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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-18

---Logopened Fri Feb 18 00:00:19 2011
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01:51<@Terkhen>good morning
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01:52<@Terkhen>lstor: for consistency, IMO the ctrl key in convert rail should allow you to use diagonal areas
01:53<Eddi|zuHause>ctrl+drag for signals makes autocomplete-along-rails
01:54<Eddi|zuHause>diagonal doesn't make sense, because you can do that without ctrl
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01:58<@Terkhen>hi __ln__
02:02<__ln__>ah, it's still winter, -23°C
02:03<@planetmaker>brrrr. coooold
02:05<@planetmaker>but if the celsius scale had an absolute zero, one could say we have 1/10th of that here
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02:29<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's snowing here
02:30<@planetmaker>there's an easy way to find out: go out of your house. stand there for 5 minutes. If your hair got a lot more white you either aged quickly or it's snowing. The latter is reversible
02:31<__ln__>here's a useful web service for that also:
02:31<@Rubidium>or someone threw out a bucket of white paint
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02:32<@planetmaker>you find out which by the time the reversal-process takes ;-)
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02:42<Eddi|zuHause>how do i know how long the reversal process would take, if i were in the unreversable case?
02:49<@planetmaker>by looking up how long the reversible process usually takes :-P
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03:17<Eddi|zuHause>but there's a flaw: if my hair was already white before going out, it wouldn't get any whiter, but yet it still could be snowing. so you get a false negative
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03:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, corner case ;-)
03:37<@planetmaker>1 prime, 3 prime, 5 prime, 7 prime, 9 measure error, 11 prime, 13 prime... --> all odd numbers are prime
03:37<@planetmaker>but of course two is the only true odd prime ;-)
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>more interesting are numbers that are both prime and square .p
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm... an eye fell off there
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>· <-- add this ;)
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04:05<@planetmaker>:-) the amount of square primes and even primes should be about the same ;-)
04:08<Eddi|zuHause>err... not really
04:08<@planetmaker>you include 0?
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04:09<Eddi|zuHause>(1 is considered not prime by any sensible definition)
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04:09<@planetmaker>hm, right. Two divisors
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>because 1 has an inverse element, it makes considering it a prime unweildy if you extend it to more than natural numbers
04:13<dihedral>good morning ladies
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it boils down to the same thing as considering the field where 0==1, in practically any proposition about primes/fields you have to exclude it ("any prime > 1" or "any field where 0!=1")
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>so it's better to generally exclude it in the first place
04:18<@planetmaker>:-) yeah
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05:22<dihedral> <- nice!
05:22<dihedral>was looking for juniper alternatives... this looks awesome
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05:35<zydeco>good morning
05:38<dihedral>hello there
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05:52<Ammler>dihedral: used that with XenServer
05:52<dihedral>did you like it?
05:52<dihedral>to me it looks better than a juniper
05:53<Ammler>didn't compare with others, was my first and only choice, did its job :-)
05:54<Ammler>now I do the routing with the hypervisor
05:55<dihedral>yeah - cannot do that in the environment we have - at least not with the hosted servers
05:55<dihedral>possibly on the internal esx server
05:55<dihedral>i am considering getting one extra to place at Hetzner, get a /24 subnet and route it through :-D
05:56<dihedral>or some other provider, depending on cost and latency
05:56<Ammler>yeah, if you plan to setup a vm just for Routing/NAT etc., it is a nice distro
05:56<dihedral>it would not be a vm for that i think, it would probably be one of the appliances
05:56<dihedral>seeing as we close to only have dell hardware it would fit in quite well too
05:57<dihedral>at least for the hosted servers
06:00<Ammler>well, most appliances run virtual don't they?
06:04<@peter1138>"appliances" ?
06:05<@peter1138>My kettle is quite real.
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07:15<DanMacK>ey all
07:18<@SmatZ>hello DanMacK
07:18<roboboy>where should I go looking for code to do with mouse cursor in game?
07:19<Noldo>I'll grep race you
07:21<Noldo>window.ccp has a lot of hits for "cursor"
07:25<roboboy>I wonder if a tutorial could be written by moving the mouse to the coordinates of a buton
07:25<roboboy>scrap that
07:25<roboboy>that wouldn't work for clicking tiles
07:26<roboboy>it might if the tutorials used a hardcoded seed that they could cope with
07:26<Ammler>roboboy: or watch the docommands
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>so... post-branching 1.1, it's time to include experimental big features... anyone up for it? :)
07:27<roboboy>so it could always use hardcoded tileids or coordinates
07:27<@peter1138>NEW MAP ARRAY
07:27<dihedral>Ammler, ;-)
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking about heightlevels or cargodist ;)
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07:29<@Yexo>heightlevels still needs to be _properly_ split in several smaller patches and the author doesn't seem interested in that
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>last time i looked at that patch, i tried to dissect (trunk) tgp.cpp, but didn't really get what was going on...
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>there's some weird clamping occuring, but it's nowhere done explicitly
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>in trunk it's visible that the highest generated level is one level below the highest possible level
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>in the heightlevel patch i have seen clamping to something like 145 levels, instead of 255 possible
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07:36<DanMacK>Hey Lakie
07:36<Lakie>Hi DanMacK
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07:41<Ammler>dihedral: those appliances do have software/os installed already, don't they?
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm... what am i doing wrong? i put '#include "debug.h"' into the file, and "DEBUG(map, 3, "blah");" into the function, but i'm getting weird compilation errors
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07:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm... works if i put it after stdafx.h... smells like a missing include
07:51<dihedral>Ammler, no, they do not. they are based on standard x86 arch and you can do with them what you like
07:51<dihedral>commonly used for firewall / gateway stuff
07:53<Ammler>I thought Appliance is based on Application :-)
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07:56<Ammler>looks like there are 2 types of appliances: computer and software, I had software appliance in mind
08:03<dihedral>your dsl router is considered an appliance :-P
08:03<@Belugas>#And you FADE AWAY
08:04<@Belugas>tea party - psychopomp
08:04*Belugas goes away to the office
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>what's the quickest way to delete the last character of a string?
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>was thinking about "str[strlen(str)]='\0';", is that valid?
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>or missing a -1?
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08:12<Ammler>dihedral: yes, because there is already software on it :-)
08:13<dihedral>so, if you write software and want to sell it as an appliance - that is what some clients do - buy hardware from nexcom and thelike
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08:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the output of tgp.cpp doesn't fully conform to the actual map visible afterwards
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>and my screen is not wide enough :(
08:43<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, FixSlopes() ?
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08:59<Eddi|zuHause>who the hell buys a 82" monitor that has "only" Full-HD resolution?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>i mean: i'd rather buy 16 20" monitors that each have full-hd resolution?
09:01<@planetmaker>and which graphics card would fill them?
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09:01<Eddi|zuHause>what has quad-sli been invented for? :p
09:01<@planetmaker>and how ugly do the many screen borders in between look like, if you want to use it as tv monitor for --- whatever presentation / video presentation or whatever?
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>if you build a custom chassis, there aren't a lot of borders inbetween left...
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of marketing cheating is this?
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>- Reaktionszeit 5ms typisch
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>- Reaktionszeit gray-to-gray 3ms
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>what's the real value here? and what effect does it have?
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>what's the difference between a monitor for 300€ and one for 1000€ if both are roughly the same size and have roughly the same values given?
09:14<@Terkhen>either one of them is overpriced, the other one has some "hidden" flaw or both
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09:57<xiong>I hope this is not a stupid question: If a FIRS primary industry threatened to close and I delivered cargo to it within 30 days. It closed *anyway*. Why?
09:59<xiong>More to the point, once an industry -- of any type -- threatens to close, is there any point in trying to save it?
10:00<Ammler>xiong: known bugs afaik
10:01<xiong>Ammler, Erm, so, is that an invariant bug and attempting the save pointless? Or an erratic bug and I might get lucky?
10:02<Ammler> <-- maybe you find something here, else report it :-)
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10:03<xiong>I usually allow closing industries to fail, on the theory that I can fund/prospect another if I need it. But I particularly wanted this Iron Mine, right where it was. Or at least, I thought I did.
10:04*xiong looking
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10:09<xiong>... Has a really major FIRS update come out?
10:10<xiong>Hello, Belugas.
10:11<DanMacK>depends what you mean by "major"
10:11<DanMacK>The most ercent version is incompatible w/past savegames, I consider that "major...
10:11<xiong>Well. People tend to be... a little funny, I think, when incrementing version numbers. Everyone has a different opinion.
10:12<xiong>I now see a "Smithy Forge" and an "Iron Works". This isn't an incremental change, methinks.
10:15<Aziroshin>Also depends on the project. If a project introduces savegame-incompatibilities with every patch, as that is the case sometimes with commercial games, things may be viewed in a different light.
10:16<xiong>Well. Is there any room for a complete change of subject?
10:17<xiong>I'm not a software guy, a lot of this stuff is beyond me. I get woozy just looking through bug reports. But it is clear to me that many of these FIRS "bugs" are just graphics that need to be drawn.
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10:25<DanMacK>Yeah, that covers alot of them
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause>there's a tiger on my desk and he's stepping on my spacebar
10:26<xiong>Okay, well, please excuse me if I seem to be rude; it's not my intent. But why do you guys have such a hard time coding up graphics drawn by other people? Why must you draw all your own? I mean, I have a lot of skills but I know my strengths.
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10:27<Ammler>xiong: firs is still in development, so every release should be seen as major release :-)
10:28<Ammler>do only report bugs, if you use latest or try nightly
10:28<xiong>I'm not going to worry about it, Ammler. It's out of my paygrade. I'm just glad progress is being made.
10:28*Terkhen has never coded anything he drew
10:28*Eddi|zuHause has never drawn anything he coded
10:29*DanMacK is just an artist, and is contributing to FIRS
10:30<xiong>Well, since I joined this chan and started playing, I've tried to contribute in the best way I can. I've offered to draw graphics to order. I've asked others to code graphics I've drawn. All I hear, though, is "Why don't you write XYZ patch?" I don't mean any offense; I just don't understand.
10:30<DanMacK>Andy was doing most of the drawign and coding for awhile, I jsut joined recently.
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10:31<DanMacK>*joined FIRS recently
10:31<DanMacK>What have you drawn?
10:32<DanMacK>You're a member on the forums right?
10:32<xiong>Besides wiki illustrations? Ingame graphics? I drew bigsig. Gathered a stunning lack of interest.
10:33<xiong>I admit, I was upset about it at the time. Now, I'm just puzzled.
10:33<xiong>Um, yes, xiong here, xiong there. Most places xiong. It's not just a weird handle; it's a form of my name.
10:34<DanMacK>It's an interesting concept and makes perfect sense. Personally, that particular grf isn't something I would use.
10:35<xiong>Most people wouldn't. It's ugly, intentionally so. Everything is sacrificed to reveal as much as possible about the signal to the player.
10:35<DanMacK>Haven't ahd the opportunity yet anyway. There are alot of projects out there that don't garner alot of interest
10:36<DanMacK>'s great if you're doing a signallign simulation or demo or trying different concepts
10:36<DanMacK>I've ahd a couple of projects that kind of fizzled due to lack of interest, it happens
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10:37<xiong>Well, pull at it the other way. For months now, I've been telling people in here that I'm a professional graphic artist with years of experience, some of it specifically drawing tiny little pixel stuff; and I've demonstrated, I hope, that I at least know what I'm doing, even if my idea sucks.
10:37<DanMacK>Who have you asked?
10:38<xiong>Erm, asked which?
10:38<DanMacK>if they need graphics?
10:38<xiong>I say this every so often, right here in chan.
10:39<DanMacK>personally, from a set designer's point of view, such as the Canadian set and the North American Renewal set, I try and keep a similar style. Alot of set designers are reluctant to bring in other artists
10:39<xiong>I'm not a fanatic and yes, I do have other things to do with my time. I'm not pushing hard; it just puzzles me that nobody wants my help, doing what I *can* do. While whenever I talk about something I see, I'm told to fix it myself.
10:40<DanMacK>graphicswise, that's what gets me into trouble
10:40<DanMacK>I see something that needs doing, I suggest it, I'm told to draw it myself, I do, and end up contributing alot more along the way :P
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10:41<xiong>Not what I meant. Nobody has told me or asked me to draw anything. Instead, I've been asked to write computer code, which I can do in a sort of rudimentary fashion at best.
10:41<DanMacK>hmmm, can't see that if it'
10:42<DanMacK>s a graphics issue
10:42<xiong>I understand the point about a guy who starts to draw a set of stuff and wants not to bring in other hands that may not share the same style.
10:43<xiong>But then, why start to draw it in the first place? Why not ask a graphically skilled person to do all the drawing? Or do what pros do, and set design standards so that multiple artists can work together on a project set?
10:43<DanMacK>That's up to the individual set designer
10:44<DanMacK>For me, I know a few people that can code
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>(people are just quickly annoyed by his attitude and appearance, has nothing to do with drawing style or anything)
10:44<DanMacK>I don't touch the stuff, just confuses me
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>(and he still has me on ignore list)
10:44<xiong>I'm muddling my points, I'm afraid. I've raised issues that have nothing to do with graphics; I just see weaknesses in operation. When I raise these observations, I get "you patch it, then".
10:45<xiong>Yah well, same here. I write code, yes, but it's very small stuff.
10:46<xiong>Before I got into graphic design, I was a hardware engineer. I learned enough about software to make the blinky lights come on. Lately, I've been studying up. But I'm years away from being able to contribute to a complex project.
10:46<DanMacK>gamewise, if there's something that others haven't noticed or think is TMWFTLB, yeah, you'll probably be told to fix it yourself
10:47<DanMacK>or find someone that's willing to patch it
10:47<xiong>Yes, well, I'd find it more helpful if you would say, "That's too much trouble" or "I don't see a need". I tend to interpret people literally.
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10:48<xiong>When I mention a thought here, that's what I'm trying to do: generate some interest in the thought.
10:50<Eddi|zuHause> <-- lmao :p
10:50<xiong>I dunno, man. I see two dozen bugs that amount to "slap some snow on existing graphics" and I wonder who, with any skills at all, cannot be allowed to do that.
10:51<@Belugas>mmh... what is the deal with migrating ottd in HTML5 ?
10:51<@Belugas>the new flavor of the day?
10:51<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: is that written as a serious offer? :D
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i'd call it "satire" :p
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: context is the german defense minister (Theodor zu Guttenberg), who is said to have plagiarized his doctorial thesis.
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: this keyboard is "ergonomically optimized" for copy-and-paste :p
10:53<xiong>Another change in subject: I'm currently gestating a FIRS walkthrough. I have been around the FIRS site and get the feeling that really in-depth documentation is being left undone because everything may or may not change. Yes? No?
10:53<xiong>Is there any sort of timeline for 1.0?
10:55<DanMacK>No real timeline. I'm just a graphics lackey, Andy's the one you'd need to ask for that
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10:56<DanMacK>Regarding the snow, it's not a matter of who "can" do it, it's more a matter of who "wants" to do it
10:56<supermop>Our snow just melted
10:56<supermop>it's going to be 60 today
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>that's damn hot
10:57<DanMacK>it's just like construction stages, and why FIRS has none ATM - they're a pain in the ass
10:57<supermop>actully i once went to a Finish sauna
10:57<supermop>where it was 95 C
10:58<supermop>they are not legally allowed to get nearly that hot in the US,
10:58<DanMacK>xiong, if you want to do snow sprites, mention it in the thread
10:59<DanMacK>I'm sure Andy would be glad to send the sprites
11:00<DanMacK>less work for me :P
11:05<xiong>I don't particularly want to do snow. I'm willing to do snow. I'd like to help. Maybe I can work my way up from snow.
11:05<xiong>What thread?
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11:09<DanMacK>Doesn't ahve to be snow, it's just a suggestion because neither Andy or myself particularly want to do them
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12:36<xiong>Good night, all.
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13:20<@SmatZ>hmm my ISP is giving up and the majority ISP is taking over its customers
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13:25<@SmatZ>xiong: bikes don't have numbers... at least here :p
13:28<@SmatZ>peter1138: [18:36:28] <xiong>
13:28<@SmatZ>license plates and similiar numbers
13:28<@peter1138>bikes do
13:28<@SmatZ>well... yeah, there are some numbers, but not "highly visible"
13:28<@peter1138>not pedal bicycles though
13:29<@SmatZ>I am sorry for my English :)
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause>wtf? an engine number like in the picture would be like 2 pixels in openttd... what exactly does he want?
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13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i presume one could hijack the loading indicators to implement a "floating" unit number above the vehicle
13:37<DanMacK>That's what I'm thinking he's meaining
13:37<DanMacK>but would that not blow the CPU usage?
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicles have to be redrawn anyway, so a slightly bigger area to redraw shouldn't hurt
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13:39<DanMacK>It makes sense, but I don't think I'd use it
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>you know what? i should write "do the patch yourself" :p
13:39<@Alberth>not missing an 'l' IchGuckLive ?
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: no.
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>"gucken" or "kucken" means "to watch"
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>g and k varies on dialect
13:40<@Alberth>ha, thanks
13:40<IchGuckLive>im in the Mountan Game area arend there subvention ?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>IchGuckLive: subsidies should be in every game mode
13:41<IchGuckLive>im beond July and no one appears
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>bad luck, i presume ;)
13:43<IchGuckLive>so the money comes very slow to get a better game running
13:43<IchGuckLive>in mountain game its not good to drive with low Horse power
13:43<@Alberth>nothing a cheat could not fix if you are in a hurry :)
13:45<IchGuckLive>no cheets thats boring if you sudenly got mony as a milioneer and build in pause mode thats so boaring no action
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22095 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 11 changes by elleryq
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: danish - 40 changes by beruic
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 41 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: swedish - 22 changes by LordDaimos
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13:47<IchGuckLive>brazilian_portuguese carneval ahead lots of nacked meat
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14:35<wargh>How come that opcode can't be changed during a game? Would the AI crash or something?
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15:04<@Alberth>good evening andy
15:07<andythenorth>the change that made acceleration slower - is that in 1.0.x, or is that a 1.1.x thing?
15:10<andythenorth>are HEQS trams unfairly good?
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>i think they're fairly cheap compared to similarly sized trains
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>especially since refitting doesn't cost anything
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>refit cost is a complicated problem, the feature is underdeveloped
15:14<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22096 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Move openttd getopt implementation to its own file.
15:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: leave it as is
15:15<andythenorth>just imposes work on newgrf authors if the spec is fixed :P
15:15<@Alberth>the only problem with zero cost refitting imho is that you don't get feedback that it is done
15:15<andythenorth>there are bigger fish to fry
15:18-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
15:19<wargh>Like Moby Dick
15:20-!-supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
15:20-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:20<wargh>Although, on second thought, he ain't a fish.
15:23<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22097 /trunk/src/misc/ (getoptdata.cpp getoptdata.h): -Fix (r22096): Add files before commit.
15:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: "shall we start with a meta-question?"
15:26<andythenorth>was that the meta question
15:26<andythenorth>or is that a meta-meta-question?
15:27<andythenorth>and when I ask you if that's a that a meta-meta-meta-question?
15:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22098 /trunk/src/ (misc/getoptdata.cpp misc/getoptdata.h openttd.cpp): -Codechange: Have an array of option data, use it in the option parsing routine. Adapt openttd option processing too.
15:29<@Alberth>they are all meta questions
15:32<andythenorth>are they?
15:33<@Alberth>a meta-meta-question is also a meta meta-question
15:34<andythenorth>is it?
15:34<@Alberth>ie what the non-meta question is about, is not relevant
15:34*andythenorth might be being silly
15:34*andythenorth has stayed up late writing about metadata this week
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15:35*andythenorth has a frazzled brain
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15:35<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22099 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
15:35<CIA-11>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
15:35<CIA-11>OpenTTD: - Fix: Remove invalid keycodes when reading hotkeys.cfg [FS#4510] (r22094)
15:35<CIA-11>OpenTTD: - Fix: The server list did not get sorted with one item in it, so the 'position in the list' variable was never updated causing problems when using the keyboard shortcuts for scrolling [FS#4514] (r22093)
15:35<CIA-11>OpenTTD: - Fix: When deleting towns, only relocate objects during DC_EXEC (r22087)
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15:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22100 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (9 files): [1.1] -Backport from trunk: language updates
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15:51<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22101 /trunk/src/misc/getoptdata.cpp: -Codechange (r22098): Unify a bit of code.
15:52*andythenorth should write some code
15:52<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22102 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Also use the getopt function in strgen.
15:53<@Alberth>only 2 months late :p
16:02<@Alberth>with a frazzled brain? doesn't sound like a good plan
16:05<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22103 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: for 1.1.0-RC1
16:10<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22104 /tags/1.1.0-RC1/: -Release: 1.1.0-RC1
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16:16<@planetmaker>hm, I'm coming straight for the release :-)
16:16<@planetmaker>hi supermop
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16:23<andythenorth>is station bouys out of the question?
16:24<@planetmaker>if there are newgrf ports, drawing a newgrf station in the shape of a buoy also would work
16:24<DanMacK>makes sense
16:24<@Rubidium>we need some features to remain TTDPatch only, otherwise nobody will play TTDPatch anymore
16:24<@planetmaker>buoys are waypoints conceptually
16:25<andythenorth>newgrf ports is kind of stuck?
16:25<@planetmaker>not even started I think ;-)
16:25<@Rubidium>lots of stuff is kind of stuck
16:25*andythenorth wonders if the PHP approach might be better sometimes
16:25<andythenorth>do it wrong
16:25<andythenorth>do it quickly
16:26<andythenorth>keep the users happy
16:26<@Rubidium>like I'm not quite sure whether cargodist does conceptually the right thing
16:26<@planetmaker>that only works when you have a very modular thing
16:26<andythenorth>"it's insecure and broken, but it does what people need"
16:26<andythenorth>^ PHP approach
16:26<@planetmaker>cargodEst sounds to me the conceptually better concept...
16:27<@Alberth>andythenorth: you should described a patch pack :)
16:27<andythenorth>I can't provide newgrfs for a patch pack
16:27<@Terkhen>not again? :P
16:29<@planetmaker>supermop: re installing ply and PLI: both packages should come with a Just run those scripts and those packages should install themselves. Basically the same you subsequently then need to do for NML itself
16:30<@planetmaker>it's sad that windows has no sensible package manager.
16:30<@Terkhen>yes, quite
16:31<@Terkhen>but if it did I doubt it would have packages like ply and pil
16:31<@planetmaker>not? If there was a common format like rpm which then double-clicked would launch the installer?
16:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: just add a random linux distro as requirement too :p
16:32<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I don't think MS would follow that approach
16:32<@planetmaker>Terkhen: obviously they don't
16:32<@Terkhen>I mean, in the case that they did some kind of package manager :P
16:32<@planetmaker>But... it might fit quite well. But I don't need to convince anyone here :-)
16:33<JOHN-SHEPARD>i have a question related to windows
16:33<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
16:33<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
16:33<@Terkhen>I don't really mind; I finally managed to get wine running properly
16:33<JOHN-SHEPARD>you know when you leave your mouse on a link on your web browser
16:33<JOHN-SHEPARD>there is a box information that pops up
16:33<JOHN-SHEPARD>how is that box called?
16:33<@planetmaker>mouse-over or tooltip
16:33<JOHN-SHEPARD>well in windows 7
16:33<@Alberth>JOHN-SHEPARD: your windows problem is trivially solved by installing ubuntu
16:34<JOHN-SHEPARD>yes or i could just go back to windows xp but i would rather not
16:34<JOHN-SHEPARD>but the problem is
16:34<JOHN-SHEPARD>the tool tips just disappear half a second after they appear
16:34*planetmaker is concerned about the noice level
16:34<JOHN-SHEPARD>that's the most annoying thing ever
16:34<@planetmaker>you paid M$ for it - so they should have an answer
16:35<JOHN-SHEPARD>i didn't really pay i have access to it for free with the MSDNA accords with the school
16:35<@Terkhen>so as soon as I finish my project I'll use only linux
16:36*Alberth is afraid john didn't hear his solution.
16:38<JOHN-SHEPARD>should i just buy a mac they say it just works their is no virus they say
16:38<JOHN-SHEPARD>in fact even teachers say "you should install linux"
16:38<andythenorth>JOHN-SHEPARD: I can confirm that Apple also normally ship a functioning caps-lock key
16:39<andythenorth>which might be of use to you :P
16:39<andythenorth>it even has a small light in it
16:39<andythenorth>so you know when it's on :D
16:39<@Terkhen>mine has no light :(
16:39<andythenorth>you should buy a mac
16:39<andythenorth>that little LED is worth the extra
16:39<@Terkhen>will it have lots of lights?
16:39<JOHN-SHEPARD>mac will be the light to shine your pitiful macless life
16:40<andythenorth>there is something wrong in ship code, or FISH wrt to checking speed is 0
16:40<@Terkhen>can't I buy a normal computer and buy a light with the money I save?
16:41<@Terkhen>andythenorth: does it happens in 1.0.5 too? I changed the ship code a bit
16:41*andythenorth will test
16:41<@Terkhen>but that was a few months ago
16:43<andythenorth>it happens in 1.0.5
16:43<andythenorth>it's reproducible
16:44<andythenorth>stop a FISH ship, then start it. The newgrf doesn't update the graphics accordingly until about 4mph
16:44<andythenorth>this could well be a big in FISH
16:44<andythenorth>but looks like a lag in updating display
16:44<Prof_Frink>Or have you got bigger FISH to fry?
16:44<andythenorth>similar problem with breakdowns
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16:45<@Terkhen>hmm... it's something based on ship speed I guess
16:45<@Terkhen>what ship should I check?
16:46<@Alberth>Terkhen: yes you can buy a computer, a light and save money. And even better, you can decide how and what to install
16:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: yexo * r22105 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix: crash when copying an orderlist to a vehicle that already had orders
16:47<@Terkhen>night Wolf01
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16:50<andythenorth>Terkhen: any of them
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16:51<krinn>hi all
16:52<@Terkhen>hi krinn
16:54*DanMacK waves
16:54*andythenorth has a new candidate for most boring nfo task
16:55<krinn>i think my ai (not finish!) is enough mature to be test by someone and i've read you have a live server that could do the work for me ?
16:55<@planetmaker>krinn: release it on bananas and make a thread in the NoAI subforum
16:55<@planetmaker>No better way to get it tested
16:56<krinn>not really enough mature for mass audience
16:56<@planetmaker>and no, we don't have servers which test AIs
16:56<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the water "trail" (I'm not sure if that is the correct word) does not appear until the ship has been moving for a bit, right?
16:56<@planetmaker>at least I'm not aware of any such facility
16:56<@Rubidium>you just have to poke the right people at TU Delft ;)
16:57<@planetmaker>krinn: but the "public" is what will get you tested it thoroughly. And corner cases
16:57<andythenorth>Terkhen: and also, if a ship breaks down, it continues showing the moving sprite
16:57<@planetmaker>In any case, you'll "need" to publish it in the NoAI subforum
16:57<andythenorth>even though speed is reported as 0
16:57<@planetmaker>There you'll have the audience which feel like also running 'experimental' AIs
16:57<krinn>planetmaker, it's enough stable to get more test, but i won't disapointed people with it
16:57<@Terkhen>but if you stop the ship the graphic change is instant
16:58<@planetmaker>krinn: there's no 'bug free' and no 'done'
16:59<krinn>lol but "it's shit" exist :)
16:59<@planetmaker>don't be shy to upload it to bananas. It's also - IMHO - a curtosy to the people who want to test it. It makes it easy
16:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: the nfo could be wrong, but looks write to me:
16:59<andythenorth>right /s
16:59<@Yexo>krinn: at least upload it to the forum
16:59<@Terkhen>krinn: label it as beta or taster :)
16:59<@Yexo>that's a (very) limited audience already compared to uploading it to bananas
17:00<krinn>i'll try the forum test first, i don't want all people grab it easy thru banana and get flames
17:00<@Terkhen>andythenorth: to me it looks like an alien language :P
17:00<@Terkhen>but I guess it's a callback that checks the ship speed
17:01<andythenorth>it's just checking a var :)
17:01<andythenorth>specifically B4
17:01<andythenorth>it's basically an if statement
17:01<@Terkhen>hmm... let's see how it is handled in OpenTTD code
17:02<@planetmaker>krinn: you won't get flames, I'm quite sure. And even if... if labeled as 'taster' or 'beta' - those people could have known
17:03<@planetmaker>Just to speak from my experience with various newgrfs: if it's in the forums only - you get maybe the literal hand full of people who try things, only on the very first posting you might get 3 hand full.
17:03<@planetmaker>If you put it on bananas - you get dozens
17:03<@planetmaker>note: not everyone who tests it reports back. Rather the minority
17:04<krinn>i'll try the forum test first
17:04<krinn>i prefer small audience that will do effort to download & install the file knowing what they do
17:06<andythenorth>the bigger audience on bananas isn't worth much for a first release
17:06<andythenorth>there's no easy feedback mechanism
17:06<andythenorth>and there's no way for them to get to readme or anything
17:07<andythenorth>so mostly they'll play it, think 'this is a bit lame' and never try it again
17:07<andythenorth>is my guess about first releases in general
17:07<@planetmaker>might be
17:08<@planetmaker>though most people download everything
17:08<krinn>i've also disable some transport the ai should handle in order to finish others ones before... so not fully functional, that's why i'm not really hot to push that to banana
17:09*andythenorth offers free advice to newgrf authors: don't make vehicles that change size
17:09<andythenorth>the offsets are a PITA
17:11<@planetmaker>you mean 'change size' as in 'another time than during refit'?
17:12<andythenorth>log raft specifically
17:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the code for checking the variable itself is shared by all vehicle types so I don't think the problem is there
17:13<@Terkhen>probably Ship::GetImage is not being called frequently enough
17:13<andythenorth>that would be very plausible
17:13<@Terkhen>do code similar to that one works for other vehicle types?
17:13<@Terkhen>I already found cases of CB36 not being evaluated enough (or being evaluated too much) in ships
17:14<@Terkhen>but it is useful to know which vehicle type is doing it right before adding stuff :)
17:14<supermop>Hey, planetmaker, I was helping a customer for a bit
17:14<@planetmaker>no worries. That's what highlights and logs are for :-)
17:14<andythenorth>Terkhen: I don't have any other cases for vehicles that I can think of easily
17:15<supermop>how do i run the
17:15<@planetmaker>it's a python script
17:15<@Yexo>"python install"
17:15<@Terkhen>andythenorth: no problem
17:15<@planetmaker>python install
17:15<@planetmaker>and I'm slow
17:15<@Terkhen>it seems that all vehicle types call this function in the same places
17:15<supermop>i type that line into python and hit enter?
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17:16<@planetmaker>into the windows cmd
17:16<@Terkhen>except, of course, trains
17:16<@Alberth>python install
17:16<@planetmaker>supermop: I'd be _VERY_ greatful, if you could document well, where you stumbled and what advice you needed
17:17<@planetmaker>in getting this thing running
17:17<supermop>well, I have so little experience with programming, that everything is a struggle for me
17:17<@planetmaker>it's kinda hard for me... for I neither have windows and I have it already installed successfully ;-)
17:18<@planetmaker>supermop: that's then ideal :-)
17:18<@planetmaker>I want an idiots guide to setting up NML ;-)
17:18<supermop>but i can make some notes as to how the documentation could have been more helpful
17:18<@Yexo>that would be nice, thanks :)
17:18<@planetmaker>that'd be really appreciated :-)
17:19*Yexo is going to test cxfreeze in a clean vm
17:19<@Yexo>that might also solve most problems
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17:22<supermop>so can nml now do everything that nfo can?
17:22<@planetmaker>not yet entirely
17:22<supermop>ie help me avoid the huge action 2 chain i need to make in my other grf?
17:23<supermop>for smart fences on rail yard tiles
17:23<supermop>speaking of which,
17:23<@planetmaker>but it makes the action2 chains at least easier readable and can make them shorter, too
17:23<@planetmaker>if your other grf is stations... they're somewhat not entirely implemented in NML
17:23<supermop>are rail fences part of rail sets, or just base graphics?
17:23<@planetmaker>except if you draw airports ;-)
17:24<@planetmaker>they can be both, supermop
17:24<supermop>and does a rail tile remember when it is built?
17:24<@planetmaker>not at all. And not planned either
17:24<supermop>so it is not possible to vary rail fences by date
17:25<@planetmaker>hm, yes, it is
17:25<supermop>i have drawn some chain link fences I really like, but they would look absurd in 1830s
17:25<@planetmaker>but it'd change everywhere
17:26<supermop>gradually, or all at once?
17:26<@planetmaker>supermop: look at SwedishRails level crossings
17:26<@planetmaker>They change from old to modern over 15 years.
17:26<@planetmaker>1/4 of all tiles at once every 5 years
17:26<@planetmaker>I use the 2 random bits which the tiles have to not have ALL change at once
17:27<supermop>not every fence gets updates instantaneously on dec. 31 1950
17:27<@planetmaker>well. they would.
17:27<@planetmaker>Or 1/4th of all fences
17:27<supermop>ok, later I might ask you some more in depth questions about that
17:28<@planetmaker>the ser code is freely available under GPL v2. So you're free to re-use it under those terms
17:29<@planetmaker>it might also be a nice reference when you write a railtypes grf ;-)
17:29<@planetmaker>and it was one of my motivations to write it actually
17:29*andythenorth has done 1 set of log raft offsets
17:29<andythenorth>5 more to go :P
17:30<DanMacK>Later all
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17:40<@Belugas>So long!
17:41<Prof_Frink>Indeed. 9 day weekend.
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17:45<@Terkhen>Belugas: enjoy :)
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17:47<krinn>i suppose you don't work on the WE belugas ?
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18:08<@Terkhen>good night
18:09<@planetmaker>good night
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18:14<krinn>ok i bundle it, hope it won't crash too much :)
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18:29<@Yexo>supermop: did you manage to install nml already? if not, could you try to use the binary from here:
18:32<supermop>I am still at work for 30 more minutes
18:33<supermop>i just sent that link to myself so i will be able to try it out when i get home
18:33<@Yexo>I've also posted in in the forum in the nml-topic, so you can find it back there too
18:36<supermop>do you think it would be worth re-writing my othe grf in nml now?
18:36<supermop>it is over 1000 sprites, so it might be a lot of work
18:36<@Yexo>depends on how big it is / how many comments are in your nfo
18:36<@Yexo>also depends on how well you can read that nfo
18:36<supermop>i have a few comments to myself in there
18:37<supermop>most of what i have written is stuff i understand
18:38<supermop>i never learned how to use nforenum though, so it is a pain to adjust things
18:40<@Yexo>you're editing an nfo file with over 1000 sprites without nforenum?
18:40<@Yexo>that's just insane
18:41<@Yexo>just run "nforenum filename.nfo"
18:41<@Yexo>basically just like you run grfcodec
18:41<@Yexo>but make a backup first
18:48<wargh>Is there any way to make vehicles that are feeders get a share of the income? I don't like getting the negative income for them every year (but I still want the option for the warning checked in case something happens to my other routes). The feeder system percentage is set to 75% in options. But my feeders don't get any share.
18:48<@Yexo>what kind of orders do you use?
18:48<@Yexo>use transfer instead of unload if you use that now
18:48<wargh>Ok, I missed that one
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18:49<wargh>Thank you
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19:13<supermop>going home, be back in a few minutes
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19:43<supermop>so i have nml working now (i think)
19:44<supermop>so i have an nml file, and i have some pngs
19:44<supermop>next i need the language file
19:44<supermop>do i then put them all in a folder?
19:45<@Yexo>all language files go in a directory named "lang"
19:46<supermop>all lang files for this grf, or for all grf i plan to make?
19:46<@Yexo>for this grf
19:47<supermop>and I assume that directory then goes into the same one that contains the nml file?
19:47<@Yexo>I'd advise to keep each project (=nml file, png files, lang directory) in a separate directory
19:48<supermop>so i want to make mlsd.grf, i start with a folder containing (.png files), mlsd.nml, and 'lang'
19:48<supermop>and that folder should be called 'mlsd'
19:49<@Yexo>you can call that folder whatever you want
19:49<@Yexo>but project name is a logical choice, so 'mlsd' sounds good
19:49<supermop>how does nml find the folder then?
19:49<@Yexo>it doesn't, you give it that folder
19:49<supermop>if its name is arbitrary?
19:50<@Yexo>you open a command prompt in that directory and run "nmlc mlsd.nml -o mlsd.grf"
19:50<@Yexo>did you install nmlc via python or did you use the exe I uploaded?
19:50<supermop>the binary
19:51<@Yexo>if you're not comfortable with the commandline at all, just create a bat file with the above nmlc line as contents
19:51<@Yexo>add "pause" as second line
19:51<@Yexo>that you can double-click that bat file to create your grf
19:51<supermop>no idea what bat is, so i will stick with command line
19:52<supermop>reminds me of playing tto on dos
19:52<krinn>it's a text file with the command it gave you but name end with .bat
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20:02<supermop>gah i get a fatal error because of an unknown action 0 property
20:03<supermop>but i dont even know which are the action 0s because it is in nml
20:03<@Yexo>ehm, if you use nml there is no reason to use nforenum
20:03<@Yexo>or grfcodec for that matter
20:04<supermop>i didnt
20:04<supermop>this is in ottd
20:04<supermop>started another game
20:05<supermop>no error, but it isn't doing anything either
20:07<supermop>no effect whatsoever on depot graphics
20:08<@Yexo>you can only supply depot graphics for railtypes that have rail graphics that are also provided by a newgrf
20:09<@Yexo>also you have a lot of item(FEAT_RAILTYPES, rail_tracks)-blocks, you need to give each of those a unique name
20:09<supermop>yeah i did
20:09<@Yexo>that means the "rail_tracks" part
20:09<supermop>it doesnt do anything whether it is loaded by itself, or also with nutracks
20:10<supermop>you mean the lable for the track type goes there?
20:10<supermop>like RAIL or 3RDR?
20:10<@Yexo>no, a unique name you can make up yourself goes there
20:10<@Yexo>but it has to be different for each track type
20:11<@Yexo>otherwise the changes overwrite eachother
20:11<supermop>so it could just be "type_3RDR"
20:11<@Yexo>like now you're saying: "Here is a railtype named rail_tracks with label RAIL. Change the label of railtype named rail_tracks to ELRL. Change the label of ...."
20:11<supermop>to help me keep it straight?
20:11<@Yexo>yes, that's correct
20:12<supermop>ok, back to notepad
20:14<@Yexo> This works correctly if nutracks is also loaded and nutracks is before mlsd in your newgrf list
20:15<supermop>i have 28 names to come up with, give me a second
20:15<@Yexo>I'm not sure that is going to work
20:17<@Yexo>every newgrf can only define 16 railtypes. I'm not sure what nml will do when you try to use more than 16.
20:17<@Yexo>Either it gives you an error message or it tries to use higher ids.
20:17<@Yexo>in the latter case openttd will simply ignore everything with an id >= 16
20:18<@Yexo>the proper way to fix it is to set the id's yourself, but nml currently doesn't support non-constant ids
20:18<@Yexo>so that'll have to wait until I can fix that somewhere this weekend
20:19<krinn>Yexo can an AIList() have dup item ?
20:20<supermop>it is not for 28 typs at the same time
20:20<@Yexo>krinn: no
20:20<@Yexo>supermop: doesn't matter
20:20<supermop>but so that it can recognize the lables used by nutrack, or swedish rails, or slow rails, or transrapid
20:20<@Yexo>you'll need to wait until this issue is implemented before you can really support 28 different railtypes:
20:21<supermop>depending on what is loaded
20:21<@Yexo>I know, but currently nml doesn't support that
20:23<@Yexo>good night
20:23<supermop>nml says, unexpected token ...
20:23<supermop>so i will wait on that
20:24<supermop>good night and thanks!
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21:16<@Belugas>[17:47] <krinn> i suppose you don't work on the WE belugas ? <---depends what you call work, krinn... Work for work? nope, got my share during the week alright. Although they call me sometimes... but not as intensive.
21:17<@Belugas>now, i relax
21:17<@Belugas>at last :)
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---Logclosed Sat Feb 19 00:00:22 2011