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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-03-15

---Logopened Tue Mar 15 00:00:31 2011
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03:01<@Terkhen>good morning
03:05<@planetmaker>hm.... they got a broken containment vessel, dangerous radiation levels and wind in Tokyo directions :S
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05:51<@Terkhen>hi peter1138 and Wolf01
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06:32<dihedral>\o/ attacks on a clients server ....
06:32<dihedral>DDOS ...
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06:59<pikka>what the
07:01<pikka>I'm on a bus
07:06<Vikthor>#Another one rides the bus. Another one rides the bus. And another one comes on, and another one comes on. Another one rides the bus. :)
07:09<@peter1138>That doesn't fix.
07:10<dihedral>no, not really
07:11<Mazur>Busje komt zo, busje komt zo, busje komt zo, busje komt zo...
07:12<Vikthor>It doesn't? :(
07:13<Mazur>"Comes on" should be one syllable.
07:13<@peter1138>"And another comes on" or "And another one's on"
07:16<Vikthor>Oh, right
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07:56<pikka>and that was odd
07:56<pikka>the things you see on night shift...
07:59<pikka>some random people liked my hat and wanted to take a photo with me
08:00<pikka>it is a pretty nice hat admittedly
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08:57<andythenorth>gah the ship pathfinder sucks :P
08:57<andythenorth>it's having a lot of trouble routing past industries at sea
08:57<andythenorth>a bouy on every tile might help :P
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09:11<Ammler>invisible ship routes :-)
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09:28*andythenorth has idea
09:28<pikka>invisible sandvich
09:29<andythenorth>mr. bird
09:29<andythenorth>my sandwich is visible
09:29<andythenorth>I am eating it
09:29<andythenorth>can't you see it?
09:29*pikka is home now, might as well stop ircing on my phone
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09:30<V453000>hi Pikka :p
09:30<Pikka>no I do not see your sandvich
09:30<andythenorth>pikka: I have played with this UKRS2 thing...
09:30<Pikka>therefore, it is invisible
09:30<andythenorth>must be invisible
09:30<andythenorth>it is good
09:31<V453000>I just wanted to ask about UKRS2 ... are there some fast cargo engines planned? :)
09:31<andythenorth>they are fast :o
09:31<Pikka>fast cargo engines like what, V453000?
09:31<V453000>like GEC91 from UKRS, which is express only now
09:31<V453000>or even the wardales
09:32<andythenorth>but the wagon speed limits make that pointless no?
09:32<V453000>wagon speed limits are stupid
09:32<Pikka>not everyone plays with wagon speed limits andythenorth
09:32*planetmaker doesn't
09:33<andythenorth>people play differently to me :o
09:33<Pikka>I think people who don't are strange and aren't playing the set as designed, but I'm not going to force it on them unlike some people *cough*canset*cough*
09:33<V453000>yes, makes canset quite unusable :(
09:33<andythenorth>I played 1870-2010 so far
09:33<andythenorth>it's fun
09:34<andythenorth>I had to turn freight weight multiplier down, I was getting killed
09:34<Pikka>ho ho
09:34<V453000>the problem with wagon speed limits is that there is no other way than splitting traffic into separate networks - which sucks
09:34<andythenorth>pikka: do you use a freight multiplier in your games?
09:34<Pikka>yep, usually 5
09:34<andythenorth>I use 6
09:35<V453000>Pikka: actually, UKRS is _far_ more playable without wagon speed limits
09:35<Sacro>what!? I have a 66 sturggling now
09:35<Sacro>it'll never cope with freight multiplyer
09:35<andythenorth>multiplier is 4 in my current game :)
09:35<Sacro>Pikka: we need moar UKRS :D#
09:35<V453000>UKRS actually is the best set without it. With the speed limits, it is just a normal set to me
09:35<Pikka>Sacro: working on something else at the moment I'm afraid
09:35<Sacro>I like wagon limits
09:35<Sacro>Pikka: aww :(
09:36<Sacro>it needs 4th rail trains now
09:36<Pikka>hoping to reveal that in a few weeks, then back to the UKRSes
09:36<Sacro>some nice tube stock
09:36<andythenorth>pikka: the only feedback I have is that after 1998, every freight train gets a shed :P
09:36<Pikka>someone drew a whole load of tube stock for the addon set
09:36<andythenorth>how about that really ugly thing they've introduced this year?
09:36<Pikka>the 70?
09:37<andythenorth>they dropped one in newport docks and broke it
09:37<Pikka>it's a possibility
09:37<andythenorth>I think I miss a class 67 as well
09:37<andythenorth>I dunno
09:37<andythenorth>I mostly get bored by about 2010 anyway
09:37<Pikka>that's pretty much how I feel too about the 67
09:37<Pikka>but it'll be in either the main set or the addon set, one way or another
09:37<andythenorth>playing in the future is a bit weird for me
09:39<andythenorth>the add-ons are parked behind 'the other thing' ?
09:39<Pikka>behind the other thing and behind UKRS2 itself
09:39<andythenorth>I wondered about coding some, but I guess you have your own way of doing things....
09:39<andythenorth>I have enough to do also :P
09:40<@planetmaker>ho ho. Did I hear correctly? Another new surprise set by Pikka ? :-)
09:40*planetmaker waves also 'hello' :-)
09:40<andythenorth>hi planetmaker
09:40<Pikka>I'm trying to force myself to a deadline too! lol
09:40<Pikka>hello also planetmaker
09:40<andythenorth>a very appropriate one
09:40<Pikka>april 1st...
09:40<@planetmaker>ho, deadlines? Don't work yourself to death on those ;-) Would be a shame ;-)
09:40<andythenorth>my baby was supposed to be born on April 1st
09:41<andythenorth>his joke was to arrive on Feb 12th
09:41<andythenorth>pikka: I think I screwed up the sprite positioning on monster box
09:41<andythenorth>there is an epidemic of white lines
09:41<Pikka>I shall look into it
09:41<Pikka>I probably just cut them wrongly
09:42<Pikka>it will not be difficult to fix
09:42<andythenorth>cargo classes remain there usual exciting and bizarre selves
09:43<andythenorth>FIRS fish can travel by polybulk :)
09:43<andythenorth>and so can wool
09:43<andythenorth>I am past trying to perfect those :P
09:43<andythenorth>not only is it (a) hard but (b) players disagree
09:44<andythenorth>I'm leaving it up to set authors and not making any more changes FIRS side without a reason :D
09:44<Pikka>well, let me see what polybulk can carry
09:44<Pikka>28 80 02 29 01 04 1D 40 00 0C 04
09:45<Pikka>80 02 is refrigerated + covered... hmm yes
09:46<Pikka>01 04 is passengers or oversized
09:46<andythenorth>the open / hopper wagons can't carry scrap metal either which is all wrong, but scrap metal has been a painful argument that I'm bored of :P
09:46<Sacro>yeah, would be nice to have 67 70
09:46<Sacro>perhaps 37 and 47s too
09:46<Sacro>and a 390!
09:46<andythenorth>there are 37s and 47s
09:46<Sacro>are there?
09:47<andythenorth>in my game there are :)
09:47<Sacro>well, javelins would be nice
09:47<Pikka>they're planned
09:47<andythenorth>I think it's well balanced without too much stuff
09:47<andythenorth>too much stuff is a headache
09:48<Pikka>that's why the secret set only has 3 locomotives! \o/
09:48<andythenorth>in UKRS 1 did MGR hopper have a hood if refitted to clay?
09:48<Pikka>I think so, I don't remember
09:48<andythenorth>was a nice touch if so
09:48<Sacro>hmm, i'd like some faster passenger stock
09:48<andythenorth>High-Speed Carriage?
09:49<Sacro>well, unlimted speed
09:49<Pikka>faster than 140mph?
09:49<Pikka>oh, you want eurostars
09:49<Pikka>har har
09:49<Pikka>no eurostars for you!
09:49<Sacro>no, 395
09:49<Pikka>395 goes 140
09:50<Sacro>oh, true
09:50<Sacro>yeah, EMU 140
09:50<Sacro>as opposed to EMU 186
09:50<Pikka>and like I said, it's planned for inclusion
09:50<__ln__>what's the channel policy about units? imperial or SI?
09:50<Sacro>hmm, wnoder if they can do 100mph on 3rd rail
09:50<Pikka>and the 91 does 140mph, and it's already in
09:50<Sacro>__ln__: yes, one orw the other
09:50<Pikka>I demand everyone speak in m/s from now on!
09:51<__ln__>Pikka: i demand yards/fortnight
09:52<@planetmaker>hm, no Eurostars? :-(
09:53<andythenorth>pikka: realistic liveries is done nice
09:53<Pikka>I think it works quite well
09:53<@planetmaker>__ln__, and power in electron volts / fortnight
09:53<andythenorth>any comments on the cartic 4? I think it sucks, but mr MacKellar liked it
09:53<Pikka>I thought it looked good so far
09:54<Pikka>the diagonals and the loaded versions will be the test
09:54<andythenorth>I did the diagonals
09:54<Pikka>well, whatever it was I saw it looked good!
09:55*andythenorth ponders something for heavy equipment
09:55<andythenorth>no like?
09:57<Pikka>didn't say that
09:57<Pikka>I actually had a well wagon on the list for UKRS2
09:58<andythenorth>trestrol :D
09:58<Pikka>but I couldn't be arsed drawing it
09:59<@planetmaker>that's a good enough reason :-)
10:07<andythenorth>pikka: I might draw one
10:07<andythenorth>it's probably an easy enough shape
10:07<andythenorth>or a real pain in the arse
10:07<andythenorth>one of those
10:08<andythenorth>I'll probably orient it towards FIRS and draw one with quite a low capacity...
10:08<andythenorth>maybe a lowmac
10:10<andythenorth>a lowmac is just a rectangle with slopey bits
10:13<Pikka>everything is just a rectangle with slopey bits
10:14*andythenorth is just a rectangle with slopey bits
10:14<andythenorth>nfo is just a rectangle with slopery bits
10:14<andythenorth>my invisible sandwich is just a rectangle with slopery bits
10:25<Pikka>but mostly I was talking about TT train vehicles
10:25*andythenorth thinks of other insightful UKRS 2 feedback
10:25<andythenorth>no I don't have any ;)
10:27<andythenorth>it's very hard btw
10:27<andythenorth>at least, with the combination of settings for my current game, it's hard
10:27<andythenorth>which is fun
10:30*andythenorth does ponder
10:30<andythenorth>there is no newgrf town growth
10:30<andythenorth>so how about 'every house is an industry'?
10:30<andythenorth>cargo is only delivered to one industry in catchment
10:31<andythenorth>how about 'neighbourhoods are industries'
10:31<@Yexo>that'd really slow down the game
10:31<andythenorth>residential neighbourhood...
10:31<andythenorth>retail neighbourhood
10:31<@Yexo>a house exists only on the map, there is no extra information
10:31<@Yexo>for industries a separate struct with a lot of extra informatino is stored
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10:33<andythenorth>'money' isn't a good enough reason to ship goods / alcohol / building materials / food
10:33<andythenorth>maybe the industries that receive should also produce something back
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11:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ideally, they would have an effect on town growth
11:27<andythenorth>ideally there would be world peace :P
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's really that ideal
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>peace equals stagnation
11:33<andythenorth>frosch has a TownControl spec
11:33<andythenorth>but spec != code
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>"spec is code by other means" :p
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11:36<@planetmaker>it's the code in which programmers are programmed :-P
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12:01<andythenorth>why RVs sometimes drive right through each other?
12:01<andythenorth>I don't mean at crossings
12:02<andythenorth>I mean when one is stopped / slow
12:02<@peter1138>Quantum effects.
12:03<@peter1138>Specifically... "Road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects)"
12:03<@planetmaker>and the drivers are very impatient
12:04<andythenorth>I always wondered what quantum effects was :P
12:06<andythenorth>it makes sense now I know what the setting means :)
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12:17<@Terkhen>andythenorth: IIRC to avoid deadlocks
12:17<andythenorth>it looks particularly weird with trams
12:18<andythenorth>and trams are also more prone to causing it to happen ;)
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12:22<@Terkhen>I remember that some of my TTD games were "broken" after a deadlock happened
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>deadlocks occured very frequently in TTO, and they took ages to resolve
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>usually when a vehicle was turning around before a station, and another vehicle was exiting the station at the same time
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12:30<@Terkhen>that's what happened, yes
12:31<__ln__>ok, i fail with ^B
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13:09<andythenorth>shames there's no way to reverse-fill a ship route with bouys
13:09<andythenorth>it can be boring to do manually :P
13:10<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the most boring thing is IMHO not building the buoys, but giving the orders. Which is tedious for long(er) routes
13:10<@planetmaker>But without... see my AI Competition game what happens ;-)
13:10<andythenorth>that's what I'm referring to ;)
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13:11<@planetmaker>One AI build ships - but they all got lost, going around in a deserted, lonely bay...
13:11<@planetmaker>never reaching their destination
13:11<andythenorth>a sad story :(
13:11<@planetmaker>yeah. especially for the passengers onboard :-P
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13:49<@Belugas>music music music por favor
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13:56*andythenorth wishes this misleading line had never been put into the TTDP wiki:
13:56<andythenorth>"light comes from the right"
13:59<andythenorth>George: what alternative is better?
13:59<andythenorth>wrt supplies?
14:00<George>you mean
14:01<George>I think stockpiling is better
14:01<George>You can have also unlimeted size in 2 ways
14:02<George>1) the way Food plant and other agricultural industries do - al the cargo above limit is accepted, but nt stored
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>how is that different to how it works now?
14:03<George>2) the way GBCP acts, when there is no limit and you can deliver as mach cargo as you want
14:04<George>In FIRS the PLAYER should PROVIDE every month SUPPLY
14:05<George>In ECS he should only provided required amount of cargo waiting, and the INDUSTRY ITSELF would spend required amount every month
14:06<George>That means if in ECS you would deliver cargo on 29-th january and 2-th march - it is Ok
14:06<Ammler>I would consider one tile routes as cheating
14:07<George>in FIRS you should deliver before 28-feb, otherwise you would have production drop
14:07<andythenorth>why would production drop?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>what's the problem? the example route was just a way for the player to simulate "storage" at his station
14:07<andythenorth>it could, but it's not entirely deterministic
14:07<George>because you do not have cargo delivered last month
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14:08<andythenorth>production drop depends on (a) player has production decrease parameter enabled (b) random chance
14:08*andythenorth dislikes parameters, but this one seemed worthwhile :(
14:08<George>It would drop or have a chance to drop - it does not matter
14:09<George>the problem that 1 day delay can cause a large penalty
14:09<andythenorth>he :)
14:09<George>In TTDs time scale I find it ... lets say not good
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>i think ECS is much more vulnerable to such delivery oddities
14:09<andythenorth>I am not very good at maths....but
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14:10<George>Eddi|zuHause: No
14:10<@Terkhen>if the solution is stockpiling, I can live with that chance :/
14:10<George>Storeplace is relative large
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>i have not played ECS extensively, but i heard from some people complaining that one missed vehicle delivery can cripple your entire economy
14:10<andythenorth>if random varaction 2 has 1F as mask, what is chance?
14:11<@Terkhen>although for supplies stockpiling wouldn't matter that much as you usually deliver small amounts
14:11<George>So, if you are on the top of capacity - you would not definitly get the reduce
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14:11<andythenorth>1F is 3% chance?
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14:11<George>> vehicle delivery can cripple your entire economy :)
14:12<George>It sounds like they never played ECS
14:12<George>But only heard about it
14:12<andythenorth>lets say chance of decrease is 1/64
14:13<andythenorth>or 1/4 if production is high
14:13<andythenorth>and chance of increase is always 1/4
14:13<confound>I find the idea of doing contrived 1-tile supply routes distasteful too, but in my first FIRS game so far I'm also apparently doing ok without it
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14:13<Eddi|zuHause>then it depends on what ranges you check
14:13<andythenorth>so month 1, your vehicle is late. Chance of decrease ~= 1/64
14:13<andythenorth>but at the end of month 2 your cargo arrived. So chance of increase ~= 1/4
14:14<andythenorth>net result. More chance of increase than decrease
14:14<andythenorth>even if late
14:14<George>1F is 12%
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14:15<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're talking about incomplete examples...
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>which makes giving them proper meaning difficult
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14:18<George>andythenorth: Agree with Eddi|zuHause. If you have a change for 1/4 growth during 2 months it is definintly higher than 1/64 decay and 1/4 grow
14:19<George>I mean probabilistic average here
14:20<George>It is higher in the first case than in the second
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14:29<__ln__>sigue nevando en canarias, they say on tve
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14:45<andythenorth>George: yes 1/4, 1/4 should be higher on average
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14:52<andythenorth>putting aside which mechanic is better...
14:52<andythenorth>...why is the default assumption that production increase is good?
14:52<andythenorth>production increase has downsides
14:53<@Alberth>it poses a challenge to the user
14:53<andythenorth>it does indeed
14:54<@Alberth>and it feels like more positive challenge than a decrease would
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15:03<George>andythenorth: > ...why is the default assumption that production increase is good? because it causes more transportation and profit
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15:04<andythenorth>but it also disrupts your chain ;)
15:05<andythenorth>and is a prime cause of station rating falling
15:15<confound>dealing with more production feels fun
15:15<confound>dealing with decreased production feels like you failed somehow
15:16<andythenorth>not dealing with increased production is quite a failure
15:17<andythenorth>station ratings can drop so much you end up with less net cargo
15:19<andythenorth>George: one thing I thought of was to move from 'calendar month' to 'rolling 30 day window'
15:19<andythenorth>that's how FIRS secondary industries work for combining cargos
15:19<andythenorth>it's fairer on the player
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i agree with that
15:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the 30 days?
15:35<andythenorth>the only reasons it's not done are (a) I just thought of it (b) it's inconsistent with town behaviour
15:35<andythenorth>but maybe town behaviour is wrong...
15:47<confound>UKRS 2 says: The Livestock Van (along with the Covered Carriage Truck, the other vehicle which can carry livestock) expires in 1980. Realistically, all livestock should be transported by road from the 1970s onward.
15:47<confound>I didn't know that. is it just in the UK or US too?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know US, but this is happening all over europe
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>no idea. it makes for silly gameplay restrictions...
15:48<confound>I'm not a big train geek, I just like openttd. so I don't know these things :)
15:50<andythenorth>irl, far as I remember it's a combination of stricter regulations, and more abbatoirs closer to farms
15:51<confound>did the latter happen because of the former?
15:51<andythenorth>not sure
15:52<andythenorth>there's some stuff on wikipedia about it if you dig around
15:52<confound>seems reasonable,a nyway
15:52<andythenorth>depends on the country, but stuff like animals can only be transported so many hours
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not buying the "closer" argument... theree have been reports about livestock being transported through europe back and forth
15:52<andythenorth>and have to be transported with people attending them
15:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I think 'closer' applies on the us scale
15:52<andythenorth>e.g. not shipping all the cows to chicago
15:53<andythenorth>I looked into it for FIRS, but I'm not so good at retaining facts
15:55<andythenorth>this might be the most useful:
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16:06<Nite>... how is comunication with the russian ottd nerds?
16:07<Nite>i like the Russian trains and tram set (rtts) much, any chance to get it on bananas
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16:21<@Alberth>did somebody already fire the international airport designer?
16:21<@Alberth>erecting a large communication tower right next to the runway
16:22<@peter1138>Is that one of RichK's?
16:23<@peter1138>If not, I think it's Darkvater's...
16:23<andythenorth>sounds like a case for...
16:23<Rubidium>it ain't DV's
16:25<@Alberth>it's both in the original graphics base set and in the opengfx one
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16:31<@Belugas>nice fellow, again :)
16:31<@Belugas>man, was he proud of that stuff!
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16:34<@peter1138>Well graphics set isn't anything to do with layouts ;)
16:36<@peter1138>Rubidium, why do you say it's not DVs?
16:36<@peter1138>DV's :)
16:36<@peter1138>OpenTTD 0.3.3
16:36<@peter1138># Feature: darkvater's two new airports (metropolitan in 1980 and international in 1990)
16:39<@Belugas>oh fuck... here goes the memory
16:39<George>andythenorth: Did you get the answer to your question (what alternative is better?)
16:39<andythenorth>not yet ;)
16:40<frosch123>luckily i have no idea which airport name relates to which layout :p
16:40<George>What is unclean yet?
16:40<andythenorth>George: multiple aspects
16:41<andythenorth>well I'm not clear what problem is being solved initially
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16:59<@Belugas>well... time for me as well
16:59<@Belugas>night all
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17:08<Rubidium>peter1138: really? Can't remember that; thought DV only added the metropolitan
17:13<@peter1138>Don't think you were here then ;)
17:13<@peter1138>I can't say for sure, because I wasn't...
17:13<__ln__>when was that?
17:14<__ln__>that's not a date
17:14<@peter1138>You can look it up.
17:14<Rubidium>point is that I don't remember the international, until after RichK
17:15<__ln__>fine. it seemed to be in July 2004.
17:16<__ln__>i was here back then...
17:16<@peter1138>win 23
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17:21*SmatZ got a little suspicion that __ln__ is in fact disguised ludde
17:22<frosch123>i doubt someone was here at 0.3.3. sounds more like freenode
17:23<frosch123>and of course ottd release numbers are valid dates
17:23<__ln__>it's the same "here"
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17:28<@SmatZ>we have a lottery company that went into bankrupt recently
17:28<@SmatZ>and someone won ~5mil Eur
17:28<@SmatZ>there is little chance he will get his money
17:28<frosch123>how can a lottery bankrupt?
17:28<@SmatZ>"yay, I won incredible amount of money" ... two months later "... NOOOOOOOO ... "
17:30<@SmatZ>frosch123: its about how lotteries have to donate sport... they built an arena (hockey, konzerts, ...) for ~1000mil Eur
17:30<@SmatZ>and they no longer have money to pay the debts
17:31<frosch123>what's the czech word behind "konzert"? :o
17:31<@SmatZ>frosch123: music ... being played there ... singer singing ...
17:32<@SmatZ>"concert" :)
17:33<frosch123>well, yes, same word in german :) so i got confused why you would put a german word with english plural form in there :)
17:33<Vikthor>frosch123: In czech it's "koncert" though, probably from Italian
17:33<@SmatZ>hello Vikthor :)
17:34<__ln__>well that wasn't czech but middle earth
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17:34<@SmatZ>Czech Republic is in the middle of Europe :)
17:35<Vikthor>Actually that is mordor or black speech
17:35<__ln__>and i still haven't been there even once
17:36<frosch123>hmm, i am still wondering whether you misspelled the english concert, the czech koncert, or used the german konert :)
17:36<frosch123>*konzert :s
17:36<@SmatZ>frosch123: I expected you will understand "konzert" :)
17:36<@SmatZ>because "concert" looks weird
17:36<@SmatZ>but indeed, it's correct
17:37<frosch123>ok :)
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 16 00:00:32 2011