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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-06

---Logopened Wed Apr 06 00:00:29 2011
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00:51<@planetmaker>good morning
00:51<@planetmaker>thanks Eddi|zuHause for the FIRS translation hints. fixed now
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02:37<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:24<norbert79>Good day
03:27<dihedral>good morning :-)
03:29<dihedral>planetmaker, ist there a screenshot of the titlegame that won the competition?
03:29<@planetmaker>Well... it's also in 1.1.0 ;-) - but yes, on the titlegame page
03:30<dihedral>i am at work and did not want to start a game :-D
03:30<@planetmaker>pussy :-P
03:32<norbert79>planetmaker: Question: - Will this page be updated sometimes in the future? Been a while since last update :)
03:32<@planetmaker>hardly. There's no such thing as a road map really
03:32<@planetmaker>of course everyone is welcome to edit it for the existing versions
03:32<@planetmaker>it's a wiki.
03:33<@Yexo>not that page :)
03:33<norbert79>Agreee, that it isn't necessary too, but then I would suggest a huge REJECTED logo on it 45° degreed with huge big letters :)
03:33<@Yexo>all roadmap pages are locked, and for good reason
03:33<@planetmaker>oh, they're locked? I didn't know that :-)
03:33*andythenorth would like to put bananas changelog field on the roadmap
03:33<andythenorth>oh no
03:33<dihedral>c'mon - it's been like that for a long time pm ^^
03:33<andythenorth>that means it would never happen :(
03:34<@Yexo>and we don't even have a roadmap 1.2 page
03:34<dihedral>but it's true, a roadmap would not really help ^^
03:34<andythenorth>what's needed for a changelog? - a new django field, a new text panel in game?
03:34<norbert79>Oops, arm cut off
03:34<andythenorth>it might be useful to tie changelogs to specific versions
03:35*andythenorth isn't sure how bananas schema works
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03:35<V453000>holy cow, I think I found an openttd crashing thingy in 1.1.0 stable
03:35*planetmaker assignes bananas re-write to andy, including changelog field, multi-author access and what-not
03:36<V453000>also morning everyone :)
03:36<@planetmaker>moin v :-)
03:36<andythenorth>we're rewriting bananas?
03:36<andythenorth>oh I see
03:36<andythenorth>I'm rewriting bananas?
03:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: that's what tb constantly claims needs doing
03:36<andythenorth>build a new one
03:36<andythenorth>in pyramid
03:36<@planetmaker>the db design and stuff
03:36<andythenorth>new framework fallacy :P
03:37<V453000>ah, well I was trying to click the "down" button quickly in openttd while downloading new content, and when I pressed it quickly several times, openttd crashed 2 times in a row ... does that have something to do with bananas and your work there or openttd?
03:37<norbert79>I prefer the upside down pyramid... It is a bigger challange
03:37<@Yexo>V453000: known and fixed in trunk
03:38<V453000>ok :) thanks
03:38<@Yexo>FS#4571 / fixed in r22294
03:38<norbert79>So I assume 1.1.1 will appear soon :D
03:39<@planetmaker>I don't think that bug is serious enough to warrant a out-of-order release. But it will come for sure.
03:39<V453000>sure isnt, it just surprised me :p
03:40<@planetmaker>stable just means the relative bug count per line of could is or should be lower when compared to trunk ;-)
03:40<@planetmaker>s/line of could/line of code/
03:40<norbert79>planetmaker: Ooh, god, what possibilities... Starting a flame on stable and appearnt bug ammount :)
03:41<norbert79>But I don't want to pick up my trollface :D
03:41-!-snorre_ is now known as snorre
03:41<norbert79>Btw is it also this cloudy in Germany too planetmaker? Btw weather would be a nice idea in the game
03:42<norbert79>fog affecting trucks on half speed
03:42<norbert79>snow blocking trains
03:42*andythenorth thinks time to do something else
03:43<andythenorth>if we rewrote bananas
03:43<andythenorth>we could add 'mod down points'
03:43<andythenorth>for badly behaved grfs
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03:44<norbert79>andythenorth: Would be a good idea, yet just plain raitings would also do the trick
03:44<norbert79>since think about it, some GRF maker would see in an other GRF a competency and starts devoting it
03:45<andythenorth>ratings are bad
03:45<andythenorth>points against technical criteria are not
03:46<norbert79>same method, same results... And you guys have to all review all the GRF's and handle false statements on bad behaviour too
03:46<norbert79>which might turn out to be false
03:46<norbert79>same misery like handling GRF changed savegames
03:47<andythenorth>norbert79: describe a system to decide a rating (say between 0 and 5, with 5==highest)...
03:47<norbert79>No, I don't think that the rating system in itself makes any sense
03:48<norbert79>like you have B1.GRF which makes trains shiny, I have B2.GRF which turns trains into more shiny trains... Now you introduce one new feature, and I am in envy, and rate your GRF very bad, and ask 10 more people to do so
03:48<norbert79>while the GRF works perfectly
03:48<norbert79>Now think further :)
03:48<andythenorth>my proposal is for boolean mod-down points, on specific issues
03:49<andythenorth>nothing ever implies a grf is good
03:49<andythenorth>but if it has known problems for version x.y.z, that's indicated
03:49<andythenorth>e.g. known bugs
03:49<andythenorth>or it's not a final release
03:49<norbert79>No, rating should not be introduced at all, and leave up to people to decide what GRF to be downloaded and used... If some GRF won't be downloaded for like 2 years, then it can go
03:50<andythenorth>norbert79: what problem do you think I'm trying to solve?
03:50<norbert79>Avoiding GRFs on poor quality
03:50<andythenorth>and for why?
03:50<norbert79>For less headache, but ratings will just do the oppositew
03:51<andythenorth>less headache for who?
03:51<norbert79>since the results can be manipulated
03:51<norbert79>for OpenTTD dev team what else?
03:51<andythenorth>ok so here's the issue I see
03:51<andythenorth>currently most grfs on bananas are not 'done'
03:51<andythenorth>many are 'quite done'
03:51<andythenorth>some are probably broken
03:52<norbert79>Is OpenTTD finished?
03:52<andythenorth>because changing grfs in game breaks games, we've banned that
03:52<norbert79>that wasn't the best choice btw, but a reasonable
03:52<norbert79>But let me ask back: when will OpenTTD be finished?
03:52<norbert79>Don't answer
03:52<andythenorth>so now an unsuspecting bananas user downloads grf xyz, finds it has problems, and has to start over with a new game
03:52<norbert79>you cannot
03:52<norbert79>same goes for GRFs
03:53<andythenorth>that's kind of bollocks really isn't it
03:53<andythenorth>it's never 'finished', but there's a clear difference between a nightly, a pre-1.0 release, and a post 1.0 release
03:54<norbert79>Introduce then requirements and have a beta banana and a stable one, like with Debian... Set policies, where GRFs have to fit against, otherwise they go back to the beta pool... But ratings are like statistics, they can be easily manipulated...
03:55<norbert79>ratings will turn Bananas into a disaster
03:55<andythenorth>is the Debian policy system a disaster?
03:55<dihedral>bananas rewrite?
03:55<dihedral>you'd surely want it in python though, would you not? ^^
03:55<dihedral>django ^^
03:55<andythenorth>pyramid :P
03:55<norbert79>No, but no package goes into a pool just because it's being voted for that
03:55<andythenorth>norbert79: was voting mentioned?
03:55<dihedral>andythenorth, java servlets :-D
03:56<norbert79>Think about the fact, that with ratings new GRF developers will have no chance on releasing newly developed GRF's, and have less opportunity to spread their ideas, since older GRF's have 123456789 good votes and his only 2
03:56<andythenorth>only on the assumption your making that the system includes voting
03:56<norbert79>Ok just one question so I can understand you right
03:57<norbert79>Would you leave rating to the users or the developers?
03:57<andythenorth>same as forums etc
03:57<andythenorth>small number of people
03:57<andythenorth>we don't allow voting on commits
03:57<norbert79>Ok, then many of my comments are out of question
03:57<@planetmaker>I don't really want to judge the quality of the grfs users supply in an authorative way
03:57<dihedral>i'd not do rating at all to be honest
03:58<@Yexo>only letting a small number of users (devs/mods or not) vote is a bad idea
03:58<dihedral>letting anybody vote is a bad idea too ^^
03:58<@Yexo>now if there was a clear set of rules and there only has to be a yes/no decision, that can be done by a small number of people
03:58<andythenorth>it's objective criteria
03:58<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, I would also think fitting to specific requzirements would be a better solution too, like: 1.) does the GRF support latest stable (1.1.0) or works only with speciifc version - 1pt
03:58<andythenorth>I'm asking for fact, not opinion
03:58<dihedral>i think voting / rating will get in the way
03:58<norbert79>yeah, exactly
03:58<andythenorth>for example, it's fact whether a grf is savegame safe
03:59<andythenorth>it's fact whether it implements action 14 stuff or not
03:59<dihedral>authors might feel 'bashed' by bad rating and stop their work
03:59<@planetmaker>but there is no small set of rules. Or it'd require extensive review. Who's willing to do that? In an objective way?
03:59<norbert79>andythenorth: Ok then we are talking about the same method, just from different perspective
03:59<dihedral>which is a very bad side effect
03:59<@Yexo>norbert79: grfs can already have minimum and maximum version, so if it doesn't work in 1.1 just set the maximum version to 1.0
03:59<norbert79>Yexo: One problem less then :)
03:59<andythenorth>players might feel bashed by an extensive number of grfs that break their games
04:00<@planetmaker>hm... slovak language still broken
04:00<andythenorth>(if such an extensive number exists, I'm not sure actually)
04:00<norbert79>ands despite good generic rating GRF's can still cause issues
04:00<dihedral>that though is another problem - and voting / rating is not a good solution to that, andythenorth
04:00<andythenorth>there's no 'good' rating
04:00<andythenorth>just 'this grf has known problems'
04:00<@planetmaker>well. Every grf has. As a matter of perspective
04:00<@planetmaker>balancing ;-)
04:00<@planetmaker>cross-grf "talk"
04:00<@planetmaker>etc pp
04:01<andythenorth>well currently for a player, it's a total crap-shoot
04:01<norbert79>planetmaker: Considering of course what was it made for, like Town names GRF's would not have too much issues, but it was more meant just to replace names, right?
04:01<andythenorth>they have barely any way of knowing what a grf is / does, what it's compatible with etc.
04:01<andythenorth>and once they commit to their game, that's it
04:01<dihedral>bananas provides a service for grf authors - which is in game deployment
04:01<@planetmaker>norbert79: I can no problem combine evil-ism with town names
04:01<dihedral>it is the users choise which grf to get / install / use
04:02<andythenorth>but it's a hugely uninformed choice
04:02<norbert79>planetmaker: Ok, maybe I had my sleep and haven't thought through that from a more evil perspective :D
04:02<@planetmaker>there's no safe grf à priori
04:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth: so is the use, of say, an app store
04:02<andythenorth>isn't the current situation equivalent to going to Youtube or whatever and clicking some buttons for 'some random videos that have nice sounding names'?
04:02<@planetmaker>you just gotta know what to download
04:02<andythenorth>bad example :P
04:03<andythenorth>app stores have policies
04:03<norbert79>planetmaker: Careful using the words app store, Apple might sue you :D
04:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes: conforms to broad standards
04:03<@planetmaker>so does bananas have.
04:03<@planetmaker>there are TOS, that's it.
04:03<@planetmaker>No warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, including merchandisability or whatever
04:04<@planetmaker>even your licenses say so :-P
04:04<andythenorth>an app store might have things including: useful descriptions, reviews, ratings, links to developer website, similar apps
04:04<andythenorth>bananas provides almost none of that
04:04<@planetmaker>so do newgrf descriptions
04:04<norbert79>andythenorth: App-Store BASIC! Just from OpenTTD for YOU!
04:04<norbert79>no need for the shiny things
04:04<norbert79>just what the player needs
04:04<norbert79> :)
04:05<norbert79>Yet for the downloader I would suggest having a : "Select all unselected" button, so I can easly download all missing GRF's :)
04:06<norbert79>Btw my OpenTTD got larger, now it is around 440 MB, having ALL GRFS included, even past versions, and all the binaries for all the OS
04:06<@planetmaker>that was not added on grounds of "choose explicitly"
04:06<norbert79>planetmaker: I see, well, I am a collector though, maybe I am just that 1% :)
04:07<@planetmaker>you aren't
04:07<@planetmaker>many do, I think. If we add that 99% would do :-P
04:07<norbert79>well I doubt that many users prefer the game having it portable, so running it within one directory only all the time :)
04:08<@planetmaker>and you usually don't need "all grfs". You need those for your next game. Thus... you know which you need ;-)
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04:09<norbert79>I just love to experiment, and have scenario developer also allowed, but I am not a regular user neither of course, so I know the risk :)
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04:10<norbert79>OpenTTD is something I always come back too, despite whatever game I am addicted to recently...
04:11<dihedral>i've not been adicted to (playing) a game for a long time
04:13<norbert79>But about the rating system, version control is included, so that's not required. I think different policies should be set for different purposed GRFs, like addon cars, then have a set of requirements behalf of that, but town names should have a shorter list, yet included that one question if the GRF does have sideeffects or not
04:14<andythenorth>I would keep to a minimal list of requirements
04:15<Ammler>planetmaker: tell us the truth :-) what is more annoying the support questions you got because someone fiddled around with newgrfs on running game or the questions now from people asking how to change newgrfs on running game?
04:15<andythenorth>1. is this grf known to have serious problems, either on its own or due to its effect on other grfs
04:16<andythenorth>2. is this grf considered reasonably complete?
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04:16<andythenorth>3. does this grf implement various action 14 criteria?
04:16<andythenorth>4. does this grf provide documentation, e.g. at least a useful description?
04:16<norbert79>andythenorth:1.) Oh, well, that's something hard to tell really, since consider the definiton of problems... Take for example having loaded two town names GRF's at the same time... But also consider, that this was each GRF had to be reviewed against all the others GRF's too to be able to answer that question...
04:16<@Yexo>Ammler: currently the people asking how to change newgrfs on a running game
04:17<@Yexo>however that is because many of them are used to that working, since it did in previous versions
04:17<andythenorth>norbert79: there's no box to tick to say 'this grf has *no* problems'
04:17<norbert79>2.) Also hard to answer, but yet can be given a close answer behalf of it's goal and it's completiton
04:17<@Yexo>the older 1.0 gets, the less support requests we'll get about that
04:17<andythenorth>2 can be deferred to the development team if they are active
04:17<norbert79>andythenorth: Agree, yet that 1st question in that current form might just brong up more problems, than answers answered...
04:18<norbert79>questions answered
04:18<norbert79>andythenorth: Like take one GRF with planes and trains replacement, and load Aviatiors GRF.. of course it will bring problems
04:18<norbert79>andythenorth: But it's none of the GRFs fault
04:19<Ammler>and scenario_developer is a kind of insider, which you shouldn't share with newbies?
04:19<norbert79>cause the one already offers planes, because the GRF creator wanted to have like that
04:19<norbert79>so both work perfect, but together they don't, because it was nbever thought having them together...
04:20<norbert79>so on them own both work perfect...
04:20<norbert79>just one what-if scenario really
04:20<Ammler>I mean, that switch would solve the issue of those guys
04:20<@planetmaker>Ammler: in essence the scenario developer is a developer tool
04:20<@planetmaker>Such not a setting which a newbie should activate
04:21<norbert79>a newbie would never look inside the cfg file anyway
04:21<andythenorth>norbert79: I thought that might be the case that killed question 1 :P
04:21<andythenorth>I'm not sure question 1 is a boolean answer
04:21<Ammler>people asking for editing newgrfs on running game aren't newbies, are they?
04:21<norbert79>andythenorth: Yeah, but does that really make one GRF not perfect?
04:21<norbert79>andythenorth: i REALLY DOUBT :)
04:21<@planetmaker>Ammler: most are
04:21<andythenorth>norbert79: I think your point invalidates my question 1
04:21<andythenorth>question 1 can't be meaningfully answered
04:22<norbert79>andythenorth: Indeed
04:22<andythenorth>what is more correct: a grf disables default vehicles, or leaves them?
04:22<norbert79>I would really modify it too like: No serious issues, like crashes full crash of a savegame and such
04:22<norbert79>andythenorth: Depends..
04:22<@Yexo>if the grf provides a full set of vehicles it should disable the default ones
04:22<norbert79>Yexo: Exactly
04:23<@Yexo>there are multiple grfs around that can enable the default vehicles again for those who want that
04:23<andythenorth>Yexo: is that an established community standard?
04:23<@planetmaker>somewhat, yes
04:23<norbert79>So far yes, and I love this way too
04:23<Ammler>andythenorth: you still have default engine newgrf
04:23<@Yexo>yes, since before the engine pool all vehicle sets had no choice
04:23<Ammler>if you like "reenalbe"
04:23<andythenorth>is not disabling default vehicles a failure to meet a standard?
04:23<@Yexo>not really
04:23<norbert79>not at all
04:23<norbert79>Take Aviators airfcraft set
04:23<andythenorth>so that one isn't something that could be boolean checked
04:24<norbert79>why would it make sense to have base planes and the additional ones too?
04:24<andythenorth>if I change a track tile to a non-track tile in a station set, I *will* break savegames
04:24<andythenorth>that is a problem
04:24<norbert79>andythenorth: So?
04:24<andythenorth>so it crashes the game, last I checked
04:24<norbert79>If you apply a GRF in a savegame, then you know the risk, this is why you removed the GRF modification in game
04:24<andythenorth>umm no
04:25<norbert79>yeah, partially
04:25<andythenorth>yeah maybe
04:25<Ammler>andythenorth: only if a train is at that station, afaik
04:25<norbert79>alright, not feeling skilled enough typing down tousands of lines in a flash :D
04:25<andythenorth>does bananas handle that case for me?
04:25<andythenorth>assuming same grfid, no action 14
04:26<andythenorth>or does it just load the newer grf into my savegame?
04:27<andythenorth>if the latter, then it means you can download content from untrusted 3rd parties that can DoS your game
04:27<andythenorth>with no warning, even from a well-intentioned grf author
04:27<@planetmaker>no action14 means there's no newgrf version. It will take then a random one of those with the same grfID around
04:27<andythenorth>so potential DoS of my game...
04:27<andythenorth>and potential loss of user data
04:27<@planetmaker>(if the one used previously had no newgrf version either)
04:27<andythenorth>doesn't seem ideal
04:28<@Yexo>if you're going to make new requirements than having an action14 version could be one
04:28<andythenorth>I think action 14 is the broad solution to quite a few of the quality issues
04:28<andythenorth>I have been *strongly* encouraged to use action 14, I think that should be pursued further
04:28<andythenorth>especially now 1.1 is released
04:29<andythenorth>wrt savegame safety, and parameters, action 14 should be...not enforced...but highly encouraged
04:29<@planetmaker>well. grfcodec already complains, if it has no action14
04:29<@planetmaker>or nforenum. Dunno which
04:29<andythenorth>there's no subjectivity to assessing the action 14 implementation is there
04:29<andythenorth>it's straightforward
04:30<andythenorth>it could even be done by bananas, if it could interpret the grf
04:30<andythenorth>no human needed (tm)
04:31<@planetmaker>well, it could. And it would put an end to the possibility to add old(er) newgrfs to bananas
04:31<andythenorth>you wouldn't prevent it
04:31<andythenorth>just raise a flag
04:32<@planetmaker>like max_openttd_version 0.7.0 ;-)
04:32<andythenorth>depends how brutal you want to be :)
04:32<@planetmaker>then it could be downloaded, if needed (that's good), but not available for general download
04:33*andythenorth browses bananas
04:33<andythenorth>"Bauxite Waggon" raises an interesting case - read the description
04:33<@planetmaker>similar like all old versions can be downloaded, but are not generally available (anymore)
04:34<@Yexo>heh, why is that one not removed already?
04:34<@Yexo>who is the owner anyway?
04:34<@Yexo>please read the description in the online content window
04:35<@Yexo>"... (To whoever has the authority to do so: Please remove from Bananas)"
04:35<andythenorth>interesting case ;)
04:35<@Yexo>s/removed/set max version to 1.0 or so/
04:35<@planetmaker>oberhümer obviously. Maybe no one told him to do so
04:35<@planetmaker>It's not the most obvious thing to do
04:35<Ammler>he asked here already and we told him how to hide it
04:35<@planetmaker>I'll write him
04:36<Ammler>or was that someone else
04:36<@Yexo>was about to, but I'll leave it to you
04:37<@Yexo>how up to date is the 2cc Chimaera addon?
04:37<andythenorth>another criteria: grf name contains typos
04:37<Ammler>planetmaker: and he should "restore" the description :-)
04:37<andythenorth>Yexo: who knows :P There's no useful description, no added date, no modified date etc
04:37<Ammler>Yexo: it is for 1.0 afaik
04:37<andythenorth>is the URL field even useful? Really?
04:38<@Yexo>so outdated and should not be available, since 2ccset 1.0 is not available either
04:38<@Yexo>andythenorth: yes, via the webinterface
04:38<andythenorth>ah ok
04:39<Ammler>Yexo: let me check, if it is on the shared account
04:39<andythenorth>"no description" should be a boolean quality criteria. It's objective
04:39<Ammler>it isn't
04:39<@Yexo>what about "Arctic Remove SNOW"? A grf like that can only work properly with either original base graphics or OpenGFX, but it doesn't mention either in the description
04:40<@planetmaker>Yexo: but the chimeara add-on can be used on its own. E.g. with a non-maglev trainset
04:40<@Yexo>Ammler: BaseMod 3.0 and BaseMod 3.2 are both available for download
04:41<Ammler>Yexo: so you have multiple versions allowed?
04:41<@Yexo>they're available for download in the online content window
04:41<Ammler>elese those would need different entries
04:41<@Yexo>you can't enable multiple versions there
04:41<@planetmaker>ex's citybuilder
04:41<Ammler>hmm, so how is that possible?
04:41<Ammler>(not necessary)
04:42<@Yexo>hmm, in the webinterface there is only 1 BaseMod newgrf
04:42<Ammler>Yexo: there is a BaseMod Presets
04:42<Ammler>maybe you confused with that
04:42<@planetmaker>Ammler: there's 2x Base Costs and 1x BaseMod presets
04:43<@Yexo>^^ not confused with the presets one
04:43<Ammler>well, you are the bananas experts, tell me why :-)
04:43<norbert79>If you don't enable multiple versions to a mod, how are you able to remove an older version of a savegame, on which you have worked on for months and replacing it with a newer version,s ince you lost the older version?
04:43<Ammler>version 3.0 and 3.2 have same id and same bananas entry
04:44<@planetmaker>norbert79: download the missing grfs from the file load dialogue
04:44<andythenorth>norbert79: edge case?
04:44<norbert79>andythenorth: ?
04:44<@planetmaker>like download from the MP join lobby works for older newgrfs
04:44<@Yexo>norbert79: make sure not to lose newgrfs, just like you make sure not to lose that scenario?
04:44<@planetmaker>Ammler: interesting...
04:44<norbert79>planetmaker: Ah, right, new feature in 1.1.0 probably, haven't reviewed latest version in that depth
04:44<@Yexo>it also worked that way in 1.0 ;)
04:45<norbert79>Yexo: Probably, but I haven't had such an issue for a long time :)
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04:45<andythenorth>edge case :P
04:45<norbert79>Yexo: Lost a track a bit to OpenTTD since I got addicted to a different game :)
04:46<Ammler>also openttd version requirement are for both the same (0.7.2)
04:47<Ammler>planetmaker: Yexo, IMO it is simply, you have enabled multiversion and 3.0 is already in your local repo
04:47<andythenorth>should town names be sub-classed?
04:47<@planetmaker>Ammler: I just disabled that setting
04:47*Ammler starts his own openttd then :-P
04:47<@Yexo>Ammler: multiversion is disabled and I don't have either 3.0 or 3.2 locally
04:48<@Yexo>andythenorth: only if vehicle sets (perhaps per vehicle type) and industry sets are subclassed too
04:48<Ammler>there would also be a version 3.1, which isn't there
04:48<andythenorth>how many classes needed?
04:48<Ammler>that is really strange
04:48<@planetmaker>is it a coop grf?
04:48<andythenorth>classes would broadly match to feature bytes in nfo...
04:48<norbert79>maybe the developer never released 3.1
04:49<@planetmaker>Ammler: they're indicated incompatible
04:49<@planetmaker>3.2 is only compatible to itself
04:49<@planetmaker>thus it makes sense...
04:49<@Yexo>not really
04:49<andythenorth>tags aren't working ideally
04:50<@planetmaker>no minv = compatible to version itself, nothing more
04:50<@Yexo>so? 3.0 should only be available for people that already have 3.0 in a savegame / on a server, not for general download
04:50<Ammler>planetmaker: I already told you that that is wrong, so I can't fix that
04:50<Ammler>default should be version 0
04:50<@Yexo>no, definitely not
04:50<@planetmaker>but... then there should be 3.1, too
04:51<Ammler>you have again used the wrong value as default, you are known for such mistakes :-P
04:51<andythenorth>we can't work it should players? :D
04:51<@Yexo>planetmaker: think FIRS, there are multiple incompatible versions on bananas but only 1 shows as possible download
04:51<@planetmaker>Ammler: still, set max_openttd_version to 1.0 or so
04:51<@Yexo>Ammler: strongly disagree, if you really want compatibility from version 0 you have to think about that and actually set it
04:52<Ammler>planetmaker: it doesn't have vmin set at all, afaik
04:52<Ammler>that is the issue, isn't?
04:52<@Yexo>no vmin -> vmin = vcurrent
04:52<@planetmaker>not sure. I don't see 3.1 available
04:52<@Yexo>neither do I
04:52<@planetmaker>*not sure that's the issue
04:53<@Yexo>it isn't, bananas doesn't check the a14 IIRC
04:53<Ammler>I upload a new version with vmin 0, then we see?
04:53<@planetmaker>it does not afaik, indeed
04:53<@planetmaker>Ammler: just for that sake?
04:53<@planetmaker>not worth
04:53<Ammler>yes, why else?
04:53<@planetmaker>first edit the max version of 3.0 :-P
04:53<Ammler>[10:51] <planetmaker> Ammler: still, set max_openttd_version to 1.0 or so <-- didn't you mean that?
04:54<@planetmaker>oh, yes
04:54<@planetmaker>let's re-check
04:55<@planetmaker>hm, no change
04:55<Ammler>3.0 has no a14
04:56<Ammler>3.1 and 3.2 have
04:56<Ammler>so there is a difference between no a14 and a14 without mver maybe?
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04:58<dihedral>hello Ammler :-)
04:58<@planetmaker>maybe, yes
04:59<dihedral>maybe hello? :-P
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05:06<@planetmaker>dihedral: ;-)
05:06<@planetmaker>of course the error is right. But should it crash?
05:07<dihedral>no, should not :-) should exit cleanly :-D
05:08<dihedral>bug report? :-P
05:08*dihedral chuckles
05:08<dihedral>in fact, i would rather it created the file instead ^^
05:09<@planetmaker>that's what I hoped it'd do.
05:09<@planetmaker>Inventing a cfg file from scratch is... interesting, if you don't know the exact format ;-)
05:09<@planetmaker>nor the items it should contain
05:09<Ammler>hmm, hello dih :-)
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05:13<dihedral>planetmaker, touch grapes.cfg ;-)
05:13<dihedral>the rest it will do for you
05:13<@planetmaker>dihedral: I know ;-)
05:13<dihedral>yes yes :-D
05:13<dihedral>i'll fix it ;-)
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05:20<MinchinWeb>One thing that I think would be useful with the in-game Bananas screen is a way to copy/open the URL listed
05:20<MinchinWeb>most of them are to the TT-Forums site, and I don't want to type 9-odd random numbers and hope I get it right...
05:20<@Yexo>opening a browser is non-trivial to implement cross-platform
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05:21<MinchinWeb>could you make the text selectable somehow?
05:21<MinchinWeb>(copy and paste yourself to the webbrowser)
05:22<@Yexo>not sure how easy the clipboard is too support
05:22<@Yexo>perhaps it's already supported, I don't know
05:22<Ammler>on windows only, if
05:22<@planetmaker>pasting from clipboard is
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05:22<Ammler>ok, maybe mac too then ;-)
05:22<Ammler>but for sure not with sdl
05:22<@planetmaker>also linux
05:23<@planetmaker>but linux has more than one clipboard. Not sure each...
05:23<@Yexo>it is? how does it work
05:23<@planetmaker>ctrl+v pastes iirc
05:23<@Yexo>I can't get that to paste anything
05:24<Ammler>I know, it works on windows
05:24<Ammler>never was able to c&p on linux
05:24<@planetmaker>also on osx. I can't test linux right now
05:24<Ammler>that is why I "asked" for the command option -p
05:25<MinchinWeb>well I can't figure out how to select the text on Windows...
05:25<@planetmaker>I only know that pasting into openttd works. Not sure marking and copying works
05:27<MinchinWeb>Perhaps if you could get to the support page easily from the Online Content Form, many of the issues andy et al. were discussing would be less of an issue...
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05:34<norbert79>About Copy paste: Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins is one clipboard imho and Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V is the other
05:35<norbert79>sometimes both work to the same clipboard, sometimes those are seperated
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06:14<andythenorth>assuming url / copy and paste are out of the question....
06:14<andythenorth>url shortening service for bananas?
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06:33<andythenorth>how many versions of how many grfs do we expect?
06:33<andythenorth>@calc 26 * 26 * 26
06:33<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 17576
06:33<andythenorth>we could use a three letter code
06:33<andythenorth>a-z only, case insensitive
06:34<andythenorth>if we top out, add another letter :P
06:34<andythenorth>just make the string matching sufficiently smart
06:34*planetmaker doesn't really see much use in url-shortener
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06:34<andythenorth>I thought of it as a sticking plaster
06:34<norbert79>but don't end up like other game providers having an usrl of
06:34<andythenorth>but it's the same sticking plaster as tinyurl
06:35<andythenorth>tinyurl is....not unpopular
06:35<dihedral>i see no point in such a thing either
06:35<norbert79>me neither... Not necessary
06:35<andythenorth>so lets delete the url field from bananas then
06:35<norbert79>no, URL field can be sueful
06:36<andythenorth>the usability of the current field tends towards zero
06:36<dihedral>the url field is to link to their website, the forums or whatnot
06:36<dihedral>the author does that, not bananas
06:36<norbert79>since when I want to work on a GRF but vcan't start the game in work :)
06:36<andythenorth>the url field has severe usability issues
06:36<@planetmaker>you never look here, andythenorth ?
06:36<andythenorth>two of the possible fixes are unavailable to us
06:36<andythenorth>planetmaker: that is of no use in game
06:36<andythenorth>how does it help?
06:36<@planetmaker>you just enter the URL to your project, and the list is comprehensive. No need for any shortening or so
06:36<norbert79>andythenorth: But outside of the game
06:37<dihedral>bananas is not just 'in game' ;-)
06:37<andythenorth>how do you know the url to your project?
06:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you know the one of yours? You entered it
06:37<dihedral>oh dear :-P
06:37<andythenorth>but the player doesn't author projects
06:37<andythenorth>we cross talk :D
06:37<dihedral>planetmaker, you caused havok :-P
06:37<dihedral>you started it all ^^
06:38<dihedral>andythenorth, bananas is not just a "players" thing
06:38<andythenorth>I think it's barely a players thing at the moment at all
06:38<dihedral>oh boy
06:38<andythenorth>it's just a big black box
06:38<andythenorth>my solution is good
06:38<andythenorth>might be unneeded
06:38<@planetmaker>black box is different ;-)
06:39<andythenorth>but it's not bad
06:39<@planetmaker>But the URL things needing a change... I don't see why ;-)
06:39<dihedral>your solution does not match the requirements layed down for bananas in the first place :-P
06:39<andythenorth>got to to out - I'll explain later ;)
06:39<andythenorth>keep your arguments fresh :)
06:39*dihedral puts his arguments in the fridge
06:40<norbert79>watch for the expiry date :)
06:40*dihedral freezes boiling water
06:40<dihedral>you never know when you need boiling water ^^
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06:41<norbert79>Good point! :)
06:42<norbert79>while I guess it's possible somehow, since water boiles on a lower temperature under presure
06:42<norbert79>so I guess reaching that critical pressure might indeed allow freezing boiling water :))
06:43<norbert79>oh, wait, it's the other way around
06:43<norbert79>what about boiling freezing water?
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06:49<@planetmaker>it's called triple-point
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07:01<Eddi|zuHause>err... just because it's in gaseous form doesn't mean it's actually boiling.
07:05<dihedral>same with sucking air out of it ^^
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07:29*andythenorth boils freezing soup
07:29<andythenorth>and feeds it to the baby
07:30<andythenorth>what is the purpose, in game, of displaying the url field for a newgrf
07:30<andythenorth>in content download window
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07:34<@planetmaker>andythenorth, it may not be convenient, but it is of use IMHO
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07:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: in the random german town names, i think the suffixes -kirch and -kirchen appear too often
07:47<@planetmaker>generally all suffixes are equally likely. But kirch / kirchen are two, thus it may appear as double probability if looked at jointly
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's what i mean
07:47<@planetmaker>Also I'll not be unhappy about additional suggestions for pre- and suffixes ;-)
07:48<norbert79>This only shows how religious germans are :P
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm quite impressed overall, it sounds much more natural than the builtin ones ;)
07:48<@planetmaker>thanks :-)
07:49<@planetmaker>there are combinations which "holpern", but... ironing out those is exponentially more work ;-)
07:49<norbert79>Yexo: - Looks like having FUN... I guess despite it's in the readme and FAQ, noone is interested in reading :)
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08:21<dihedral>planetmaker, Bad, Schein (esp. fun with the town named 'Heilig' or 'Werfer') ... :-D
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08:26<norbert79>dihedral: Sounds weird though if it begins with Nebel and ends with Werfer :D
08:27<dihedral>ingen is also a nice suffix ^^
08:29<@planetmaker>Bad is of course included as prefix.
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08:44<dihedral>planetmaker, how about 'i'
08:45<dihedral>iPlochingen iBonn iBerlin
08:45<dihedral>and suffix 2.0 :-P
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>AHH... MY EYES... i opened a JPG!
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09:18<MinchinWeb>hello :à
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>"Scientists! Investigate!" - "But we're playing Minecraft!" :p
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>now i need to investigate what a jelly bean actually is...
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10:43<__ln__>supermop: thanks
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11:08<@planetmaker><__ln__> ummm.. what is an idiomatic way to say "to my luck, and to unluck of someone else ..." in english? 'unluck' is not a real word.
11:08<@planetmaker><supermop> misfortune <-- reference probably
11:20<supermop>but that was yesterday
11:21<@planetmaker>IRC is not necessarily concurrent conversation ;-)
11:22<supermop>i mean, no need to thank me
11:22<@planetmaker>or real-time is the better word than concurrent
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11:27<supermop>brought my .psd file into work today
11:27<@planetmaker>bad boy. Good boy. Depends on view, I guess ;-)
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11:36<supermop>realized that the modules on rear of the shaft will never be seen, which lets me cut out 25% of the possible variations i need to plan for
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12:41<@planetmaker>hi flitz
12:41<flitz>i've got a question :)
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12:42<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
12:42<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
12:43<XeryusTC>planetmaker: that is not asking to ask ;)
12:43<supermop>its "telling to ask"
12:43<supermop>or maybe warning
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12:43<flitz>I've added a boolean value to the group struct but I can't get it to be set false by default. I set it false in the constructor and set it also false in the CmdCreateGroup function, but whatever, a newly created group in the game will have this bool set to 1
12:43<@planetmaker>"lo and behold: incoming question. Take cover. Now!"?
12:44<XeryusTC>yes :P
12:44<flitz>so, question: how ?
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12:44<@SmatZ>flitz: set a data breakpoint in gdb
12:44<@SmatZ>but I think you are doing something wrongly
12:45<@SmatZ>like, the variable is "false", but you are reading it incorrectly
12:45<@SmatZ>but you for some reason think it's "true", but it's in fact false
12:45<@SmatZ>eg., error in measurement technique
12:45<flitz>well, writing this->mybool=false; in the constructor and I test it by printf("%d\n",mybool); and wait for it to output 0 ;)
12:46<@SmatZ>can you upload the diff to trunk somewhere?
12:46<@SmatZ>(prefer this->mybool)
12:47<@SmatZ>or you might be reading some other (local) mybool
12:47<flitz>hm, its a whole lot of stuff regarding the template replacement
12:48<flitz>i've also written a function that takes a group_id and sets this bool regarding this id. when I call this function from the CmdCreateGroup(...) its not working, but when I call it from elsewhere it does
12:48<flitz>I also checked and it is always called for the right groupid
12:49<flitz>my assumption was that I didn't know of some routine that gets called when a new group is created or something like that
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12:50<@planetmaker><SmatZ> can you upload the diff to trunk somewhere? <-- ;-) or all discussion about what you do as opposed to intending to do is quite crystal ball reading
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12:59<flitz>or all discussion about what you do as opposed to intending to do is quite crystal ball reading <-- I pretty much told you everything I do, its one single line in the constructor basically ;)
13:00<flitz>upon group creation, the bool is set false as intented, but it is changed without me interfering somehow until a vehicle in this group arrives in the next depot, that is what is puzzling me, because I didn't change a thing about this
13:00<frosch123>all pool items are zero-initialised
13:00<frosch123>so you do not even need the stuff in the constructor
13:01<@SmatZ>planetmaker: hehe, yeah :)
13:04<@SmatZ>flitz: try setting the data breakpoint, you are probably doing something wrong
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13:27<supermop>ok time to get lunch
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14:33<dihedral># i wonder how and i wonder why ...
14:35<@Belugas># I wonder what tomorrow has ahead for me
14:35<dihedral>WORK :-P
14:36*dihedral hides
14:36<@Belugas>#or if i'm even in his mind at all
14:36<dihedral>whenever i hear your music you sort of are :-P
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14:36<@Belugas># sometimes i sit and gaze through sleepless dreams
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14:38<dihedral> <- oh yeah :-)
14:38<dihedral>nice "little" car :-)
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i drove a mini for a week, it's totally bad...
14:43<supermop>i don't like the new ones
14:44<supermop>they feel so 'big' in the handling
14:45<supermop>i wonder if the 1-series feels the same
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>the windshield is tiny... if you have any kind of comfortable seating position, you can't see any traffic lights
14:45<supermop>also the gearbox felt too sloppy
14:45<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, it's not a mini mini
14:46<dihedral>it's the countryman :-)
14:46<supermop>i'd prefer a real mini, not these bloated new ones
14:46<dihedral>i have my testdrive on monday
14:46<supermop>and definately not an suv
14:46<dihedral>cannot fit people on the backsears in the mini cooper
14:46<supermop>although i havent driven the suv
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i don't see how making a scaled up version of the same design changes the relative size of the windshield compared to the rest of the car...
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: in case you have missed some geometry lessons: if you just scale up the size, it doesn't change any angles.
14:50<dihedral>i'll see on monday
14:50<supermop>eddi, what do you drive?
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>a renault 19 most of the time...
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14:51<dihedral>i do not think they just scaled the model upwards
14:51<dihedral>even if they did - the seating position of the driver does not scale the same way due to some limitations of the human body :-P
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: i still have my doubts...
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15:05<Eddi|zuHause>cycles_found = this->EliminateCycles(path, node, node) || cycles_found; <-- am i wrong or can this be shortened to cycles_found |= this->EliminateCycles(path, node, node);?
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15:05<__ln__>eddi is wrong or it can be shortened?
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm... may be dangerous, if one expects side effects of the function
15:06<@SmatZ>in both cases the function will be called
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>sure? even if it is already true?
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>if you say so... i don't know these details...
15:07<@SmatZ>only && and || have "quick exit" semantics
15:07<dihedral>|= == || ?
15:08<@SmatZ>not at all
15:08<dihedral>i would have expected |= to be bitwise
15:08<dihedral>and || to be an OR
15:08<@SmatZ>|= is bitwise
15:08<@SmatZ>but it's a boolean
15:08<@SmatZ>maybe :)
15:08<dihedral>does not have to be
15:09<@SmatZ>it will make cycles_found == {0, 1}
15:09<dihedral>and cycles_found = resets the value of the var, and does not simply OR it
15:10<dihedral>e.g. if the method returns 5 ?
15:10<dihedral>c/c++ would probably complain
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>the variable is bool, yes
15:10<dihedral>other lanugages might now
15:10<@SmatZ>if it's a boo, it doesn't really matter
15:11<@SmatZ>booo :P
15:14<@planetmaker>to boo or not to boo?
15:17<MinchinWeb>does anyone have experience with NoAI?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>@topic get -3
15:18<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
15:18<dihedral>No "AI" don't :-P
15:19<MinchinWeb>very good :)
15:19<MinchinWeb>that's too bad - the update to 1.1 seems to make it so the AI can't get a list of available bridges
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>there have been lots of changes to AIList
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15:21<MinchinWeb>but breaking bridges is rather a pain
15:22<MinchinWeb>especially when it worked before
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you want to show us the code that does not work, instead of bitching around abstractly...
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>also, the AI forum may help you.
15:24<MinchinWeb>sure is there a pastebin somewhere on the site?
15:25<dihedral> will do
15:26<dihedral>or .ca or .org or ...
15:27<MinchinWeb>save this as info.nut
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15:29<MinchinWeb>save as main.nut
15:29<MinchinWeb>it will be listed as 'WmBasic' under the AI menu
15:30<xvd>I am using openttd 1.1.0, and it seems the option to allow mammoth trains is gone - followed by the inability to create trains longer than the normal amount (10-15)
15:30<dihedral>xvd, it changed, yes
15:30<dihedral>iirc it's a variable setting though
15:31<dihedral>have a look in your openttd.cfg, you'll probably find something suitable :-P
15:31<V453000>afaik there is a max train length in the actual gui??
15:31<xvd>yes, openttd.cfg still has mammoth_trains=true from earlier on - it's like it disappeared from the gui
15:32<@SmatZ>@commit 22004
15:32<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: Commit by rubidium :: r22004 /trunk/src (newgrf.cpp table/settings.h) (2011-02-06 21:31:33 UTC)
15:32<@DorpsGek>SmatZ: -Change [FS#4471]: always report mammoth trains are disabled to NewGRFs, and allow the maximum train length to be modified in multiplayer as well
15:32<dihedral>have a look for _other_ entries in the config
15:32<@SmatZ>xvd: openttd.cfg never looses invalid settings
15:32<xvd>hm newgrf
15:32<@SmatZ>so they are preserved when you use different openttd versions
15:32<dihedral>MinchinWeb, so you are talking about line 35 of your main.nut ;-)
15:33<xvd>I have no active NewGRFs
15:33<@SmatZ>hmm maybe that wasn't the correct commit
15:33<MinchinWeb>dihedral: yeah it breaks on line 35
15:33<xvd>Wait, are you saying the mammoth train feature moved to a newgrf? (Since there is a "Long vehicles v4" GRF under inactive GRFs)
15:34<@SmatZ>xvd: no, now you can select maximum train length instead
15:34<@SmatZ>in tiles
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15:34<dihedral>xvd: mamothtrains is gone! a new setting has taken it's place
15:34<dihedral>the new setting can be found in the config
15:34<dihedral>have a look for it
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15:34<xvd>found it :)
15:35<xvd>but there is indeed no GUI entry for max_train_length, right?
15:35<@SmatZ>there was one for mammoth_trains?
15:36<dihedral>iirc, yes
15:36<Wolf01>we could introduce a "removed settings due to cleanup" gui with ctrl+click on the advanced settings
15:37<@Alberth>just randomly remove one of the settings each time :p
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15:44<MinchinWeb>dihedral, they appear to have fixed a typo... lengTH but I didn't think I had a typo before...
15:45<dihedral>so it's all sorted then ;-) wonderful
15:47<MinchinWeb>there's a reason I took Engineering and not English... ;-)
15:48<dihedral>hehe :-)
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>xvd: there certainly is a gui entry
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16:12<fonsinchen>Oh, there's a width parameter to GfxDrawLine now.
16:12<fonsinchen>That's nice for the linkgraph overlay.
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17:07<dihedral>interesting - i restarted my router without znc being affected .. :-P
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18:27<xQR>is there anyone willing to explain a curious guy why since 1.1.0 map downloads seem to be so much faster? how did you optimized that? or has my line just suddenly improved? :P
18:27<@Yexo>maps are now compressed with lzma
18:28<xQR>-d btw
18:28<@Yexo>which makes them somewhat smaller
18:28<xQR>ah i c
18:28<xQR>"somewhat" lol - on our bigger server where the map usually is 2 MB the download time went down from 5 seconds to 0.5 seconds
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>also, the download starts earlier, because the beginning is sent before the server finished compressing all of it
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18:29<xQR>well the result is amazing, i must say
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm... when using, then in-wiki-links are broken
18:42<@SmatZ>don't use
18:42<@Yexo>hmm, that worked fine a few days ago
18:43*SmatZ apologises for the non-funny remark
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: all links miss the /wiki part
18:44<@Yexo>I can see that, now idea why it's broken though
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>and i can't find a wiki page explaining the transparency gui
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>hm... weird, if i go backwards in my cache, it seemed to have worked a few minutes ago even...
18:47<xQR> <-- interesting bug
18:48<xQR>when Luukland asked me whether i know that problem i told him i don't
18:48<xQR>but now i just set one of my servers to have a quite huge map
18:48<xQR>and tried to connect with 2 clients at the same time
18:48<xQR>and i can reproduce it
18:48<xQR>the second client is just thrown back to the main menu
18:48<xQR>if it tries to connect while the first one is still downloading the map
18:49<xQR>i guess the only reason why i haven't noticed it yet is that the map downloading is so fast now that it doesn't happen that much to have 2 people try to download the map at the same time
18:49<xQR>so i still think you did a great improvement there, but ofc that issue has to be fixed :>
18:52<xQR>let's see whether -d net=3 is giving some more information about what happens
18:58<xQR>not really - just shows me how the second connection is coming but then closed again immediately
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 07 00:00:46 2011