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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-19

---Logopened Sat Feb 19 00:00:22 2011
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01:47<@Rubidium>moi planetmaker
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03:18<dihedral>well done for rc1 :-)
03:18<dihedral>i am looking forward to having a game of that :-)
03:20<@planetmaker>good point. I just should restart our stable ;-)
03:20<@planetmaker>moin dih
03:24<dihedral>good morning :-)
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03:36<krinn>good morning
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03:44<Eddi|zuHause>cold morning
03:44<krinn>it's warm here
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04:09<@Terkhen>good morning
04:11<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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04:18<krinn>morning Terkhen
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04:37<@Terkhen>hmm... writing documentation is really boring
04:41*planetmaker hugs Terkhen
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05:06<yorick>something about the ubuntu .debs for the 1.1.0-RC1 is broken...the beta is registered as newer than the rc
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>that's your package manager which is broken.
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05:09<yorick>or it could be gdebi that is broken
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05:16<dihedral>a yorick!
05:16<dihedral>hello there
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05:18<__ln__>how's the openttd C# port progressing?
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05:19<zydeco>good morning
05:20<@planetmaker>moin zydeco
05:21<@Terkhen>hi zydeco
05:21<@planetmaker>hm... interesting: trains, propert 09 (speed): "This limit is ignored for wagons with a livery override for the current train, so that train sets always get their max speed from the engine's max speed." :-)
05:21<@Terkhen>__ln__: in its current state, sometimes people ask about it
05:21<@planetmaker>but what means the next sentence "For wagons, a value of 0 means "default" (which depends on cargo type and date of introduction), and FFFF means no limit."?
05:22<@planetmaker>__ln__: as far probably as a java port ;-)
05:22<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I don't understand that sentence in the specs
05:22<@Terkhen>why should max speed depend on cargo type and date of introduction by default? shouldn't callbacks take care of that if the developer wants to do that?
05:22<@planetmaker>what's the default speed for a wagon? Especially if that should be cargo-dependent?
05:22<@planetmaker>that's what I wonder, too :-)
05:25<@Terkhen>planetmaker: OpenTTD does not seem to take into account that (see train_cmd.cpp line 228)
05:26<@planetmaker>well, that's what is said before that in the specs, too
05:26<@planetmaker>I just wonder whether that sentence c/should just be deleted from the specs
05:26<@Terkhen>yes, but that cargo type stuff is nowhere to be seen, and it does not make much sense anyways
05:27<@planetmaker>but it'll need a frosch to probably to look at :-)
05:27<@planetmaker>maybe ttdp does something weired there
05:28<@planetmaker>any such weiredness in interpreting the nfo specs would probably be hidden in the newgrf reading routing, though
05:28<@planetmaker>(if possible)
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05:29<@Terkhen>see newgrf.cpp line 568
05:29<@Terkhen>if (speed == 0xFFFF) speed = 0;
05:30<@planetmaker>yes, that also makes sense from the specs. But cargo-dependent default?
05:31<@Terkhen>it's the first time I hear something like that, yes
05:31<@Terkhen>probably my brain is used to filtering the parts of the specs that make no sense
05:33<@planetmaker>sadly specs are one of the few places where that behaviour can be really dangerous
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05:34<@Terkhen>yes, that's why I prefer to touch them as less as possible :P
05:34<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
05:34<dihedral>reading that out of context sounds weird
05:35<@Terkhen>some kind of "blame" for that wiki page history would be useful
05:35<@Terkhen>so we can know when and why it was added
05:35<@planetmaker>there's a history function
05:36<@planetmaker>as every wiki ;-)
05:36<@planetmaker>but not as convenient as blame, indeed
05:36<@Terkhen>yes but it does not seem to go much far
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05:37<@Terkhen>I can't find a way of checking older revisions
05:38<@Terkhen>even editing the link manually to show an older one fails
05:38<@Terkhen>so I guess this will remain a mistery
05:38<@planetmaker>hm... indeed. The wiki does NOT keep all versions :-(
05:38<@planetmaker>at least not for me either
05:38<@Terkhen>that's really wrong IMO
05:39<@planetmaker>I always assumed it does
05:39<@planetmaker>let's hope for a new one ;-)
05:41<dihedral>planetmaker, NewStations on the welcome server?
05:41<krinn>just to help, it make sens to me to have a speed limit on wagon and some other wagons aren't affect
05:41<dihedral>according to rc1 it's not found in the online content
05:41<krinn>like if you want limit a wagon speed because of dangerous cargo, radiactive, instability...
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05:42<@Terkhen>krinn: you can already do that via callbacks, that's why the description of this action 0 property does not make much sense
05:44<@planetmaker>dihedral: we already had games with grfpack newgrfs
05:44<@planetmaker>but honestly, an oversight ;-)
05:45<dihedral>well - perhaps the next game then :-P
05:45<@planetmaker>it was in my stations preset
05:45<krinn>Terkhen, some internals, to avoid return train engine speed limit to 10mph because the train pull 10mph speed limit wagons?
05:45<@planetmaker>don't tell me, dih, that using the coop grfpack is a problem for _you_
05:46<@Terkhen>krinn: sorry, what do you mean?
05:46<dihedral>planetmaker, no it's not, i am just too lazy right now :-D
05:48<krinn>Terkhen, as planetmaker said, it's not to limit trainsets
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05:50<@Terkhen>krinn: are you talking about the livery part?
05:50<krinn>say you have a train engine with 100mph, that pull wagon of 10mph, it's speed will be limit to 10mph, but still for train speed calc you should be able to know that trainset (the engine+wagon) raw speed is base on the train real engine speed
05:51<krinn>something like, don't take the 10mph limit a trainset have when you want to calc some train acceleration, but use the real speed the train engine could reach
05:51<@Terkhen>I was not talking about the livery part, but about the limit on cargo type part
05:51<krinn>:) i might take something wrong so
05:52<@Terkhen>the problem is: with action 0 you can set the max speed of a wagon or engine, and with callbacks you can modify properties under certain conditions
05:53<@Terkhen>talking about those conditions in action 0 does not make much sense, at least to me
05:54<@planetmaker>quite. And if so they'd need explicit naming than some wavy 'default values' - esp. as CB36 is not an a priori default.
05:54<@planetmaker>nor is livery override a default
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05:54<krinn>well, maybe some old days limits, like before refitting is introduce, callback weren't need, and limit was base on the cargo the wagon have (as it cannot be refit)
05:54<@planetmaker>it's something which an engine may or may not define
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06:04<krinn>later all
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07:01<DanMacK>Hey all
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08:16*dihedral likes the game :-)
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08:18<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22106 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp sprite.cpp sprite.h): -Codechange: Add DrawTileSeqStruct::MakeTerminator(), DrawTileSeqStruct::IsTerminator(), DrawTileSeqStruct::IsParentSprite() to simplify stuff.
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08:19*Zuu uses no NewGRFs + last nightly and can't build airports.
08:20<Zuu>Couldn't find a relevant fix in the commit log since yesterday evening.
08:20<Zuu>Year is 1950
08:23<Zuu>If I disable "Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles are available" in advanced settings, I can build an airport and then aircrafts.
08:26<Zuu>It seems like AIs are also affected.
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08:31<Zuu>But when I started a new game with this advanced setting = off, then AIs were able to build airports.
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08:32<Zuu>(and human players as well)
08:32<dihedral>you said that the nightly before last works?
08:32<dihedral>and yesterdays fails?
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08:36*andythenorth ponders drawing smoke directly onto ship sprites
08:36<@Alberth>Zuu: trunk seems to work (r22105), did you pause the game perhaps?
08:37<Zuu>The game is not paused.
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08:38<Zuu>Make sure you have "Interface -> Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles" enabled
08:38<@Alberth>it says 'On'
08:39<andythenorth>when my log raft breaks down, the smoke effect is positioned on the logs :(
08:39<Zuu>I'll check again tonight if it works and if not make a better report at
08:51*andythenorth has white pixels and can't find them
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09:30<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22107 /trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup (r1903): Remove unused struct.
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09:38<@planetmaker> <-- I enjoyed that answer actually...
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09:51<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22108 /trunk/src/ (table/water_land.h water_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Replace some magic with some other magic though less easy to break.
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09:55<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22109 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Fix (r21269, 21272): Missing undeffing of macros.
09:56<Zuu>planetmaker: When customer support is at its best :-D
09:57<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22110 /trunk/src/ (table/water_land.h water_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Remove WaterDrawTileStruct and use DrawTileSprites/DrawTileSeqStruct instead.
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10:02<@planetmaker>Zuu: yes, I feel a bit guilty. But... he didn't give any effort either, so the feeling of guilt is a bit limited
10:04<Zuu>yes indeed, the error report was not very descriptive.
10:04<DanMacK>No guilty feelings PM, that was perfect
10:06<Zuu>In OSS you as "customer" have to make yourself obligable for the support by walking half the distance. If you don't, then you shoudn't complain on what kind of answers you get. :-p
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10:39<supermop>good morning
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11:09<@planetmaker> <-- :D irony being lost it seems ;-)
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11:17<supermop>so planetmaker, it looks like i cannot conditionally support railtype from multiple sets in nml yet
11:17<supermop>so i am just going to rewrite it to work just with nutracks, and another grf to work just with default for now
11:19<@planetmaker>why wouldn't that work?
11:20<@planetmaker>if railtype_available and grfpresent()...
11:20<@planetmaker>along that logic?
11:20<@planetmaker>or maybe I miss what you actually try to do :-)
11:21<supermop>apparently nml get confused if you try to set up conditions for more that 16 labels, even if they would not all work at the same time
11:21<supermop>nml itself stops at the line with the 17th type and gives an error
11:21<@planetmaker>hm... do you have the nml file for me?
11:22<supermop>i am at work
11:22<supermop>i didnt upload the most recent yet
11:23<supermop>the version that is in my thread on the forum compiles fine once i fixed those name strings,
11:23<supermop>but it doesnt do anything in game
11:24<supermop>because it is worded to just keep changing the label for the regular tracks
11:24<@planetmaker>but it doesn't do that?
11:25<supermop>it does nothing
11:25<supermop>it will load fine
11:25<supermop>game will run fine
11:25<supermop>but absolutely nothing happens
11:25<@planetmaker>I'll look at it; so far I only looked at whether it compiles really ;-)
11:26<supermop>rubidium was helping me last night with it
11:26<supermop>he made some flyspray thing about it
11:27<gohan4748>im a bot
11:27<gohan4748>im kidding
11:27<gohan4748>im in alot of chats
11:27<gohan4748>right now
11:29<@planetmaker>supermop: I don't find that entry. Could you summarize the discussion or give a time?
11:29<supermop>maybe around 10 pm est, so 3 am gmt
11:31<supermop>ahhh sorry!
11:31<supermop>it was yexo, not rubidium that was helping me
11:31<supermop>he made this
11:34<@planetmaker>right. Read that IRC discussion. Then there's no way to get that done with the current version. But well... soonish :-)
11:35<supermop>i can just make a couple different grfs for the major railsets for now instead
11:36<@planetmaker>nah. I'd do that grf - for now - with 16 railtypes in the form you plan. And wait for NML to support more.
11:36<@planetmaker>it'd be IMHO the cleaner solution.
11:36<@planetmaker>it's something which *should* work ;-)
11:37<@planetmaker>after all when you write it now to work with 16 labels, you can then easily add another 16 when that nml-task is implemented. Simply copy&paste a few lines of code and add a few more graphics ;-)
11:38<@planetmaker>or are you in a big rush to get them churned out like now? And not... in, say a week or a month?
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11:39<@planetmaker>the advantage of the one-grf solution is the much higher user-friendlyness
11:40<@planetmaker>I find it kinda boring to have - for example - like 3 or 4 different total bridge replacement sets, one for each road and rail type, possibly even combination thereof
11:40<@planetmaker>that's... something which could and should IMHO be handled in one newgrf
11:40<@planetmaker>and this'd be the same thing
11:40<@planetmaker>and now I stop the monologue ;-)
11:44<Hirundo>TLDR ;)
11:45<Hirundo>too long, didn't read
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11:49<supermop>yeah i am worried about being too much trouble to attract users
11:51<Zuu>Depends on how much the users mean to you :-)
11:53<Zuu>I got 25 upgrades of ottdau in about 48 hours which is maybe not a lot, but it make me happy that there are some people that find it usefull. :-)
11:53<supermop>but yes, it seems odd to me that we still must have so few bridges
11:53<supermop>almost no one uses my grf as is
11:54<supermop>i was hoping that adding matching depots would help a bit
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12:00<supermop>just something that has always bothered me
12:00<@planetmaker>Zuu: if I still played on windows, I'd have it :-)
12:00<@planetmaker>was a must-have for me back then :-)
12:01<supermop>i wish i could add a couple bridges just for monorail or maglev etc, but doing so would eat in to the total number of bridges i could have
12:01<@planetmaker>supermop: you mean your station grf? Or did you do a bridge grf I missed?
12:01<supermop>just did some sketching and drawings on the bridges
12:02<supermop>never coded anything
12:02<Zuu>planetmaker: I agree about it being a must-have ^^
12:03<supermop>i wanted to add 10 or so suspension bridges, each with a very specific length range, so that graphics could be drawn to look idea for a suspension bridge
12:03<supermop>and then ad some cable stayed bridges as well
12:04<@planetmaker>well. There's only limited newgrf support for bridges
12:06<supermop>yeah, that is why i never went any further than concept
12:06<@planetmaker>well. There surely somewhen will be full support in the same way as for vehicles, industries or stations...
12:07<@planetmaker>but noone so far even started on thinking about the specs ;-)
12:08<supermop>the possibilities would be interesting
12:08<@planetmaker>absolutely :-)
12:09<supermop>call backs so that if two bridges of same owner and type are next to each other, they could look like one wide bridge
12:10<supermop>so you could simulate say, the brooklyn bridge as [oneway road][tram][oneway road]
12:10<@Terkhen>hmm... it is not possible to set up + and - as hotkeys?
12:10<@planetmaker>that'd be a really advanced thing. I'd not bet on that too soon. But allowing to define your own bridges and more than 11 - that's probably not too difficult
12:10<@planetmaker>Terkhen: as they're ascii <128: probably
12:11<@Terkhen>someone complained about + and - not working anymore for zoom out/zoom in
12:12<supermop>yeah, if you could do at least more types, then there is the ugly solution of "Suspension bridge, right" and "suspension bridge, left"
12:12<Zuu>Terkhen: I've complained about that before
12:12<@Terkhen>I don't know if it is feasable to fix this
12:12<Zuu>At least about that it is rather troublesome to figure out what character that I should encode my -+ keys as in hotkeys.cfg.
12:14<Zuu>But that was long time ago I tried to fiddle with my hotkeys.cfg to do anything with non-a-z keys.
12:14<supermop>maybe something to vary appearance of certain bridge types depending on date built
12:15<Zuu>As for the record in SDL for example you only recive the key symbol in the key down event, and need to store it along with the keycode so that when the key is released you can inside your program generate an internal symbol release message.
12:16<Zuu>Had to fiddle a bit with that in order to make it work well with symbol based hotkeys in a SDL program I write.
12:18<@Terkhen>given the contents of the _keycode_to_name, NUM_PLUS and NUM_MINUS should be usable
12:19<@Terkhen>they are even used in _maintoolbar_zoomin_keys at the toolbar code
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12:22<@Terkhen>they probably were added later, after deleting my hotkeys.cfg they work correctly
12:23<@Terkhen>Zuu: zoomin = NUM_PLUS,=,SHIFT+=,SHIFT+F5
12:23<@Terkhen>zoomout = NUM_MINUS,-,SHIFT+-,SHIFT+F6
12:24<@Terkhen>hmm... something strange happens
12:25<@Terkhen>they only work just after I delete my hotkeys.cfg
12:25<@Terkhen>the next time OpenTTD is opened they are reset to only SHIFT+F5 and SHIFT+F6
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13:02<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22111 /trunk/src/ (cargopacket.cpp cargopacket.h station.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Codechange/fix-ish: upon cleaning a pool a destructor should not delete items from other pools
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13:17-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
13:23<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22112 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: register all pools in a pool vector
13:25<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22113 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: use PoolBase::CleanAll() to clean all pools at game exit
13:31<gohan4748>im a banana
13:31<@SmatZ>yes, you are
13:31<@SmatZ>do you taste yourself?
13:31<gohan4748>i taste myself
13:32<Markk>So basically, you lick yourself on your banana?
13:32<@SmatZ>ok... well
13:32<gohan4748>I WELL
13:33<@SmatZ>well well well...
13:33<gohan4748>I ATE MYSELF
13:33<@Rubidium>hmm... someone didn't update the topic
13:34<@SmatZ>I hope you are fine
13:34<@SmatZ>doesn't seem so :/
13:34<V453000>hm wtf
13:34<@Rubidium>gohan4748: do you want to be banned?
13:35<gohan4748>is anybody there
13:36<@SmatZ>I wonder if gohan4748 is actually a person
13:36*DanMacK sniffs the air and smells a ban coming on
13:36<@SmatZ>he had comments like those at #gcc #oftc #moocows and maybe other places
13:36<gohan4748>i am
13:36<Markk>What is one plus one?
13:37<gohan4748>hhow would u know
13:37<@Terkhen>either he fails at trolling or someone took his IRC nick
13:38<gohan4748>i just want to have fun
13:38<@SmatZ>seems he got banned from #linode :)
13:38<gohan4748>im unbanned
13:40<V453000>even being banned once says something :)
13:41<gohan4748>im not banned from#gcc #oftc #moocows
13:41<gohan4748>im not banned from #gcc #oftc #moocows
13:41<@planetmaker>thanks for sharing. Any reason to not put you on ignore?
13:41<@planetmaker>(except that I then don't see why others might rightfully complain?)
13:42<@SmatZ>well, you were banned at #oftc, but the timed ban has expired :p so yes, you are not banned there now
13:42<@planetmaker>@kban gohan4748 300 this time has not expired yet
13:42-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
13:42-!-gohan4748 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [this time has not expired yet]
13:42<@planetmaker>5 minutes though. as warning
13:44<@Terkhen>I doubt he will understand the warning
13:44*planetmaker too
13:44<V453000>he seems extensively stupid
13:44<Wolf01>they take it as a challenge
13:44*Rubidium ponders /mode +q *!
13:44<Wolf01>when he'll return he will do anything to get another one
13:45<@SmatZ>Rubidium: you are late with that one :)
13:45<@SmatZ>or... yes
13:45<@SmatZ>+b/+q ..
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22114 /trunk/src/lang/ (danish.txt unfinished/frisian.txt):
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: danish - 3 changes by beruic
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frisian - 13 changes by Taeke
13:45<@Rubidium>SmatZ: no, just to make him silent in the future without him really noticing ;)
13:46<@planetmaker>good idea :-)
13:46-!-mode/#openttd [+q *!] by planetmaker
13:47*planetmaker is in BOFH mode ;-)
13:47-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
13:47<@Terkhen>indeed :D
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13:55<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22115 /trunk/src/ (core/pool_func.cpp core/pool_type.hpp openttd.cpp): -Fix (r22114): some comments and code ordering were wrong
13:58<@Rubidium>planetmaker: really, I was thinking of COFH
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13:59<@planetmaker>CO = ?
13:59<@Rubidium>channel operator (from heaven)
13:59<@Terkhen>heh, he left :P
14:00<@planetmaker>puh :-)
14:00-!-mode/#openttd [-q *!] by planetmaker
14:00<@planetmaker>maybe he understood. ;-)
14:20<Wolf01>wow, new lego trainset:
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14:31<DanMacK>Definitely a nice set that
14:32<DanMacK>Good representation of a GP40-2
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14:41<dihedral>* planetmaker is in BOFH mode ;-) <- that does not happen very often :-P
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15:04<supermop>good afternoon
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16:32<Zuu>Terkhen: I tried to add then non-numpad keys that you suggested but didn't got it to work. Also when I exited OpenTTD it removed my additions. (but some other changes I have in the file remained)
16:32<Zuu>zoomin = SHIFT+F5,=,SHIFT+=
16:32<Zuu>The BACKQUOTE thing was there in my file. Not sure if I've put it there myself or if it has been there since before.
16:37<@Terkhen>Zuu: I have not tested but I think that this problem was introduced in r22094
16:37<Zuu>Oh, so recently..
16:38<Zuu>Looking at _keycode_to_name, it looks like a quite short list to me.
16:38<Zuu>For example, I can't find page up/down there.
16:40<Zuu>Shouldn't there be a entry there fore each WKC_KEY? (apart from a-z, 0-9 which are probably not non-normal keys)
16:47<Zuu>Hmm, it looks like ParseCode (line 67 in hotkeys.cpp) is responsible for parsing single symbols/codes from the config file.
16:47<Zuu>It accepts a-z and the keycodes that exist in _keycode_to_name and then nothing else.
16:47-!-shmore [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:48<Zuu>So according to this it should be impossible to use eg. number-keys in your config file.
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16:51<@Terkhen>Zuu: <--- something similar to this solves the problem, but I don't think it is a correct solution
16:58<Zuu>I'll take a look at it.
16:59<Zuu>What exactly is the problem you are trying to solve? That it does not get the config change that you suggested?
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17:07<Zuu>What is interesting is that ParseCode first check if you have written something that exist in the _keycode_to_name list, then it checks if you have written something that matches [a-zA-Z]. If you have written something else it will return 0. Then back in ParseKeyCode, there is several checks on the return value from ParseCode. However, if you have written something non [a-zA-Z] or not in the _keycode_to_name array, code will be 0.
17:08<Zuu>hmm, I think I'm wrong. it is only lowercase that is allowed ( [a-z] )
17:08<Zuu>but that's a detail in this matter.
17:10<Zuu>It might be that you need some checks to ignore if someone has written a multi-letter lowercase word so that you don't parse eg. "word" as the w-key.
17:11<Zuu>But as far as I can see there is no need to do validity checks on the keycodes that exist in the _keycode_to_name array.
17:12<Zuu>It could be that there is a broken assumption somewhere that all keys in _keycode_to_name are WKC_SPECIAL_KEYS.
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17:16<@Terkhen>Zuu: some of the keys that patch allows might not be suitable for being used as hotkeys (for example [)
17:18<Zuu>The problem with eg [ is that if I want that as hotkey I have to figure out what that resambles on US-qwerty to be able to write it into my hotkeys.cfg file.
17:18<Zuu>Or did you forsee any other issues with [ ?
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17:28<Zuu>In principal I don't see any problem with letting people use whatever hotkeys they want. Though it is probably a good idea if the hotkey loader blocks those hotkeys that don't work in OpenTTD.
17:29<zydeco>look, the topic still says 1.1.0-beta5
17:30<@Terkhen>at least in my keyboard I cannot press [ by itself
17:31<zydeco>yes, the spanish keyboard sucks for coding
17:31<zydeco>especially objective-c :p
17:32<Zuu>Hmm, yes we only need the keycodes for keys that can be pressed by themself on US qwerty as that is what OpenTTD uses.
17:32<Zuu>At least from the perspective of keycodes somehow.
17:32<Zuu>Still I get dvorak while typing in chat.
17:33<Zuu>What users like me or Terkhen will have use for is a dialog where you can type how to press [ on your own keyboard an get the string representation of that keycode.
17:35<Zuu>The fact that that string representation will not be "[" is something I think would require rather large changes to overcome.
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17:38<@SmatZ>why is "[" == WKC_L_BRACKET == 147, and not its ascii code, 91?
17:38-!-Kurimus [] has quit []
17:39<Zuu>possible because keycode != symbolcode
17:39<Zuu>several symbols usually share the same key.
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17:41<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.0.5, 1.1.0-RC1
17:41-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.5, 1.1.0-RC1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
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17:45<@Terkhen>yes, a GUI for hotkeys would be nice :)
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>is the keycode layout-dependent?
17:46<@Terkhen>if there are some keyboards with [] as keys then it should be kept IMO
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>[ is on AltGr+8 here
17:46<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: I don't think so, from what I see the keys are mapped to constant codes
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>so there's an intermediate layer which translates raw keycode to "unified" keycodes?
17:53<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: yes, it's done in src/video/*_v
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>aha, so there's also an os-abstraction-layer
18:00<@SmatZ>US keyboard layout has []
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18:01<Zuu> <-- perhaps change it so ParseCode only have a special case for a-z + 0-9 and handle all other keys by having them in the array?
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18:01<Zuu>Note that I don't think my code for [0-9] works.
18:03<Zuu>The array would contain entries for all symbols that you can produce by pressing a key without a modifier on US-qwerty.
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18:04<Zuu>hi krinn, welcome to the hotkey-night
18:04<krinn>rubiduim, doesn't the UTF8 encoding should be on the computer that run openttd and not only on the source file, my system is UTF8 and my files are encode as-is per default
18:04<krinn>hi Zuu !
18:05<krinn>hotkey-night ?
18:05<Zuu>See the logs
18:06<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22116 /trunk/src/ (28 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: use PoolBase::Clean() at more places
18:07<krinn>well Zuu i could help if you need azerty/fr tests :)
18:08<Zuu>I think that if it can handle my layout it will be pretty good with most layouts. :-p
18:08<krinn>here [ is altgr+5 and ] altgr+° (hmm 2 keys left the backspace one)
18:09<Zuu>here [ is altgr + ö and ] is altgr + p. (those are located on e and r on a qwerty-board)
18:10<Zuu>However, that's not the main issue at the moment.
18:11<Zuu>The main issue is to make it possible to configure any config you like on a US-qwerty board. Then a transaltor can be used to provide the US-qwerty equivalent of a key combination on other keyboards/layouts.
18:11<@Terkhen>Zuu: that seems to revert r22094... does it trigger FS#4510 again?
18:13<krinn>well, i would say without seeing futher, that the patch now return *start; only if >='0' && <='9' while it was always returning it before
18:13<krinn>looks a bit dangerous imo
18:13<Zuu>Hmm, I'll take a look. But a user should not enter a local letter in the hotkeys.cfg - though we still will need to have guards to not make that crash OpenTTD.
18:14<krinn>if user/openttd/who call that expect on failure to get back its original value, the patch will make it fail now
18:16<krinn>a=that && b=thepatchfunction, the test like if (a==b) will fail because now b=0 on failure while b=that before
18:16<Zuu>As said before, I don't know exactly how that line will look like. But the idea is that it will return the keycode for key 0-9.
18:17<krinn>imo safer to reput the return *start; if >=0 && <'9' fail to return it
18:18<krinn>this will of course cancel the patch :) because who cares if it's >0 or <9 *start is return anyway ^^
18:19<Zuu>krinn: Care to post some code?
18:19<krinn> if (*start >= 'a' && *start <= 'z') return *start - ('a'-'A');
18:19<krinn>- return *start;
18:19<krinn>+ if (*start >= '0' && *start <= '9') return *start;
18:20<krinn>this part from hotkeys.cpp
18:21<krinn>see what i mean ?
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18:23<Zuu>yes, that's the line you discuss, but I've problem seeing what your suggestion look like.
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18:24<krinn>before the patch, *start was always return
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18:24<krinn>after the patch, *start will only be return if >='0' && <='9'
18:24<krinn>it's less safe, maybe someone expect *start to be return in case of failure
18:24<Zuu>No, you need to read the whole function
18:25<krinn>to get sure, yes
18:25<krinn>have a link to the function?
18:25<krinn>to drop an eyes
18:25<Zuu>ParseKeycode + ParseCode work close togeather with eachother.
18:26<Zuu> <-- with my patch applied
18:26<Zuu>line 38 and 39 has been swapped since I made the patch - but that should not affect the execution.
18:27<Zuu>just a tiny speed improvement.
18:28<Zuu>The return value on line 19 is probably wrong by a constant value.
18:29<krinn>well, i don't see something better with line 19
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18:29<krinn>if before "return *start" was ok
18:29<krinn>now it will do the same but just add 2 tests for nothing
18:29<krinn>as the action from those test is just doing like before -> return *start
18:30<krinn>just eat cpu cycles for the tests
18:30<Zuu>Well, the idea with my change is (as written earlier tonight) to only accept keysymbols that are in _keycode_to_name array with the exception of a-z + 0-9 which got these two special checks.
18:31<krinn>it's only valid if you really prefer now not return *start when (end - start ==1)
18:32<Zuu>Yes that is exactly what I want
18:33<krinn>to get catch by line 38 so ?
18:33<Zuu>I only want to allow the strings that exist in the array + [a-z] and [0-9].
18:33<Zuu>Maybe some other ascii-shortucts can be added in addition to a-z and 0-9.
18:34<Zuu>A problem is that there are some keycodes that are not WKC_SPECIAL_KEYS but are still >= 128.
18:34<krinn>hence that additional filter so ?
18:35<Zuu>please read backlog from 22:30
18:36<Zuu>Sorry if I'm a bit arrogant, but this all has already been discussed and I think you don't have the full background to this problem.
18:36<krinn>yes sorry
18:42<Zuu>Terkhen: Can't reproduce FS#4510 with my patch. (I used a swedish ä in my config). My patch ignores everything that is not in the _keycode_to_name array (except for a-z and 0-9 that is still granted).
18:42<@Terkhen>hmm... I see
18:42<Zuu>It is not ready for inclusion yet however, as it might break some hotkeys if there were some ascii keys that worked before but not anymore.
18:43<Zuu>It will make the array rather long, and some might think that will be ugly.
18:44<Zuu>There might exist some ascii ranges that can be converted in a block like a-z and 0-9 that can reduce the length of the array, but otherwise I don't see a way around it.
18:46<Zuu>As SmatZ mentioned before the ascii code for [ is not the same as the keycode for it and I don't know if there exist any easy map between keycodes and ascii for other chars than a-z + 0-9.
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18:47<@Terkhen>I still have the feeling that the special keys array could use a rework, yes
18:48<@Terkhen>but a small fix for backporting is desirable
18:48<@Terkhen>but it's too late already :)
18:48<@Terkhen>good night
18:48<@SmatZ>good night Terkhen
18:48<Zuu>Night Terkhen
18:48<krinn>good night
18:49<krinn>do you capture the altrgr code too ?
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18:49<Zuu>Probably not
18:50<Zuu>take a look on the WKC-related code in the os-layer.
18:50<krinn>so you shouldn't be able to catch [ for french keyboard that need it
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18:51<Zuu>You would probably have to write ALT and not ALTGR in your hotkeys.cfg
18:51<Zuu>Eg ALT+5.
18:52*SmatZ wonders what GR stands for...
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18:52<Zuu>Alternative group of symbols?
18:52<krinn>that's it
18:52<@SmatZ>only the right Alt is AltGR, right?
18:52<@SmatZ>I wonder why they are different :)
18:53<@SmatZ>but yeah, thanks :)
18:53<krinn>and key are positioned like that (right alt is altgr and if you look on key, the code to the right is the one coming up for that key with altgr push)
18:53<Zuu>Because otherwise you can't use symbols typed with altgr togeather with Alt in a key combination.
18:53<Zuu>That will not be possible in OpenTTD.
18:53<@SmatZ>like "Alt+Euro" :)
18:54<Zuu>Unless we change to a symbols based hotkey system.
18:54<Zuu>Which is quite a bit of work.
18:54<@SmatZ>I have only little experience with SDL key mapping, and there I was surprised how many SDLK_* are unused on normal keyboard
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18:55<@SmatZ>I don't know how other drivers behave
18:55<@SmatZ>so I can't help you much there :(
18:55<Zuu>I've implemented symbol based hotkeys in Junctioneer, but that's quite a lot of work from my side.
18:55<Zuu>(it's built on SDL)
18:56<Zuu>With OpenTTD not only using SDL but several other drivers I fear it will become a nightmare to implement it for all drivers.
18:58<Zuu>Also it will be problematic since you lose the ability to use meta keys that are involved in producing symbols for hotkeys in order to support all users in a sybols based hotkey system.
19:00<Zuu>Eg the hotkey AltGr + 5 will not work on most keyboards as when holding AltGr, you can't produce the symbol "5".
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19:03<krinn>do you filter shift too?
19:03<Zuu>As in what context?
19:04<krinn>shift+akey to grab the uppercase key
19:04<krinn>shift+a = A
19:04<Zuu>for hotkeys? (or for typing in eg. chat?)
19:05<krinn>just because in usa: 0-9 lowercase default, while french are default uppercase
19:05<krinn>the hotkeys
19:05<@SmatZ>there's a difference between 'a' and 'A' for hotkeys?
19:05<krinn>except keypad, we need shift+&-à to do 0-9
19:05<Zuu>it doesn't work that way
19:06<Zuu>Shift is a meta key and is handeled the same way as Ctrl or Alt.
19:06<Zuu>In hotkeys.cfg you can't write 'A', only 'a'.
19:07<krinn>that why i ask
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19:07<xiong>Ahhhh. Finally, I have got fixed a station connection to the main line. It was stubborn, as the station was too close to the main; and traffic needed to enter and depart in both directions; and there is significant through traffic, too. Plus another station will need to bolt on in there soon.
19:07<Zuu>I just wanted clarification so that I answer the right question. :-)
19:07<krinn>if you filter remove per exemple shiftkeycode because only a works and not shift+a that will do A
19:07<xiong>The solution is ugly but traffic is moving smoothly in all directions.
19:07<@SmatZ>shift+a is SHIFT+a
19:08<@SmatZ>if I understand it :)
19:08<Zuu>SmatZ: Yes
19:10<@SmatZ>hmm junctioner-lin32 doesn't work on my 64bit system, and the win32 version doesn't work in wine :(
19:10<Zuu>I would rather keep the system that OpenTTD uses - not becasue it is good, but because it has been there for so long. Instead I rather add a dialog to OpenTTD that reads keystrokes and suggest how to write that keystorke in openttd.cfg. Then later it might envolve to a full hotkeys GUI.
19:11<Zuu>SmatZ: Thanks for telling me - didn't know that.
19:12<Zuu>Not sure if I can do anything about it at the moment. It's C++, so at least there exist a 64 bit compiler (as opposed to Delphi :-p )
19:12<Zuu>But, I will probably need to do something more than just compile and hope it works :-)
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19:14<@SmatZ>you should be able to ssh -YC to some amd64 system, if you don't have one :)
19:15<@SmatZ>so you can compile & run it there, while still using your X server
19:15<Zuu>Hmm, now that I think a bit, I actually do have a amd64 cpu on my workstation. :-)
19:16<Zuu>I have just been runinng 32 bit for long time on it due to all problems I got when I tried to run gentoo 64bit on it - but some might be gentoo related as well :-p
19:16<@SmatZ>I have been using gentoo 64bit since I started using linux :) there were some problems in the beginning, but now, it is fine :)
19:17<@SmatZ>except some no longer maintained apps...
19:17<@SmatZ>SDL Doom, XScorch, maybe others
19:17<@SmatZ>wasn't xmms removed from portage as whole?
19:17<@SmatZ>like, 2 years ago :)
19:18<krinn>must be more 3 years yeah
19:18<Zuu>I liked it but I have understood the code was really a wreck and nobody was interested in trying to fix it.
19:18<krinn>because xmms was having like more +100 open bugs with like +30 critical
19:19<krinn>and xmms dudes said: we're on xmms2 now
19:19<krinn>is everyone under gentoo here ?
19:20<Zuu>SmatZ: Do you have a 32bit compatible CPU or do you have one of those old 64 bit CPUs that could only run 64bit programs?
19:21<krinn>no cpu for pc are like that zuu :)
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19:22<Zuu>IIRC the thing with amd64 compared to the Intel 64 bit CPUs when it was new was that it could run both 64bit and 32bit programs. (where the Intel competitor only ran 64 bit programs)
19:23<krinn>i think you speak about the itanium
19:23<krinn>itanium could run 32bits code, but crappy speed and arch isn't x86 but IA64
19:24<krinn>and IA64 is not amd64 (that was rename x86-64 by intel when they agree to be compatible with it)
19:25<krinn>lol must be the 1st time intel gave amd some money for a license :)
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19:28<Zuu>hmm, and probably my laptop has a 64bit CPU - just that I have a 32 bit windows on it. So if I swap the harddrive with one of my old laptop harddrives and put linux on it it will be able to complie 64 bit programs. :-)
19:28<@SmatZ>Zuu: I think all amd64 CPUs could run 32bit programs (and 16bit as well)
19:28<@SmatZ>the problem is that
19:28<@SmatZ>./junctioneer: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
19:29<@SmatZ>libsigc is not present in the 32bit compatibility library
19:29<krinn>it's because all amd64 can run 32bits programs, only if they have 32bits userland & tools
19:29<@SmatZ>yeah... and the support has to be enabled in kernel, speaking about linux :)
19:30<krinn>that too of course :)
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19:30<krinn>you should slocate libgsigc*
19:31<krinn>you might just lack the file
19:33<krinn>dev-libs/libsigc++-2.2.7 (/usr/lib/ ->
19:33<@SmatZ>ok, is in app-emulation/emul-linux-x86-cpplibs
19:33<@SmatZ>now I am searching for
19:33<krinn>equery b filename :)
19:34<@SmatZ>equery b searches only installed packages
19:34<@SmatZ>./junctioneer: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
19:34<@SmatZ>that's the pre-requisity of junctioneer :)
19:34<krinn>i don't have that one too
19:35<krinn>-> emerge -1 gsl
19:36*Zuu sholud possible remove the usage of that library all togeather as I already had to make my own implementation for Windows users as it segfaulted in windows whenever I tried to use some GSL functions.
19:36<@SmatZ>yeah, but that installs only the 64bit library
19:37<krinn>if you use multilib it will install both
19:38<krinn>some libs lack 64bits versions, but as far as i know, never seen a 64bits libs without its 32bits equiv
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19:39<@SmatZ>not sure if it will work, but I am trying USE=multilib emerge -v1 gsl
19:40<krinn>don't try that if you don't use a multilib profile
19:40<Zuu>You will also need sigc++, SDL_ttf, SDL_image. (in addition to gsl and sdl)
19:40<krinn>you'll get the info from emerge --info if you forget your profile on the 1st line
19:40<@SmatZ>well, multilib isn't even listed in USE of that package
19:41<@SmatZ>Portage (default/linux/amd64/10.0, gcc-4.4.5, glibc-2.11.2-r3, 2.6.35-gentoo-r15 x86_64)
19:41<@SmatZ>Current make.profile symlink:
19:41<@SmatZ> default/linux/amd64/10.0
19:41<@SmatZ>I think I was using multilib long time ago
19:41<@SmatZ>but then things changed :)
19:41<krinn>it is multilib
19:42<@SmatZ>or maybe, multilib was created
19:42<@SmatZ>oh ok :)
19:42<krinn>only -nomultilibs profiles aren't
19:42<@SmatZ>iirc, before that, 32bit stuff was placed in /emul
19:42<@SmatZ>or so
19:42<@SmatZ>ok :)
19:42<@SmatZ>but maybe I am mixing different things in one
19:44<krinn>i think you should have a /lib32 and /lib64
19:45<krinn>anyway, 32 or 64, you don't really have to care imo, as long as one exist, it will run :)
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19:46<@SmatZ>yeah, now I have lib32 and lib64 :)
19:47<krinn>plain 32bits is still using /lib
19:47<krinn>never really get why they just don't rename /lib to /lib32 too, for historical purpose maybe
19:49<@SmatZ>you can rename /lib to /lib32
19:49<@SmatZ>as long as you provide symlink /lib -> /lib32 :)
19:49<krinn>i'm not old & crazy enough to remove it
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20:00<@SmatZ>good night Zuu
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20:03<krinn>night zuu
20:06<+glx>[01:28:26] <@SmatZ> Zuu: I think all amd64 CPUs could run 32bit programs (and 16bit as well) <-- except if you use a 64bit windows (for the 16bit part)
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20:10<@SmatZ>well, it still can run 16bit programs in the legacy mode
20:10<@SmatZ>(BIOS itself is 16bit)
20:10<@SmatZ>and CPU starts in 16bit real mode
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20:21<krinn>and this is a limitation by the OS not the cpu
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20:24<@SmatZ>kind of
20:24<@SmatZ>long mode doesn't allow 16bit code segments
20:24<krinn>if the cpu wasn't able to run per example 32bits code
20:24<@SmatZ>yeah :)
20:25<krinn>then you could be able to run a 32bits windows inside a virtual host on a win64
20:25<krinn> /could/ coudn't
20:26<krinn>except with emulator of course
20:26<@SmatZ>it depends what is an "emulator" :) but yeah :)
20:32<krinn>good night
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22:46<xiong>Well, I've run into a couple of harrowing issues. One was old cabeese. One was refittable engines.
22:48<xiong>I have tended to leave an old caboose on a train when doing other upgrades. After all, the older caboose is shorter -- I start in 1850 and the early cabeese are only about 1/4 tile long. But it turns out that they are also speed limited, just like cars. Again, there's the issue that a NARS car can't be autoreplaced by itself and, unlike engines, cabeese never age out and autorenew, either.
22:49<xiong>Final difficulty there is that the All Trains window does not scroll right, so it won't show the back end of a long train. I ended up sorting by maximum speed.
22:49<xiong>... Then send offenders to depot and make the replacement.
22:50<xiong>We *are* warned about the other issue in NARS docs. A regearable engine will never full load all, since the regearing is implemented as a cargo.
22:52<xiong>I changed most of my orders to full load any but I had one train that really ought to be fully loaded before unloaded: the steel mill key shuttle, which has 3 types of car and should only unload when all are full, for max production.
22:52<xiong>I ended up with a horrible, partially-timetabled order list. It works but I'd rather do it more cleanly -- and easily. But now I see it's dinnertime.
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 20 00:00:31 2011