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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-12

---Logopened Sat Feb 12 00:00:27 2011
---Daychanged Sat Feb 12 2011
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00:40<xiong>Is there truly no hotkey for the query (?) tool? Or have I only been unable to find it?
00:42<Eddi|zuHause>have you tried things like Ctrl+F12?
00:43<Eddi|zuHause>argh, right. i know the flaw in this thought :p
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01:32<@Yexo>xiong: there is a hotkey for that, but it only works in the scenario editor
01:32<@Yexo>see train_list under [scenedit_maintoolbar] in hotkeys.cfg
01:33<@Yexo>yes, that name is a bug, if anyone is looking for something easy to fix there you have it
01:36<xiong>Yexo, It would be useful to have a hotkey in play. "/' would be a good choice. Even better would be a small x,y,z readout right under the cursor.
01:36<xiong>Surveying would go so very much more quickly if one didn't need to click a button.
01:36<@Yexo>feel free to create a small patch to have a hotkey for it ingame too, I agree it would be useful
01:38<xiong>I'm the fellow who had trouble coding a town name GRF. I know nothing at all about the main codebase or even the language in which it's written. I'm not a software professional; I'm a graphic artist, among other things.
01:38<xiong>At best, I dabble in Perl.
01:40<xiong>I don't know why people are always urging me to write or patch this or that. I have no deep computer software skills. I consider it a good day when I manage to install a new piece of software without causing a crash.
01:46<@Yexo>you don't have to code it, somebody else might
01:46<@Yexo>I was merely agreeing with you that such a hotkey would be useful and that I'd certainly include it if someone wrote a patch
01:46<@Yexo>as right now I don't have the patience to do that
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02:14<@Yexo>what a mess is the wiki
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02:33<Rubidium>Yexo: but translating the ancient stuff is so much better. That doesn't change anymore, so much less maintainance
02:34<@Yexo>hmm, who knew was the page with the 3rd most page views (after main page and manual)?
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02:40<@planetmaker>the definition of "full set" seems to be interesting.
02:40<@planetmaker>probably full set = random newgrf
02:41*planetmaker ponders to re-write that page
02:46*planetmaker starts to cleanup
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03:14<Nite>full is if the artist says so!
03:15<Eddi|zuHause>i have my doubt any artist ever touched that wiki page
03:15<Nite>could be right (cbr?)
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03:44<dihedral>good morning
03:45<@Terkhen>good morning
03:50<dihedral>oh - btw :-P
03:50<dihedral>what happend to the spanish guy?
03:52<@Terkhen>which one?
03:55<@Terkhen>oh right, sorry, I'm not very smart in the mornings :)
03:55<@Terkhen>he said he would install IRC and pay us a visit here
04:00<dihedral>interesting - i did not know there were that many people who do not use IRC but play OpenTTD :-P
04:04<dihedral>licensing question: i have a java project which used snippets from OpenTTD's network code - that probably means my licensing questions are answered? or is the amount of code i used form OpenTTD compared to the amount of code i have written myself relevant?
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04:06<Eddi|zuHause>the ratio itself is not relevant. relevant is the question whether it is a "significant amount of creativity"
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>neither quality nor quantity is of relevance
04:07<dihedral>hello Wolf01
04:07<dihedral>and who judges that "significant amount of creativity"?
04:08<Eddi|zuHause>"(3) Computerprogramme werden geschützt, wenn sie individuelle Werke in dem Sinne darstellen, daß sie das Ergebnis der eigenen geistigen Schöpfung ihres Urhebers sind. Zur Bestimmung ihrer Schutzfähigkeit sind keine anderen Kriterien, insbesondere nicht qualitative oder ästhetische, anzuwenden."
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04:09<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: anything that is not copy-pasting the tutorial.
04:09<dihedral>that would then probably include packet.cpp :-D
04:12<dihedral>ah - i thought i had made a mistake in my licensing - by putting my projects under gpl v2 or any later version
04:12<dihedral>but they are under gpl v2 only
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04:17<Wolf01>so if I make another game, maybe written from scratch, with different graphics, but based on the same gameplay of an existent game, my one cannot be protected because not "original"?
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: no, "ideas" are not copyright-able
04:18<Wolf01>not in EU
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: as long as you don't copy any actual code or design documents, you are not violating copyright
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: for "ideas", there are patents.
04:20<Wolf01>but what you reported says that a program must be an "original creation" of the author, if it's based on another existent idea it's not original
04:21<Wolf01>or I misunderstant the concept of originality
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>you misunderstand it. this is about the implementation, not the idea
04:22<Wolf01>ah, ok, brb -> breakfast
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04:27<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: of course, with such an isolated piece of code like the network code you probably have a fairly limited amount of authors which you can ask to release it under a different license
04:28<dihedral>well i can still release a library under gpl v2 which does the network part, and release the rest of the bot under another lisence
04:28<dihedral>or multiple licenses
04:29<dihedral>and seeing as i am then using an api rather than the code snippets - it should be fine
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>that may be possible, too.
04:30<dihedral>as far as i have understood it, i could even use gpl v2 for the network stuff (project joan) and v3 for the bot (project grapes) and have each other plugin be under another license yet
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>afair the GPL only requires you to provide source code for the "linked to" libraries, they don't have to be gpl'ed
04:30<Eddi|zuHause>but, IANAL
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05:17<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Wolf01: GPL is a bit stricter than that: It requires that any redistribution of the work, or derived works are distributed under GPL as well
05:17<Wolf01>that was clear
05:18<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Wolf01: There is no special treatment for libraries in the license, so there is some debate whether linking to a library creates a "derived work"
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05:22<blathijs>Wolf01: But mostly there is no "only requires you to provide source code" part in GPL, as Eddi|zuHause commented, it always requires distributing derived works under the complete GPL
05:22<blathijs>there is the concept of being "GPL compatible", but I think that only means that a license is open enough to allow relicensing the work under GPL...
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: it all gets a bit fuzzy when "sparate parts" get involved
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05:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: I have been thinking about FIRS supplies behaviour
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05:37<andythenorth>if I can figure out how to cleanly decouple the amount needed from strings etc
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05:43<andythenorth>the amounts could be user configurable
05:43<andythenorth>or they could adjust with production
05:43<andythenorth>or maybe both
05:46<__ln__>11:18 < Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: as long as you don't copy any actual code or design documents, you are not violating copyright <--- however this doesn't mean that drawing the same artwork by hand and making a program an exact copy of the original does not remove the original copyright. even if nothing is directly copied in the technical sense.
05:47<Wolf01>"does not remove" from the original, but the copy it should be relicensed
05:47<andythenorth>FIRS supplies is more of a headache than I thought
05:48<andythenorth>it's coupled tightly to economies
05:48<andythenorth>or will be
05:48<andythenorth>this is bad :(
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: even if it is possible that two persons write exactly the same program, they will find it very hard to prove that they didn't actually copy anything
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: "copying" includes more than just digital copies here
05:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you mean the farm / eng. / manufacturing supplies?
05:56<@planetmaker>nah, keep them... And at most add a switch to completely kick them - but that might be an economy
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05:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: I think it's an economy
05:58<andythenorth>I wanted to consider the suggestions from V453000
05:58<andythenorth>about changing the supply behaviour to require progressive amounts
05:58<andythenorth>but I think that would need to be a parameter options ('simple / complex')
05:59<andythenorth>and then that parameter would conflict with turning off supplies altogether :(
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06:07*andythenorth parks that question for now :P
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06:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: got time to look at the Serbian translation quickly?
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06:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the supply could IMHO be like V suggests by default. But well, could be a parameter, too and does not collide with 'no supplies' really
06:11<@planetmaker>What about the serbian translation?
06:12<@planetmaker>you mean I should try to add it?
06:12<andythenorth>I'm not sure if it's valid, or if it will over-write changes you made yesterday
06:12<andythenorth>I did a test, it compiles ok
06:12<andythenorth>but I don't want to undo your work ;)
06:13<@planetmaker>got the ticket #?
06:13<@planetmaker>I guess it still has many strings which must go
06:13<andythenorth>it seems that swapping cargo properties 0B and 0C for 1B and 1C is savegame safe
06:14<andythenorth>I am surprised by that :o
06:14<@planetmaker>that's only strings IIRC?
06:14<@planetmaker>that's not stored anywhere
06:15<@planetmaker>except in the newgrf
06:15<andythenorth>I guess I am used to tile based things
06:15<andythenorth>removing action 0 props in a tile is often bad
06:16<andythenorth>looks like FIRS 0.6.1 should be 0.6 savegame safe :)
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>dear cat. how often do i have to tell you that this is MY chair?
06:17<andythenorth>tell it with electricity
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'm occasionally getting electrostatically charged while petting the cats
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06:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I treated the serbian translation such that it does not contain (anymore) any unused ones. Shall I commit?
06:21<andythenorth>yes please
06:21<andythenorth>I am looking for any other small tickets for 0.6.1
06:21<andythenorth>otherwise it is done and ready :)
06:21<@planetmaker>Well, Terkhen might want to update the Spanish translation
06:23<@planetmaker>The cargoamount strings are untranslated
06:23<andythenorth>might be odd
06:23<@planetmaker>they're new
06:24<andythenorth>will it default to 7F
06:24<andythenorth>no disaster then
06:25<fjb>Hm, most efficient airport is the communter?
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06:25<@planetmaker>the 2nd biggest iirc, international
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: depends on your definition of efficiency
06:27<fjb>2nd biggest can handle more cargo (partly because itcan handle bogger planes), but the long runways cause long taxy ways for smaller airplanes.
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06:29<fjb>A tooltip telling me what airport would be accepted at a tile would be really nice.
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06:31<fjb>The problem of the biggest airport are the even longer taxy ways?
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06:43<@planetmaker>fjb: rather the state machine
06:43<@planetmaker>feel free to supply a patch which increases the intercontinental's effectiveness (if that's possible, might also be related to its layout)
06:44<fjb>I looked at it and the layout is not optimal.
06:44<@planetmaker>it needs NewAirports ;-)
06:45*andythenorth does ponder this idea:
06:45<fjb>Looking at realworld airports would show how to solve the problem.
06:45<@planetmaker>better runway offset... yeah
06:45<fjb>What happened to NewAirports? Death caused by bitrot?
06:46<@planetmaker>Well... not dead, but sleeping
06:46<@planetmaker>But nobody uses so far what is already possible: provide rotations for the existing airports
06:47<@planetmaker>Nobody can be bothered to even supply the (few) needed sprites for that despite a standing offer to have them coded
06:47<fjb>Too bad. Especially nie small airports looked possible.
06:47<@planetmaker>Both definitely is not helping in the motivation to get the full-fledged NewAirports finished, I'd bet
06:48<@planetmaker>despite it being anything but trivial
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: conceptual difficulties that need a change in specification
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>fjb: and nobody dares to tackle that
06:49<@planetmaker>iirc yexo has an idea or concept how to do that.
06:49<fjb>Hm, should not be that difficult to break down the OpenGFX airports an make single tiles from them.
06:49<@planetmaker>fjb: quite not. You'd have only to supply the buildings in the other 3 rotations
06:49<@planetmaker>the hangar exists
06:50<@planetmaker>at least the modern one
06:50<andythenorth>what sprites are needed for new airports?
06:50<@planetmaker>runways... could be rotated simply
06:50<andythenorth>I have an entirely different motivation to see it done
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: shouldn't flipping suffice for the other buildings?
06:50<fjb>So it is mirroring an then repainting to adjust the sunshine.
06:50<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: not for 2x1 or 3x1 buidling rows. and light
06:51<@planetmaker>and the backside... should it look the same?
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: does that really matter?
06:51<fjb>It would be a starting point.
06:51<@planetmaker>for a concept-study: no
06:51<@planetmaker>for a nice newgrf: yes
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06:52<fjb>Nice newgrfs tend to come when the game mechanics are in place and working.
06:52<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it needs mostly the buildings in the other three rotations
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>i have the fear that OpenGFX will be stuck at it's (fairly low) level of quality, and doesn't improve over time
06:53<@planetmaker>interest to change things is pretty low. Most people want to change vehicles. I'd like less noisy houses most urgently
06:53<fjb>But it is more difficult to make a nice looking airport newgrf when the game engine does not support it for testing.
06:53<@planetmaker>The airports are not bad IMHO
06:54<fjb>Import swedish houses. :)
06:54<@planetmaker>Well. One could... But not sure it makes sense
06:55<@planetmaker>I still toy the idea to import the shanghai maglev
06:55<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: at least OpenGFX has seen improvement since it was a full set; OpenSFX is more dead than OpenGFX
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: when looking at screenshots, the tracks look the worst
06:55<@planetmaker>tracks look worse?
06:55<@planetmaker>should I update to SER tracks?
06:55<@planetmaker>or a nutracks version?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>nutracks looks more like concept art ;)
06:56<Ammler>mäh, worst is using other newgrf sprites for opengfx
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06:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really know how SER looks like
06:56<Ammler>those are "better" yarrs
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06:57<DanMacK>Hey all
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>isn't YARRS only recoloured default rails?
06:57<@planetmaker>Ammler: why is it bad to use newgrf sprites for opengfx?
06:57<Ammler>and ser has awesome snow support
06:58<Ammler>because you can use teh newgrf to get those sprites
06:58<fjb>Moin DanMacK
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>anyways, i don't see myself using opengfx in the near future
07:01<dihedral>Rubidium, can a notification in the admin network for setting changes make sense?
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm... in the last few weeks i have heard almost a dozen different pronunciations of "Sanaa"
07:01<dihedral>i.e. if someone changes the server password - it would be nice if connected bots could pick up on that
07:05<@planetmaker>in any case, opengfx could use another person who also actually codes the set...
07:05<@planetmaker>it used to be a big number of people who were all excited about it and contributing... but that dwindled to very few. Sadly
07:06<@planetmaker>Though there's somewhat a steady stream of new sprites and quite some waiting :-)
07:06<@planetmaker>which again boils down to "2nd person actually coding on it" would also be nice
07:07*fjb sings: "You can't hurry sprites, you just have to wait..."
07:08<@planetmaker>Well... I wonder though if maybe the arctic stuff could re-use swedish houses. In order to really differenciate climates
07:08<Ammler>3 open tickets for next release and not really something of those are codeable
07:09<@planetmaker>Ammler: there are lot of code reviews with sprites
07:09<@planetmaker>just without assigned version
07:10<@planetmaker>looking at the feedback in the forum, I'm a bit hesitant currently on continuing with the planes. There are good arguments for both.
07:10<@planetmaker>My personal preference would be all those planes more scaled down. The 747 is too big for my personal taste.
07:11<@planetmaker>also, completely other issue: the shores need re-drawing. All of them except toyland
07:11*DanMacK can definitely scale down the 747, the others should be OK
07:12<@planetmaker>:-) I just wonder then about the relative scale - though that might not matter really
07:13*DanMacK thinks that using 1CC parts of a newgrf is not a bad thing for OpenGFX - If the parts are realistic, why not use them?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>damn, i can't listen to radio anymore.
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>i always want to skip bad songs
07:15<Ammler>planetmaker: any ticket about the shores, don't get the reason there
07:16<@planetmaker> <-- reason (ticket 2137)
07:16<Ammler>I would make smaller shorts like those from ttd and use the current opengfx shores for ogfx+water :-)
07:17<@planetmaker>and yes, the only conclusion can be to reduce the amount of sand
07:17<@planetmaker>at least somewhat
07:18<Ammler>hmm, doesn't frosch have a patch for that?
07:19<andythenorth>that shores ticket is literally the definition of a corner case
07:19<andythenorth>I'd be ignoring it :P
07:21<@planetmaker>it's a valid ticket, though
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>"corner case" is good ;)
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07:28<[twisti]>is there a way to set the game to not have stuff get worse over time ?
07:29<[twisti]>you know like new trains are good but after some time they get less good
07:29<@planetmaker>disable breakdowns?
07:29<[twisti]>id like to leave the game just running in the background but i dont want everything to be all crappy
07:29<[twisti]>its not just breakdowns though
07:29<@planetmaker>what else can fail?
07:29<[twisti]>like people dont seem to like this that arent new
07:29<[twisti]>and towns dont rate your things as well if its not new
07:30<@planetmaker>if you service well with vehicles that's not an issue
07:31<[twisti]>huh ?
07:33<[twisti]>i dont understand how you mean that
07:34<[twisti]>for example, station ratings go down 23 points if the last vehicle there wasnt new
07:34<[twisti]>Ammler whats that ?
07:34<Ammler>replace a old train with a new one
07:35<[twisti]>right, but i dont want to have to do that all the time
07:35<[twisti]>so i was hoping for a way to just freeze the date or something
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07:38<DanMacK>It's called pause :P j/k
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>play in the year 5000000
07:39<@planetmaker>I think DanMacK has quite a point :-)
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>but this is a good idea for a hidden/console setting: looping year [default: 5000000]
07:41<[twisti]>is this a joke or is there something special about year 500000 ?
07:42<@planetmaker>#define MAX_YEAR 5000000
07:43<Hirundo>5000000 is the real 2012, the world ends in that year
07:44<[twisti]>so if i set the game to year 5000000, it will stay there ?
07:44<andythenorth>I saw a hindu hairdresser on tv a few days ago, he said the end of the world is in 250 years
07:44<@planetmaker>it must be right. It was in TV
07:45<andythenorth>one day an end of the world cult will actually be correct in their prediction :P
07:45<andythenorth>I hope they're satisfied when they're proven right :P
07:45<[twisti]>yeah but nobody will care
07:45<[twisti]>quite certain
07:45<[twisti]>its the end of the world, remember
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07:46<[twisti]>its pretty unlikely that people will be concerned about who called it while they are, you know, dead and dying
07:49*andythenorth never thought of that
07:49<[twisti]>thats the problem with doomsday prophecies
07:49<[twisti]>either there is some point where people will laugh at you and ridicule you, like january 1st 2000, or youre right but then you never get to brag about it
07:49<[twisti]>its lose-lose
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>there are about a dozen doomsday prophecies per year...
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>eventually, one of them is bound to be right :p
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>hm... gray-furry-thing-that-makes-miau-slightly-less-often-than-black-furry-thing-that-makes-miau
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08:21<dihedral> <- any use for this?
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09:51<George>Is there anybody here who can say, how hard is to implement FS#4399 ?
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10:01<Pulec>who is czech here?
10:01<Pulec>and who can do stuff in php?
10:04<@planetmaker>wrong channel for that?
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10:11<Pulec>yeah maybe
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11:08<DanMacK>Hey Lakie
11:08<Lakie>Hi DanMacK
11:10*andythenorth wonders how bananas works
11:10<andythenorth>specifically, if I set min version to nightly, can 1.1 beta users get it?
11:10<andythenorth>seems so
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>the station build window _really_ could use remembering the size
11:24<andythenorth>start there, you could do all of them :P
11:24<andythenorth>why stop at just one?
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11:27<Eddi|zuHause>because this one has an absurdly low default size
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11:29<Eddi|zuHause>other candidates are very loaded windows like the newgrf settings
11:30<andythenorth>buy menu
11:30<andythenorth>actually there aren't that many with a problem
11:30<andythenorth>buy menu
11:30<andythenorth>newgrf window is another story
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>while at it: ctrl+click the resize button restores default size? useful or not?
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11:41<volta>hi folks, is the following a normal behaviour: i have a train station (no train inside) and build another station at the same place (format doesn't matter); instead of getting an error 'must demolish railroad station first' the game builds the new station above the old one
11:41<supermop>yes, that is normal
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11:42<@planetmaker>and by design
11:42<@planetmaker>so that you can beautify your station by just overbuilding it
11:42<supermop>it allows you to replace a station with another station type
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>"since Monty Python offers free videos at youtube, DVD sales have risen by 23000%"
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11:43<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: that cannot be true ;)
11:45<volta>ok, what about the costs? compare overbuilding with removing station, tracks and building the new station
11:45<+glx>overbuilding costs less
11:46<@planetmaker>you don't have remove the tracks. Consider re-building a house against just renovating
11:47<supermop>hy andy
11:47<volta>ok, sounds logical, but for me it's still a strange feature
11:47<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: true?
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i have not more information than is in the link
11:48<supermop>I just had an idea while in that thread about the firs docks
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>it sounds perfectly plausible, though...
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12:05<andythenorth>what does "Show company liveries" do in advanced settings?
12:06<supermop>are they not always shown?
12:06<andythenorth>can't see anything changing when I use it
12:07<supermop>maybe it affects if you have set different colors for different vehicle types
12:07<supermop>so in mp you can't have trains that look like they belong to a competitor?
12:08<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that makes it clear that spreading stuff for nothing is detrimental for the sale of blurays
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12:17<supermop>can docks draw sprites based on waiting cargo like platforms can?
12:19<@planetmaker>only rail stations can
12:20<@planetmaker>actually maybe airports can, too
12:20<@planetmaker>*that* might be interesting...
12:20<@planetmaker>but neither docks nor road stops
12:24<supermop>so much for that idea...
12:24<andythenorth>patch it
12:25<supermop>someone made a firs dock, and there seemed to be disagreement as to whether it shoulf look like a passenger or freight terminal
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12:26<supermop>but if you had a plain dock and "built" passenger buildinds or cranes on it based on what typ of cargo waited there most in last x days (forget how that part of station code works, because i have yet to use it),
12:26<@planetmaker>A dock should be multip-purpose
12:26<@planetmaker>as long as we don't have newgrf-able ones
12:26<supermop>you could get around the fact that we only have one dock
12:27<andythenorth>I would not go cargo specific
12:27<supermop>so a dock with many passengers ad goods waiting could have a few passengers and a few stacks of crates
12:27<andythenorth>I always use ISR tiles for waiting dock cargo
12:27<supermop>or lets say one passenger terminal and one crane
12:31<supermop>i need this
12:31<@planetmaker>supermop: the true solution to this issue is only newgrf ports
12:32<DanMacK>Who was working on this?
12:32<supermop>yeah, this was an idea for a newgrf as a stopgap that I thought i could make
12:33<supermop>but if docks cannot yet show cargo, it seems it would be just as hard to implement as proper ports
12:34<DanMacK>ISR tiles are a good stopgap though
12:35<supermop>along the lines of pickles and cured meat we were discussing earlier
12:35<andythenorth>anyone got 5 mins to kill and wants to help an easy FIRS task?
12:35<supermop>tea and coffee would make other good cargos for an early industrial cargo
12:36<@planetmaker>especially salt. And spice.
12:36<supermop>i have 5 minutes, but i am sure i cannot help
12:36<supermop>FIRS: Dune economy
12:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: define "easy" and "task"
12:36*DanMacK is thinking of a "very" early idea
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12:36<supermop>Spice, spice supplies
12:36<supermop>thats it
12:37<DanMacK>Ship it on Sandworms
12:37<@planetmaker>DanMacK: that would need road types
12:37<supermop>sandworm pulled trams in heqs
12:37<@planetmaker>type: 'sand dunes'
12:37<DanMacK>Rail type ;)
12:43<supermop>or sand instead of water, with worms in FISH
12:44<andythenorth>I need to know what other industries have a similar issue to this one:
12:44<@planetmaker>should be moderately easy
12:44<andythenorth>i.e. described in t, but actually in l, crates etc
12:45<andythenorth>checked in game, or by looking in the string files
12:57<__ln__>we even used to have the Muad'Dib on the channel in the past
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13:03*DanMacK wants to do a grf with very early industries and mules/horses and such
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13:06<supermop>and pickles?
13:06<LordAro>howdo all
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>DanMacK: ECS with way downscaled industries, and "mules" instead of "vehicles"? :)
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13:10<Eddi|zuHause>DanMacK: or a "settlers" economy grain->food->ore->tools?
13:10<DanMacK>pretty much
13:10<DanMacK>"Ox Cart" is the heavy-duty cargo hauler :P
13:11<andythenorth>back to drawing MacKellar!
13:11<andythenorth>stop having ideas :D
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13:12*planetmaker hands mouse, colours, a few blank sheets of drawing paper, a comfy chair, servers a few cookies and supplies a few beverages and then locks the cubicle's door. *click*
13:12<@planetmaker>no, really, no stress! :-P
13:13<@planetmaker>but you won't get out before this is full of AWESOME sprites! ;-)
13:13<@planetmaker>does that work also for you, andythenorth ?
13:13<Vikthor>hey, don't be so cruel give him at least a tablet :)
13:13<@planetmaker>I mean... on you?
13:15*planetmaker hugs DanMacK :-)
13:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: what am I supposed to be shipping?
13:16<andythenorth>or do you mean the 'less ideas' part?
13:16<@planetmaker>nah, I meant the 'get drawing' part ;-)
13:17<@planetmaker>well... ore mine?
13:17<andythenorth>yeah, that and my other 92 FIRS tickets :)
13:17<andythenorth>I want to get this one done:
13:17<andythenorth>but willing volunteers seem to be lacking today
13:18<@planetmaker>meh... that sounds annoying and tedious
13:18<andythenorth>just change the strings...
13:18<andythenorth>I don't mind
13:18<andythenorth>but I bet there are many more industries where that applies
13:19<@planetmaker>well. The industry works (internally) always with units and doesn't care about weight, right?
13:19<@planetmaker>So if a unit weighs 100kg, a 30 unit wagon will ship 3t, right, but the industry will use 30 units?
13:19<@planetmaker>then adopt the string
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13:20<andythenorth>to refer to units?
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13:41<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22065 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4500]: pool allocation checks triggered when towns could not be built
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22066 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4502]: building a statue did not check whether the object pool is full
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14:00<andythenorth>planetmaker: I might just reject that crates / t / liters ticket :P
14:00<andythenorth>it's a headache to make right :)
14:01<Ammler>move it to version "unplanned"
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14:02<andythenorth>what about this one... Worth fixing?
14:03<supermop>sure, but i think most people could make an educated guess
14:05<andythenorth>should go in the readme perhaps
14:06<supermop>probably do not need to describe what milk or steel are either...
14:06<andythenorth>plant fibres is a bit more...unusual
14:07<supermop>but not as mysterious as say, supplies,
14:07*TruePikachu produces goods
14:07<supermop>but people seem to accept that supplies go where they do
14:08<TruePikachu>Goods are:
14:08<TruePikachu>All loaded in the same kind of car
14:08*TruePikachu puts meat on flatcars and lumber in refrigerator cars ;)
14:10<Nite>i do not accept "supplies" no no ...
14:10<Nite>i vote for "stuff"
14:11<Nite>or "things"
14:12<Nite>you can easily tell where supplies go because of the prefix (farm etc) but can hardly tell who supplies the right supplies
14:12<DanMacK>"Stuff" makes "Things"
14:13<TruePikachu>What about "Objects"?
14:13<Nite>thats new
14:15<TruePikachu>Equipment <-- actually, that one can make sense
14:15<Nite>last 2 are ok ...
14:16<Nite>but still they could be anything
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14:16<TruePikachu>"Components" can be for i.e. electronics
14:16<Nite>think of what supplies a farm needs and choose the most common
14:16<TruePikachu>"Equipment" is best as being machinery needed to produce something
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14:17<TruePikachu>Farm Equipment
14:17<TruePikachu>Tractor <-- there
14:17<@planetmaker>we should go back to "primary stuff" and "secondary stuff". All pain gone
14:18<TruePikachu>Tractors, seeds, feed(s), workers, animals, land (bit hard to package), fertilizer, etc.
14:19<TruePikachu>Permutations of Atoms
14:21<Nite>i wonder why transporting "land" is not very common *LO*
14:21<andythenorth>it is in HEQS :P
14:21<andythenorth>FIRS had components
14:21<andythenorth>I removed them
14:21<andythenorth>it seemed smart, but wasn't
14:21<@planetmaker>fertilizer hardly qualifies as farm equipment
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14:21<TruePikachu>Tractors do
14:22<andythenorth>what are we talking about?
14:22<TruePikachu>%^@# !!!
14:22<Nite>all umbrella terms are bad
14:22<andythenorth>are we fooling, or is one of you trying to make something?
14:23<TruePikachu>Well, for farms, I'm for "Tractors", as they are the stereotypical farm equipment
14:24<Nite>well farms mostly need "food" fro their animals trnasport hay and strow between them, and need fertilizer ... and some vehicles
14:24<TruePikachu>When you think of farms (here in the US), you generally think of a red barn with a silo to the right, farm animals, and a tractor
14:24<Nite>you just do not want fertilizer and vehicles because it is in ECS already
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14:24<Nite>vehicles make sense ...
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14:25<TruePikachu>Tractors specifically for farms
14:25<andythenorth>what are you designing?
14:25<Nite>just brainstorming
14:25*TruePikachu actually doesn't know
14:25<TruePikachu>^^ what Nite said
14:26<Nite>well we are designing implements
14:26<Nite>and dingbats
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14:28<Nite>hotchpotch ...
14:29<Nite>"useless clutter vector"
14:29<andythenorth>we did discuss a long time the uses of products from sewage farm
14:30<Nite>lol @ own joke
14:30<Nite>well i have 2 go cya
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14:55<TGYoshi>hai all x]
14:58*Rubidium runs
14:58<TGYoshi>nl? :P
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14:59<TGYoshi>heightening a part water is expensive
15:00*Rubidium has no conclusive evidence to prove that, or to disprove it
15:01<andythenorth>ok fanks bai
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15:01<TGYoshi>My company is worth 2 euro's.
15:01<TGYoshi>cool x]
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16:07<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22067 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: don't hold a mutex when sending packets and thus possibly closing the connection as that wants to acquire the mutex again
16:09<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22068 /trunk/src/network/ (core/tcp.cpp core/tcp.h network_server.cpp): -Codechange/Fix: return "connection lost" instead of "okay" when SendPackets closed the connection
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16:16<thomas001>hi, i am a bit curious: are there any efforts to change world generation for openttd? somehow i really miss rivers in the generated maps
16:17<Rubidium>plenty have tried
16:17<thomas001>plenty have failed?
16:20<Rubidium>and I won't spend time on it until there are graphics for openttd.grf
16:20<Rubidium>or I'd actually say that those graphics are a prerequisite to getting any sort of automatically generated rivers on maps
16:24<supermop>what graphics are you looking for Rubidium?
16:28<Rubidium>can't you deduce that from the discussion?
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16:29<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22069 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: delete all savegame packets, not just the first one
16:29<@peter1138>i got distracted by other projects :p
16:31<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22070 /trunk/src/ (network/network_server.cpp openttd.cpp saveload/saveload.h): -Fix [FS#4503] (r21399): crashes when disconnecting after requesting the map
16:32<Rubidium>supermop: bravo
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16:40<@planetmaker>Rubidium: what's wrong with the ones in ogfxe_extra.grf?
16:42<Rubidium>they don't use the original graphics' water pattern
16:43<@peter1138>making decent rivers is way harder than a couple of sprites...
16:43<@planetmaker>that's a simple copy&paste action...
16:44<@planetmaker>done in like 60 minutes even by such graphics-editing-impared as myself
16:45<@planetmaker>if it's just adopting the ogfxe - sprites to TTD colours
16:45<@planetmaker>and patterns
16:46*Rubidium wonders why nobody I've "asked" has taken that approach
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16:48<@planetmaker>you want them?
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16:49<Rubidium>if we want intro games using rivers to look okay, then definitely
16:50<@peter1138>are they the rivers with rigidly straight edges?
16:50<thomas001>it whould be nice if the terrain generator could also do some erosion and stuff (valleys cut in the landscape by rivers) :)
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16:51<@peter1138>lots of things would be nice
16:51<@peter1138>do you feel up to it?
16:52<thomas001>i whould like to, but i try to get my phd which takes A LOT time :(
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16:53<@peter1138>you should prioritise the quick jobs first
16:53<thomas001>but then long run jobs might never get finished
16:54<thomas001>but i see you argument, sorry for only demanding things
16:54<Rubidium>well, the long running jobs get interrupted all the time
16:55<Rubidium>where long is quite relative
16:55<@planetmaker>such is life
16:55<Rubidium>putting them at the front of the queue and NOT interrupting them, that is definitely impossible (for a long enough job)
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17:03<andythenorth>so Bananannananaas doesn't have a 1.1.x field for newgrf compatibility
17:03<andythenorth>I guess that's intentional?
17:04<+glx>beta are nightlies
17:04<Rubidium>1.1.0 would mark the stable release
17:09*Terkhen got a pentium-s
17:09<@Terkhen>maybe I can try OpenTTD in ms-dos with it :)
17:09<Rubidium>pentium s?
17:10<@Terkhen>that's what the bios says
17:13<Rubidium>ah, so basically second generation Pentium
17:13<Rubidium>(but not third/fourth pro/mmx)
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17:15<@Terkhen>I guess :)
17:16<+glx>when I tried on my 133MMX it failed
17:16<@Terkhen>hmm... I think this has 100 MHz
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17:17<@Terkhen>I'm cleaning it right now, booting it again in its current state is a risk :)
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17:33<DanMacK>Later all :D
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18:02<Wolf01>I *hate* my DSL line
18:02<@peter1138>so do i
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18:02<Wolf01>planetmaker, did you try OpenTTD for PSP?
18:03<@planetmaker>if you ship me one, I might
18:03<Wolf01>eheh :D
18:04<Wolf01>I'll try it now
18:04<Wolf01>if I find the memory stick adapter
18:04<@planetmaker>it's like stone age
18:07<@planetmaker>anyway, I guess I'll go to bed while you try shipping your PSD to me - after you found the memory stick adapter :-P
18:07<@planetmaker>good night :-)
18:12<Wolf01>nighty night planetmaker
18:14<Wolf01>ah, 0.5.3 :D
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18:23<Wolf01>seem to be playable
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19:28<@Terkhen>good night
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19:50<xiong>I dunno. Somebody, a week ago, was talking with me about industrial service, particularly about the technique of delivering small quantities of FIRS engineering and farm supplies regularly. I started to think I should write it up for the openttd wiki but for that, I loaded a vanilla setup with no NewGRFs. I wrote a lot of words and made a lot of screenshots but I think this misses the purpose.
19:51<xiong>I've been writing up a few other strategies I've been using and they all eventually seem to come back to FIRS. Would there be any welcome for a FIRS walkthrough? I wouldn't pretend to write the definitive guide but there's really very little documentation on it. And a FIRS game is significantly different from others.
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20:09<xiong>I'd enjoy a comment on the thought.
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22:32<@Yexo>xiong: you could try to enhance
22:36<xiong>Yexo, That's a very, very basic intro.
22:36<xiong>I had in mind to cover quite a few topics that all seem to revolve around FIRS, although they may apply to other layouts, of course.
22:37<@Yexo>yes, it's still basic, but maybe you could expand it
22:37<xiong>There is the notion of regular delivery to primary industries; that's the last point touched on.
22:37<@Yexo>anyway, I shouldn't be commenting on IRC after too much alcohol on this hour
22:37<@Yexo>sleepy time :)
22:37<xiong>Yexo, well, enjoy.
22:37<xiong>Your drunken comments are worth more than no comments at all.
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 13 00:00:02 2011