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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-02-27

---Logopened Sun Feb 27 00:00:54 2011
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00:36<Marxman>Does anyone know where I can get that huge diagram that shows all the ECS vector industry connections?
00:46<rane>erm what
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01:36<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22153 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix [FS#4536]: The Greek translation didn't work as it breached the 200.000 bytes "limit" for loading language files
02:30<rane>what's the point of smaller planes if all aircraft except maybe 2-3 late game ones move at the same speed
02:31<Pikka>not a lot
02:32<Pikka>especially if the running and purchase costs of the aircraft are trivial compared to their income
02:32<Pikka>Scudless: oh look you're already in #openttd :o
02:32<Scuddles>but are you
02:32<Pikka>but are you?
02:34<Pikka>and also if all towns produce passengers prolifically and predictably
02:44<rane>i am running a hands-off game with 5 towns interconnectedo n a small map
02:44<rane>15 mil a year in 1990 with 50 planes
02:45<rane>and again, it's 256x256
02:45<rane>who needs trains!
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02:54<Joseph398>Just what type of computer do you need to run OpenTTD?
02:54<Joseph398>I have the right OS, but don't know what specs I need for it.
02:54<avdg>if you are on the right os, you have probably the right requirements
02:55<Joseph398>So, there's no demanding 3-D graphics or anything?
02:55<avdg>there are some (unofficial) ports to mobile systems ;-)
02:55<avdg>not that I know
02:55<Joseph398>I tried adding in a graphics card onto my computer once, and it was really messy and I never quite got it working.
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02:57<Joseph398>Thanks, that's all I needed. :)
02:57<avdg>Did you run openttd already?
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02:57<avdg>nvm :p
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03:14<rane>08:55 < Joseph398> So, there's no demanding 3-D graphics or anything?
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03:14<rane>if you can run irc, you can run openttd?
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03:37<Zuu>Good morning
03:50<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:33<@Terkhen>hi zydeco
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05:27<frosch123>wow, never received turkish spam before
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05:28<Pikka>turkish spam on turkish bread?
05:29<frosch123>looks like they want to sell me sprinkler system for 2000 m² or so :s
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05:30<__ln__>is it cheap?
05:31<frosch123>there are two prices listed; i can only guess: maybe 997 USD for the control system and 3 USD per m²
05:32<Zuu>heh, we have no-addvertising stickies on our mail boxes in my apartment building but one sunday the church had been here and deliveried their magazine to everyone. Otherwise we only get spam about aparments being sold in this area.
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06:38<CIA-11>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22154 /trunk/src/network/network_client.cpp: -Fix [FS#4529]: _current_company was modified when moving a client to spectators, causing issues in bankruptcy (Rubidium)
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07:23<andythenorth>tropic ^
07:23<andythenorth>view from my window
07:27<andythenorth>"This option should be something the devs should add with the very next update of the game."
07:27<andythenorth>so please get on with it :D
07:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth, adding over-exposed sprites is your job :-P
07:32*planetmaker waves and is off for the rest of today and tomorrow
07:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: I was referring to
07:34<@Terkhen>planetmaker: enjoy
07:35<@Terkhen>andythenorth: where are you?
07:35<@Terkhen>oh :)
07:35<andythenorth>where FIRS was invented
07:36<andythenorth>in 2008, sans internets
07:36<@Terkhen>not having internet leads to doing crazy stuff?
07:36<andythenorth>I guess
07:36*andythenorth has been playing the game for once
07:37<andythenorth>it's not bad
07:37<andythenorth>I have some ideas for....improvements
07:37<zydeco>some of us do crazy stuff having internets
07:37<@Terkhen>improvements to FIRS or to OpenTTD?
07:37<andythenorth>both :D
07:37<andythenorth>I would like to also report that automatic orders are not good imho
07:37<zydeco>I don't like them either
07:38<andythenorth>although they aren't bad either
07:38<andythenorth>a vehicle that gets lost and accidentally visits a station adds an automatic order for that
07:38<andythenorth>not ideal
07:38<@Terkhen>I never see them because I only use go non-stop orders
07:38<andythenorth>I may start doing that
07:38<andythenorth>if automatic is now default, then non-stop should also be
07:39<@Terkhen>andythenorth: having automatic orders does not mean that the vehicle will try to follow them
07:39<andythenorth>the 7 tile train-length limit was a cause of some confusion as well
07:39*andythenorth searches wiki for explanation of automatic orders
07:40<@Terkhen>to my knowledge they are just a list of stations visited between the "real" orders
07:40<@Terkhen>they should not have any effect on how the vehicle moves from a station to another
07:40<andythenorth>are they documented anywhere?
07:40<andythenorth>wiki can't find them
07:40<andythenorth>I haven't seen a forum explanation either
07:41<andythenorth>they're confusing
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07:42<@Terkhen>@commit 21642
07:42<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Commit by rubidium :: r21642 /trunk/src (10 files in 2 dirs) (2010-12-26 09:03:19 UTC)
07:42<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: -Feature: concept of automatic station orders; add stub orders for intermediate stations and remove them when not visiting them anymore. This allows you to see what trains visit a station without actually having to order a vehicle to stop at all stations. Based on patch by fonsinchen
07:42<@Terkhen>I think that explains what they do, although it is very summarized
07:42*andythenorth to the wiki
07:44<andythenorth>not very explanatory, but better than nothing
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07:47<andythenorth>the game is quite fun - although I can hardly make any money :P
07:47<andythenorth>and having to force servicing for trains and RVS remains irritating
07:47<@Terkhen>hmm... if I redefine default cargos (change their ID) but they keep their cargo label, shouldn't default industries and industry tiles remain unafected?
07:48*Terkhen would prefer to not redefine all industry tiles
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07:49<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I usually never service them, but it might have to do with my settings or not caring much about ratings
07:53<@Yexo>Terkhen: default industries refer to their cargo by slot number, not by label, at least IIRC
07:56<@Terkhen>thanks... this is going to get quite tedious then
07:57<@Yexo>see table/build_industry.h (near the bottom of the file)
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07:58<@Yexo>no labels, just CT_* constants which are slot indexes
07:59<andythenorth>Terkhen: as yexo said - you have to redefine all tiles and industries
07:59<andythenorth>have fun :P
07:59<@Terkhen>I see... I'll need to redefine all of them then :(
07:59<andythenorth>if you are doing a big project, it's worth using defines and IDs to do it
07:59<andythenorth>saves a lot of pain
07:59<andythenorth>are you defining your own cargos
08:00<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'm trying to do custom industry chains for OpenGFX+ Industries
08:00<andythenorth>so default cargos rearranged, or new cargos?
08:00<@Terkhen>default cargos rearranged
08:00<andythenorth>nml or nfo?
08:01-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
08:01<andythenorth>if you're redefining existing industries you will at least have fewer action 0 properties to define
08:01<@Yexo>please keep in mind that cargo support has never really been tested
08:02*andythenorth is lost with nml :D
08:02<@Terkhen>Yexo: for now it seems to work, once the full redefinition works I plan to check if the cargos are really identical or not
08:03*andythenorth has to go, might be back sporadically ;)
08:03<@Terkhen>when/if the code is correct, there should not be any visible differences between default cargos and opengfx+ industries ones
08:03<@Terkhen>andythenorth: see you later
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08:28<__ln__>where's the "bahn" at a "busbahnhof"?
08:32<Ammler>__ln__: bahnhof is one word :-)
08:33<frosch123>bahn != eisenbahn
08:33<frosch123>"bahn" is an unprecise abbreviation
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: even in german, some things are illogical ;)
08:38<Ammler>usually a "busbahnhof" is a bus station not adjacent to a "bahnhof"
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08:39<frosch123>it can as well be the bus-part of a rail-stations
08:39<Ammler>hmm, aren't those just bus terminals at a rail station?
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08:44<__ln__>i'd say bahn == eisenbahn quite often if not specified to be something else :)
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: it's just one of those ethymological developments, where the "bahn" lost its meaning, but the word was still kept
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>"Busbahnhöfe" often, but not always, colocate with a (real) "Bahnhof"
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08:54<__ln__>i see
08:59<CIA-11>OpenTTD: smatz * r22155 /trunk/src/saveload/station_sl.cpp: -Codechange: one comment in saveload/station_sl.cpp was wrong
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13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22156 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt japanese.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: italian - 54 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: japanese - 2 changes by kokubunzi
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: slovenian - 30 changes by
13:45<CIA-11>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 3 changes by nglekhoi
14:22<Eddi|zuHause> <-- oh i so could slap this guy right in the face for such a reply...
14:23<@Terkhen>put him on ignore, it will save you both the slap and reading his posts
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i tried that before, but the ignore function of the forum is utterly useless
14:25<SmatZ>I have him in my ignore list, too
14:27*Terkhen ponders posting User was put on ignore for this post
14:28*Eddi|zuHause successfully resisted posting a reply
14:29*Alberth gives Eddi|zuHause a cookie for his efforts
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15:23<krinn>hi guys
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15:25<krinn>do we have cases where an industry temp refuse a cargo on 1.0.5 or is it for openttd 1.1 ?
15:25<Zuu>pile full
15:26<krinn>oh, never seen that, extreme case or special gameplay (like everyone try to feed one industry?)
15:26<Zuu>Not with original industries, but there are industry sets that under NewGRF-specific conditions.
15:26<krinn>ah ok
15:27<krinn>how a vehicle with full unload react ? waiting at station until it's ok to process?
15:27<Zuu>Try with ECS
15:28<krinn>it's a newgrf ?
15:28<Zuu>If I try to remember all details, I will probably get them wrong.
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the cargo will just be stored at the station. when you didn't specify "no loading", the cargo will stay in the vehicle and it goes back half-full
15:28<Zuu>However, NewGRFs could for example reject cargo in February, sundays and christmas if they wished.
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: when the industry starts accepting again, a vehicle must pick up the cargo and deliver it again, it won't be delivered automatically
15:30<@Alberth>depending on your unload action, iirc there is also a 'unload when accepted' or so
15:30<krinn>not ai friendly feature
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15:31<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: that part of the newgrf spec is older than the AI system
15:31<Zuu>At least FIRS is far more AI friendly than ECS.
15:31<krinn>we should have a way to know conditions where the industry refuse the cargo
15:31<Zuu>The AI system is only 2-3 years old or so.
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the AIs have not even a way to ask the GRF about stockpile limits
15:32<krinn>if like you said the industry only accept the 24 december, only a human can see/know that right now
15:32<krinn>it's an option in those newgrf or is it default behavior ?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the only way that the GRFs currently can tell this stuff is by extra text in the industry window. there are no AI callbacks.
15:33<Zuu>But only if the NewGRF author writes that in the manual or other custom gui string.
15:33<krinn>well, i can then safely assume a human activating that + an ai is just dumb no ?
15:34<krinn>except if you're a bankrupt fan :)
15:34<rane>can i turn the impact train speed has on ratings?
15:34<Zuu>Well, you will have to assume that if a such NewGRF is present (only on christmas) it is a user AI to use that NewGRF + AIs.
15:34<rane>i'd like to play with old trains but they get old and businesses disappear:-\
15:35<Zuu>rane: Probably only via OpenTTD source code + recompile.
15:35<krinn>rane: can add more than 1 train to keep up the rating
15:36<Zuu>Oh, tomorrow is the international mouse arm day :-)
15:36<rane>i typically need two per a station
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15:36<rane>but still, as years pass engine gets old and ratings fall
15:36<rane>so i'm forced to go magnev eventually
15:36<krinn>because years pass and industry produce more
15:36<Zuu>You can get a 10%-units bonus buy getting a statue.
15:37<rane>maybe i should get a mod that slows down how fast day pass instead
15:37<krinn>so you need faster train, or more slow trains
15:37<Zuu>(in the right town)
15:37<rane>yes, i have statues
15:37<krinn>it's just like trucks, add 1 it won't keep up the rating, add another one... until they are able to keep it
15:39<Zuu>But rane is right that there is also an age-related component. (not sure if it is the actual vehicle age or engine design year or a combination of both)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>afair it's the vehicle age
15:39<@Yexo>the age related component is about the actual age of the vehicle
15:39<krinn> it's there
15:40<@Yexo>and it's only a bonus for really new (< 2 years old) vehicles
15:40<Zuu>So rane, just use autorenew
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>IMHO it should be influenced by reliability as well
15:40<Zuu>Though, it might not be possible to configure it to renew vehicles when they are > 2 years old.
15:41<krinn>dunno if it has been ask, but i saw a grf providing horses... for this kind of play, a stop date should exist as option
15:41<Zuu>You could also question why the horses smoke while they are broken down.
15:41<krinn>like block game to 1954 and don't higher the date...
15:41<krinn>lol yes
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: technically, that would be a really easy patch.
15:42<krinn>you might seen a lot of "western touch" town & building... coming up
15:42<Zuu>A NewGRF could possible also lower the max speed of horses when they are around max-age or older.
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the game has the functionality to use a year as "endless" loop, but it is hardcoded to year 5.000.000
15:43<krinn>i'm not really interrest about that, just i was thinking that cause i saw people doing grf for this kind of play
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: it would be fairly simple to turn that into a setting
15:43<@Alberth>hmm, another form of day-length :)
15:44<krinn>the back to the futur option :p
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, not really
15:44<@Alberth>krinn: there is a year cheat too :p
15:45<krinn>generally those kind of hardcore players (by hardcore i mean "hey i love to play with horse running at 1mph to carry 3 cargo) don't use cheats
15:46<Zuu>The year cheat can probably give my AIs a bit of a problem as they check if time has progressed X days since last time it ran certain management functions until it run it again.
15:47<krinn>Zuu, you need a WhatTheFuck() function :P
15:47<Zuu>What does your WhatTheFuck() function?
15:47<krinn>get the ai mad
15:47<@Yexo>Zuu: just detect the case and litter the map with signs with the text "CHEATER!"
15:48<krinn>ahah good one Yexo
15:48<krinn>should do it better yes
15:49<krinn>while i catch you Yexo: town can be founded now ?
15:50<@Yexo>hmm? a player can indeed found a town in-game now
15:50<@Yexo>an AI can't do that (yet)
15:50<krinn>hence the new function, ok
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16:11<__ln__>launch of Discovery as seen on an airplane:
16:13<krinn>lmao that's why you shouldn't do film with an iphone :P
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16:16<Zuu>would be interesting with the The dirty windows does quite a bit to it too.
16:17<Zuu>I was on a plane when there was a really great sunset out there to photograph, and had both my pocket camera and my system camera in the cabin but since the window was too dirty it was no point of ginging out the system camera.
16:18<krinn>and think about the front window ! I don't really want see the parts the cleaning can't reach, should have more than mosquitos lying there :)
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16:23<Zuu>I guess as dirty as a car, not cleaned for long time.
16:23<Zuu>There is probably more dirt in the air lower down than 10 000 feet up in the sky.
16:24<krinn>+ the birds and all that could fly and get it by an airplane
16:24<Zuu>And there is never animals on the road?
16:25<krinn>generally not on your front window
16:25<Zuu>he, true.
16:25<krinn>and also, you genreally don't running at him at mach 2 :)
16:25<krinn>or i want your car !
16:26<Zuu>A morse on your windscreen will not be very nice though :-)
16:26<Zuu>Those are really heavy...
16:26*Prof_Frink taps out some morse on Zuu's windscreen
16:26<krinn>yeah, but i don't think you will just keep running with a moose on your main window and ignore him :p
16:27<Zuu>You won't have a main window anymore.
16:28<Zuu>I've thanksfully only hit a moorse by a train, and not by car. That felt like a hard bang that spread through the train.
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16:29<krinn>is it moose or morse?
16:29<Zuu>I'm just not used with the English word for it.
16:30<Prof_Frink>krinn: Horse/Moose cross.
16:30<Zuu>It also say elk in my dictionary.
16:31<krinn>they're huge yes, seen my neighbourg's car that hit a (pig, but the savage one) and woowww his car was totally dead
16:32<krinn>he told me the beast goes in the wood like if nothing happen
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16:32<krinn>i suppose it has gone die farer, but still, the damage on the car was like if he hit a tree or a wall
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16:34<SmatZ>krinn: it probably died later for internal wounds
16:35<krinn>i suppose that too, but that didn't stop him from running
16:35<Zuu>Those can reach a weight of aronud 200 kg (according to wikipedia)
16:35<krinn>ah name i was looking is "boar"
16:36<Zuu>Romanian and russian can get up to 300 kg, also according to wikipedia.
16:37<krinn>that's huge
16:37<krinn>can eat for month with one !
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16:48<vb>what is the best industry set?
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16:50<V453000>or FIRS
16:50<V453000>others are crap
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i kinda liked PBI
16:52<V453000>yes if you do not use the mines
16:52<V453000>and for smaller network :)
16:53<vb>so firs it is?
16:53<vb>ecs is too complicated
16:53<vb>factories only need a certain ammount of
16:53<vb>factories only need a certain amount of products
16:54<V453000>ecs is overcombinated and stupid
16:54<V453000>if you want good industries, FIRS is the way
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16:54<vb>they only thing is, it has cars
16:54<vb>the only good thing is*
16:54<V453000>although the most fun is original industries, imo
16:55<Zuu>I like FIRS, but mostly when I don't have to deal with the complexity myself but just watching the AIs to play with FIRS. :-)
16:56<Zuu>When I play myself I prefere the original industries + vehicles or maybe UKRS as that's what I know best and I can concentrate on rail building.
16:57<V453000>UKRS is the best :p
17:04<krinn>zuu: pointing elem in a {} to null = delete it ?
17:05<Zuu>maybe, depending on what you exactly mean.
17:05<Zuu>Eg, please try to express yourself more clearly.
17:06<krinn>like a={}; b="bah"; a[k] <- b; (so now a[k] = b object)
17:06<krinn>and doing so a[k]=null remove/delete it from {} as a[k] point to nothing now
17:07<Zuu>if b still points to "bah", then the "bah"-object is still alive.
17:07*Sacro wonders when the new version will be out
17:07<krinn>oh found it ! delete a.k
17:09*Zuu thinks Sacro has been around for long enough to have a good idea about when 1.1 will be out.
17:09<Sacro>Zuu: an hour or so?
17:10<Zuu>Wrong month
17:10<krinn>the general rule should be "done when its done" no ?
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17:10<Zuu>Also we have the 28:th tomorrow.
17:10<__ln__>the 29th?
17:11<krinn>29 would be more than a year :p
17:11<@Yexo>Sacro: gives you a very good hint
17:11<__ln__>a fortnight from now?
17:11<__ln__>(i always wanted to use that word)
17:12<vb>which word?
17:12<Zuu>not yet, but in a forthnight it might be a forthnigth to the release.
17:13<__ln__>it's 'fortnight' as i spelled it
17:14<Zuu> spell it as "forthnight"
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17:15<Zuu>but my dictionary only contain fortnight, so it is probably more right.
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'd thought it was derived from "fourteen nights", why would it be written with "th"?
17:18<Zuu>because it sounds okay to put in an h there?
17:18<krinn>i would be only fourth
17:19<__ln__>Etymology: Contracted form of Old English féowertýne niht fourteen nights.
17:20<Zuu>krinn: Even if it originates from fourteen it could change over time.
17:20<__ln__>oh cool, there's also 'sennight': A period of seven (days and) nights; a week.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>then where does the word "week" come from?
17:21<Zuu>well, something the English got to have since they don't have a word for "the day after tomorrow" or "the day before yesterday". :-)
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: yeah, i find that disturbing sometimes
17:22<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: Etymology: Common Germanic: Old English wice weak feminine corresponds to Old Frisian wike (West Frisian wike, North Frisian week, wik), Old Saxon -wika in crûcewika Passion Week (Middle Low German, Low German weke), Middle Dutch weke (Dutch week), Old High German wehha, wohha (Middle High German, modern German woche), Old Norse vika (Norwegian vika, Swedish vecka, Danish uge), ? Gothic wikō (once only, rendering τάξις ‘order’ in Luk
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17:23<__ln__>"As there is no reason to suppose that the Germanic peoples used a reckoning by weeks before they came in contact with the Romans, it is probable that the Old Germanic *wikōn- had originally some meaning wider than that of ‘period of seven days’, which the word has in West Germanic and Scandinavian; perhaps it meant ‘succession, series,’ and this may have been the sense of Gothic wikō in the only recorded example. The root *wk- is found in Old No
17:23<krinn>zuu: after tomorrow / before yesterday
17:24<Zuu>still not one word.
17:24<krinn>we also don't have a one word for that, and still our language here is considered rich
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: and another one: why do the french say "quinze jours" (fifteen days) to mean two weeks?
17:24<Zuu>and to me "after tomorrow" doesn't sound like a very specific description of exactly the day after tomorrow, but not any futher ahead in time.
17:25<krinn>eheh eddi, right, but it's not as "two weeks" for us
17:25<krinn>it's half month
17:25<krinn>it's easier to catch an half month than think about x days later
17:27<Sacro>mmm, FISH supports 'lickable pixels'
17:27<Prof_Frink>Pixel licker.
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: possibly someone dropped a 'c' ;)
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>or an "inexp" ;)
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17:28<krinn>:) i like the 2nd
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>but the most important word that english is missing is the german word: "doch" [typically followed by an exclamation mark]
17:33<krinn>is that the simpson "doh!"?
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17:34<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no. it means "i am right, and you are wrong"
17:35<krinn>only teutons could have such an ordering word :)
17:37<krinn>don't "doch!" generally is follow by a mass crushing your head ?
17:39<Eddi|zuHause> <-- example usage. (don't know how that is in french original)
17:40<krinn>it's just say "si" for us (means yes but not as yes more as "it is"
17:41<krinn>really funny to see that in german
17:42<krinn>it really looks like it's the real actors voices
17:42<krinn>or the guys they have taken are really good
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause>IMDB doesn't list the speakers in the translated version...
17:49<Ammler>best movie db is wikipedia
17:51<krinn>looks like their own voices really
17:51<krinn>can't detect french accent while they speak?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause> <-- this seems to be the list of actors who did synchronisation voice in various films for louis de funes
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>it says Gerd Martienzen had an almost identical voice
17:54<krinn>yes really, tone & all, amazing
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17:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have the comparison.
17:58<Sacro>what's the best industries set?
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>another famous example of the word is the (supposed) galileo quote "und sie bewegt sich doch!" (something along the lines of "and she [it, the earth] moves anyway")
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>random etymological tidbit: in all germanic languages the sun is female and the moon is male, while in all romanic languages it's the other way around
18:03<Sacro>@seen Pikka
18:03<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 12 hours, 34 minutes, and 48 seconds ago: <Pikka> turkish spam on turkish bread?
18:04<krinn>oh, i didn't know that, and it's true, moon for us is female while sun is male
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18:08<Zuu>never herd about that the sun or moon is male/femaile here
18:09<@Terkhen>good night
18:09<krinn>night Terkhen
18:09<krinn>well, you have female/male for beauty no ?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no. of course not. that would be logical. :p
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18:12<krinn>i don't even think of a word here that isn't male or female
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: german has also "neutral" gender
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18:13<Eddi|zuHause>and it's pretty much impossible to get them right if you haven't grown up with them. ask Rubidium ;)
18:13<krinn>i think we have not even one neutral word, it's male/female
18:14<krinn>with male > female of course
18:14<krinn>and the "it" is a pain for us :)
18:15<Zuu>female/male for "beutiful" don't exist in swedish, but it does in the swedish sign language.
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: there are some weird bits between french and german where the genders are exactly opposite
18:17<krinn>must be more religious matter, you know the "we love the moon princess vs we love the moon prince"... so you get prince for moon and moon is male...
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>one particular oddity is "le tour" [as in "a trip"] and "la tour" [as in "a tower"], which is exactly switched around :)
18:17<Zuu>good night all
18:17<krinn>night Zuu
18:18<krinn>you means you would say "le tour du monde" and "tour la eiffel" ?
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>i mean "la tour eiffel" [female] becomes "Der Eiffelturm" [male] and "le tour de france" [male] becomes "Die Tour de France" [female]
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18:21<Eddi|zuHause>(while both "Turm" and "Tour" are loan words, they seemed to have switched genders somehow)
18:22<krinn>:O funny
18:23<krinn>all french i know that speak german says it's an easy language for them
18:24<krinn>but this kind of strange gender inversion should be hard
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18:25<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much all german people say french is hard ;)
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18:26<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose there are more german people who know french than french people who know german
18:27<krinn>you're kidding? we have region that are german/french fully
18:27<krinn>and german here (as english) is 1st other language you can teach at school
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes. but outside of that region?
18:27<krinn>while spanish/italian are 2nd ones
18:28<krinn>not that region (i lack to say regions)
18:28<__ln__>is that region larger than 2 square-meters?
18:28<krinn>nearly all north
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the areas that were formerly part of germany are fairly large
18:29<krinn>alsace, loraine... yep really large
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>they basically went back and forth since medieval times
18:29<__ln__>france, netherlands, ... ah, medieval
18:30<krinn>even today, they are all cheating
18:30<krinn>taking german as 1st language while they all speak french/german since birth
18:30<__ln__>impressive, often babies only learn to talk at around 1 year of age :)
18:31<krinn>talk maybe, but parents speak both to them
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that's what happens when you interbreed german and french people
18:31<krinn>so even they don't talk, understanding is first path to learn
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18:33<krinn>it create links to slaughter with someone for years :)
18:33<__ln__>i've read about a research which concluded that babies generate different sounds depending on what language they've heard since birth (or even before)
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18:35<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: yes. it's easily visible with german and french, in the beginning all babies sound alike, but french kids quickly start to emphasise the second syllable while german kids emphasise the first syllable
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>also, japanese kids learn how to distinguish l and r if they grow up in an environment that uses these sounds
18:36<krinn>we learned earlier how to be 2nd :)
18:39<krinn> a bit like the theory in that movie
18:39<krinn>environment builds you
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: there was a bit on ARTE recently where they asked french people to sing/humm the melody of the german national anthem, and german people to sing/humm the french national anthem. the french had no clue... they only found one person who knew the melody, and he was belgian. while most of the germans knew the melody and some even the text
18:40<krinn>oh really i don't know it myself, not a word or note
18:40<krinn>but it might just because ours is a kick ass battle anthem
18:41<krinn>i'm proud of it, not trusting a god or the like, fight to survive, it sound good
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure it has more to do with the fact that it's kinda closely connected to the french revolution, which is kind of a key point in european history.
18:42<krinn>some here even think we should change it (always a crazy to tell weird things), because not really reprensenting us in today's world
18:43<krinn>i don't know if our anthem exist translate somewhere, but it's really worth reading it
18:43<__ln__>krinn: never watched Formula 1 between ~1996 and ~2005?
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i think there's lots of blood in it
18:44<krinn>lol, no, as soon as prost give up formula wasn't of any interest :)
18:44<krinn>there's blood in it yes, but not as you think
18:45<krinn>it's more, we will revenge because they blood us, our wife, country...
18:45<krinn>eheh, more like "we will kick your ass, but not our fault, you start it"
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen a translation before, but i only remember some small bits
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18:46<krinn>the wikipedia is so a great tool
18:49<__ln__>by today's standards the french revolution would be considered an act of terrorism for sure.
18:49<krinn>yes and no
18:50<krinn>no because taking weapon and fight vs your opponent isn't terrorism, revolution, rebellion but not terrorism
18:50<krinn>terrorism is fear battle, hidden attack
18:50<krinn>but for today's standard yes
18:51<krinn>because terrorism today is what the one that govern you is calling terrorism
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: even they called it "La Terreur"?
18:52<krinn>and you also don't attack random target, but you're against something clearly define
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18:52<__ln__>i agree
18:53<krinn>terrorism would be me bombing a subway in london asking to remove a dictator somewhere, or me in my own country bombing random people in a cinema for a reason not related to movie...
18:54<krinn>but even i won't last long, me taking a weapon and telling i'm going to fight and kick ass another army isn't terrorism :)
18:55<krinn>but it sounds good to kick someone ass and tell everyone, you're just taking off terrorists
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>there is no real distinction between a "terrorist" and a "freedom fighter". it's all about on which side you're on
18:58<krinn>well there's one, tigher if you do that on your own country, but still one
18:59<Eddi|zuHause>not really
18:59<krinn>crashing a plane to washington dc if you are a military and your country is at war against that country is war
18:59<krinn>crashing that plane while many civilian are inside the plane is terrorism
19:00<krinn>same for empty plane vs school...
19:00<krinn>only military target should be taken
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>now replace "plane" with "bomb" and "civilian building" with "police headquater". and now still make a distinction.
19:01<krinn>it's sad, but crashing the empty plane to military hq and killing civilians nearby is just war casualty, not terrorism
19:01<SpComb>militaries don't mind bombing civilians
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>and if that is still too easy: look at recent news reports about a) a police station being attacked in egypt, and b) a police station being attacked in afghanistan
19:05<krinn>it depend what "police" mean at first
19:05<krinn>for us (i'm sure it's same for german)
19:05<__ln__>afghanistan is not war though, there's only a mere crisis.
19:05<krinn>if you put a policeman at an entry and tell him "no one pass", he will arrest anyone that try
19:06<krinn>put a military, he will kill one that try pass, not really the same
19:06<krinn>but on some country, it's hard to tell police isn't military
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: actually, it was officially named a war in germany last year
19:07<__ln__>i think here they still haven't admitted such
19:07<krinn>well, to name it a war you should have someone to fight against right ?
19:08<krinn>and if you admit war against terrorism, then why usa don't came bomb ira, some corsica, or guys at portugal...
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: well, the number of dead soldiers skyrocketed that past year
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19:08<krinn>because french are there for that Eddi|zuHause :)
19:08<krinn>hi bastien
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i meant dead german soldiers... nobody cares about the rest :p
19:09<bastien>how can I prevent a train from automatically loading at a station?
19:09<bastien>it looks like this: A <-> B <-> C
19:09<krinn>there's a no-stop order
19:09<bastien>trains that do A <-> C automatically load at B
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>bastien: use "go non-stop to C" order
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19:10<krinn>you know what is the worst Eddi|zuHause ?
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19:10<krinn>you can't battle with an army a militia or terrorist, that's not their job
19:11<krinn>the only way to battle terrorism is politics, and politics is why terrorism exist, chicken & egg problem
19:16<krinn>the same dumb ass that invite a fucking dictator to eat and relax in our beautiful houses all paid with our money
19:16<krinn>now he is telling him to leave his own country...
19:17<krinn>and saying to everyone he is a dictator and this must stop
19:17<krinn>what a pitty, what a shame for us :(
19:18<krinn>,8599,1693121,00.html +,7340,L-4034105,00.html
19:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, that's "diplomacy"
19:22<krinn>no diplomacy is going in his country and try to make him change for his own people health
19:23<krinn>or sending someone else speaking with him
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19:23<Eddi|zuHause>the world doesn't work like this
19:23<krinn>but not doing it YOURSELF, not in your OWN country, not with the red carpet and all
19:24<__ln__>like a great diplomat once said, "you're either with us, or against us"
19:24<rane>wasn't that "you're with us or you're a nazi"
19:25<__ln__>rane: no, you're confusing nazis with someone else
19:26<rane>word nazi lost its meaning anyway
19:27<krinn>and i never think a neutral position is a no position
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>rane: in your language maybe
19:27<rane>in the media
19:27<rane>in politics
19:28<krinn>not in europe imo
19:28<rane>just go to google images and type "obama nazi"
19:28<rane>here every right-wing government is nazi
19:28<__ln__>IRC is the only media that would abuse the word 'nazi' like you just did.
19:28<rane>Orban is nazi i keep reading
19:28<rane>which is weird cause nazis were socialists, but well
19:29<rane>that word means nothing too;-)
19:29<rane>i don't care either way, just chipping in to the last line of your conversation
19:29<rane>haven't read the rest of it
19:30<krinn>internet, not only irc, forums...
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>rane: originally, the word "nazi" is derived from "nationalistic"
19:31<rane>no, it is derived from nationalsozialismus
19:31<rane>na - zi
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>rane: well, i think you're missing a few steps there ;)
19:32<rane>so socialism is a part of it just like nationalism is
19:32<krinn>abbreviated from the pronunciation of "Nationalsozialist (wiki)
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: yes, that is more likely
19:33<rane>what if i just edited that entry
19:33<rane>to make me look like i am right?
19:33<rane>knowing you will go check me there
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>the 't' in 'Natio...' is spoken like 'z'
19:33<rane>no other source
19:33<krinn>that's why i said (wiki)
19:33<rane>it's from the German word
19:33<krinn>a great source, but never leave somewhere it's also a weak source
19:34<krinn>(... somewhere in your mind...)
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>rane: but insinuating the "ZI" in "nazi" comes from "soZIalistisch" is just absurd
19:36<rane>feel free to prove me wrong
19:36<rane>in the meantime i finish this last hub:-)
19:36<krinn>well, just telling a "black" is a nazi sounds absurd
19:38<__ln__>"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>in america, the term "nazi" really has lost its meaning, but in europe, and especially in germany, it has not
19:38<__ln__>congrats rane
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19:38<krinn>nazi didn't only grab jews, but tzigan, black, gays... and of course many forget, but even opponents or disagree german were killed
19:39<rane>well, there was sozi and then there was nazi, sozi with added nationalism component
19:39<rane>why are we talking nazi here anyway
19:39<rane>i hate educating people via irc:-p
19:39<krinn>because you speak about it :)
19:39<rane>i blame Eddi and his taunting me
19:40<rane>"absurd" he said
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>rane: you brought it up
19:40<rane>now he's googling :-)
19:40<krinn>rane where you from?
19:41<rane>is that an argument in the discussion?
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>rane: i'm the uneducated german. please teach me about nazis
19:41<__ln__>rane: nonsense, Eddi knows history better than google, so google asks him.
19:41<krinn>rane, no just to know, might explain your pov
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't touched google since i looked up whether it's "le terreur" or "la terreur", but google wasn't entirely sure either
19:42<__ln__>the 'Ł' in rane's realname hints towards some country...
19:42<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, "La" as terror is female (and that's logic no? :) )
19:43<__ln__>if it even is real realname
19:43<rane>no, i made it up to confuse people into thinking i'm from Poland
19:44<__ln__>Oregon State System of Higher Education
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>rane: poland? the name sounds more hungarian
19:47<rane>i believe they have Laszlo not Lukasz
19:48<rane>but you can't be certain with Hungarians
19:48<rane>tehy are like Finns :-p
19:48<krinn>Warsaw, Poland
19:48<rane>noone can understand them
19:48<krinn>that's for the record
19:48<rane>what were we talking about, again
19:48<krinn>i knew i saw that name one time :)
19:49<krinn>that people calling obama a nazi are stupids?
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>i think the point was that people who have no problem with real nazis start to use the term for other things...
19:50<krinn>can't be poland so
19:51<rane>i think most people don't even know what the word means
19:51<krinn>indeed, specially as far they are from europe
19:51<__ln__>poland? is that something like disneyland?
19:51-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>there's a north pole land and a south pole land?
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19:53<__ln__>at least everybody knows that WW II was about US and Britain allying with Germany to fight the Soviets.
19:53<krinn>i'm sure they could even say obama is kkk
19:54<@peter1138>*and* an evil moslem
19:54<@peter1138>(they're all terrorists)
19:55<rane>"evil muslim" - are you suggesting there are other kinds? ;-)
19:56<krinn>isn't that also stupid ?
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19:58<krinn>this channel must have drow cia computer power a lot
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>i believe kenya isn't even a muslim country
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>70% christian, 20% muslim, 10% other
20:00<krinn>well, that must be french stats
20:02<rane>ask an american to point at Kenya on the map
20:02<rane>or France for that matter
20:02<krinn>ask an american to point anywhere outside usa...
20:03<krinn>all french know well african territory
20:04<Eddi|zuHause><krinn> this channel must have drow cia computer power a lot <-- what do you think CIA-11 is doing here?
20:04<rane>or ask an European to point at Portland or whatever
20:04<krinn>lol saving power
20:05<__ln__>rane: *a European
20:06<rane>depends how you pronounce it
20:06<krinn>really rane, can't show you portland
20:06<krinn>it's in oregon?
20:06<krinn>i'm not sure, but i think
20:06<__ln__>rane: ok how do you pronounce it then?
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think there's more than one portland ;)
20:07<krinn>still i could only point you texas, NY, california
20:07<rane>__ln__, the way that warrants "an", figure it out
20:07<rane>krinn, play more games with actual world maps:-)
20:07<rane>krinn, eu3 among others
20:08<__ln__>rane: there is no such way.
20:08<rane>europa universalis
20:09<rane>__ln__, you not being able to figure it out doesn't mean it doesn't exist
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: hawaii, florida and alaska are also fairly easy to find on a map
20:09<krinn>ah yes true Eddi|zuHause
20:10<rane>Alaska is where you can see Russia from
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>alaska actually belonged to russia
20:10<__ln__>rane: it does.
20:10<Eddi|zuHause>until they sold it. "snow? we have enough of that in sibiria."
20:10<rane>Eddi|zuHause, when was it sold? :-p
20:11<rane>Eddi|zuHause, and for how much?
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>rane: something mid-19th-centrury-ish
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>rane: something around 7 million $?
20:11<rane>and you say you aren't educated
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>rane: i was being ironic.
20:12<+glx><krinn> all french know well african territory <-- well is a bit too much
20:13<krinn>it's not like we don't have a news about that territory like nearly all days
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's a fairly safe bet to say that the average french (or european) knows african countries better than the average american ;)
20:13<+glx>I didn't think libya was where it is
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's next to egypt
20:14<krinn>glx, in our garden?
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>afair libya was an italian colony
20:15<+glx>africa was an european colony :)
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>i think aethiopia never was a colony
20:16<krinn>european were greatest explorers, they put feet everywhere possible with a wind powered boat :)
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>the italians tried to conquer it, but they utterly failed
20:17<__ln__>is there some great challenge that italians did not utterly fail in?
20:17<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, wasn't long time ago no?
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>that was in 1930-ish
20:17<krinn>i think i heard gadafi speaking about that
20:18<krinn>__ln__, playing with 17 old girls?
20:18<+glx>anyway most problems are sequels of (de)colonisation
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: well, i guess you need to look 2000 years back...
20:19<krinn>like always: power > politic|religon > war
20:20<+glx>Eddi|zuHause: they failed for the little village ;)
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>glx: ;)
20:21<krinn>the village drown under piss
20:22<krinn>(i hope glx isn't breton, they are too "doch!")
20:24*__ln__ zzzzz
20:25<krinn>yep, time for bed you're right :)
20:25<krinn>night all
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21:30<DanMacK>Hey all
21:31<supermop>hello there
21:32<supermop>do you use devzone, Dan?
21:34<DanMacK>On occasion, yes
21:34<DanMacK>I'm a member to post to OpenGFX but haven't been a huge participant
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21:59<DanMacK>What's up?
22:04<supermop>ah, i was thinking of using it
22:10*DanMacK would ask the Europeans once they're around :P
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23:02<frankVR>quick question
23:02<frankVR>how do you change palyers in single mode?
23:02<frankVR>i was playing a multiplayer game and it crashed, then when i loaded the game it opens in the wrong player.....
23:06<+glx>cheat window
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23:21<rane>is there any comprehensive 32bpp train set like grtv set for road vehicles?
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23:31<frankVR>how do you get to the cheat window?
23:32<frankVR>and what do you press
23:32<frankVR>thanks mate
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23:35<rane>lots of WIP :-\
23:36<rane>but those already done are absolutely beautiful
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23:46<Eddi|zuHause>rane: considering that "extra zoom" might not ever make it into a release, these people are possibly setting all the wrong priorities
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23:47<rane>aren't they like making full 3D models anyway
23:48<rane>which can then be photographed by minions at whatever zoom is required
23:48<rane>i thought once a model is done, it can be manipulated into all kinds of zooms
23:48<Eddi|zuHause>rane: the way they are currently doing it results rather in "no"
23:48-!-Fuco [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:48<rane>also what's wrong with extra zoom levels so it doesn't get into release?
23:49<rane>it helps me play quite a bit:-)
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23:49<Eddi|zuHause>rane: the resolution of the game doesn't increase when zooming in, so vehicles "jump"
23:50<rane>i don't mind default graphics tbh
23:50<rane>but i replaced what i could find and it looks terrific
23:51<Eddi|zuHause>rane: the other problem is that "they" made their "32bpp extra zoom" file format incompatible with the "32bpp" version supported in the releases, so you can't just reuse the files for "normal zoom" either
23:51<rane>shame if it's all an exercise in futility
23:51<Eddi|zuHause>at least it used to be like this
23:51<rane>artists :-p
23:52<Eddi|zuHause>and the third problem is that they have been working on this for several years, and haven't shown even the remotest progress in getting to actually finish it
23:53<Eddi|zuHause>in contrast to the 8bpp replacement graphics (opengfx), which have been completed in a fraction of that time
23:53<rane>why can't they just replace everything that's in the base game and then do their other stuff after hours:-)
23:53<rane>whatever "they" means
23:56<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i have grown really completely uninterested in the project
23:58<rane>oh well, maybe when i get back to openttd in 2012 or 2014 or 2016
23:58<rane>they will be done
23:58<rane>cause that's my interval pretty much
---Logclosed Mon Feb 28 00:01:00 2011