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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-03-09

---Logopened Wed Mar 09 00:00:16 2011
00:00<supermop>should probably give it a rest for the night anyway and start to get ready for bed
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02:26<@planetmaker>moin
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03:12<Terkhen>good morning
03:14<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
03:14<@planetmaker>hehe. I wrote an answer in the iPod/... thread. And deleted it before hitting 'submit' ;-) - it contained also the sentence you wrote :-)
03:15<Terkhen>:)
03:15<Terkhen>well, if you want to go for cheap or free, windows is not an option
03:16<@planetmaker>quite so
03:16<Terkhen>IIRC Mac OS is quite cheap in comparison, and linux is free
03:16<@planetmaker>I paid about 30€ for this, yes
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03:17<Ammler>in most cases, windows is as free as linux
03:17<@planetmaker>not really
03:17<Terkhen>yes, as long as someone pays, they get a profit :P
03:17<Ammler>maybe even cheaper :-)
03:18<@planetmaker>you can go to the computer vendor and ask for a refund
03:18-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC3729.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
03:18<Terkhen>I usually use whatever version came with my laptop
03:18<Ammler>planetmaker: not in every country
03:18<@planetmaker>when it comes with a new one. Well. But in the whole EU
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03:43<Terkhen>meh, I have spent a day checking an error and it seems to be caused by floating point precision
03:44<@planetmaker>:-D those are somewhat the worst
03:44*andythenorth needs to learn how stations work with rail type overlays :o
03:44<andythenorth>or not
03:48*andythenorth wonders where bit 31 is lurking in station prop 09
03:49<andythenorth>ummm
03:49*andythenorth goes right off the idea of doing a station set
03:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you need to use a specific ground tile. I forgot the number, yexo knows
03:51<andythenorth>it's possible that I have badly misjudged how complicated stations are :(
03:52<andythenorth>to deal with different railtypes is going to be horrible
03:52<@planetmaker>why?
03:52<@planetmaker>you don't care about
03:54<andythenorth>I think I just don't understand the spec yet
03:54<andythenorth>it must be possible
03:55<andythenorth>I fail to see how to draw the base sprite + have track appear on it
03:55<andythenorth>(ground sprite)
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03:59<andythenorth>so where is bit 31 in a dword?
03:59<andythenorth>00 00 F0 00 ?
04:00<andythenorth>and what does station prop 13 bit 0 do?
04:00<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Stations#General_Flags_13_
04:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I mean it literally: as station you don't care about the railtype you are
04:01<@planetmaker>the only thing you need to do is to use a specific ground tile and it's handled automatically
04:01<@planetmaker>like 0x3FD or alike.
04:03<larsemil>morning
04:03<Terkhen>hi larsemil
04:03<@planetmaker>moin
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04:04<larsemil>wadduP?
04:14<dihedral>morning
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04:20*andythenorth finds another glitch with PBS overlays
04:20<andythenorth>stations like ISR marshalling yard
04:21<V453000>that one is bad imo :( does not fit actual rails
04:22<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I'm not entirely sure that the overlays are used...
04:22<@planetmaker>I think the full rail is drawn. But... it would need confirmation
04:23<andythenorth>last time I checked, the overlays include ballast pieces
04:23<@planetmaker>the pbs overlays don't.
04:23<andythenorth>iirc, there is a valid case for that somewhere, but it causes numerous other glitches
04:23*andythenorth checks
04:27<@planetmaker>to check my words: ballast = the stones and stuff. sleepers = only the things it's screwed on?
04:27<andythenorth>might be different in opengfx
04:27<andythenorth>hmm
04:27<andythenorth>the sleepers show not ballast, yes
04:27<@planetmaker>I doubt that
04:27<andythenorth>you're correct
04:27<@planetmaker>:-)
04:27<andythenorth>the effect with ISR marshalling yard is bizarre, because it has missing pixels
04:27<andythenorth>this one is probably an ISR problem
04:31*andythenorth wonders if rail junctions *always* had sleepers from one line drawn above the rails of another line?
04:31<__ln___>that doesn't sound realistic at least
04:32<andythenorth>think it was always the case, looking at screenshots of ttd
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04:40*andythenorth is baffled on about five fronts and will have tea
04:40<andythenorth>today is not a day for creating newgrf clearly
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04:55<@planetmaker>then make a trip into the bombay suburbs or country side ;-)
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06:13<zydeco>greetings
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06:18<Terkhen>hi zydeco
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07:55<sla_ro|master>i got activetcl with expect, where to install activetcl ?
07:55<sla_ro|master>*autopilot
07:59<@planetmaker>whereever you want to run openttd from
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08:31<dihedral>\o/ my EQ8 is ready
08:31<dihedral>AND i have my /27 subnet
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09:02<Eddi|zuHause>what am i doing wrong when it spams 300 errors about SLF_SAVE_NO (and similar) errors when compiling settings.cpp in settings.h?
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>hm... works now... must be a hiccups when updating
09:13<@Belugas>hello
09:14<andythenorth>quak
09:14<andythenorth>wrong animal :P
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+o Yexo] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+o Terkhen] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+o SmatZ] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
09:28-!-mode/#openttd [+v Rubidium] by ChanServ
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09:35<Eddi|zuHause>happy Aschermittwoch ;)
09:35<@peter1138>Happy what?
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, that's the day where carnival season ends
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>where people "get serious" again
09:36<@peter1138>Ah, so you're going to be no fun from now until when?
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>11.11.11 11:11
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>leo says it translates to "Ash Wednesday"
09:38<@peter1138>That's quite a long period :S
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>germans are serious most of the time :p
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09:40<Wolf01>hello
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09:49<confound>what does the little plus or cross to the left of some engines in the engine list (manage trains or new engine) mean?
09:49<confound>(this is ukrs)
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09:53<@planetmaker>click it
09:54<rane>what if it blows up the world
09:54<@planetmaker>oh, wait. There can be three different symbols.
09:54<@planetmaker>It tells you it's running good profit
09:54<@planetmaker>if you talk, for example, about the list of all trains you have.
09:55<@planetmaker>it has a "-" if it's running a loss
09:55<@planetmaker>and a normal coin if it is running a small profit
09:57<@planetmaker>confound, see http://wiki.openttd.org/Vehicle_lists
09:58<confound>no, this is when choosing a new vehicle, not next to an existing train.
09:58<@planetmaker>got a screenshot for me?
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10:00<confound>jussec
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10:01<confound>http://imgur.com/isp2V
10:02<confound>I thought at first it was a reminder like "this engine needs electrified rails" or something, but it's turned up next to some steam engines
10:07<@planetmaker>sorry, no idea right now
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (4+8)*4+4*2
10:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 56
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>@calc ((4+8)*4+4*2)/4)
10:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>@calc ((4+8)*4+4*2)/4
10:08<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 14
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (4*4+(8+4)*2)/(8+4)
10:09<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 3.33333333333
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (4*4+(8+4)*2)
10:09<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 40
10:11<confound>maybe it's something UKRS-specific and I should look there.
10:12<Sacro>Yeah, it is UKRS
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 48/8
10:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 6
10:13<confound>Sacro: do you know offhand what it means?
10:13<Sacro>I'm trying to remember :P
10:13<confound>heh
10:14*Sacro wonders if pikka is here
10:18<Wolf01>oh, sacro, again with us? :)
10:20<Sacro>yup
10:20<Sacro>I idle always :P
10:21<Wolf01>me too
10:22<andythenorth>@seen pikka
10:22<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 3 days, 4 hours, 53 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <Pikka> turkish spam on turkish bread?
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10:25<confound>sounds good to me
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11:07<supermop>good morning
11:08<@Yexo>good evening
11:08-!-Markavian [~Markavian@104.075.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:08<supermop>how's it going?
11:08<supermop>I haven't implemented that new code yet
11:09<@Yexo>holiday this week, so fine :)
11:09<supermop>but i am drawing some more more sprites now,
11:09<supermop>to creat a 4th generation, for monorail, HSR, and Maglev
11:10<supermop>the monorail's roof will be taller, so i want to finish that, then use it for the templates
11:10<supermop>you can look about 12 hours ago in the logs to see all sorts of boring rumination by me about depot architecture
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 8*2+8
11:27<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 24
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (8*2+8)/8*2
11:27<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 6
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (8*2+8)/(8*2)
11:27<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.5
11:30<supermop>hmm?
11:31<frosch123>while i use @calc 1 + 1 in queries to dorpsgek to test whether my connection broke down, i think eddi should definitely improve his mental arithmetics
11:33<supermop>yeah
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>nah... my mental arithmetics is fine as it is ;)
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12:00<dihedral>if he changed any part of his mentaliy it would no longer be Eddi|zuHause, would it now ;-)
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12:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm... in nml, the curvature info is split up into three variables, how can i access the "unsplit" variable? (http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/vehicles.html#vehicles-vars)
12:40<supermop>any germans around?
12:41<supermop>oh there we go
12:41<supermop>what gender would you give to quesadilla, if you had to?
12:42<supermop>if you were borrowing it into a german sentence
12:42*confound tries again
12:42<confound>anyone know what the + next to some engines is here? http://i.imgur.com/isp2V.png
12:43<@Terkhen>it's feminine in spanish
12:43<supermop>yeah
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quesadilla
12:43<andythenorth_>good night
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12:43<@Terkhen>confound: looks like something specific to the train set, you might have more luck asking at the set thread
12:43<confound>yeah, it's ukrs-specific
12:43<confound>thanks
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: above wikipedia entry suggests female
12:44<supermop>but i am having a ridiculous conversation in german with a friend,
12:44<supermop>about a fleischdilla
12:44<supermop>and a fleischdillabüde
12:45<confound>haha
12:45<supermop>no ü
12:45<supermop>sorry
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a "Bude" ;)
12:46<supermop>yeah
12:46<supermop>its been along time
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>putting in diacritics where they don't belong is very dangerous
12:46<supermop>learnt that word in 1997, have used it maybe 3 times since
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>words get completely different meaning, or completely unrecognizable...
12:47<supermop>i need to improve my german greatly
12:47<supermop>i have completely forgot all of the subjunctive
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12:47<supermop>I and II
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12:48<Eddi|zuHause>you can do without those... :)
12:49<supermop>hehe, hence they were the first i forgot
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12:49<supermop>but now i am losing even the basic stuff
12:53<supermop>actually wikipedi seems to have a lot of writing in subjunctive I
12:53<supermop>that or i am so clueless that it looks like it to me
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12:55<supermop>Hey Yexo, when Chips comes out, could i have my shed grf detect it and use your ground textures instead of mine?
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: passive is common, conditional is not...
12:55<@Yexo>you can't use graphics from another grf, you'll have to include them in your grf too
12:55<supermop>thats what i mean
12:56<supermop>but you won't mind?
12:56<@Yexo>I don't draw any graphics
12:56<@Yexo>andy draws them, they're licensed as gpl, so if you comply with that you're fine
12:56<supermop>ok,
12:56<supermop>i think i made MLSS GPL2
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: seen my question above?
12:57<@Yexo>not yet, but I've seen it now
12:58<@Yexo>var[<num>, <shift>, <and-mask>] works for all variables
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13:00<@Yexo>var[0x45, 0, 0x0F0F0F] <- that gives you the curvature info
13:00<supermop>i thought subj ii was conditional, subj i was indirect discourse
13:01<@Yexo><supermop> i think i made MLSS GPL2 <- there is nothing about that in the forum topic, but as only author you're free to change the license however you want
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: thanks
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: is that documented somewhere?
13:01<@Yexo>don't think so
13:03<supermop>yexo, i thought i noted that on bananas
13:03<supermop>but i can update it
13:03<supermop>it needs a new release soon
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>something different: if i change the sprite for a wagon, it also changes in the vehicle details. is there some way to separate the two?
13:03<supermop>might rewrite it in nml
13:04<@Yexo>hmm, vehicle details is the same sprite as the menu list, right?
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>you sure?
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>i might try that then
13:06<@Yexo>no, that was probably wrong
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13:06<@Yexo>I don't think there is any way to separate them
13:06<@Yexo>frosch123: any ideas?
13:10<frosch123>currently there is no way to separate them
13:10<frosch123>and no, it is not the purchase sprite, nor would it work
13:11<frosch123>as the sprite need to depend on the consist
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>maybe a flag like "in depot" -> "in vehicle details/vehicle list"?
13:12<frosch123>hmm, i thought i wrote something on that topic in the "vehicle views" topic
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>currently, they change shape depending which sprite i choose by curvature info, and that doesn't make a lot of sense.
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure the airplanes do that as well when they show different sprites for starting/landing
13:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: currently the sprite is not resolved for the gui
13:14<frosch123>but cached and only updated when the vehicle moves
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13:15<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=919433#p919433 <- found it
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not really sure i understand everything you say there...
13:20<frosch123>it's mainly about: currently the sprite is resolved when the vehicle turns, and then always the same sprite is drawn on the map, the gui or whereever
13:21<frosch123>you can remove the caching and resolve the sprite for every drawing. that way you get more freedom what to draw (as you do not space to store the result)
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13:22<frosch123>the rest is about not having a idea whether the current caching actually speeds anything up, or whether it just a waste of time to resolve and cache sprites for vehicles which are not drawn at all
13:22<frosch123>(though of course one could also try to resolve the sprite only on first use, and then cache it; but that is not what ttd/ottd does)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>what about ignoring the cache in the GUI?
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>or having a separate GUI cache
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause>where in the code is this cache?
13:27<frosch123>hmm, actually i might be totally wrong :s
13:30<frosch123>yeah, looks like the caching is only done for on-the-map
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13:31<frosch123>so, maybe we should just pass something via var 10 when drawing for the gui
13:31<frosch123>iirc var 10 already passing something for drawing other stuff
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>the specs are a bit low on words for usage of var 10
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13:40<pasky_>someone should write a turing machine emulator newgrf
13:41<frosch123>newgrfs are not turing complete
13:41<frosch123>(intentional)
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically they are (save memory space), but only during loading stage
13:44<pasky_>hmm, it's been a long time
13:45<@Terkhen>what are they missing?
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: during callbacks, you can't make loops
13:46<frosch123>they are only decision trees
13:46<@Yexo>which is sometimes annoying
13:46<@Terkhen>hmm... I see
13:46<@Yexo>I do have a use-case for a simple loop
13:46<frosch123>really?
13:46<@Yexo>a station with a buffer on a single side
13:47<@Yexo>autodetect which side borders the most industry tiles and build the buffer on that side
13:47<@Yexo>it can be done without a loop, but it's easier with one
13:47<frosch123>well, you have procedures :)
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: why not use rail continuation information for buffers?
13:48<@Yexo>sorry, I meant platform, not buffer
13:48<supermop>ah
13:48<@Yexo>see http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/chips/nightlies/r25/log/chips.nfo sprite 19
13:48<@Yexo>right now it's a varaction2 with +- 200 operators
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm doing something wrong... my GDB doesn't show debug information for openttd
13:50<@Yexo>did you configure with --enable-debug ?
13:50<@Yexo>try --enable-debug=3 if you used a lower level
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure i did
13:50<@Yexo>frosch123: already using procedures, but there use is limited when you have two values that constantly change
13:50<pasky_>hmm, somehow i got it stuck in my mind that loops are possible in newgrfs, but i think i was really wrong
13:51<@Yexo>pasky_: loops are possible in the grf loading stage, just not during callbacks
13:51<pasky_>how are they done in loading stage?
13:51-!-pasky_ is now known as pasky
13:51<@peter1138>goto :)
13:51<@Yexo>action 9 jumping to an action 10 that was defined before it
13:52<pasky>oh so it can jump to previous labels
13:52<pasky>somehow the specs confused me
13:52<pasky>should've looked at the code directly :)
13:52<pasky>thanks
13:52<@Yexo>Since 2.0.1 alpha 70, duplicate labels are fully supported. The jump will always be to the first matching label that follows. If no matching label follows, the first matching label in the file will be used instead.
13:52<@Yexo>^^ spec looks pretty clear to me
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i had this weird effect before: a crashlog can resolve the backtrace, but gdb cannot
13:53<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: strange, now idea how that can happen
13:55<pasky>Yexo: of course if you read all of it, i just glanced at "skips sprites" in the description :)
13:55<frosch123>pasky: you are lucky that noone of us knows what you implemented yourself :p
13:56<@Yexo>don't blame the specs when you don't read them all :)
13:56<pasky>;-)
13:57<pasky>frosch123: no, at my times there were no labels yet
13:57<pasky>just checked
13:58<frosch123>ah, bad luck for you. your stuff is already in the new svn
13:58<frosch123>so blame works :p
13:58<pasky>:P
13:59<pasky>i'm using the git mirror of course :)
14:00<pasky>oh there weren't even callbacks, okay, that really was primitive
14:04<frosch123>interesting r2130 knows a2 types 80 to 83, but no word and dword stuff
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14:13<supermop>is it just me, or do trees in ottd form areas of primarily one species?
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14:18<frosch123>are you playing tropic?
14:19<supermop>no, just looking at people's screenshots
14:20<supermop>it seems that if you zoom all the way out on a heavily wooded map
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14:20<supermop>instead of being a uniform mix, there are areas that are more pine, or more oak etc
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14:31<Wolf01>supermop, it's more rrrrrrrealistic so, usually trees tend to be grouped because of seeds...
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14:35<supermop>yeah, i like it
14:35<supermop>I was wondering what mechanism ottd uses to acheive this
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause>it would be helpful if the sprite picker would not only display the "global" sprite number, but also the "grf-local" sprite number
15:20<@Yexo>I don't think that information is still available
15:20<frosch123>yup, not available
15:21<frosch123>err, wait, it is
15:21<frosch123>due to 32bpp
15:21<frosch123>the spritecache knows the number, but that is quite hidden
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15:29<anonymou>What revision do most players online use?
15:30<@peter1138>Check http://servers.openttd.org/
15:30<anonymou>peter1138: Thanks.
15:31<anonymou>Stable it is, then.
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15:42<anonymou>Anybody want to test an OS X build?
15:43<frosch123>http://binaries.openttd.org/releases/1.1.0-RC2/openttd-1.1.0-RC2-macosx-universal.zip <- that one?
15:43<anonymou>One for 1.0.5.
15:44<frosch123>what's the point in testing 1.0.5? :p
15:44<anonymou>No OS X bundle and seems the majority of the servers use it.
15:44<anonymou>I'm sure the code is fine.
15:44<anonymou>Just not sure about the bundle.
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15:46<zydeco>what could be wrong about it?
15:46<@planetmaker>anonymou: there are several people who offer them. And 1.0.5 is... somewhat... a discontinued branch ;-)
15:46<anonymou>Oh.
15:46<anonymou>Good to know.
15:46<anonymou>Though, don't tell the people running the servers.
15:47<anonymou>Only thing I could think of are dependency issues.
15:47<@planetmaker>there are no official 1.0.x builds
15:47<@planetmaker>and yes, deps are the usual thing which fail
15:47<@planetmaker>If you don't build with static
15:47<@Rubidium>zydeco: at the most general level: missing files
15:47<zydeco>otool -L should show what it depends on
15:47<@planetmaker>also good evening everyone :-)
15:47<@Rubidium>either the license, or required files such as translations
15:48<anonymou>Forget it.
15:48<anonymou>I'll go with 1.1.0
15:48<@peter1138>Which doesn't exist? :D
15:48<@planetmaker>./configure --enable-universal --enable-static && make bundle_zip
15:49<@planetmaker>hehe
15:49<anonymou>Well, the RC.
15:49<anonymou>Picky, picky.
15:49<@planetmaker>there are two
15:49<@planetmaker>yes, picky. Because it matters. A lot
15:49*anonymou leaves for less ornery endeavors.
15:50<anonymou>What's the differences between RC1 and 2?
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15:51<@Yexo>anonymou: go to http://www.openttd.org/en/download-testing and click on "changelog" on the right
15:51<zydeco>bugfixes?
15:52<@planetmaker>crash fixes even ;-)
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16:05<Eddi|zuHause>http://nopaste.php-q.net/465849 <-- i seem to be doing something wrong. case 1 and 3 don't seem to be reached, i only get 2 and 4 ingame
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16:06<Eddi|zuHause>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=VarAction2Vehicles#Curvature_info_45_ (for reference)
16:07<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: front->cur = 45* curve. cur->next = 45* curve, but front->next = no curve?
16:07<@Yexo>seems like impossible combination to me
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>oh... right... mixed up the numbers
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>the weird thing is: i checked exactly that before, and then shuffled it around...
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>i must have been drunk or something :p
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>seems to work now
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>having a vehicle drive while ctrl+b (bounding boxes) is active leaves stale white lines behind
16:22<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: not only in that case...
16:22<frosch123>already mentioned in the commit log back then
16:22<@SmatZ>it's mostly a debug feature :P
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't understand how i can deterministically derive the anchor point of a sprite...
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16:26<frosch123>for most sprites it is the back corner of the bounding box
16:27<frosch123>the one which is not drawn :)
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i need to single-step a train :(
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>(back and forth)
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17:49<Wolf01>'night
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17:54-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!*@41.234.205.101] by planetmaker
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18:03<@Terkhen>good night
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21:03<Nemoder>how do I enable ai on a dedicated server?
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21:11<Eddi|zuHause>easiest way: edit the config in a client, and copy the openttd.cfg into the server
21:14<Nemoder>I think I just had the ai in the wrong directory
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23:00*andythenorth would like to moan about cargos that change their weight depending what vehicle is carrying them :P
23:00<andythenorth>which is already known to be stupid
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 10 00:00:16 2011