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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-14

---Logopened Mon Feb 14 00:00:05 2011
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01:38<TruePikachu>OpenTTD just made me want to configure KDE so that scroll wheel on a title bar does shading :)
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01:42<TruePikachu>Lol, working on setting up Linux for my Wii...
01:43<TruePikachu>Install instructions for Linux-based PCs use "sudo" at the start of nearly every command, so I "su"'d into root to save keystrokes
01:43<TruePikachu>I swear, I typed "sudo tar -C ..." at root level!
01:45*TruePikachu wonders if he could get OTTD Dedicated server running...on Wii
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01:49<TruePikachu>?
01:49<TruePikachu>I just extracted a nonempty /dev directory to SD
01:49<TruePikachu>How can an SD card supply a Wii with new devices other than a block IO?
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02:02<@planetmaker>moin
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03:12<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:41<@planetmaker>hm, can I define two ground sprites in the same tile layout?
03:43<@Yexo>yes, the second one has to be a childsprite though
03:45<@planetmaker>ok, so quite feasable. Nice :-)
03:45<@planetmaker>it should always be done that way ;-)
03:46<@planetmaker>though it might be nice to have OpenTTD always draw the default ground tile actually. Or introduce a NewGRF flag which says 'draw always default ground tile'
03:46<@planetmaker>it could reduce many action2 sequences
03:46<@planetmaker>one would only need to test snow yes/no
03:47<@planetmaker>and then supply the proper overlay graphics
03:47<@planetmaker>and not care about ground
03:47<@planetmaker>hmm... :-)
03:47<@Yexo>in C++ it's even easier, just an extra call to DrawGround
03:47<@planetmaker>unconditionally?
03:48<@Yexo>yes, if the newgrf also provides a ground sprite it'll overwrite the one drawn by openttd, if it doesn't the one drawn by openttd is shown
03:48<@planetmaker>It could change how newgrfs are made
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03:48<@Yexo>"drawn by openttd" = the default sprite drawn underneath any graphics the newgrf provides
03:48<@planetmaker>overwrite as in replace or as in draw on top
03:48<@planetmaker>drawn on top
03:48<@Yexo>draw on top
03:48<@planetmaker>it'll save A LOT
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03:52<@Yexo>isn't something like what is already done for objects enough?
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03:53<@Yexo>if the newgrf provides the basic bare land sprite as groundsprite, openttd will automatically convert it to the correct slope
03:54<@planetmaker>I don't know... how does that work exactly?
03:54<@Yexo>object_cmd.cpp:335
03:56<@planetmaker>hm, not sure it worked for my wind turbine. I supplied GROUNDTILE_NORMAL there and the slope was not respected
03:56<@planetmaker>or what do you mean?
03:56<@Yexo>did you set the "object has no foundation" flag?
03:56<@planetmaker>but if it would - and if it would also draw the correct snow/normal/desert/rain forest without me bothering about - nice
03:56<@planetmaker>yes
03:57<@Yexo>it doesn't respect snow/desert, and for snow/desert you'll also have to provide the slope yourself
03:58<@planetmaker>that's why it'll be nice to have the usual ground tile drawn no matter what
03:58<@planetmaker>no landscape checks needed then
03:58<@planetmaker>unless you want specific awareness
03:58<@Yexo>if you draw any building you still have to check for snow
03:58<@planetmaker>yes
03:58<@Yexo>also for offsets you might need to check the slope anyway
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03:59<@planetmaker>I might, unless I autoslope
03:59<@planetmaker>though.. probably even then
04:00<@planetmaker>but actually then I don't understand the wind turbin's behaviour. The slope is not maintained
04:00<@planetmaker>and I added the slope check as it failed for slopes
04:00<@Yexo>oh, sorry
04:01<@Yexo>that special behavior is only for the default objects
04:01<@Yexo>for newgrf objects you'll have to check the slopes in the newgrf
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04:05<dihedral>good morning
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04:07<@planetmaker>well... slope awareness is also - due to the offset issue - not easy and probably hardly feasable in an automatic way
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04:08<@planetmaker>moin dihedral
04:08<@planetmaker>but the automatic ground tile (which could lead to 'I supply no usable ground tile') makes sense IMHO
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04:08<@planetmaker>for industries, objects and houses alike
04:09<@planetmaker>'not usable' = 'transparent' or whatever
04:10<@planetmaker>it could also make sense for tiles like these of george's industries with the sheep: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177&start=480
04:11<@planetmaker>one would just not care about slopes there ;-)
04:11<@planetmaker>or not much
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04:13<dihedral>SmatZ, "happy valintines day" <- with greetings from Karen_ :-P
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04:56<xiong>Erm, FIRS question. It's a bit unclear what's meant by "if delivered together", to get increased production from a secondary industry. Is it sufficient that 1 ton/crate of X be delivered in the same month as any quantity of Y? Or must X and Y be delivered in some correct proportions?
05:10<V453000>1 ton/crate, afaik
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05:29<Alpaca>Please may I ask a question?
05:30<V453000>Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:30<Alpaca>I couldn't resist, sorry :p
05:30<V453000>alright, where is the question? :)
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05:31<Alpaca>right, I was playing a 2048x2048 tropical map with about 250 towns, and i found that my cities just stopped growing. The world population didn't exceed 711,000. Is there a world population limit?
05:31<Alpaca>1.0.5
05:31<V453000>no
05:32<V453000>we had even over 3 millions :)
05:32<V453000>so if there is a limit, it definitely is not the one you met
05:32<Alpaca>once I demolished towns across the rest of the world, my towns grew again immediately
05:32<V453000>did the towns have enough roads, did they get food And water when in desert, and have you had town_growth_rate greater than zero?
05:32<Mazur>2.7 milion now.
05:33<Mazur>3.7, I mean.
05:33<V453000>:p
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05:33<Mazur>Couple of hours runtime and we hit the 4.
05:33<Alpaca>town growth speed was on very fast (or fast), plenty of food and water regularly, regular tram services and the entire continent was on a 2x2 road grid
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05:34<V453000>Alpaca: got savegame for me ? :)
05:34<Alpaca>i'll sort one out for you
05:35<Mazur>And me.
05:35<Mazur>;-)
05:35<Alpaca>it's got a bunch of grfs in it, av8, 2cc, eGRVTS
05:36<V453000>we have those ;)
05:36<Alpaca>you are good people
05:36<Alpaca>http://www.commiellama.co.uk/temp/ttdsave1.rar
05:36<Mazur>Gotta catch them all.
05:36<Alpaca>thanks for having a look :)
05:36<@planetmaker>there's no need to compress savegames
05:36<Mazur>My pleasure.
05:36<@planetmaker>they are already compressed
05:36<Alpaca>the area in question is australia
05:37<@planetmaker>compressing them makes it not better
05:37<@planetmaker>the compression algorithm used in 1.1 is actually quite better than rar ;-)
05:37<@planetmaker>(unless you modified your default savegame format)
05:38<Alpaca>I once uploaded a map file for HL2 and it is actually text based, so the link opened in the browser with a text file of co-ordinates
05:38<Alpaca>i rar'd everything after that event
05:38<@planetmaker>rar is not very common nor efficient ;-)
05:38<Alpaca>i like to be special
05:38<V453000>error in packed file
05:38<V453000>cant open it
05:38<Mazur>I have it running.
05:39<@planetmaker>^^ very special hahaha :-)
05:39<V453000>hmf :o
05:39<@planetmaker>see what I mean, Alpaca ?
05:39<Alpaca>i'm re-uploading in .sav
05:39<@planetmaker>you want help - make it easy for others to help. Or don't get help. Easy peasy
05:40<Alpaca>ok, http://www.commiellama.co.uk/temp/ttdsave1.sav
05:40<Mazur>You're not transporting a single soul in your largest city, is hat intentional?
05:40<Mazur>that?
05:40<V453000>my download just failed, nothing easier could be done from his side ;)
05:41<Alpaca>yeah, we weren't really going for profit, we wanted to fill the continent and I wouldn't be bothered to tackle meekatharra
05:42<V453000>towns grow when passengers are transported
05:42<V453000>otherwise they grow very slowly
05:42<@planetmaker>not really...
05:42<@planetmaker>you just need 5 well serviced stations within the town's perimeter
05:43<@planetmaker>whatever you transport there - doesn't matter
05:43<Mazur>http://53551A99.cm-6-6a.dynamic.ziggo.nl/wwww/docs/AJ World 3 Aus 1935-2043.sav
05:43<Alpaca>everything was growing nicely until world population of 711k, then everything completely stopped. as soon as I demolished towns in the rest of the world, growth spurted immediately
05:43<V453000>srsly? :o
05:43<Mazur>In case the hiccup is at his end.
05:43<@planetmaker>a bit ago I checked, but I'm confident, V453000 :-)
05:43<V453000>ok :)
05:43<@planetmaker>wrt city growth: towns increasingly grow slower the larger they become
05:43<Mazur>planetmaker, perimeter or heart?
05:44<V453000>we never grow towns without transporting passengers, so ...
05:44<@planetmaker>Mazur, within the town. Check the tiles which belong to a town
05:44<@planetmaker>the town perimeter (radius) is a function of its size
05:45<Mazur>k
05:45<Rubidium>maybe it's using a house NewGRF that limits some houses to X per map?
05:45<Rubidium>that would make houses much harder to build, and as such it won't really grow anymore
05:45<V453000>no house newgrfs
05:46<Mazur>No, I'm betting the 5 stations per town isn;t reached.
05:46<Mazur>Australian map, so plenty towns, only 99 stations.
05:47<Mazur>World map, actually, Australian start.
05:47<Alpaca>meekatharra was the quickest place to grow, never delivered a single passenger and only imported food and water for it
05:47<Mazur>Only Australia build up.
05:47<Alpaca>whilst im here, what do you guys think of the map?
05:48<Mazur>Impressive.
05:48<Mazur>Quick and dirty reaction.
05:48<Mazur>Not studied it.
05:49<Alpaca>I didn't take care in choosing town names, just used the first think I spotted in google earth, so some towns I featured are in fact tiny nowhere-villes
05:49<Alpaca>thing*
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05:52<V453000>too large map for me :) without a real reason imo :)
05:53<Alpaca>so much to do, so little brainpower!
05:53<Alpaca>it makes a nice change to do smaller random maps, gives me more focus
05:56<Mazur>Rubber plantation at Reykjavik. That's certainly novel.
05:57<Alpaca>yeah, and minimal water in europe but billions of tons of water in the sahara
05:57<Mazur>The Sahara used to be smaller.
05:57<Mazur>But that was half a century ago.
05:58<Mazur>Before man won the war on tropical plantlife.
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07:05<DanMacK>Hey all
07:07<@planetmaker>salut DanMacK & andythenorth
07:08*andythenorth back to work
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07:21<xiong>V453000, Thank you. (Just now read your reply.) Then I will concentrate on doling out small amounts of cargo to secondaries. This strat has worked very well for eng/farm supp to primaries.
07:22<V453000>for sure
07:22<V453000>I myself make a transfer at each supply drop and then create a tiny train that arrives every ~20 days
07:22<V453000>but do not count on it in the future, that behaviour will be changed
07:22<xiong>The matter becomes critical in the case of the Steel Mill, which is advertised to perform better "if two or more" are delivered in the same month.
07:22<xiong>Changed? To what?
07:23<V453000>yes, you can make some special train that delivers coal/iron ore/scrap the same way
07:23<V453000>that it will also matter how much supplies you deliver
07:23<xiong>I assume that in the case of the Steel Mill, all 3 cargos in the same month will give me the best performance.
07:23<V453000>not entirely sure how will it look yet
07:23<V453000>not only that, but also a steady metal production, which is quite important
07:24<xiong>Well, that's the other possibility, that I considered: Cargoes X and Y (or X, Y, Z) must be delivered in specified proportions to achieve maximum output.
07:24<V453000>no, that would be stupid :)
07:24<xiong>??
07:24<V453000>requiring all cargoes to be delivered
07:25<xiong>The Steel Mill is a special case. Let's just consider the Lime Kiln. You cannot expect to get any output out of a real LK if you only deliver coal; you must supply stone, too. The process requires some amount of both materials and an excess of one or the other is generally wasted.
07:26<V453000>yes, that is the realistic point of view
07:26<V453000>gameplay wise, it is totally stupid to require any amount of anything in a ratio to something else
07:27<xiong>Well then, you'd better stick with "a pinch of X and a trainload of Y is okay".
07:28<xiong>I don't see a rational middle ground.
07:28<V453000>simply: ECS is the prime example of going by realism
07:28<xiong>Never played ECS, sorry.
07:28<V453000>and FIRS shall not be the same fail :)
07:28<V453000>it is a overly messy and chaotic megachain of industries
07:29<V453000>reaching total unplayability even with the most playable settings
07:29<xiong>Well, I'll say, I'll be quite unhappy if the current behavior is significantly changed. I'm only now getting it figured out as it is.
07:30<xiong>I'm delighted with my system of transferring, by train, medium-size loads of engs and running a loop truck to load/unload a few crates per month.
07:31<xiong>At first, I thought to deliver to an auxiliary station and loop from it to the main station. But transferred cargo is not consumed by accepting industries! Which makes my current strat clean and elegant.
07:31<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2296 this is my proposal, and probably also something at least every similar to the final thing
07:32*Rubidium envisions a day with cargo destinations and (NewGRF) industries being able to tell how much (relatively) cargo they need for optimum production, and then cargo destinations trying to aim for optimal ranges to each industry
07:33<@peter1138>actual supply & demand
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07:34<xiong>V453000, Well, I read that, not thoroughly but I do read very quickly. Doesn't sound too bad; the effect would be the same as currently for new industries.
07:34<xiong>You seem only interested in primaries in that post, though.
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07:35<V453000>secondaries should remain as they are
07:35<xiong>You mean, a pinch and a trainload? Really unrealistic.
07:36<xiong>I mean, I don't care; I'm happy with things as they are.
07:36<V453000>realism reaches nothing
07:37<xiong>But if you're going to toggle the primaries around, why not the secondaries, too? Insist that secondaries be fully supplied, or at least better supplied than ramming thousands of tons of Y in, in the same month as 1 crate of X.
07:37<xiong>Well, that's a viewpoint. I'm not a realism fanatic. But I do use it as a yardstick. If something is like the prototype, then it may be reasonable; if it is unlike, it may not be.
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07:38<xiong>I don't have an issue with my little loop trucks. Realistically, an industry would not insist on monthly delivery; if that were important, the railroad could simply build a warehouse at the station.
07:39<V453000>I think the way secondaries work is the best one you could get
07:39<V453000>all others seem to be just odd to me
07:39<xiong>So, I'm using an unrealistic solution to cover an unrealistic demand. I'm okay with that. But if you're going to fill in the cracks, I don't know what other guide you can use.
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07:40<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22076 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r22075): build failed with GCC
07:40<xiong>My viewpoint probably stems from HO gauge modeling. You make realistic what you can and stuff the rest out of sight as much as possible, and live with the rest.
07:41<V453000>this is a game :) and making a good newGRF means it has to be perfectly playable
07:41<xiong>There's a limit; you work as closely as you can to that. But it's just crazy to flip out over the inside of a tunnel.
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07:42<xiong>Playable? Dunno; I find FIRS plenty playable now. I'm not sure how you think you're going to improve it, I mean, drastically.
07:43<xiong>... and I'm told I'm not even playing the current release. I gather that if I upgrade, I'll get Sugar Refineries that aren't green blocks.
07:43<xiong>I'd rather see somebody work on ISRS a little, so that all the various FIRS cargoes would have decent platform support. It sucks to have bare platforms.
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07:44<V453000>DWE supports FIRS and is compatible with ISR
07:45<@planetmaker>V453000, but FIRS does not *require* a ratio
07:46<V453000>I did not say it does :)
07:46<V453000>I also said it _would_ be stupid :)
07:46<@planetmaker>it just encourages a certain ratio - which makes somewhat sense and is indeed step up in complexity or difficulty - hehe yeah
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07:48<V453000>yes, which is the best way of doing it imo:)
07:50<@planetmaker>yeah
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07:56<TGYoshi>haiii xD
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09:06<DanMacK>WB andy
09:14<@Belugas>hello
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09:45<DanMacK>Hey Lakie
09:45<Lakie>Hi DanMacK
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11:13<TGYoshi>Silent here xd
11:15<Alpaca>No time for chat, there are rail to lay!
11:16<TGYoshi>lol &&
11:17<Alpaca>are you yoshi from luukland?
11:19<TGYoshi>yes
11:19<TGYoshi>and I keep failing there ^^
11:19<TGYoshi>On multiplayer I really never know a good start
11:19<TGYoshi>especially because there's no fast forward -.-
11:19<Alpaca>start with coal is usually the way to go
11:20<Alpaca>that's valuable, and it sets a good income to then do other ventures
11:20<TGYoshi>indeed
11:20<Alpaca>and coal doesn't depreciate quickly, so you can take it far and earn high income
11:20<TGYoshi>But at the begin I just have 200k money
11:21<TGYoshi>It's so important to know how to build your first rail
11:25<Alpaca>i usually go singletrack with a few passing points when I can afford more trains
11:25<Alpaca>it's a cheaper start, and then finish doing double track when I have the money
11:25<Alpaca>avoid farmland
11:25<TGYoshi>lol indeed xD
11:29<TGYoshi>need a game restart now :p
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11:43<IchGuckLive>Hi all,I tryd to grep a scenario but all servers from German Scenarios are down !!
11:44<IchGuckLive>is there a gereal server where the scanios are stored from the wiki side ?
11:44<Ammler>bananas
11:44<dihedral>laters
11:45-!-ZirconiumX [561b9bc6@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
11:47<IchGuckLive>http://wiki.openttd.org/Scenarios_Based_on_Real_World#Germany
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11:48<Wolf01>evening
11:49<IchGuckLive>illeagel websites has been uploadet from meber of your request ,this member has been band from our servers it the issue why the scn from wiki arent available
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11:50<IchGuckLive>so in this case someone shoudt remove the German scearios from the Wiki
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11:53<SpComb>external links :(
11:54<IchGuckLive>O.o
11:55<IchGuckLive>did someone backup this files ?
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11:59<Wolf01>what happened?
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12:02<SpComb>the wiki page with scenarios is full of broken links
12:08<Wolf01>gah, half of web gives timeout, I have a really high ping :E
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12:15<lugo>Wolf01, just out of curiosity, is there any progress on NADP? :)
12:15<Prof_Frink>Good evenwiggle
12:15<Wolf01>no, people doesn't look interestes (apart you now) so I drop the development
12:15<Wolf01>*interested
12:22<DanMacK>NADP?
12:23<DanMacK>Ahh I've been following it
12:24<lugo>ah that's sad, i reckon there's no daylength-patch around, besides yours, which cleanly applies to trunk (not cargodist) right now, is there?
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12:41<TGYoshi>blub
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13:01*DanMacK wonders if capacity can be altered from "Tons"
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13:14<dihedral>DanMacK, to what?
13:19<DanMacK>Kilos or something... (just a thought)
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13:23<dihedral>DanMacK, what for?
13:27<Rubidium>dihedral: use SI units
13:27<Rubidium>arh...
13:27<Rubidium>DanMacK: use SI units
13:28<dihedral>:-P
13:28-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
13:28<__ln__>it's not that dihedral shouldn't also use SI units
13:28*DanMacK is wondering about doing an "early era" scenario for TTD
13:29-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:29<DanMacK>for the extra sadistic among us
13:30<__ln__>DanMacK: Jurassic Tycoon?
13:30-!-Frankr [~chatzilla@78-105-193-194.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
13:31<DanMacK>not that far back ;)
13:32<@Terkhen>:D
13:32<@Terkhen>wasn't it called dino park tycoon?
13:33<DanMacK>Maybe 2000BC :P Horsecarts and small barges
13:34<__ln__>Terkhen: oh, there really is something like that
13:35<@Terkhen>__ln__: yes, I remember trying it but it was not very good
13:36<DanMacK>It was OK
13:36*DanMacK is thinking along the lines of "Trade Empires" or something similar
13:42<__ln__>http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/13/ibms-watson-supercomputer-destroys-all-humans-in-jeopardy-pract/
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22077 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: latvian - 2 changes by skazhy
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13:59<@planetmaker>hello
14:02<ABCRic>hi
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14:15<andythenorth>evenings
14:16<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:16<@planetmaker>heya andythenorth
14:18<andythenorth>frosch123: the proposal tileslope indexing looks interesting
14:18<DanMacK>Hey Andy
14:18<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22078 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4499]: maximum train length interfered with wagon replacement when wagon removal was turned on
14:18<frosch123>andythenorth: just considered it would make sense to add the option to specify a register to every item of the sprite layout
14:19<andythenorth>can you explain a bit more what it would mean in practice?
14:19<frosch123>including 7d variables
14:19<andythenorth>it sounds similar to an idea I had when I saw Yexo's FIRS patch
14:20<frosch123>it would mean to replace the "00 B Literal 0 (to distinguish this definition from random/variational lists)" with something else to detect the new format, and then add another byte resp. two bytes in case of 60+x variables to every groundsprite/buildingssprite/childsprite
14:21<frosch123>then you can add completely custom offsets to every sprite of the spritelayout
14:21<frosch123>hmm, though maybe there should also be a var-adjust
14:22<andythenorth>so this is a change to layouts?
14:22<frosch123>otoh, production callbacks only require access to normal 7d registers
14:22<andythenorth>tile action 2 remains unchanged?
14:22<frosch123>so one could do the same for the spritelayouts
14:23<frosch123>basically yes, though it causes trouble if you need very different numbers of sprites within each layout
14:23<andythenorth>my idea was dangerous
14:23<@planetmaker>frosch123: a solution which works for all, houses, airport tiles, industry tiles would be gorgous
14:23<frosch123>as the action1 can only put the same amount of sprites into one set
14:23<@planetmaker>it'd be nice if one would not need to specify a ground tile
14:23<frosch123>planetmaker: of course it would work for all
14:23<andythenorth>I wanted to introduce something to allow the real sprite ID to be a calculated reference
14:23<@planetmaker>and could just plant something
14:23<andythenorth>so instead of \dx80008003 //groundsprite
14:24<@planetmaker>I like the idea with the continuous sequence of sprites for all slopes
14:25<frosch123>planetmaker: i am not sure about default ttd sprites
14:25<frosch123>maybe it would require different sprite positions for them
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14:28<@planetmaker>frosch123: different slopes will need different offsets, sure.
14:28<@planetmaker>but the need to not draw a ground tile, will make many things easier. Among them the task to fit into both, TTD and OpenGFX landscape
14:29<frosch123>however, at least the default groundsprites are in the correct order (like 3924..3942, 3942..3961, 3962..3980, 3981..3999, ...)
14:29<@planetmaker>It could, though, be handled just the way that ground sprites become optional (they are already) - and the default ground sprite is always drawn as if nothing was built
14:29<frosch123>planetmaker: i don't want a special case for ground sprites
14:30<frosch123>if the general method works for it, it is fine
14:30<frosch123>if it does not work, one has to wonder whether it is of any use for new stuff
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14:34<@planetmaker>frosch123: just drawing the existing ground sprite no matter what can be done jointly with your suggestion
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14:34<frosch123>planetmaker: are you sure it will be in the right position?
14:34<frosch123>or maybe with some vertical offset?
14:35<@planetmaker>frosch123: what would we loose if the ground sprites are always drawn and then only the industry supplied ground sprites on top?
14:35<@planetmaker>like: draw industry on the existing landscape
14:35<frosch123>you add another special case to increase the complexity and mess
14:35<@planetmaker>no special case. Not newgrf-influenced
14:35<frosch123>it's like adding a setting to always show the full date in the status bar :)
14:36<JVassie>Hmm, anyone know when the ability to add newgrfs in the middle of a game got removed?
14:36<@planetmaker>just always draw the ground
14:36<@planetmaker>I see not where that is detrimental
14:36<@planetmaker>and where it is a 'special case'
14:36<@planetmaker>maybe I just miss something, but...
14:37<frosch123>oh, you mean like always overdrawing it
14:37<@planetmaker>yes
14:38<frosch123>i am not that sure grass is the most often case. often there is also concrete, esp. for houses
14:38<frosch123>andys forest uses 2/3 grass or similar
14:39<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22079 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix: The owner view of the smallmap was not updated after a company colour change.
14:39<andythenorth>JVassie: some time in the past
14:39<@planetmaker>well. Farms, saw mills, ...
14:39<andythenorth>JVassie certainly didn't happen in the future
14:39<@planetmaker>mines
14:39<andythenorth>what's gained by always drawing the ground?
14:39<@planetmaker>likewise for suburb houses
14:40<andythenorth>I have no case for it
14:40<andythenorth>although it would also do no harm
14:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you do. Farms, mines, ...
14:40<TGYoshi>Traaaalaaaallaaaaaa
14:40<@planetmaker>all those don't need to supply and specify a ground tile. And could also go on slope then
14:40<@planetmaker>e.g. some sheep ;-)
14:40<andythenorth>planetmaker: I guess I'm used to specifying the ground tile
14:41<andythenorth>now I know where the tile guide is in ottd docs, it's not hard :)
14:41<andythenorth>but the first time....
14:41<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I got the idea for the sand pit's houses
14:41<@planetmaker>it could then just define some overlay dirt
14:41<andythenorth>hmm
14:41<andythenorth>ground tiles arent a major trauma to me
14:41<andythenorth>but that's because I've solved it
14:42<andythenorth>using a nested system of templates and defines
14:42<andythenorth>that would be easier if not needed
14:42<@planetmaker>yes. which hides the many branches
14:42<@planetmaker>and climate-specifics. and snow-awareness
14:42<@planetmaker>is wouldn't be needed then
14:42<frosch123>planetmaker: well, you could likely add some special value, like 0, for the groundsprite, to make it draw the default grass/snow/water/...
14:42<@planetmaker>hm, that might be a good idea :-)
14:43<andythenorth>seems like if I'm checking in nfo, that could equivalently and effectively be a 'helper' in trunk?
14:43<@planetmaker>andythenorth: my point ;-)
14:43<andythenorth>it's not particularly grf specific magic
14:43<frosch123>we already have something simliar with drawing canal sprites when the groundtile is the plani water sprite
14:43<andythenorth>it just imposes extra coding
14:44<@planetmaker>yes. Tedious, error prone and boring one at that
14:44<@planetmaker>especially boring
14:44<@planetmaker>and often-desired
14:44<andythenorth>but I'd still need to branch for snow / not snow
14:44<@planetmaker>yes. that's 2 cases. Not 4 or maybe more
14:44<andythenorth>I wish the actual real sprite ID could be the result of a procedure call
14:45<andythenorth>then the number of action 2s is reduced
14:45<andythenorth>I have solved it with templating, but it makes it more complicated to maintain
14:45<@planetmaker>I think that's what frosch kinda suggested earlier bfore I joined the discussion on a tangent ;-)
14:46<andythenorth>sprite order, bounding box + offsets seem like structure
14:46<andythenorth>actual real sprite to use seems like content
14:46<andythenorth>repeating structure seems unnecessary
14:47<andythenorth>only the content needs to change
14:47<andythenorth>but I can't see how it would be done
14:47<andythenorth>using a varaction 2 that returns a realsprite ID looks impossible
14:48<frosch123>i'll write something down (as usual without implementing it :p )
14:48<andythenorth>I can't make sense of it quite
14:48<andythenorth>I know what makes sense to author
14:48<andythenorth>but not the implementation
14:49<andythenorth>I ran into the same issue with animation
14:49<andythenorth>making and maintaining animation tiles is a serious chore
14:50<@planetmaker>he... good point, frosch123 ^ - same concept could probably be applied there, too
14:52<CIA-11>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22080 /trunk/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Add doxygen comments to a few functions and improve a few existing comments
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15:16<CIA-11>OpenTTD: glx * r22081 /trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp: -Fix [FS#4489]: if fullscreen fails with current resolution, use desktop resolution
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15:20<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22082 /branches/1.1/: [1.1] -Branch: for the 1.1 series
15:20<Prof_Frink>:o
15:21<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22083 /trunk/ (12 files in 10 dirs): -Change: trunk is heading towards 1.2 now
15:25<dihedral>\o/
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15:32<JVassie><andythenorth> JVassie: some time in the past
15:32<JVassie><planetmaker> well. Farms, saw mills, ...
15:32<JVassie><andythenorth> JVassie certainly didn't happen in the future
15:32<JVassie>how silly :(
15:33<@planetmaker>this quote seems silly to me
15:33*dihedral nods
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15:34<JVassie>is there any way at all to change .grf's in a game that has been started now?
15:35<andythenorth>JVassie: why do you want to?
15:35<andythenorth>(you and lots of other people it seems)
15:35<@planetmaker>JVassie: if you just started a game: create a new one. No problem
15:36<@planetmaker>If you want to modify an old savegame: is and has been always a bad idea. Don't do it
15:36<Rubidium>knive... no.... spoon..... no....... fork! ;)
15:36<@planetmaker>:-)
15:37<dihedral>laidles :-P
15:37<@Belugas>"Eating with a spoon.. They don't give you knives?"
15:39<@planetmaker>crazy? Yes. Stupid? No ;-)
15:40<@Belugas>Peter Gabriel - Family snapshot
15:40<@Belugas>i thnk...
15:40<JVassie>planetmaker, i had an old version of URKS addon
15:40<JVassie>i now have the new version
15:41<JVassie>i have no trains of the old grf
15:41<JVassie>active
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15:42<@planetmaker>still dangerous. It could disable your industry newgrf.
15:42<@planetmaker>theoretically
15:42<JVassie>:sigh:
15:43<JVassie>Peter Gabriel - The Book of Love
15:43<@planetmaker>and when you don't have trains... then you can start anew as well
15:43<andythenorth>JVassie: there is a way
15:44<andythenorth>JVassie: use this http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Debugging
15:44-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has joined #openttd
15:44<andythenorth>but if you then report *any* bugs, dihedral will cut your fingers off
15:44<andythenorth>rightly or wrongly
15:45<andythenorth>that's the price of entry
15:45<JVassie>i dont report bugs in general
15:45<JVassie>xD
15:45<andythenorth>how helpful :P
15:45<JVassie>i dont tend to fidn any
15:45<JVassie>it more tends to be removed features
15:45<JVassie>liek changing newgrfs midgame
15:45<JVassie>:D
15:45<@planetmaker>it has never been a feature
15:46<andythenorth>it was definitely a misfeature
15:46<@planetmaker>:-D
15:46<JVassie>same difference
15:46<JVassie>;)
15:46<@planetmaker>maybe I should start to use that word, too
15:46<dihedral>not just report bugs
15:46<dihedral>a simple thread "my game crashed" ....
15:47<JVassie>ive been around too long to post silly threads like that
15:47<@planetmaker>also not the problem. But people then generally are not knowledgable enough of what is the result of their raping the savegame and what is a genuine bug
15:47<dihedral>:-P
15:47<JVassie>will be 10 years end of 2012
15:47<JVassie>:x
15:47-!-valhalla1w [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:47<dihedral>"raping the savegame" :-D
15:47<dihedral>i like that one :-P
15:49<JVassie>NewGRF debuggign doesnt look helpful :s
15:49<JVassie>ah never mind
15:50<dihedral>what use does that developer tool have if everybody disregards the warnings and fiddles with that setting?
15:51<JVassie>actually dotn never mind
15:51<@Belugas>make it just a bit more tedious? meaning yu really have to do it in orider to do it
15:51<JVassie>*dont
15:51<@Belugas>-orider + order
15:51<@planetmaker>dihedral: like this: http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5100&pid=71010#pid71010 <-- I so laughed when I saw that
15:52<@planetmaker>look at the time of the quotations
15:52<@planetmaker>8 hours and everything forgotten
15:52<@planetmaker>and "I never ever will..."
15:53<dihedral>those people just make me mad
15:53<andythenorth>my german is not so good :[
15:54<dihedral>they want to tamper with everything and have no clue what they do - they want "undo" buttons and patented shortcuts ....
15:54<@planetmaker>andy: 10am: "I never will report anything related to newgrf messing". 6pm: "I've a problem with the savegame when I updated it from ECS 0.6 to ECS 1.0"
15:55<andythenorth>ah
15:55<andythenorth>ho well
15:55<dihedral>i'd not even tell users about the setting to be honest
15:55<@planetmaker>I don't ;-)
15:55<dihedral>in fact, i'd remove the setting from anything but special builds
15:55<Rubidium>dihedral: just tell them to fork OpenTTD if they don't like the change
15:56<dihedral>fork or f*ck :-P
15:56<dihedral>and "OpenTTD" or .....
15:56<@planetmaker>dihedral: nah, that might not be too good... too many newgrf developers don't build themselves
15:56<dihedral>who is talking about 'building themselves'
15:56<andythenorth>ach
15:56<dihedral>it could still run via the cf
15:56*andythenorth writes some code
15:57<dihedral>hehe - and disable networking for those builds :-D hehe
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16:09<dihedral>planetmaker, can you not enject something which brakes savegames after exactly 5 years when those dev tools were used? :-D
16:10-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC438B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:10<andythenorth>how about enabling developer tools *always* screws with money?
16:11<andythenorth>i.e. provides $1bn
16:11-!-JVassie [~James@92.27.149.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:13<@planetmaker>dihedral: andythenorth both would reduce their usefulness
16:13<@planetmaker>like money... how would that work when I join a MP server?
16:13<@planetmaker>like kill a game after 5 years... too little time to actually test many things
16:13<dihedral>why do you want to make it MP safe?
16:13<@Terkhen>IMO a setting is enough; anyone setting that on should live by the consequences
16:13<@planetmaker>yeah
16:14-!-Muddy_ [~muddy@playing.OpenTTD.no] has joined #openttd
16:14*andythenorth wonders if 'starting money' is hidden in the config somewhere
16:14<dihedral>and so everybody else has to put up with the threads in the forums
16:14<@planetmaker>dihedral: because I otherwise would need two or three config files ;-)
16:14<@planetmaker>and I couldn't check sprite alignment anymore when I'm on our servers
16:15<@planetmaker>or checking the active CB and vehicle vars on a server game is also quite useful
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16:15<dihedral>load a save?
16:15<@planetmaker>as those are the games where many things are most easily tested - other people build the test game for me there :-P
16:16<andythenorth>not having to visit the cheat menu every time I start a FIRS industry placement test would be nice :P
16:16<andythenorth>I am wearing out my alt-ctrl-c keys :P
16:16<@planetmaker>:-P
16:16<andythenorth>"screw gameplay, what matters is that the game is a decent *developer* environment"
16:17*andythenorth back to the code
16:18<@planetmaker>well. Developer tools should be an add-on. If other parts of the code behave differently they might start to be of limited use
16:18<Wolf01>'night
16:19-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host194-223-dynamic.5-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:19<andythenorth>bleargh
16:19-!-Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08f13f.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
16:20*andythenorth boards the log raft of pain
16:20<@planetmaker>:-D
16:21<@planetmaker>note, that this conversation is log(g)ed ;-)
16:21<@Terkhen>:)
16:22*andythenorth wonders where the logs are
16:23<dihedral>@logs
16:23<@DorpsGek>dihedral: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
16:23<dihedral>^ here
16:23<andythenorth>"It's log, it's log, it's better than wood it's good"
16:23<Prof_Frink>If concealed the logs in a sufficiently complex directory structure
16:24<Prof_Frink>You wouldn't be able to see the wood for the tree.
16:25-!-ar3k [ident@ebl219.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
16:26<andythenorth>how ironic
16:26<andythenorth>I was trying to test the FISH log raft
16:27<andythenorth>but was accidentally compiling FIRS :P
16:27<andythenorth>wondered why my changes weren't showing up
16:27<@planetmaker>lol
16:27*Prof_Frink hands andythenorth a chainsaw
16:27<@planetmaker>but it's not a 1st time that happens :-)
16:28<@Terkhen>:D
16:28<andythenorth>I have idiot-proof colour coded terminal windows
16:28<andythenorth>but apparently I am a higher class of idiot
16:28<dihedral>hehe
16:28<dihedral>or colour blind :-D
16:28*andythenorth finds a bug
16:29<andythenorth>a broken down ship reports a speed >0
16:29<andythenorth>or so my FISH code thinks
16:29<dihedral>currents :-P
16:29<andythenorth>anyone want to read src to prove me wrong?
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16:32<+glx>var19 ?
16:32<dihedral>night
16:33*dihedral needs to disable developer tools in himself :-P
16:33<dihedral>and go to bed
16:33<andythenorth>I'm using var B4 to check speed
16:35<+glx>ok it's v->cur_speed
16:36<andythenorth>which isn't updated when broken down?
16:36<+glx>and it's set to 0 on break_down
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16:36<andythenorth>hmm
16:36<andythenorth>maybe I screwed up my nfo
16:40-!-xiong [~xiong@netblock-68-183-230-47.dslextreme.com] has joined #openttd
16:42<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22084 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Check grf version strictly and consider grfs with version < 2 as incompatible. If you have trouble with certain grfs from BaNaNaS, then bother the author about fixing the grf.
16:43<@planetmaker>:-)
16:44<andythenorth>does that include a url to find the author? :P
16:44<andythenorth>no, I know, it can't :)
16:44<@planetmaker>the grfs can tell... as do yours
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16:46*andythenorth only has 12 full sets of offsets to adjust :)
16:46<andythenorth>@calc 8*12
16:46<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 96
16:46<andythenorth>:o
16:48<andythenorth>lame
16:48<andythenorth>that can wait
16:49-!-volta [nobody@141.48.223.1] has joined #openttd
16:50<frosch123>someone knows how long the complains lasted when the parts of dual headed parts could no longer be moved and turned individually?
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16:50<Eddi|zuHause>was that ever possible?
16:50<frosch123>yes
16:51<volta>hi folks, i have a complaint about town names: i'm using german names and one of the towns is named 'Waldwald', which doesn't make much sense in german
16:51<frosch123>it is still possible in ttdp
16:51<andythenorth>ttdp is known to be superior :)
16:51<andythenorth>and contains no misfeatures
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16:52<ABCRic>volta: if my translator is correct... xD
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>volta: why would "Waldwald" be less sensible than "Baden Baden"?
16:54<volta>baden baden is a real town! somewhere in baden :P
16:54<ABCRic>guess the name generator needs a check for duplicates, then :P
16:55<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it is possible in 0.3.5, it is not possible in 0.4.8
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: afair my first version was 0.4.0
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>and i started playing extensively with something r3300-ish
16:56<@peter1138>that was another bjarni change
16:57<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/dualheaded035.png
16:57<andythenorth>is it bed time
16:57<andythenorth>?
16:57<TGYoshi>indeed
16:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it is just the thing that came to mind when i read the complains from that neko guy
16:58<andythenorth>TGYoshi: you played a FIRS game?
16:58<frosch123>a "feature" which did not make a lot sense and was "fixed" by removal
16:58<TGYoshi>andythenorth: What the heck is firs :P
16:58<andythenorth>nvm :D
16:58<TGYoshi>don't remember those short names xD
16:58<TGYoshi>that one with extra industies?
16:58<TGYoshi>or new stations and stuff?
16:59-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:59<andythenorth>industries
16:59<TGYoshi>yes :P
16:59<TGYoshi>it upgrades the game alot :D
17:01-!-volta [nobody@141.48.223.1] has quit [Quit: going back to waldwald :P]
17:01<@Belugas>going zhome
17:02<@Belugas>byebye
17:02<@SmatZ>bye Belugas :)
17:02<Rubidium>night Belugas
17:03<andythenorth>hmm
17:04<andythenorth>I remembered why I stay out of the 'problems' forum
17:04<andythenorth>nothing good happens in there
17:04<TGYoshi>why? xd
17:04<TGYoshi>I just spam all my problems here :D
17:05<andythenorth>good night
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17:15<ABCRic>The problems forum is such a nice place
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17:16<ABCRic>everyone reads the stickies and posts helpful information
17:16<ABCRic>...not :D
17:18<ABCRic>although a setting to disable placing of transmitters during map generation is an idea
17:19<@Terkhen>can't you do the same with a NewGRF?
17:20<ABCRic>Terkhen: possibly, I don't know. But a setting would be more useful, no?
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17:29<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/137986 <-- a display gui instead of transparency gui?
17:30<@SmatZ>wouldn't that window get too big?
17:30<@planetmaker>do you think? do you have it open all the time?
17:31<@SmatZ>well, I use ctrl+(shift)+n shortcuts :)
17:31<@planetmaker>I mean... you see its size, it would not really get (much) more. Maybe one or two lines
17:31<@planetmaker>I only use x to switch between my configured setting and all ;-)
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17:32<@planetmaker>Townnames are missing and waypoints. hm
17:37<ABCRic>good night
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17:39<@planetmaker>time for bed... good night :-)
17:40<@SmatZ>good night planetmaker :)
17:41<@planetmaker>but SmatZ if you have an idea how to add the other 4 needed elements in the existing window... I'm grateful for suggestions. Keeping it small and concise while clear... not easy :-)
17:41<@planetmaker>But I guess, andy will have an idea, too ;-)
17:42<@planetmaker>And I'm probably too tired today to get something better :-)
17:43<@SmatZ>planetmaker: using separate window for this is out of question?
17:43<@SmatZ>if that window will have more than 10 elements, they won't be selectable by ctrl+(shift)+n
17:44<@SmatZ>those "text" thingies are mostly just on/off, they don't have "transparency" mode
17:45<@SmatZ>I don't really see adding those buttons as a "needed elements"
17:49<@planetmaker>well... not really needed probably. I'd like to see the menu in the upper left of the screenshot gone. It's pointless and yet another place for settings
17:49<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?folder=displayopts/ fixes that somewhat
17:50<@planetmaker>and I'm thinking what to add additionally to the transparency window
17:50-!-Frankr [~chatzilla@78-105-193-194.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
17:53<@planetmaker>well, let's disucss it tomorrow :-)
17:54<@SmatZ>:)
17:54<@SmatZ>+ return _settings_client.gui.show_town_names << DO_SHOW_TOWN_NAMES
17:54<@SmatZ>+ + _settings_client.gui.show_station_names << DO_SHOW_STATION_NAMES
17:54<@SmatZ>I think this doesn't do what you think it does :)
17:54<@SmatZ>use | instead of +
17:55<@planetmaker>old version :-(
17:55<@SmatZ>ok then :)
17:55<@planetmaker>it doesn't do what I want. yes
17:55<@SmatZ>I see you change it again in 030 :)
17:56<@planetmaker>ah, then not old, but... messed up queue :-P
17:56<@SmatZ>:)
17:58<@planetmaker>thanks for that hint and now really good night ;-)
17:58<@planetmaker>(why does that never work?)
17:58<@SmatZ>+ has higher priority than <<
17:58<@SmatZ>so "1 << 2 + 3" is "1 << (2 + 3)"
17:58<@Terkhen>good night planetmaker :)
17:59<@SmatZ>| has lower priority
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18:06<@Terkhen>good night
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18:36<xiong>What is with new Coal Mines? They seem to come in small, sometimes just 2x3. Doesn't seem to have anything to do with output. But game-start mines are 4x4.
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19:21<zydeco>shouldn't the ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_INFO packet also include the bankrupcy and share info ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_UPDATE includes?
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19:28<zydeco>oh, I should sleep
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 15 00:00:05 2011