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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-22

---Logopened Tue Feb 22 00:00:40 2011
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01:16<@Terkhen>good morning
01:16<supermop>hello
01:17<Mazur>Moar ning.
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01:22<@planetmaker>moin
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03:06<dnicholls>hello
03:07<@Terkhen>hi dnicholls
03:10<dnicholls>do nightlies always have a minor version one higher than the latest stable?
03:13<@Terkhen>dnicholls: they have a version higher than the latest branch; since 1.1.0 is branched already now nightlies use 1.2.0
03:15<@Yexo>dnicholls: all work currently done in trunk is going to be part of 1.2, but not of 1.1
03:15<@Yexo>bugfixes are backported to the 1.1 branch
03:21<dnicholls>so I perform a version check in Action 7 for \dx12000000, would that match all 1.2.x stables and all nightlies built after 1.1.0 and before 1.2.0 ?
03:21<dnicholls>if*
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03:22<@Yexo>it'll match every nightly since r22083 and every 1.x.y stable with x >= 2
03:23<@Yexo>depending on the things you skip, you might need to use action9 instead of action7 though
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03:38<dnicholls>and if I want to check for r22084 or later, the Action 7 should check for versions higher than (\dx12000000 + \d22083) ?
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>use \wx1200 and \w22083
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>(well, the other way around)
03:40<dnicholls>ah I see now
03:40<dnicholls>thank you
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>(this will work until r65535, then you'll have to do it more complicated)
03:43<Eddi|zuHause>(by the current rate, that is somewhere around 20 years :))
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04:31<Capeguy>Hello, anyone here?
04:31<Capeguy>I need some help on cyclotrons...
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04:32<@Terkhen>@get -3
04:32<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
04:32<Capeguy>O_O
04:32<@Terkhen>although I have no clue of what that is (in this context)
04:33<Capeguy>Can anyone help me by sending me a copypaste file of a cyclotron?
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04:33<Capeguy>I cant get mine working with the pf.yapf tihngy set to 1/true
04:34<__ln__>wtf is a cyclotron?
04:34<Capeguy>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/01/13/fail-safe-joiners-priorities-and-the-cyclotron-example/
04:34<Capeguy>All the way down
04:34<Capeguy>It holds a SL train at full speed until there's a ML space
04:36<Capeguy>or http://wiki.openttd.org/Railway_Designs last 2 images.
04:36<Capeguy>I had that savegame, but I cant find it T_T
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04:39<@Terkhen>Capeguy: search at their wiki or at the forum for cyclotron
04:39<Capeguy>Searched. Cant find one which is compatitble with my version
04:39<Capeguy>Mine's a little older cause the new ones cant have the copypaste patch
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>there's only one solution then: build one yourself.
04:40<@Terkhen>I don't think much people will be playing with old versions here either
04:41<Capeguy>Eddi, I tried making one, with the logics and stuff like that. But it doesn't work cause of the repeative logic of the trains =X
04:42<Capeguy>Terk, yea, unless I can find the copypaste patch for the latest version.
04:43-!-zydeco [~zydeco@163.165.16.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
04:43<zydeco>greetings
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>Capeguy: afaik someone is working on updating it. need to wait a bit.
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04:46<Eddi|zuHause>don't know if chills patch pack has it
04:46<Capeguy>Yikes, I'll try and recreate a cyclotron myself
04:46<@Terkhen>but building that thing by yourself will probably be faster and you will not need to rely in a patch for playing
04:46<Capeguy>what chills pack?
04:46<@Terkhen>hi zydeco
04:49<Capeguy>Terk, what patch are you talking about?
04:51<@Terkhen>I did not mention any patch but using search you will find it in no time
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07:02<DanM>Hey all
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07:09<vb>help
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07:12<vb>anyone?
07:13<JamesG>What do you need help with?
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07:14<DanMacK>What do you need help with vb?
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07:15<@Terkhen>@get -3
07:15<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
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07:17<@peter1138>-3?
07:21<@Terkhen>I find it simpler to count its place backwards :)
07:22<vb>help
07:22<vb>so
07:22<vb>why i can't add any new grf while playing?
07:23<vb>i have some grfs but it misses something
07:24<@Yexo>because it has never been supported, it can cause any kind of problems ranging from simple graphical glitches to crashes
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>you're going to have to start a new game
07:24<@Terkhen>vb: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=51933&hilit=add+newgrf+ingame
07:24<vb>oh my
07:25<vb>but it worked before
07:25<@Yexo>no, it didn't
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>it didn't "work" before, it just did not complain enough
07:25<@Yexo>there were some cases were it worked, but it caused a lot of trouble because _most_ people didn't know when they were able to use it safely
07:25<vb>yes it did
07:25<vb>:(((((((((
07:25<@Terkhen>everything is explained at that thread :)
07:26<vb>i have the firs newgrf
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07:26<vb>but i don't have any ships to collect water stuff
07:26<@Terkhen>hmm... we should have a FAQ
07:26<perk11>vb: enable newgrf developers tools
07:26<@Yexo>we have one, or several I think
07:26<@Yexo>perk11: wrong advise
07:26<vb>how?
07:26<@Terkhen>correction, an updated FAQ
07:27<perk11>newgrf_developer_tools = true
07:27<perk11>in [gui] ection
07:27<perk11>section
07:27<perk11>of openttd.cfg
07:27<vb>ok
07:27<@Terkhen>just don't get mad when you get glitches / crashes
07:27<perk11>but use it at your own risk
07:28<vb>ok
07:28<vb>i made a backup save
07:28<@Terkhen>but yes, it's not really intended for this, it's called "newgrf developer tools" for a reason
07:28<perk11>some problems may appear after some years
07:28<@Yexo>scenario_developer might be a better setting to advise
07:29<@Terkhen>yes
07:29<@Yexo>it doesn't enable the newgrf inspect button on all kinds of windows
07:29<vb>now what ship mod i need for firs?
07:32<DanMacK>FISH is your best bet
07:33<vb>hmm
07:33<vb>let's see
07:33<vb>no errors after unpausing
07:33<vb>that's good, i added 2 new grf, fish and bauxite wagon
07:34<@planetmaker>the errors only become apparent usually after people played for (game) years
07:35<@planetmaker>and bauxite wagon... the better guess is opengfx+trains. you can disable engines, if you only need wagons.
07:35<vb>eh?
07:35<vb>i'm using the american trains, even though i don't like american stuff
07:36<@Yexo>why are you not starting a new game? apparently you're using trains you don't like and you didn't have any ships
07:36<vb>and nu tracks, which are a PAIN IN THE ass
07:36<vb>i have ships now :D
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07:36<vb>by pain in the ass i mean expensive
07:37<vb>also i played like 100 years or so
07:37<vb>only 41 counted because i used the year cheat :))
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07:45<vb>ok, so removing nu tracks while playing is not ok
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07:50<@SmatZ>removing any newgrf while playing is not ok :p
07:50<@SmatZ>(or adding)
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07:52<@SmatZ>pugi pugi!
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08:03<DanMacK>Smatz, agreed it isn't but if you do do it, be prepared for the consequences
08:04<vb>yes, 2012 is coming
08:05<Chaot_s>hi all has someone got a screnshot for a 3 track terminus i cant get the signaling right. i'm stil to damned stupid to find it out :D
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08:05<Chaot_s>been googling and wikiíng for hours now :D
08:05<@Yexo>a station with 3 tracks and 1 track in and 1 track out?
08:05<@Yexo>or something else?
08:06<Chaot_s>1 in, 1out, 3 trackstation. not ro-ro, terminus :D
08:06<perk11>I'll make it
08:07<@Yexo>you can make a terminus station with 2-track station?
08:07<@Yexo>and are you using pbs signals or block signals?
08:07<Chaot_s>i tried lots of things, they alway take the midle lane, and the second train que's right in front of it, blocking it's exit :D
08:08<@Yexo>put a pbs signal at the end of the entry and remove all signals in front of the station
08:09<vb>yeah
08:09<vb>i just discovered that
08:09<vb>trains kept blocking in stations
08:10<Chaot_s>Yexo : that sounds like a good idea, though. wont that give punishments (points) when a train is forced to turn around?
08:10<@Yexo>what kind of punishments are you thinking of?
08:10<Chaot_s>just curious :D
08:11<@Yexo>the only penalty there is for turning around is that the train takes longer to reach is destination, which means a lower payment
08:11<vb>i think i got flu
08:11<perk11>Chaot_s: http://perk11.info/tmp/station.png
08:11<Chaot_s>i'm not sure, editing openttd.cfg i saw ome thing that talked about penalty turning around.
08:11<@Yexo>that's a pathfinder penalty
08:12<Chaot_s>okay :D just asking :D
08:12<@Yexo>just ignore it as long as you don't understand it
08:12<vb>perk, i say remove those 3 signals
08:12<vb>and make the right one as one of the red ones
08:12<vb>but facing the train
08:12<@Yexo>perk11: the signals facing the station can be left out
08:12<perk11>I know
08:12<Chaot_s>hmm i cant get the image :S
08:13<@SmatZ>http://devs.openttd.org/~smatz/3roro.png 3 variants :)
08:14<@Yexo>SmatZ: bottom-left has one signal turned the wrong way
08:14<@SmatZ>oh right :)
08:14<perk11>SmatZ: and why use pbs on normal tracks?
08:15<@SmatZ>fixed, thanks :)
08:15<@SmatZ>perk11: some people do that...
08:15<perk11>and the variant with path-signals is the slowest one
08:15<@Yexo>why not? it's easier to use the same signal type everywhere, so always using pbs seems fine
08:15<@Yexo>-*=-sdfhjk
08:15<perk11>*variant with presignals is
08:17<Chaot_s>hmm, i had the uper one, wit a one way path on the exit :D
08:17<perk11>it's the worst one
08:17<Chaot_s>that one kept jaming everything in the midle lane :D
08:17<perk11>unless you have a veeery large station
08:17<Chaot_s>i'm just plaing for about 10 day's :D
08:17<perk11>but than you should make more complex, anyway
08:18<Chaot_s>ther is 530 trains for me :D
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08:18<Chaot_s>and some rather large stations, (20+tracks)
08:18<@Yexo>Chaot_s: either of those 3 will work fine, if the trains jammed on your station you didn't make it exactly like one of those
08:18<Chaot_s>fed with 5 mainlines :D
08:18<perk11>Chaot_s: good for you, I played about a month, before I found out that there are different types of signals
08:19<Chaot_s>i most of the time search for wiki's :D
08:20<Chaot_s>that tends to be helpfull a lot of time's :D
08:21<Chaot_s>perk11 : even though i couldn't load the picture, thanx for the help :D
08:21<@SmatZ>hmm why did I name it "3roro", when it is a terminus :x
08:21<Chaot_s>dame goes for SmatZ :D
08:21<Chaot_s>dame = same :D
08:21<Chaot_s>thanx :D
08:22<@SmatZ>:)
08:22<Chaot_s>hotkeys do speed up a lot too :D
08:23<Chaot_s>instead of constantly needing to click everything perk11
08:23<perk11>I know
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08:36<vb>if i set trains to never expire
08:36<vb>i will allways have them avaiable in depot to buy?
08:36<vb>i don't really want that
08:37<@Yexo>yes
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08:38<Nite>Snorre here for chance?
08:38<Chaot_s>if i split a station by removing one midle track, will that still allow me to "transfer" from one part of the station to a other part?
08:39<@Yexo>yes
08:39<Nite>yes
08:39<Chaot_s>nice :)
08:39<@Yexo>you don't even have to build the middle track, just ctrl+click when building the second part of the station
08:39<Chaot_s>got 22.000 tov coal...
08:39<Chaot_s>that needs some moving :D
08:40<Chaot_s>and no space :)
08:40<Nite>what server?
08:40<Chaot_s>personal desktop
08:40<Chaot_s>kind of getting very huge now :D
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08:41<Chaot_s>this game would be unbareble to play via lan / internet :D
08:42<Nite>stationlenght?
08:42<vb>i played on a server where i had like 5 fps
08:42<vb>trains and tracks everywhere
08:42<Nite>@ chaot_s
08:42<vb>everyone was using just 1 company
08:43<Chaot_s>2048x2048 map, with (leftovers from when it was a lan game) 524Trains of me, and 1500 in total
08:43<vb>oh yeah, and hundreds of years passed in that game
08:43<vb>so it was huge
08:43<Chaot_s>meglev 16 blocks, (32 car's) main transport from hubs :D
08:43<Nite>max stationsize chaot_s ??
08:43<Chaot_s>max station is 64 i think :D
08:43<@Yexo>Nite: doesn't really matter
08:43<@Yexo>total number of trains has way more impact
08:44<Chaot_s>it doesn't impact on lan, wan / inet it's unplayeble :D
08:44<Nite>Yexo: i just wanted to know how how long a 22 KT coaltrain has to be
08:44<Chaot_s>eighter disconnect, or laaaaaaag
08:44<Chaot_s>Nite : not a train, its stored on the station.
08:45<Nite>IC
08:45<Chaot_s>and needs to be moved :D
08:45<Chaot_s>and 22Kt in trains... 22.000 / 37 :D
08:45<Nite>ic ic
08:45<Nite>hmmm
08:46<Chaot_s>that would mean.... 595 cars :D
08:46<Chaot_s>594?
08:46<Chaot_s>595 :D
08:47<Nite>depending on newgrf waggons u use
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08:48<Chaot_s>adding a lev4 in front and the end... and see :) you need a length of 597 cars and 299 blocks :S
08:48<Chaot_s>normal trainset i think.
08:49<Chaot_s>default coal for maglev takes 37 tons of coal
08:51<Chaot_s>90 normal trains feed the station, 13 lev's move it from the hub to a energy plant some 900 blocks away :D
08:51<vb>industrial station renewal are nice
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08:59<Nite>did anything change about the "automatic order view" btw?
08:59<Chaot_s>btw, how come i only transport ~80% of the produced amount.
08:59<Nite>buy a statue chaot_s
09:00<@planetmaker>and newer and faster vehicles
09:00<Nite>teh new vehicle = rating up thing sucks for years now
09:00<Chaot_s>while there are l8 trains @a statue?
09:01<Chaot_s>like ... okay :S
09:01<Nite>especially for competition servers, which i happen to not play anymore (but for different reasons)
09:01<Nite>a statue in town raises rating of all stations on its "land" - with its name
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09:02<Nite>so the "automatic order view" still there permanently?
09:02<vb>fish is so cheap :(
09:03<Chaot_s>i would expect building a statue of yourself would drop your popularity :D
09:04<vb>not in a communist country
09:04-!-Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-159-152.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:04<vb>:)))
09:07<Chaot_s>okay, up to 95% :)
09:07<Chaot_s>nearly 4000ton coal :D every month :D
09:08-!-Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-159-135.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd
09:08<Chaot_s>and it never moved away... its been there since 1950, and its now dec 1538 :D
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09:22<@Belugas>hello
09:22<krinn>hi
09:24<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22127 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix: Canals would get drawn as land in the smallmap when using the owner window.
09:33<DanMacK>Fish is a good starter cargo if transported fast...
09:34<Nite>soo ... again ... is the "automatic order view" still there permanently?
09:35<Chaot_s>how can i remove other players (their buildings and stuff) from a savegame played in lan?
09:36<Nite>magic bulldozer?
09:36<Nite>ctrl&C afaik
09:36-!-perk11 [~perk11@81.17.157.195] has joined #openttd
09:36<Chaot_s>Nite : what is that? i just want theri company's and all to be removed from this game / map :D
09:42<Chaot_s>save and close game, start in server mode, load map, and reset the company id's from console :D (reset_company <ID>)
09:42<Chaot_s>should do the trick :D
09:46<Chaot_s>and it does :D
09:47<Nite>well get into the companies and bancrupt them
09:47-!-Dreamxtreme [~Dre@92.30.25.120] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:48<Chaot_s>that means cheating
09:48<Chaot_s>and i don't want to load the cheats menu :D
09:48<Chaot_s>though problem is fixed
09:48<Chaot_s>load it up in a lan game and bankrupt them via console command :D
09:49<Chaot_s>forum and wiki are great.
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09:56<Nite>you can get into the other companies without cheating
09:56<@planetmaker>what's the point of 'not cheating' but deleting it on a local server?
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09:57<Chaot_s>indeed planetmaker :D
09:57<Chaot_s>lets now discus how stupid i am :D
09:57<Chaot_s>i just don't know what happens when you open the cheats menu
09:58<Chaot_s>wil that be logged, is it shown somewhere
09:59<Chaot_s>i didn't want to be told that i cheated my way to a company with almost 50.000.000.000
09:59<Chaot_s>beacause in the cheat menu you can higher youre money
10:00<Chaot_s>or wont it show up that the cheats menu is used?
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10:06<@Terkhen>it shows up what individual cheats were used
10:06-!-fjb [~frank@p5DDFC495.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
10:07<Nite>... woudl be kewl if u see bridges on the (owners)map
10:08<krinn>i've saw one day (i think the wiki but can't refind it) a page showing picture with directions on map, anyone got the link to that?
10:09<@Terkhen>Nite: or in all maps
10:09-!-DayDreamer [~pouzara@80.95.101.194] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
10:10<Nite>Terkhen true thats why the "()"
10:12<@planetmaker>Chaot_s, it will be logged in detail what cheat you used. But so will be the other actions
10:12<@planetmaker>at least mostly...
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10:17<Nite>no one can tell me about the auto order view :<
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10:24<Nite>a little yes ort no woudl be enough; is the autoorder view still permanent?
10:25<DanMacK>autoorder view?
10:28<Nite>buhaaa :((
10:29<Nite>or where they called auto stops?
10:29<@Belugas>auto play!
10:29<@Belugas>lol... auto-undo!!
10:29<@Belugas>mmmh... too much coffee, i guess...
10:30<Nite>auto undo would be awesome :D
10:31<Nite>i mean these greyed out ordersorders with the
10:31<Nite>i guess i have to try it to see
10:31<@Belugas>hem. right.
10:31<Nite>i just cant remember their name
10:31<Nite>or was i right?
10:33<Nite>yes i was its called auto orders
10:33<Nite>(or bug FS#4404)
10:38-!-Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:38<@Yexo>FS#4404 has been fixed in r21807..r21809, as you can see on the bug report page
10:41<Nite>ok thx
10:42<Nite>still turning the veiw on or off in the interface options would be good
10:44<Nite>i think autoorders are a nice idea BUT mostly they mess up the order list *shakes*
10:45<Nite>also as the limit of orders is 255 will you reach that limit with autoorders faster ? or do only real orders count ?
10:46<@Yexo>how do they mess up your order list?
10:46<Nite>(i cant find a forum thread about it)
10:46<@Yexo>if you want no autoorders, shouldn't you be using non-stop orders instead?
10:46<DJNekkid>i've noticed on the 'nfo wiki' that CB36 also mentions property 07, 21 and 22... are theese now changeable with CB36 as well as their CB10-11-12 friends?
10:47<@Yexo>the way I read the wiki they're just listed there because it are also properties that can be changed, although not by cb36
10:47<Nite>well first they pop up than they dissapear, and secondly they lenghthen the list unnecesarrily, thirdly orders change their number which is confusing.
10:48<DJNekkid>Yexo: that is also how i undersood it tbh, but as they were on the list i were wondering :)
10:48<perk11>Nite: but trains actually go to the stations listed in autoorders, stop there and even pick and unload cargo if available
10:48<Nite>yexo no i do not want nonstop - i want trains to stop every statpoin between the end statoins
10:48<perk11>so aren't they worth to be listed?
10:49<Nite>they aRe worth to be listed! yust not in the process of making the order list
10:50<Nite>they offer usefull info! but also can confuse
10:52<Nite>well i guess it has coem across now, turning them on or off would be more tidy
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10:55<Nite>cya!
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10:57<krinn>lol look http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Openttd_transport_tycoon-terabass.jpg
10:57<krinn>now that's serious play!
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11:03<perk11>krinn: why do you need 2 monitors?
11:04<krinn>i have 2 and really i need them :P
11:04<krinn>but that's not mines, and i only have 2
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11:06<@planetmaker>2 monitors can be *pretty* convenient
11:07<@Yexo>indeed, I wouldn't want to work without it anymore
11:07<krinn>i like dev (the text edtior) on left, and keep right for work/test/play
11:07<@Terkhen>but four...
11:07*planetmaker neither
11:08<@planetmaker>krinn, I do it vice versa ;-) - My editor is on the right. The testing output on the left one
11:08<@Yexo>chat+console left, everything else (browser, editor) on the right
11:08<krinn>lol i suppose it have to do with right/left handed part of the brain :p
11:09<@planetmaker>well. I've 8 desktops where I cycle through here. One is e-mail + internet. There the browser is left and e-mail right ;-)
11:10<@planetmaker>desktops as in virtual desktops on this machine
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11:10<krinn>i have the usual 4
11:10<krinn>i don't really use them, if i compile... i drop the console there, or for vlc
11:10<@Yexo>also 4 for me, and actually that's alreayd too much
11:11<@planetmaker>4 would be enough here, too.
11:11<@planetmaker>internet, text processing, data processing, other stuff ;-)
11:11<krinn>dunno how you do, intenet for me should be in all workspace :p
11:12<@planetmaker>krinn, yes. But do you have a browser and e-mail window open on every one?
11:12<@planetmaker>and it's only distraction from work work
11:13<@Yexo>I use webmail, the new app tabs in firefox 4 are really nice
11:13<krinn>no, i just use a mail ringer to told me i have new one
11:14<krinn>and the browser is nether far (for documentation...)
11:14<@planetmaker>uh, I used that. That's ueber-annoying
11:14<krinn>lol that's why i disable sound to kept only pic anim
11:14<@planetmaker>well, even that. No need. People usually can wait a few hours or till my next distraction ;-)
11:15<krinn>at work i have only 1 monitor
11:15<krinn>it's so shit to work on 1 only
11:16<krinn>i shouldn't had try 2 monitors :(
11:16<krinn>can't get back to 1 now
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11:25<supermop>hello
11:28<@planetmaker>hi supermop
11:28<krinn>hi
11:30<supermop>how is everyone
11:30<supermop>?
11:30<Mazur>everyone :No such nick/channel
11:30*Mazur is well.
11:31<krinn>bored can't find what i'm looking for on the wiki
11:34<supermop>thanks for pointing me to those values, planetmaker
11:34<Mazur>8 virtual desktops: 1: terminals, 2: free/OTTD Stable, 3: Twitter, 4: Browser, 5: Patience, 6: free/OTTD PS, 7: IRC, 8: EMail.
11:34<supermop>so I cannot just make a switch that switches based on railtype?
11:37<@planetmaker>hu?
11:37<@planetmaker>Well. yes, you can.
11:37<@planetmaker>But the problem is: any depot-only thing doesn't work for the 4 default railtypes
11:38<@planetmaker>What you *might* do is the following:
11:38<@planetmaker>Do as you do now and additionally replace the default depots as well
11:38-!-TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:38<@planetmaker>E.g. if you're asked to modify the MONO depot, replace that default monorail depot via replace_sprite also by your version
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11:39<@planetmaker>that way it will also work for the default rail types
11:39<@planetmaker>except you cannot distinguish rail and erail. Which is not that tragic then, I think
11:39<@planetmaker>And it'll have the big advantage, that it is a true 'provides depots only' newgrf, something which I *think* quite a lot of people will like to see
11:40<supermop>ah
11:40<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-replacement-replace <-- replace default sprites
11:41<supermop>so can nml let me handle two different rail grfs (default and other) conditionally in the same grf afterall
11:41<supermop>?
11:41<@planetmaker>Please elaborate what you mean :-)
11:42<@planetmaker>you can replace depots for 16 railtypes and the 3 default depots. All in one grf.
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11:43<@planetmaker>and you can of course couple any replacement to whatever condition you like
11:44<@Yexo>you can replace the depots for more than 16 railtypes, just not at the same time
11:44<@planetmaker>that's what I mean :-)
11:44<@planetmaker>And I think in current NML one can now provide the railtype label via parameter.
11:45<@planetmaker>so... things got a LOT easier to programme
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11:45<@planetmaker>thanks for that, Yexo & Hirundo :-)
11:45<supermop>ok
11:45<supermop>i really would like to support all of the common rail grfs in just one depot grf
11:46<Mazur>An universal depot.
11:46<@Terkhen>:)
11:47<@planetmaker>from what I see: not universal. Rather a large abundance of choice for depots
11:47<@planetmaker>supermop, the one thing which IMHO needs the biggest thought (from my POV) is: how do you want to let the user choose what depot is assigned to which railtype?
11:48<Mazur>You're right, of course, planetmaker.
11:48<Mazur>The wish was the father of the thought.
11:48<@planetmaker>:-)
11:49<supermop>so far, I do not provide for that
11:49<@planetmaker>Mazur, there's a universal railtype newgrf. So... technically we have that universal depot already
11:49<Mazur>Cool.
11:49<@Terkhen>does that solve the "convert to monorail/maglev problem"?
11:49<@Terkhen>or at least helps a bit with it
11:50<supermop>other than allowing someone to modify my grf
11:50<@planetmaker>Terkhen, afaik yes. I never used it myself, though
11:50<fonsinchen>damn viewport overlay keeps glitching
11:50<supermop>but i envisioned that if one uses nutracks
11:50<@planetmaker>supermop, the only way I currently can imagine is on a per-depot basis:
11:50<@planetmaker>one parameter per depot which you have
11:51<Mazur>DIfferent question: You know how I'm building a database of all trains, so is it possible to make a Sandbox with all train grfs, and when starting play remove all but one of them?
11:51<@planetmaker>And you assign to that depot a select-able railltype label
11:51<@Yexo>planetmaker: so you can't use one depot twice?
11:51<Mazur>I already discovered that oe can no longer add one, even before starting the game.
11:51<@planetmaker>Yexo, hm, yes
11:52<@planetmaker>Or it'd have to be vice versa. But then you'll have a huge list of railtype labels. But maybe it's better
11:52<@Yexo>Mazur: I don't see the point, just start different games each with a single train newgrf
11:52<@planetmaker>^
11:52<supermop>one has say, 4 different types of rail that are essentially compatible
11:53<supermop>so one could use up to for different depots to taste for the same type of train
11:53<@planetmaker>supermop, I'd be quite happy to help you along with that... we'd only need to put that project on the devzone for my convenience ;-)
11:53<Mazur>Yexo, sure, I just realise I can start a randomised game in 2100 with any particular train grf and pause that for the info.
11:53<supermop>ok
11:53<supermop>sure
11:53<@planetmaker>yeah. the railtpye --> associated depot way makes more sense probably
11:54*Mazur was too fucused on the scenario way.
11:54<supermop>so if i want a shiny new depot for my 80kmh line,
11:54<supermop>i buy a HSR depot
11:55<@planetmaker>yeah
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11:55<supermop>the 80kmh trains can still service there
11:55<@Yexo>a parameter for every railtype has the disadvantage that you'll need a parameter even for railtypes not supported in the current game
11:55<supermop>and one could use 80kmh MLSS stations that match it
11:56<@planetmaker>Yexo, yes, exactly
11:56<@planetmaker>and it has the disadvantage that it'd be not future proof so to say
11:57<@planetmaker>but... that is also the case the other way around
11:57<@planetmaker>hm... working without label, just with the railtype ID?
11:57<@planetmaker>insane? Or feasible?
11:57<@Yexo>impossible
11:57<@Yexo>railtype ID is grf-local
11:58<@planetmaker>hm, ok
11:58<@planetmaker>I thought it might not be when I don't define a RTT
11:59<@Yexo>I don't think you need a RTT at all for a railtype newgrf
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12:08<frosch123>"[MAP REQUEST] Full Scandinavia Map, min. 2048x2048" <- i like the "min." :)
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>scandinavia is tricky. the "common" heightmap sources have no data that far north, and the "usual" world-scaling is totally off in these regions
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, don't you play 32768^2 maps? :p
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12:15<frosch123>i wonder whether all games i ever played would add up to 2048x2048
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: if you only played TTO-sized maps, that would be 64 games
12:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/mgg/global/global.html can give you height maps centred on any geographic location if I understand that correctly
12:17<@planetmaker>or rather complete DEMs
12:17<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i know for sure that i played something bigger than 256x256 only once
12:17<frosch123>512x512 or 512x256
12:18<frosch123>i guess the latter
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>i managed to connect the two ends of a 2048x1024 map once
12:18<frosch123>i might have started on a 512x512 map once, but quickly considered it to be way to big
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>but not fill the full width
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>it was on daylength 8, i believe, and i played from 1920 to the 1980's
12:21<@Terkhen>http://tmintt.eu/content/srtm-dem-conversion-gdal <-- lately I have been using steps 1 and 3 of this tutorial; gdal_translate can convert directly to PNG using -ot Byte -of PNG
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12:22<supermop>can I just have an undefined dustbin category that gives any railtypes I haven't planned for a generic depot?
12:24<@planetmaker>supermop, you can have the player enter a parameter (numerically). Which then can be translated to a railtype label
12:24<@planetmaker>the UI would suck though - or do you know how RAIL looks as uint64?
12:25<@planetmaker>(similar way your grfID looks like ingame ;-) )
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12:28<Eddi|zuHause>a HEX input would be easier than decimal
12:29<@planetmaker>easier would also be input as text ;-)
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>not if someone makes a non-textual label ;)
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>a label can be any random uint32 value
12:31<@planetmaker>I know. Such person has to be punished, though
12:32<supermop>hm
12:32<supermop>I should think about this more when I am not at work
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12:34<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: programmatically, the railtype label "RAIL" can be translated to an uint32 (in little-endian notation) by "ord('R')+256*(ord('A')+256*(ord('I')+256*ord('L')))"
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>gives 1279869266 here
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>"ord('R')" is a function to get the internal (usually ASCII) representation of the letter 'R', it's implemented in most programming languages
12:38<supermop>that is a little over my head
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>just start "python" from the console and enter the above string without the "" ;)
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12:43<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: actually, for you as grf author this is totally irrelevant. the grf doesn't care how the parameter is entered, you can use any 4-byte parameter value in an action 6 to replace the railtype label
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13:23*ZirconiumX wonders why whenever I've been on in the past few weeks, LordAro has never been on
13:27<ZirconiumX>lol
13:27<ZirconiumX>A Class 172 Turbostar will have fewer seats than a Class 150 Sprinter it replaces[
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13:58<TrueBrain>@op
13:58-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:58-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!~shmore@dhcp-0-12-17-51-3b-2d.cpe.mountaincable.net] by TrueBrain
13:58<@TrueBrain>@deop
13:58-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
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14:06<dihedral>hello
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14:08<zydeco>greetings
14:09<dihedral>hello zydeco
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14:48<dihedral>@logs
14:48<@DorpsGek>dihedral: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
14:52<__ln__>dihedral: there's this thing called bookmarks
14:53<dihedral>which i do not keep across multiple computers
14:53-!-ar3kaw [~ident@ebx191.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there are functions for this available
14:54-!-orudge` is now known as orudge
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>depending on browser
14:54-!-Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:56<krinn>dihedral, understood? never redo @logs or you'll die !
14:56<@Alberth>you can also bookmark the link at every computer :p
14:56<@Alberth>(I already did mine, so need to do that one)
14:57<krinn>or just, well, maybe do @logs and lick on the link because you have a cool irc program :)
14:57<dihedral>i refuse to use such tools
14:57<dihedral>krinn, and who are you?
14:57-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-24-200-141.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>a newbie who thinks he figured out how we talk to each other :p
14:58<krinn>got the answer so
14:58<__ln__>dihedral: consider purchasing a computer that comes with the OpenTTD logs bookmark preinstalled.
14:59<dihedral>i know __ln__ is a bitch in a lot of cases, but a new guy? :-P
15:00-!-Kurimus [Kurimus@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe86de00-46.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd
15:00<__ln__>krinn: yes, who are you?
15:02<krinn>strange question, how you'll answer to that one ln ?
15:03-!-Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-159-135.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:03<__ln__>i answer: i have always been here
15:04<+glx>confirmed
15:04-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host220-174-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
15:04<Wolf01>hello
15:04<krinn>hello
15:04<@SmatZ>hello
15:04<__ln__>'notte, Wolf01
15:04<krinn>oh, my answer is so: i've not always been here
15:04<Wolf01>not yet __ln__ :D
15:05<krinn>and i'm sure glx could confirm
15:05<__ln__>krinn: fine. so what's your shoe size?
15:05-!-Regiovogel [~Miranda@nrbg-4dbfd2cb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
15:05<krinn>42
15:05<Regiovogel>good evening
15:06<dihedral>"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep"
15:06<dihedral>s/empty/__ln__/
15:07<Regiovogel>i've got a small question regarding the window system/nested widgets...
15:08<Regiovogel>i have made some kind of acceleration graph, based on the other graph windows, it shows the speed of a train over time
15:08<Regiovogel>and i'd like the caption to get the company color of the vehicle's owner. but... how?
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth is the GUI-Guy
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15:10<Regiovogel>regarding other windows, i *thought* it should be enough to set "owner" of the window to the respective company, but the caption stays gray
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15:11<Regiovogel>Eddi|zuHause: i was aware of that, but thanks ;)
15:11-!-^ekipS^ [~Spike@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
15:11<Wakou>Hi folks. Is there any way I can get the stable or beta to run in 32bpp extra zoom or do I have to compile from source?
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>Regiovogel: have you checked how it's done in the vehicle lists?
15:12<Wakou>I am using openSuse Linux
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>Wakou: there is no extra zoom in stable or beta
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15:12<Wakou>Eddi|zuHause> TY, saves me trying..
15:12<Regiovogel>Eddi|zuHause: i compared it to the VehicleViewWindow and couldn't spot any obvious differences
15:13<Wakou>its off to ./configure patch SVN etc etc for me then
15:14<Regiovogel>well, the caption widget in the VehicleViewWindow is identified by VVW_WIDGET_CAPTION which wasn't the case for my graph window, but this didn't change anything
15:14<Wakou>No plans to incorporate the extra zoom into the game as standard? For me it is 1/2 the game without it, I need it to see exactly what signals are up to etc
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15:22<Regiovogel>i think i might have found it...
15:23<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: do you have a screenshot of the graph?
15:24<Regiovogel>yes, it's working now. the owner has to be set after InitNested is called...
15:24<frosch123>yes, InitNested resets everything
15:25<Regiovogel>Terkhen: just a moment, please ;)
15:25<frosch123>btw. do you use svn, hg or git?
15:25<Regiovogel>the code doesn't look very nice by now, but it works
15:25<Regiovogel>i'm using svn
15:26<@peter1138><3 git
15:26<frosch123>your fix instructions read so complicated :) why don't you add a diff ?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>for local patch development, hg or git might be more appropriate
15:27<JamesG>I'm setting up git to develop my patch, how do I get git to give me a patch file for all changes made since the repository was created?
15:28<Regiovogel>frosch123: i thought for changing only some characters this would be easier, i'll add a patch next time ;)
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>JamesG: "git show" with appropriate options maybe?
15:28-!-amkoroew1 [~Heinz@p5B102996.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:28<CIA-11>OpenTTD: frosch * r22128 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4530]: Build-station-window showed wrong selection when reopening. (Regiovogel)
15:28<frosch123>anyway, thanks for the report :)
15:29<Regiovogel>you're welcome :)
15:30<@Rubidium>Wakou: palette animation fails with extra zoom, and there are some other conceptual issues I can't recall right now
15:30<Regiovogel>i'll give git a try, but as i'm usually a bit short on time at the moment i'm using it rather for coding around a bit...
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15:31<@Rubidium>Wakou: not to mention that "32bpp extra zoom" seems to be the reason to force changes in the game that shouldn't be changed
15:32<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I can go home, it seems :)
15:32<Wakou>Rubidium>Ty it just seeems a shame that it is not more widely avaiable
15:34<JamesG>Eddi|zuHause: I'll look into that, was using git format-patch origin/master before
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15:34<@Rubidium>also the extra zoom works with exactly one of the 6 blitters, which means it's far from complete, and completeness of a feature is one of the requirements for inclusion
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15:35<supermop>what exactly is a blitter?
15:37<Regiovogel>hah, finally got it working...
15:37<Regiovogel>Terkhen: http://temp.sebastian-sperling.de/acceleration-graph.png
15:37<@Alberth>supermop: the piece of hardware/software that actually draws sprites onto the screen
15:37<@Alberth>(or rather, the video memory)
15:38<supermop>i wonder what was the etymology behind that choice of name
15:38<@Rubidium>"blit" = BLock Image Transfer, so it's about copying bits of images around
15:39<supermop>so it should be 'BlITer'
15:40<Regiovogel>the graph shows the acceleration of a train when empty/fully loaded... i'm planning to add two labels to show the max. speed and needed time for this
15:43<Regiovogel>at the moment i didn't actually clone a vehicle, actually it is a bunch of copy-paste of some code...
15:45<Regiovogel>would it actually be possible to calculate something like this with a "real" cloned vehicle? it would be needed to change the speed (and for the empty/loaded calculation the weight and te) to get the right values...
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15:50<@Terkhen>hmm... I expected more difference
15:51<@Terkhen>Regiovogel: I'm not sure, but it would be quite hacky
15:52<Regiovogel>the example was from the turbo train from NARS, thus the small difference
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15:54<Regiovogel>currently i've extended the ground vehicle cache to hold the empty and loaded values, and yes, it looks quite hacky
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15:55<@Terkhen>from my experience, *any* changes to the ground vehicle cache can cause big changes in performance (for better or worse)
15:56<Regiovogel>well, i've not done a real game with that yet
15:58<Regiovogel>it might be that caching these values isn't really needed and could be calculated when needed
15:59<@Terkhen>some people are still falling for that fake chris sawyer post
16:00<Regiovogel>GetAcceleration calls some functions of the vehicles to get needed values (e. g. speed), would it have an impact on performance when changing this to parameters instead?
16:00<@Terkhen>I don't know
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>the entire thread should have been locked... imho
16:02<Regiovogel>i'll try that out when i've got some spare time... would surely save some code duplication
16:02<@Terkhen>I don't know enough about how class methods work at a lower level to be able to discern what option would be faster, but at first glance it seems to me that adding parameters would in the best case not affect performance
16:02<@Terkhen>what code is duplicated?
16:03<Regiovogel>oh, well, err... i have copy-pasted GetAcceleration... ;)
16:03<@Terkhen>ah, in your patch, I see
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>does the name "Sufkop" mean what i think it means? :=)
16:06<Regiovogel>Eddi|zuHause: regarding what he wrote... maybe ;-D
16:08<Regiovogel>if changing the functions to get their input values from parameters doesn't have an influence, my code might get quite readable...
16:11*Regiovogel wonders if there might be a DBXL 0.9 on some day in the future...
16:12<DanMacK>Some day
16:12<Regiovogel>mb is so cruel ;)
16:12<Regiovogel>a nice screenshot every now and then, something here, something there...
16:13<Regiovogel>well, in the meantime, there's UKRS2 :)
16:14<DanMacK>And NARS :P
16:15<Regiovogel>don't know why, but i like the british vehicles more...
16:19<Regiovogel>i think that most germans would rather say british trains are "ugly" (at least most people i know think so), but... i like them :)
16:21-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
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16:24*DanMacK likes trains of all kinds, although German ones are cool
16:25<supermop>can't argue with the beauty of an HST...
16:25<supermop>with plenty of yellow up front
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16:27*Regiovogel would like to see, hear and smell a real HST...
16:27<Regiovogel>watching youtube videos is good, but nothing can replace reality :-D
16:27<@Belugas>hem...
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i have never understood why british trains must be yellow at the front
16:28<valhallasw>visibility=
16:28<valhallasw>=
16:29<valhallasw>dutch trains need to have a white front, although museum trains are not required to
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, it's simply forbidden to step on the tracks. what does one need visibility for?
16:30<__ln__>crossings
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you need visibility, you switch on the lights.
16:30<@SmatZ>not all crossings have lights
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>crossings have lights and bars on their own. and crossings without lights have to be announced by train whistle
16:31<@SmatZ>nor bars
16:31<Regiovogel>we have crossings in germany, too...
16:31<@SmatZ>true
16:31-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:31<@SmatZ>maybe that's because of deaf people
16:31<@SmatZ>who can't hear it coming
16:32<supermop>also, why not?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>still, the train's headlights will be waaay more visible than any kind of coloured front
16:32<supermop>the headlights might burn out
16:32<valhallasw>of course, 30 years back there were deaf people, too, and the white front was not required in NL, then
16:32<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: you need to have pretty big lights if they are supposed to make the train more visible in broad daylight
16:32<valhallasw>supermop: because it's ugly
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16:33<Regiovogel>german trains don't have too bright headlights...
16:33<supermop>trains primary function is not to be decorative
16:33<Regiovogel>they are more like... position lights
16:33<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: and the observer isn't (hopefully) observing the lights from directly ahead, but a less optimal angle.
16:34<supermop>also, the train might be parked on a track, turned off
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>in broad daylight, a red engine will probably be more visible (as in different from its surroundings) than a yellow engine
16:34<supermop>in which case it needs to be visible to any other train travelling on those tracks
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: no. that's what signals are for
16:34<supermop>human eyes respond most strongly to yellows and greens
16:35<__ln__>i remember hearing about a research that shows yellow+black is actually the most noticeable color combo for engines.
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i haven't seen many tiger-trains around :p
16:35<supermop>what if the signal breaks?
16:35<supermop>why have yellow/black striped fronts here, but not mandatory
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: a broken signal must be interpreted as showing "stop"
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16:36<supermop>what if the wiring was bad and it falsely shows green,
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: that must never ever happen.
16:37<supermop>if one has to paint the front of a train anyway, you might as well paint it the most visible color you can
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: at that point, the train's visibility will not help at all
16:37<supermop>it will not hurt
16:37<__ln__>http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000amYV5wK1IOs/s/750/750/Black-and-Yellow-Locmotive http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/205741/205741,1220843850,1/stock-photo-old-yellow-and-blue-locomotive-engine-in-need-of-restoration-against-blue-sky-17094085.jpg http://static.bigstockphoto.com/thumbs/6/9/4/large/496897.jpg
16:38<supermop>the above argument is like saying that there is no point wear a helmet on a motorcycle, because if you go over the handlebars at 60 mph, the helmet isn't going to help
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: to my statement "i have not seen many tiger trains" you reply with photos of trains i have never seen. what's the point? :)
16:40<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: now you can't say you haven't
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i can still say it.
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: nobody said everything i say must be true :p
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16:43<__ln__>i'm searching the logs to find a proof for the opposite
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16:46<__ln__>unsuccessfully
16:47<@peter1138>hmm
16:47<@peter1138>anyone know if it's possible for SDL to report whether the mouse movement event is from a mouse or tablet?
16:47*peter1138 is suspecting it's not...
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'd suppose there are too many abstraction layers inbetween
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17:05<zydeco>an iPhone port of sdl reported multiple touches as multiple mice
17:06<Zuu>Last time I looked, I found different APIs to access a tablet on Windows and on Linux.
17:06<Zuu>Maybe you can find an abstraction layer if you look at eg Inkscape/Gimp source code.
17:08<Regiovogel>well, time to go to bed...
17:08<Regiovogel>good night, guys!
17:08<@SmatZ>good night Regiovogel
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17:10<Zuu>What might be possible for SDL is to tell if the mouse run in absolute or relative mode and if it is in absolute mode, it is quite probable a tablet.
17:12<Zuu>But as said above it could be that even the idea of relative/absolute mouses devices have been abstracted away.
17:13<@Belugas>NIGHT ALL!
17:13<@Alberth>night Belugas
17:13<@SmatZ>good night Belugas
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17:17<__ln__>what's 'to understand' in latin?
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17:20<@peter1138>basically i want an app to not use mouse warping if it can determine that a tablet is being used
17:20<@peter1138>because... well...
17:20<@peter1138>i can add it as a flag
17:20<@peter1138>but doing it automatically would be great
17:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22129 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Codechange: use simpler check to test if there any towns in the game
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17:45<Wolf01>'night
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17:54<@Terkhen>good night
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19:01<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22130 /trunk/src/saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp: -Fix: failed assert when loading savegame with empty shared orderlist
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21:07<supermop>hello
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 23 00:00:41 2011