mask because 8 is a power of 2. It'll give you 8 values (0..7)
16:55*andythenorth saves that info locally :D
16:55<andythenorth>anyway, smoke now looks way better
16:55*andythenorth is pleased and sends cookies
16:59<Rubidium>though can you beat wallyweb's cookies?
17:00<andythenorth>dunno
17:01<andythenorth>mine are smoked :P
17:03<Rubidium>smoked cookies? Never heard of them
17:04<Rubidium>only "smoked ... cookies" I can find are "smoked bacon cookies"
17:04<DanMacK>They're bacon flavoured
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17:08<@Terkhen>:D
17:10<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22063 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Change: make the "has network" check also check whether the client is actually fully connected
17:22<andythenorth>what happens if cb25 tries to advance to a frame > num of animation frames ?
17:22<andythenorth>does it wrap? or explode?
17:23<@Yexo>there is no such thing as "num of animation frames"
17:24<@Yexo>instead your varaction2 checks the current animation frame and choses the appropriate action2
17:24<andythenorth>so it will use varaction 2 default
17:24<@Yexo>if cb25 returns a frame that is not handle by your varaction2 check it'll just use the default, whatever that is
17:24<andythenorth>makes sense
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17:25<andythenorth>thanks
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17:42<Nite>Hi
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17:42<Nite>whats the theoretical limit number of orders for a singel vehicle?
17:43<Nite>(not a fan of autoremoove :/ )
17:44<@planetmaker>255
17:45<@planetmaker>last time I checked - and there I actually hit it ;-)
17:45<@planetmaker>so it's a quite practical limit :-P
17:46<Nite>oh ... thats not too much for sick (pax) systems spannign a whole map
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17:46<@planetmaker>yep, that's where I hit it ;-)
17:47<Nite>if u have 4 stations a town that would be "only" 64 towns ... 63 ... braaag
17:48<Nite>was it a RV game you hit the 255?
17:48<@planetmaker>it were ICE trains with self-regulating orders
17:49<Nite>self-regulating meaning?
17:49<@planetmaker>which distributed themselves to the routes according to demand
17:49<@planetmaker>lots of conditional orders
17:49<Nite>use of condi orders?
17:49<Nite>ok ok
17:50<@planetmaker>actually it were Shinkansen, but yes ;-)
17:50<Nite>... but 255 :-o
17:51<Nite>mostly depends on map size & # of towns
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18:00<Nite>can i see the nomber of towns a map holds somehow ingame?
18:00<Nite>o = u
18:03<@Terkhen>good night
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18:06<Wolf01>any php guru here?
18:09<guru3>maybe
18:09<guru3>what you need Wolf01?
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18:13<__ln__>he needs python
18:13*andythenorth needs sleep
18:17<andythenorth>good night
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18:20<nicfer>is there any rail/road network building server?
18:20<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22064 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp saveload/saveload.cpp): -Fix [FS#4497] (r21399): crash when disconnecting and reconnecting while the server is still saving the savegame
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18:27<Nite>erent all serveers rail/road network servers
18:27<Nite>i mean ottd is a rail/road network game
18:29-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:29<nicfer>I mean ones with big pax networks
18:29<Nite>ha ... get hold of teh publiccoop server at themoment
18:29<Nite>thats too big
18:29<nicfer>not scattered all around the map
18:30<Nite>what u want might be a connect everything game or the like ...
18:31<nicfer>openttdcoop is too much exigent about hubs and such stuff
18:31<Nite>yeah its extreme
18:31<Nite>i jsut go there too :-o :-o :-o
18:32<nicfer>I'm thinking about a lighter version
18:32<Nite>i need my own dedi server i guess
18:33<Nite>i personally like alftons servers the most atm, and jens1 snorres
18:34<Nite>you can have nice pax games on temperate and arctic there althought they have few towns
18:39<nicfer>also, I want to learn to use timetable
18:39<nicfer>timetables*
18:40<Nite>*hiccups* oh no timetables
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18:41<Nite>i guess i have to use them different or continue to use them not at all
18:42<nicfer>so my trains reach stations more regularly
18:42<Nite>when the game (cities) get bigger you will not need timetables but just take as much as u can
18:43<Nite>and for industry i use fulload in most cases
18:43<nicfer>which are the alftons servers?
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18:44<Nite>openttd.alfton.no (version 1.0.5)
18:45<Nite>but it is very industry (ECS) oriented
18:46<Nite>iam on the tropic one atm
18:50<nicfer>speaking of trains, would be cool a new cargo function, that loads cargo until another train approaches the station
18:52<Nite>isnt that too much automating?
18:52<nicfer>it's more useful, it's annonying to do it manually
18:52<Nite>i mean balancing is what you try to archeive with sophisticated systems
18:53<Nite>would it not be like tetris always placing you the pieces in the right place - because its annoying to do it manually?
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18:54<nicfer>activating full load and when another train comes in, you tell the one in the station to leave
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18:54<Nite>yes but it is one clue of the gaem to archeive this with correct trianlenght and good tracks not to automate everything ...
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18:56<Nite>but .. half load (or %age laod) would be nice, althought you can archeive that kind of with condi orders
18:57<nicfer>isn't the game about building, and less about thinking?
18:58<Nite>its true you mostly set your own goals in ottd
18:58<Nite>but ottd is much about thinking/planing for sure
18:59<nicfer>in my current game, my trains are too much together to each other
18:59<nicfer>there's like three near one station and none near the others
19:00<Nite>well use longer sections (meaning between signals)
19:01<Nite>are u on a server atm?
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19:03<Nite>nicfer ?
19:04<nicfer>I had one train 7 tiles long and the others like 3
19:05-!-Chruker [~no@87-104-39-161-dynamic-customer.profibernet.dk] has quit []
19:05<nicfer>dunno if that was the problem
19:07<Nite>so you are not in an MP game atm?
19:07<Nite>earlier planetmaker talked about "autobalancing" ...
19:08<Nite>-> "?" <-
19:08<nicfer>yes, I'm on one
19:08<nicfer>forgot the name
19:08<Nite>ch
19:08<Nite>look it up
19:11<nicfer>hanno's quest & goal
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19:21<TruePikachu>On the town list, there should really be a way to filter cities in or out
19:22<Nite>or show the number of towns in total ;)
19:23<Nite>by what you wanted them to be filtered?
19:23<Nite>there is size and name already
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19:26<TruePikachu>Well, cities for sure, maybe also dimensions?
19:27<TruePikachu>Or size - total # of tiles that the LA takes control of
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19:29<TruePikachu>Also the world map fails at signs - maybe in the same text as town names?
19:30<Nite>well: the sign list is very helpfull to find places
19:31<TruePikachu>Finding a place is not the same as comparing locations at a glance
19:31<TruePikachu>Especially with respect to the map
19:31<TruePikachu>* where on the map
19:32<Nite>try the compass icon
19:32<Nite>i notice
19:33<Nite>if we all agree that "north" is upper left edge on the map then why does the compass icon show upperright ? ;p
19:34<TruePikachu>^^ True
19:34<TruePikachu>Apparently Chris Sawyer never played RRT2 ;)
19:34<TruePikachu>That's why I use |\ as N
19:35<TruePikachu>But, well, I'm starting a game up, and I marked the cities with signs
19:36<TruePikachu>Hmmm...is there a coordinate display?
19:36<TruePikachu>If so, I'll just SVG a map up
19:36<Nite>also when i build statoins around a town in right angle to the center the *****north station is upper right - west upper left
19:37<TruePikachu>Hmmm...a "North direction" option?
19:37<Nite>is upper left is north a false myth ? or is station names completely random?
19:38<TruePikachu>There is a theme with NSEW for the station name
19:38*TruePikachu also thought there was some sort of compass thing
19:38<Nite>theme?
19:38<TruePikachu>Err...pattern
19:39-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:39<TruePikachu>Diagram:
19:39<TruePikachu>W N
19:39<TruePikachu> X
19:39<Nite>all towns i surround by busstaions lead to same notht upper RIGHT west upper left
19:39<TruePikachu>S E
19:39<TruePikachu>$^%&@#$
19:40-!-nicfer [ba3b9419@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
19:40<TruePikachu>W N
19:40<TruePikachu> X
19:40<TruePikachu>S E
19:40<Wolf01>combobreaker
19:40<TruePikachu>lol
19:40<Wolf01>too late :D
19:41<Nite>for me it is W N
19:41<Nite>then E S
19:41<Nite>is it fooling me ?
19:41<TruePikachu>Yes, because everyone knows that penguins live at the South Pool (i.e. Japan)
19:41<TruePikachu>*pole
19:42<TruePikachu>*no
19:42<Nite>honestly i do not get "east" at all
19:43<TruePikachu>What is the town name?
19:43<Nite>i trie it on many towns in singleplayer atm
19:44<Wolf01>station naming should be revisited imho, names like "central" "transfer" etc should be based on distance from the city center, NWSE should be based in the right direction based on the city center, and composite names might get a chance, like "fartburg suburbs east"
19:44*TruePikachu thinks someone should see how those suffexes are generated
19:44<TruePikachu>Via source
19:44*TruePikachu is busy with a game right now, tho
19:45*Wolf01 is busy on get to the bed
19:45<Nite>you know what i conclude quickly
19:45<TruePikachu>There should also be an option to let the player choose which way North is via advanced options
19:46<Nite>north is the upper corner not some edge
19:46<TruePikachu>Upper-left, upper-right, or upper-center
19:46<Wolf01>devs are removing advanced options and you want to introduce a new one?
19:46<Wolf01>*other devs
19:46<TruePikachu>Lol, maybe a secret option
19:46<TruePikachu>SET north left
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19:46<TruePikachu>* sets North to upper-left
19:46<Wolf01>#define true = false
19:47<Nite>because the n e s w works when i place stations that way its correct
19:47<TruePikachu>Hmmm...think these would be nice for 1.1.0? Better station naming?
19:47<TruePikachu>Nah...
19:48<TruePikachu>1.1.1
19:48<Nite>could i t be that ther is an "X" with the center at the towns center tile
19:48<TruePikachu>In my diagrams, yes
19:48<TruePikachu>Oh, on the map?
19:49<TruePikachu>Not needed - it is always a road tile just below the callout
19:49<TruePikachu>*game map i.e. where you click to do everything
19:49<Nite>not on the map
19:49<TruePikachu>Where?
19:49<Nite> N
19:50<Nite>W X E
19:50<Nite> S
19:50<TruePikachu> N
19:50<TruePikachu>???
19:50<Nite>\ N /
19:50*TruePikachu fails
19:50<Nite>W X E
19:51<Nite>cannot show it here
19:51<TruePikachu>Ummm...rafb.me
19:51<TruePikachu>^ Hosted by a calc programmer, just like old rafb.paste
19:51<Nite>rafb?
19:51<Wolf01>\ N /
19:51<Wolf01>W X E
19:51<Wolf01>/ S \
19:51<TruePikachu>Pastebin
19:52<Nite>exactly
19:52<TruePikachu>A down-and-dirty one
19:52<Nite>wolf01
19:52<Wolf01>magic of CTRL
19:52<TruePikachu>l
19:52<Wolf01>(and alt+enter)
19:52*TruePikachu has no Ctrl-enter
19:52<TruePikachu>l
19:52<TruePikachu>Nor alt :(
19:52<TruePikachu>Or shift
19:52<Nite>i couldnt send it beginning with "/"
19:52<Wolf01>don't use phones to chat here
19:53<TruePikachu><SPACE>/
19:53<Wolf01>ctrl+enter does the trick
19:53<Wolf01>like /quit
19:53<TruePikachu>Not on irssi
19:53<Nite>anyway wold01 got what i mean
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>/quit
19:53<Nite>and it works for every town so far
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19:54*TruePikachu likes how useful Inkscape can be
19:54<TruePikachu>Especially with how it is finally working on this box
19:55<TruePikachu>It wanted blahblahblah.so.1, I had .so.3
19:55<Wolf01>W x E
19:55<Wolf01>\ /
19:55<Wolf01> \S/
19:55<Wolf01>^^^ I usually intend the map like this
19:55<Wolf01>missed 2 lines
19:55<TruePikachu>lol
19:55*TruePikachu wonders if antiflod will kick in
19:55<TruePikachu>*flood
19:56<TruePikachu>Oooo...just got idea for irssi
19:56<Wolf01>(forgot to use ctrl this time ;))
19:57<Wolf01>ok, time to go to bed
19:57<Wolf01>'night all
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19:58<TruePikachu> 6 lines, permission to Xmit?
19:58<TruePikachu>Should be <1sec
19:59<TruePikachu>My idea for maps to be arranged:
19:59<TruePikachu> ^
19:59<TruePikachu>NE
19:59<TruePikachu><-*->
19:59<TruePikachu>WS
19:59<TruePikachu> v
19:59<TruePikachu>Lol @ external keyboard buffer
20:00<Nite>häääää?
20:00<Nite>anyone on a server right now?
20:01<TruePikachu>^^ I can't read ASCII outside of 0x20 and 0x7F, fyi
20:01<TruePikachu>Stupid console character set...
20:01<TruePikachu>Only way to OTTD and IRC at same time for me, though
20:02<TruePikachu>vim
20:02*TruePikachu forgot to ^A^C
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20:04<Nite>there is an inventin called "screen" where you can arrange squares called windows to show you different content like ottd & irc at the same time
20:04<Nite>+ o
20:04<TruePikachu>I know
20:05<TruePikachu>I'm not using split screen
20:05<Nite>also called "monitor" btw
20:05*TruePikachu is using GNU SCREEN
20:05<Maarten>And something like quassel, which allows you to have graphical IRC chat, connected to a core elsewhere, more or less similar like irssii and screen. Time to drag that 20th century console chat to the 21st century my friend :)
20:05<TruePikachu>^A^C creates a new virtual console
20:05<TruePikachu>And I can't use a graphical chat right now, as I prefer fullscreen OTTD
20:05<Maarten>ah
20:06<Maarten>that is where 2 monitors come in :)
20:06*TruePikachu has no free PCI slots, and only a half-height AGP
20:06<Nite>i dont even know how to activate fullscreen in ottd
20:06<Nite>and when i treid it never worked
20:06<TruePikachu>Ummm...some option
20:07<Maarten>1920x1080 on monitor 1, great for OpenTTD, and 1280x1024 on the second, good enough for chat, websites, and other stuff I'd like to have active during OpenTTD.
20:07<Nite>"fullscreen mode failed"
20:07*TruePikachu has no capability to add another monitor to this computer
20:07<Nite>is all i get, why like this?
20:08<TruePikachu>What OS and display specs?
20:09<Nite>wayhey! it works - just had to select NOTotherresolution
20:10<TruePikachu>^^ Well there's your problem!
20:10<Nite>even in glorioan 640x480 ! this shocks me!
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20:13<supermop>hello
20:13*TruePikachu imagines running irssi in the console
20:13<TruePikachu>i.e. the [`] console
20:15<Nite>the "^" here
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20:35*TruePikachu printed the map backwards
20:37<TruePikachu>Oh well, just a general guide
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 12 00:00:27 2011