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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-03-06

---Logopened Sun Mar 06 00:00:10 2011
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03:41<Wolf01>update the topic, RC2 now :)
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04:17-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.0.5, 1.1.0-RC2 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
04:18<@Alberth>thanks for noticing Wolf01 :)
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04:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22206 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp:
04:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Revert-ish (r14526) / Unfix-ish [FS#3569] / Fix [FS#4545]: the "center" (for
04:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: movement) of vehicles is (currently still) always at 4/8th original vehicle
04:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: length from the front, so trains should stop at the same location regardless of
04:22<CIA-11>OpenTTD: the length of the front engine
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04:39<Ammler>grat on RC2 :-)
04:40<Ammler>the changelog for 1.1.0 is amazing big, what are the top most important features since 1.0?
04:42<@Alberth>the size of the log always amazes me :)
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>removing support for changing grfs ingame, obviously.
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>i repeat my sociological survey of yesterday: (don't answer in here!, to not spoil the results, send a query) how many lives does a cat have?
04:43<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: nah, it's definitely r21961
04:44<@Alberth>@commit 21961
04:44<@DorpsGek>Alberth: Commit by rubidium :: r21961 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2011-02-04 16:07:42 UTC)
04:44<@DorpsGek>Alberth: -Remove: limitation that not loading and not unloading is mutual exclusive
04:44<SmatZ>@commit 14526
04:44<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by rubidium :: r14526 /trunk/src (station_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2008-10-24 20:53:57 UTC)
04:44<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: too many; pieces of crap shitting in someone else's the garden
04:44<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Fix [FS#2379]: make sure trains stop at the end of a station; a 3/8th length train did stop 2/8th of it's length too early causing a 63/8th long train not to fit in a 4 tile station.
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>(i will take the results at around 18:00 CET today)
04:45<@Alberth>Ammler: as you can see, devs have a very different idea of what's important :)
04:46<Ammler>I have xz-support, remote amdin, custom hotkeys, png grf and generic gui improvements, something forgotten?
04:47<@Rubidium>png grf isn't a feature; it's *totally* hidden for the end user
04:47<Ammler>Rubidium: well, distro updates are also interesting for me :-)
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>png-grf is purely a grfcodec-feature, isn't it?
04:48<Ammler>requires another grfcodec
04:48<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: openttd supports building openttd.grf now
04:49<Ammler>I add the newgrf limitation
04:50<@Rubidium>Ammler: so adding some GUI sprites is a feature?
04:50<@Rubidium>as it "requires" a newer NFORenum
04:52<@Alberth>Ammler: many people will disagree with that :)
04:52<Ammler>Rubidium: don't get that?
04:52<Ammler>adding gui sprites is not on my list
04:53<@Rubidium>Ammler: if we add GUI sprites NFORenum needs to be updated to know more GUI sprites are valid, so technically a newer NFORenum would be needed for compilation of OpenTTD
04:53<@Alberth>but png grf is at your list, and it is of the same order
04:53<Ammler>ah, I see
04:53<@Rubidium>and I can easily replace "add GUI sprites" to "change file format of source sprites" and "NFOREnum" to "GRFCodec"
04:54<Ammler>so the important part is more which opengfx minimum version
04:54<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22207 /trunk/src/table/ (6 files): -Add: Add the copyright message to the new ini files.
04:54<@Rubidium>yes, but that's not a feature
04:55<Ammler>oh well, doesn't need to be, just need some points for the package change log
04:55<@Rubidium>just a side note: Requires: xz (>= 5.0.0), grfcodec (>= 5.1.0) Recommends: opengfx (>= 0.3.2)
04:55<Ammler>opengfx is required
04:56<@Rubidium>it's not
04:56<Ammler>yeah, well :-)
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04:57<@Rubidium>or at least, not in the most important linux distro ;)
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>you can provide a "package" for the original graphics (without the actual graphics), then you can make one of them required
04:57<Ammler>hmm, are you sure about xz 5.0.0? the beta seems to work too
04:58<@Rubidium>lol ;)
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>Version: 4.999.9beta-3.7
04:58<@Rubidium>asking about xz that did a massive amount of changes between 4.999.9beta99999 and 5.0.0, and not about grfcodec/opengfx where you'd actually know the exact commit when it starts working
04:59<@Terkhen>good morning
04:59<SmatZ>hello Terkhen
04:59<Ammler>because for grfcodec I have the version limit already, but not for xz
05:00<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: since opengfx is available it is easier to just require it
05:00<Ammler>so openttd will work without any troubles
05:00<Ammler>recommend is not that well supported on the rpm world
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05:01<@Rubidium>Ammler: in Debian speak Recommends is: install by default, but don't fail if the user does explicitly tell the package manager not to install it; Suggests would be telling the user it's suggested, but not installing it by default
05:02<Ammler>yeah, same on suse and mandriva (except suggests), but e.g. Fedora doesn't have it
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05:12<CIA-11>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22208 /trunk/src/network/ (3 files): -Fix [FS#4543]: When downloading a file via HTTP failed mid-way and OpenTTD fell back to the old system the partial downloaded amount would be counted twice
05:14<Ammler>Rubidium: do you have openmsx as suggests?
05:14<@Rubidium>IIRC as recommends
05:15<rane>i never got music working in this thing
05:15<Ammler>I have gfx and sfx as requires and msx as recommends
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05:16<Ammler>IMO not worth to make that distro depended
05:16<@Rubidium>Debian suggests opensfx due to its license
05:17<perk11>how do you make packages distro-independed?
05:17<Ammler>making msx less required due timididy requirement
05:18<perk11>opensfx and opengfx aren't required at all, if I'm installing openttd on dedicated server
05:18<@Rubidium>opengfx is
05:18<@Rubidium>(or another base graphics set)
05:18<Ammler>perk11: <-- this spec works on all rpm specs
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05:18<Ammler>rpm distros*
05:18<perk11>sorry, I meant openmsx, not opengfx
05:19<Ammler>you need base graphics for map generating on dedicated server
05:20<perk11>Ammler: ok, I got it
05:20<perk11>about package
05:30<Ammler>we onced branched opengfx to make a nogfx, but it glitched a bit much :-)
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05:35<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22209 /trunk/src/table/ (company_settings.ini settings.h.preamble settings.ini): -Codechange: Move function declarations from settings.h.preamble to the ini file that uses it.
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06:09<Zuu>what is this with the new .ini-files? To allow for a distribution to use different defaults without modifying the binary?
06:10<@Rubidium>no, to ease adding new stuff to the settings table
06:11<@Rubidium>primarily because macros don't support default values for parameters, or multiple macros with different amount of parameters
06:12<Zuu>so the ini files are used on compile time?
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06:12<@Rubidium>yes, they're used to create settings.h
06:12<@Alberth>they are used to generate the old table/settings.h file
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06:13<@Rubidium>e.g. now we don't need *COND* anymore, as everything not with COND was just calling the COND variant with 0 and SL_MAX_VERSION as savegame version. Now those are defaults so there's no need for a distinction between COND and non-COND settings
06:14<Zuu>It sounds good to me even though I don't follow it to 100%. (haven't digged in the old settings file)
06:17<rane>how bout a fix for temperate climate so oil wells don't disappear? :-|
06:18<Zuu>IIRC there is such a NewGRF.
06:18<@Rubidium>rane: that's by design
06:18<rane>so why can't they by design to not even get generated in the first place?
06:18<rane>[4~i'm actually asking:-)
06:19<Zuu>The NewGRF I think exist, makes it so that oil wells also can increase production.
06:19<@Alberth>and deprive you of the fun of setting up oil transport first to wells, and later to oil rigs? we wouldn't dare :)
06:20<@Alberth>but as Zuu says, it is all controllable by NewGRF
06:20<@Rubidium>rane: because you start too late
06:29<rane>ok, so wells are the bomb in earlier years?
06:39<@Alberth>OpenTTD lives in a bomb-free world
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07:54<rane>what's the limit of citizens per city tile?
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09:55<@Alberth>hello andythenorth with _, and krinn
09:55<andythenorth_>hello Alberth
09:55<krinn>hello Alberth
09:55<krinn>and andythenorth :)
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10:52<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22210 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Add a variable for the value strings in the settings tables.
10:52<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22211 /trunk/src/ (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt table/settings.ini): -Codechange: Unduplicate Off/On strings.
10:52<Vadtec>without using any of the cheats, what is the best way to get something like a coal mine to increase production?
10:53<Vadtec>i usually have at least two trains waiting for full loads at a given mine, but it never seems to increase its production
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>rating should be above 67%
10:54<@Rubidium>make sure you have a > 70% rating. From around there upwards the chance to increase is twice the chance of decreasing, whereas below that the chance of increasing in only half the chance of decreasing
10:54<Vadtec>does that apply to any industry?
10:54<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22212 /trunk/src/lang/ (51 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unduplicate Off/On strings for the other languages.
10:54<@Rubidium>the rating can be increased by statues
10:54<@Alberth>and new vehicles
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>anyprimary except the oil well
10:55<@Alberth>see the game mechanics wiki page
10:55<Vadtec>Alberth: thanks, i was looking in the wiki, guess my search mojo is off this morning
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>does not necessary apply to newgrfs like ECS Vectors or FIRS
10:56<krinn>Vadtec, try search for mechanics in the wiki
10:56<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22213 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt table/settings.ini): -Codechange: Unduplicate company on/off strings.
10:56<Vadtec>yeah, just did and found it
10:57<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22214 /trunk/src/lang/ (51 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unduplicate company on/off strings for the other languages.
10:58<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22215 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt table/settings.ini): -Codechange: Unduplicate original/realistic strings.
10:58<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22216 /trunk/src/lang/ (54 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unduplicate original/realistic strings for the other languages.
10:59<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22217 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt table/settings.ini): -Codechange: Unduplicate horizontal positioning strings.
10:59<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22218 /trunk/src/lang/ (55 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unduplicate horizontal positioning strings for the other languages.
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11:00<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22219 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt table/settings.ini): -Codechange: Unduplicate npf/yapf strings.
11:01<CIA-11>OpenTTD: alberth * r22220 /trunk/src/lang/ (50 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Unduplicate npf/yapf strings for the other languages.
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11:16<andythenorth>upgrading an airport isn't very interesting gameplay
11:16<andythenorth>or is it?
11:20<devilsadvocate>its arduous. dunno about interesting
11:20-!-welshdragon_ is now known as welshdragon
11:23<andythenorth>I'm sure it's been suggested and rejected
11:24<krinn>it is, bigger airport support more traffic
11:24<andythenorth>but how about an option to just just set current destination of all planes using this_airport to !this_airport
11:24<andythenorth>i.e. bump to next order
11:25<krinn>you think about an option to move the traffic away from it while upgrading?
11:26<andythenorth>effectively yes
11:26<krinn>i would say the reroute won't work
11:27<Vikthor>yeah anything that takes away need to micromanage the planes while upgrading
11:27<krinn>you need to remove it from the orders
11:27<andythenorth>the reroute would work
11:27<krinn>just sending the vehicle away won't work as they get back fast
11:27<andythenorth>it will work
11:27<andythenorth>it's what players have to do anyway
11:28<krinn>as a player i remove it from order or stop traffic and release again ones at my airport yeah
11:28<andythenorth>one option would be to send to hangar at next destination
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>last call for my sociological survey of yesterday: (don't answer in here!, to not spoil the results, send a query) how many lives does a cat have?
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>(results in an hour)
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>(half an hour)
11:28*andythenorth thinks of an answer
11:28<andythenorth>but it's massively predictable
11:29<krinn>if you activelly watch any aircraft having the goto airports order and set to next order it would work
11:30<krinn>and think about 1 order dumb aircraft (don't kick me! players COULD and ARE doing that :p )
11:30<Vikthor>killall cat - that's one less :)
11:31<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, an european cat or an african cat ?
11:32<andythenorth>my suggestion for verified newgrfs has not produced the avalanche of responses I expected
11:32<andythenorth>I think the rating system would *suck* massively
11:33<andythenorth>and shouldn't be tried
11:33<krinn>is that a kind of rating for grf, more users vote for it, better it is ?
11:33<andythenorth>someone (yahoo) demonstrated n problems with rating systems
11:33<andythenorth>I think it was yahoo anyway
11:34<andythenorth>effectively yes
11:34<andythenorth>it's dumb
11:34<krinn>i've try newgrf, concept is really good, realisation sucks bad
11:34<krinn>with the newgrf that remove others vehicle... ones that cannot work for some reason with others...
11:35<krinn>better but a signing system: pass it: ok, not passing it, trash that shit it won't be playable anyway
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11:36<@Alberth>krinn: it depends on your style of playing, as well as how you think newgrfs should act, whether they behave reasonably
11:37<krinn>i've try some that change graphics a bit, that's the "safer" ones, but ones that change vehicle, total anarchy
11:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: but how about an option to just just set current destination of all planes using this_airport to !this_airport <-- close airport patch, although it should be generalized to all kinds of stations, I think
11:40<andythenorth>Alberth: I thought it was probably a partly-solved problem by now
11:41<andythenorth>krinn: there aren't so many problems with vehicle newgrfs any more
11:41<@Alberth>'partly' being the key word :)
11:42<krinn>andythenorth, it might be the case i'm sure, but i have act as a user on newgrf case
11:42<krinn>andythenorth, i mean: look at bananna thru openttd download
11:42<krinn>try to find ones that say "vehicle" and download it
11:42<krinn>a waste of time
11:43<krinn>i'm sure if i dig on the net to find good ones i would be happy maybe, but as-is, the system is too weak
11:44<andythenorth>tagging is not perfect :P
11:44<krinn>not really tagging them
11:45<krinn>but a simple: checkgrf.exe if you prefer, that check few parameters that should be set to avoid this nightmare where i lost all vehicle because a grf add 1 horse vehicle to the game...
11:45<krinn>and only allow the content donwload to hold them if it pass the checkgrf.exe test
11:46<@Alberth>but those newgrfs are valid use cases, justdifferent than yours
11:46<andythenorth>I see the point though
11:47<andythenorth>for a bananas user there's almost no way to decide
11:47<andythenorth>just a very limited description
11:47<krinn>well, might be me yes, but i expect a newgrf that add a bus not to remove another bus
11:48<andythenorth>and I'd guess very few bananas users visit tt-forums
11:48<andythenorth>judging by view counts on images vs. download counts on newgrfs
11:48<krinn>as i said: i tried them as-is, as a plain user: using content downloader, and it was a pitty
11:48<andythenorth>and there's no easy way to access a readme
11:48<@Alberth>and even then, try finding the thread of some random newgrf :)
11:48<andythenorth>krinn: mostly trash?
11:49<krinn>and i suppose some more are in, but description isn't telling you they are
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that would be easier if one could have clickable links ingame
11:50<krinn>some guys take hours & hours to build a new vehicle and put that as "thekid.grf" with a description: my newgrf by daKid! some animation from tada...
11:50<krinn>and you are looking at that saying? does it add / replace /remove vehicle? what kind of vehicle...
11:50*andythenorth ponders categories for newgrf in bananas
11:50<andythenorth>nfo has pretty tightly defined categories
11:51<@Alberth>krinn: that description says enough 'don't expect something usable' to me
11:51<andythenorth>bananas could parse the newgrf, and see what it screws with
11:51<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: yeah
11:52<andythenorth>by the action 0 types
11:52<@Alberth>a somewhat standard description made by the author would be easier perhaps
11:53<krinn>look at the ikarus set for example, i don't want to visit an unclickable link to the forum to know what it do
11:53<krinn>but the description (glad it add that) says it contains 41 buses in it
11:53<krinn>great, but does it remove all trucks to add the buses... so i endup playing with only buses?
11:53<@Alberth>sounds like too many for me?
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't even know ikarus made that many models...
11:54<andythenorth>maybe sets could be classed as follows:
11:54<@Alberth>krinn: you can ask infinitely many random questions, you cannot expect answers for all of them
11:54<krinn>could be fun, i like the idea to have more vehicle choice, but not really the idea to loose others
11:54<andythenorth>[*] Lame [*] Gameplay [*] Nerd
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11:55<krinn>that just my thinking about it Alberth i just gave up and i'm happy with "base" openttd vehicle playing
11:56<terulz^>hi, can someone tell me where I can find a bot for openttd mac version?
11:56<welshdragon>terulz^, a bot for what exactly?
11:56<@Alberth>krinn: and there are authors that want to mimic vehicles from a country or so, and they don't want interference with foreign vehicles like the standard vehicles set
11:56<terulz^>computer ai
11:57<welshdragon>terulz^, use Check online Content
11:57<welshdragon>they are listed as AI
11:57<krinn>alberth: agree, but two sets would do that no ? one with new vehicle, and one that block others
11:57<@Alberth>all AIs work, as they are written in a higher level language
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11:57<krinn>user keep choice of having a "realistic" vehicle set or having plenty vehicle choices
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: this is already possible the other way around: you can add a set that re-enables the default vehicles
11:58<terulz>thanks a lot :-)
11:58<@Alberth>krinn: would be nice, but I don't know whether it is possible
11:58-!-terulz [] has quit []
11:58<krinn>and do really users need that? gave me a vehicle set with horses & cow
11:58<krinn>leave all users with cow/bus/horse...
11:59<krinn>realistic users will just not buy the bus...
11:59<@Alberth>krinn: yeah, I also mostly play with the base set, with some simple additions some times.
11:59<@Alberth>krinn: it is very simple, just delete the file.
12:00<krinn>Alberth, it is indeed, and that's what i did, but a bit sad they restrict there work like that
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12:00<krinn>as i said, all users will just gave up on all newgrf because of that anarchy
12:01<@Alberth>as with all open source content, you cannot expect that it always complies with your ideas of 'good'
12:01<krinn>as i did, but might just be because i was at first really happy with default set
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i guess you just had a different expectation. extrapolating that to "all users" is silly, though.
12:02<@Alberth>krinn: unlike in a commercial environment, in open source there is always much more choice to pick from. It takes time to do that.
12:02<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, of course, i don't think everyones think like me
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12:03<krinn>but doing as i do would be a high percent of what users would do, because content downloader doesn't target the "opensource i want to dig everywhere and tweak it to make it work" users imo
12:04<@Alberth>the standard practice is: try it, if you like it, keep it. If you don't like it, remove, and try again.
12:04<@Alberth>yet players that stick around longer than say 3 months are exactly those players
12:05<@Alberth>as OpenTTD is trivially winnable
12:07<krinn>well, if people try to set a "rank this grf", it might be that what i said isn't totally wrong, why looking for a solve to find a "not so shitty" newgrf else?
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>here are the results of the survey "how many lives does a cat have":
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>9 people replied
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>3 people said: one
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>2 people said: nine
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>2 people said: seven
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>one person said "depends whether the box is open"
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>and one person couldn't decide whether to say one or nine
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12:10<Eddi|zuHause>no person said "too many"
12:10<krinn>my "an european cat or african cat" doesn't work? :)
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: that entry was disqualified since it was in the channel, and thus against the entrance rules
12:11<krinn>damn it! i always loose
12:11<krinn>at english too __ln__
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause>the interesting fact here is that, apparently, german cats have 7 lives, while elswehere 9 seems to be common
12:14<krinn>9 for french, english have 9 too no?
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: that matches the replies, yes
12:15<krinn>i knew english love black ones while french hate them
12:15<andythenorth>7 is insane
12:15<DanMacK>Hey andy
12:15<andythenorth>the road vehicle newgrf problem can at least partly be blamed at TTDP can't it
12:16*DanMacK wonders what the problem is
12:16<andythenorth>being somewhat sparse on available IDs, the poor newgrf author has no choice but to disable default vehicles
12:16<krinn>something about waterloo lost cause napoleon saw one crossing the field (that's what my english teacher told me)
12:16<andythenorth>or....drop TTDP support :P
12:16<andythenorth>hi DanMacK
12:16<andythenorth>I'm about to leave
12:16<krinn>while for english it was a nice cat so
12:17<andythenorth>DanMacK: I posted the pngs for you
12:17<andythenorth>thought I'd done it yesterday, but this internet sometimes times out on uploads :P
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i'd file that under "urban myth"
12:18<andythenorth>DanMacK: I think the building is way too big
12:18<andythenorth>but meh
12:18<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, also told me they put a cat figurine when they are 13 at table...
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>of course, there exist supersticions about black cats, but assuming that they should be battle-deciding is silly
12:18<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, ah teachers! all mad
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>in german supersticion, it even matters whether the black cat crosses from left to right or from right to left
12:20<krinn>eheh, dropping salt over the shoulders when seeing one too?
12:20<andythenorth>good night
12:20<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds quite complicated :)
12:20<@Alberth>good night andythenorth
12:20<krinn>night andythenorth
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: now try seeing a black cat while you pass under a ladder on which a chimney sweep stands :p
12:22<@Alberth>it does not count if you help luck a bit, I guess ?
12:22<@Alberth>it already fails at 'black cat' for me :)
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>my black cat is actually really dark red. when the sun directly shines on it, it shimmers like rusty metal
12:24<krinn>pff now red -> witch !!! BURN BURN !!!
12:25*Alberth extinguishes krinn with a bucket of water
12:26<krinn>ever check your cat wedge like a duck Eddi|zuHause ?
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12:40<ccfreak2k>We couldn't afford a real German like Eddi|zuHause in another channel I'm in.
12:40<ccfreak2k>We had to settle for an Austrian.
12:40<__ln__>does he have expertise with kangaroos?
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12:46<mora>Hi all. Fireing up openttd again after a year since last play, i can no longer build 2-way signal like I used to. The tool only circles through 1-way path-signals. And I can not seem to find the 2-way path-signal any longer. any comment?
12:46<@Rubidium>mora: advanced settings
12:47<@Rubidium>-> construction -> signals -> cycle through signal types
12:47<@Rubidium>I guess that's set to path signals only
12:48<mora>no, It's set to all
12:48<mora>i just double checked.
12:48<ccfreak2k>Eddi|zuHause, regarding black cat direction:
12:48<ccfreak2k><AforAnonymous> not to my knowledge
12:48<ccfreak2k><AforAnonymous> maybe it's some local thing where he lives.
12:48<ccfreak2k><AforAnonymous> and he for some reason applies it to all of germany.
12:48<@Rubidium>oh, you're talking about 2 way path signals; those don't exist
12:49<@Rubidium>and didn't exist a year ago either
12:50<mora>My bad, I mean 2-way signals, not 2-way path signals.
12:50<mora>the standard signal I got before when not selecting anything specific was a 2-way signal allowing trains in both directions.
12:51<mora>that is the one I can not build anymore.
12:51<mora>as in point 4 here:
12:51<@Rubidium>if the default signal is a path signal, then you need to ctrl-click till it's a block signal (or change the default signal)
12:52<@Rubidium>then you can by clicking it (still with the signal tool enabled) turn it/make a 2 way signal of it
12:53<mora>that is what I expected, but the tool only changes between "right" and "left" one-way path-signal
12:54<@Rubidium>then your ctrl key is broken
12:55<mora>hmm, maybe so.. I have to test that. thanks for your help.
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13:04<@planetmaker>good evening
13:04<wesso>hi. can I get help and advice on here regarding open ttd?
13:05<@planetmaker>this would be the right channel, yes
13:07<wesso>cool. so, I have an old version of ttd which was given to me, i played it and loved it. but my hdd in my laptop died, and im now looking to get the new version... and i have no idea what im doing to be honest. i have downloaded the latest version 1.0.5 zip archive but dont understand where i go from here
13:08<@planetmaker>unzip it
13:08<@planetmaker>and... it's OpenTTD. Not TTD.
13:09<wesso>ok, so i have a little idea when it comes to comps. its all extracted, but when i try and run it, i get an error refering me to readme 4.1 or something.
13:09<@planetmaker>you'll most likely need to get also a graphics base set.
13:09<@planetmaker>If you're on windows - the easiest way is to get an installer and run that. And allow the installer to also install the graphics and sound and music
13:09<@planetmaker>Well. What does section 4.1 of the readme tell you? ;-)
13:10<@planetmaker>it tells you where to put the needed base graphics
13:10<wesso>ha. i have read it but dont really understand what its asking me to do. so if i download the installer, run it.. i should be ready to go?
13:11<@planetmaker>Yes, if you don't understand that, the installer is easier for you as it copies all stuff to the right places. Otherwise you could get a baseset from
13:12<@planetmaker>but you could tell me what part of section 4.1 is not understandable. It's difficult to write something one has done dozens of times in a way a person who never did that in an understandable way
13:13<wesso>ok so i have ran the installer and pointed it to the correct directory where the zip file was extracted to, but get an error setup cannot continue without OpenTTD location
13:14<@planetmaker>which installer did you run?
13:15<@planetmaker>ok... and where does the zip file come into play?
13:16-!-fjb is now known as Guest3758
13:16-!-fjb [] has joined #openttd
13:16<@planetmaker>Just accept all default values
13:16<@planetmaker>Without changing directories or alike
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13:18<+glx>the message was "Setup cannot continue without the Transport Tycoon Deluxe location!"
13:19<wesso>ok sorted. thanks for your help.
13:19<@planetmaker>he, that makes sense, glx :-)
13:20-!-wesso [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
13:20<+glx>if only people was able to read correctly ;)
13:21<@planetmaker>or quote. yeah :S
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13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: translators * r22221 /trunk/src/lang/ (58 files in 2 dirs):
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: danish - 14 changes by beruic
13:47<CIA-11>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 4 changes by nglekhoi
13:52<Vadtec>has cargodest received much work recently? (checking wiki as we speak, but it does not appear so)
13:53-!-Devroush [] has joined #openttd
13:53<Prof_Frink>Who's going to get commit 22222?
13:53<@planetmaker>the wiki certainly is no indicator for work spent on anything
13:54<Vadtec>i never said it was, just that i was checking to see if it had any new info
13:56-!-alluke [] has joined #openttd
13:56<@planetmaker>a better indicator might be the commit log of the cargodist repo. But cargodest... long time nothing happend
13:57-!-fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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13:59<Vadtec>well looking at it, cargodist has had some fairly recent commits
13:59<@Rubidium>cargodist is to cargodest what Iran is to Irak; they're totally different
14:00<SmatZ>it seems cyrillic could be banned at tt-forums...
14:00<SmatZ>everything written in cyrillic has been spam (what I remember)
14:00<Vadtec>yes i know that Rubidium, but i remembered the name cargodest before i remembered cargodist
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14:06<Chaot_s>hi all, can someone help me with some info on signals? i have build a rather large setup, and somehow i'm seeing strange things happening.
14:06<SmatZ>#define strange_things crash_game()
14:07<Chaot_s>trains seem to prefer some paths over other whil i would expect them to do otherwise.
14:07<__ln__>do you see strange things happening outside the screen too?
14:07<Chaot_s>uhm it's kind of hard to explane.
14:08<@Alberth>not nearly as hard as glazing in a crystal ball trying to understand what you ask
14:08<@Terkhen>a screenshot / savegame would probably be better than an explanation
14:08<Chaot_s>sorry __ln__, i don't have english as my native language.
14:08<@Alberth>a picture? a save game?
14:09<__ln__>Chaot_s: me neither.
14:10<Chaot_s>i'm running the game online, i can pm the server password to some people.
14:10<@planetmaker>just provide a savegame.
14:10<Chaot_s>okay, i'll put it on the server. a minute pleas :D
14:11<@Alberth>evenink planetmaker
14:11-!-frosch [] has joined #openttd
14:11<Chaot_s>__ln__ : sorry if my spelling errors offend you.
14:11<@planetmaker>hey ho, Alberth & frosch123
14:11<frosch>there are too many frosches in here
14:12<frosch>something disconnected somewhere :)
14:12<Chaot_s>does it matter if it is an autosave?
14:13<@planetmaker>they're normal savegames. doesn't matter
14:15<Chaot_s>where does openttd save it's autosave files on a linux shell? in the .openttd folder? because that is a rather old file...
14:16-!-alek [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:16<__ln__>Chaot_s: i'm not offended at all. where did you get such an idea?
14:17-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:18<Chaot_s>thats wierd... all the files are from 20 feb... when the server was started.
14:18<@Rubidium>then autosave isn't enabled I reckon
14:18<krinn>can't find it on game mechanics wiki, but how does the mail is produce? i mean is there a ratio taken from town house or something?
14:19<@planetmaker>krinn, it's a house property
14:20<@planetmaker>it's independent of everything else and can be set to what the newgrf developer likes
14:20<krinn>and it's random or it respect some ratio? looks like all town have like 4 to 8 times more pass than mail
14:21<Chaot_s>Rubidium : in openttd.cfg under section [GUI] --> autosave = year
14:21<@planetmaker>hm... production...
14:21<Chaot_s>that should do the trick?
14:22<@planetmaker>Chaot_s, just make a savegame locally, upload that somewhere.
14:22<@planetmaker>when you connect(ed)
14:22<Chaot_s>darned i'm stupid :D
14:26<Chaot_s>found the problem...
14:26<Chaot_s>seems somehow the server has locked the filesystem for writing.
14:26<Chaot_s>sorry for that.
14:27<krinn>df -h is your friend
14:27<Chaot_s>someones going to get his ass kicked :D
14:28<Chaot_s>he has been messing in stuff he shouldn't have been messing in
14:28<Chaot_s>half the quota system is messed up
14:28<Chaot_s>lucky the damned thing still runs
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14:30<@planetmaker>krinn, passenger and mail generation are in principle independent. Practically on average over a town they'll be a certain ratio averaged over all house types
14:31<krinn>for 141 houses and 2,4k people i have a 265 pass while just a 51 for mail, it looks really low
14:31<@planetmaker>I think it's usual
14:32<krinn>can't do money with that :)
14:32<@planetmaker>make a house set with higher mail generation ;-)
14:32<@planetmaker>or just a mod for an existing house set.
14:33<krinn>i'm busy enough like that ^^
14:39<Chaot_s>i have send the link in pm to some people.
14:39<@planetmaker>why not here?
14:39<Chaot_s>actualy... no clue, i'm just carefull with links to files
14:40<Chaot_s>though if that is needed it's okay too i'll paste the link here.
14:41<krinn>better not if you have critters playing with quota, what else do he do on your comp
14:41<Chaot_s>i was checking the ssh logs
14:42<Chaot_s>seems he had isseus with file permissions.
14:42<Chaot_s>i blocked the account and quota is rebuilding
14:42<Chaot_s>i thought i could trust him...
14:42<Chaot_s>seems i was wrong.
14:43<Chaot_s>i undid the damage done
14:44<Chaot_s>it's hard to know whe you can trust someone. he doesn't seem to be a person that messes with suff he doesn't knoow.
14:45<Chaot_s>though he actualy does. and that means he'll have to find someone else to host his irc bot
14:45<krinn>just to run an irc bot you gave him rights on quota?
14:46<Chaot_s>nope, he had some more stuff he can do. sort of a backup person for when i'm unavaileble. so he has root access
14:48<Chaot_s>that has been terminated now, and i'm in need of a new backup admin.
14:50<krinn>should speak with him, everyone do mistakes
14:51<Chaot_s>scrolling back to the history he has been messing a lot. he makes lots of mistakes when setting file rights, has actualy disabled selinux and added a repo without even setting protectbase or stuff like that.
14:52<Chaot_s>i could talk with him, though how to tell him that he's messing up stuff he shouldn't mess with
14:52<@planetmaker>^ those words
14:52<Chaot_s>he runs linux longer than i do...
14:53<Chaot_s>3 options... he IS a noob, He was very drunk, or he gave the account to someone else...
14:54<Chaot_s>any of those 3 options i don't realy like
14:55<Chaot_s>there are some live sites on that server, and there are some 4000 users on a forum thats vissited allot.
14:56<__ln__>*that's visited a lot
14:56<Chaot_s>i cant let that be messed up by someone for some funny IRC bot and the help of being backup admin.
14:57<Chaot_s>__ln__ : Thanks for the spelling correction. i'll try to remember that.
14:57<__ln__>you're welcome
14:58<Chaot_s>though it may be a tough job to correct all of them.
15:00<Chaot_s>planetmaker : the problem i have is on company 1, The feeding and the line swither in front of station "hellerdorp Bossen" have some strange things.
15:00<Chaot_s>i have messed with the signals to try and change the behavior.
15:02<Chaot_s>first question i have, the lower feeding line has a one-way path signal, and allon the path to the station a normal path signal. that was done in the hopes i could que trains in front of the station.
15:04<Chaot_s>more often then i like a train seems to choose a red signal and wait for the path to a station is cleared from te train that is leaving the station the platform.
15:05<Chaot_s>so if the train is departing the station (still on it due to the long length) a train will queue in front of the red signal. even though there are other paths free.
15:06<Chaot_s>mostly happens on the lower entry line, and with a train leaving on its most right route
15:08<@planetmaker>if you use path signals, make don't add another possible stopping point in front of the station. One path signal in front of the 1st split is enough and solves all your problems there
15:09<Chaot_s>so i cant have a queue in front of the station?
15:11<@planetmaker>well. you can. But then you have to accept that sometimes a train WILL wait at a red signal
15:11<@planetmaker>even if you keep those in front of the station, remove all other path signals except the very first one
15:12<@planetmaker>rule: put a path signal only where you want a train being able to stop. You have them (also) in places where it shouldn't stop
15:13<Chaot_s>okay, and what about the ide if i replace (as it used to be) the first path signal with an entry signal after the splitting place an exit signal and folow thoes up with normal signals?
15:14<Chaot_s>seen more spelling misstakes __ln__?
15:14<Chaot_s>hahahahaha :)
15:15<sla_ro|master>__ln__ is a bot?
15:16<__ln__>dunno, i haven't been turing-tested.
15:16<Chaot_s>sla_ro|master : not that i know, though he is very good in english :D
15:16<sla_ro|master>maybe his primary lang is english..
15:16*planetmaker doubts that
15:17<Chaot_s>okay so the entry / exit way is better though it sometimes takes a litle longer :)
15:17<__ln__>my primary foreign language yes
15:17<sla_ro|master>btw.. 1 month on openttd how much time in real world?
15:18<sla_ro|master>i think is 1 minute = 1 month, but im not sure..
15:18<krinn>with FF and pause it's hard to say, get your chrono
15:19<sla_ro|master>actually my server doesnt pause when someone joins
15:19<sla_ro|master>so.. never pause
15:19<@Rubidium>1 game day at normal speed is 2.22s
15:19<Chaot_s>planetmaker : th second question is wy trains seem to chose to swap to the lower line while the uper lane has a free and green exit path. if i understand the documentation on the site correctly the train should only swap lane's if the exit is blocked by a train.
15:20<krinn>no they swap also when their target is closer using the lower line
15:20<Chaot_s>is that due to path finder that sees the actual platform in the end is blocked wit a train?
15:21<Chaot_s>the lower line is further away actualy
15:21<krinn>eheh not the case for you so
15:21<Chaot_s>the same station though
15:22<@planetmaker>there are many factors for a path finder... curves, other trains, slopes,... and distance of course
15:22<@planetmaker>but less curves might be the reason
15:22<krinn>don't really remember but swap also on bridge speed no?
15:23<Chaot_s>okay seems that i need to be testing lots and lots more :D
15:25<sla_ro|master>another question, that udp queri can be hide to stop appearing on console?
15:26<Chaot_s>and the " Client #41 is slow, try increasing *net_frame_freq to a higher value!" line could be updated with a actual username.
15:27<@planetmaker>that's not un-ambigeous
15:28<@Rubidium>sla_ro|master: try openttd -D -dnet=0 (order IS important)
15:28<Chaot_s>__ln__ : do you provide translation support too? i don't understand the word not "un-ambigeous"
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>sla_ro|master: on the console after starting the server, set something like "debug_level net=0"
15:29-!-DanMacK [] has quit []
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise it defaults to 2 for dedicated servers
15:30<__ln__>Chaot_s: it's not non-english
15:30<krinn>Chaot_s, un-ambigeous -> clear
15:31<@planetmaker>it's ambiguous
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's "ambiguous"
15:31<Chaot_s>looking it up in a dictionary :)
15:31<krinn>well you said "un" :p
15:31<Chaot_s>i just dont understand the word
15:31<@planetmaker>krinn, "not un-" ;-)
15:31<krinn>lol yes
15:32<@planetmaker>not unique
15:32<+glx>planetmaker: stop playing with non native speakers :)
15:32<krinn>Chaot_s, kinda like "hard to decide, not clear, not really nicely define..."
15:32<@planetmaker>glx, :-(
15:32<__ln__>well what's unambiguous in belgiumish
15:32<krinn>clear :)
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>none of the people involved in this conversation is a native english speaker :p
15:33<Chaot_s>duidelijk, onduidelijk.
15:33<Chaot_s>clear, unclear.
15:33<+glx>true, but some have better understanding than others
15:33<krinn>i have learn drunkspeech at first language
15:34<krinn>it help a lot
15:34<Chaot_s>i'm doing my best, and __ln__ is trying to make it even better.
15:34<__ln__>"clear, unclear" is not the best translation for those in my opinion
15:34<__ln__>or rather explanation
15:34<@planetmaker>double meaning
15:34<@planetmaker>or multiple meaning
15:34<@planetmaker>non unique
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>while discussing language... where does the spelling "Iraq" come from? no other word in any language i know has a "q" without following "u"
15:35<Chaot_s>though i can't find out who clinet #42 is
15:35<@planetmaker>but the best is: use a dictionary and translate the English word into your mother tongue
15:35<__ln__>and 'unambiguous' is roughly 'unique', but not quite
15:35<Chaot_s>the translation doesn't help a lot actualy :D
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15:36<Chaot_s>it only makes is more (un?)ambiguous
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't _really_ know klingon ;)
15:37<Chaot_s>i like petak more :D it sounds somewhat... harsh :D
15:37<krinn>Chaot_s, you doubt, so it's ambiguous, if you don't than it's not
15:38<@planetmaker>Chaot_s, does your xterm display well a nick like... اء: لا جدوى ?
15:38<@planetmaker>do you have character support for that? On a dedicated server?
15:39<Chaot_s>planetmaker : in mirc it does show up
15:39<@planetmaker>you asked about a dedicated server's console
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: ok, but that isn't really a word either
15:40<Chaot_s>planetmaker : i got your point. showing a real name in the console would mess up output.
15:41<krinn>actually it was more (as we say here) a boat answer
15:41<Chaot_s>i didn't link that as an answer at fist.
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15:42<krinn>lol and before asking: boat answer because he will make you float and forget the question
15:42<Chaot_s>it seems like a good idea to hang arround here a lot longer.
15:43<Chaot_s>it helps improve my understanding of english.
15:44<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: al-Qaeda
15:44<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, IQ ?
15:44<Chaot_s>now #41 is shown since not all chars are printable on console, then how do i know who #41 is? the server runs in a screen session, so i can't scroll back to when #41 connected.
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that suggests some kind of transliteration
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: abbreviations obviously don't count
15:45<__ln__>krinn: it doesn't count, it's not a word
15:45<krinn>you must know german to answer that
15:46<krinn>or is it end in q in english?
15:46<__ln__>was bitte?
15:46<__ln__>krinn: in any language Eddi knows
15:47<krinn> lol he isn't the only one to ask that so
15:48<krinn>it's arabian words that end in q as i see
15:48<__ln__>there are some Swedish names (such as Husqvarna) that also don't have 'u', but afair q isn't part of modern-day Swedish spelling outside names.
15:49<krinn> this one is more known
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>never heard that before
15:50<krinn>really? i was thinking it's a common one
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>so the actual question is: who invented the arabic->latin transliteration?
15:51<__ln__>chuck norris, no?
15:52<krinn>and the answer should be arabs
15:53<krinn>as they conquer most country and gave lot of knowledge to them
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15:55<__ln__>i don't think they conquered any english-speaking country
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15:55<krinn>farer you were from africa, lesser impact of course
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i think you have a wrong precondition here
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15:57<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: konquered countries rather get imposed the writing method of the konqueror, not a transliteration
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>transliterations are rather from scientists and travellers
15:57<krinn>not by arabs, they moslty adapt and copy anything they get, rather than destroying
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>who travel to the foreign countries and then have to publish their works in their home country
15:58<krinn>travels were hard by those time, your traveller would certainly get the translate version from a closer country
15:59<krinn>let's say : original suq -> french souq -> near french but far arab translate than souq instead of the original suq... make that spree
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i am not speaking about medieval times, i'm speaking about modern times
16:00<__ln__>'suq' is already a translitteration, it can't be the original
16:00<krinn>well, for french we even re-use it
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>the arabic original will be سوق
16:01<krinn>here now souq describe a place with lot of noise/messy/not clean... a place where many people stands and noise & issue because of that
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16:01<krinn>considering it comes from arab market, it might be close to reality with crowd market & noise
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: over here, the word "basar" is more common
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>(which, as far as i can believe wikipedia, is of persian origin)
16:02<krinn>:P same here, we also use basard
16:03<krinn>it looks a bit the same as basard is a shop with lot of different stuff in it, and it mean for us, you will get hard time to find something in it
16:03<Prof_Frink>How bazaar.
16:03<krinn>quiet messy = basard
16:04<krinn>we also use "bordel"
16:04<krinn>eheh, coming from protitude house
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>that is quite something different in german :p
16:05<krinn> s/tude/tute
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i have never heard anyone use the word "Suq" or "Souq" before
16:06<krinn>come to south france, specially on spring, it's the souk at our beach
16:06<krinn>hmm, summer not spring
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>... if you pay, i'd gladly accept the invitation ;)
16:07<krinn>wOOt! bordel !
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16:09<__ln__>are the french less annoyed by some other non-french language than english? (spoken by a tourist)
16:10<krinn>to understand it or to hear it ?
16:11<krinn>french speak like 60% english 40% german as 1st language
16:11<krinn>next one is spanish/italian
16:11<krinn>italian is the one even you don't speak, that is really nice for french hears
16:12<krinn> <-- Eddi|zuHause 's teaser
16:13<krinn>not bad for march month no?
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16:47<+glx>krinn: french speak french only unless forced
16:50<krinn>:) of course
16:50<+glx>and even if they are forced they speak french :)
16:50<krinn>but the question was about what is less annoying for french when a tourist speak with them
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16:51<krinn>frenglish rule :)
16:56<Vadtec>cargodist is much more enjoyable imo, its not the same ol "take it from A and give it to B" stuff
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17:09<@Terkhen>good night
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17:10<Chaot_s>hmm, when planning route's or a passenger train, is it better to transport all to a central large hub (transfer) and from that point move them further with trains?
17:11<Chaot_s>or is it better to have a serries of trains that hops all destinations?
17:12<Chaot_s>or = for
17:13<Chaot_s>so loop arround, or point -> central hub -> point
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause>Vadtec: yes, but "enjoyable" does not outweigh code-maturity or conceptual inconsistencies
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17:16<dihedral>Chaot_s, that totally depends on who is playing and what this person is trying to do ;-)
17:18<Chaot_s>up until now i build one or 2 large hubs, have some trains loop between those two, and then plan 2 trains to all city's
17:19<Chaot_s>it seems to do the trick, they make money in most setups
17:19<Chaot_s>though some routes are much longer from city -> hub -> city
17:20<Chaot_s>then they would be from city to city in a long loop.
17:20<devilsadvocate>Chaot_s: personally, i've found that 'making money' is easy
17:21<devilsadvocate>i try to maintain some level of realism in my networks, although it doesnt always work
17:23<Chaot_s>okay, 272 trains and ~100 road vehicles bring in a 650 mil every game year.
17:23<Chaot_s>money isn't the problem, i would like it to be efficient.
17:23<dihedral>try not to level any land in a hilly map ;-)
17:24<SmatZ>[20:39:05] <Chaot_s> i have send the link in pm to some people. <== thanks for being a random chosen one :P
17:24<dihedral>that is rather cute :-D
17:25<Chaot_s>feeding lets say 40 city's / towns with 2 trains would mean 80 trains... while for example 40 trains looping arround would make more space for the cargo stuff :)
17:26*dihedral prefers feeding his mouth :-P
17:26<Chaot_s>SmatZ : i have spoken too you before :D and iirc you have been helpfull back then :D
17:27<SmatZ>Chaot_s: nah :) but thanks :)
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17:27<SmatZ>I wasn't here when you sent me that link
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17:29<Chaot_s>[20:07:18] <Chaot_s> hi all, can someone help me with some info on signals? i have build a rather large setup, and somehow i'm seeing strange things happening.
17:29<Chaot_s>[20:07:43] <SmatZ> #define strange_things crash_game()
17:29<Chaot_s>it took some time though :D
17:29<SmatZ>yeah, sorry, I was trying to be funny :D
17:30<SmatZ>I see your questions have been answered :)
17:30<SmatZ>you seem to be using PBS in a wrong way
17:31<Chaot_s>lol :D
17:32<SmatZ>Chaot_s: do you know a train can have more than one engine?
17:32<Chaot_s>i had the idea that a path signal would combine with a path signal
17:33<Chaot_s>SmatZ : nope i didn't know that actualy
17:33<Chaot_s>so i could hook up for example 2 or 3 lev4's
17:33<SmatZ>Chaot_s: just buy second engine and move it to the train... like when you move wagons
17:33<SmatZ>yes :)
17:33<SmatZ>then it won't take 100 tiles to accelerate to full speed :)
17:34<Chaot_s>indeed an isseu i have
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>you know what? not only Apple is a long-running april's fools joke, but also the (West-)German army. it was founded on 1st april 1956
17:34<Chaot_s>by the time its up to speed its allready slowing down for a corner :D
17:37<Chaot_s>with my game it wont work :S
17:37<Chaot_s>or i'm to stupid to do drag and drop.
17:38<Chaot_s>it's the later of the two.
17:38<Chaot_s>even though they are a pair, just drag them... not CTRL drag them :)
17:39<Chaot_s>whoot as if there where no cars at all :)
17:47<krinn>night all
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17:47<Chaot_s>sleep wel krinn
17:47<Chaot_s>that was... 2 seconds late
17:47<Chaot_s>thanx for that tip SmatZ :)
17:48<Chaot_s>they even outperform some normal trains :D
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18:00<welshdragon>can you disable Automatic orders?
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18:06<welshdragon>wake up
18:06<welshdragon>i've found a bug
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18:10<Vikthor>I am afraid it's too late to go out to buy an insecticide :)
18:10<__ln__>unless it's a bug that erased your hard drive and made your monitor emit x-rays
18:11<welshdragon>no no
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18:13<Chaot_s>welshdragon : not that i would be able to do anything about it, though i cant make heads or tails from those "details"
18:14<welshdragon>Chaot_s, it's simple:
18:14<welshdragon>you create a train that runs from point A to Z
18:15<welshdragon>you then clone the train and set it going, Train 2 calls at station A then Station C
18:15<welshdragon>and so it carries on
18:15<Chaot_s>so the order of its route is lost upon cloneing?
18:16<Chaot_s>lets test that,... haven't seen that as an isseu myself. and i clone lots of trains :)
18:17<welshdragon>look at the save attached
18:17<welshdragon>there's no non - stop orders involved
18:17<Chaot_s>since i was about to reshedule some trains... i'll test that right away so i can confirm that bug claim :D
18:17<Chaot_s>or not :D of course
18:18<Chaot_s>i would actualy doubt that to be honest. lots of players would notice that i think :D
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18:20<lugo>@commit 21642
18:20<@DorpsGek>lugo: Commit by rubidium :: r21642 /trunk/src (10 files in 2 dirs) (2010-12-26 09:03:19 UTC)
18:20<@DorpsGek>lugo: -Feature: concept of automatic station orders; add stub orders for intermediate stations and remove them when not visiting them anymore. This allows you to see what trains visit a station without actually having to order a vehicle to stop at all stations. Based on patch by fonsinchen
18:22<dada_>[00:11] welshdragon: <-- btw: you are cloning (getting shared orders) rather than copying (no shared orders), right?
18:22<Chaot_s>cloneing the trains in my case works as expected. build 1 train, give it the orders it needs, CTRL+Clone button, working like expected. (shared orders)
18:23<welshdragon>yes, I'm cloning
18:23<Chaot_s>same sequence in the orders.
18:23<Chaot_s>normal copy (no shared orders) works too
18:24<Chaot_s>i canot confirm that "misbehavior"
18:25<dada_>I haven't tested specifically but I frequently recompile from svn and haven't noticed anything out of the ordinary... but don't take my word for it.
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18:32<Chaot_s>i couldn't see that happening, my lists ->
18:32<Chaot_s>first 4 are clone with shared orders (they are okay) and last one is just a copy of the train
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18:36<dada_>dutch people are taking over the internet
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18:37<dada_>hm. I think magneetzweeftrein-spoorwegen should be written without a dash
18:38<dada_>(because magneetzweeftrein is an inheems woord)
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18:38<Chaot_s>nah, have seen more things that might be translated more clearly :D
18:38<dada_>I'd just call it maglev though (and then the dash would be appropriate)
18:38<Chaot_s>though thats a matter of opinion i think :D
18:39*dada_ uses english version anyway
18:39<Chaot_s>it was dutch by default.... somehow
18:39<dada_>that's neat
18:39<Chaot_s>no idea why though. it doesn't matter anyway
18:39<+glx>it detects OS language
18:40<dada_>yeah, I suppose that's pretty standard
18:40<Chaot_s>ah, thats mixed. my account is dutch indeed, though there is a french and english account too :D
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18:41<dada_>I have my account set to english even though I'm dutch because not everything is localized and I hate inconsistencies :P
18:41<Chaot_s>is that decided upon installation, or upon first run (account based)
18:41<Chaot_s>same idea here dada_
18:41<+glx>first run
18:41<Chaot_s>then thats why indeed its dutch for me :D
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19:03<Vadtec>Eddi|zuHause: possibly, but if i want code maturity ill play stock openttd, frankly, cargodist has revitalized openttd for me, it was just getting to mundane and repetative
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>Vadtec: sure, there is nothing wrong with that. i rather meant for it to be included in "stock openttd", there are certain requirements to be met
19:05<Vadtec>Eddi|zuHause: ah, if i knew more about graphs and how they are applied in code, id see what I could do about that, but graphs are something ive not had very much exposure to
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20:11*Chaot_s is pissed.
20:12<Chaot_s>some asshole is bashing on my rdp eventualy crashing my local desktop session
20:12<Chaot_s>the local session just freezes
20:13<Chaot_s>hope i'll find the asshole's ip
20:13<Chaot_s>it will be flooded for a long time
20:17<Chaot_s>does anyone know a tool that can create a popup when a certain tcp / udp port is queried?
20:31<fjb>1. Install a firewall. ". Don't flood back!
20:32<fjb>3. Watch your language.
20:32-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
20:34<Chaot_s>fjb : sorry was a litle upset
20:34<Chaot_s>there is a firewall active
20:34<Chaot_s>still when the firewall is supposed to forward that specific port :)
20:35<fjb>Filter the ips which are allowed to have the packets forwarded.
20:35<Chaot_s>those can be random...
20:36<Chaot_s>te remote locations are not know before i'm at that location.
20:36<fjb>I don't think they can be totally random.
20:36<Chaot_s>sometimes its a library, then its at a friends house
20:37<fjb>Then close the port while you don't need remote access.
20:37<fjb>You know the possible ip numbers of the library and of you friend.
20:38<Chaot_s>fjb : so you know every ip where you will be?
20:39<fjb>And never ever think about doing the same stuff to random people that happened to you just because somebody mage you angry.
20:39<Chaot_s>fjb : i already went a circle arround the block.
20:40<Chaot_s>its one thing to have the ability.
20:40<fjb>I know when I am at home and when not. And I know when I will be not at home. And I know when I will be at a place where I usually am and wehn I am not there.
20:40<Chaot_s>its the other that should help never using it
20:40<fjb>The sender adress ist usually spoofed. So you will only flood random people.
20:41<Chaot_s>that shouldn't be to hard to find.
20:41<Chaot_s>under normal circomstances you can find relay's fast enough
20:41<fjb>How will you find out if it is spoofed?
20:42<Chaot_s>setting up logging for the rdp port now, then i'll scan the ip.
20:42<fjb>You don't need a relay.
20:42<Chaot_s>i know he could spoof,
20:42<Chaot_s>or just use a hop / infected pc
20:42<fjb>He would be stupid to not spoof the address.
20:43<Chaot_s>though the data of the session needs to be returned somewhere
20:44<fjb>Only if he wants to use the service aou ofer, not if he only floods that port.
20:44<fjb>/ you offer
20:44<Chaot_s>he tries connecting
20:44<Chaot_s>he tries to connect to a desktop pc that has windows remote desktop running (rdp)
20:44<fjb>Yes, connecting, syn flood. No answers expected at his side.
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20:45<Chaot_s>the system logs show the auth failures
20:45<Chaot_s>so he is inputting data and awaiting a response
20:47<fjb>Then he usually uses a kind of relay. In any case you can not hit him. Beside that it is fobidden to hit back in many countries. And you don't only flood him, you also flood your own provider.
20:47<fjb>Flooding is a very stupid idea in any case.
20:48<fjb>A connection throtteling firewall helps.
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20:50<Chaot_s>fjb : i got the picture
20:50<Chaot_s>i'm of your type myself.
20:50<Chaot_s>thats why i went outside and took a walk arround the block
20:51<Chaot_s>to cool down and not do impulsive stupid stuff
20:51<Chaot_s>i have made that mistake before and don't intend to do that again.
20:53<Chaot_s>you gotta love iptables logging.
20:54<Chaot_s>the ip is not spoofed... and its actualy a distant known person
20:54<Chaot_s>its a user i know form a forum / irc net i host.
20:55<Chaot_s>blocked and hope i get a complaint tomorow
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20:55<Chaot_s>not that he will be that stupid, though i know he visits the meetings
20:56<Chaot_s>and thats where we will meet :)
20:56<Chaot_s>and have a nice and friendly chat :D
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21:00<fjb>Sounds better.
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21:10<Chaot_s>fjb : still here?
21:10<Chaot_s>seems like reloading ip tables disconnected me.
21:11<fjb>Not unlikely.
21:11<Chaot_s>did you get the last line from me about that i found out who actualy is doing this?
21:12<Chaot_s>okay, then the 2 reloads before the last one didn't disconncet me :D
21:14<fjb>Flushing the connection cache disconnects you.
21:14<Chaot_s>just wanted to make sure people don't think i'm leaving because someone taps my fingers (as i do apreciate)
21:14<Chaot_s>sometimes mirc doesn't have a problem with that :)
21:15<Chaot_s>as long as it isnt's on a busy network / room
21:15<Chaot_s>even though default policy is drop
21:16<Chaot_s>i just was a litle mad about the whole event
21:16<Chaot_s>this type of setup runs for years now, and never posed a problem.
21:16<fjb>You usually find a problem when somebody triggers it.
21:17<Chaot_s>normaly there is a virtual server that is somewhat messed up on the port
21:17<Chaot_s>forgot to remove the port forwarding last time
21:18<Chaot_s>thats why he attacked my desktop
21:18<fjb>Network security is not easy.
21:18<Chaot_s>the vbox is sort of a honeypot
21:18<Chaot_s>it has some incomming ports that are blocked
21:19<Chaot_s>outgoing is nearly fully blocked.
21:19<Chaot_s>the stats of the vbox are checked every 5 minutes
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21:20<Chaot_s>when traffic goes above 100Mb in 24 hour, the vbox is saved and shutdown
21:20<fjb>Honeypots are not that usefull. Secure your system and let the kids play.
21:20<Chaot_s>normaly i cary a usb stick with me with my ssh key's
21:21<Chaot_s>ssh runs on a higher port, since all below 1024 is blocked by my isp
21:22<Chaot_s>last few months have been eventfull and i'm messing up some things
21:22<Chaot_s>for example forgetting to change back the portforwarding
21:23<Chaot_s>i think i'll be going for a nother walk arround the block.
21:23<fjb>Sounds like a good idea.
21:23<Chaot_s>this time the long round, i'm still kind of pissed, i actualy know the person
21:24<Chaot_s>he actualy visits the meeting the team for which the system is running organizes
21:25<Chaot_s>thats what makes me wonder. why?
21:25<fjb>Most attacs come from the inside.
21:26<Chaot_s>ssh attacks most of the time seem to be form very far away countries.
21:26<Chaot_s>fail2ban provides some nice reportings
21:26<Chaot_s>even though its on a wierd port they still seem to find the ports
21:26<Chaot_s>maybe add some port knocking sequence
21:27<fjb>Port scanning.
21:27<Chaot_s>if he scans slow enough...
21:27<fjb>Use a cryptographic key instead of a password and disallow passwords for ssh.
21:29<Chaot_s>ssh is key only, and root login is denied.
21:30<Chaot_s>just use su - / sudo
21:30<Chaot_s>psad does detect scans
21:30<Chaot_s>and blocks acordingly
21:30<Chaot_s>though if you are scanning slow enough, it defeats most of the idea :D
21:32<fjb>Yes. And why worry, your system gets scanned any way. Shall they try to break your password when no passwords are allowed. Their problem, not my.
21:34<Chaot_s>the scan on its own isnt that bad.
21:35<Chaot_s>fjb : are you known with knockd?
21:37<fjb>I don't use any. It doesn't really enhance you security. And it is another part that may fail or be a security risk on its own.
21:37<Chaot_s>that was about my question :)
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 07 00:00:07 2011