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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-13

---Logopened Sun Feb 13 00:00:02 2011
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01:43<z-MaTRiX>some new terraforming limits?
01:43<z-MaTRiX>like 18/mo ? <;
01:45<andythenorth>planetmaker: you are an early bird today :o
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01:45<@planetmaker>he, yeah :)
01:45<@planetmaker>People started to move away the snow from the footwalk - which awoke me
01:46<@planetmaker>But it's not a bad time to be awake :-)
01:46<z-MaTRiX>wide awake
01:46<andythenorth>snow :)
01:46<andythenorth>UK snow has long vanished
01:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I'm just reading through the fences... it's awesome
01:47<andythenorth>you know that awesome actually means 'scary' ?
01:47<andythenorth>in the strict meaning :P
01:47<z-MaTRiX> Milk Inc. - Wide Awake (Extended Mix).mp3
01:47<@planetmaker>spot on ;-)
01:47<@planetmaker>it is scary
01:48<@planetmaker>when I first heart (and learnt) the word 'awesome' I thought it meant about the same as aweful and was totally confused
01:48<@planetmaker>gesture, posture and voice didn't fit what I thought was said :-P
01:49<z-MaTRiX>btw pulseaudio is buggy
01:50<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I haven't quite yet managed to "port" that to e.g. the furniture factory. So I'm not through yet, though
01:50<z-MaTRiX>floods /var/log/messages till the hdd is full
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01:50<z-MaTRiX>firefox brought up a page
01:50<z-MaTRiX>Well, this is embarrassing.
01:51<z-MaTRiX>Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web page.
01:51<@planetmaker>and it'll need some parameter adjustment, if you want fences available as parameter
01:53<@planetmaker>anyway... back in a bit. Bakery opens and I want fresh rolls :-)
01:54<z-MaTRiX>not bad idea
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02:11<xiong>z-MaTRiX, Google Chrome. Really. I wasn't sure at first and for some time afterward. Part of my issue was that the vanilla Chrome, right out of the box, is so stripped-down I thought it was missing something.
02:12<xiong>Well, it is: It's missing almost everything that can be missing, so it's rock-solid. Then I went and started to add on the extensions to make it do what I wanted. Now, I'm extremely happy.
02:13<xiong>I have never had a Chrome crash or hang seriously. I tend to open dozens of windows and hundreds of tabs and, yes, eventually I run out of memory and have to wait for swap. But that's my fault and it was only much worse with FF.
02:13<z-MaTRiX>chrome filled my logs?
02:14<z-MaTRiX>ah no it wasnt even ruunning
02:14<z-MaTRiX>btw chrome does not support flash yet
02:14<xiong>z-MaTRiX, Perhaps I have a log file somewhere, growing monstrously. I don't know. I haven't had that issue come up; my disk is not full.
02:14<z-MaTRiX>on linux
02:14<z-MaTRiX>but i like t he chrome idea
02:15<xiong>There's a Flash extension or three, I suppose. I detest Flash, personally but if you want it, I think you can have it.
02:15<z-MaTRiX>i have installed flash plugin
02:15<xiong>Chrome doesn't support very much all by itself, is what I was saying.
02:15<z-MaTRiX>and "working" in firefox
02:16<xiong>Just a thought.
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02:18<z-MaTRiX>wonder why i got / root fs full message when /var is on a 2GB seperate fs
02:18<z-MaTRiX>(RHEL 6)
02:18<z-MaTRiX>64 bit
02:19<z-MaTRiX>[root@matrix log]# ln -s /dev/null ./messages
02:19<z-MaTRiX>now i did temporarily
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03:56*andythenorth ponders some kind of 'newgrf_developer_tools = 2' mode
03:57<andythenorth>allows building anything whether paused or not
03:57<andythenorth>and provides $1bn cash immediately
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04:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth: developer=1 ;-)
04:00<@planetmaker>and scenario editor
04:00<@planetmaker>and you set your pause build mode to 'allow all' already?
04:01<andythenorth>I often lose my settings for some reason
04:01<@planetmaker>where's your openttd.cfg?
04:01<andythenorth>probably because I don't save a game before I quit
04:02<andythenorth>I have to save a game to get config to write changes
04:02<@planetmaker>uhm... no?
04:02<@planetmaker>but you must not kill OpenTTD
04:02<andythenorth>yeah, I do that a lot
04:02<andythenorth>make run
04:02<@planetmaker>and savegame changes never get written to the config file
04:02<andythenorth>then ctrl-c
04:02<@planetmaker>well, that'll loose them, yes
04:03<@planetmaker>only config changes made from the main menu will - when OpenTTD is terminated normally - be written to the cfg
04:04<andythenorth>that's the issue then
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04:10<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:14<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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04:35<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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05:05<heffer>hey guys. i just received a bugreport in our redhat bugzilla. but i have no idea what's really going on there. any ideas?
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05:09<heffer>i can reproduce the bug here
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05:13<heffer>seems to be a bug when using the ChooChoo AI
05:14<@planetmaker>did you try with current trunk?
05:14<@planetmaker>there was somewhat recentlish a fix related to the squirrel implementation / API
05:15<heffer>i'll try it
05:15<heffer>compiling from a nightly should be enough?
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05:20*andythenorth wonders what it takes to fix ship smoke?
05:21<andythenorth>can it be done by adding a cb?
05:22<andythenorth>ho, we discussed this already :)
05:24<andythenorth>the ideas got derailed by a cross MB
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05:37<Rubidium>heffer: reproduce in what kind of timeframe? A few seconds? Several hours?
05:38<heffer>Rubidium: seconds after buying out the company "ChooChoo" which is the yellow one (second on the list)
05:38<heffer>but only with ChooChoo AI enabled
05:38<heffer>i'll try a nightly right now
05:38<Rubidium>oh, missed that action
05:39<xiong>Hey, yeh, I had crashing AI when buying out; ChooChoo involved.
05:39<heffer>okay the nightly seems to survive the buying out
05:39<xiong>Time to upgrade, eh?
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05:43<heffer>i'll give the guy an RPM of the latest nightly and ask him to play with it for a while
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05:45*Rubidium doesn't really have a clue what change would fix that issue though
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05:50<TGYoshi>Everyone idle? x]
05:52<andythenorth>everyone coding :D
05:52*andythenorth has no idea if that's true
05:52<TGYoshi>Why coding? xD
05:52<TGYoshi>Do you've got some tips to start well in multiplayer games?
05:53<TGYoshi>As I usually fail fast :P
05:53<@planetmaker>same tips as for SP
05:53<TGYoshi>And those tips are?
05:53<@planetmaker>build a moderately long, profitable route
05:53<TGYoshi>Hitting the fast forward button?
05:53<andythenorth>important: don't forget you can't pause
05:53<andythenorth>this is a problem when there is about to be a crash
05:53<andythenorth>I always get rinsed in MP when I try
05:54<TGYoshi>I'm a kinda noob in ttd :D
05:54<TGYoshi>Sooo explain ^^
05:54<TGYoshi>By the way.. the 'auto-replace old vehicles' function isn't really liking me I think :\
05:57<@planetmaker>did you read the wiki's tutorial?
05:57<TGYoshi>About the one-line route from coal to power thing?
05:58<@planetmaker>build for a start a route as long as possible as you can afford (mind the price for one or two trains with wagons)
05:58<@planetmaker>do that, and you're done
05:58<TGYoshi>Why as long as possible?
05:58<TGYoshi>Shorter is better?
06:01<@planetmaker>two short routes usually pay less than one long route of the same length
06:01<@planetmaker>except when vehicles are very slow or distances VERY large. Usually
06:01<@planetmaker>with route length I mean the distance between station signs. Not the actual route length
06:02<TGYoshi>Why that?
06:02<TGYoshi>I just go to industry list
06:02<TGYoshi>sort on producity
06:02<TGYoshi>Then get the highest coal thing
06:02<@planetmaker>well. Do what you like to do. You got my answer
06:02<TGYoshi>Find a power thingy near
06:02<TGYoshi>lol :P
06:03<TGYoshi>I still don't get why people build long railways first O_O
06:03<@planetmaker>[12:01] <planetmaker> two short routes usually pay less than one long route of the same length
06:03<TGYoshi>yea, explain that please?
06:04<@planetmaker>I could also try to explain "what is green".
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06:04<TGYoshi>I can explain the inversed of what you explained
06:05<TGYoshi>Short distance is fast traveling, fast delivering, cheap ;D
06:05<TGYoshi>Long is long dilivering, higher route costs
06:05<TGYoshi>Why is that positive
06:05<@planetmaker>you get paid for transport. You don't buy and sell the cargo
06:05<xiong>Dunno, maybe it's because I start in 1850. I find the easiest, most profitable start to be to connect two towns with pax service, two towns so close together that the stations almost touch.
06:05<TGYoshi>Really? O_o
06:06<andythenorth>I always build short routes first
06:06<@planetmaker>a taxi also makes more earnings, if you drive from paris to berlin. and not berlin central to berlin central+1
06:06<TGYoshi>That's true indeed
06:06<andythenorth>but you get cashflow faster with a short route
06:06<TGYoshi>I thought I got paid by dilivering an amount of goods
06:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth: not really
06:06<andythenorth>I haven't tested the strategy one against the other
06:06<xiong>But it takes more time to go further. The most profitable taxicab fare is the shortest.
06:06<TGYoshi>So creating alot of circles before the next station gives more money ^^
06:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: has it been tested in mp?
06:06<@planetmaker>the only difference is the one month longer build time and one month longer travel time. Or so. But the money is MUCH higher
06:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth: of course ;-)
06:07<andythenorth>flat map, same vehicles?
06:07<xiong>In the case of pax/mail, time is important anyway.
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06:07<TGYoshi>Ok, didn't know that, thanks :P
06:07<@planetmaker>how else would we stomp a competitive MP server so that all others surrender? ;-)
06:07<@planetmaker>was quite fun back then :-P
06:07<TGYoshi>Now I get why people start with long roads D=
06:07<TGYoshi>Ok last question I think
06:08*andythenorth wants to argue the case about short routes
06:08<TGYoshi>What are one-way railroad signals or so?
06:08<TGYoshi>I want to try a system with 2 lanes ^^
06:08<andythenorth>but arguing with empirical evidence is quite often dumb :P
06:08<@planetmaker>andythenorth: just look at the payment graph and it becomes quite evident that you have to ship medium to long routes for max. profit
06:08<xiong>Well, planetmaker should know. It's probably just my weird play style. But last game, I had a pax route from one side to the other of the map, about 500 tiles; with an optional stop in-between. I found that express trains were no more profitable than those that made the intermediate stop.
06:09<@planetmaker>and mind that unloading time counts, too, thus that relative dead time is longer
06:09<TGYoshi>Cool :P
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06:09<TGYoshi>Changes the game goal for me totally :P
06:09<xiong>This game, I have the nearly-touching stations and they make almost as much money, per year, as did the 250-tile haul.
06:10<TGYoshi>The fact is that you can't fast forward in MP
06:10<TGYoshi>So loading times are soooooooooo slow
06:10<TGYoshi>then I can understand that fast routes are working way better
06:11<TGYoshi>As traveling then doesn't matter
06:11<xiong>Actually, now that I think of it, the cases aren't comparable, and I think the advantage is to the touching stations. Because in the long haul route, I MU'd two engines and ran longer trains. So ostensibly, the MU'd, double-length trains should have been twice as profitable, all other things equal. No?
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06:12<xiong>TGYoshi, Sorry; did you answer your question about one-way signals?
06:14<TGYoshi>xiong: I can hardly answer my own question
06:15<TGYoshi>The wiki tells me there is one :P
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06:15<TGYoshi>I just don't see it O_O
06:15<xiong>Well, it seemed to have got skipped over.
06:15<xiong>Signals are not simple. You read the wiki page; that's good.
06:15<TGYoshi>complicated stuff is good as long they can be used simple too :D
06:16<xiong>You see six different types of signal. The first and most important idea is that they fall into two separate categories, block and path.
06:16<xiong>The first 4 are block, the last 2 are path.
06:16<xiong>By "one-way", do you mean one-way path signals?
06:16<TGYoshi>No idea :P
06:17<TGYoshi>What's the difference?
06:17<xiong>Well, I dunno if you want me to explain the whole thing, blow by blow. I can give you a very easy strat for signalling your layout, if you like. It may not be optimal but it will work pretty well.
06:18<xiong>I'm happy to explain almost anything in great detail but often, I lose my audience. ;)
06:18<TGYoshi>That's fine, just don't go too complicated :P
06:18<TGYoshi>I'm mainly using the default selected sign thingy
06:18<TGYoshi>that one prevents crashing :P
06:19<TGYoshi>But now I want to have 2 lanes, both going one way
06:19<xiong>Well, you can choose which signal is the default; go to Advanced Settings.
06:19<TGYoshi>Like roads
06:19<TGYoshi>Can I? :P
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06:20<xiong>I suggest you choose standard path signals. Also, set your signal spacing to 2. Then, simply signal every piece of track you have that way. The signals should face *against* the flow of traffic, so that the engineer in the cab of the engine can see them.
06:20<xiong>It's easier to have traffic going only one way on each section of track, than to set up bidirectional track.
06:21<xiong>You have probably been using normal block signals, which will allow bidirectional travel but, if used alone, may screw you up quickly.
06:21<TGYoshi>Standart thing seems to be 'Route signals'
06:21<xiong>Use standard path signals, which are the 5th is the GUI.
06:22<TGYoshi>(no idea if I translate right)
06:22<TGYoshi>yea, that one is standart
06:23<xiong>Well, words are tricky and the jargon seems not to be entirely consistent. From left to right in the signal GUI, I call them: "normal block", "entry", "exit", "combo", "standard path", and "one-way path".
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06:23<xiong>Each one works differently from the others.
06:24<xiong>If you use standard path signals everywhere, you will probably get what you want. If you find trains going the wrong way, or hung up, stalled, waiting to go the wrong way, then you may need to change just one signal to a one-way path.
06:25<TGYoshi>I do use them right now :P
06:25<xiong>I like to put a one-way path signal right in front of any depot. That's usually enough.
06:25<TGYoshi>Just need to force them going into one direction, especially at depots
06:25<xiong>Yes. Exactly correct.
06:26<xiong>Note that trains will avoid passing even a standard path signal from the back; so you don't usually need to do this. But sometimes, a train thinks it's better to go the wrong way than to wait to go the right way.
06:27<TGYoshi>They especially like to think to go to the other way at depots :P
06:27<TGYoshi>Causing jams
06:27<xiong>That's really all there is to it, sort of. I spent a lot of time with complicated signaling schemes before I just started to throw down standard path every 2 tiles.
06:28<xiong>Sure, trains tend to block what's behind them that way. But then, they do anyway.
06:29<TGYoshi>So the 6th of the gui is the one-way thing
06:29<TGYoshi>and I need to turn the lights of the signal so the train can see them - then they CAN pass?
06:29<xiong>Hm. While we're on the topic, sort of: I've also abandoned complex junctions. I just run the tracks criss-cross and connect them with 1-tile diagonal bits. It's crude but effective and works fine with path signals.
06:29<xiong>Correct on both counts.
06:30<TGYoshi>the train is stuck now xD
06:30<TGYoshi>oh wait
06:30<xiong>Oh, one point about that: When you run a main line, leave a one-tile gap between tracks.
06:30<TGYoshi>got the problem
06:30<TGYoshi>need to inverse a sign :P
06:30<xiong>Don't run them adjacent.
06:31<TGYoshi>why not?
06:31<xiong>Um, the payoff is large but it comes in small pieces, here and there. You'll be glad you did.
06:31<xiong>Don't be tempted to save a tile.
06:32<TGYoshi>There is pretty less you can put into there?
06:32<TGYoshi>Uppering the ground isn't possible or so
06:32<xiong>When you look on wiki, you will see many styles of junction, almost all of which have adjacent mains. I don't use these anymore.
06:32<xiong>You don't put anything into the gap; you leave it blank.
06:33<xiong>Erm, I'll show you.
06:33<TGYoshi>mr train is running smoothly now :D
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06:36<TGYoshi>oh like that O-O
06:36<TGYoshi>Nice idea of inversing a train too :P
06:36<TGYoshi>without slowing down
06:36<xiong>You see the cheap junction near the center. The main line runs from NE to SW. There's a station to the SE and another, out of sight, to the NW.
06:37<xiong>The cheap junction works because of the one-tile gap. The little reversing section on the way to the NW station needs the gap to work.
06:37<xiong>Also, the gap helps when building stations.
06:37<xiong>You want to disable "90 degree" turns. They're bad.
06:37<TGYoshi>The gap also seems useful at the SW side
06:38<xiong>So, the little reversing bit you see there is the tightest possible.
06:38<TGYoshi>That junction has to have one :P
06:38<xiong>It is indeed. When you tunnel under one track to bring the other to the same side, the gap helps.
06:39<james_o->My OpenTTD 1.1.0-beta5 client won't connect to my server of the same version; the server gives a version string of r1
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06:39<xiong>Note that the cheap junction, because of the gap, also allows any approaching train to reverse down the main. That little reversing bit to the NW is not really needed; I put it there because I *expect* a lot of reversing there and want to avoid fouling the main.
06:40<TGYoshi>ahh nice :P
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06:40<TGYoshi>So if a train wants to reverse it does to earlyer, not messing up the junction
06:40<@planetmaker>then you didn't compile 1.1.0-beta5 as the server
06:41<xiong>Check this out, TGYoshi:
06:42<xiong>The main line runs past town to yet another station to the NE. In a sense it's not really the main, it's just a spur.
06:42<james_o->I downloaded 1.1.0-beta5 from the website
06:42<james_o->Running configure; make again, that might help
06:42<xiong>Note how I make a juncton there with a short tunnel. Quick and easy; it depends on the gap.
06:43<TGYoshi>Pfff, what gaps can do :]
06:43<xiong>So does my station approach, for that matter.
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06:43<TGYoshi>Isn't it possible too to just split the lines a bit once it's needed?
06:43<TGYoshi>or does that ruin the overseight?
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06:44<xiong>Ruins the eyesight, at least for my old eyes.
06:45<xiong>Also, I have a more or less grand scheme. You see the roads? Those are county roads; I survey them at game start, as soon as I have enough cash to build them. I don't drive on them; I put them down every 32 tiles, each way.
06:45<@planetmaker>uhm... you either downloaded it, or you downloaded the source... the binary versions show to my knowledge the proper version strings.
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06:46<TGYoshi>And inside them putting stuff?
06:46<xiong>I put small signs at each crossroads, more or less; and I put *other* signs at the halfway points, 16 tiles in, and run the mains around these.
06:46<TGYoshi>Seperating the different countries
06:47<xiong>Counties or townships. I set station spread to 32 and only ever have one station per county.
06:47<TGYoshi>pfff, you're going complicated in a game :P
06:47<james_o->planetmaker: I remember there being a server version variable somewhere in the source, perhaps I need to change that?
06:48<xiong>No, it makes planning easier. Each county may or may not have a mainline running through it; may or may not have a station; may or may not have a junction; may or may not have a main line depoting facility. No hard choices.
06:48<TGYoshi>Just to make your view clear? :P
06:48<xiong>I build all the main lines, all the junctions, all the stations, all the main line depoting, all the same, as much as I can.
06:49<TGYoshi>aha, ok :D
06:49<TGYoshi>Thanks for those explainations, tips and blabla :P
06:49<xiong>So I don't have to figure too much out on a case-by-case basis. Instead of assembling one-tile blocks in my head, I'm assembling 32x32 tile blocks.
06:49<TGYoshi>let's see how my new file will end :D
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06:50<TGYoshi>by the way, you have stations longer then 7?
06:50<@planetmaker>the question rather remains: what and how did you compile OpenTTD
06:50<andythenorth>@seen DanMacK
06:50<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 17 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Later all :D
06:50<andythenorth>"DanMack, won't you come back?"
06:51<xiong>Most of my stations are of one type, TGYoshi; "Thin B". There are four platforms, 12 tiles long each.
06:51<@planetmaker>you downloaded the source tar ball?
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06:51<xiong>Long trains are better, at least for freight, since it's not so important how long it takes to load. Long trains break down less frequently than two short trains.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: replace the buttons on the station build menu for 5,6,7 with 6,8,12 [something non-linear-ish]
06:52<TGYoshi>12 tiles long stations is possible?
06:52<xiong>As soon as I get decent engines and cars, I take most trains to about 11 tiles.
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>TGYoshi: use drag&drop for longer stations
06:52<xiong>Sure; why not?
06:52<james_o->I applied a patch that allows reverting to previous autosaves, but I don't see how it could have changed the version string
06:53<TGYoshi>Drag and drop? x]
06:53<TGYoshi>Can you d&d stations?
06:53<xiong>12 isn't even really that long.
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>TGYoshi: there's a huge button "drag&drop" in the window :p
06:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but default max. train length is 7
06:53<xiong>Dunno about drag and drop. I build up my platforms pretty carefully.
06:53<TGYoshi>Cool, never saw that xD
06:53<@planetmaker>it'd be somewhat pointless to offer larger stations by default
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: who made that? ;)
06:54<xiong>Yah, there's an Advanced Setting for that: Allow long trains.
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the problem is, most commonly i want to make 8 tile stations
06:54<TGYoshi>I did saw that setting ^^
06:54<@planetmaker>build 2 x length 4
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that ruins your rating
06:55<xiong>I think the absolute *minimum* length for a platform is 6. I don't see the point of anything shorter, except in weird or temp situations.
06:55<@planetmaker>uhm... no?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so you end up being not able to build the second half
06:55<@planetmaker>the resulting rating reduction *should* be the same
06:55<@planetmaker>but you could use drag&drop like you suggested yourself
06:56<xiong>I wish ISRS, and the station GUI, would give me longer stations. I build them up a few at a time.
06:56<@planetmaker>then it's one build action
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes. but imagine you have permission to destroy 3 tree tiles
06:56<xiong>I like some variety in stations.
06:56<@planetmaker>that's out of my imagination :-P
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: building an 8 tile station reduces your rating below the allowed, so you cannot build any more afterwards, but it allows you to put the whole station
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: building two 4 tile station reduces your rating below the allowed, so you cannot build any more after the first one, so you cannot place the second one
06:57<james_o->planetmaker: make clean; ./configure; make didn't help, I'll try downloading a clean version
06:57<@planetmaker>quite silly ;-) - maybe it's a bug to fail station building then in any case?
06:57<TGYoshi>Cool I've got platforms of 4 :P
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>after building a big station with drag&drop, you usually have not permisson to rebuild it (to build eyecandy tiles)
06:58<xiong>TGYoshi, That may seem like a lot now but you can only haul about 6 regular-size cars onto such a platform, maybe only 5, not counting engine and caboose.
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>at least, if this is the first station in the town, and you did some terraforming to place it
06:58<@planetmaker>james_o-: I don't know what you did, but for me the clean tar ball compiles just fine
06:59<xiong>I also started my early games with many short platforms. I find it works much better to have just 4 fairly long ones.
07:00<TGYoshi>I just keep the 4/5-sized ones for now, I see later if I can do bigger :P
07:01<xiong>TGYoshi, Here's a better view of the concept:
07:01<TGYoshi>looks nice too :P
07:02<xiong>You'd be surprised just how many trains that can handle. But part of the point is that it needn't handle very many, since each is so long.
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07:02<TGYoshi>Does it get clogged up?
07:03<xiong>Ah, that's the beauty part. If you run too many trains into such a station, the trains back up in the depots, not onto the main.
07:04<xiong>The depots are not the bottleneck; the number of platforms is. Generally, a train will break down in the exit interlocking and stall other trains trying to depart. Then, there will be no free platforms, so trains will stay in depot.
07:04<xiong>This makes use of the fact that each depot has a built-in super-signal.
07:04<TGYoshi>Using depots for that purpose :P
07:05<xiong>Note that there are no signals between the depots and the platforms. Also, the one-way path signal that controls entry to the depot interlocking is only one tile away from any depot.
07:06<xiong>It is common, under heavy traffic, to have 3 trains at one time in the depot interlocking -- 1 entering depot and 2 exiting, or 2 and 1.
07:07<TGYoshi>I need to try that setup soon :P
07:07<TGYoshi>Want to see it running
07:07<xiong>Usually 1 and 2 but sometimes you will see the tail end of a train just getting into one depot as another train hits the one-way.
07:08<xiong>The key is the depot super-signal. According to planetmaker, this really is a super-signal; it looks around to see what kind of signal it should be. So, it can act as either a combo block or a path signal, your choice.
07:09<xiong>Don't put both types of signal near a depot unless you want to spend a long time trying to figure out what the depot is thinking.
07:09<TGYoshi>Those setups are a little too complicated for me, yet :]
07:10<TGYoshi>Just need to try it first
07:10<xiong>I mean, there it is, right in front of your eyeballs. Try it!
07:10<TGYoshi>Then I can see what is really does
07:10<TGYoshi>^^, I just restarted xD
07:10<xiong>Heh, I hit on this design because other stations were too hard for me to build.
07:11<TGYoshi>The signal at the most NW side is an one-way thing right?
07:11<xiong>If you haven't loaded ISRS, then probably it looks complicated because of all the eye candy. I can show you the same thing without.
07:11<xiong>TGYoshi, Correct.
07:12<TGYoshi>Wow, you've got that stations just for a forest?
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07:13<xiong>That's a vanilla game, no NewGRFs at all.
07:14<TGYoshi>That's how mine's going to look like :P
07:14<xiong>The forest is important in FIRS. All the earlier shots were from a FIRS game.
07:14<TGYoshi>20 wagons O_O
07:14<TGYoshi>Ok I'll try it out now :P
07:15<TGYoshi>Soooo, the depots will turn the trains around?
07:15<xiong>You sound kinda new so I don't want to push; go at your own pace, I did. But I tell you, once I loaded FIRS, ISRS, and a few other key add-ons, I never wanted to go back.
07:15<TGYoshi>never heard of that stuff soo :P
07:16<xiong>Well, you can't exit the back of a depot. All depots reverse. The only question is what track you put in front of one.
07:16<TGYoshi>I've just got the problem that trains aren't replacing themselves x]
07:16<TGYoshi>Your station looks clever O_O
07:16<xiong>Note that some players consider deliberately reversing the direction of a train using a depot to be a cheap trick.
07:16<xiong>You may not have enough cash.
07:17<TGYoshi>Got 7,5 mil now :P
07:17<xiong>Or, your trains may not yet be old enough. Or you may have the relevant setting off.
07:17<TGYoshi>Settings, eh?
07:18<xiong>TGYoshi, This game has a ridiculous number of settings. That's before you start loading NewGRF add-ons, some of which also have "parameter" settings.
07:18<james_o->planetmaker: I ran diff on the source files of the clean version and my patched version, for some reason rev.cpp had been changed in my version
07:18<xiong>By ridiculous, I mean that you want to spend hours reading over the setting possibilities. A small change makes for a completely different style of game.
07:19<xiong>You will come back to Advanced Settings over and over in the first few weeks.
07:19<xiong>If you play on a server with unfamiliar settings, you may be lost.
07:19<xiong>-- ask for help.
07:20<TGYoshi>Little question
07:20<TGYoshi>You built two stations at your last pic right?
07:20<TGYoshi>With one line in the middle
07:20<xiong>There are Game Options, Difficulty Options, Advanced Settings, the aforementioned NewGRFs, and other settings that can only be changed in the ingame console or by editing your openttd.cfg.
07:21<TGYoshi>that a game can be that complicated :p
07:21<xiong>Ahem ahem. I lied. I left *room* for another station.
07:21<TGYoshi>You mean by that?
07:22<TGYoshi>Just two stations near eachother?
07:22<andythenorth>safe to say, the number of settings is seen as a problem, not a feature
07:22<xiong>You mean this one?
07:22<TGYoshi>that one is fine too :P
07:22<xiong>There's a stockyard in the next county to the NE; I'll build a station there.
07:22<TGYoshi>Yea, why two stations?
07:22<xiong>Oh, wait, I see.
07:22<TGYoshi>I don't
07:23<xiong>Look at the vanilla version, it'll be more familiar:
07:23<TGYoshi>Why two stations?
07:23<TGYoshi>There is one line in the middle seperating them
07:23<xiong>See the mini-station near the factory, with the sign "Thin B Main"? That's the station.
07:23<@planetmaker>well, mostly they need a way to manage them to configure them quickly for different purposes
07:23<xiong>There's only one rail station in that shot.
07:24<@planetmaker>there are only few which really can go
07:24<TGYoshi>Huh, the others got no name?
07:24<xiong>Right. They are all elements of the same station.
07:24<TGYoshi>And they can gather stuff from both the factory and the mine?
07:24*planetmaker currently moves some settings
07:24<xiong>I built the little, isolated one-tile station just to hold the sign up, out of the way; and to make sure the station's catchment would include the factory.
07:24<xiong>-- and the mine, too.
07:24<TGYoshi>Cool :P
07:25<TGYoshi>How did you made those elements ? :P
07:25<xiong>If you have your settings chosen correctly, it's as easy as Ctrl-clicking when you build a station element. You get a dialog.
07:25<xiong>I choose quite a few settings for this. ;)
07:26<TGYoshi>Ctrl clicking does something? :P
07:26<TGYoshi>-- sorry, I'm eating something now, 5 minutes
07:27<xiong>If you have allowed disjoint stations, etc., then you get a dialog asking if you want to build a new station or join an existing one. All the elements must lie within the "station spread", which is another setting. I advise you to ignore the dire warning, which appears to be appropriate for Commodore64.
07:28<xiong>Maybe I really should write up that walkthrough.
07:30<TGYoshi>back :P
07:30<TGYoshi>I got almost all default settings xd
07:31<xiong>I have changed nearly every setting there is in Advanced Settings; and changed most of them back, or again.
07:32<xiong>I can't count how many wrong theories I have had in the course of learning this game. I don't know how many wrong ones I still have.
07:33<TGYoshi>I don't know what all settings do D=
07:33<TGYoshi>By the way
07:33<xiong>Some of these are reinforced by the available docs, particularly the wiki. It's helpful to a point, confusing by turns, and occasionally just plain wrong.
07:33<TGYoshi>is it possible to turn off that industies 'die'?
07:33<xiong>TGYoshi, It is, in several ways. But that takes half the challenge out of play. ;)
07:34<andythenorth>TGYoshi: there's a grf called manual industries that should do that for you
07:34<TGYoshi>indeed, want to try if I like that :P
07:34<andythenorth>if I recall correctly
07:34<andythenorth>the FIRS set allows disabling closure
07:34<TGYoshi>nobody can tell if I like it :D
07:34<andythenorth>but FIRS is not currently designed for beginners :)
07:34<xiong>If you load FIRS, then you will have choices to disable closure very specifically.
07:34<TGYoshi>What the hell is firs xd
07:34<andythenorth>I haven't made FIRS friendly to newbies yet :)
07:35<xiong>andythenorth, What's up with FIRS, anyhow? Why no sugar refinery? What's going on?
07:35<andythenorth>no sugar refinery??
07:35<andythenorth>why no bug report...
07:35<xiong>Hey, all I see is a great green block.
07:35<TGYoshi>New industies?
07:35<xiong>I figured the graphic simply hadn't been drawn.
07:36<TGYoshi>firs looks cool :P
07:37<TGYoshi>Ok need to download now ^^
07:37<andythenorth>xiong: what FIRS version you have?
07:38<xiong>TGYoshi, FIRS is exceptionally cool. So is ISRS; they go together like ham and eggs. So are a large number of vehicle sets; the defaults just plain suck.
07:38<xiong>andythenorth, Um...
07:38<TGYoshi>ISRS is?
07:38*xiong looks
07:38<xiong>FIRS 0.5.2
07:38<TGYoshi>Sorry, noob here, where to download? :P
07:39<andythenorth>TGYoshi: find the newgrf settings window in game splash screen
07:39<xiong>TGYoshi, You can download a great number of NewGRFs without ever leaving OpenTTD. See 'Check Online Content'.
07:39<TGYoshi>I know
07:39<TGYoshi>searched for firs
07:39<TGYoshi>2 results xD
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07:40<andythenorth>xiong: FIRS 0.6.1is not savegame safe with 0.5.x
07:40<xiong>Once you get hooked on them, you will start scavenging the back racks of old porno bookstores, looking for more.
07:40<andythenorth>but is recommended in every other respect :)
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07:40<TGYoshi>Ok great, what do I need to download?
07:40<TGYoshi>They both look worse
07:40<xiong>Now you tell me, andythenorth. What do I do, throw out my beautiful new map? I just got to 1898!
07:41<vb>hello? i need a little help
07:41<vb>curiosity is what i'm infected with
07:41<xiong>TGYoshi, There are so many NewGRFs. You must choose. Many stink. Somebody should write up a list of the good ones.
07:41<andythenorth>xiong: patiene I guess
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07:41<vb>any info about the caboose trucks?
07:41<andythenorth>patience /s
07:41<vb>i can't find any info on wiki
07:42<vb>i remember them being in openttd
07:42<andythenorth>only in newgrf train sets
07:42<andythenorth>not in default game
07:42<vb>i see
07:42<xiong>Yeh, default really is lame.
07:42<TGYoshi>I don't see firs into the list :P
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07:43<TGYoshi>or I'm blind :D
07:43<xiong>FIRS Industry Replacement Set.
07:43<vb>i just started a game in 1925 with default game
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07:43<andythenorth>TGYoshi: do you know what OpenTTD version you have?
07:43<TGYoshi>Yes I think XD
07:43<xiong>You might be better off downloading from andythenorth's link, directly. But then you have to figure out how to install it yourself, which is not hard.
07:43<TGYoshi>1.0.5 as far I know
07:44<andythenorth>I'll check
07:44<xiong>Oh yeah, you gotta download and run nightly. The last "official" release is ancient.
07:44<vb>what mods do you recommend for an enjoyable single player game?
07:44<andythenorth>FIRS doesn't appear for 1.0.5 uses
07:44<andythenorth>users /
07:44<TGYoshi>That sucks :P
07:44<TGYoshi>Shall I update to 1.1.0-b5?
07:44<andythenorth>get the 1.1.x beta
07:45<xiong>vb, FIRS and ISRS to start. Unplayable without.
07:45<TGYoshi>ok ^^
07:45<vb>i also have a problem, the trains in my station don't collect the goods in order
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>TGYoshi: there's not much that speaks against it
07:45<xiong>A decent train set, of course; I use NARS.
07:45<vb>so like, i have 4 trains and 4 tons of coal, each of the 4 trains take 1 ton
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>TGYoshi: unless you play multiplayer extensively
07:45<vb>but i want the first train to take it all
07:45<TGYoshi>solo for now :P
07:45<TGYoshi>I mostly fail in mp
07:46<xiong>eGRVTS and FISH for road vehicles and ships. I also have Bob's Random British Vehicles and Generic Cars.
07:46<TGYoshi>Now I'm searching for a 1.1.0-b5 download :P, doesn't like me again :D
07:46<xiong>vb, It's a setting, improved loading algorithm.
07:47<TGYoshi>oh found it
07:47<andythenorth>xiong: much as I enjoy you recommending FIRS...compared to default game it has 4x number of industry types, and 3x number of cargos...
07:47<andythenorth> might be a bit much at first
07:47<vb>where can i find it?
07:47<xiong>TGYoshi, Nah, go for nightly, you'll be glad you did.
07:47<andythenorth>I'd recommend playing the default climates until bored before trying FIRS :)
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07:47<vb>nars has american trains?
07:47<TGYoshi>New title screen xd
07:47<vb>i'm more into europe
07:48<xiong>Well, dunno, andythenorth. I guess it depends on the steepness of a guy's learning curve.
07:48<andythenorth>vb: UKRS, DB Set, or 2CC train set
07:48<TGYoshi>Found it :P
07:48<xiong>North American Renewal Set. Many of the classic engines from American railroading. Good stuff back to 1850.
07:49<TGYoshi>Now isrs isn't found ^^
07:49<vb>where can i set the loading algoritm?
07:49<xiong>vb, Advanced Settings.
07:49<xiong>Get to know them; there's a lot of them and they all do neat stuff, except the ones that don't.
07:50<vb>tks,i turned it on
07:50<TGYoshi>Ok :P
07:51<xiong>TGYoshi, You really want a better train set, if nothing else. Depending on your world, old or new, NARS, UKRS, etc.
07:52<TGYoshi>New :P
07:52<@planetmaker>Japanese is also quite nice. But arguably not European
07:52<xiong>The default set is like the cheap plastic ready-to-roll box you get at the toy store.
07:52<xiong>Hey, I loaded the Japanese Station Set. Kinky!
07:53<xiong>I don't use the too-obviously J stuff but it makes a nice change from Canadian roofs.
07:53<vb>yay, i kinda broke my savegame
07:53<vb>default train says it needs catenary
07:53<TGYoshi>ok :P
07:53<@planetmaker>well. they might
07:53<xiong>Everything breaks savegames.
07:53<@planetmaker>what's up, Terkhen ? :-)
07:54<TGYoshi>A fatal newgfx error occured :P
07:54<vb>how do i start the train if it says no power?
07:54<@Terkhen>the old computer I got yesterday does not boot anymore
07:55<@planetmaker>vb: you don't
07:55<xiong>vb, There are a number of "AV8" plane sets. When I start in 1850, I eventually get Zepplins (which, apparently, cannot be run at a profit).
07:55<@planetmaker>simple :-)
07:55<xiong>TGYoshi, It is possible for NewGRFs to conflict with one another. You may have to make a choice.
07:55<@Terkhen>and given the burnt smell I'm inclined to forget about fixing it
07:56<xiong>Burnt smell, not a good sign.
07:56<@planetmaker>it usually only happens when you mess with newgrfs on a running game. Thus you must have clicked away a red warning box that you're doing dangerous things
07:56*Terkhen likes the default vehicles BTW
07:56<vb>what AI works with CC2 addon?
07:56<vb>i wanna start a new game
07:57<xiong>Oh yeah. Basic principle: Don't change anything in a game. Make changes, start new game. You *can* do otherwise but don't try this at home. Professional driver, closed course.
07:58<xiong>Ah, New Iron Ore Mine, New Coal Mine. Strictly better-looking, oddly enough doesn't break FIRS at all.
07:59<xiong>I have half a dozen passenger station sets. Still looking for one that's okay. Rural Stations is okay; Canadian Stations is my everyday.
08:00<xiong>Longer Girder, Steel Bridge. There are two opposing viewpoints on bridges: They should be faster; and They should be slower. I'm in the first camp.
08:00<TGYoshi>I'm going to cheat somehow :P, just need to know how :P
08:00<TGYoshi>How to make sure industries will not close with firs? :D
08:01<TGYoshi>Not that cheat, that's boring :P
08:01<xiong>-- oh. That's how to cheat.
08:01<xiong>When you are loading FIRS, set the parameters.
08:01<TGYoshi>I heard about parameters indeed
08:02<xiong>You have a few different choices. I like everything to close; otherwise, the map gets cluttered.
08:02<xiong>Click "Set parameters".
08:02<TGYoshi>I saw
08:02<xiong>But then, I also allow to prospect :)
08:02<TGYoshi>Standart they won't cloase?
08:02<xiong>More of a challenge when you don't.
08:03<xiong>Mm, think maybe could be. Fiddle.
08:03<TGYoshi>Right now it's messing around with ttd :p
08:03<TGYoshi>Economy: Test economy? :P
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08:04<xiong>TGYoshi, Are you seeing the advanced parameter settings dialog, with actual descriptions of what you're changing?
08:04<xiong>Or is it the old funky one-line text entry area, where you have to Ouija Board in raw numbers?
08:05<TGYoshi>A gui
08:05<TGYoshi>In 1.0.5 it was a line :P
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08:05<xiong>Great. So, go ahead, please yourself. Some of the settings are not yet implemented.
08:05<TGYoshi>They're standart off :P
08:05<TGYoshi>So they won't die O_O
08:05<TGYoshi>let's hope so :p
08:06<TGYoshi>Now I have to restart the game... again xd
08:06<TGYoshi>Any other newgfx things I need? :P
08:06<xiong>Um, well, I'll argue the other side. I played with no-close and my map filled up with industries faster than I could even plan to connect them.
08:06<andythenorth>TGYoshi: changing FIRS parameters is mostly safe in game
08:06<xiong>TGYoshi, What have you got now?
08:06<TGYoshi>NA railroad thing and firs :P
08:07<xiong>What about ISRS?
08:07<TGYoshi>That thing doesn't like to find that
08:07<TGYoshi>No results
08:07<xiong>Industrial Stations Renewal v0.8.0 is what I have
08:07<TGYoshi>"International Stereotactic Radiosurgery Society - ISRS"
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>TGYoshi: that's because any sane person abbreviates it "ISR"
08:08<TGYoshi>ok got it
08:08<xiong>Oh, and I really do like New Fences. What is it?
08:08<TGYoshi>New fences :P
08:09<xiong>Yeh, "New fences". All track is fenced; the default fence is ugly.
08:09<TGYoshi>DWE thing?
08:09<TGYoshi>'New Fences' doesn't exist
08:10<xiong>You probably wouldn't give beans for Sailing Ships. It's possible to start this game in 1700.
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08:10<TGYoshi>I start in 1950 :P
08:10<xiong>New fences. Dunno. I don't use the search box, I scroll down the list.
08:10<TGYoshi>pfff xD
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08:11<xiong>Purno's new railway fence
08:11<TGYoshi>ahh got it xd
08:12<xiong>And of course, you probably want a town names set, unless you really want to live in Whifflepoof-by-the-Bath.
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08:12<TGYoshi>indeed :P
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08:13<TGYoshi>got one
08:13<TGYoshi>More? :P
08:13<xiong>Did you load eGRVTS? You'll want those to haul FIRS cargos on roads.
08:13<TGYoshi>a what?
08:13<zydeco>my internets aren't behaving today
08:13<James_>Is it ok to run multiple instances of OpenTTD from the same directory?
08:13<TGYoshi>got it :P
08:14<@Terkhen>hi zydeco
08:14<zydeco>hello Terkhen
08:15<Ammler>James_: as server? You might adjust the port then
08:15<xiong>That's probably plenty, TGYoshi. You'll develop needs as you go along; then you'll chuck the running game, go get more stuff, and start over.
08:15<TGYoshi>Ok :P
08:16<TGYoshi>Let's start a game now ^^
08:16<TGYoshi>I see a village on a very small island XD
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08:16<TGYoshi>2 cells
08:17<andythenorth>get a ship set :)
08:17<Ammler>is there one?
08:17<andythenorth>I'm not sure
08:17<andythenorth>is there?
08:18<TGYoshi>Nothing more now :P
08:18<TGYoshi>want to play XD
08:18<TGYoshi>Cool stuff @ station list :D
08:18<Ammler>don't play with less than 50 newgrfs
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08:20<xiong>Oh wow, I shoudl have been alseep 30 typos ago. Time for beddy with teddy. Night all.
08:23<James_>Ammler: I was thinking of the autosave files - I changed the autosaver to prepend the name of the config file to the autosave file
08:25<Ammler>we run every server in its own working dir
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08:26<TGYoshi>great system with the depot at the station xD
08:26<TGYoshi>Now I just want to know how to assign another element at a station
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08:27<James_>Does OpenTTD take the working directory to be the one containing the config file, or the one that the binary was launched from?
08:27<Ammler>the place where you start openttd
08:28<Zuu>which happen to be the standard behaviour in most if not all operating systems.
08:28<Ammler>that is generic system behavior, nothing to do with openttd
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause>in windows you can set the working directory in the .lnk
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>default is the location of openttd.exe
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08:31<Ammler>we usually have the openttd.cfg in the working dir
08:32<Ammler>also save
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08:41<vb>how do i turn on semaphores in the early game?
08:41<vb>the red and green ones
08:43<vb> :x
08:44<Ammler>spam somewhere else
08:45<vb>i'm not spamming
08:45<vb>go backseat moderate somewhere else
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08:46<fjb>How stupid can anybody be?
08:46<Wolf01>vb, that video is not related at all with the channel -> spam
08:46<@planetmaker>it's not like the youtube link is motivated by any conversation before or after
08:46<vb>i like turtles
08:46<@planetmaker>we don't like spam
08:47<vb>how do i turn on semaphores in the early game?
08:47<@planetmaker>adv. settings
08:47<vb>yes but where?
08:47<Wolf01>they are called light signals, and you can set the year of their introduction in adv. settings as planetmaker told, or you can use ctrl to place them instead of semaphores
08:48<vb>there are hundreds of settings
08:48<@planetmaker>probably in economy...
08:48<Wolf01>or in construction
08:49<vb>oh yeah, found them
08:49<Wolf01>or use the signals gui and select them
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08:59<@planetmaker>_settings_client.gui.show_town_names = !_settings_client.gui.show_town_names; <-- there's certainly a shorter way for this...
08:59<@planetmaker>... but which?
09:00<+glx>^= true
09:00<@planetmaker>:-) thx
09:00<+glx>but some platforms had problems with that IIRC
09:00<@planetmaker>I think we solved that
09:01<@planetmaker>it's used a lot
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09:05<zydeco>but ^= true can be less readable
09:06<Ammler>doesn't look "shorter" either :-)
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09:07<Timmaexx>Good Morning.
09:08<+glx>zydeco: it's a typical toggle
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09:10<@Terkhen>hi Timmaexx
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10:05*andythenorth puzzles
10:06<andythenorth>the FISH log raft gets bigger as it loads
10:07<andythenorth>this leads to a not-ideal jumping effect in the graphics
10:07<andythenorth>the towboat jumps forward
10:07<andythenorth>I can't think of a solution. Ideas?
10:07<@planetmaker>add empty sprites
10:08<@planetmaker>and compression bit set appropriately (no crop)
10:10<@planetmaker>the 3rd byte of the real sprites
10:11<@planetmaker>like 3rd byte set to 0x41 or 0x43 instead of 03
10:12<andythenorth>I think I mis-explained :)
10:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I say: Use in all loading stages the sprites of the same size as the fully loaded one
10:14<@planetmaker>thus for no load you'll have HUGE but mostly transparent ship
10:14<@planetmaker>but when it then loads - it won't jump
10:14<andythenorth>it means it will turn funny :)
10:14<@planetmaker>hm, yes
10:14<andythenorth>the pivot point will be way behind the tug when empty
10:14<andythenorth>I thought of animated frames to move the tug when loading / unloading
10:14<andythenorth>overkill :P
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10:19<@Alberth>shunting ship wagons :p
10:20<andythenorth>articulated ships
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10:24<Eddi|zuHause>THERE IT WAS
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>[Samstag, 18. Dezember 2010] [15:21:07] * Eddi|zuHause waits for the time andythenorth requests ship-wagons :p
10:26<andythenorth>it's happened before ;0
10:27<Ammler>needs crash detection first :-)
10:27<Ammler>or how that is called
10:27<andythenorth>ship-wagons is not same as articulated ships
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: how is that related?
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but tugboat/float is
10:28<andythenorth>not what I asked for :)
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10:51<Rubidium>heffer: it's fixed in r21605 / a duplicate of FS#4324
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10:59<Rubidium>heffer: I doubt there'll be a 1.0.6 though, so if you want to fix it in Fedora you should just use r21605
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11:18<heffer>Rubidium: okay thankd :)
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11:29<dihedral> <- someone want to moderate?
11:29-!-valhalla1w [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:29<dihedral>it's a 2 year old thread!
11:30<dihedral>well - it *was*!
11:30<@Alberth>click the "!" button?
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11:42<dihedral>and report as what?
11:42<dihedral>spam? inappropriate?
11:43<@Terkhen>necromancy :P
11:43<dihedral>it's not in the list :-P
11:44<dihedral>you almost only get to report as "other" - would not be bad if that list was extended a little
11:44<dihedral>orudge, ^ hint :-P
11:44<andythenorth>yeah, but will the tip stop my trains refusing to service?
11:44<andythenorth>in 1.1.x?
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11:49<dihedral>andythenorth, it's not even about that version
11:49<andythenorth>I know :)
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i mostly reported things as "off-topic" [usually in the sense of "wrong subforum"]
11:54<@Terkhen>hi zydeco
11:54<@Terkhen>dihedral: ^ he's the one you were waiting for
11:55<@planetmaker>ho zydeco
11:55<dihedral>Terkhen, i was wondering :-)
11:56<zydeco>so what for?
11:58*planetmaker assumes testing chores :-P
11:58<dihedral>you guess wrong :-P
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12:31<TGYoshi>let's build on
12:31<TGYoshi>or get online :]
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12:34<@Alberth>dihedral: the same arguments you present here imho
12:35<@Alberth>ie what is the difference between asking here, and asking in a pm?
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13:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: does Foobar do Dutch FIRS translation currently, or should I create a few sentences?
13:03<@planetmaker>Alberth: go for it
13:04<@planetmaker>the last one was from Y3xo, I think
13:04<@planetmaker>or from you?
13:04<@planetmaker>FB is around far too seldom :S
13:05<andythenorth>Terkhen: any spanish translation update? :)
13:06<andythenorth>it would be nice to get translations into 0.6.2
13:06<@Terkhen>I'll check :)
13:07<@Alberth>can I borrow the check script from somewhere? :)
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13:07<Regiovogel>good evening!
13:07<@planetmaker>Alberth: repo
13:08<@Alberth>great, thanks
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13:08<@planetmaker>you need to supply a part of the intended filename. like "utch" ;-)
13:08<@planetmaker>or 1F IIRC
13:09<@Terkhen>hi Regiovogel
13:09<TGYoshi>how to convert a car to something else?
13:09<TGYoshi>a wagon*
13:10<TGYoshi>I want a box-wagon to a scrap thing
13:11<@Alberth>click the double box button in the train window for refitting
13:12<TGYoshi>I cloned the train -.-
13:12<TGYoshi>oh wrong button
13:13<TGYoshi>got it
13:13<TGYoshi>ty :P
13:14<@Terkhen>wow, lots of missing strings, it will take a while :)
13:16<Regiovogel>any dev around who'd like to talk a bit about acceleration? :)
13:17<@Terkhen>@get @get #openttd -3
13:17<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Error: '@get' is not a valid topic number.
13:17<@SmatZ>Ammler: :P
13:17<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: ask your question directly
13:18<Regiovogel>i'll try to do so... it's about articulated vehicles
13:18<TGYoshi>SmatZ: invailed certificate :D
13:18<Ammler>SmatZ: oh sorry
13:18<@SmatZ>TGYoshi: it's self0signed
13:18<Ammler>could you dublicate it?
13:18<@SmatZ>Ammler: no problem, I like that idea :)
13:19<Regiovogel>for articulated vehicles, only the first part can have some weight, for the following articulated parts it is always zero, right?
13:19<Ammler>is that MG 2006TTD from DevZone?
13:19<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: yes
13:20<@Terkhen>but the cargo weight is taken into account
13:20<@SmatZ>Ammler: no clue
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13:20<Regiovogel>yes, of course, my question was about the empty weight, sorry.
13:20<Ammler>I have to admit, I didn't even try to search for a ticket :'-(
13:21<Regiovogel>does this also mean that articulated parts don't add resistance on slopes (when empty)?
13:22<@Terkhen>I think so
13:26<Regiovogel>hmh... okay, just tested this with HEQS
13:27<Regiovogel>only the first vehicle does count for this... so, if the first part of a tram leaves the slope, the tram will accelerate to its normal speed
13:28<Regiovogel>looks a bit... strange ;)
13:28<@Terkhen>IIRC this was specified on the NewGRF specs for articulated vehicles
13:28<@Terkhen>I also think it is strange, yes
13:28<Regiovogel>is it likely that there will be a change at some time?
13:28<Regiovogel>yes, it's in the specs
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13:29<@Terkhen>I would welcome that change, but I don't know if it would break existing sets or have any other nasty side effects (besides andy getting annoyed because he would have to tweak HEQS again)
13:30<Regiovogel>the action0 description says that weight for articulated parts "should be zero"
13:30<@Terkhen>but as usual it does not explain why, right? :)
13:31<@Terkhen>there was some discussion about this issue at the improved acceleration for road vehicles thread in the forums
13:31<Regiovogel>if it does, i haven't found the explanation yet ;)
13:31<@Terkhen>you might want to check it out, I don't really remember it
13:33<@planetmaker>[19:27] <Regiovogel> only the first vehicle does count for this... so, if the first part of a tram leaves the slope, the tram will accelerate to its normal speed <-- but it would do that in reality even - there's less 'effective' weight to pull
13:33<Regiovogel>well, speaking of HEQS, yes, the trams need some tweaking... andy knows why :)
13:34<@Terkhen>hmm... I wonder if the acceleration code currently ignores articulated parts completely or if it adds 0 as their weight
13:35<@Terkhen>if the former is true then changing this would have a huge performance impact in games with a lot of articulated vehicles
13:35<Regiovogel>planetmaker: but the wagons also have some weight, so there should be at least any effect on acceleration...
13:35<@planetmaker>true. But honestly, given the scale of this game it IMHO matters not
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13:37<Regiovogel>might be a point, yes...
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13:37<@planetmaker>unless you have a 5-tile tram like in HEQS :-P
13:39<Regiovogel>i was thinking of e. g. building an eight-car-trainset as articulated vehicle (something like ICE3)...
13:40<Regiovogel>there would only be a small impact of the "cargo" weight, so basically the complete weight of the consist would be on the first part?
13:43<Regiovogel>adding weight for powered wagons shouldn't work in this case, because var 23 "should be zero" (there it is again) for articulated parts
13:45<andythenorth>Terkhen: I wouldn't object to changing HEQS (again)
13:45<andythenorth>but I'd be wondering about rv-wagons
13:45<andythenorth>HEQS is only articulated because it has to be
13:46<andythenorth>rv-wagons would suggest taking weight into account correctly?
13:46<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I finally got a computer for profiling, but I still had no time to set it up (and to test if I still get funny results)
13:46<@Terkhen>and IIRC weight is taken into account for wagons already
13:47<@Terkhen>so if HEQS trams were converted for using wagons they would not suffer from this issue anymore
13:47<andythenorth>that was my thinking
13:47<andythenorth>i.e. rv-wagons might disappear the issue for most of HEQS
13:47<andythenorth>other RV sets might still have articulated vehicles :P
13:47<@Terkhen>but other examples of articulated vehicles (such as the one Regiovogel mentioned) would still exist
13:47<andythenorth>I don't really care right now :D
13:48<andythenorth>there seems to be a lot of futzing with acceleration models :D
13:48<andythenorth>but there are bigger fish to fry I reckon
13:48<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I think so, in mostly all HEQS vehicles that would remain articulated, the weight of the empty articulated parts would be negligible in comparison with the first part
13:51<Regiovogel>may i ask what exactly you are talking about? would rv-wagons mean a concept similar to trains?
13:51<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: yes, wagons for road vehicles
13:52<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the translation is done, as soon as I set up ssh in this computer I'll push it
13:53<Regiovogel>Terkhen: wasn't able to find something useful on the forums regarding weight for articulated parts... but it might of course happen that "adding" this would break existing newgrfs
13:55<@Terkhen>somewhere in that thread we talk about the issue
13:55<@Terkhen>originally the rv acceleration patch took into account weight for articulated parts
13:55<Regiovogel>hm, i browsed that thread. have to re-read it a bit more carefully. thanks
13:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: if rv-wagons existed, then for the greater number of articulated RVs, weight of trailing parts would not be a big issue
13:59<andythenorth>just put it on the lead part, and don't worry about it
14:00<andythenorth>for an out-and-back journey on the same route, it should average to be correct?
14:00<@Terkhen>hmm... I don't know
14:00<andythenorth>depends on number of vehicles and length of slope, but in many cases it would average out
14:01<@Terkhen>or be close enough to not matter
14:01<andythenorth>weight would be too high when first starting up slope, and weight would come off slope too soon
14:01<andythenorth>for longer vehicles it wouldn't be the case so much
14:04<@Alberth>andythenorth: <-- just moving dutch strings around to match the order of the generic one
14:04<andythenorth>Alberth: you want commit rights?
14:04<@Alberth>not really
14:05<Regiovogel>is there any information about rv-wagons available? sounds interesting
14:05<andythenorth>so no I have to apply your patch :| :D
14:05<andythenorth>Regiovogel: yesish...mostly no
14:05<andythenorth>^^ +W
14:05<@Alberth>build a WT for newgrfs :p
14:05<andythenorth>Regiovogel: information item's not done
14:06<andythenorth>Alberth: I considered it :P
14:06<Regiovogel>ok, was just wondering ;)
14:06<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: a spec stub which I can't find right now and some irc logs
14:06<andythenorth>and a repo at the devzone
14:06<@Terkhen>there have been changes in that direction already in trunk (mostly unification of road vehicle and train code)
14:06<@Alberth>it would be beneficial for many grfs, I think
14:06<@Terkhen>but besides that it is just a starting project
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14:08<@planetmaker>Alberth: quite so. But the big question is "how"?
14:08<@Alberth>in what way 'how'?
14:08<@planetmaker>It would need some new newgrf specs... a rework of action13 or so
14:08<andythenorth>Alberth: that patch built so I've committed it :)
14:09<@Alberth>ok, now the changed texts :)
14:09<andythenorth>planetmaker: just get make to curl from a url
14:09<andythenorth>and then we all cry when web access is down :(
14:09<andythenorth>stick it in a CMS
14:09<andythenorth>have the CMS use the repo
14:09<@Alberth>some java program run locally?
14:09<@planetmaker>well. I imagine it rather like "update translations" button in the newgrf gui. Which then pulls addon-stuff
14:10<@planetmaker>similar to like grfs and other add-ons
14:10<andythenorth>repo -> defines into CMS -> translation interface -> translations into CMS -> make pulls from CMS
14:11<andythenorth>or CMS commits back to repo
14:11<andythenorth>I don't know how 'trust' is done for web translations
14:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the idea would be to add it to like the existing WT
14:11<andythenorth>I haven't looked at that at all :)
14:11<andythenorth>back to the code for me :)
14:12<@planetmaker>but the biggest problem would be how to a) get the strings from the newgrfs and uniquely identify them
14:12<dihedral>can the existing WT not be extended to also handle newgrf's?
14:12<@planetmaker>b) avoid double work for each version uploaded. Thus to match strings accross versions
14:12<@Alberth>I was thinking a much more local concept, running at a user his own machine
14:12<dihedral>iirc TrueBrain did have in mind to allow multiple projects be handled
14:12<@planetmaker>c) how to get those strings to the user and how to handle it. Grfs need to match md5, esp. in MP
14:13*TrueBrain awakes from hybernations, reads, realises planetmaker and Yexo have those answers, and retreats back in his cave
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14:14<@planetmaker>need a stick with some fire? :-P
14:15<TrueBrain>I already have a stick
14:15<TrueBrain>trying to find some ore now
14:15<TrueBrain>(/me loves references :p)
14:15<@planetmaker>ah, right. Happy digging ;-)
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14:16*andythenorth goes north
14:17*andythenorth there is a sprite sheet here
14:17*andythenorth pick up sprite sheet
14:18*andythenorth the sprite sheet is empty
14:18*andythenorth fill sprite sheet
14:20<andythenorth>@calc 5*3
14:20<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 15
14:20*andythenorth hoped arithmetic had changed recently :(
14:22<@Alberth>maybe it changed back just before you tested
14:26<dihedral>andythenorth, that is quite sad that you needed DorpsGek for that calculation :-D
14:27*andythenorth has one of those boring 'both solutions are wrong' problems
14:27<andythenorth>in fact all three solutions are wrong
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14:27<andythenorth>I need a three dimensional sprite sheet, and I only get two dimensions
14:29*andythenorth does something else
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14:29<andythenorth>beer even
14:31<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22071 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix (r20075): some hotkey names in hotkey.cfg for the scenario editor toolbar were completely bogus
14:35*andythenorth figures that a third dimension is using separate files
14:35<andythenorth>and that nobody else has a clue what he is doing
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14:43<Regiovogel>Terkhen: in the thread about your improved acceleration, you wrote "It is more complicated than it seems, as there would be some problems with tractive effort." (about weight for articulated parts)... am i right to assume it's about powered/unpowered articulated parts?
14:43<@Terkhen>probably, back then I did not really understand the difference between articulated parts and wagons
14:45<dihedral>having a highlight on java is not too good when sitting in the ##java channel :-P
14:45<Regiovogel>e. g. for andys trams, only the weight of the first vehicle should be taken into account for TE calculation; but in some modern 5-part-tram the weight of all parts should be considered...
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14:48<@Alberth>planetmaker: ?
14:48*Rubidium offers dihedral a cup of java
14:48*Regiovogel isn't too good in writing english texts...
14:48*andythenorth looks at sugar cane trams in java
14:49<dihedral>i'd rather have a cup of pg tips :-P
14:49<Regiovogel>speaking of trains, i'd say that the biggest difference would be that a vehicle built of articulated parts is a fixed consist, while wagons can be moved out of them (more or less) easily
14:50<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22072 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r21966): flipping wasn't (correctly) disabled in some cases
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14:54<Regiovogel>the best solution for allowing weight for articulated parts would surely be to let the newgrf tell if it wants to use that function... for correct TE calculation, the articulated parts would have to be marked as powered
14:59<Regiovogel>is there an easy way to check if articulated parts have weight set only by analyzing the newgrf? or would it be necessary to build all articulated vehicles of a newgrf and show the information somewhere?
15:04<@Alberth>look for the 'weight' vehicle setting in the NFO code?
15:05<@Alberth>you can probably fool the analysis with jumping around
15:06<Regiovogel>the nfo code gives me the weight property, but it doesn't say if it's used as articulated part :)
15:07<Regiovogel>would be interesting to know what the usual way of coding articulated vehicles is
15:08<Regiovogel>if the articulated parts use another vehicle ID, the weight could of course be 0
15:09<asilv>i don't know what the usual way is, but i have used same id for both front and the other parts
15:09<Regiovogel>but if all parts use the same vehicle ID, they all would get the same weight if the behaviour would be changed
15:10<asilv>yes, and to be honest i don't relly see need to change it, the effect is not usually noticeable
15:11<Regiovogel>in some test grfs i wrote i also used the same ID
15:12<Regiovogel>andys trams e. g. use other IDs for the wagons, but in this case i think it makes sense
15:13<@Alberth>any current newgrfs would be incorrect if they use anything else than 0 in the articulated, wouldn't they?
15:14<asilv>weight for articulated parts is currently ignored so most newgrf authors propably haven't paid much attention to it
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15:15<Regiovogel>when weight for articulated parts would be taken into account, yes, they would be
15:17<Regiovogel>it would have to be enabled by the newgrf author to not break existing sets...
15:22<Regiovogel>oh, and i think i might have found a "bug" today...
15:23<Regiovogel>was just testing some modifications to the gui
15:24<Regiovogel>when changing the freight multiplier ingame, vehicle weight is not recalculated
15:24<@Alberth>Terkhen: no way to get rid of false positives in the check_language script other than by changing the line?
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15:27<Regiovogel>should i open a task on flyspray for that or will it be closed as "won't fix" because that is not supposed behaviour by users?
15:31<@Yexo>the setting cannot be changed in a multiplayer game, so it can't cause any desync issues
15:31<@planetmaker>interesting patch, Alberth :-)
15:31<@Yexo>so I'd expect it to take effect immediatly
15:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: yeah, but no way to say "I checked the strings, and they are fine"
15:32<@planetmaker>yeah, it needs something like "this is ok"...
15:33<@Alberth>Regiovogel: in my view, vehicles should be recalculated (whatever that means)
15:35<Regiovogel>well, technically it would mean calling CargoChanged() for every GroundVehicle...
15:35<@Yexo>no, calling Train::MarkDirty() for every train instead
15:36<Regiovogel>ah, okay
15:37<Regiovogel>RoadVehicles obviously don't use the cargo factor, do they? overlooked that...
15:37<@Yexo>indeed, it's only for trains
15:37<@Alberth>just a matter of time :)
15:37<@Terkhen>Alberth: I did not find any good way of avoiding those false positives
15:41<Regiovogel>so, am i supposed to open a ticket? i'm used to do this from work... (but then i'm opening those tickets solve them myself...)
15:41<@Yexo>no need, I'll commit a fix quite soon
15:42<@Alberth>basically check that the 7F variant text did not get changed after the translation got changed I guess, but that is not so trivial
15:42<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: it sounds like it should be recalculated, yes
15:42<@Terkhen>Alberth: but for that you need some "smart" way to store and compare the changes
15:43<Regiovogel>Yexo: ok, thanks :)
15:44<Regiovogel>i'm currently thinking of some kind of acceleration graph
15:44<@Alberth>Terkhen: yep, that's why it is not so trivial :) It sounds too complicated for your general newgrf tbh
15:45<Rubidium>can't you use mercurial + blame + some magic; you'd extract the last time the string was changed from the blame
15:45<@planetmaker>Alberth: Terkhen maybe we could add a file (local only) which stores the strings and the revisions
15:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22073 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Fix: immediately update the train weight when you change the multiplier for train cargo weight
15:45<@Yexo>Regiovogel: thanks for spotting that bug
15:45<@planetmaker>it would then only work for those which have a repo... but well
15:45<@Terkhen>Rubidium: that's what it currently does, it checks the blame revision to know when it was changed
15:46<@Terkhen>but you get false positives when a string is moved to other part of the file
15:46<Rubidium>so do it recursively till the string actually changed?
15:46<Regiovogel>Yexo: you're welcome :)
15:47<@Alberth>Rubidium: that would be the solution I think
15:47<@Terkhen>yes, that sounds good :)
15:47<@Alberth>but that is mostly beyond a simple shell script :)
15:48<Regiovogel>by the way, to all devs... thank you for your work on this great game
15:49<@Alberth>aside from the question whether a translator for a grf should need the history of the project (if it exists in the first place :p )
15:51<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: you are welcome :)
15:51<@planetmaker>we do it also for our joy :-)
15:51<Regiovogel>good to hear :)
15:51<@planetmaker>and nice that there are others who find it useful :-)
15:52<Regiovogel>has anybody thought of something like an acceleration graph by now?
15:52<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22074 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Cleanup (r22073): there was already a setting-callback that did what is needed
15:53<@planetmaker>there are some in the threads which discuss that... *somewhere*
15:53<@Terkhen>hmmm... I remember seeing a graph like that at one of the recent acceleration threads
15:53<Rubidium>Regiovogel: I think people will go insane with such a graph... what, it takes days to accelerate to top speed? ;)
15:54<Regiovogel>Terkhen: i think that these graphs were created with some other tool with values that ottd generated...
15:55<@Terkhen>yes, they were not generated by OpenTTD
15:55<Regiovogel>don't know how hard it would be to use the graphs we currently have for this...
15:56<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: I have a stalled patch for displaying the payment of delivering cargo at a certain speed
15:56<Regiovogel>it's all more about money in them
15:56<@Terkhen>the code for selecting a vehicle works, you might want to look at it
15:56<Regiovogel>ah, that sounds cool
15:56<@Terkhen> <--- the only problem was the speed selector
15:57<Rubidium>heffer: why did you take a grfcodec nightly to get png support instead of say 5.0.0?
15:57<Rubidium>uhm.. 5.1.0 ;)
15:57<Regiovogel>i'd think of having at least two lines in this graph, one for an empty and one for a loaded consist
15:57<heffer>Rubidium: because i was using a nightly already and so i figured it'd be okay to do so again :D
15:57<Regiovogel>(fully loaded, that is)
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15:58<heffer>Rubidium: is there any seriously wrong with it?
15:59<Rubidium>probably not, it's just odd to take a nightly if it's not needed
15:59<@planetmaker>it works nicely on the newgrf compile "farm"
15:59<heffer>Rubidium: yeah you're probably right
15:59<heffer>i'll take the next stable version as soon as it comes out
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16:00<Regiovogel>regarding slopes for the acceleration graph would be a bit harder i think, because every vehicle has its specific resistance for moving on slopes... well, it could be averaged, but over what? average over length, average over number of vehicles...?
16:01<heffer>i'll be updating opengfx as soon als the new grfcodec hits the repos
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16:04<Regiovogel>could also be of interest for buying new vehicles. in the graph window, you could enter the train weight, and when selecting another engine in the buy menu the graph could be recalculated...
16:05<Regiovogel>is it actually possible to access the vehicle acceleration code from a graph?
16:08<@Terkhen>you would need to create a vehicle for that
16:08<Regiovogel>but on the other hand i don't think this is the right way to go, because it is thought to be called when you actually want to accelerate the vehicle...
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16:10<Regiovogel>you mean to call the graph from the buy menu?
16:11<@Terkhen>I mean that the acceleration code is prepared to work with vehicles, not with values (they are class functions of GroundVehicle)
16:12<Regiovogel>yes, that's clear to me... so for calculating the graph for an existing train i would also have to create a new vehicle?
16:13<@Terkhen>yes, because the acceleration code works with the internal values of the vehicle and modifies them
16:13<@Terkhen>so either you create a clone or you backup everything
16:15<Regiovogel>is it actually possible to do these calculations for vehicles that are in a depot?
16:16<wargh>I'm trying to use the autoreplace feature. I choose a train in the left column and one in the right and press start replacing. But not a single train gets replaced. What am I doing wrong?
16:18<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: IIRC you will get always zero because the stop flag is on
16:18<wargh>Autoreplace and autorenew are the only things in the game I can't get to work.
16:19<Regiovogel>i'll play around with the functions a bit...
16:20<TGYoshi>Is there a tutorial about setting up a dedicated server?
16:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: stop requesting bad features all the time :-P
16:20<TGYoshi>Including some standard setting changes
16:21<TGYoshi>And what are the requirements of the server pc to run a 12-player one smoothly? :P
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16:21<Regiovogel>oh, an acceleration graph has also been suggested in 2004, wow :D
16:21<Rubidium>wargh: probably the depots are too far from the routes to be "found" automatically
16:22<Ammler>you stole use the pbs workaround for terminus stations and now you made engines unuseable at the end of the trains (FS#4462)
16:22<@Alberth>oh, 12 players at 64x64 runs smooth everywhere :)
16:22<TGYoshi>256x256 map, 12 players
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16:23<Rubidium>TGYoshi: it depends mostly on the kind of network and such that gets eventually built
16:23<wargh>Rubidium: I have one at each platform. And the routes for the few old trains are short.
16:23<@Alberth>there are some wiki pages about setting up a server afaik, no idea what's on them, I never bothered to look
16:24<Rubidium>wargh: then you'd need to provide a savegame
16:24<TGYoshi>Rubidium: Explain?
16:24<TGYoshi>Monorail is heavyer then simple rail?
16:24<@Alberth>TGYoshi: but we already have plenty of servers, we need moderated ones
16:25<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: the sad thing is, we need years for getting our FRs to trunk, you need some days ;-)
16:25<TGYoshi>Huh, don't get that one too :P
16:25<@Alberth>TGYoshi: mostly number of trains, amount of cargo
16:25<Rubidium>for the server it doesn't matter much whether you have 1 or 64 clients
16:25<TGYoshi>Yea I've got a great 1mb/s upload speed ^^, too low?
16:25<Rubidium>I could even quote you an unpublished paper on that ;)
16:26<Rubidium>as handling a client is basically no work; the game state handling takes much more effort
16:26<TGYoshi>Yea, I play and host on the same machine..
16:26<+glx>server requirements are exactly the same as client
16:26<TGYoshi>However, got no problems running two clients
16:26<@Alberth>TGYoshi: look at the server page, and look at the total number clients. the former is often bigger than the latter. In other words, we don't need more servers, we need someone that actively moderates the games being played there
16:27<TGYoshi>poor you, there will be another server ^^
16:27<TGYoshi>I want to host to play with some friends
16:27<TGYoshi>And maybe public after that
16:27<+glx>and if you have a multicore CPU you can easily run client and server on the same machine
16:27<TGYoshi>quadcore ^^
16:27<+glx>as openttd is monocore
16:28<TGYoshi>It's not heavy for my pc at all
16:28<ABCRic>glx: isn't client heavier than dedicated server because of the graphics?
16:28<+glx>graphics is not the cpu eater :)
16:29<ABCRic>still, it is something :P
16:29<@Alberth>ABCRic: and the server has to sort out all the network
16:29<TGYoshi>Yea, but is 1 mb/s upload speed acceptable?
16:30<ABCRic>my game gets noticeably slower when I have a lot of vehicle windows open
16:30<TGYoshi>my game never gets slow x]
16:31<@Alberth>use lots of boats :p
16:31<TGYoshi>Why :P
16:31<ABCRic>with YAPF :D
16:31<TGYoshi>I never use them xD
16:31<+glx>Alberth: without buoys ;)
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16:38<wargh>Rubidium: Autoreplace started working finally. But it took ages and the trains passed the depots a lot of times. Does the game wait with replacing until the service interval kicks in or something?
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16:40<Rubidium>if the vehicles are normally serviced regularly, yes
16:41<xiong>wargh, Try, in the vehicles list, Send for maintenance. They'll all go at once.
16:43<xiong>I'll tell you what I want: Manual renew, er, autoreplacerenew, er...
16:44<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22075 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#4501]: newgrfs with invalid multi-tile houses could cause a valid 1x1 house following it to be seen as multi-tile, causing crashes
16:44<wargh>xiong: That worked perfectly. Thanks
16:45<xiong>That is, NARS contains different models for different years of the same engine; and these are significant. A wood-burning, 1849 American is not the same as a Heavy2 American, not by a long shot. But I can't autoreplace one with the other.
16:45<xiong>wargh, Cool!
16:46<xiong>I can't autoreplace the same engine with the same engine; and the game sees both engines as the same, even though the old engine still has the old stats and capabilities. This happens with passenger cars, too.
16:48<xiong>So, to upgrade from, say, a wood-burning American to a Heavy, I autoreplace to a Mogul, perhaps, and then back to American. This is not a terrible waste of cash since the brand-new Moguls sell for nearly what I paid for them. But it's messy, especially because whatever engine I swap in, is usually slower, less powerful, or less reliable than what I'm using... which is why I'm using whatever I'm using.
16:48<wargh>I thought the trains would try and replace asap when I issued the order. Lesson learnt. But the Autorenew is still not working for me. It's set to on, -12 months and I have the funds. I have no breakdowns on but I have set the "Disable servicing when breakdowns are set to none" Off.
16:48<xiong>wargh, Interval servicing is tricky. Where are your depots?
16:50<wargh>Just before platforms
16:50<wargh>In front might be a better word
16:50<wargh>Trains pass them just before they enter platforms
16:50<xiong>Okay. But I'm going to bet you're not forcing the depoting; it's permissive. So, you're relying on maint interval setting. What's the interval?
16:52<wargh>No I'm not. I don't like the disruption in flow. So I set it to 800 days since they can't breakdown anyway. I know that this is a long time but eventually they should get renewed. But I've played for 25 years and the trains just kept getting older and older past their maximum age.
16:53<wargh>That's why I tried autoreplace instead
16:54<xiong>wargh, Dunno but I'll bet that if you check out an individual train, you'll see that it's not much more than 28 years old.
16:55<xiong>To depot and autorenew, the train will have to reach the end of its life, then in the worst case, the end of its service interval. Then, it needs to find a depot *when* you have the cash.
16:56<xiong>800 days is about 2-1/2 years. And if you switch on timetabling, you may find that your trains are taking as long as a year to make a round trip -- even more on big maps.
16:56<wargh>I probably should have given it a little more time since I set the interval so high. Even if I set it to renew 12 months before it got old. The cash was never a problem.
16:57<xiong>Cash is usually not a problem ingame. Now, if I could just get openttd to pay my rent.
16:57<wargh>I don't have any routes that take even near a year. :)
16:57<wargh>That would be something.
16:58<xiong>Well. These are the causes I've found. If you disable servicing with no breakdowns, there will be no interval depoting and no autorenew/autoreplace.
16:58<xiong>If you have insufficient funds, no a/a. If the trains simply haven't come up to the end of their life *and* end of their interval, no a/a.
16:59<xiong>And if the train cannot find a depot, no a/a.
16:59<xiong>Remember, just because you can find a depot doesn't mean the YAPF train can find a depot. Sounds like that might not be an issue on your layout.
17:00<xiong>Oh, and if you have *any* goto-depot order, anywhere in the order list, that train will never interval service.
17:00*xiong thinks no breakdowns = no fun
17:00<wargh>It shouldn't be as I thoguht of it before starting a new game with these settings. I don't use that kind of order. Probably I just didn't wait long enough
17:01<xiong>Certainly, no breakdowns make it tougher to see when your trains aren't servicing regularly.
17:01<wargh>I don't think I have used breakdowns since I played the original TTD
17:01<wargh>It's a hassle when you have loads of trains on a single track.
17:02<xiong>Where's the challenge, I say? With no breakdowns it's possible to build a near-perfect network; you can synchronize the movement of each train until it's just one big train going around.
17:02<wargh>I like the challenge of trying to have as much traffic as possible through my networks before starting to add more tracks
17:02<xiong>Breakdowns force you to be fault-tolerant. That's not much of a sophisticated statement but there it is.
17:03<wargh>Yeah I understand the extra dimension it puts on your networking
17:04<Regiovogel>uh, it's a bit late. time to go to bed. i'd like to thank you all for the nice evening
17:04<xiong>I guess I link 'no breakdowns' to a certain style of programming in which errors are not anticipated or tolerated; there is no chance to recover from an error, etc.
17:04<Regiovogel>good night!
17:04<xiong>Regiovogel, Good morning!
17:04<wargh>I guess I have a somewhat different playstyle compared to many ppl here. For example I use AI competition as they make it harder to build furhter into the game
17:04<Regiovogel>doog morning? how late is it? ;)
17:04<Regiovogel>err, good, not doog... (too late!)
17:05<xiong>wargh, AI play is serious stuff. I didn't realize how tough until I beat several of them... and they came back. It's not actually possible to eliminate competition, I think.
17:05<Regiovogel>my clock says it's 11 o'clock in the evening ;)
17:05<@Terkhen>good night Regiovogel
17:05<xiong>Mine says 2:05 pm!
17:05<Markk>10:05 PM here.
17:05<xiong>... which for me, is morning.
17:06<Regiovogel>uh, 2:05 pm would be nice. then it would be only three hours until i could code a bit more...
17:06<xiong>In fact, /me thinks coffee.
17:08<Regiovogel>so... good night everyone (or something like that :))
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17:08<wargh>xiong: I never try to eliminate the AI. Or well, sometimes I don't build bridges over their roads so my trains sometimes crash their trucks.
17:09<wargh>I want them to get money to build as much as possible.
17:09<wargh>But sure I still build at some of the same industries
17:10<wargh>And I always use default trainlenght, I guess that might not be usual, and only one train engine.
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17:12<xiong>Hm. I have built tiny circles of track across roads heavily frequented by AI trucks and run single engines with no orders for the express purpose of crashing as many as possible.
17:13<xiong>Do this far enough from town and there are no repercussions. :P
17:14<xiong>On another note: I'm starting to find it easier to doze something and build again, rather than try to fix it.
17:15<wargh>Yes is it, but it's no fun. :)
17:15<wargh>I start with a basic rout, and then I add track/trains to it until it gets full
17:16<wargh>And often the computer makes it hard to add new tracks
17:16<wargh>So then I really need to start thinking how to rearrange my tracks on the space I already use
17:17<wargh>This I find really fun and challenging and it's really satisfying when I get the traffic to flow smooth again
17:17<wargh>This game can be played in so many ways so I guess we all find our own flavours and rules to play by. :)
17:18<wargh>I just started playing OpenTTD. I used to play TTDpatch for several yeas a few years ago. So a few of the things that made it easier to build in ttd I didn't really like, like the posibility to build a bridge over and in the same dirrection as a road. I felt it made it to easy
17:21<wargh>And when I randomise my maps I want them as hilly and ruff as possible, and with as much water as possible. To make it harder to build. :)
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17:23<Rubidium>wargh: then disable building on slopes ;)
17:25<wargh>That one I actually like. :)
17:25<wargh>It was in TTDpatch also
17:26<wargh>I guess I set my standard a bit after that patch. It can still get really hard sometimes even with the better building of tracks on openttd
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17:29<wargh>I don't think I've used the option to build bridges over existing roads/railways. (for more than one square)
17:30<wargh>Might be some exception somewhere that I haven't thought about when I build it
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17:38<xiong>Please tell me how to disable the prototype offers. I *never* accept them and they are quite distracting.
17:40<valhalla2w>check the news settings dialog
17:42*xiong looks
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17:44<xiong>Nope. Messages for new vehicles; but that's when they're in production. The prototype offers aren't presented as news or messages, you know, but in the form of an interactive dialog that you must dismiss with either Yes or No.
17:44*dihedral greets the valhalla2w
17:44<dihedral>xiong, it is offering you that vehicle for a year before other companies can access the vehicle
17:44<dihedral>that is not a setting to be disabled!
17:44<xiong>... which is one reason I find them so distracting; another being that they pop up in the middle of the screen and obstruct my view, often aborting a tricky track placement.
17:45<dihedral>what on earth is a 'tricky' track placement
17:45<dihedral>you place a track in one of possible 4 directions! there is nothing tricky about it
17:46<dihedral>sorry - i am being nasty again, i did not mean to :-)
17:48<valhalla2w>hi dihedral
17:48<valhalla2w>xiong: hm, strange, I thought there was a way to switch it off. sorry
17:48-!-valhalla2w is now known as valhallasw
17:49<xiong>I don't know why these offers are made or why anyone would want them. I've heard that if you accept, then after the vehicle enters production it will be more reliable. I haven't found that.
17:49<wargh>I would like an option that's somewhere in between "Vehicles expire" On/Off. Because I hate having old trains staying in my list forever but at the same time I don't switch old track for monoral/Maglev so I want to be able to keep using Asiastar forever. Sure I can have expire on until very late game and set it to never when only Asiastar is avaliable.
17:50<wargh>But it still dissapeared in the autoreplace window at 2079 or something like that. :/
17:50<xiong>I've also heard that if you accept such an offer and then don't take advantage of it, you'll get fewer such in future. Haven't found that, either; I am always offered a prototype of every new vehicle.
17:51<dihedral>is this a single player game?
17:54<TruePikachu>xiong: RE offers from the company, I've seen that, if you accept an offer and do not utilize it, you will not recieve any new offers for 20 months
17:54<TruePikachu>You have 12 months to utilize it
17:54<dihedral>yay - now 2 experts have found eachother :-P
17:55<@Yexo>then after the vehicle enters production it will be more reliable. I haven't found that. <- the vehicle is less reliable in the first year
17:55<TruePikachu>And, if you get it early, the reliability is reduce FOR THAT YEAR BEFORE OTHER COMPANIES CAN GET IT
17:55<xiong>TruePikachu, I heard that. But it doesn't seem to work that way, sorry.
17:55<@Yexo>after a year it'll always have the same reliability, doesn't matter whether or not you accept the offer
17:56<TruePikachu>And all these statements RE reliability are per normal sets - NewGRFs can change it all they want
17:56<xiong>Also, I just don't see the point, again, sorry.
17:56<dihedral>only ever trust the code - not what 'people' tell you
17:56<dihedral>or trust the developers and others who know the code :-P
17:57<TruePikachu>And I'm just quoting from the forums
17:57<xiong>Well, there you go. I'm playing NARS and all sorts of funky road vehicle sets. These may just ignore whatever prototype action.
17:57<xiong>I just want to turn it off.
17:57<TruePikachu>NARSv2 will follow
17:57<TruePikachu>eGRVTS also follows (name?)
17:57<xiong>TruePikachu, Again, I'm very sorry; I don't like to contradict but not for me.
17:58<TruePikachu>What are the parameters you're using on NARS?
17:58<TruePikachu>I don't think they would mess it up, but just in case
17:58<TruePikachu>Better yet, a savegame would be nice
17:58<xiong>If I accept and don't use, I still get offers. If I don't accept, I still get offers. If I accept and use, I don't get any improvement -- not that I'm able to notice. No benefit whatever.
17:58<TruePikachu>And what version of OpenTTD is this?
17:59<wargh>Considering ppls different taste it's a miracle that ppl can play this game in multiplayer and found the settings to be satisfying. :)
17:59<xiong>NARS 2.03; number of params: 0
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18:01<xiong>TruePikachu, I could drag the community through a savegame but what's the point? If prototypes had, for me, all the advertised behavior, I still wouldn't want the offers made. No offense. I just don't see the point. The vehicles are useless; I wouldn't hazard them on the layout. This is a philosophical point, or anyway a playing style.
18:01<TruePikachu>Latest nightly is r22070, see if you still have the problem there
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18:01<TruePikachu>Savegames store more than just the map; they also save all (even hidden) settings.
18:01<xiong>TruePikachu, Dunno if I'm up to downloading and installing all over again. Certainly not right now; I gotta go to work soon.
18:02<TruePikachu>Well, just leave us with the savegame, and we'll take a look at it
18:02<xiong>I know you're interested in why I'm not seeing what you're describing.
18:02<xiong>Well, where do you want it?
18:02<TruePikachu>Wait - have you modified the NewGRF list in-game?
18:02<xiong>No. I don't do that.
18:02<TruePikachu>xiong: You can just toss it up on the Forums
18:03<TruePikachu>Make sure it's the right place
18:03<xiong>I never change anything in a running game. Or, at least, I never did until Yexo mentioned the go-to-depot penalty.
18:03<xiong>Where's the right place?
18:03<TruePikachu>Probablly OpenTTD -> Bugs
18:03<TruePikachu>Not the flyspray, though
18:04<dihedral>ignore TruePika* all
18:04*TruePikachu doesn't have the forums open right now
18:04<xiong>Look, I don't even know how to write this up.
18:05<xiong>Board index » OpenTTD » OpenTTD Problems
18:08<TruePikachu>Say that you aren't getting behaviour from the manufacturers as indicated from (there is a description of the 20 months and such there)
18:08<TruePikachu>From planetmaker, no less
18:09<TruePikachu>Specifically, post
18:09<xiong>Ahhh! I've already picked a spot.
18:09<TruePikachu>No, not for a spot
18:10<TruePikachu>An overview of what you aren't getting
18:10<TruePikachu>(in your game)
18:11<TruePikachu>Yay for having bookmarked that one thread :D
18:16<TruePikachu>Just read the backlog, and the thread I linked is coincidentially the polar opposite of your feature request here
18:17<@Terkhen>good night
18:18<xiong>Well, I'm not going to double-post. Anyway, I gotta hop in the shower and unstinky. People take note of that, you know.
18:19<dihedral>good night Terkhen
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18:25<TruePikachu>xiong: For future reference, there is an edit function in the tt-forums
18:26<TruePikachu>I know of some forums that don't have such a function, so it is lucky that this one has it
18:27<wargh>This game is dangerous. I've been stuck for 5 hours in a row.
18:28<Markk>I've been playing it since 2005 now.
18:28<wargh>I don't really know when I started but I've hand a break for maybe two years.
18:29<Markk>That's nice when you rediscover things.
18:29<ccfreak2k>Forums without the ability to edit your own posts are terrible forums.
18:29<wargh>I was just to lazy to try and get ttdpatch to work when I upgraded my OS: :P
18:29<ccfreak2k>There are also some forums (many?) that only allow you to edit your post if there aren't any other posts after it.
18:30<Markk>That's quite common imo.
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18:33<wargh>Mauve is a bad color to use for ones company. It's hard to see against the gray charts. :)
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19:28<@SmatZ>I am confused by the situation in Egypt...
19:28<@SmatZ>now all media say how great it is Mubarak is gone
19:29<@SmatZ>but in the past, I have never heard anything bad about him
19:29<@SmatZ>furthermore, wasn't he supporting Israel?
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19:30<@SmatZ>does that mean the mood is against Israel now?
19:30<@SmatZ>I have to say... I am confused by media
19:30<@SmatZ>if that situation was is, say, Libya... I would understand that
19:31<@SmatZ>but why is Mubarak so bad now? and the protestants are so pro-democratic? was there Mubarak's despotism or what? ...
19:32<ccfreak2k>Mubarak was always bad.
19:33<ccfreak2k>It's just now the media is telling you that.
19:33<@SmatZ>what was bad about him?
19:33<ccfreak2k>Wrt. Israel: there's some border tension.
19:34<@SmatZ>sorry I have to go now :(
19:34<__ln__>I'm surprised Israel didn't move the border already.
19:34<@SmatZ>thanks for the answer though :)
19:35<ccfreak2k>Well IIRC Israel is laying claim on some territory that another adjacent country has, I forgot who.
19:39<ccfreak2k>Some bordering stuff.
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19:49<wargh>You never heard much bad about Egypt since Mubarak was best friends with US =)
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21:10<supermop>good evening
21:16<__ln__>shhhhhhhh, everyone's sleeping
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22:00<Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: stop requesting bad features all the time :-P <-- what did i do now?
22:01<ccfreak2k>Requested a bad feature, I would guess.
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22:14<Filter>Hey all!
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>i understand the not-turning-around thing may be annoying at first, but i'm convinced it'll work out better in the long run. plus it was actually MB's request. i just did a bug report!
22:15<supermop>what did you request?
22:15<Eddi|zuHause>and what the hell is a pbs workaround for terminus stations?
22:16<Filter>I have a question, I've been looking through forums & google but can't find an answer - I'm looking to edit some constants, and since I'm running ubuntu, I have no openttd.cfg, and I was wondering what file to edit in ubuntu
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't you have an openttd.cfg in ubuntu?
22:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's usually in ~/.openttd
22:19<Filter>hmm.. hidden? thanks! brb and report :)
22:20<Eddi|zuHause>that is standard practice on linux
22:21<Filter>yep, thanks for that, it's there..
22:21<Filter>i'm loving this game a bit too much ;)
22:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's more common than you think :p
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 14 00:00:04 2011