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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-05

---Logopened Tue Apr 05 00:00:12 2011
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01:57<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:17<@planetmaker>moin
02:20-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
02:20-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association @#openttdcoop.dev #wwottdgd #openttd @#tycoon.de @#openttdcoop
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02:59<Eddi|zuHause>why are waypoints so crazily expensive?
03:00<Eddi|zuHause>about factor 8 more than a station tile?
03:03<Eddi|zuHause>more like factor 10
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04:16<dihedral>good morning :-)
04:18<dihedral>well done for the 1.1.0 release :-)
04:21<@planetmaker>heya dihedral :-)
04:22<dihedral>you once are not around for a few days, and partially inactive and boom - new stable!
04:22<dihedral>:-D
04:22<@planetmaker>btw, can I ask you to add some howto to your berries?
04:22<dihedral>yes you can
04:22<@planetmaker>I toyed with it the other day, but I didn't get far with the current bundle. Only the very old one did work somewhat
04:22<dihedral>and i've not forgotten them ;-)
04:22<dihedral>and am working on the new irc one ^^
04:23<@planetmaker>I mostly mean wrt howto setup the stuff ;-)
04:23<dihedral>aye ^^
04:23<@planetmaker>It was a complete failure, but I'm sure it's just me totally not knowing how to setup things.
04:23<dihedral>i bet so too :-D
04:24<@planetmaker>probably wrong or missing config, but I don't know :-)
04:24<dihedral>i believe at least one of the plugins is broken though
04:24<dihedral>so that would not surprise me
04:24<dihedral>config is written if the file is empty
04:24<dihedral>start off with no plugins at all ^^ :-D
04:25<@planetmaker>I took the vanilla package from the project's hudson page
04:26<dihedral>really?
04:26<dihedral>with what result?
04:27<@planetmaker>well, with the result that I got some java crash / backtrace
04:28<@planetmaker>I surely can re-create that, but I don't have it here
04:28<dihedral>null pointer? :-P
04:28<@planetmaker>but berries really comes with zero readme... :-)
04:29<@planetmaker>but basically twice a license :-P
04:29<dihedral>:-D
04:29<dihedral>yes
04:30<dihedral>interesting
04:35<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/148/ <-- like that
04:36<dihedral>you need to use the 'bundle' ;-)
04:36<dihedral>http://hudson.dihedral.de/job/Grapes/
04:37<dihedral>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grapes/wiki/Run
04:37<dihedral>:-D
04:37<@planetmaker>ha, that might be one reason ;-)
04:37<dihedral>:-P
04:38<dihedral>the other build is without any dependencies included
04:38<@planetmaker>but how should I know? ;-)
04:38<dihedral>the wiki tells you so
04:38<dihedral>:-P
04:38<dihedral>HEHE
04:38<@planetmaker>not that I saw that
04:39<dihedral>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grapes/wiki <- click "RunningGrapes"
04:39<dihedral>hihi
04:40-!-krinn [~krinn@98.227.101-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd
04:40<@planetmaker>oh, for heaven's sake, those are links?
04:40<krinn>hi
04:40<@planetmaker>You should not configure them to be mistaken as head lines
04:40<krinn>i'm in trouble with bananas, anyone could help ?
04:40<dihedral>planetmaker, it's redmine :-D
04:40<dihedral>krinn, feel free to simply ask what is on your heart :-D
04:41<krinn>second file i have upload i edit the first upload and add the new file in it, but it keep version as the previous one
04:41<krinn>and now trying to upload a new one i then try create another upload, but this time it fail and complain with an error about the application itself
04:41<@planetmaker>the latter is not quite descriptive
04:41<krinn>i know, will retry to get the real error
04:42<@planetmaker>without you cannot be helped anyway, I'm sure. But I fear it'll either need Rubidium or TrueBrain to look into it.
04:42<@planetmaker>Only they have DB access
04:42<@planetmaker>neither might be around much currently
04:43<@peter1138>Shame none of the other devs has any knowledge in system/db administration...
04:44<krinn>ok i got an Unhandled Exception
04:44<krinn>i knew it wasn't really descriptive :)
04:45<krinn>An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
04:45<@planetmaker>well... does it say more?
04:45<krinn>doesn't help more for me
04:45<krinn>planetmaker, yes last one i have just put
04:46<@planetmaker>ok, that's all the browser gives you, no single letter more? Hm, right...
04:46<@planetmaker>what item do you try to update?
04:46<krinn>no
04:46<krinn>my ai
04:46<@planetmaker>hu?
04:46<krinn>gnu tar file
04:46<@planetmaker>damn. Please just paste everything you get at one of the usual paste bins. Makes things so much easier than guessing which comes where in which order
04:47<krinn>i get 2 things
04:47<krinn>big letters : Unhandled Exception
04:47<krinn>and small letters: An unhandled exception was thrown by the application.
04:47<TrueBrain>planetmaker: he gets a nice black on white page; it is a real pretty :D
04:48<dihedral>python - it'll be noted in the error log file on the server
04:48<@planetmaker>he, there he is :-) Moin TrueBrain
04:48<dihedral>hello TrueBrain :-)
04:48<krinn>TrueBrain, true :)
04:48<TrueBrain>dihedral: I always love how people make assumptions on installation :D No, those are not logged, sorry :)
04:49<TrueBrain>krinn: http://bugs.openttd.org/ <- upload your tarball there, with a description that it fails, and which AI, which username, the usual (NO PASSWORDS :p)
04:49<dihedral>TrueBrain, ouch :-D
04:49<dihedral>why not?
04:49<TrueBrain>dihedral: as the log will be GBs big
04:49<dihedral>you get that many unhandled exceptions?
04:49<TrueBrain>dihedral: and I dunno ... django doesn't do it by default :p
04:49<krinn>doing that TrueBrain
04:50<krinn>category, ok for AI ?
04:50<TrueBrain>catergory 'website'
04:50<TrueBrain>or project
04:50<TrueBrain>what-ever :p
04:51<@planetmaker>project "website"
04:51<@planetmaker>not the (usual) OpenTTD which is default
04:51<krinn>Interface ?
04:51<@planetmaker>upper left of the bug tracker. Usually quite invisible ;-)
04:51<@planetmaker>very upper left
04:51<@planetmaker>(it's thus another bug tracker)
04:51<krinn>oh my, really invisible :)
04:51<TrueBrain>but it doesn't really matter tbfh :p Someone moves you otherwise :p
04:52<heffer>is it a good idea to use GCC's LTO support in the fedora package of OpenTTD?
04:53<TrueBrain>either way, for planetmaker: BaNaNaS in general is broken, and I have asked so many times now for someone to rewrite it :p If users do something we have no added as exception yet, it simply fails
04:53<TrueBrain>which sadly enough, happens often :p
04:53<@planetmaker>heffer, afaik it doesn't hurt. But whether good or bad...?
04:53<TrueBrain>when they get an unhandled exception, all they can do is post on the bugtracker, and I might find the time to look into it, or Rubidium might :p
04:53<heffer>i think I'll just try
04:53<@planetmaker>well, yes, I know, TrueBrain ;-)
04:54<TrueBrain>just making sure you know :)
04:54<@planetmaker>That's what I tried to get to. And get you here so that - if you had time - could fix it for him straight away
04:54<TrueBrain>right, I am off to consume some knowledge ... or fail horribly in it; will check what happened with your package later today krinn :)
04:55<TrueBrain>planetmaker: good :D
04:56<krinn>TrueBrain, found the error while copying datas on it
04:56<krinn>last tag was end with /
04:56<krinn>(mistake)
04:56<TrueBrain>:D
04:56<krinn>now i get a more good error (file already exists)
04:57<krinn>There is already a package with the unique id '52544344'. and this one also
04:57<TrueBrain>its so sad BaNaNaS doesn't handle such simple mistake gracefully :(
04:57<TrueBrain>with that, planetmaker can help you juse fine :D :D :D
04:57*TrueBrain hugs planetmaker
04:58*dihedral wants a hug too
04:58<TrueBrain>did you shower?
04:58<dihedral>of course
04:58<TrueBrain>meh
04:58*TrueBrain hugs dihedral ... sort of
04:58<dihedral>pffft
04:58<dihedral>GIMME DAT HUG
04:58<dihedral>:-D
04:59<TrueBrain>planetmaker has it now
04:59<TrueBrain>pfff
04:59*planetmaker hugs TrueBrain
04:59<@planetmaker>:-)
05:00<TrueBrain>tnx krinn for still reported :) Will see if I can fix it easily :)
05:00*TrueBrain hugs dihedral
05:00<TrueBrain>see, now we can pass it along :p
05:00<TrueBrain>right, professor is looking angry; bye guys :)
05:00<krinn>you're welcome, and thanks for the support
05:00<@planetmaker>hehe
05:01<krinn>planetmaker, how can i solve the file is already there ?
05:01<@planetmaker>krinn, generally you can never modify existing entries, only upload new(er) versions for them
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05:01<@planetmaker>thus release a new, bug-fixed version for your AI, thus update the internal version and update your existing entry
05:02<krinn>yes but the file might be in database, but not the entry :p
05:02<@planetmaker>I don't understand
05:02<krinn> A file with this name already exists
05:03<krinn>but when i hit manager: i only see the previous upload (v094)
05:03<@planetmaker>also after refresh?
05:03<krinn>yep
05:04<krinn>a bit like a : when error occurs, bananas still get the file
05:04<dihedral>\o/
05:04<krinn>now error is corrected (remove the last / in tags) but when valid bananas complain file exist
05:05<krinn>can even gave your its id, as bananas report it : 52544344
05:06<heffer>ah planetmaker btw: can we get a tar.xz tarball of opengfx by next release it's 1,1MB smaller than the tar.gz one for 0.3.3
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05:06<heffer>like additionally to the existing tar.gz tarballs
05:07<@planetmaker>You mean for OpenGFX?
05:07<dihedral>^^
05:07<heffer>right
05:07<heffer>i thought that was what i said :D
05:08<Ammler>heffer: there are still some distros around not able to unpack .xz ;-)
05:08<heffer>yes. that's why i suggested having them side by side with the tar.gz ones
05:08<heffer>like openttd does
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05:09<heffer>because in Fedora's case, all versions that aren't EOL can unpack tar.xz
05:09<Ammler>hmm, doesn't the openttd mirror offer those?
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05:09<Ammler>no, it doesn't
05:09<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/146693 <-- it looks like that, there you try to update your AI, krinn ?
05:10<krinn>not at all
05:10<Ammler>heffer: I had to learn first, that source rpms aren't compressed
05:11<krinn>looking like that, but for me i have scroller... active, as i can type in them
05:11<krinn>your pic looks like an already made upload
05:11<@planetmaker>isn't your AI already on bananans?
05:11<krinn>i get that if i try to edit the 094 version
05:11<krinn>yes
05:11<krinn>i should edit the 094 ?
05:11<@planetmaker>yes. And that screen I posted is where you upload a new version. Enter the new version, select the zip to replace stuff,...
05:12<@planetmaker>no, not edit. Update
05:12<krinn>oh
05:12<krinn>trying
05:13<krinn>works!
05:13<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/146694
05:13<@planetmaker>ok
05:13<krinn>confirm, openttd see the 097 now
05:13<krinn>thank you planetmaker
05:13<@planetmaker>welcome :-)
05:14<@planetmaker>sweet that it works for you now, too
05:14<krinn>dunno how i've done it, but the 094 tags were also having the / at end
05:14<@planetmaker>differently probably ;-)
05:15<krinn>yep, upload, then add the / by mistake and it remain like that until i hit the bug with 097
05:15<@planetmaker>:-)
05:18<Ammler>heffer: I create a feature request for .xz, it might depend on Debian, if we switch to .xz or need to provide both, suse can handle it down to oldest distro as it supports recompression by the build system
05:18<krinn>what program use xz ?
05:18<@planetmaker>openttd
05:19<@planetmaker>:-P
05:19<krinn>found it, lzma utils
05:19<@planetmaker>it saves about 20% of savegame size compared to the previous method (zip?)
05:19<@planetmaker>on same running speed that is
05:20<krinn>there's a swith when compiling openttd to use it ?
05:22<@planetmaker>it's on by default. But yes, there is
05:22<@planetmaker>./configure --help will tell you, I don't know by heart
05:22<@planetmaker>probably --without-lzma or alike
05:22<krinn>ok will have a look
05:23<@planetmaker>ha, Ammler was faster with creating the feature request for the newgrf makefile framework ;-)
05:23<@planetmaker>krinn, openttd has an aweful lot of compile-time switches ;-)
05:23<@planetmaker>you can also compile it without AI support at all :-P
05:24<krinn>:P yeah i saw one time, scary
05:24<@planetmaker>at least as scary is missing png support. libicu ... is better included, too
05:26<krinn>it build with icc ?
05:26<heffer>okay. thanks for handling this :D
05:26<krinn>if anyone tried yet
05:28<@planetmaker>it's supported
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05:38<Wolf01>hello
05:38<krinn>hi
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06:22<zgrillo2004>anyone here
06:24<@Terkhen>@get -3
06:24<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
06:25<zgrillo2004>hey
06:25<zgrillo2004>I have a question
06:26<zgrillo2004>on existing scenaros why cant I add newgrfs
06:26<zgrillo2004>I used to do this with 1.0.5
06:26<zgrillo2004>even going to the scenario editor still locks me out of adding grfs
06:26<@Terkhen>do a search on the forums, this has been discussed extensively already
06:27<zgrillo2004>Im sorry. there are too many topics to seRCH FOR THIS MYSELF
06:27<zgrillo2004>IF YOU HAPPEN TO KNOW THE EXACT TOPIC NAME THEN i WILL LOOK AT IT
06:27<zgrillo2004>caps
06:28<@Terkhen>they are quite easy to find, use the search button
06:29<zgrillo2004>yea
06:29<zgrillo2004>im look at some of them but it is not what im looking for as the topics are dated
06:30<zgrillo2004>I am seeing some that were made in 2010
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06:59<Hirundo>The issue has been discussed in 2010 also
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07:00<@planetmaker>and answered elaborately just yesterday
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07:05<zgrillo2004>I got ti now
07:05<zgrillo2004>thanks
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08:18<krinn>does openttd still need the original gfx/sfx from tt with opengfx/sfx?
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08:19<@SmatZ>nope
08:20<krinn>maybe add a basic bananas text control so, i've just download 1.1 and it complain about the files
08:21<krinn>logic, i forget to grab opengfx/sfx
08:21<krinn>a bit disapointing knowing bananas can provide them direclty in the game
08:21<@SmatZ>you can't run the game without opengfx/orignalgfx
08:21<@SmatZ>but you can download opengfx online
08:22<@SmatZ>For OpenTTD you can use the original Transport Tycoon Deluxe data files (you need to own a Transport Tycoon Deluxe CD). There are also the free alternatives: OpenGFX (graphics), OpenSFX (sound) and OpenMSX (music). These can be installed automatically by the Windows and OS/2 installers. Please refer to the readme for more information.
08:22<@SmatZ>at http://www.openttd.org/download-stable
08:22<@SmatZ>this should be enough
08:22<@SmatZ>You can download the free alternatives here: download OpenGFX, download OpenSFX and download OpenMSX.
08:22<@SmatZ>and it's mentioned even once more
08:22<krinn>yep, but i use the linux version
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08:23<@SmatZ>README.txt
08:23<krinn>it's not i don't have them, just surprise it's not package with it
08:23<@SmatZ>if you need it, just download it
08:23<@SmatZ>the page says where to download
08:24<@SmatZ>if you use your distro's distribution system, complain at your distro's support page
08:24<@SmatZ>in gentoo, it works fine :)
08:24<krinn>yep, but they forget to bump it
08:25<krinn>and i was only wishing to try 1.1 like that
08:25<krinn>and forget to grab the openm/sfx files :)
08:26<krinn>how you know i use gentoo you dirty fbi boy :p
08:27<@SmatZ>hehe :)
08:28<Chris_Booth>SmatZ: spies on everyone
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08:29*krinn wonder if he should put some clothes on
08:29<@SmatZ>OpenTTD by default searches in /usr/local/share/games/openttd, but gentoo installs data files to /usr/share/games/openttd (or something like that)
08:30<@SmatZ>so you can configure openttd with --prefix-dir=/usr
08:30<krinn>also in .openttd ?
08:30<@SmatZ>or copy the data files in ~/.openttd
08:30<@SmatZ>yeah
08:30<krinn>-> ~/.openttd i mean
08:30<krinn>ok
08:31<@SmatZ>it searches your home dir, if it's not there, it searches the share dir
08:31<@SmatZ>see section 4.2 of readme.txt
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08:43<dihedral>uh - hello SmatZ
08:46<@SmatZ>hello dihedral
08:47<dihedral>:-)
08:47<dihedral>how are you sir?
08:48<@SmatZ>quite fine :) how are you?
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08:49<dihedral>doing well, very busy, but doing well :-)
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08:50<Nite>Hi
08:50<@SmatZ>:)
08:50<@SmatZ>hello Nite
08:50<Nite>lets get straight to moaning about automatic orders ? ;-)
08:51<@planetmaker>they are of no consequence and don't impact path finding
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08:51<@planetmaker>they're purely visual information for you to see what stations were visited
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08:51<Nite>... i rebuilt the track, in the process the trains circle at a station the list fills up with auto orders ... mehhh ....
08:51<@planetmaker>:-)
08:52<Nite>they are purely visual confusion, and i heard that someone might have hit the max 255 orders with it ...
08:53<@planetmaker>I also heart the moon was made of a giant slab of Gouda ;-)
08:53<@planetmaker>(yes, I read that fill-up somewhere, too)
08:53<@SmatZ>:)
08:53<Nite>its strange that an auto order is added every time a train visits tgeh same station over and over again
08:54<Nite>(and i thought it was emmental ?)
08:54<Nite>oh if it only where "if you dont like auto orders dont use them" but it isnt
08:54<Nite>nuff moaning now
08:56<V453000>pm: not fill-up, I think Nite meant that the orders make such mess that they just fill the 255 auto orders themselves
08:56<@planetmaker>it's just visual... it's so that people actually see where a train stopped
08:56<V453000>it is useless and annoying :)
08:56<@planetmaker>V453000, yes, I know, that's what I mean
08:56<@planetmaker>hm, are they?
08:57<V453000>they make it messy, for nothing to gain
08:57<@planetmaker>I think you gain a lot, if you use "goto" instead of "goto non-stop" orders.
08:58<@planetmaker>It doesn't help with typcial coop setups a bit, that I agree
08:59<V453000>I do not see what you gain :)
09:00<Nite>true you can get around it with nonstop orders somehow ...
09:01<V453000>you need the "goto" sometimes
09:01<Nite>true
09:01<Nite>also
09:01<Nite>and its not just visual because of the limit ...
09:03<Nite>(btw if huge hairy long legged spiders crawl around your ceiling it is also just visual, but still distracting)
09:03<@SmatZ>?
09:03<@SmatZ>if you want to add manual order, you can just delete the automatic orders
09:03<@SmatZ>or maybe, it could be deleted automatically
09:03<@SmatZ>and maybe there should be a switch to turn off showing of automatic orders
09:04<Nite>yes there should be.
09:04<V453000>SmatZ: when there are over 200 automatic orders and constantly adding some new, it often just is not possible to add orders, unless you stop the trains so they stop adding new
09:05<@SmatZ>V453000: that sounds like a theoretical situation
09:05<V453000>it actually isnt
09:05<Nite>though i have to say i try to use as few orders as posible and often solfe situations with signalling and only 2 3 or 4 orders
09:05<@SmatZ>k :P
09:05<V453000>have a group of shared orders, and it is very simple to reach
09:06<V453000>either way, it still is a complication with no advantage
09:06<@SmatZ>V453000: I still think you are able to delete orders much faster than they are added
09:06<Nite>even some unloading loops that are overload save can be done without gettin autoorders
09:07<Nite>but still when i get them i get afraid :~)
09:07<V453000>SmatZ: we tried something like that, we had a srnw where all the autoorders were adding _super_ quickly, since 200 trains shared the orders ... editing them required to stop all the shared trains
09:08<V453000>although I am not sure how it works with shared orders, it totally did not help
09:08<@SmatZ>V453000: ok, it's possible
09:08<Nite>whos brainchild where autoorders anyway ?
09:09<@SmatZ>it's part of fonsinchen's cargod*st, I think
09:09<@SmatZ>and people want cargod*st
09:10<V453000>it would be awesome if they were disablable :(
09:10<@SmatZ>blablablae :)
09:10<V453000>cargod*st is also ... stupid to be subtle :)
09:10<@SmatZ>well, many players seem to request that in some form :)
09:11<Nite>i want to cargodest too - but too switchoffable (disableable :-) )
09:13<V453000>"most" of people usually means "dumb"
09:13<Nite>all cargodösts where dull untill now
09:13<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> I also heart the moon was made of a giant slab of Gouda ;-) <-- everybody knows the moon is made of meat.
09:14<@SmatZ>:D
09:14<Nite>is it that hard to simply add some existing desired destination to cargo - and when you drop it somwhere else it is not accepted?
09:14<Nite>there still could be both cargo with destination and without
09:15<@planetmaker>Nite, cargodIst has a different goal than cargodEst
09:15<@planetmaker>dEst might possibly more what you think of when hearing cargod*st (so do I actually)
09:15<Nite>i know i just never remember which is which
09:15<V453000>I just do not see why people need to be told where to transport stuff like stupid sheep...instead of making up a path on their own,
09:15<Nite>still the goal is somewhat similar
09:15<V453000>well I do see why but that isnt subtle or friendly towards people
09:16<@planetmaker>Nite, well... not quite ;-)
09:16<Nite>"you cannot yust bring cargo or pax just anywhere"
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09:16<@planetmaker>distribution != destinations
09:16<@planetmaker>with distribution it can get re-routed on the fly
09:16<@planetmaker>with destinations it has a fixed destination whether a route exists or not
09:16<Nite>hmmmm
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>man what's with all the hostility people...
09:17<Nite>i agree that its fun to have your own path with cargo
09:17<V453000>the aim is realism I assume
09:17<Nite>but it is simply strange with pax
09:18<@planetmaker>it's cozy in here, Eddi|zuHause :-) Or do you see hostile people?
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the aim is making two-way transfers work.
09:18<V453000>:D
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>like a hub airport, or a main station.
09:19<@SmatZ>that's always been problem in coop pax games
09:19<Nite>good pooint "twowaytransfers"
09:20<Nite>or hub statoins at all sometimes
09:20<V453000>pointless imo
09:20<@planetmaker>nah, I don't think it's pointless. It can actually be quite fun
09:20<@planetmaker>Use a few transfer stations. And bring stuff from there to where it shall go
09:20<@planetmaker>or to the next regional transfer station. I think it can be quite awesome
09:20<Nite>or have taht central pax hub
09:21<Nite>to another town
09:21<@planetmaker>I'd do a regional p2p and a star-shaped network somewhat in a single region ;-)
09:21<Nite>but
09:22<Nite>there i s teh issue that all pax woudl get on any vehicel assuming it may bring them where they want
09:22<Nite>so pax got to be abel to look ahead
09:22<Nite>thats the challenge i gess (cargodist or dest?)
09:22<Nite>+ u
09:23<@Belugas>hello
09:24<Nite>anyway its fun without cargodiest too .. very much so
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09:25<Nite>afk
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09:57*krinn love the breakpoint on word on openttd 1.1
10:01<Ammler>does someone understand that ^ ?
10:02<@peter1138>Probably krinn does.
10:02<krinn>lol
10:02<@Yexo>probably the ai debug feature
10:02<krinn>yep Yexo
10:02<krinn>it's a cool feature
10:03<krinn>lol missing var inspector and we got gdb
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%%20Transport,%%2010.%%20Apr%%201927.png <- my whimsy approach at a transfer seaport...
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>err...
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%20Transport,%2010.%20Apr%201927.png
13:16<@planetmaker>what is the alpinew.mod.grf? ;-)
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i hacked it to skip the industry part ;)
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>also, to provide food acceptance for some houses
13:20<canis85>does anyone else use the ECS grf's much?
13:21<@SmatZ>George
13:21<canis85>I've been playing with them for a while and I enjoy them quite a bit
13:21<@planetmaker>I'm sure there are a lot of people who use it a lot
13:22<@planetmaker>newgrf authors usually enjoy it, if happy players post nice screenies from their games which feature their newgrf ;-)
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure less than 5% of all users actually use any newgrfs at all ;)
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13:22<canis85>hmm I'll have to do that when I get home then :)
13:23<canis85>I found the basic industry setup to be too simple
13:23<canis85>ECS is a fantastic answer
13:23<V453000>try FIRS, it is much better and unlike ECS it makes sense
13:24<canis85>lol I'll have to do that
13:24<canis85>the one complaint I do have is that I have to enable the bit for enhanced industry closure protection
13:24<canis85>otherwise my industries keep closing on me...
13:26<@planetmaker>well. That's what it's for ;-)
13:26<V453000>lol :)
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: at the same time, i hacked FIRS to allow being loaded simultaneously with alpine ;)
13:36<@Belugas>that is what one would call "challenge", canis85 ;)
13:36<@planetmaker>hehe @ Eddi|zuHause :-)
13:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I wonder... doesn't the debug parameter allow that?
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: couldn't change GRF-ID of alpine, because dbset wouldn't load then
13:37<@planetmaker>If not... it might be a feature request
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the debug parameter existed back then... not sure what it does either...
13:38<canis85>well yeah, and it usually worked for me
13:38<canis85>I guess the basic logic being that as long as it's producing above 'very low', it will stay open
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>bah... i need a next-station-lookahead in the pathfinder the same way as it's done for path signal reservation
13:38<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I think it exists for ages. But... well :-)
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but andy didn't say anything back when discussing this.
13:39<@planetmaker>well, I don't know :-)
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>it was definitely pre-action-14
13:39<@planetmaker>stone-age :-P
13:39<@planetmaker>ok, iron age
13:40<@planetmaker>stone age was when they weren't saved within savegames
13:40<@planetmaker>but for now: enjoy your evening(s). :-)
13:41<@planetmaker>sport ist mord. But a joyful one.
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13:42<canis85>is FIRS as aggressive as ECS with industry closing?
13:44<canis85>I had a regularly used cement plant in ECS that I kept having to refund
13:44<canis85>several deliveries a month, but it almost never got above 3%
13:44<canis85>very efficient workers I guess :P
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22296 /trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 8 changes by Kayos
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14:31<confound>canis85: no, by default nothing closes. if you turn it on, though, they slowly shrink and eventually close
14:32<canis85>ah okay thanks
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15:01<Fugas>guys, that 1.1.0 sucks!
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15:02<Wolf01>loal
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15:05<TrueBrain>hahahaha :)
15:06<TrueBrain>was he for real? Owh, briliant :)
15:06<Wolf01>another unsatisfied *I want to remove grfs from scenedit* customer
15:07<TrueBrain>sure he doesn't want copy/paste?
15:07<@Yexo>or another: I want very long trains and can't read to I think that feature was removed
15:08<TrueBrain>do those still exist?
15:08<@Yexo>the setting mammoth_trains was removed in 1.1 and replace by a new setting max_train_length (or something like that)
15:09<@Yexo>oh, and the length counter in the depot now shows the length in tiles instead of half-tiles
15:11<@Alberth>I still like the removal of the 'build while paused' cheat :)
15:12<frosch123>yeah, 1.0.5 will be a long-term used version, just like 0.6.3 :)
15:12<canis85>build while paused is part of the regular options now isn't it?
15:12<canis85>in 1.1
15:12<frosch123>canis85: yes
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15:12<frosch123>but at least 3 people complained already about it being removed
15:13<canis85>lol
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>feature request: apply the "diagonal level" tool [with ctrl] feature to "convert" as well
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15:26<@Alberth>codechange request: clean up the mess in that code
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15:32<Wolf01>feature request: I want convert signals with drag&drop :P
15:32<frosch123>i think there are 2 fs tasks about that, maybe we closed one
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15:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... bug or feature? building a station only checks town authority acceptance on the northern corner
15:49<frosch123>so the town the station will belong to
15:50<frosch123>or does that also happen when extending a station?
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15:52<Eddi|zuHause>northern corner of the selection
15:52<frosch123>well, the size of the station does not matter
15:53<frosch123>only the type of the station, and which town it will belong to
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you have one part inside town authority, and one part out of town authority, you can build the station if the northern tile is in the outer part. i.e. if you build a station north of the town, you can build closer to the center
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16:16<supermop>if i want a house to randomly use one of many sprites
16:16<supermop>how many can i choose from?
16:18<@Yexo>houses have 8 random bits, so 256
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16:19<@Yexo>if you abuse the animation state you could probably use 256*253 or something like that
16:19<@Yexo>in any case: more than you can draw
16:20<Sacro>that sounds like a challenge
16:20<supermop>well its a modular thing
16:20<supermop>made out of between 1 and 6 units
16:21<supermop>each of which has 8 sub units
16:21<supermop>each of those has 9 possible states
16:22<supermop>so i could make about 453 using layers in photoshop
16:23<supermop>now ideally,
16:24<supermop>i only actually need 42 sprites to make all of that
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm... besides the slightly higher top speed, and the fancy long distance car livery, the BR 18 is totally inferiour to the BR 38...
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>and in a mixed passenger/freight line, top speed is almost irrelevant
16:26<supermop>if i could give nml those sprites, then tell it to assemble them according to my rules
16:27<supermop>that would be pretty neat
16:27<frosch123>supermop: just kick me every day to finish the extended sprite layout :s
16:27<@Yexo>is the spec on that finished?
16:27<supermop>whooa is that planned? and what is it?
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16:29<frosch123>Yexo: at least in my head, except for stations
16:29<frosch123>for stations i am not sure in what order to put the bits for ultimate extensibility
16:29<frosch123>maybe i should update the wiki
16:29<frosch123>oh, and btw. my old patch was totally broken :p
16:30<@Yexo>why isn't the same order as for the action2's sufficient?
16:30<frosch123>supermop: usage of registers in spritelayouts, so you do not have to generate 453 spritelayouts, but can assemble them using expressions
16:30<@Yexo>oh, and I guess there need to be a different way to signal the 'new' format, since <num-sprites> is not used for stations
16:31<frosch123>Yexo: stations have this flag "use different action2 chain for the groundsprite"
16:31<frosch123>ideally that flag would be moved into the extended bits
16:31<@Yexo>but that flag is per station, not per spritelayout
16:31<frosch123>so every sprite (and recolour sprite) can come from the alternative chain
16:31<@Yexo>one could want to use some 'old-format' spritelayouts combined with some 'new' ones
16:32<@Yexo>which (with the spec as I've last read it) is perfectly possible for other features
16:32<frosch123>but then the next question is: why one layout? maybe use 4 bits for 16 chains? :s
16:32<frosch123>[22:30] <Yexo> oh, and I guess there need to be a different way to signal the 'new' format, since <num-sprites> is not used for stations <- i just use a new property; only one may be used at a time though
16:32<@Yexo>ah, ok
16:33<@Yexo>wouldn't it be easier to remove the alternative chain bit altogether?
16:33<@Yexo>is there a good reason to keep that if you can set the sprite via a register?
16:33<@Yexo>s/remove/deprecate for new format/
16:33<frosch123>yes, remove from action 0, put it into the spritelayout for every single sprite and recolour sprite
16:34<@Yexo>why do that? what's the point of it?
16:34<@Yexo>the bit is there to resolve which spritelayout to use
16:34<@Yexo>as soon as you've resolved a spritelayout it's too late to actually use that bit
16:34<frosch123>huh?
16:35<frosch123>first you resolve the spritelayout, than you can choose sprites from two different spritesets
16:35<@Yexo>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Action0Stations#General_Flags_13_ <- were are talking about prop 13 bit 0, right?
16:35<frosch123>yes
16:35<frosch123>but it has no effect on the selected layout
16:35<@Yexo>ah, right, sorry, I was confused a bit
16:36<frosch123>but on the action1 set being used
16:36<@Yexo>use that bit, when set add another byte to the format which will be the value of var 10 during the action1 selecting chain
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16:39<frosch123>hmm, so resolve the spritelayout, then build a set of all var10 values present and then resolve the spritesets for them
16:39<frosch123>sounds powerful
16:39<@Yexo>perhaps a bit over-the-top though
16:40<@Yexo>as it requires a varaction2 lookup for every different var10 value, as opposed to the max 2 lookups we do now
16:40<frosch123>yeah, grfauthors could abuse it and use a different chain for every single sprite
16:41<@Yexo>on the other hand that can be very useful, I can already think of a use-case in chips
16:41<frosch123>maybe 2 are enough, one chain for sprites with "loading stages", one chain for stuff without
16:41<@Yexo>currently the extra groundsprites are coded using grm/action6
16:42<@Yexo>using action1 for them would be useful, but they can't be added to the action1's for buildings, as that would mean duplicating the sprites a lot
16:42<@Belugas>#Digging in the dirt
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16:44<frosch123>Yexo: but would that need more than 2 chains?
16:44<@Yexo>1 for groundsprite, 1 for a building/crane/something else on one side of the track, 1 for cargo display on other side of the track
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16:45<@Yexo>we don't currently have that since it's way too much work to code, but with the extended format it'd become easy
16:45<frosch123>but wouldn't groundsprite and building/crane/something be the same?
16:45<@Yexo>no, groundsprite is sand/gravel/dirt/asfalt/whatever
16:46<frosch123>i.e. stuff without loading stages
16:46<@Yexo>building/crane/bullzoder is separate from that
16:46<frosch123>why can't you put them in one spriteset?
16:46<@Yexo>I want all possible combinations between them, so sand/building, sand/crane, sand/bulldozer, gravel/building, gravel/building etc.
16:46<@Yexo>same for cargo
16:47<@Yexo>so in reality it's sand/building/coal, sand/building/oil, sand/building/grain, etc.
16:47<frosch123>so you use sprites 0 - 3 for the ground, sprites 4 - 19 for the building
16:48<@Yexo>sure, but that requires duplicating the real sprites in the grf
16:48<frosch123>well, but ok, 3 chains might make it easier
16:48<@Yexo>that's not a requirement, I was just making up a good use-case
16:48<frosch123>so, let's add a bit for "take var 10" from another byte; but limit that one for 0-3 for now
16:49<@Yexo>if you want to limit it to 0-1 for now that's fine
16:49<frosch123>however, it would still be a fixed value in the layout, not a register
16:49<@Yexo>sure
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16:54<@Terkhen>good night
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16:57<supermop>sorry i had to go afk for a bit to do real work
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17:23<xQR>some of the random generated names people get are so silly that it really makes sure people find out how to set a name themselves :D
17:23<xQR>OTTD-3 * <x> Player (#317/4 (New)/US) has changed his/her name to Puruputupa
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17:24<xQR>he changed his name some seconds later :P
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17:29<frosch123>interesting feature
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17:31<xQR>i had simply forced them to spectators with name "Player" before but i think it's better with just giving them a random-generated name
17:31<xQR>their IP is stored for 48 hours and the name is reapplied if someone with the same IP returns within that time
17:31<xQR>so it also helps a bit to identify the nameless when they come and go
17:32<frosch123>yexo https://secure.openttd.org/wiki/Frosch/Extended_Sprite_Layout <- updated the stuff
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17:37<@Yexo>frosch123: can you use prop 0A to copy a prop 20 layout?
17:37<frosch123>i would think so
17:39<@Yexo>maybe clarify that the default prop 10 value is 0?
17:39<@Yexo>and I don't think ttdpatch is going to like that part of the spec
17:40<@planetmaker>firs is not compatible anyway :-P
17:40<@Yexo>it's about stations :p
17:40<@planetmaker>:-D
17:41<@Yexo><Yexo> maybe clarify that the default prop 10 value is 0? <- nevermind that, it's clear enough below
17:41<frosch123>just edited :p
17:41<@Yexo>"(if not explicitly set, then station property 13 bit 0 takes effect)" <- I hadn't read that yet
17:42<frosch123>oh, i expanded at that place :p
17:42<@Yexo>well, it's better this way
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17:45<@Yexo>the spec looks very nice, I have no more comments there
17:47<andythenorth>hello
17:47<@Yexo>hey andythenorth
17:47<andythenorth>Yexo: I managed some station coding ;)
17:47<andythenorth>chips contains a (not finished) parcels office
17:48<@Yexo>I noticed, you missed to hg add a file
17:48<@Yexo>at least I think, the cf failed to compile chips today
17:48<andythenorth>bah
17:48<andythenorth>that always happens
17:49<andythenorth>cf should just build on commit
17:49<andythenorth>and whine straight away
17:49<andythenorth>or I should use a commit hook :P
17:49<@planetmaker>that's possible
17:49<andythenorth>thought so
17:49<@planetmaker>and that, too
17:50<andythenorth>it's user error
17:50<andythenorth>but asking me to be a better person hasn't solved it so far
17:50<@planetmaker>have you been asked to? :-P
17:50<andythenorth>many times
17:50<andythenorth>sometimes it works
17:50<andythenorth>hmm
17:50<andythenorth>CHIPS seems to get built on commit
17:51<andythenorth>brot just told me about it
17:51<andythenorth>anyway...extended action 2
17:51<@Yexo>andythenorth: only when the last compile failed
17:51<@planetmaker>grfs where the nightly failed get built upon commit until they build (again)
17:51<andythenorth>ah
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17:53<andythenorth>Yexo: bullzoder is a nice typo :)
17:53<andythenorth>I may name something after it
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17:55<@Yexo>andythenorth: how do you want the parcels office to work?
17:55<frosch123>night
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17:55<andythenorth>Yexo: as it does now
17:55<andythenorth>unless I miss something :)
17:55<andythenorth>I ignored GRM etc
17:56<andythenorth>it's just a simple dumb 1 tile building until future notice :)
17:56<@Yexo>currently is generates some warnings
17:56<supermop>hey, what is the pixel height limit for a building?
17:57<andythenorth>Yexo: oh :(
17:57<andythenorth>so it does
17:57<andythenorth>I missed those last night
17:57<@Yexo>it doesn't work at all here
17:57<@Yexo>+ all the non-track platforms seem to be broken
17:57<andythenorth>I wonder why
17:58<@Yexo>hmm, that was probably from my testing
17:58<andythenorth>how interesting
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17:58<andythenorth>no breakage or warnings for me
17:58<andythenorth>everything is committed :)
17:59<@Yexo>indeed, neither for me now
17:59<@Yexo>I should've cleaned up before compiling
17:59<@Yexo>so no different groundsprites needed for the parcels office?
18:00<andythenorth>at the moment no
18:00<andythenorth>just uses a common base tile for town buildings
18:00<@Yexo>cool, that makes it easy :)
18:00<andythenorth>the only issue for me is that it doesn't (yet) look good
18:01<@planetmaker>supermop: something like 240px or so, then it starts to glitch
18:01<@Yexo>well, that's a graphical issue, nothing I can help with
18:01<andythenorth>he
18:01<andythenorth>indeed
18:01<@planetmaker>TTRS has some high buildings which already glitch
18:01<@Yexo>240px? I thought it was something like 130px or so
18:01<@planetmaker>the blue towers with the |V| - shaped roof
18:03<@planetmaker>I think it was higher... but maybe 240 is already too high. I chose 160 for the comic houses and that afaik didn't yet glitch
18:03<andythenorth>Yexo: not sure if the bounding box is correct for parcels office, but haven't seen any probelms
18:03<@Yexo>it is correct
18:03<supermop>hmm
18:04<andythenorth>thanks
18:04<andythenorth>and good night ;)
18:04<supermop>well sticking below 240 would let me cull some of the taller possible configurations
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18:04<supermop>160 would be a bit short for what I want though
18:05<@planetmaker>maybe 240 was the TTRS building size which glitched ;-)
18:06<supermop>240 would be ten shaft modules for this building
18:07<supermop>i was planning on 6 or 7 as the maximum I would use anyway
18:07<supermop>so I should be safe
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18:09<@planetmaker>well, you'll need to check it out. 160 was safe. Above that: dunno
18:10<supermop>ok
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18:11<Chris_Booth>240px how tall is that?
18:11<Chris_Booth>that like 1/4 of my screen in height
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18:11<Chris_Booth>thats a big building
18:12<@planetmaker>@calc 800/240
18:12<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 3.33333333333
18:12<@planetmaker>a third of mine ;-)
18:12<+glx>@calc 1050/240
18:12<@DorpsGek>glx: 4.375
18:13<@planetmaker>but for 13" it's good enough ;-)
18:13<supermop>pretty tall
18:14<+glx>@calc 240/1050
18:14<@DorpsGek>glx: 0.228571428571
18:14<+glx>was the wrong way ;)
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18:16*andythenorth awoke from sleep with a dream of a bananas changelog field
18:17*andythenorth will now go back to sleep :P
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18:23<Wolf01>'night
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18:57<__ln__>ummm.. what is an idiomatic way to say "to my luck, and to unluck of someone else ..." in english? 'unluck' is not a real word.
18:58<supermop>misfortune
18:59<Prof_Frink>__ln__: It's not very English to wish misfortune on others.
18:59<Prof_Frink>Unless they're german.
19:00-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-208-105-82-238.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit []
19:03<__ln__>Prof_Frink: i'm stating a fact, not particularly wishing anything.
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19:23<Chaot_s>hi all, since ottd 1.1.0 in a servergame the max train length is 7 tiles, i can't find where to change that. I think i'm missing the wikipage.
19:24<Chaot_s>since the server is non gui i can't simply change the settings
19:24<xQR>max_train_length = 7
19:24<xQR>search that in openttd.cfg and replace it by the length you want
19:25<Chaot_s>hmm i actualy used my old config file :)
19:25<Chaot_s>thanx i'll look in to it :D
19:25<xQR>yes but once you run the new version it should have added this option to the config
19:25<xQR>run it once and exit it
19:25<xQR>on exit it should write the config including this new setting
19:25<xQR>or well, just add it to the old config with the number you want :P
19:26<xQR>64 is max
19:27<Chaot_s>i can't change the option in a running game i presume ?
19:27<+glx>just try :)
19:28<xQR>it's working here, at least the console isn't complaining
19:28<Chaot_s>on the server console (shh / screen) "set max_train_length = 28" should do the in game trick?
19:28<Chaot_s>or... am i wrong?
19:29<xQR>setting max_train_length 10
19:29<xQR>setting max_train_length
19:29<xQR>Current value for 'max_train_length' is: '10' (min: 1, max: 64)
19:29<+glx>should work
19:29<xQR>no, just enter "setting max_train_length 10"
19:29<xQR>or 20 or whatever
19:29<Chaot_s>its working :D
19:30<xQR>:)
19:30<Chaot_s>indeed i should leave out the = sign :D
19:30<Chaot_s>is there a reason other than game slowdowns?
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i found a firs translation bug (besides the "x crates of * supplies" i mentioned earlier): in the "Schmiede" it says "Werkzäuge", should be "Werkzeuge"
19:31<xQR>reason for what?
19:31<xQR>the new setting just allows a more precise setting
19:31<xQR>i think before you could only set mammoth_trains on or off
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: also i think the words there could use an "n" at the end...
19:31<Chaot_s>a reason that the game default setting went to 7 tile TL. ah i should realy stop asking and read te changelog :D
19:32<+glx>I think it was 7 tiles without mammoth_trains
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "zu [...] Zäunen [...]" etc.
19:33<xQR>or a dev has just rolled a dice
19:33<xQR>why would it matter anyway?
19:33<xQR>you have to pick something
19:33<xQR>and you only have a chance of 1/64 to hit the taste of someone and 63 chances to do it wrong in someones opinion :P
19:33<Chaot_s>out of curiosity. since most default setting are set to a sane limmit.
19:34<Chaot_s>and once chage away from defaults, it might hinder gamplay :)
19:34<+glx>7 tiles is 14 wagons
19:34<+glx>looks like original TTD
19:34<xQR>and now who defines what's sane and what isn't?
19:34-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5B72.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own]
19:34<xQR>i think 14 cars (with default grf) is a pretty long train
19:35<Chaot_s>jups :)
19:35<Chaot_s>1.0.5 i used to play with large central hubs
19:36<xQR>you can do large central hubs with short trains just as well - in this case "large" would refer to a big amount of tracks
19:36<xQR>:P
19:36<Chaot_s>those would have several 72 (36) length trains transporting like a sort of backbone
19:36<Chaot_s>and since the update i could not do that anymore
19:36<Chaot_s>overloading a network with 300+ trains :D
19:37<xQR>if it's overloaded with 300 trains you need a better design for your system =)
19:37<Chaot_s>its a small map :D
19:37<Chaot_s>and... a poor design :)
19:37<xQR>see? :)
19:38<Chaot_s>although i tried sticking more and more to the main wikitips
19:38<Chaot_s>of travel distance and empty trains
19:38<Chaot_s>its expirimental
19:39<Chaot_s>the hub system with feeding bay's works like a charme :D
19:39<Chaot_s>though i wanted a large ring network now
19:39<Chaot_s>so i would lose lots of merging... it went to a drame :D
19:39<Chaot_s>*drama
19:40<xQR>lol
19:40<Chaot_s>i'm mostly playing sandbox on a server :D
19:40<xQR>well openttd has lots of drama kings on multiplayer servers
19:41<xQR>:P
19:41<Chaot_s>400+ mil encome :D
19:41<Chaot_s>234 trains and 440 / 470 mil a game year
19:41<xQR>yeah negotiation with the admin interface is finally finished - not it's sending me allllll his updates
19:41<xQR>gimme updateeeeezzzzzz
19:42<xQR>*now
19:42<xQR>that means: time to go sleep
19:42<xQR>gn8 ;)
19:42<Chaot_s>sleep well and thanx for the help and info!
19:42<xQR>yw
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19:47<Chris_Booth>so who needs to see a 1000+ train network?
19:47<Chris_Booth>to see what mad looks like?
19:47<Chris_Booth>and then a 2500+ train network to see insanity
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>i bet my 40 train network looks way cooler than yours...
19:59<Lokimaros>!passworm
19:59<Lokimaros>!password
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20:00<Lokimaros>Sorry.
20:00<__ln__>is passworm something like a sandworm
20:00<Lokimaros>Yes, but it excretes passes.
20:01<__ln__>alright
20:05<Lokimaros>Or it excretes in passing, I neve got the details.
20:05<Lokimaros>Anyway, I'm back up on the PC.
20:06<Lokimaros>And hardly any data lost, was able to recover all but the root filesystem.
20:06<Lokimaros>That is still there, but all in lost+found.
20:06<Lokimaros>The whole fscking partition.
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20:24<__ln__>is it wrong to emphasize the great size of US by saying it is "the size of Texas"?
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20:27<+glx>not for a texan I guess
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21:23<Eddi|zuHause>a person saying this has likely no clue how large either actually is ;)
21:26<__ln__>i was planning to use it in ironic sense in a paper :)
21:38<Eddi|zuHause>irony is a dangerous thing. especially in written text
21:39<__ln__>it is
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 06 00:00:29 2011