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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-03-16

---Logopened Wed Mar 16 00:00:32 2011
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04:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:19<@planetmaker>good morning everyone
05:20<pikka>must be some somewhere, ln
05:21<@planetmaker>ha, someone must still believe in the good :-)
05:23<pikka>the birds in thi
05:23<pikka>that tree
05:23<pikka>are noisy
05:23<pikka>but not noisome
05:26<pikka>good morning planetmaker
05:26<@planetmaker>and when you park your car beneath their sleeping tree... you don't want to look at it later :-P
05:27<@planetmaker>I tried it out yesterday during sports :-(
05:28<@planetmaker>now I know why the parking space was empty there :-P
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05:32<pikka>this bench is uncomfortable
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05:33*planetmaker suggests to use another one then :-)
05:34<pikka>they all appear to be the same!
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05:34<@planetmaker>drat. Upgrade to bench 2.0 then ;-)
05:36<pikka>I could go in the mealroom but its too cold
05:36<pikka>or I could sit in the bus, but its dark
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06:09<dihedral>we host a website named "" ....
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06:11<@SmatZ>dihedral: why does it have wind power plants at its main page?
06:12<dihedral>hehehe :-D
06:12<dihedral>none of my concern :-P
06:12<dihedral>but the 70-90 Mbit/s coming from a bot net is
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06:13<@SmatZ>well, that page seems to load fine
06:15<dihedral>the cpu load is 300 MHz according to esx
06:15<@peter1138>That's an odd measure for load...
06:15<@SmatZ>it takes currect CPU MHz and multiplies it by load?
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06:30<pikka>hello andy
06:30<pikka>et al
06:30<pikka>et Pedro1138
06:30<pikka>and du
06:32<pikka>what are the haps chaps?
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06:46*andythenorth is removing lego from the baby's mouth
06:46<andythenorth>says 3-6 years on the box
06:46<andythenorth>he's 12 months
06:46<andythenorth>'ll be fine :P
06:47<andythenorth>turns out he can't swallow if you hold him upside down
06:47<andythenorth>so far anyway
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06:52<@planetmaker>he :S
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06:55<andythenorth>is roadtypes done yet?
06:55*andythenorth checks own progress
06:55*andythenorth got stuck at second hurdle
06:55<andythenorth>save game safety after moving some map bits
06:56*andythenorth can not haz leet coder
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07:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for moving map bits, take e.g. saveload/afterload.cpp:1180-1185 as example
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or ll. 1310-1336
07:39<andythenorth> thanks
07:39<andythenorth>my brain is somewhere else right now
07:39<andythenorth>but it would be nice to make some progress on roadtypes :)
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07:45<andythenorth>success is more likely from someone who can actually code though :P
07:46<andythenorth>I would happily bash on the drawing functions, I understand those so far
07:46<andythenorth>but without any bits set, I can't write much drawing code :D
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07:50<@Terkhen>heh, a turing test for OpenTTD AIs
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, if give me a table of what bits you want moved (like in docs/landscape.html), i could try it
07:52<pikka>mmm woadtypes
07:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: "e.g. move the road works counter to m4 and use m7 bits 4..0 for the 2nd road owner"
07:53<pikka>2nd owner...
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes
07:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^ was the suggestion I was given ;)
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>pikka: "owner of second road type"
07:54<pikka>for overlayable roads like trans, I see
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>pikka: a road tile currently can have 3 owners. road, tram and station [or rail]
07:57<pikka>right, I see
07:57*pikka back to driving
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>while we are here: why has road/rail owner been switched for level crossings, and why has it not been un-switched?
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08:27<pikka>speed limits in roadtypes may be interesting...
08:28<pikka>the only way to do it 'realistically' may be with a cb36 on the vehicle
08:28<pikka>or with some kind of speed limit table for the roadtype
08:29<andythenorth>changing vehicle performance by roadtype would also be interesting....
08:29<andythenorth>what's the best way to represent reduced traction?
08:30<andythenorth>lower TE?
08:30<pikka>I guess so
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08:30*pikka drives again
08:47<Chris_Booth>pikka you have seen the GFR error with FIRS and the monster Box wagon in UKRS2?
08:55<pikka>the white lines? sure, just sprite cutting errors, no big deal
08:56<pikka>ill fix them for the next version
08:57*planetmaker wonders whether pikka hasn't grfcodec show the white pixel warnings
08:57*andythenorth has a question
08:57<andythenorth>can I ask? :P
08:58*planetmaker wonders whether andythenorth can now even ask a 2nd question :-P
08:58<andythenorth>I keep seeing the request to disable sets of vehicles in grfs
08:58<andythenorth>can't the game provide that
08:58<andythenorth>add an action 0 label property to vehicles
08:58<andythenorth>similar to stations
08:58<@planetmaker>that depends on the definition of "sets of vehicles"
08:58<andythenorth>station tiles have a class
08:59<andythenorth>or a GUI to turn on / off individual vehicles in a grf?
08:59<@planetmaker>yes, but vehicles have their 'type'. Introducing a separate class might be feasible
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>what's the use of that?
08:59<@planetmaker>And the GUI is the parameter settings
09:00<@planetmaker>just a boolean parameter for each 'class'
09:00<@planetmaker>I'd not see how that'd work differently, though, if vehicles had a class property
09:01<andythenorth>someone writes in once in game, saves newgrf authors endlessly writing their own version?
09:01<@planetmaker>but that only would allow to disable all trams (or whatever)
09:01<@planetmaker>in all newgrfs
09:01<@planetmaker>or it's a thing newgrfs would have to provide anyway
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so. conceptual problem: moving owner2 to m7 is fine for normal road, but level crossings store owner1 there.
09:02<@planetmaker>and if you allow classes to be newgrf-defined... you cannot add general switches to OpenTTD. You cannot opt to only use cargos a,c,d and f; but not b and e
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>could move owner1 to m1 where it belongs, but then the rail owner must be stored somewhere else
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09:14<andythenorth>planetmaker: this would be on a per-newgrf basis
09:14<andythenorth>it would probably need new storage :P
09:14<@planetmaker>uhm, why?
09:14<andythenorth>because players want to disable / enable specific vehicles in specific newgrfs
09:15<@planetmaker>I think you need to explain more how those classes are supposed to work
09:15<@planetmaker>things like station classes, cargo labels, railtype labels - they can be defined to every newgrf author's liking
09:15<@planetmaker>OpenTTD cannot provide means to disable a specific one.
09:16<andythenorth>so...'classes' in this case are local to each grf
09:16<andythenorth>they are defined in action 0 for each vehicle
09:16<andythenorth>it's a string
09:16<andythenorth>openttd reads all the action 0s, looking for classes
09:16<andythenorth>it appends them to a list
09:16<@planetmaker>Then it's easy for a grf to provide an action9 to skip the vehicle when parameter a is set
09:16<@planetmaker>it's one line per vehicle
09:16<andythenorth>yes I know :)
09:17<@planetmaker>and cannot fail then
09:17<andythenorth>well not all requests are valid I guess :P
09:17<andythenorth>maybe this one fails the filter
09:17<@planetmaker>really, you're proposal sounds you want to replace one line in your newgrfs by another line. Only to reach the very same thing
09:17<andythenorth>it's not one line
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09:17<@planetmaker>it is.
09:17<andythenorth>it's a bunch of action 14 as well
09:18<@planetmaker>-1 * 0 07 <some parameter value> <skip next n sprites = action0 of vehicle>
09:18<@planetmaker>and a parameter for each vehicle class. Yes. But you'd need to define those "labels" somewhere, too
09:19<andythenorth>changing this parameter in a running game would be...bad
09:19<@planetmaker>you can as well do that in one action14 thing. Which is quite easy to do, too
09:19<@planetmaker>changing vehicle availability, too
09:19<@planetmaker>so it would be a pre-start option anyway
09:19<andythenorth>you're correct, but not 100% convincing ;)
09:19<andythenorth>I'll do it your way for HEQS
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i predict the sum of all action14s that all newgrf authors combined will write won't make up for the code this needs
09:20<andythenorth>it's quite a complicated new bit of GUI
09:20<@planetmaker>^ my feeling ;-) And even if: the newgrf approach is much more flexible.
09:20<andythenorth>is there a third option somehow?
09:20<@planetmaker>andythenorth, complicated?
09:20<@planetmaker>how so?
09:20<andythenorth>option A is do it in newgrf - fine, I'll do it that way
09:20<andythenorth>option B is try to provide it in openttd - BAD
09:20<andythenorth>I wondered if we missed any alternatives?
09:20<andythenorth>I can't think of one
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09:22<andythenorth>planetmaker: complicated - this would have to be added to newgrf window somewhere
09:22<andythenorth>and a modal dialogue provided
09:22<andythenorth>and someone has to think about save / cancel
09:23<andythenorth>I think this idea died
09:26*andythenorth to work
09:26<andythenorth>back later
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11:07<dihedral>who would be so stupid to run a wget loop from hetzner?
11:08<@SmatZ>me too
11:08<Ammler>no, me want
11:09<Ammler>he, and good day guys
11:09<V453000>beer to the swiss!
11:10<V453000>(== good day)
11:10<V453000>oh wait you drink milk, right? :D
11:10<@SmatZ>hello Ammler
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11:12<Ammler>right now, apple must (or how that is called) :-)
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11:18<Eddi|zuHause>might be iMust now ;)
11:20<dihedral>someone got an idea how i can sum up numbers? each number on a separate line... - shell please :-P
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>awk 'BEGIN {$sum = 0} {$sum+=$1} END { print $sum }' or something
11:22<dihedral>i think i managed with for and expr
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you can figure out the details ;)
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11:39<V453000>Ammler: applesaft at least imitates beer by the colour :P
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13:35<avdg>yay, new generation of life
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>(ever since medieval times, a black eagle on golden shield was the symbol of germany)
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 16 14:43:30 2011
---Logopened Wed Mar 16 14:43:44 2011
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14:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: translators * r22255 /trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt:
14:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-10>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 16 changes by Madvin
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15:40<andythenorth>the 'build random secondary industry' suggestion isn't a bad one
15:41<andythenorth>although it further complexifies industry code + advanced settings window
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>nah, just the found industry window
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'd do it, if i hadn't sworn to stay the hell away from GUI code :p
15:45<frosch123>from when is that vow?
15:46<frosch123>anyway, towns should randomly appear if gold mines open :p
15:46<Rubidium>and randomly disappear when nuclear plants "disappear"?
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15:47<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: from when i last touched gui code. i think it was the ITiM patch
15:48<frosch123>hmm, ITiM... Improved Timetables Marshmallow ?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>something like that ;)
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16:03<krinn>is the ai save timing/trigger configurable?
16:05<@Yexo>which ai save timing?
16:05<@Yexo>the amount of time the Ai has for saving?
16:06<krinn>doc says save function is trigger when user hit save button
16:06<krinn>but in fact, the save function is trigger after some time or an event i don't know
16:06<krinn>but always even if the user never use the save button
16:06<@Yexo>the AI save function is called exactly at the time when the game is saved
16:06<@Yexo>maybe you have enabled autosave?
16:06<krinn>ah yes, might be that !
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16:07<krinn>autosave have options?
16:08<krinn><Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving? <--- there's one ?
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16:09<krinn>found the autosave options, was set to each month :)
16:10<@Yexo><krinn> <Yexo> the amount of time the Ai has for saving? <--- there's one ? <- no, there is no such option
16:10<krinn>thank you Yexo, must say i'm impress by your game knowledge
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16:32<confound>hm. how do I convince my trucks not to pile up behind a single drive-through bay when the station has like 10 of them available? sometimes they're smart about it and sometimes not so much.
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16:33<krinn>human way? fast i found is send the group for servicing
16:33*confound is sad
16:33<confound>maybe I actually wanted to turn off road vehicle queueing
16:34<krinn>and they don't really queue for just 1, but the 2-3 first vehicle are queuing for it
16:34<krinn>and they block others that are going to others entries
16:35<krinn>if you have patience for that, you can service the one that is waiting in front of the bay and reverse it, this will generally unblock the situation
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16:36<confound>I know
16:36<confound>I want it to not happen to begin with, though.
16:37<krinn>well, 2 road size and bay 1 and bay 2 in front : 1 for each side, you will lower risk 1 vehicle block access to the other bay
16:39<frosch123>1. make sure the station is part of the orders (explicitly ordered, not via non-non-stop). 2. make sure the driving distances to the bays are not too different. 3. make the vehicle decide late where to go. 4. make the vehicles not arrive all at once
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16:40<confound>yeah it's the driving distance thing
16:40<confound>well, 2 and 3
16:41<confound>by 'decide late' you mean give plenty of crossing roads so they can change direction, right?
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16:41<Eddi|zuHause>"was gibt es besseres als eine heiße dusche und danach ein kühles blondes?"
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>"eine heiße blonde und danach eine kühle dusche!"
16:42<krinn>you can use waypoin to force them decide, but a bit of pain to handle truck by waypoint
16:42<krinn>like truck1->wp1->station, truck2->wp2->stationbay2...
16:42<confound>yeah that's horrible :)
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16:43<confound>I have about 300 trucks at this station
16:43<krinn>imo a 10 truck bay must be horrible too
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>use trains.
16:43<krinn>it's more a human choice Eddi|zuHause i think he knows trains can do the work ;)
16:43<confound>it's ukrs2 and the only livestock car is terrible
16:44<confound>plus I want to be able to design efficient truck stations too
16:44<krinn>confound, you can't really do that, as the auto taking bay is a bit weak
16:45<confound>what frosch123 helped a lot
16:45<confound>er, what frosch123 said
16:45<krinn>it's like "truck arrive near-> truck see empty bay-> going there", but when truck2 arrive, the bay is still empty for it too, even truck1 is going to it
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>there's not much to design, one-way roads are limited and the bay-assigning-algorithm can't properly predict the near future...
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have "signals" to help you guiding the traffic
16:47<confound>my station was also overcrowded after upgrading to new trucks so selling a third of them helped too
16:47<krinn>you can use the road one way as Eddi|zuHause suggest to limit "truck dropper" and "truck getter" sharing the same bay, even they share same station
16:47<confound>yeah, good point
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>the closest i ever got to "designing" a road station was this:
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16:55<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, how Westerbrjicken Gbf Kohle could be in range ? looks pretty far from the industry
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: it's not. it's a transfer station, train brings coal, trucks deliver coal to the plant
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>the label denotes a "waypoint", the actual station is the following one, attached to the train station
16:56<krinn>ah ok, insane but nice :)
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16:57<Eddi|zuHause>three industries are serviced this way. a food processing plant (livestock, grain), a saw mill (wood in, processed wood out) and a power station (coal)
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>the "waypoints" are set so that trucks of different cargo don't interfere with each other
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17:00<krinn>dunno how people could live in that town with such a traffic at their windows :)
17:01<frosch123>they are all employed to carry the coal from the truck station across the road to the power plant
17:02<krinn>eheh like in real life, after reaching a certain point, you can do what you wish
17:02<krinn>should rename it to detroy :)
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17:39<LordAro>moin all
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17:59<Markk>Moin moin
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18:26<@Terkhen>good night
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19:37<confound>it seems like the catchment area for nonuniform stations doesn't act like I expect
19:38<confound>does it take the farthest-spread parts of the station, draw a rectangle between them, and extend the catchment area from that rectangle?
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19:39<confound>looks like yes
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19:52<Eddi|zuHause>for delivering cargo to industries, the smallest rectangle around the station is relevant, for picking up cargo from the industry, the smallest rectangle around the industry is relevant
19:53<@SmatZ>yup :)
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>this rectangle is extended by the catchment radius of the station
19:53<@SmatZ>I was searching for a wiki article, but then I forgot...
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20:22<Eddi|zuHause>small random idea: is there a GRF that has a "shunting yard" railtype? i.e. one that has a concrete track base blending in with ISR stations, for junctions etc.?
20:24<@Yexo>doesn't ISR have that kind of tiles?
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20:24<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: it has fake switches and stuff. but i meant non-station rail. real switches, signals...
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>something that blends in with the station, but isn't a station
20:32<confound>Eddi|zuHause: so it's possible to accidentally have a station that can deliver but not pick up cargo?
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>confound: yes.
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20:38<supermop>i could try to make such a thing
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 17 00:00:35 2011