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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-20

---Logopened Sun Feb 20 00:00:31 2011
00:30<xiong>What is the point of the tertiary industries, those that accept cargo but produce nothing? Seems that plain old towns accept goods, food, petrol anyway. Are we not paid the same for a delivery? My understanding is that acceptance is unitary; either a cargo is demanded or it is not. What don't I understand?
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03:50<@Alberth>moin andy
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04:04<@Terkhen>good morning
04:06<__ln__>yes it is
04:06<@Terkhen>:)
04:07<andythenorth>mornings
04:09<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
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04:26<zydeco>greetings
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04:27<@Terkhen>hi zydeco
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04:53<@planetmaker>good morning
05:00<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
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05:17<xiong>In the current nightly, I see a new Advanced Setting for "Automatic reversing at signals". What's more, it's Off by default. Is this the same as http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features#Vehicles (Disable Train Reverse when waiting for too long)?
05:18<xiong>If so, could someone with the knowledge update that wiki page? And I will update the link.
05:22<xiong>I also see a setting for "When paused allow". This was formerly considered a cheat. What made who change his mind?
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05:27<frosch123>cheats are things which do not work in multiplayer
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05:27<frosch123>and that is not only considered wrt. "balance" or whatever, but also wrt. the implemenation
05:30<xiong>Erm. That is... well. I argued for construction while paused the first time I played. Now, I'm used to stuttering with one finger on the pause key and the other on the tool.
05:30<xiong>What about reversing?
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05:32<frosch123>i guess it is exactly what you guessed
05:32<frosch123>though it was already possible before, just not via the gui
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05:34<xiong>frosch123, Yes, well, I knew that; which is why I wrote http://wiki.openttd.org/Disable_Train_Reversing -- so many forum threads demanding it. I should edit that page now to mention the nightly setting.
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05:35<xiong>If you can, would you edit the RF page, so that I can accurately describe the patch in the new page?
05:37<@Alberth>why not do some tests, and make the change yourself?
05:37<@Alberth>if you don't have it entirely correct, others will find that, and improve it (just like you do now)
05:39<frosch123>xiong: the complete rf page is written by users. we already "manage" the requests on flyspray.
05:39<frosch123>so either the users shall continue managing that page, or they shall delete it, as the same is on flyspray
05:39<frosch123>from my pov every effort on that page is wasted
05:39<frosch123>sorry :)
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05:40<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
05:40<Wolf01>hello
05:40<xiong>Um, the test would be to download and run every nightly build required by a binary search until I discovered which build had this feature. I already checked the changelog, didn't find it.
05:40<@Alberth>r21962
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05:40<xiong>Thank you, Alberth.
05:41<@Alberth>(the problem is much simpler if you only look at the changes of src/table/settings.h which contains all settings)
05:43<xiong>That comment upsets me. Would you like to try to understand why?
05:44<@Alberth>it was intended as a helpful explanation how to find such changes so you can find it yourself next time. Sorry if you took it as criticism, it was not intended as such.
05:49<xiong>I'd like you to understand that, while I'm no dummy, I am a rank amateur at software. I don't understand it. I don't understand the mindset of the professional software developer; it is so at odds with my own that I can't even wrap my brain around it, let alone accept it.
05:49<xiong>I'm not saying you are wrong because of that; simply that I don't read your language.
05:50<xiong>I've said this several times and in several ways; and still, I'm frequently treated not as a person completely unskilled in software (and honest about it); but as some sort of pretender to more skill than I have, or even desire to learn.
05:51<xiong>I have real skills, quite a few of them; I'm rather good at some things. Some of these skills are engineering skills; but not software engineering skills, of which I have only a tiny smattering.
05:51<@Alberth>xiong: please don't go in this direction; you don't have to explain everything
05:52<xiong>Well then; if I don't have to explain this, why do I keep getting such comments as your last? Do you not see the basic cause of my annoyance? Or are you simply indifferent?
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05:53<xiong>If a person stopped you on a streetcorner in, say, Paris; and asked for directions to the hospital in English, would you insist on giving your reply in French?
05:54<@Terkhen>xiong: because the skills you don't want to learn are the skills required to know what you were asking; pointing you in the right direction is the usual thing to do
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05:54<xiong>No disrespect is intended to French culture.
05:55<xiong>Terkhen, No; the skill required is to ask someone who knows. I cannot know everything, do everything, learn everything, or even understand everything. I've learned to accept limitations.
05:55<@Terkhen>it's okay if you don't want to learn them, but the advice is meant to be helpful
05:56<xiong>I've politely declined to become a software expert. Thank you for suggestiing it -- several months ago. I hope I can ask, politely, that you not suggest it again; I do find repeated urgings offensive. The implication is that software skills are all that matter.
05:57<@Terkhen>take the advice as you want; as I said it is given freely and is meant to be helpful
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05:57<xiong>I don't doubt that the fellow who gives directions in French means to be helpful. He may even feel that the beauty of the French language is so compelling that he cannot resist urging his querent to learn it.
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05:58<xiong>But it borders on rudeness to repeat the invitation more than 5 or 6 times.
05:59<xiong>We are not all the same. We do not all have the same skills. We do not all contribute in the same ways. The world will not be a merrier place because the guy in Marketing starts to learn how to program. Indeed, if you're not careful, he will learn just enough to break something badly.
05:59<@Alberth>xiong: I was not aware of you not wanting to understand how to do things in software development. I'll refrain from giving you such advice from now on
06:00<@Terkhen>expecting us to act as answering machines without ever trying to help you is rude, and giving someone who only tried to be helpful all of these remarks is even more rude
06:00<xiong>I respect the many talented software guys who have put so much into this game and built such an amazing thing. My respect is not feigned or trivial; I really like to play the game and I'm willing to give back in the ways I know how.
06:01<xiong>Terkhen, I don't know how to make it any plainer. You help a non-software guy by telling him the answer, baldly; not by encouraging him to learn enough about your field to answer it himself.
06:02<xiong>I realize that within software circles, it is considered core to answer a question with a question and lead your querent to start thinking for himself, to start learning his way around in the caverns of code.
06:03<@Terkhen>don't worry, I will also refrain from giving advice in the future
06:03<xiong>But if you restrict your interactions to people willing and able to learn computer programming, you will have a limited circle of friends -- and have a hard time getting a paying job, unless it's in a department where the boss does all the talking.
06:03<xiong>Advice is welcome!
06:03<@Terkhen>not if it comes with this kind of answers
06:04<xiong>It's the attempt to pull me into the world of software development that is very difficult to swallow.
06:04<@planetmaker>xiong, then don't keep asking questions where the answers can only be understood if you are willing to go at least a little bit into the direction it _has_ to come from
06:05<xiong>I'm not shouting; I'm not calling you names; I'm not talking down to you; I'm not suggesting in any way that you don't know what you're talking about; or that you haven't done fine work here.
06:05<@planetmaker>Your behaviour is less mature in this respect than that of my 4-year old daughter
06:05<@planetmaker>she has more respect wrt to answers given.
06:05<@planetmaker>back to ignore
06:05<xiong>No; your daughter screams and cries. I'm talking about this as an adult to other adults.
06:06<xiong>I'm asking for the same level of adult behavior I would expect in the workplace, when a fellow from another department asks you a question, or makes a suggestion.
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06:07<xiong>I can understand the answer "r21962". I'm not sure I need to go in any direction to grasp it.
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>he certainly does not come across as an adult ;)
06:09<xiong>A while back, a developer suggested, to me at least, that he did not feel any desire to maintain the wiki. Since most users will, indeed, have questions; and most will never take any trouble at all to understand the code; it falls on the wiki to provide user documentation.
06:09<@Alberth>xiong: I work in an environment where asking a question as answer to a question is appreciated and encouraged
06:09<xiong>Just a minute, Alberth; you caught me in the middle of a thought.
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06:10<xiong>My thought is that if devs would like others to maintain the wiki, then it seems those who maintain the wiki will not be very good at software. You give me a straight answer today; I put it in the wiki; and perhaps you will get fewer questions tomorrow. You can even tell querents to look up the answer in the wiki before pestering you.
06:10*planetmaker must be living in a similar environment like Alberth
06:11*Terkhen wants to work in an environment like that
06:11<xiong>Alberth, Are you quite sure that applies to everyone? Do you have a janitor on staff? Does he ever ask you if it's okay to unplug a box? Do you tell him to go read the changelog and he'll find out for himself?
06:12<xiong>I work with a great range of people. It never ceases to astonish me how many of them are unqualified to operate a toaster. I have learned not to try to bend other people over backwards, at least not too hard.
06:13<@planetmaker>why do you constantly try here, then?
06:13<xiong>I'm asking for a basic level of civility and common sense. Why is that wrong?
06:13<@planetmaker>trying ot oppress your twisted view of how things should be and how we should behave onto all of us
06:13<@planetmaker>not working
06:14<frosch123>xiong: http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/log/5305802f8519/src/table/settings.h <- all changes to settings
06:14<xiong>This is a public channel, presumably open to all, including rank, foolish users and visitors from Cleveland.
06:14<@Terkhen>xiong: as I said reacting with a flame after someone gives you advice is not very civic
06:14<frosch123>filtered to only settings the history of a whole year fits on a single page
06:14<xiong>"Twisted" is a biased word, planetmaker. I don't know why you would use it.
06:14*planetmaker does, though
06:15<xiong>"Flame" is a biased word, Terkhen. I'm not speaking out of anger; I'm not saying anything to belittle you, I hope. I'm speaking my mind in an adult fashion. That's a bit more than just farting obnoxiously and throwing frownies around.
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06:16<@planetmaker>sorry you fail to behave in an adult fashion
06:16<xiong>Notice the complete absence of flame words such as "bastard" and "idiot".
06:16<@Alberth>"is not very civic" is an adult fashion?
06:16<@Terkhen>it is still a flame
06:16<@planetmaker>Adults don't lecture constantly other adults how to behave
06:16<@planetmaker>Especially not in their own 'living room'
06:16<xiong>Everytime someone disagrees with you, it's a flame?
06:17<xiong>Or only when I disagree with you?
06:17<xiong>Alberth, In what way do you feel I've been uncivil?
06:17<@Alberth>you try to tell others how to behave
06:17<@Terkhen>should we keep lists of people that does not have a programming background and strongly reacts if you give them advice while trying to be helpful?
06:17<@Terkhen>otherwise we have no way of knowing this
06:17<xiong>planetmaker, This is not your living room. It's a public channel on FreeNode. People do expect to participate in discussion here, even if they are not developers.
06:18<xiong>Terkhen, You keep trying to recast this as 'advice'.
06:18<@Terkhen>what it is then?
06:18<@Alberth>just take advice as helpful. If you don't want the advice, simply ignore it. Don't make such a big problem out of it.
06:18<@planetmaker>and we expect people to show a certain attitude and a willingness to receive advice. And not tell us off for giving advice or how we give them
06:18<xiong>The comment to which I took exception was a direction to a piece of code.
06:18*__ln__ isn't on FreeNode.
06:19<xiong>That's not advice.
06:19<@Terkhen>that's advice
06:19<xiong>No; advice is stuff like "Don't go out there; there's a guy with a machine gun in the hallway" or "Ask the boss for a raise today; he's in a good mood."
06:19<@Alberth>__ln__: they seemed to have thanged the login policy last week
06:20<@Terkhen>"you can find what you are looking for here"
06:20<xiong>Advice is not "Go look up the answer you seek inside this piece of code here: ..."
06:20<@planetmaker>how is that different?
06:20<@Alberth>xiong: that was not the advice I gave you, it was "if you want to find it your self the next time, this and this is what you can do"
06:21<xiong>If you refer to a source that is written in computer code, then you are not revealing the answer. Please try to understand: I don't read your language.
06:21<@Terkhen>it is still an advice
06:21<@Terkhen>a piece of information, given freely while trying to be helpful in what you were doing
06:21<@planetmaker>xiong, your problem. Still advice. Something you deliberately reject to even see
06:22<xiong>I don't want to mince words endlessly about the meaning of the word "advice". Please try to understand that all of this is less based in some sort of abstract, objective fact and much more in terms of how others see you.
06:22<@planetmaker>But then abusing us that we're not even trying to be helpful - that's anything but mature and _very_ rude
06:22<xiong>planetmaker, I don't understand your code.
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06:22<@Terkhen>so Alberth should have taken his crystal ball to guess that
06:22<@planetmaker>yes, your problem. Not every advice given is understood or understood immediately
06:22<xiong>No abuse is here. I'm taking pains to explain myself just as politely as possible. How can I do that better?
06:23<@planetmaker>by shutting up and not abusing helpful and friendly people and not berating them how to behave differently, to you in particular
06:23<xiong>Alberth *did* give me the useful bit of info I asked for. I don't understand why you are speaking of his "advice".
06:23<@planetmaker>if you can't handle it, it's your problem, not ours
06:24<xiong>planetmaker, No, that's really not how getting along with other people works. Sometimes, people are going to be offended by you, even if you don't feel they should be.
06:24<@Terkhen>"thanks, but code is not my thing, I'll keep myself to the commit log and asking questions here if I don't find something", for example
06:24<xiong>It's okay to say, "I'm offended". It's good to say why. It's best to hear people when they say these things.
06:24<@Alberth>xiong: you said you looked in the changelog, so obviously you had a desire to find the revision yourself. I just gave you a tip how to do that in a more efficient way
06:25<__ln__>xiong: Sticking to off-topic things is a good way to make life here easier.
06:25<xiong>You are still trying to justify. Why not accept that I'm offended? There is no point in trying to fix blame.
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06:26<@Terkhen>I just think you have no reasons to be offended
06:26<xiong>You are arguing mightily that I cannot be offended; or, if I am, that I must be wrong. There is no absolute standard here.
06:26<@planetmaker>except yours?
06:26<xiong>I have said, many times, that I have very few software skills -- from your viewpoint, none.
06:26<xiong>I'm simply asking that you respect this.
06:27<xiong>This channel is not #openttd-development or #openttd-software. It's just #openttd. If you seriously expect all discussion to revolve around the software, then why not say so?
06:28<xiong>That's a rhetorical question.
06:28<@Terkhen>xiong: so... since we don't know what might offend or not offend you a priori, what should we do? not answer to you at all?
06:28<@planetmaker>I can only respect that (and you) when you start to respect our effort and not abuse us for at least trying to be helpful. We have no obligation towards you at all.
06:28<xiong>Well, no; you don't know, a priori. That's why we're having this chat. I'm hoping that you now have a better idea of the way I feel about it.
06:29<@Terkhen>by starting a hour long flame
06:29<@planetmaker>@kban xiong come back when your ego shrunk and you're humble enough to accept free advice as what it is: free information you can do with what you like. But expressing offence at friendly and free advice is offending
06:29-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~xiong@netblock-68-183-230-138.dslextreme.com] by DorpsGek
06:29-!-xiong was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [come back when your ego shrunk and you're humble enough to accept free advice as what it is: free information you can do with what you like. But expressing offe]
06:29<@planetmaker>sorry.
06:29<@planetmaker>hm. message truncated
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06:40<TrueBrain>xoing still being annoying? Damn ... he has a long breath :p
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06:41<@Alberth>he is make good progress in making sure nobody will help him with anything :)
06:41<@planetmaker>quite. Most of his talking is telling people how to (not) give him advice.
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06:42<TrueBrain>Alberth: euh, he managed to do that his first day here. So I truly wonder why you guys still try :D
06:43*Alberth believed in second chances
06:44<@planetmaker>note the past tense? ;-)
06:44<TrueBrain>also in hunderd chances? :)
06:45<TrueBrain>amasing how a person can rant for hours (if you concat it together, it is hours) about him not being replied to in the exact form as he visualised it :)
06:45<@Terkhen>I was just annoyed because he reacted that way to helpful advice
06:45<@Terkhen>that's one of the things I most enjoyed (and abused a bit :P) when I first came here
06:45<@planetmaker>well, yes. That is his problem and what makes him so ueber-annoying
06:46<@planetmaker>you abused the advice here? ;-)
06:47<@Terkhen>yes, I remember asking a lot of questions about vehicle and GUI code, either here or in the forums
06:47<@planetmaker>I think it's normal that a person new to a community has more questions than people around longer who know already where to look for answers
06:48<@planetmaker>I don't want to remember all the stupid questions I did back then. I didn't even know svn when I started :-P
06:48*Terkhen does remember, but he is not mentioning them :P
06:48<@planetmaker>:-P
06:49<TrueBrain>ludde never wanted to help me out ... I always was forced to read the code :p
06:50<Zuu>Poor TrueBrain :-)
06:50<TrueBrain>:D
06:50<TrueBrain>not really, but I just wanted to mention I am that long here :p
06:51<@Terkhen>:)
06:52<TrueBrain>now I feel uber-cool :D
06:52<@Terkhen>:D
06:52<@planetmaker>:-)
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i tried to play Age of Empires II, but somehow the AI almost always gives up after like 1 minute...
06:56<@Terkhen>it knows that it faces certain doom? :P
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'm a really bad player :p
06:57<@Alberth>even the bad guys at TV shows continue until the last minute :p
06:57<@planetmaker>but only because they know they'll die no matter what. So they can cause as much damage as possible ;-)
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>... the problem is that i don't remember this happening back then when the game was new
06:58<Wolf01>[12:56:50] <Eddi|zuHause> i'm a really bad player :p <- then it let you win, like my grandma when we played table games
06:58<@Terkhen>maybe there is a bug in one of the patches applied since then?
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever applied patches
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>this is still my old installation copied over to linux
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>but like 5 out of 6 enemies give up immediately
06:59<__ln__>a-ha, it's linux that makes microsoft AI self-destructive
06:59<@Terkhen>strange... maybe it is relying in some OS library that was changed, but this sounds too farfetched
07:00<@Terkhen>heh :D
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07:13<Eddi|zuHause>man... i totally can't read long posts anymore... i have like an attention span of 5 lines, and find myself just scrolling over the rest to the next post...
07:13<@planetmaker>:-D Impatient old man, you ;-)
07:14<@planetmaker>settings posting?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i'm turning 30 this year.
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's all going downhill from there.
07:14<Zuu>Oh, that's old ;-)
07:14<@planetmaker>tsk. Young kitten!
07:15*Zuu is feeling old as many of his friends start to get children
07:15<@planetmaker>yeah, that happens
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>strangely, in my extended family a lot of people are around the same age, but only one of them has children yet
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's weird, there's this "clear" scheme of "generations", the "grandparents" are now around 90, the "parents" are around 50-60, the "[former] children" are around 25-35, and then there's this "half-way generation" of "new children" who're about 10-12 which are totally isolated
07:20<Zuu>Well it is still only a minority of my same-aged friends.
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>my oldest cousin has kids, but none of my other cousins or siblings
07:21<LordAro>moin all
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07:33<@Terkhen>hi LordAro
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07:37<Nite>Hi
07:37<@Terkhen>hi Nite
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07:38<Nite>any new intresting servers up?
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08:06<Chaot_s>hi all,
08:06<@Terkhen>hi Chaot_s
08:07<Chaot_s>Is there someone who can help me with openttd 1.0.5 (linux CentOS) the server works in basic, though the gamespeed is wierd.
08:07<Chaot_s>when connecting the trains jump on the map
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08:08<@Terkhen>that happens to me when the connection is lagged
08:08<Chaot_s>the server is 8x 3Ghz @ 4Gb ramm and has a 100/100Mbit uplink
08:09<Chaot_s>bandwith is 3.3Mb/s fron server to me, and 240Kb/s form me to server.
08:09<@Terkhen>are you and the server in the same local network?
08:09<Chaot_s>it's in a datacenter, ping is 17ms
08:09<@Terkhen>hmm... strange
08:09<Chaot_s>server is neat idle :D
08:09<Chaot_s>*near
08:09<@planetmaker>and how many vehicles?
08:09<@planetmaker>and map size?
08:09<TrueBrain>Terkhen: how ever lagged the connection is, trains always move at client-speed :)
08:10<TrueBrain>(only human-actions and some minor stay-alive is sent over the connection ;))
08:10<Chaot_s>okay, 1 i tested openttd on windows in a amd 25000 512Mb virtualbox
08:10<Chaot_s>that did work fine
08:10<@planetmaker><planetmaker> and how many vehicles?
08:10<@planetmaker><planetmaker> and map size?
08:10<Chaot_s>same game, no problem, sometimes slow due to the vpc
08:11<Chaot_s>map size is 2048X2048
08:11<@planetmaker>in other words: HUGE
08:11<@Alberth>wooow
08:11<TrueBrain>so the client machine is too slow :p
08:11<Chaot_s>and there are about 1200 vehicles
08:11<@Alberth>woooooooow !
08:11<@planetmaker>yeah. Too slow :-)
08:11<@Alberth>have a look at cpu load :)
08:12<TrueBrain>(cpu load on the client that is, your server is fine :))
08:12<@planetmaker>network games have a certain overhead on CPU usage which single player has not
08:12<Chaot_s>why did it work in a vpc (2.5Ghz 512Mb XP)
08:12<@Terkhen>TrueBrain: vehicles went slow for me also some time ago, traceroute indicated that packages were lost somewhere in the middle
08:12<Chaot_s>and why doesn't it on a 8x 3Ghz with 4Gb :D
08:12<TrueBrain>Terkhen: then they go slow, yes; clients are send a: go to next frame packet
08:12<@Terkhen>after changing the server port to something higher, the problem stopped
08:12<@Alberth>Chaot_s: OpenTTD uses a single core
08:12<TrueBrain>when they get lost, or have trouble reaching their destination, your client starts to do weird stuff, very true :)
08:13<TrueBrain>Terkhen: but that is very exceptional :D
08:13<Chaot_s>i know, its only single core :D
08:13<@Terkhen>yes, it happened to me twice, and the same spanish ISP was involved in both cases
08:13<Chaot_s>local desktop is 4x 3.06Ghz xeon
08:13<Chaot_s>only 1 core loads up
08:13<TrueBrain>Terkhen: QoS FTW :)
08:14<@Terkhen>I don't know why changing the port to something higher worked, I guess they limit small numbers somehow
08:14<Chaot_s>seems like i'm just messing up then
08:14*Terkhen knowlegde of networking is quite sketchy
08:14<Chaot_s>the server is in poersonal controll
08:14<@Alberth>or some ISP
08:14<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: when your map is huge, and you have a lot of trains, clients have a hard time doing the required calculations
08:14<TrueBrain>in result, they slow down, they are kicked from the server, etc etc
08:14<@Terkhen>Chaot_s: what does traceroute to the server says? but yes, it is probably a map size problem
08:15<@planetmaker>Chaot_s, and if you start the server on your local machine?
08:15<@planetmaker>And possibly another client?
08:15<@planetmaker>Having 4 cores it should work nicely
08:15<Chaot_s>okay, let me tell me what i have done, that might explain my problem more :D
08:16<Chaot_s>1 set up dedicated server in Vbox 2.5Ghz and 512Mb ramm (XP) we started playing, map 2048X2048 3 remote clients, 1 on lan of the server.
08:16<Chaot_s>we build and build no problem
08:17<Chaot_s>i decided that the bandwith was to high and anted to host the server in the Datacenter.
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08:18<Chaot_s>saved the game, created a user account for openttd, downloaded the tgz, extracted it, created the .openttd folder and put in a adapted configuration.
08:18<Chaot_s>then started it up and its hell not playable :D
08:18<Chaot_s>you would say its all improvement :D
08:18<Chaot_s>2.5ghz old amd --> 3.00 Ghz Xeon.
08:18<Chaot_s>512Mb --> 4gb...
08:19<TrueBrain>do all 3 clients experience the problem, or only you?
08:19<Chaot_s>30/2Mbit --> 100/100Mbit
08:19<Chaot_s>jups all have the same isseu
08:19<TrueBrain>I would hate Terkhen to be right :p
08:20<+glx>server too slow ?
08:20*Terkhen whistles innocently
08:20<Chaot_s>tracing
08:20<Chaot_s>nothing wierd :D
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08:20<Chaot_s>8hops,
08:20<Chaot_s>slowest is 16ms
08:21<Chaot_s>bandwith is tested too
08:21<Chaot_s>server has a base load of 0.03
08:21<Chaot_s>(avg 15 min)
08:22<+glx>server does everytyhing clients do
08:22<@Alberth>you do testing at the ports used by Openttd ?
08:23<@Alberth>ie some ISPs severely limit traffic at anything else than the usual ports, like 80
08:24<Chaot_s>opend firewall tcp / udp port 3979
08:24<Chaot_s>no limiting aplied :)
08:25<Chaot_s>i'll check if i can put apache on the openttd port for a minute
08:26<Chaot_s>so i can check actual bandwith on tcp 3979
08:26<Chaot_s>maybe just compile the damn thing
08:26<Chaot_s>and not use the default provided executable :D
08:27<@Alberth>shouldn't make much difference
08:28<Chaot_s>what file would you download for a server runnin CentOS 5.5
08:29<Chaot_s>uname -a
08:29<Chaot_s>Linux server01.xxxx.nl 2.6.18-194.32.1.el5 #1 SMP Wed Jan 5 17:53:09 EST 2011 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
08:30<@Alberth>I'd guess a generic unix binary for your processor, but not sure, I only work with trunk
08:30<@Alberth>and thus build it myself several times a day
08:31<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: what is the IP of your server where OpenTTD is running now, and which version? (feel free to PM it)
08:33<Chaot_s>TrueBrain : its comming in pm. (who wants it can ask here for the ip)
08:33<@planetmaker>you want help, though
08:34<Chaot_s>i know though when 5 people help... and there are 120 users...
08:34<Chaot_s>i'll keep ip's hidden as much as posible.
08:35<TrueBrain>belgium, could have guessed with "ip's" :D
08:35<Chaot_s>my irc ip is something different then the other ip's :D
08:35<Chaot_s>and true i'm connecting from a belgium ip :D
08:36<+glx>oh this nice country with limited internet access ;)
08:36<TrueBrain>and your native language is not english :)
08:36<+glx>(and expensive)
08:36<Chaot_s> it's dutch indeed :D
08:36<TrueBrain>Plural of IP is IPs, not IP's
08:37<Chaot_s>just for testing, i fired up a 64x64 map
08:37<TrueBrain>and is that faster?
08:37<Chaot_s>and it bloody fast :D
08:37<+glx>what was previous mapsize ? 2048x2048 ?
08:37<TrueBrain>yes
08:37<+glx>lol
08:37<TrueBrain>with 1000 trains
08:37<+glx>no wonder it was slow
08:38<TrueBrain>nobody is surprised, but okay :p
08:38<TrueBrain>which version Chaot_s?
08:38<Chaot_s>1.0.5
08:38<Chaot_s>i know that the map wass hughe :D
08:39<@planetmaker>2k^2 with 1k trains... is slow. I couldn't connect to the last public server game for two weeks.
08:39<+glx>anyway is all clients feel slow, it's the server, if only one client is slow it's kicked
08:39<TrueBrain>hosted at EVO? :p
08:39<@planetmaker>But they reached a new record... on a 512^2 map or so
08:39<@SmatZ>~2600 trains :)
08:39<Chaot_s>though then please explain me why it works in a lame old amd2500 running an Vbox with XP and not on a dedicated server...
08:39<@planetmaker>2553 trains, yes :-)
08:39<TrueBrain>did you try reloading it on the vbox? :)
08:40<Chaot_s>because.. if the unix binary is slower, i'll just put windows in a vbox and host that way :D
08:40<@planetmaker>100 trains can make a huge difference
08:40<@planetmaker>if the cpu is approx at its limits
08:41<TrueBrain>hmm, lol, I don't have 1.0.5 :D
08:41<Chaot_s>----total-cpu-usage---- -dsk/total- -net/total- ---paging-- ---system--
08:41<Chaot_s>usr sys idl wai hiq siq| read writ| recv send| in out | int csw
08:41<Chaot_s> 6 0 91 3 0 0| 43k 190k| 0 0 | 0 0 |1034 302
08:41<Chaot_s> 0 0 100 0 0 0| 0 0 |1373B 3498B| 0 0 |1054 1184
08:42<Chaot_s>the system is idle :D
08:43<@planetmaker>Chaot_s, and server running / clients connected?
08:43<Chaot_s>this is with the 64x64 map loaded
08:43<TrueBrain>grrr @ my own abilities :(
08:43<@planetmaker>well. 64^2 is boring.
08:43<Chaot_s>i'll load the 2048X2048 map and see again :D
08:43<TrueBrain>keeps giving me protocol errors :p
08:43<@planetmaker>Fire up your problem game
08:43<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, just download the binary :-P
08:44<Chaot_s>----total-cpu-usage---- -dsk/total- -net/total- ---paging-- ---system--
08:44<Chaot_s>usr sys idl wai hiq siq| read writ| recv send| in out | int csw
08:44<Chaot_s> 6 0 91 3 0 0| 44k 190k| 0 0 | 0 0 |1034 305
08:44<Chaot_s> 35 1 64 1 0 0|1544k 0 | 25k 1277k| 0 0 |1424 831
08:44<Chaot_s> 40 2 57 1 0 1|1160k 0 | 22k 1258k| 0 0 |1404 805
08:44<Chaot_s> 41 1 56 1 0 0| 544k 584k| 22k 1037k| 0 0 |1273 798
08:44<Chaot_s> 39 2 59 0 0 0| 0 0 | 11k 425k| 0 0 |1068 742
08:44<TrueBrain>planetmaker: ack
08:44<TrueBrain>4.4 MiB map :D
08:44<Chaot_s>with the 2048X2048 map
08:44<Chaot_s>loaded now
08:44<TrueBrain>rusn fine
08:45<TrueBrain>trains are stuck, but okay :p
08:45<Chaot_s>remember that was the first openttd game ever plaind by us 4 :D
08:45<TrueBrain>but seriously, game runs fine
08:45<Chaot_s>*played
08:46<Chaot_s>indeed now it does :S
08:46<Chaot_s>its getting more lag now
08:46<Chaot_s>server <--> clinet is ~3.4Kb/s
08:47<TrueBrain>OpenTTD uses almost no bandwidth
08:47<TrueBrain>haha, my autosave is on :D
08:47<TrueBrain>lets not do that :D
08:48<andythenorth>@seen DanMacK
08:48<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 15 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Good representation of a GP40-2
08:49<TrueBrain>so sorry Chaot_s, but your game runs fine :)
08:49<TrueBrain>but it is kind of big
08:50<Chaot_s>still performance of the game is a lot slower than when it was hosted in a Vbox :D
08:50<TrueBrain>Terkhen: and FYI, his server is a few blocks next to the one OpenTTD has atm, so I doubt it is a connection issue on the side of the server ;)
08:50<Chaot_s>TrueBrain : would you care to test that maybe?
08:50<TrueBrain>test what, sorry?
08:51<Chaot_s>the same game then hosted in a vbox.
08:51<TrueBrain>if you ahve an IP, sure
08:51<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, except when it gets 'spikes' ;-)
08:51<TrueBrain>but realise one thing about OpenTTD: 1 or 2 trains more, can make a HUGE difference in performance
08:51<Chaot_s>i'm curious if the game has the same slow performance :D
08:51<TrueBrain>at there is a balance point, where server and/or client no longer keeps up
08:52<Chaot_s>i need to reload the firewall, back in some short time :D
08:53<TrueBrain>yeah, going to do a number 2, so take your time
08:53<TrueBrain>(TMI?)
08:53<andythenorth>take the laptop with you :P
08:53<andythenorth>keep us informed of progress
08:54*andythenorth has a windmill
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08:55<Zuu>cool, a real windmill?
08:55<andythenorth>erm
08:55<andythenorth>no
08:55<andythenorth>pixels
08:56<Zuu>oh ok. Have read about somewhere someone living in a windmill on the countryside here. :-)
08:56<@Alberth>fits nicely next to the biorefinery :)
08:57*andythenorth thinks industries should be able to trigger 'close and build new industry' event
08:57<andythenorth>on the current production change cb
08:58<@planetmaker>pony?
08:58<@Alberth>an 'upgrade' kind of thing?
08:58<andythenorth>it's a pony :|
08:58<@planetmaker>yeah, that'd make sense, Alberth :-)
08:58<andythenorth>in theory it's simple
08:58<andythenorth>but in implementation I suspect not
08:59<andythenorth>copy the contents of all the industry tiles to memory, demolish the industry, try and build a new one, if building fails, rebuild the old one and populate the tiles with contents of memory
08:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the only problem with your ponies I have are that they usually make sense and feeding all needs more time than there is :-P
08:59<@Alberth>the question is whether the new industry is really a different industry
08:59<yorick>are newgrf_ports in trunk yet?
08:59<andythenorth>but there are heinous complications with this one
08:59<@planetmaker>Alberth, different layout would suffice, I think
08:59<andythenorth>this one is more of a unicorn
09:00<@planetmaker>but then one could implement time-changing layouts
09:00<@Alberth>planetmaker: that would make sense
09:00<@planetmaker>like mine growing bigger etc
09:00<andythenorth>how to deal with all the things newgrf authors might do with cb28, 2f etc?
09:00<@Alberth>mountains grow? :p
09:00<andythenorth>either the code ends up special-cased to death, or this one isn't possible :D
09:01<@planetmaker>what is 2F?
09:01<andythenorth>something to do with tiles
09:01<TrueBrain>andythenorth: argh, you reminded me of a xkcd, but I can't find it ....
09:01<andythenorth>"let me look for you" :P
09:01<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Custom_shape_check_2F_
09:01<@Alberth>yorick: some parts are, but progress is halted, it seems
09:01<andythenorth>hmm
09:02<andythenorth>maybe....
09:02<andythenorth>no
09:02<andythenorth>bad idea
09:02<yorick>ok
09:02<@planetmaker>probably the better idea would be a callback to upgrade the industry, though
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09:02<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: this is much slower for me :)
09:02<andythenorth>it's far harder to make suggestions for stuff where you've actually read the code :(
09:02<Zuu>I guess the problem is that it is soo complex that there is low interest of people to write NewGRF airports to keep the people working on it motivated?
09:03<TrueBrain>I guess the server now has a hard time keeping up
09:03*andythenorth wishes newgrf ports would move on a bit :(
09:03<andythenorth>or...we agree to do something worse instead
09:03<andythenorth>but it gets done
09:03<Chaot_s>this server is indeed useing 100% cpu curently
09:03<Chaot_s>though the game here runs smooth
09:03<yorick>state machine for ships might be nice too
09:03<TrueBrain>so there you have it :) Your map is too big :p
09:03<Chaot_s>moving mous and the screen folows fluently :D
09:03<@planetmaker>yorick, yes, might be.
09:03<andythenorth>not-fricking-stupid stations at water industries would be nice :P
09:04<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: client-side actions
09:04<@Alberth>Zuu: the spec misses the concept whether an aircraft is flying or taxi-ing at a path iirc
09:04<yorick>also someone should update that regional yapf patch 10000 revisions
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09:05<Chaot_s>TrueBrain : so the game is fast due to me being on the local lan?
09:06<TrueBrain>fasterish
09:06<TrueBrain>you can change ... net_frame_freq? I believe
09:06<TrueBrain>to 2 or something
09:06<TrueBrain>which improves it all a tiny bit
09:06<TrueBrain>but ... you just have too many trains :p
09:06<Chaot_s>i see trains driving fluently now, no delay's no jumps nothing :D
09:07<TrueBrain>and here it is very laggy :p
09:07<Chaot_s>when connected to the server in the DC it jumps 1 square at a time :D
09:07<Chaot_s>seems like i'm to demanding :D
09:07<TrueBrain>1 square? That is really insane ...
09:07<TrueBrain>then again, you connect from telenet
09:08<TrueBrain>like .. get a real ISP
09:08<Chaot_s>TrueBrain : i know telenet does suc...
09:08<TrueBrain>telenet is known to ... 'shape' traffic
09:08<Chaot_s>though i never have any problems
09:08<TrueBrain>put your OpenTTD server at port 80, might help :p
09:09<@Alberth>Chaot_s: correction, you never HAD any problems :)
09:09<Chaot_s>i'm running a ircd in house and there are some 40 people connected to the network.
09:09<Chaot_s>indeed, though i installed everything myself
09:09<Chaot_s>with good quality coax and cisco stuff :D
09:09<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: telenet is one of those providers of which is known they do P2P traffic shaping. In their own words: to not influence the rest of the network while people use torrent
09:10<Chaot_s>only thingh they provide is the modem :D
09:10<TrueBrain>in reality, it means that everything connecting to non-normal ports are shaped heavily
09:10<Chaot_s>glasnost test's didn't show trafic shaping :D
09:11<TrueBrain>I have traffic dumps, where we see random RSTs and lost of SYNs ...
09:11<TrueBrain>but okay :)
09:11<TrueBrain>it is telenet :D
09:11<Chaot_s>nice to know that :D
09:11<Chaot_s>i think theey only do it when thier links are overloaded :D
09:11<TrueBrain>either way, OpenTTD is not built for 2048^2 with 1000+ trains :)
09:11<Chaot_s>for sure i never had any shaping isseus.
09:12<TrueBrain>yeah, they are overloaded from 0:00 till 23:59
09:13<Chaot_s>TrueBrain : on the helpdes service i have to say you are right :D
09:14<Chaot_s>about the connection it self... i do p2p, i run an ircd leafserver, i have openvpn links to 4 locations and for real... never a problem
09:14<Chaot_s>p2p / vpn file transfers only run at night though :D
09:14<TrueBrain>don't fancy going into this any more, but ask yourself this: woudl you notice a delay in any of those?
09:15<TrueBrain>search the internet, it is well documented how telenet shapes 'p2p' traffic (where p2p in their book is everything that runs on ports outside the normal ones :p)
09:15<Chaot_s>TrueBrain i would not detect that in plain sight indeed :D
09:15<TrueBrain>OpenTTD is a bit more realtime demanding
09:15<TrueBrain>one of the packets being sent by the server is: continue to the next frame
09:15<TrueBrain>which causes updates of all locations of all objects
09:15<Chaot_s>16ms link to the server should be fast enough?
09:16<TrueBrain>either way, it runs smooth here @ your DC, and very very poor @ your home
09:17<TrueBrain>for you in reverse :) Pick your poison :)
09:17<Chaot_s>if it realy is shaping i'll put the data in a vpn tunnel :D
09:17<Chaot_s>it ads a 2ms delay thoogh
09:17<Chaot_s>sorry for my poor englinsh btw :D
09:18<TrueBrain>latency is not a real issue for OpenTTD
09:18<TrueBrain>as long as it is below 0.5s or something :p
09:18<TrueBrain>ja joh, je engels is echt super slecht
09:18<@planetmaker>:-P
09:18<Chaot_s>lol @ TrueBrain where are you from?
09:18<TrueBrain>why do people who speak perfectly fine english always excuse for their poor english
09:18<Chaot_s>and what provider would you suggest :D
09:18<TrueBrain>and those who speak very poor english, always act like they know how it is done
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: because they have better manners than native speakers
09:19<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, that's better than those who write bad, know that, and care shit
09:19<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: LW is fine, ansich
09:19<@Alberth>same reason why people that have no clue claim all kind of shit, and people that do know are very reluctant to pick sides :)
09:20<Chaot_s>LW? (sorry ben een import belg)
09:20<TrueBrain>otherwise I would suggest http://www.cillix.nl , but that is only because I work there :p
09:20<TrueBrain>LeaseWeb, where your current server is at :p
09:20<Chaot_s>indeed :D
09:20<Chaot_s>that's not hard to find though :D
09:21<Chaot_s>i used to have onsneteindhoven. 100/100Mbit fiber
09:21<Chaot_s>between LW<--> Eindhoven i could handle 9.7Mb/s constantly :D
09:21<TrueBrain>if you take any hosting in The Netherlands, take any in Amsterdam and/or Haarlem. Using anything not there is STUPID :p
09:21<Chaot_s>pure lan speeds :D
09:22<TrueBrain>(you add 10ms latency for 2 euro less)
09:22<TrueBrain>like fueling your car in Germany because it is cheaper there, while it takes you 100km to drive there
09:22<Chaot_s>yups :D
09:23<Chaot_s>i have leaseweb due to a total package :D there are 17 servers running there :D
09:23<TrueBrain>I hope you have a decent SLA :p
09:23<Chaot_s>i can go there when i like :)
09:24<Chaot_s>eighter make a phone call, or loging online and make a reservation.
09:24<TrueBrain>colocated at LeaseWeb? Explains at least why I didn't understand the location :p
09:24<Chaot_s>lol :D
09:24<Chaot_s>i use to live in The hague.
09:24<Chaot_s>*used
09:25<Chaot_s>from there Ams telecity2 seemed the best option
09:25<TrueBrain>TC2 is expensive :p
09:25<TrueBrain>for years we were in Redbus, but they are freaking expensive now too ... very happy that we are in EVO now :)
09:25<Chaot_s>i know, though they provide what they tell you :D
09:26<TrueBrain>(not via LW btw :p)
09:26<Chaot_s>most of the time when i have a problem with one of the server i'll just call them and ask nice if they want to help
09:26<Chaot_s>it has never been a problem.
09:27<Chaot_s>haven't seen the servers for over 2 year now :D
09:27<TrueBrain>at least means you don't run Windows :p
09:27<Chaot_s>nope :D
09:27<TrueBrain>for a few years we were hosted at Eweka DC; we always had the most fun ... I visited there once a year or whatever
09:28<TrueBrain>mostly hardware replacement or adding
09:28<TrueBrain>but I always ran into this person who always seems to be there
09:28<TrueBrain>he had a Windows machine
09:28<TrueBrain>had to travel once a month to fix what-ever
09:28<TrueBrain>so much fun :D
09:28<Chaot_s>desktop is mixed :D (w7-ultimate xp-pro centos / fedora) servers are all Centos 5.5
09:28<Zuu>Why do you physcally need to go there and not just remote-login to the windows machine?
09:29<Chaot_s>Zuu : because of the asses that keep trying to login via RDP and finaly manage to crsh the rdp listner/..
09:29<TrueBrain>Zuu: a very nice example: 3 months ago Windows had an update
09:29<TrueBrain>when you ran it, and rebooted
09:29<TrueBrain>your gateway was lost
09:30<TrueBrain>*poef*
09:30<TrueBrain>gone
09:30<TrueBrain>what happened? Well, before the patch, gateway was defined as follow: \n<ip>\n
09:30<TrueBrain>after the patch, it only read the first line
09:30<Chaot_s>TrueBrain : that hapens everywhere :D
09:30<TrueBrain>which basically means you need KVM to fix that :p
09:30<TrueBrain>admitally, I do manage a few windows machines, but they are all virtualized via Xen
09:31<TrueBrain>so I just login to Xen, and fix the freaking issue :)
09:32<Zuu>Sonuds like a good deal :-)
09:32<Chaot_s>ip kvm's rule!
09:33<TrueBrain>expensive, but yes
09:33<TrueBrain>I like Xen much more tbh, but okay :)
09:33<TrueBrain>that comes with some extras, like moving all active VMs to other nodes, so you can pull down a broken (or about-to-be broken) node and repair it
09:33<TrueBrain>without clients ever noticing
09:34<Chaot_s>if you invest enough in the right hardware (investigate before you buy something with a hardon :)
09:35<Chaot_s>hmm and somehow i messed up my firewall rules :D
09:35<Chaot_s>if i forward public to local lan (3979) i can't connect to anything remote :D
09:35<Chaot_s>seems like i'm missing a rule somewhere :D
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10:19<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22117 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4523-ish]: CanRemoveRoadWithStop() failed for _current_company = OWNER_TOWN, and for OWNER_NONE-owned road.
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10:44*Hirundo ponders doing away with trains and building a network of HEQS industrial trams
10:46<@Terkhen>Hirundo: games like that are fun for a change :)
10:47<@planetmaker>:-)
10:47<@planetmaker>airplanes only :-P
10:48<@planetmaker>though... not on our 'stable' server
10:48<zydeco>ships only :D
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>airplanes snnoy me quickly, as airports have next to no capacity
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>*annoy
10:49<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
10:49<@planetmaker>same here
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>i tried planes in a cargodist game, and it was really hopeless
10:50<@planetmaker>they're good for some quick, esay money in the beginning (if year > 1950 or so), but otherwise.. only eye candy. No mass transport
10:52<Hirundo>I'm currently kinda struggling with a new UKRS/FIRS game, given my annual profit I can choose to buy 4 trams (total cap: 900t) or 1 train (total cap: 100t)
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>i ended up just building a huge bridge over the ocean and sending large ICE trains
10:57<@Terkhen>:)
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>what i found especially lacking was that for some real networking, the airports have way too few loading bays
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: the HEQS trams are probably seriously underpriced
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: especially because the small version and the large version cost nothing to refit
11:02<Hirundo>^^ indeed
11:10<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, a refit to another cargo type can always be argued to be for free or very cheap.
11:10<@planetmaker>After all: what difference does it make for the vehicle to transport copper ore or iron ore?
11:11<@planetmaker>No need to make it costly to change the cargo type
11:11<zydeco>but a refit from 4 wagons to 15 is different
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but a refit from 4 wagons to 15 wagons?
11:11<zydeco>oh snap
11:11<@planetmaker>:-) that *should* cost
11:11<@planetmaker>:-)
11:11<Hirundo>and a refit from 15 to 4 wagons?
11:11<@planetmaker>but a newgrf has very little chance to distinguish that
11:11<@planetmaker>lool :-)
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>really, that is exactly the problem
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>needs some kind of refit cost callback or table.
11:12<@planetmaker>it's not a heqs problem really
11:12<@planetmaker>it needs a callback for refit
11:12<@planetmaker>but that's not exactly trivial
11:13<@planetmaker>what do you give this callback as parameter?
11:13<@planetmaker>or what things do you allow in that table?
11:13<@planetmaker>so it needs good idea on the specs for that
11:24<@Terkhen>it needs wagons :)
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12:04<LordAro>hmmm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zb64y6Nvs0
12:08<Zuu>Assuming that each refit has a ID, you could send the current refit state ID to the cb? The cb returns/sets the costs of refiting to the available refits.
12:08<Zuu>All refits belong to the same NewGRF right? Or can a NewGRF add refits to a vehicle beloning to another set?
12:13<@planetmaker>Zuu, the problem is that not each refit has an id.
12:13<@planetmaker>you can refit to each refittable cargo type and then each cargotype can have a custom range of sub-cargotypes
12:14<Zuu>Hmm, but still there is a primary key so to speak composed of two ID fields?
12:14<Zuu>cargotype + sub-cargotype
12:15<@planetmaker>cargo subtype is a callback. Which makes it... interesting
12:15<@planetmaker>it can use an arbitrary action2 sequence
12:27-!-krinn [~krinn@98.227.101-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd
12:28<krinn>hi all
12:28<@planetmaker>ho
12:28<krinn>i found a bug in AICargoList() i think:)
12:29<Zuu>hej
12:29<krinn>sometimes a cargo isn't valid even it was picked from the cargolist (that should provide current ingame cargo)
12:29<krinn>local crglist=AICargoList();
12:29<krinn>chemin.cargo_fav=AIBase.RandRange(crglist.Count());
12:29<krinn>DInfo("max cargo: "+crglist.Count()+" pick="+chemin.cargo_fav,1);
12:29<krinn>DInfo("We will promote "+AICargo.GetCargoLabel(chemin.cargo_fav),0);
12:30<krinn>DInfo() just do AILog.Info()
12:30<krinn>and this sometimes fail with : We will promote (null=0x(nil)) and maxcargo report value of 11 while pick=8
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12:31<krinn>i was thinking at first it was RandRange that gave me back crglist.Count include (that is state it shouldn't, but no it's just return a valid value of 8)
12:31<Zuu>krinn: Are you sure that the cargo IDs are continues + starting at 1?
12:32<Zuu>What if valid cargo IDs are 0, 1, 5.
12:32<Zuu>THen AIBase.RandRange(crglist.Count()) will fail.
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12:32<krinn>ah yes :/
12:33<@planetmaker>quite likely that they're not continuous
12:33<krinn>good one
12:33<Zuu>Indeed
12:33<Zuu>Also I would guess they start at 0 and not 1.
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12:34<krinn>no passenger is at 0
12:34<Zuu>Hmm, though I now realize that that's not the issue as RandRange probably start at 0 too.
12:35<krinn>yep, randrange 0 - max-1
12:35<Zuu>Passenger by default is 0, but is not guaranteed to be 0.
12:35<krinn>i know, but in that game it's at 0 so i'm sure they are range 0-x
12:36<@planetmaker>it's rather uncommon to start counting at 1 - in computer sciences
12:36<Zuu>planetmaker: Yes, please tell that to Delphi :-)
12:36<Zuu>They start to count on 0 for arrays but 1 on strings. :-D
12:37<krinn>it's also easier for loops balh=0; blah < maxitem...
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12:37<@planetmaker>Zuu, sounds "interesting" ;-)
12:37<krinn>that's because they use 0 to store string lenght if i remember well
12:38<Zuu>possible
12:38<krinn>while C use 0 terminate string for that
12:38<Zuu>though that would limit the string length to 255 chars or so.
12:38<Zuu>Which IIRC is true for literals.
12:38<krinn>eheh, did you check, pascal strings ARE limit to 255 :)
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12:40<Zuu>I didn't check but I recall getting compiler errors saying that a litteral is too long.
12:40<krinn>if i remember delphi also have 0 terminate strings, but that's another string class
12:40<Zuu>Anyway I heard that the newest Delphi uses two bytes for chars.
12:41<krinn>for intl purpose ?
12:41<Zuu>Possible, but causing problem with binary formats for inter-program communication.
12:42<andythenorth>do we like the idea of player-adjustable transport rates?
12:42<krinn>what is adjustable transport rates ?
12:42<@planetmaker>I'm not that much interested in it. But that's just me
12:42<andythenorth>players can set prices
12:42<andythenorth>I think it's one more complication
12:42<andythenorth>although it's probably pretty decoupled from other stuff
12:43<krinn>looks more like a cheat
12:43<andythenorth>but would it need to be on specific routes?
12:43<andythenorth>and then that implies routes...and then...
12:43<krinn>that AI can only do pass -> pass transport = 1 :)
12:43<@planetmaker>could be used as a cheat
12:43<@planetmaker>first load every train by attracting cargo with cheap prices. Then up the delivery costs dramatically. Repeat
12:44<andythenorth>sounds like the strategy in sim city 1
12:44<andythenorth>run taxes at 100% for 11 months
12:44<andythenorth>1 month before election, drop taxes to 10%
12:44<@planetmaker>:-)
12:44<andythenorth>if the problem is that helicopters aren't profitable, what's the root cause of that?
12:44<krinn>eheh and the "omg what a long train that player have, full of coal: wait it coming to station and drop coal value to 1"
12:45<@planetmaker>capcity and travel distance?
12:45<@Terkhen>do nothing for 3 years, build a lot of stuff that no one will use in election year seems to work IRL too
12:45<@planetmaker>^^
12:45<krinn>lol
12:46<krinn>it's even simplier: do nothing for 3 years, say you will build something good at election years
12:46<krinn>but give the money to your son (not even need him to build it) & repeat
12:50<Zuu>andythenorth: Gives me an idea of an MP game where you by means of NewGRFs disable all RVs, Ships, Trains and airplanes and only have a bunch of helicopters to play with. :-)
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12:50<andythenorth>Zuu: well currently with FIRS, you can go fishing and mining with helicopters :|
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12:54<krinn>all newgrf must pickup an existing id of a vehicle to add new ones ? (i mean more replacing an existing one than adding new ones)
12:59<andythenorth>no
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13:00<krinn>there's a settings to keep default vehicle and add the new ones the newgrf have or there's nothing we can do ?
13:04<@planetmaker>it's up to the newgrf to decide
13:04<@planetmaker>most decide "trash all existing default vehicles"
13:05<Ammler>someone using ogfx nightly?
13:05<Ammler>if so, don't you miss aircraft graphics?
13:06<krinn>we should have the option to keep them :/
13:09-!-lugo [~lugo@89.238.177.145] has joined #openttd
13:26<andythenorth>krinn: they can be kept
13:26<andythenorth>you just have to use different IDs in your newgrf
13:26<andythenorth>if another newgrf disables them though, there's nothing you can do :\
13:27<krinn>i'm not making any, it's just i find a bit sad someone decide to remove others vehicle to put his
13:27<andythenorth>it was seen as useful when it was first done
13:30<@planetmaker>it wasn't possible differently actually back then
13:31<@planetmaker>and still isn't really in ttdpatch.
13:31<@planetmaker>though there are free slots, they are not enough for many vehicle sets
13:32*andythenorth had forgotten TTDP :P
13:32<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22118 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4525]: The refit window was not correctly updated after selecting with Ctrl+Click (Regiovogel).
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13:45<Ammler>you can still keep the default vehicle with the newgrf called something like that
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22119 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/ (frisian.txt tamil.txt urdu.txt):
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frisian - 48 changes by Taeke
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: tamil - 96 changes by sylvesterpious
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: urdu - 36 changes by yasirniazkhan
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13:52<krinn>Ammler, how you do that ?
13:56<@Alberth>(19:28:46) andythenorth: you just have to use different IDs in your newgrf <-- in that way
13:56<andythenorth>won't help if another newgrf disables defaults
13:56-!-Wolfsherz [~Wolfsherz@p579D670E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
13:56<@Alberth>just remove those newgrfs :p
13:57<krinn>:D
13:58<andythenorth>krinn: you're modifying an existing grf, or writing your own?
13:59<Ammler>krinn: there is a newgrf called original_engines.grf or something like that
14:00<Ammler>andythenorth: I don't think you can disable those
14:01<krinn>i'm not doing any grf, doing an ai
14:01<Ammler>the grf exists already :-)
14:01<krinn>it's just i have try a newgrf as people love to use that, it add plenty new aircraft
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14:01<krinn>but also remove original aircraft while doing it :(
14:02<Ammler>yes, that is default behavior of the engine pool feature
14:02<Ammler>that is why there is a original.grf
14:02<krinn>it was interresting for me to see how the ia is doing with having multi-choices for a vehicle
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>Prognosis for elections in Hamburg: SPD (labour): 49.6% (2008: 34.1%), CDU (conservatives): 21.2% (2008: 42.6%), Green: 11.4% (2008: 9.6%), Left: 6.7% (2008: 6.4%), FDP (liberals): 6.0% (2008: <5%)
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>SPD expected to get absolute majority
14:03*andythenorth plays a game
14:03<krinn>Prognosis for elections in Hamburg: 100% thiefs win
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14:04<DanMacK>Hey all
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: well, the hope is that they are less theives than the last guys
14:04<krinn>hi
14:04<krinn>:) Eddi|zuHause
14:05<krinn>at least you won't have sarkozi, you should consider that a hope
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14:07<@Alberth>hey DanMacK
14:14*andythenorth plays
14:14*andythenorth thinks there are not enough destinations for alcohol on this map
14:14<andythenorth>only one store :(
14:14<andythenorth>FIRS needs a pub/hotel industry
14:14<andythenorth>'coaching inn'
14:14<andythenorth>DanMacK: ^
14:15<krinn>and girls :)
14:16<@planetmaker>hm... hotel or pub might be a nice industry :-)
14:16<@planetmaker>various sizes and layouts
14:16<@Alberth>ski slope :)
14:17<andythenorth>be nice if they could expand :P
14:17<@planetmaker>;-)
14:17<@planetmaker>damn you. I more and more want to write a town set... so many possibilities there
14:18<@Alberth>luxurous resort at an island :)
14:18<andythenorth>so many industries...where to start? :o
14:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: a new town set could be the answer
14:18-!-ABCRic [~ABCRic@233.217.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:18<andythenorth>a really simple generic one...
14:19<andythenorth>like suburban renewal, but GPL and finished
14:19<andythenorth>or more likely...a really complicated, beautiful generic one
14:19<@planetmaker>"finished" ;-)
14:19<@planetmaker>but yes, such town set could be the answer.
14:20<@planetmaker>Maybe I should canibalize ttrs graphics and re-write from scratch
14:20<andythenorth>I'm not loving TTRS style
14:20<@planetmaker>and swedish houses
14:20<andythenorth>ttrs was explicitly supposed to be an upgraded style
14:20<andythenorth>so it matches nothing else ;)
14:21<@planetmaker>I don't think it does not fit. Not every building, but many do
14:21-!-Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:22<@planetmaker>however... I'm now pixel pusher
14:22-!-Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
14:22<@planetmaker>"cat printeps.tex | sed "s/FILENAME/$i/" | pdflatex | lp -P$printer" was no good choice. It prints the tex output instead of the pdf file :-P
14:23<@planetmaker>good I didn't run it on all hundred files ;-)
14:23*andythenorth starts with trams
14:23<andythenorth>trains are way too expensive
14:25<andythenorth>bah
14:25*andythenorth remembers that tram tracks were the reason for trying to pickup roadtypes
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14:28*DanMacK prods Andy back over to Roadtypes :P
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14:35<Zuu>andythenorth: Are you trying to simulate Swedish alcohol politics? ;-)
14:35<Zuu>.. only one store .. :-)
14:42<@planetmaker>how boring ;-)
14:47<krinn>lol not if it's your store
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15:29<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22120 /trunk/src/script/ (squirrel.cpp squirrel.hpp): -Change: [NoAI] Prevent AIs from getting consistently over their allowed amount of operations by subtracting the amount they went over "budget" from the budget for the next "tick".
15:46-!-Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit []
15:55<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22121 /trunk/src/network/network_command.cpp: -Fix: In case of high frame_freq one could get commands executed after a new network game was started
15:55-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@brln-4d0cd9ed.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds funny :p
15:58<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22122 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp: -Fix/change: when a NOT_REACHED in saveload can be reached due to an invalid savegame, use SlErrorCorrupt instead
16:00<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22123 /trunk/src/network/network_command.cpp: -Fix [FS#4522]: CommandQueue::Pop() did not update 'last'; popping the last item caused the queue to disconnect unless there was only one item.
16:11<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22124 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: move comment to its logical place
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16:14*andythenorth wonders if trains are even needed
16:14<andythenorth>trams only?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>you can't build that impressive looking networks with trams
16:16<andythenorth>when I allowed building some industries on very steep slopes....
16:16<andythenorth>...that was evil :o
16:18<Wolf01>'night
16:18-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host220-174-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:20<DanMacK>heh
16:23<andythenorth>DanMacK: do you think FIRS fishing grounds produce too much?
16:23<andythenorth>I need maybe 5 fishing boats for each one at the moment
16:23-!-jvkgrifone [4e2d7509@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:23<@planetmaker>how much do they produce per month?
16:24<andythenorth>45t
16:24<andythenorth>the FISH fishing boat is 3t
16:24<andythenorth>oops
16:24<andythenorth>35t
16:24<andythenorth>distance is about 25 tiles to most of the ones in my current game
16:25<@planetmaker>45t is not too much
16:25<@planetmaker>or they'll become very boring and unprofitable
16:25<jvkgrifone>hi dudes, houston, weve got a problem.... i cant get server list
16:25<TrueBrain>so why would Houston care?
16:26<@planetmaker>http://www.openttd.org/en/servers <-- seems to be up and running
16:26<@planetmaker>Must be a local network problem. Prot 3978
16:26<@Rubidium>jvkgrifone: did you ever see it?
16:26<@planetmaker>*port
16:26<@Rubidium>have you tried pressing "Find servers" a second time?
16:26<jvkgrifone>first time
16:27<jvkgrifone>i turned off fw, but nothing
16:27-!-ar3kaw [~ident@ecb187.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
16:27<@planetmaker>and your router?
16:27-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:28<jvkgrifone>well, dont konw, i found some wifi here
16:28<jvkgrifone>could it be prob?
16:28<@Rubidium>yeah, it's probably blocking everything but HTTP/DNS
16:28-!-lstor [~lstor@sos1-1x-dhcp341.studby.uio.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:29<jvkgrifone>aha, then ill try it on another comp:) thx, hope its it
16:30-!-ar3k [~ident@ecb187.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:32*andythenorth needs a new vehicle: flock of sheep
16:33<@planetmaker>:-D
16:33-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:34<@planetmaker>then please add also the Husky sled
16:35<@Terkhen>andythenorth: will it automatically get in front of people who are in a hurry?
16:35<andythenorth>certainly :P
16:36*andythenorth is now the proud owner of many fishing boats
16:36<@Terkhen>:D
16:36<andythenorth>it's a big fleet :o
16:36<andythenorth>DanMacK: the fishing boat...lacks variety
16:36<andythenorth>when you have a lot of them
16:36<andythenorth>maybe we should think about that
16:37<jvkgrifone>well, another comp, another connection, same problem - no server list
16:38<@Terkhen>same router?
16:38<jvkgrifone>no
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16:39<@Terkhen>http://canyouseeme.org/ <--- can this web "see" your server port?
16:40<jvkgrifone>it writes my ip and some commne ports¨
16:41<krinn>i think he suggest you to use the "port check" feature
16:41<jvkgrifone>do i have to enter some port to check?
16:41<@Terkhen>of course
16:41<@Terkhen>the same one you are using in your OpenTTD server
16:43<jvkgrifone>to be honest, i dont know what port iam using:)
16:43<krinn>3978 as planetmaker suggest
16:43<@Alberth>@ports
16:43<@DorpsGek>Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:43<@Terkhen>@ports
16:43<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:43<@Terkhen>heh :D
16:43<krinn>:)
16:44<@Terkhen>jvkgrifone: if it is just a wifi you "found" I doubt you lack the possibility of opening these ports
16:44<jvkgrifone>hehe, thx, i allready read it somewhere, so sorry
16:44<@Terkhen>errr, wrong double negative
16:45<jvkgrifone>Error: I could not see your service on 78.45.117.9 on port (3979) Reason: Connection timed out
16:46<krinn>eheh, bad wifi signal or a iptable set to drop packets
16:46<jvkgrifone>the same on my adsl
16:46<jvkgrifone>Wifi signal: 5of5
16:46<jvkgrifone>is there any sollution?
16:47<@Alberth>besides the obvious 'fix your setup' ? not really I am afraid
16:48<jvkgrifone>and fix your setup means change your connection?:)
16:48<@Terkhen>it means that you should open that port
16:48<@Terkhen>if the wifi is not yours, ask the owner to do that for you
16:49<jvkgrifone>but the asdl is mine
16:49<@Alberth>open the UDP and TCP ports that you need both at your firewall, and all router/modems to the internet
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16:52<andythenorth>hmm
16:52<andythenorth>fishing harbours in closed lakes remains sucky
16:52<andythenorth>no fishing grounds here :(
16:52<@planetmaker>andythenorth, consider them eye candy
16:52<@planetmaker>It's IMHO nothing to worry about
16:53<@planetmaker>and you can still build a channel
16:53-!-DanMacK [~DanMacK@bas8-london14-1279480034.dsl.bell.ca] has quit []
16:53<@planetmaker>channel? canal?
16:53<andythenorth>certainly not fixable by me :)
16:53<@Alberth>but you are a c++ guru too !
16:54<jvkgrifone>well, ports opened and no change, it seems to be disabled by the whole God
16:55<andythenorth>hmm
16:55<andythenorth>the station gui changed :o
16:55<andythenorth>missed that commit :P
16:55<@Alberth>me too :)
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16:56<@Alberth>oh, it has preview now, you mean?
16:56<andythenorth>yup
16:56<andythenorth>well, it always had preview
16:57<@Alberth>I caused that, sorry :)
16:57<@Alberth>and at some other places too
16:57<jvkgrifone>.-) Anyway, guys, thx for Your help
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17:03<Chaot_s>hmm is there a command to rename a town from the console? been searching google and some wiki's for over an hour :D
17:04<@planetmaker>on servers towns cannot be renamed
17:04<Chaot_s>thats too bad :D
17:05<Chaot_s>thats why i could not find it :D
17:05<@planetmaker>people could otherwise start a name-this-town war
17:05<Chaot_s>lol :D
17:05*andythenorth thinks bed time
17:05<Chaot_s>that would mess up a lot :D
17:05<andythenorth>good night
17:05<Chaot_s>sleep well andythenorth
17:05<@planetmaker>g'night andythenorth
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17:06<shmore>//(Offtopic)///
17:06<shmore>http://www.crashcourse.ca/blog/2010/07/blender-25-alpha-2-ubuntu-1004#comment-293
17:06<shmore>Another comment with that same viewpoint as that guy who didn't like the technical answer given to him earlier today in this channel.
17:06<shmore>I would like to thank the programmer mentality. And encourage it to never backdown.
17:06<shmore>Your example is one of the few high water marks seen today.
17:06<TrueBrain>of course it grew the other way ... itw as possible, til people abused it :p
17:06<shmore>An so it comes to the other guy, Business, the idiot, the mentality that drags us all backwards.
17:06<shmore>There getting mad, at first they ignored you but more and more there beginning to rely on you.
17:06<shmore>So they goto there tool and try to shove you down, make you into another cog in the machine.
17:06<shmore>But free software and the random internet programmer are accountable to no one.
17:06<shmore>So the business guy dominated the whole system, and just as he thought he was king, someguy tells him to read the changelog, leaks his private documents, steals all his content and breaks the fundamental rule, gives it all away for free.
17:06<TrueBrain>@kban shmore bubye
17:06-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~shmore@dhcp-0-12-17-51-3b-2d.cpe.mountaincable.net] by DorpsGek
17:06<shmore>There getting pissed, the whole system threatens to shift, its going to leave them in the dust.
17:06-!-shmore was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [bubye]
17:06<TrueBrain>they are getting more and more annoying ...
17:06<@planetmaker>one second faster :-)
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17:06<Chaot_s>lol :D
17:07<yorick>TrueBrain hasn't changed a bit, has he :P
17:07<@planetmaker>and I'm thankful for that ;-)
17:07<TrueBrain>well, tbh, I never kicked a spambot before
17:07<Chaot_s>okay, i have this stupid idea :D create a dedicated server and have lets say 30 players... what isseus would i be facing?
17:07<@planetmaker>But I think he grew one gray hair more and ten normal ones less :-P
17:07*planetmaker hides
17:08<TrueBrain>love you too planetmaker :)
17:08<Chaot_s>lol :D
17:08<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: constant wining of users :p
17:08<Chaot_s>coffee!
17:08<TrueBrain>constant coffee of users
17:08<TrueBrain>sure, what ever you want :)
17:08<yorick>make it a payserver :)
17:08<yorick>with full-time admin support and such
17:09<Chaot_s>for that whe have a no contact pollicy :D
17:09<Chaot_s>and no there is no payment :D
17:09<yorick>go make it
17:09<Chaot_s>not a market for me :D
17:10<Chaot_s>i just have a community, and a server that has a lot of spare cpu and ramm :)
17:10<TrueBrain>as long as you don't force that community to mass-suicide ...
17:11<yorick>let them abduct TrueBrain and force him to work on openttd!
17:11<Chaot_s>the game is to damned addicting :D
17:11<TrueBrain>Chaot_s: well, a true addiction is something that doesn't go away over time
17:11<TrueBrain>this will
17:12<TrueBrain>so dunno if this is addiction
17:12<TrueBrain>*debate*
17:12<yorick>no it won't, it just disappears sometimes for a couple of months
17:12<yorick>but it always resurfaces when you have the least time on your hands
17:12<Chaot_s>hmm there is so much to manage and explore in the game that it may be as boring if you want :D
17:12<yorick>the talking-train dreams signal the beginning
17:13<TrueBrain>talking-trains? Dude, that is just messed up
17:13<Chaot_s>lol!
17:13<yorick>yeah I know
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17:14<yorick>and sometimes they crash into the me-train
17:15<yorick>then it's a nightmare
17:18<Chaot_s>is there a way to have a cron job that for example pause or resumes a game?
17:18<@planetmaker>you could do that via ap+
17:18<@planetmaker>If it's just the number of players you're concerned about... use min_active_clients setting
17:19<yorick>you can use the admin interface with a script
17:21<TrueBrain>you can hire a chinese person to do it
17:21<Chaot_s>the thing is i have no clue on how openttd scale's up. I would like to have a server up and running, then make it resart every 24h
17:21<@planetmaker>the admin interface would be the best way to go
17:21<Chaot_s>without me being there. all the time :D
17:23<@planetmaker>write a script to control OpenTTD via admin interface, indeed
17:24<@planetmaker>gives you full control about it. And you could use another script running on your local machine to connect and do stuff concurrently
17:24<Chaot_s>and now with 4 players (team members that help me running their server / site) it seems to work. what would hapen if i scriptup some commands and actualy allow 32 players / company's?
17:25<Chaot_s>besides there will be limited space on a 2^10 folder :)
17:26<@planetmaker>32 companies won't work ;-)
17:27<@planetmaker>if you got a dedicated server - allowing that many clients won't be a problem
17:33<Chaot_s>if i understand the wiki correct every client should use about 1.2Kb/s that would mean that IF 30 clients constantly connected would use 90Gb a month
17:33<@planetmaker>there's no such server ;-)
17:34-!-Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
17:34<@planetmaker>which has that many clients. not even peak is it reached
17:34<@planetmaker>except in the very random exception on few well-reputed servers
17:34<Chaot_s>okay :D just checking if i can for sure publish the idea :D
17:34<@planetmaker>most of your traffic might as well come from map downloads
17:35<@planetmaker>as on every start-up of a connection is a download of the current savegame
17:35<@planetmaker>depending on the map size, a few 100kByte up to a few MByte
17:35<Chaot_s>like.. when this idea isn't going to work :D i have to tell all those people that it wont be going on :D
17:35<Chaot_s>and i would hate that :d
17:36<@planetmaker>do you have a dedicated server? And a few TB bandwidth?
17:36<@planetmaker>then it's definitely no issue
17:36<Chaot_s>we have a dedicated server that currently has a load of 0.05 (15 min avg)
17:37<Chaot_s>running a website with about 30 concurent users
17:37<@planetmaker>not sure exactly how much the openttdcoop servers use... but ... it's not even scratching any network bandwidth limits
17:37<Chaot_s>usings lats say 70Gb of the 4000Gb availeble :D
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17:43<@planetmaker>good night
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18:16<@Terkhen>good night
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18:36<vb>heeeeeeeeeelp
18:36<vb>how do i get to the town grid menu?
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