| --- | Log | opened Wed Apr 06 00:00:29 2011 |
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| 00:51 | <@planetmaker> | good morning |
| 00:51 | <@planetmaker> | thanks Eddi|zuHause for the FIRS translation hints. fixed now |
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| 00:55 | <supermop> | hello |
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| 02:37 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
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| 03:24 | <norbert79> | Good day |
| 03:27 | <dihedral> | good morning :-) |
| 03:29 | <dihedral> | planetmaker, ist there a screenshot of the titlegame that won the competition? |
| 03:29 | <@planetmaker> | Well... it's also in 1.1.0 ;-) - but yes, on the titlegame page |
| 03:29 | <@planetmaker> | http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/titlegame/ |
| 03:30 | <dihedral> | i am at work and did not want to start a game :-D |
| 03:30 | <@planetmaker> | pussy :-P |
| 03:32 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Question: http://wiki.openttd.org/Roadmap - Will this page be updated sometimes in the future? Been a while since last update :) |
| 03:32 | <@planetmaker> | hardly. There's no such thing as a road map really |
| 03:32 | <@planetmaker> | of course everyone is welcome to edit it for the existing versions |
| 03:32 | <@planetmaker> | it's a wiki. |
| 03:33 | <@Yexo> | not that page :) |
| 03:33 | <norbert79> | Agreee, that it isn't necessary too, but then I would suggest a huge REJECTED logo on it 45° degreed with huge big letters :) |
| 03:33 | <@Yexo> | all roadmap pages are locked, and for good reason |
| 03:33 | <dihedral> | hehe |
| 03:33 | <@planetmaker> | oh, they're locked? I didn't know that :-) |
| 03:33 | <dihedral> | what?? |
| 03:33 | * | andythenorth would like to put bananas changelog field on the roadmap |
| 03:33 | <andythenorth> | oh no |
| 03:33 | <dihedral> | c'mon - it's been like that for a long time pm ^^ |
| 03:33 | <andythenorth> | that means it would never happen :( |
| 03:34 | <@Yexo> | and we don't even have a roadmap 1.2 page |
| 03:34 | <dihedral> | but it's true, a roadmap would not really help ^^ |
| 03:34 | <dihedral> | \o/ |
| 03:34 | <norbert79> | -o/ |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | what's needed for a changelog? - a new django field, a new text panel in game? |
| 03:34 | <norbert79> | Oops, arm cut off |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | it might be useful to tie changelogs to specific versions |
| 03:35 | * | andythenorth isn't sure how bananas schema works |
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| 03:35 | <V453000> | holy cow, I think I found an openttd crashing thingy in 1.1.0 stable |
| 03:35 | * | planetmaker assignes bananas re-write to andy, including changelog field, multi-author access and what-not |
| 03:36 | <V453000> | also morning everyone :) |
| 03:36 | <@planetmaker> | moin v :-) |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | we're rewriting bananas? |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | oh I see |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | I'm rewriting bananas? |
| 03:36 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: that's what tb constantly claims needs doing |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | build a new one |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | in pyramid |
| 03:36 | <@planetmaker> | the db design and stuff |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | new framework fallacy :P |
| 03:37 | <V453000> | ah, well I was trying to click the "down" button quickly in openttd while downloading new content, and when I pressed it quickly several times, openttd crashed 2 times in a row ... does that have something to do with bananas and your work there or openttd? |
| 03:37 | <norbert79> | I prefer the upside down pyramid... It is a bigger challange |
| 03:37 | <andythenorth> | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4482879/is-pyramid-ready-recommended-for-prime-time |
| 03:37 | <@Yexo> | V453000: known and fixed in trunk |
| 03:38 | <V453000> | ok :) thanks |
| 03:38 | <@Yexo> | FS#4571 / fixed in r22294 |
| 03:38 | <norbert79> | So I assume 1.1.1 will appear soon :D |
| 03:39 | <@planetmaker> | I don't think that bug is serious enough to warrant a out-of-order release. But it will come for sure. |
| 03:39 | <V453000> | sure isnt, it just surprised me :p |
| 03:40 | <@planetmaker> | stable just means the relative bug count per line of could is or should be lower when compared to trunk ;-) |
| 03:40 | <@planetmaker> | s/line of could/line of code/ |
| 03:40 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Ooh, god, what possibilities... Starting a flame on stable and appearnt bug ammount :) |
| 03:40 | <norbert79> | :D |
| 03:41 | <norbert79> | But I don't want to pick up my trollface :D |
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| 03:41 | <norbert79> | Btw is it also this cloudy in Germany too planetmaker? Btw weather would be a nice idea in the game |
| 03:42 | <norbert79> | fog affecting trucks on half speed |
| 03:42 | <norbert79> | snow blocking trains |
| 03:42 | <norbert79> | etc |
| 03:42 | * | andythenorth thinks time to do something else |
| 03:43 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 03:43 | <andythenorth> | if we rewrote bananas |
| 03:43 | <andythenorth> | we could add 'mod down points' |
| 03:43 | <andythenorth> | for badly behaved grfs |
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| 03:44 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: Would be a good idea, yet just plain raitings would also do the trick |
| 03:44 | <norbert79> | since think about it, some GRF maker would see in an other GRF a competency and starts devoting it |
| 03:45 | <andythenorth> | ratings are bad |
| 03:45 | <andythenorth> | points against technical criteria are not |
| 03:46 | <norbert79> | same method, same results... And you guys have to all review all the GRF's and handle false statements on bad behaviour too |
| 03:46 | <norbert79> | which might turn out to be false |
| 03:46 | <norbert79> | same misery like handling GRF changed savegames |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | norbert79: describe a system to decide a rating (say between 0 and 5, with 5==highest)... |
| 03:47 | <norbert79> | No, I don't think that the rating system in itself makes any sense |
| 03:48 | <norbert79> | like you have B1.GRF which makes trains shiny, I have B2.GRF which turns trains into more shiny trains... Now you introduce one new feature, and I am in envy, and rate your GRF very bad, and ask 10 more people to do so |
| 03:48 | <norbert79> | while the GRF works perfectly |
| 03:48 | <norbert79> | Now think further :) |
| 03:48 | <andythenorth> | my proposal is for boolean mod-down points, on specific issues |
| 03:49 | <andythenorth> | nothing ever implies a grf is good |
| 03:49 | <andythenorth> | but if it has known problems for version x.y.z, that's indicated |
| 03:49 | <andythenorth> | e.g. known bugs |
| 03:49 | <andythenorth> | or it's not a final release |
| 03:49 | <norbert79> | No, rating should not be introduced at all, and leave up to people to decide what GRF to be downloaded and used... If some GRF won't be downloaded for like 2 years, then it can go |
| 03:50 | <andythenorth> | norbert79: what problem do you think I'm trying to solve? |
| 03:50 | <norbert79> | Avoiding GRFs on poor quality |
| 03:50 | <andythenorth> | and for why? |
| 03:50 | <norbert79> | For less headache, but ratings will just do the oppositew |
| 03:50 | <norbert79> | -w |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | less headache for who? |
| 03:51 | <norbert79> | since the results can be manipulated |
| 03:51 | <norbert79> | for OpenTTD dev team what else? |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | ok so here's the issue I see |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | currently most grfs on bananas are not 'done' |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | many are 'quite done' |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | some are probably broken |
| 03:52 | <norbert79> | Is OpenTTD finished? |
| 03:52 | <andythenorth> | because changing grfs in game breaks games, we've banned that |
| 03:52 | <norbert79> | that wasn't the best choice btw, but a reasonable |
| 03:52 | <norbert79> | But let me ask back: when will OpenTTD be finished? |
| 03:52 | <norbert79> | Don't answer |
| 03:52 | <andythenorth> | so now an unsuspecting bananas user downloads grf xyz, finds it has problems, and has to start over with a new game |
| 03:52 | <norbert79> | you cannot |
| 03:52 | <norbert79> | same goes for GRFs |
| 03:53 | <andythenorth> | that's kind of bollocks really isn't it |
| 03:53 | <andythenorth> | it's never 'finished', but there's a clear difference between a nightly, a pre-1.0 release, and a post 1.0 release |
| 03:54 | <norbert79> | Introduce then requirements and have a beta banana and a stable one, like with Debian... Set policies, where GRFs have to fit against, otherwise they go back to the beta pool... But ratings are like statistics, they can be easily manipulated... |
| 03:55 | <norbert79> | ratings will turn Bananas into a disaster |
| 03:55 | <andythenorth> | is the Debian policy system a disaster? |
| 03:55 | <dihedral> | bananas rewrite? |
| 03:55 | <dihedral> | you'd surely want it in python though, would you not? ^^ |
| 03:55 | <dihedral> | django ^^ |
| 03:55 | <andythenorth> | pyramid :P |
| 03:55 | <norbert79> | No, but no package goes into a pool just because it's being voted for that |
| 03:55 | <andythenorth> | norbert79: was voting mentioned? |
| 03:55 | <dihedral> | andythenorth, java servlets :-D |
| 03:56 | <norbert79> | Think about the fact, that with ratings new GRF developers will have no chance on releasing newly developed GRF's, and have less opportunity to spread their ideas, since older GRF's have 123456789 good votes and his only 2 |
| 03:56 | <andythenorth> | only on the assumption your making that the system includes voting |
| 03:56 | <norbert79> | Ok just one question so I can understand you right |
| 03:57 | <norbert79> | Would you leave rating to the users or the developers? |
| 03:57 | <andythenorth> | mods |
| 03:57 | <andythenorth> | same as forums etc |
| 03:57 | <andythenorth> | small number of people |
| 03:57 | <andythenorth> | we don't allow voting on commits |
| 03:57 | <norbert79> | Ok, then many of my comments are out of question |
| 03:57 | <@planetmaker> | I don't really want to judge the quality of the grfs users supply in an authorative way |
| 03:57 | <andythenorth> | ;) |
| 03:57 | <dihedral> | i'd not do rating at all to be honest |
| 03:58 | <@Yexo> | only letting a small number of users (devs/mods or not) vote is a bad idea |
| 03:58 | <dihedral> | letting anybody vote is a bad idea too ^^ |
| 03:58 | <@Yexo> | now if there was a clear set of rules and there only has to be a yes/no decision, that can be done by a small number of people |
| 03:58 | <andythenorth> | yes. |
| 03:58 | <andythenorth> | it's objective criteria |
| 03:58 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Well, I would also think fitting to specific requzirements would be a better solution too, like: 1.) does the GRF support latest stable (1.1.0) or works only with speciifc version - 1pt |
| 03:58 | <andythenorth> | I'm asking for fact, not opinion |
| 03:58 | <dihedral> | i think voting / rating will get in the way |
| 03:58 | <norbert79> | yeah, exactly |
| 03:58 | <andythenorth> | for example, it's fact whether a grf is savegame safe |
| 03:59 | <andythenorth> | it's fact whether it implements action 14 stuff or not |
| 03:59 | <dihedral> | authors might feel 'bashed' by bad rating and stop their work |
| 03:59 | <@planetmaker> | but there is no small set of rules. Or it'd require extensive review. Who's willing to do that? In an objective way? |
| 03:59 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: Ok then we are talking about the same method, just from different perspective |
| 03:59 | <dihedral> | which is a very bad side effect |
| 03:59 | <@Yexo> | norbert79: grfs can already have minimum and maximum version, so if it doesn't work in 1.1 just set the maximum version to 1.0 |
| 03:59 | <norbert79> | Yexo: One problem less then :) |
| 03:59 | <andythenorth> | players might feel bashed by an extensive number of grfs that break their games |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | hm... slovak language still broken |
| 04:00 | <andythenorth> | (if such an extensive number exists, I'm not sure actually) |
| 04:00 | <norbert79> | ands despite good generic rating GRF's can still cause issues |
| 04:00 | <dihedral> | that though is another problem - and voting / rating is not a good solution to that, andythenorth |
| 04:00 | <andythenorth> | there's no 'good' rating |
| 04:00 | <andythenorth> | just 'this grf has known problems' |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | well. Every grf has. As a matter of perspective |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | balancing ;-) |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | cross-grf "talk" |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | etc pp |
| 04:00 | <dihedral> | ^^ |
| 04:01 | <andythenorth> | well currently for a player, it's a total crap-shoot |
| 04:01 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Considering of course what was it made for, like Town names GRF's would not have too much issues, but it was more meant just to replace names, right? |
| 04:01 | <andythenorth> | they have barely any way of knowing what a grf is / does, what it's compatible with etc. |
| 04:01 | <andythenorth> | and once they commit to their game, that's it |
| 04:01 | <dihedral> | bananas provides a service for grf authors - which is in game deployment |
| 04:01 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: I can no problem combine evil-ism with town names |
| 04:01 | <dihedral> | it is the users choise which grf to get / install / use |
| 04:02 | <andythenorth> | but it's a hugely uninformed choice |
| 04:02 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Ok, maybe I had my sleep and haven't thought through that from a more evil perspective :D |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | there's no safe grf à priori |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: so is the use, of say, an app store |
| 04:02 | <andythenorth> | isn't the current situation equivalent to going to Youtube or whatever and clicking some buttons for 'some random videos that have nice sounding names'? |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | you just gotta know what to download |
| 04:02 | <andythenorth> | bad example :P |
| 04:03 | <andythenorth> | app stores have policies |
| 04:03 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Careful using the words app store, Apple might sue you :D |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: yes: conforms to broad standards |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | so does bananas have. |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | there are TOS, that's it. |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | No warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, including merchandisability or whatever |
| 04:03 | <andythenorth> | meh |
| 04:04 | <@planetmaker> | even your licenses say so :-P |
| 04:04 | <andythenorth> | an app store might have things including: useful descriptions, reviews, ratings, links to developer website, similar apps |
| 04:04 | <andythenorth> | bananas provides almost none of that |
| 04:04 | <@planetmaker> | so do newgrf descriptions |
| 04:04 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: App-Store BASIC! Just from OpenTTD for YOU! |
| 04:04 | <norbert79> | no need for the shiny things |
| 04:04 | <norbert79> | just what the player needs |
| 04:04 | <norbert79> | :) |
| 04:05 | <norbert79> | Yet for the downloader I would suggest having a : "Select all unselected" button, so I can easly download all missing GRF's :) |
| 04:06 | <norbert79> | Btw my OpenTTD got larger, now it is around 440 MB, having ALL GRFS included, even past versions, and all the binaries for all the OS |
| 04:06 | <@planetmaker> | that was not added on grounds of "choose explicitly" |
| 04:06 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: I see, well, I am a collector though, maybe I am just that 1% :) |
| 04:07 | <@planetmaker> | you aren't |
| 04:07 | <@planetmaker> | many do, I think. If we add that 99% would do :-P |
| 04:07 | <norbert79> | well I doubt that many users prefer the game having it portable, so running it within one directory only all the time :) |
| 04:08 | <@planetmaker> | and you usually don't need "all grfs". You need those for your next game. Thus... you know which you need ;-) |
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| 04:09 | <norbert79> | I just love to experiment, and have scenario developer also allowed, but I am not a regular user neither of course, so I know the risk :) |
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| 04:10 | <norbert79> | OpenTTD is something I always come back too, despite whatever game I am addicted to recently... |
| 04:11 | <dihedral> | i've not been adicted to (playing) a game for a long time |
| 04:13 | <norbert79> | But about the rating system, version control is included, so that's not required. I think different policies should be set for different purposed GRFs, like addon cars, then have a set of requirements behalf of that, but town names should have a shorter list, yet included that one question if the GRF does have sideeffects or not |
| 04:14 | <andythenorth> | I would keep to a minimal list of requirements |
| 04:14 | <andythenorth> | really |
| 04:15 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: tell us the truth :-) what is more annoying the support questions you got because someone fiddled around with newgrfs on running game or the questions now from people asking how to change newgrfs on running game? |
| 04:15 | <andythenorth> | 1. is this grf known to have serious problems, either on its own or due to its effect on other grfs |
| 04:16 | <andythenorth> | 2. is this grf considered reasonably complete? |
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| 04:16 | <andythenorth> | 3. does this grf implement various action 14 criteria? |
| 04:16 | <andythenorth> | 4. does this grf provide documentation, e.g. at least a useful description? |
| 04:16 | <norbert79> | andythenorth:1.) Oh, well, that's something hard to tell really, since consider the definiton of problems... Take for example having loaded two town names GRF's at the same time... But also consider, that this was each GRF had to be reviewed against all the others GRF's too to be able to answer that question... |
| 04:16 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: currently the people asking how to change newgrfs on a running game |
| 04:17 | <@Yexo> | however that is because many of them are used to that working, since it did in previous versions |
| 04:17 | <andythenorth> | norbert79: there's no box to tick to say 'this grf has *no* problems' |
| 04:17 | <norbert79> | 2.) Also hard to answer, but yet can be given a close answer behalf of it's goal and it's completiton |
| 04:17 | <@Yexo> | the older 1.0 gets, the less support requests we'll get about that |
| 04:17 | <andythenorth> | 2 can be deferred to the development team if they are active |
| 04:17 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: Agree, yet that 1st question in that current form might just brong up more problems, than answers answered... |
| 04:18 | <norbert79> | questions answered |
| 04:18 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: Like take one GRF with planes and trains replacement, and load Aviatiors GRF.. of course it will bring problems |
| 04:18 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: But it's none of the GRFs fault |
| 04:19 | <andythenorth> | why? |
| 04:19 | <Ammler> | and scenario_developer is a kind of insider, which you shouldn't share with newbies? |
| 04:19 | <norbert79> | cause the one already offers planes, because the GRF creator wanted to have like that |
| 04:19 | <norbert79> | so both work perfect, but together they don't, because it was nbever thought having them together... |
| 04:20 | <norbert79> | so on them own both work perfect... |
| 04:20 | <norbert79> | just one what-if scenario really |
| 04:20 | <Ammler> | I mean, that switch would solve the issue of those guys |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: in essence the scenario developer is a developer tool |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | Such not a setting which a newbie should activate |
| 04:21 | <norbert79> | a newbie would never look inside the cfg file anyway |
| 04:21 | <andythenorth> | norbert79: I thought that might be the case that killed question 1 :P |
| 04:21 | <andythenorth> | I'm not sure question 1 is a boolean answer |
| 04:21 | <Ammler> | people asking for editing newgrfs on running game aren't newbies, are they? |
| 04:21 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 04:21 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: Yeah, but does that really make one GRF not perfect? |
| 04:21 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: i REALLY DOUBT :) |
| 04:21 | <norbert79> | Oops |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: most are |
| 04:21 | <andythenorth> | norbert79: I think your point invalidates my question 1 |
| 04:21 | <andythenorth> | question 1 can't be meaningfully answered |
| 04:22 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: Indeed |
| 04:22 | <andythenorth> | what is more correct: a grf disables default vehicles, or leaves them? |
| 04:22 | <norbert79> | I would really modify it too like: No serious issues, like crashes full crash of a savegame and such |
| 04:22 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: Depends.. |
| 04:22 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 04:22 | <@Yexo> | if the grf provides a full set of vehicles it should disable the default ones |
| 04:22 | <norbert79> | Yexo: Exactly |
| 04:23 | <@Yexo> | there are multiple grfs around that can enable the default vehicles again for those who want that |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: is that an established community standard? |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | somewhat, yes |
| 04:23 | <norbert79> | So far yes, and I love this way too |
| 04:23 | <Ammler> | andythenorth: you still have default engine newgrf |
| 04:23 | <@Yexo> | yes, since before the engine pool all vehicle sets had no choice |
| 04:23 | <Ammler> | if you like "reenalbe" |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | is not disabling default vehicles a failure to meet a standard? |
| 04:23 | <norbert79> | no |
| 04:23 | <@Yexo> | not really |
| 04:23 | <norbert79> | not at all |
| 04:23 | <norbert79> | Take Aviators airfcraft set |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | so that one isn't something that could be boolean checked |
| 04:23 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 04:24 | <norbert79> | why would it make sense to have base planes and the additional ones too? |
| 04:24 | <andythenorth> | if I change a track tile to a non-track tile in a station set, I *will* break savegames |
| 04:24 | <andythenorth> | that is a problem |
| 04:24 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: So? |
| 04:24 | <andythenorth> | so it crashes the game, last I checked |
| 04:24 | <norbert79> | If you apply a GRF in a savegame, then you know the risk, this is why you removed the GRF modification in game |
| 04:24 | <andythenorth> | umm no |
| 04:25 | <norbert79> | yeah, partially |
| 04:25 | <andythenorth> | yeah maybe |
| 04:25 | <Ammler> | andythenorth: only if a train is at that station, afaik |
| 04:25 | <norbert79> | alright, not feeling skilled enough typing down tousands of lines in a flash :D |
| 04:25 | <andythenorth> | does bananas handle that case for me? |
| 04:25 | <andythenorth> | assuming same grfid, no action 14 |
| 04:26 | <andythenorth> | or does it just load the newer grf into my savegame? |
| 04:27 | <andythenorth> | if the latter, then it means you can download content from untrusted 3rd parties that can DoS your game |
| 04:27 | <andythenorth> | with no warning, even from a well-intentioned grf author |
| 04:27 | <@planetmaker> | no action14 means there's no newgrf version. It will take then a random one of those with the same grfID around |
| 04:27 | <andythenorth> | so potential DoS of my game... |
| 04:27 | <andythenorth> | and potential loss of user data |
| 04:27 | <@planetmaker> | (if the one used previously had no newgrf version either) |
| 04:27 | <andythenorth> | doesn't seem ideal |
| 04:28 | <@Yexo> | if you're going to make new requirements than having an action14 version could be one |
| 04:28 | <andythenorth> | I think action 14 is the broad solution to quite a few of the quality issues |
| 04:28 | <andythenorth> | I have been *strongly* encouraged to use action 14, I think that should be pursued further |
| 04:28 | <andythenorth> | especially now 1.1 is released |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | wrt savegame safety, and parameters, action 14 should be...not enforced...but highly encouraged |
| 04:29 | <@planetmaker> | well. grfcodec already complains, if it has no action14 |
| 04:29 | <@planetmaker> | or nforenum. Dunno which |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | there's no subjectivity to assessing the action 14 implementation is there |
| 04:29 | <andythenorth> | it's straightforward |
| 04:30 | <andythenorth> | it could even be done by bananas, if it could interpret the grf |
| 04:30 | <andythenorth> | no human needed (tm) |
| 04:31 | <@planetmaker> | well, it could. And it would put an end to the possibility to add old(er) newgrfs to bananas |
| 04:31 | <andythenorth> | you wouldn't prevent it |
| 04:31 | <andythenorth> | just raise a flag |
| 04:32 | <@planetmaker> | like max_openttd_version 0.7.0 ;-) |
| 04:32 | <andythenorth> | ho |
| 04:32 | <andythenorth> | depends how brutal you want to be :) |
| 04:32 | <@planetmaker> | then it could be downloaded, if needed (that's good), but not available for general download |
| 04:33 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 04:33 | * | andythenorth browses bananas |
| 04:33 | <andythenorth> | "Bauxite Waggon" raises an interesting case - read the description |
| 04:33 | <@planetmaker> | similar like all old versions can be downloaded, but are not generally available (anymore) |
| 04:34 | <@Yexo> | heh, why is that one not removed already? |
| 04:34 | <@Yexo> | who is the owner anyway? |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | removed? |
| 04:34 | <@Yexo> | please read the description in the online content window |
| 04:35 | <@Yexo> | "... (To whoever has the authority to do so: Please remove from Bananas)" |
| 04:35 | <andythenorth> | interesting case ;) |
| 04:35 | <@Yexo> | s/removed/set max version to 1.0 or so/ |
| 04:35 | <@planetmaker> | oberhümer obviously. Maybe no one told him to do so |
| 04:35 | <@planetmaker> | It's not the most obvious thing to do |
| 04:35 | <@Yexo> | indeed |
| 04:35 | <Ammler> | he asked here already and we told him how to hide it |
| 04:35 | <@planetmaker> | I'll write him |
| 04:36 | <Ammler> | or was that someone else |
| 04:36 | <@Yexo> | was about to, but I'll leave it to you |
| 04:37 | <@Yexo> | how up to date is the 2cc Chimaera addon? |
| 04:37 | <andythenorth> | another criteria: grf name contains typos |
| 04:37 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: and he should "restore" the description :-) |
| 04:37 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: who knows :P There's no useful description, no added date, no modified date etc |
| 04:37 | <Ammler> | Yexo: it is for 1.0 afaik |
| 04:37 | <andythenorth> | is the URL field even useful? Really? |
| 04:38 | <@Yexo> | so outdated and should not be available, since 2ccset 1.0 is not available either |
| 04:38 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: yes, via the webinterface |
| 04:38 | <andythenorth> | ah ok |
| 04:39 | <Ammler> | Yexo: let me check, if it is on the shared account |
| 04:39 | <andythenorth> | "no description" should be a boolean quality criteria. It's objective |
| 04:39 | <Ammler> | it isn't |
| 04:39 | <@Yexo> | what about "Arctic Remove SNOW"? A grf like that can only work properly with either original base graphics or OpenGFX, but it doesn't mention either in the description |
| 04:40 | <@planetmaker> | Yexo: but the chimeara add-on can be used on its own. E.g. with a non-maglev trainset |
| 04:40 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: BaseMod 3.0 and BaseMod 3.2 are both available for download |
| 04:40 | <@planetmaker> | ho |
| 04:40 | <@planetmaker> | av8 |
| 04:41 | <Ammler> | Yexo: so you have multiple versions allowed? |
| 04:41 | <@Yexo> | they're available for download in the online content window |
| 04:41 | <Ammler> | elese those would need different entries |
| 04:41 | <@Yexo> | you can't enable multiple versions there |
| 04:41 | <@planetmaker> | ex's citybuilder |
| 04:41 | <Ammler> | hmm, so how is that possible? |
| 04:41 | <Ammler> | (not necessary) |
| 04:42 | <@Yexo> | hmm, in the webinterface there is only 1 BaseMod newgrf |
| 04:42 | <norbert79> | Back... |
| 04:42 | <Ammler> | Yexo: there is a BaseMod Presets |
| 04:42 | <@planetmaker> | lumbermill |
| 04:42 | <Ammler> | maybe you confused with that |
| 04:42 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: there's 2x Base Costs and 1x BaseMod presets |
| 04:43 | <@Yexo> | ^^ not confused with the presets one |
| 04:43 | <Ammler> | well, you are the bananas experts, tell me why :-) |
| 04:43 | <norbert79> | If you don't enable multiple versions to a mod, how are you able to remove an older version of a savegame, on which you have worked on for months and replacing it with a newer version,s ince you lost the older version? |
| 04:43 | <Ammler> | version 3.0 and 3.2 have same id and same bananas entry |
| 04:44 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: download the missing grfs from the file load dialogue |
| 04:44 | <andythenorth> | norbert79: edge case? |
| 04:44 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: ? |
| 04:44 | <@planetmaker> | like download from the MP join lobby works for older newgrfs |
| 04:44 | <@Yexo> | norbert79: make sure not to lose newgrfs, just like you make sure not to lose that scenario? |
| 04:44 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: interesting... |
| 04:44 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Ah, right, new feature in 1.1.0 probably, haven't reviewed latest version in that depth |
| 04:44 | <@Yexo> | it also worked that way in 1.0 ;) |
| 04:45 | <norbert79> | Yexo: Probably, but I haven't had such an issue for a long time :) |
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| 04:45 | <andythenorth> | edge case :P |
| 04:45 | <norbert79> | Yexo: Lost a track a bit to OpenTTD since I got addicted to a different game :) |
| 04:46 | <Ammler> | also openttd version requirement are for both the same (0.7.2) |
| 04:47 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: Yexo, IMO it is simply, you have enabled multiversion and 3.0 is already in your local repo |
| 04:47 | <andythenorth> | should town names be sub-classed? |
| 04:47 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: I just disabled that setting |
| 04:47 | * | Ammler starts his own openttd then :-P |
| 04:47 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: multiversion is disabled and I don't have either 3.0 or 3.2 locally |
| 04:47 | <@planetmaker> | ... |
| 04:48 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: only if vehicle sets (perhaps per vehicle type) and industry sets are subclassed too |
| 04:48 | <Ammler> | there would also be a version 3.1, which isn't there |
| 04:48 | <andythenorth> | how many classes needed? |
| 04:48 | <Ammler> | that is really strange |
| 04:48 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 04:48 | <@planetmaker> | is it a coop grf? |
| 04:48 | <andythenorth> | classes would broadly match to feature bytes in nfo... |
| 04:48 | <@Yexo> | indeed |
| 04:48 | <norbert79> | maybe the developer never released 3.1 |
| 04:49 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: they're indicated incompatible |
| 04:49 | <@planetmaker> | 3.2 is only compatible to itself |
| 04:49 | <@planetmaker> | thus it makes sense... |
| 04:49 | <@Yexo> | not really |
| 04:49 | <andythenorth> | tags aren't working ideally |
| 04:49 | <@planetmaker> | yes. |
| 04:50 | <@planetmaker> | no minv = compatible to version itself, nothing more |
| 04:50 | <@Yexo> | so? 3.0 should only be available for people that already have 3.0 in a savegame / on a server, not for general download |
| 04:50 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: I already told you that that is wrong, so I can't fix that |
| 04:50 | <Ammler> | default should be version 0 |
| 04:50 | <@Yexo> | no, definitely not |
| 04:50 | <@planetmaker> | but... then there should be 3.1, too |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | he |
| 04:51 | <Ammler> | you have again used the wrong value as default, you are known for such mistakes :-P |
| 04:51 | <andythenorth> | we can't work it out....how should players? :D |
| 04:51 | <@Yexo> | planetmaker: think FIRS, there are multiple incompatible versions on bananas but only 1 shows as possible download |
| 04:51 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: still, set max_openttd_version to 1.0 or so |
| 04:51 | <@Yexo> | Ammler: strongly disagree, if you really want compatibility from version 0 you have to think about that and actually set it |
| 04:51 | <@planetmaker> | ^^ |
| 04:52 | <Ammler> | planetmaker: it doesn't have vmin set at all, afaik |
| 04:52 | <@planetmaker> | yes. |
| 04:52 | <Ammler> | that is the issue, isn't? |
| 04:52 | <@Yexo> | yes |
| 04:52 | <@Yexo> | no vmin -> vmin = vcurrent |
| 04:52 | <@planetmaker> | not sure. I don't see 3.1 available |
| 04:52 | <@Yexo> | neither do I |
| 04:52 | <@planetmaker> | *not sure that's the issue |
| 04:53 | <@Yexo> | it isn't, bananas doesn't check the a14 IIRC |
| 04:53 | <Ammler> | I upload a new version with vmin 0, then we see? |
| 04:53 | <@planetmaker> | it does not afaik, indeed |
| 04:53 | <@planetmaker> | Ammler: just for that sake? |
| 04:53 | <@planetmaker> | not worth |
| 04:53 | <Ammler> | yes, why else? |
| 04:53 | <@planetmaker> | first edit the max version of 3.0 :-P |
| 04:53 | <Ammler> | [10:51] <planetmaker> Ammler: still, set max_openttd_version to 1.0 or so <-- didn't you mean that? |
| 04:54 | <@planetmaker> | oh, yes |
| 04:54 | <@planetmaker> | let's re-check |
| 04:55 | <@planetmaker> | hm, no change |
| 04:55 | <Ammler> | 3.0 has no a14 |
| 04:56 | <Ammler> | 3.1 and 3.2 have |
| 04:56 | <Ammler> | so there is a difference between no a14 and a14 without mver maybe? |
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| 04:58 | <dihedral> | hello Ammler :-) |
| 04:58 | <@planetmaker> | maybe, yes |
| 04:59 | <dihedral> | maybe hello? :-P |
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| 05:06 | <@planetmaker> | dihedral: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/152/ ;-) |
| 05:06 | <@planetmaker> | of course the error is right. But should it crash? |
| 05:07 | <dihedral> | no, should not :-) should exit cleanly :-D |
| 05:08 | <dihedral> | bug report? :-P |
| 05:08 | * | dihedral chuckles |
| 05:08 | <dihedral> | in fact, i would rather it created the file instead ^^ |
| 05:09 | <@planetmaker> | that's what I hoped it'd do. |
| 05:09 | <@planetmaker> | Inventing a cfg file from scratch is... interesting, if you don't know the exact format ;-) |
| 05:09 | <@planetmaker> | nor the items it should contain |
| 05:09 | <Ammler> | hmm, hello dih :-) |
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| 05:13 | <dihedral> | planetmaker, touch grapes.cfg ;-) |
| 05:13 | <dihedral> | the rest it will do for you |
| 05:13 | <@planetmaker> | dihedral: I know ;-) |
| 05:13 | <dihedral> | yes yes :-D |
| 05:13 | <dihedral> | i'll fix it ;-) |
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| 05:16 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 05:20 | <MinchinWeb> | One thing that I think would be useful with the in-game Bananas screen is a way to copy/open the URL listed |
| 05:20 | <MinchinWeb> | most of them are to the TT-Forums site, and I don't want to type 9-odd random numbers and hope I get it right... |
| 05:20 | <@Yexo> | opening a browser is non-trivial to implement cross-platform |
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| 05:21 | <MinchinWeb> | could you make the text selectable somehow? |
| 05:21 | <MinchinWeb> | (copy and paste yourself to the webbrowser) |
| 05:22 | <@Yexo> | not sure how easy the clipboard is too support |
| 05:22 | <@Yexo> | perhaps it's already supported, I don't know |
| 05:22 | <Ammler> | on windows only, if |
| 05:22 | <@planetmaker> | pasting from clipboard is |
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| 05:22 | <Ammler> | ok, maybe mac too then ;-) |
| 05:22 | <Ammler> | but for sure not with sdl |
| 05:22 | <@planetmaker> | also linux |
| 05:23 | <Ammler> | :-o |
| 05:23 | <Ammler> | since? |
| 05:23 | <@planetmaker> | but linux has more than one clipboard. Not sure each... |
| 05:23 | <@Yexo> | it is? how does it work |
| 05:23 | <@planetmaker> | ctrl+v pastes iirc |
| 05:23 | <@Yexo> | I can't get that to paste anything |
| 05:23 | <@planetmaker> | hm |
| 05:24 | <Ammler> | I know, it works on windows |
| 05:24 | <Ammler> | never was able to c&p on linux |
| 05:24 | <@planetmaker> | also on osx. I can't test linux right now |
| 05:24 | <Ammler> | that is why I "asked" for the command option -p |
| 05:25 | <MinchinWeb> | well I can't figure out how to select the text on Windows... |
| 05:25 | <@planetmaker> | I only know that pasting into openttd works. Not sure marking and copying works |
| 05:27 | <MinchinWeb> | Perhaps if you could get to the support page easily from the Online Content Form, many of the issues andy et al. were discussing would be less of an issue... |
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| 05:34 | <norbert79> | About Copy paste: Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins is one clipboard imho and Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V is the other |
| 05:35 | <norbert79> | sometimes both work to the same clipboard, sometimes those are seperated |
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| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | assuming url / copy and paste are out of the question.... |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | url shortening service for bananas? |
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| 06:20 | <andythenorth> | openttd.org/go/abc123 |
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| 06:33 | <andythenorth> | how many versions of how many grfs do we expect? |
| 06:33 | <andythenorth> | @calc 26 * 26 * 26 |
| 06:33 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 17576 |
| 06:33 | <andythenorth> | we could use a three letter code |
| 06:33 | <andythenorth> | a-z only, case insensitive |
| 06:34 | <andythenorth> | if we top out, add another letter :P |
| 06:34 | <andythenorth> | just make the string matching sufficiently smart |
| 06:34 | * | planetmaker doesn't really see much use in url-shortener |
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| 06:34 | <andythenorth> | I thought of it as a sticking plaster |
| 06:34 | <norbert79> | but don't end up like other game providers having an usrl of http://Iamcoolgame.com/something/a/x/p/l/o/m/almostthere/g/j/l/notquiet/something123456789.grf |
| 06:34 | <andythenorth> | but it's the same sticking plaster as tinyurl |
| 06:35 | <andythenorth> | tinyurl is....not unpopular |
| 06:35 | <dihedral> | i see no point in such a thing either |
| 06:35 | <norbert79> | me neither... Not necessary |
| 06:35 | <norbert79> | imho |
| 06:35 | <andythenorth> | so lets delete the url field from bananas then |
| 06:35 | <dihedral> | overkill |
| 06:35 | <norbert79> | no, URL field can be sueful |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | the usability of the current field tends towards zero |
| 06:36 | <dihedral> | the url field is to link to their website, the forums or whatnot |
| 06:36 | <dihedral> | the author does that, not bananas |
| 06:36 | <norbert79> | since when I want to work on a GRF but vcan't start the game in work :) |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | the url field has severe usability issues |
| 06:36 | <@planetmaker> | you never look here, andythenorth http://bananas.openttd.org/en/ ? |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | two of the possible fixes are unavailable to us |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: that is of no use in game |
| 06:36 | <andythenorth> | how does it help? |
| 06:36 | <@planetmaker> | you just enter the URL to your project, and the list is comprehensive. No need for any shortening or so |
| 06:36 | <norbert79> | andythenorth: But outside of the game |
| 06:37 | <dihedral> | bananas is not just 'in game' ;-) |
| 06:37 | <andythenorth> | how do you know the url to your project? |
| 06:37 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: you know the one of yours? You entered it |
| 06:37 | <dihedral> | ...? |
| 06:37 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 06:37 | <norbert79> | ?? |
| 06:37 | <dihedral> | oh dear :-P |
| 06:37 | <@planetmaker> | ? |
| 06:37 | <andythenorth> | but the player doesn't author projects |
| 06:37 | <andythenorth> | we cross talk :D |
| 06:37 | <dihedral> | planetmaker, you caused havok :-P |
| 06:37 | <dihedral> | you started it all ^^ |
| 06:38 | <dihedral> | andythenorth, bananas is not just a "players" thing |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | I think it's barely a players thing at the moment at all |
| 06:38 | <dihedral> | oh boy |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | it's just a big black box |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | ach |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | my solution is good |
| 06:38 | <andythenorth> | might be unneeded |
| 06:38 | <@planetmaker> | black box is different ;-) |
| 06:39 | <andythenorth> | but it's not bad |
| 06:39 | <@planetmaker> | But the URL things needing a change... I don't see why ;-) |
| 06:39 | <dihedral> | your solution does not match the requirements layed down for bananas in the first place :-P |
| 06:39 | <andythenorth> | got to to out - I'll explain later ;) |
| 06:39 | <andythenorth> | keep your arguments fresh :) |
| 06:39 | <dihedral> | hihi |
| 06:39 | * | dihedral puts his arguments in the fridge |
| 06:40 | <norbert79> | watch for the expiry date :) |
| 06:40 | * | dihedral freezes boiling water |
| 06:40 | <dihedral> | you never know when you need boiling water ^^ |
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| 06:41 | <norbert79> | Good point! :) |
| 06:41 | <norbert79> | :D |
| 06:42 | <norbert79> | while I guess it's possible somehow, since water boiles on a lower temperature under presure |
| 06:42 | <norbert79> | so I guess reaching that critical pressure might indeed allow freezing boiling water :)) |
| 06:43 | <norbert79> | oh, wait, it's the other way around |
| 06:43 | <norbert79> | what about boiling freezing water? |
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| 06:49 | <@planetmaker> | it's called triple-point |
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| 07:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | err... just because it's in gaseous form doesn't mean it's actually boiling. |
| 07:05 | <dihedral> | same with sucking air out of it ^^ |
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| 07:29 | * | andythenorth boils freezing soup |
| 07:29 | <andythenorth> | and feeds it to the baby |
| 07:30 | <andythenorth> | what is the purpose, in game, of displaying the url field for a newgrf |
| 07:30 | <andythenorth> | in content download window |
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| 07:30 | <andythenorth> | ]? |
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| 07:34 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, it may not be convenient, but it is of use IMHO |
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| 07:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: in the random german town names, i think the suffixes -kirch and -kirchen appear too often |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | 0.1.0? |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | generally all suffixes are equally likely. But kirch / kirchen are two, thus it may appear as double probability if looked at jointly |
| 07:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, that's what i mean |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | Also I'll not be unhappy about additional suggestions for pre- and suffixes ;-) |
| 07:48 | <norbert79> | This only shows how religious germans are :P |
| 07:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: i'm quite impressed overall, it sounds much more natural than the builtin ones ;) |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | thanks :-) |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | there are combinations which "holpern", but... ironing out those is exponentially more work ;-) |
| 07:49 | <norbert79> | Yexo: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53934 - Looks like having FUN... I guess despite it's in the readme and FAQ, noone is interested in reading :) |
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| 08:21 | <dihedral> | planetmaker, Bad, Schein (esp. fun with the town named 'Heilig' or 'Werfer') ... :-D |
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| 08:26 | <norbert79> | dihedral: Sounds weird though if it begins with Nebel and ends with Werfer :D |
| 08:27 | <dihedral> | ingen is also a nice suffix ^^ |
| 08:29 | <@planetmaker> | Bad is of course included as prefix. |
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| 08:44 | <dihedral> | planetmaker, how about 'i' |
| 08:44 | <dihedral> | :-D |
| 08:45 | <dihedral> | iPlochingen iBonn iBerlin |
| 08:45 | <@planetmaker> | :-P |
| 08:45 | <dihedral> | and suffix 2.0 :-P |
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| 08:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | AHH... MY EYES... i opened a JPG! |
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| 09:09 | <__ln__> | iHello |
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| 09:16 | <@Belugas> | hello |
| 09:18 | <MinchinWeb> | hello :à |
| 09:18 | <MinchinWeb> | :) |
| 09:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "Scientists! Investigate!" - "But we're playing Minecraft!" :p |
| 09:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | now i need to investigate what a jelly bean actually is... |
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| 10:43 | <__ln__> | supermop: thanks |
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| 11:06 | <supermop> | hm? |
| 11:08 | <@planetmaker> | <__ln__> ummm.. what is an idiomatic way to say "to my luck, and to unluck of someone else ..." in english? 'unluck' is not a real word. |
| 11:08 | <@planetmaker> | <supermop> misfortune <-- reference probably |
| 11:20 | <supermop> | ah |
| 11:20 | <supermop> | but that was yesterday |
| 11:21 | <@planetmaker> | IRC is not necessarily concurrent conversation ;-) |
| 11:22 | <supermop> | i mean, no need to thank me |
| 11:22 | <@planetmaker> | or real-time is the better word than concurrent |
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| 11:27 | <supermop> | brought my .psd file into work today |
| 11:27 | <@planetmaker> | bad boy. Good boy. Depends on view, I guess ;-) |
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| 11:36 | <supermop> | realized that the modules on rear of the shaft will never be seen, which lets me cut out 25% of the possible variations i need to plan for |
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| 12:41 | <flitz> | hi |
| 12:41 | <@planetmaker> | hi flitz |
| 12:41 | <flitz> | i've got a question :) |
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| 12:42 | <@planetmaker> | @topic get -3 |
| 12:42 | <@DorpsGek> | planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask |
| 12:42 | <@planetmaker> | ;-) |
| 12:43 | <XeryusTC> | planetmaker: that is not asking to ask ;) |
| 12:43 | <supermop> | its "telling to ask" |
| 12:43 | <supermop> | or maybe warning |
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| 12:43 | <flitz> | I've added a boolean value to the group struct but I can't get it to be set false by default. I set it false in the constructor and set it also false in the CmdCreateGroup function, but whatever, a newly created group in the game will have this bool set to 1 |
| 12:43 | <@planetmaker> | "lo and behold: incoming question. Take cover. Now!"? |
| 12:44 | <XeryusTC> | yes :P |
| 12:44 | <flitz> | so, question: how ? |
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| 12:44 | <@SmatZ> | flitz: set a data breakpoint in gdb |
| 12:44 | <@SmatZ> | but I think you are doing something wrongly |
| 12:45 | <@SmatZ> | like, the variable is "false", but you are reading it incorrectly |
| 12:45 | <@SmatZ> | but you for some reason think it's "true", but it's in fact false |
| 12:45 | <@SmatZ> | eg., error in measurement technique |
| 12:45 | <flitz> | well, writing this->mybool=false; in the constructor and I test it by printf("%d\n",mybool); and wait for it to output 0 ;) |
| 12:46 | <@SmatZ> | can you upload the diff to trunk somewhere? |
| 12:46 | <@SmatZ> | (prefer this->mybool) |
| 12:47 | <@SmatZ> | or you might be reading some other (local) mybool |
| 12:47 | <flitz> | hm, its a whole lot of stuff regarding the template replacement |
| 12:48 | <flitz> | i've also written a function that takes a group_id and sets this bool regarding this id. when I call this function from the CmdCreateGroup(...) its not working, but when I call it from elsewhere it does |
| 12:48 | <flitz> | I also checked and it is always called for the right groupid |
| 12:49 | <flitz> | my assumption was that I didn't know of some routine that gets called when a new group is created or something like that |
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| 12:50 | <@planetmaker> | <SmatZ> can you upload the diff to trunk somewhere? <-- ;-) or all discussion about what you do as opposed to intending to do is quite crystal ball reading |
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| 12:59 | <flitz> | or all discussion about what you do as opposed to intending to do is quite crystal ball reading <-- I pretty much told you everything I do, its one single line in the constructor basically ;) |
| 13:00 | <flitz> | upon group creation, the bool is set false as intented, but it is changed without me interfering somehow until a vehicle in this group arrives in the next depot, that is what is puzzling me, because I didn't change a thing about this |
| 13:00 | <frosch123> | all pool items are zero-initialised |
| 13:00 | <frosch123> | so you do not even need the stuff in the constructor |
| 13:01 | <@SmatZ> | planetmaker: hehe, yeah :) |
| 13:04 | <@SmatZ> | flitz: try setting the data breakpoint, you are probably doing something wrong |
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| 13:27 | <supermop> | ok time to get lunch |
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| 14:33 | <dihedral> | # i wonder how and i wonder why ... |
| 14:35 | <@Belugas> | # I wonder what tomorrow has ahead for me |
| 14:35 | <dihedral> | WORK :-P |
| 14:36 | * | dihedral hides |
| 14:36 | <@Belugas> | #or if i'm even in his mind at all |
| 14:36 | <dihedral> | whenever i hear your music you sort of are :-P |
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| 14:36 | <@Belugas> | # sometimes i sit and gaze through sleepless dreams |
| 14:37 | <@Belugas> | hehehe |
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| 14:38 | <dihedral> | http://www.autoevolution.com/images/news/ac-schnitzer-touches-the-mini-countryman-30412_1.jpg <- oh yeah :-) |
| 14:38 | <dihedral> | nice "little" car :-) |
| 14:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i drove a mini for a week, it's totally bad... |
| 14:43 | <supermop> | i don't like the new ones |
| 14:44 | <supermop> | they feel so 'big' in the handling |
| 14:45 | <supermop> | i wonder if the 1-series feels the same |
| 14:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the windshield is tiny... if you have any kind of comfortable seating position, you can't see any traffic lights |
| 14:45 | <supermop> | also the gearbox felt too sloppy |
| 14:45 | <dihedral> | Eddi|zuHause, it's not a mini mini |
| 14:46 | <dihedral> | it's the countryman :-) |
| 14:46 | <supermop> | i'd prefer a real mini, not these bloated new ones |
| 14:46 | <dihedral> | i have my testdrive on monday |
| 14:46 | <supermop> | and definately not an suv |
| 14:46 | <dihedral> | cannot fit people on the backsears in the mini cooper |
| 14:46 | <supermop> | although i havent driven the suv |
| 14:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | dihedral: i don't see how making a scaled up version of the same design changes the relative size of the windshield compared to the rest of the car... |
| 14:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | dihedral: in case you have missed some geometry lessons: if you just scale up the size, it doesn't change any angles. |
| 14:48 | <dihedral> | :-P |
| 14:50 | <dihedral> | i'll see on monday |
| 14:50 | <supermop> | eddi, what do you drive? |
| 14:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a renault 19 most of the time... |
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| 14:51 | <dihedral> | i do not think they just scaled the model upwards |
| 14:51 | <dihedral> | even if they did - the seating position of the driver does not scale the same way due to some limitations of the human body :-P |
| 14:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | dihedral: i still have my doubts... |
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| 15:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | cycles_found = this->EliminateCycles(path, node, node) || cycles_found; <-- am i wrong or can this be shortened to cycles_found |= this->EliminateCycles(path, node, node);? |
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| 15:05 | <@SmatZ> | yes |
| 15:05 | <__ln__> | eddi is wrong or it can be shortened? |
| 15:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... may be dangerous, if one expects side effects of the function |
| 15:05 | <@SmatZ> | yes |
| 15:06 | <@SmatZ> | in both cases the function will be called |
| 15:06 | <dihedral> | method |
| 15:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | sure? even if it is already true? |
| 15:06 | <@SmatZ> | yes |
| 15:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you say so... i don't know these details... |
| 15:07 | <@SmatZ> | only && and || have "quick exit" semantics |
| 15:07 | <dihedral> | |= == || ? |
| 15:08 | <@SmatZ> | not at all |
| 15:08 | <dihedral> | i would have expected |= to be bitwise |
| 15:08 | <dihedral> | and || to be an OR |
| 15:08 | <@SmatZ> | |= is bitwise |
| 15:08 | <@SmatZ> | but it's a boolean |
| 15:08 | <@SmatZ> | maybe :) |
| 15:08 | <dihedral> | does not have to be |
| 15:09 | <@SmatZ> | true |
| 15:09 | <@SmatZ> | it will make cycles_found == {0, 1} |
| 15:09 | <dihedral> | and cycles_found = resets the value of the var, and does not simply OR it |
| 15:10 | <dihedral> | e.g. if the method returns 5 ? |
| 15:10 | <dihedral> | c/c++ would probably complain |
| 15:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the variable is bool, yes |
| 15:10 | <dihedral> | other lanugages might now |
| 15:10 | <dihedral> | *not |
| 15:10 | <dihedral> | ok |
| 15:10 | <dihedral> | :-P |
| 15:10 | <@SmatZ> | if it's a boo, it doesn't really matter |
| 15:11 | <@SmatZ> | booo :P |
| 15:14 | <@planetmaker> | to boo or not to boo? |
| 15:15 | <dihedral> | :-P |
| 15:17 | <MinchinWeb> | does anyone have experience with NoAI? |
| 15:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no. |
| 15:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @topic get -3 |
| 15:18 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask |
| 15:18 | <dihedral> | No "AI" don't :-P |
| 15:19 | <MinchinWeb> | very good :) |
| 15:19 | <MinchinWeb> | that's too bad - the update to 1.1 seems to make it so the AI can't get a list of available bridges |
| 15:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | there have been lots of changes to AIList |
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| 15:21 | <MinchinWeb> | but breaking bridges is rather a pain |
| 15:22 | <MinchinWeb> | especially when it worked before |
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| 15:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe you want to show us the code that does not work, instead of bitching around abstractly... |
| 15:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, the AI forum may help you. |
| 15:24 | <MinchinWeb> | sure is there a pastebin somewhere on the site? |
| 15:25 | <dihedral> | pastebin.com will do |
| 15:26 | <dihedral> | or .ca or .org or ... |
| 15:27 | <MinchinWeb> | save this as info.nut http://pastebin.com/wrhA5YVy |
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| 15:29 | <MinchinWeb> | save as main.nut http://pastebin.com/kJQ2szTQ |
| 15:29 | <MinchinWeb> | it will be listed as 'WmBasic' under the AI menu |
| 15:30 | <xvd> | I am using openttd 1.1.0, and it seems the option to allow mammoth trains is gone - followed by the inability to create trains longer than the normal amount (10-15) |
| 15:30 | <dihedral> | xvd, it changed, yes |
| 15:30 | <dihedral> | iirc it's a variable setting though |
| 15:31 | <dihedral> | have a look in your openttd.cfg, you'll probably find something suitable :-P |
| 15:31 | <V453000> | afaik there is a max train length in the actual gui?? |
| 15:31 | <xvd> | yes, openttd.cfg still has mammoth_trains=true from earlier on - it's like it disappeared from the gui |
| 15:32 | <@SmatZ> | @commit 22004 |
| 15:32 | <@DorpsGek> | SmatZ: Commit by rubidium :: r22004 /trunk/src (newgrf.cpp table/settings.h) (2011-02-06 21:31:33 UTC) |
| 15:32 | <@DorpsGek> | SmatZ: -Change [FS#4471]: always report mammoth trains are disabled to NewGRFs, and allow the maximum train length to be modified in multiplayer as well |
| 15:32 | <dihedral> | have a look for _other_ entries in the config |
| 15:32 | <@SmatZ> | xvd: openttd.cfg never looses invalid settings |
| 15:32 | <xvd> | hm newgrf |
| 15:32 | <@SmatZ> | so they are preserved when you use different openttd versions |
| 15:32 | <dihedral> | MinchinWeb, so you are talking about line 35 of your main.nut ;-) |
| 15:33 | <xvd> | I have no active NewGRFs |
| 15:33 | <dihedral> | .... |
| 15:33 | <@SmatZ> | hmm maybe that wasn't the correct commit |
| 15:33 | <MinchinWeb> | dihedral: yeah it breaks on line 35 |
| 15:33 | <xvd> | Wait, are you saying the mammoth train feature moved to a newgrf? (Since there is a "Long vehicles v4" GRF under inactive GRFs) |
| 15:34 | <@SmatZ> | xvd: no, now you can select maximum train length instead |
| 15:34 | <@SmatZ> | in tiles |
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| 15:34 | <dihedral> | xvd: mamothtrains is gone! a new setting has taken it's place |
| 15:34 | <dihedral> | the new setting can be found in the config |
| 15:34 | <dihedral> | have a look for it |
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| 15:34 | <xvd> | found it :) |
| 15:34 | <dihedral> | congrats |
| 15:34 | <dihedral> | :-P |
| 15:35 | <xvd> | but there is indeed no GUI entry for max_train_length, right? |
| 15:35 | <@SmatZ> | there was one for mammoth_trains? |
| 15:36 | <dihedral> | iirc, yes |
| 15:36 | <Wolf01> | we could introduce a "removed settings due to cleanup" gui with ctrl+click on the advanced settings |
| 15:36 | <dihedral> | :-D |
| 15:37 | <@Alberth> | just randomly remove one of the settings each time :p |
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| 15:44 | <MinchinWeb> | dihedral, they appear to have fixed a typo... lengTH but I didn't think I had a typo before... |
| 15:45 | <dihedral> | so it's all sorted then ;-) wonderful |
| 15:47 | <MinchinWeb> | there's a reason I took Engineering and not English... ;-) |
| 15:48 | <dihedral> | hehe :-) |
| 15:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | xvd: there certainly is a gui entry |
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| 16:12 | <fonsinchen> | Oh, there's a width parameter to GfxDrawLine now. |
| 16:12 | <fonsinchen> | That's nice for the linkgraph overlay. |
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| 17:06 | <@planetmaker> | g'night |
| 17:06 | <dihedral> | @logs |
| 17:06 | <@DorpsGek> | dihedral: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd |
| 17:07 | <dihedral> | interesting - i restarted my router without znc being affected .. :-P |
| 17:10 | <SpComb> | supposedly |
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| 17:14 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 17:42 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 18:27 | <xQR> | is there anyone willing to explain a curious guy why since 1.1.0 map downloads seem to be so much faster? how did you optimized that? or has my line just suddenly improved? :P |
| 18:27 | <@Yexo> | maps are now compressed with lzma |
| 18:28 | <xQR> | -d btw |
| 18:28 | <@Yexo> | which makes them somewhat smaller |
| 18:28 | <xQR> | ah i c |
| 18:28 | <xQR> | "somewhat" lol - on our bigger server where the map usually is 2 MB the download time went down from 5 seconds to 0.5 seconds |
| 18:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, the download starts earlier, because the beginning is sent before the server finished compressing all of it |
| 18:29 | <xQR> | ok |
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| 18:29 | <xQR> | well the result is amazing, i must say |
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| 18:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... when using secure.openttd.org/wiki, then in-wiki-links are broken |
| 18:42 | <@SmatZ> | don't use secure.openttd.org/wiki |
| 18:42 | <@Yexo> | hmm, that worked fine a few days ago |
| 18:43 | * | SmatZ apologises for the non-funny remark |
| 18:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Yexo: all links miss the /wiki part |
| 18:44 | <@Yexo> | I can see that, now idea why it's broken though |
| 18:44 | <@Yexo> | -w |
| 18:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and i can't find a wiki page explaining the transparency gui |
| 18:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... weird, if i go backwards in my cache, it seemed to have worked a few minutes ago even... |
| 18:47 | <xQR> | http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4574 <-- interesting bug |
| 18:48 | <xQR> | when Luukland asked me whether i know that problem i told him i don't |
| 18:48 | <xQR> | but now i just set one of my servers to have a quite huge map |
| 18:48 | <xQR> | and tried to connect with 2 clients at the same time |
| 18:48 | <xQR> | and i can reproduce it |
| 18:48 | <xQR> | the second client is just thrown back to the main menu |
| 18:48 | <xQR> | if it tries to connect while the first one is still downloading the map |
| 18:49 | <xQR> | i guess the only reason why i haven't noticed it yet is that the map downloading is so fast now that it doesn't happen that much to have 2 people try to download the map at the same time |
| 18:49 | <xQR> | so i still think you did a great improvement there, but ofc that issue has to be fixed :> |
| 18:52 | <xQR> | let's see whether -d net=3 is giving some more information about what happens |
| 18:58 | <xQR> | not really - just shows me how the second connection is coming but then closed again immediately |
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| --- | Log | closed Thu Apr 07 00:00:46 2011 |
