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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-03-14

---Logopened Mon Mar 14 00:00:29 2011
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02:45<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:57<Stefano_Gig>hi ^^
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07:10<George>Hi. Question about bananas. Is it possible to change version description without uploading the GRFs?
07:11<George>I wrote 14 mar 2010 instead of 2011 :(
07:17<@planetmaker>not without database hacking
07:17<@planetmaker>hello also :-)
07:24<@planetmaker>and the only person who can do so is Rb
07:41<George>So you think I sould just leave it as is?
07:42<George>Hello also :)
07:42<@planetmaker>Well, depends on how grave you consider this lapse.
07:43<@planetmaker>Personally I'd not consider it much important. But personally I also leave out the date from the versions
07:43<@planetmaker>as it in my eyes makes it harder to find the last one due to too many numbers in the version
07:44<George>BTW, may be bananas can be improved to use GRF version ("INFO" -> "VRSN") instead?
07:44<George>Then the only question would be to specify in GRF correctly
07:44<@planetmaker>That probably would be nice :-) even though it's an internal number only. And successive grfs may come without
07:45<@planetmaker>good ones, of course come with it ;-)
07:46<George>Who should be contacted with this suggestion?
07:47<@planetmaker>good question. Probably the bug tracker, section bananas, is a good place
07:47<@Rubidium>The version is hardcoded in the filename of the tars, so changing that ain't possible
07:48<@planetmaker>ah, yes, forgot about that
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07:49<George>Rubidium: the question is would be possible to make bananas read this value from GRF instead of manually putting it. Same way as GRFID
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08:05<Pulec>anyone plays openttd on netbook here?
08:05<Pulec>1024x640 is quite small for all windows but its still ok
08:06<Pulec>better then any most portable devices except those big tablets with 1366px
08:06*planetmaker doesn't play on a netbook but often has a window smaller than that
08:06<Pulec>one can learn on play on that small screen
08:06<Pulec>its all about window managing
08:06<@planetmaker>well. when I occasionally need many windows (when?) I can still enlarge it.
08:06<Pulec>but nothing stops to connect a bigger screen
08:07<@planetmaker>oh, sure things stop me. Like I don't move my big screen onto my lap when sitting comfortably on the couch
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>remember when you only had 640x480 screens, which the game was designed for?
08:07<Pulec>true that
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08:08<Pulec>i can play comfortably in bed and even with very small touchpad that samsung nc10 has its still very playable and fun
08:08<Pulec>hehe i played TTD on 15" screen
08:08<Pulec>it was 800x600 maybe
08:09<Pulec>but I cant really understand how OpenTTD can be playable on ppc or 480x320 devices
08:09<Pulec>or smaller screens 320x240
08:09<Pulec>its very limited...
08:09<@planetmaker>Pulec, 13" is sufficient and my full-screen size ;-)
08:10<@planetmaker>but much smaller is not nice indeed
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>i only have a 27" monitor
08:10<Pulec>13" with what resolution?
08:10<@planetmaker>and often windows are not designed for smaller than 640x480
08:10<Pulec>hehehe 27 :)
08:10<@planetmaker>Pulec, 13" with 1280x800
08:10<Pulec>thats nice
08:11<Pulec>good for playing Minecraft too
08:11<@planetmaker>two computer game obsessions are enough, no need to start a 3rd ;-)
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08:22<DanMacK>Hey all
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09:09<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:10<@Belugas>hi planetmaker
09:20<Eddi|zuHause># Und fliegt das Kraftwerk in die Luft, fängt jeder an zu strahlen
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09:22<@planetmaker>Und aus dem Keller ertönt das eintönige Geräusch der Bartwickelmaschine. ;-)
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09:28<@planetmaker>It's like "wir wollen lächeln und nicht strahlen"
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i just googled around... this "Bartwickelmaschine" phrase is really unknown here...
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>maybe only noble people can afford such a thing :p
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>"Wir hatten doch nüscht damals!"
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09:57<krinn>i hit a strange error, anyone see a reason why
09:57<krinn>local vehList = AIVehicleList();
09:57<krinn>if (vehList.HasItem(veh)) vehList.RemoveItem(veh);
09:58<krinn>endup with an error "the index 'RemoveItem' does not exist
09:59<krinn>it's on openttd 1.0.5, AIAbstract list have the RemoveItem protected functions, and from doc AIVehicleList() is a AIAbstractList
10:12<@Yexo>protected functions are not exposed to squirrel
10:13<@Yexo>either do something like: local vehList = AIList(); vehList.AddList(AIVehicleList());
10:13<@Yexo>or update to 1.1
10:14<krinn>this should works with 1.1 so ? now that AIList have the function itself, i suppose any list are AIList now ?
10:15<krinn>cool thanks
10:15<krinn>i solve it with : .SetValue(veh,-1); vehList.RemoveValue(-1);
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10:40<Hyronymus>yexo, can you have a read on the mod section of the forum
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10:44<@Yexo>done, your message if fine
10:44<@Yexo>I do expect more ranting, although I hope not
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10:48<Hyronymus>we'll see
10:48<Hyronymus>get your pacifiers ready :)
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11:48<krinn>Yexo: is there a way to get the refit capacity of an engine without actually building it ?
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11:52<krinn>Yexo, i mean you can have engine X with capacity 10 pass (AIEngine.GetCapacity) can be refit to mail (AIEngine.CanRefitCargo), but how can i know before building it that "mail capacity will be Z when refit"?
11:52<@Yexo>not possible
11:52<@Yexo>no support from the newgrf specs, so impossible to do for openttd
11:54<krinn>this nearly render unusable the option for an ai
12:01<@Yexo>yes, buying a single wagon, refitting it and storing the capacity is the only way
12:02<krinn>a fast buy/sell doesn't imply money lost ?
12:03<@Yexo>only a little
12:03<krinn>hmmm, too hard :)
12:03<@Yexo>the value of a vehicle diminishes over time
12:03<krinn>should buy every vehicle in game at start, refit them to any possible cargo they can be refit with, get the info and sell them
12:04<krinn>big money lost
12:04<@Yexo>even that isn't completely failsafe
12:04<krinn>and this is worst for new engine (not a proof the ai have the money to buy that engine when it came out to test that)
12:04<@Yexo>the amount of cargo after refitting can depend on a lot of things, for example the year you refitted the vehicle
12:05<krinn>sad such great feature became nightmare for a "simple" missing query
12:05<krinn>and i suppose some newgrf are also dumb like "10 capacity for pass, refit to mail with 1 capacity"...
12:06<@Yexo>I doubt any are as dumb as that
12:06<krinn>never seen it before, but even human can't get the info
12:07<krinn>funny i didn't notice that when playing
12:07<krinn>i wonder how many players refit their engine :)
12:08<@planetmaker>krinn, I guess they mostly refit the whole train
12:09<@planetmaker>But different capacities for different cargos is around a lot.
12:09<krinn>for train it's easy, not so many wagons to trys, but airplanes :p
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12:10<@planetmaker>what about airplanes?
12:11<krinn>it's not really doable to buy an airplane to check it's refit capacity, airplane cost a lot, not like wagon
12:11<@planetmaker>possibly you can get a list of refittable cargoes. But capacities is something the player has to test, too
12:11<@planetmaker>krinn, why is that not possible? Of course it is
12:11<@Yexo>but you can buy/refit/sell within a few ticks, so most of the time you won't lose any money at all
12:11<@planetmaker>money is not an issue
12:12<krinn>Yexo, just check, human have big refit cost
12:12<@Yexo>ah, didn't think of the refit costs
12:12<@planetmaker>and in order to create some initial money just setup a passenger air route half accross the map. Then you're set
12:12<krinn>now looking at bakewell luckett: 200pass -> refit to any for 19,850, not something cheap
12:13<@planetmaker>well. But that's what you as player have to do, too
12:13<krinn>i have money flow running planetmaker don't worry, it's just i was looking at the refit option
12:14<@planetmaker>krinn, yes. But if money is no issue, a bit refit cost doesn't hurt you either ;-)
12:14<@planetmaker>And you'd only test that, if you know you need to ship XY via air route
12:14<krinn>it's a bit a pitty, you can passby good engine without knowing it
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12:16<krinn>say you have a "TT engine" doing 10pass refit to mail it could do 12 mail, better than many engine with less 12 mail capacity...
12:16<@planetmaker>well, I compare a new engine to the ones I'm running. And then I decide upon autoreplace or not
12:16<@planetmaker>and engine refit... I take it as bonus. Not as something to rely on
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12:16<@planetmaker>that's what I have wagons for
12:17<krinn>might work for a human, but i'm speaking about an ai
12:17<@planetmaker>where's the difference?
12:17<krinn>well, i suppose a human will give up after 3-4 trys
12:18<krinn>the AI will give up after gone 0 money
12:18<krinn>or end up all tests
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12:20<@planetmaker>krinn, why would an AI do that?
12:20<@planetmaker>It's up to you to stop after 3...4 tries
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12:21<krinn>because you can't guess 3-4 trys will be enough to get the best engine you're looking for
12:21<@planetmaker>it depends on 'best'
12:22<lugo> :o
12:22<krinn>in that case, i just speak about capacity
12:22<@planetmaker>which might be any combination of power, TE, speed and running costs (from my POV)
12:22<@planetmaker>engine capacity is boring and irrelevant to me
12:22<@Yexo>krinn: for fun: the speed can depend on the current cargo type the vehicle is refitted too
12:23<DanMacK>lugo, Interesting link...
12:23<krinn>^^ Yexo
12:23<@planetmaker>Yexo, but only in the first half of months in odd years ;-)
12:23<lugo>DanMacK, :p
12:23<krinn>planetmaker, of course capacity isn't all, but this value "should" always be in your heuristic decision
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: in non-leap-years ;)
12:24<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, in leap years, it's the 2nd half of months ;-)
12:24<krinn>why whould you pickup an egnine that cost 1$ run at 304330434 miles/s with a 0 capacity
12:24<@planetmaker>krinn, because the engine pulls wagons
12:24<@planetmaker>an engine is an engine. And not a wagon. For me at least
12:24<krinn>you can't live without trains in your head :)
12:25<@planetmaker>krinn, yes. No point to run only engines. Unless it's a rail bus ;-)
12:26<@Yexo>planetmaker: krinn is not only talking about train engines, but also about road vehicles/aircraft
12:26<@Yexo>where you only buy a single 'engine' and no wagons
12:27<@planetmaker>:-) I prefer to call that vehicle - even though I know it all has an 'engineID'
12:27<krinn>well, i refer as the vehicle as a build engine :)
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12:37*Terkhen also finds that link interesting
12:37<@Terkhen>I wonder if it will allow to disable stockpiling via parameter
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12:39<lugo>DanMacK, :p
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12:52<@planetmaker> c->money = c->current_loan = 100000ll * _economy.inflation_prices; <-- that line reads wrong, Eddi|zuHause
12:55<Hyronymus>what are the || for?
12:58<@planetmaker>ask Eddi|zuHause ;-)
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12:58<Hyr|LeShave>time to get rid of that 5 day beard
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13:09<Eddi|zuHause>the "ll" means "long long"...
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>i found the actual error, though
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure about the internal type-casting... i was putting the "ll" there to make sure things are treated as 64bit-int... which might or might not be the case
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's definitely not wrong, though
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13:16<@planetmaker>he, I read it as || (logical or) and wondered
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause>you need a proper font then ;)
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'm gone... do with the patch what you want...
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>imho it's a sensible idea, and it doesn't really change any gameplay
13:18<Prof_Frink>\o/ Drowning babies!
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13:21<Eddi|zuHause>PS: the real error was that i didn't guttenberg the other line properly :p
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13:31<@planetmaker>haha :-)
13:32<@planetmaker>I like that verb :-P
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13:48<Zonta>Good Morning afternoon
13:48<Zonta>I want to know if its possible to have a patch for my server to limit terraforming?
13:50<Ammler>there is a setting
13:51<Ammler>(construction.terraform_per_64k_frames and construction.terraform_frame_burst)
13:52<Ammler>another alternative is using basecost mod to make terraforming quite expensive
13:53<Zonta>Is the terraform option is available in the gui?
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14:03<Ammler>Zonta, basecost mod has GUI :-)
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14:10<CIA-7>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22251 /branches/1.1/ (. bin/data/opntitle.dat src/object_gui.cpp):
14:10<CIA-7>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
14:10<CIA-7>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Object variable 0x48 was not available in callback 0x15C (r22231)
14:10<CIA-7>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Update: the intro game (romazoon)
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14:18<Zonta>this feature construction.terraform_per_64k_frames is available only in 1.1 or its good to use in 1.0.5?
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14:20<frosch123>1.1 only
14:21<Zonta>That a problem
14:21<Zonta>Ok well
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14:24<@planetmaker>no problem ;-)
14:25<Ammler>[19:03] <Ammler> Zonta, basecost mod has GUI <-- ;-)
14:25<Ammler>but without gui on 1.0.5
14:27<Zonta>yeah but i don't want to increase the price of the terraforming i just want to limit it :p
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14:27<Zonta>like in this 1.1 option
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15:03<CIA-7>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22252 /branches/1.1/ (46 files in 5 dirs):
15:03<CIA-7>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
15:03<CIA-7>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not resort town, industry and signs list directly in
15:03<CIA-7>OpenTTD: OnInvalidateData(). There might be a scheduled rebuild which needs execution
15:03<CIA-7>OpenTTD: first. So, only set a trigger for resorting [FS#4546] (r22249, r22248, r22247,
15:03<CIA-7>OpenTTD: r22246, r22245, r22244, r22243, r22242, r22241, r22236, r22228, r22227, r22226)
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15:22<confound>is there a default keybinding to just close the last window opened rather than 'close everything'?
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15:28<@Belugas>ctrl+alt+left shift + del
15:28<@Belugas>ho... no.. already taken
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15:54<Prof_Frink>Belugas: Emacs keybindings for ottd?
15:54<@Belugas>Emacs? dunno
15:54<@Belugas>no iToy for me
15:54<@Belugas>or else..
16:06<@peter1138>Emacs, not iMacs :)
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16:11<@Rubidium>it's still a toy ;)
16:13<@peter1138>Emacs? yeah
16:13<@peter1138>Real coders use vim :D
16:14<@Belugas>and real administrators wine
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16:16<@Belugas>that feels like a unix joke...
16:18<Prof_Frink>No, it's a reference.
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17:15<CIA-7>OpenTTD: frosch * r22253 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Change: Apply the same inflation to the initial loan as to the maximum loan. Note that this is no change to the economy; it only saves players some clicks when starting companies in later years. (Eddi)
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17:22<krinn>where can i found the name of internal game settings like this one ? AIGameSettings.GetValue("vehicle.max_trains"))
17:24<Spoons>Read the openttd.c*nf.
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17:25<krinn>thank you FauxFaux, looks like it is :)
17:26<frosch123>or "list_settings" in console
17:26<@SmatZ>krinn: list_settings console command
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17:27<FauxFaux>krinn: Or you can use 'list_settings' in the console.
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18:02<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that was quick... why do people complain that their patches take years until they get included? :p
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18:03<krinn>because the complainers are french, and it's a national sport here ?
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18:12<@Terkhen>good night
18:13<krinn>good night
18:14<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: I would rather complain that your patches got too fast to trunk :-P
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that is really not my fault.
18:14<Ammler>that is true, I wouldn't blame you :-)
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>plus, the "patch" you mean was neither my patch, nor my idea...
18:15<Ammler>well, I have no idea about the current patch
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18:19<Eddi|zuHause>it really does nothing.
18:19<Ammler>yeah, my comment was just a generic comment to your question ;-)
18:21<Ammler>patches, which change gameplay are bad for us as we can't revert those like you
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18:23<Ammler>I meant you
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18:23<Ammler>I know, you don't take that serious, as you don't care about us poor MPlers :-P
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18:24<CIA-7>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22254 /trunk/src/settingsgen/settingsgen.cpp: -Codechange: Make settingsgen only update the output file if it actually changed.
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20:06<@SmatZ>hmm @ FS#4553 ... "I cannot add or delete any NewGRF and if I'm using ECS"
20:07<@SmatZ>I remember seeing that somewhere
20:07<@SmatZ>but I can't find that at tt-forums anymore... maybe it was here?
20:07<@SmatZ>but I think he was explained it has nothing to do with ECS...
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20:47<confound>FIRS is pretty fun.
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 15 00:00:31 2011