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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-07

---Logopened Thu Apr 07 00:00:46 2011
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02:00-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association #wwottdgd #openttd @#openttdcoop
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02:12<Rubidium>Yexo / xQR: the LZMA compression doesn't make much of an impact; I've tweaked it to create slightly smaller saves (~5 - 10%), taking the same time (~-5 - +5%) than zlib. The major change is, as SmatZ already said, the fact that the saves are now sent immediately when the first packet worth of compressed savegame is complete, instead of writing + flushing it to disk and then reading it from disk.
02:13<@SmatZ>I am not sure it was me who said that, but it's true :)
02:16<Rubidium>the other thing (being kicked during join) is annoying as, as usual, it *only* gets reported after the stable has been released instead of the 3+ months of betas and release candidates meant to root out these kinds of issues
02:16<Rubidium>SmatZ: then I have to booh my slow network updates
02:17<Rubidium>reading IRC backlogs over badly behaving VNC connections isn't fun when the nick doesn't correspond with what is said
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02:29<@peter1138>VNC? Don't you use SSH for such things...?
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02:30<Rubidium>yeah, I would be... if I were to access my server over ssh from here
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02:34<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:41<Dommoe>Hi everyone. I just started playing OpenTTD yesterday.
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02:42<Dommoe>Struggling to get airplanes to transport valuables. How do I refit them to do that?
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02:51<dihedral>good morning
02:53<dihedral><Rubidium> [07 Apr 2011 - 08:17:36] reading IRC backlogs over badly behaving VNC connections isn't fun when the nick doesn't correspond with what is said <- ZNC FTW :-P
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05:06<flitz>hi, the autoreplace_cmd.cpp has a function 'static inline CmdMoveVehicle(...)', what do I need to do to call this function in another .cpp file ?
05:08<flitz>i defined it in autoreplace_func.h and included autoreplace_func.h in my own .cpp file, but when calling the function I get a linker error
05:08<TinoDidriksen>...why is that both static and inline? Anyway, easiest would be to move it to a header and remove static.
05:11<@Terkhen>flitz: functions starting with Cmd are commands, they are intended to be called using DoCommand(...), not directly
05:12<flitz>hm, making it non-static and non-inline is the only thing that makes it work directly
05:12<@Terkhen>search for CMD_MOVE_VEHICLE to see an example
05:12<flitz>Terkhen: I know, but it didn't find any move command for this particular function
05:12<flitz>this was the first thing i did
05:14<@planetmaker>usually a grep -Ri "whateverfunctioname" src/* works wonders ;-)
05:14<flitz>I used kate's search function in this case, it didn't find anything for CmdMoveVehicle but a direct call to it from the same .cpp file
05:16<flitz>CommandCost res = CmdMoveVehicle(append, last_engine, DC_EXEC, false); <--- one of the direct calls to this function
05:16<flitz>it is never called via DoCommand
05:16<flitz>so maybe I should set it up in the _command_proc_table and use it that way ?
05:16<@planetmaker>DoCommand uses function references
05:17<flitz>i know
05:17<flitz>there is no reference to this particular function
05:17<@planetmaker>seems only be called in autoreplace...
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05:19<flitz>I just set it up in the _command_proc_table, this should work
05:19<flitz>I just thought I could call it from another .cpp directly, also, but this would require to remove static and inline from it
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05:25<@planetmaker>in the depot_gui.cpp there's a TrainDepotMoveVehicle
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05:27<@planetmaker>Hm.... but they're different
05:29<flitz>the cmdmovevehicle seems to do just exactly what I intended
05:30<flitz>ok, when I define a CommandProc CmdMoveVehicle and add an entry to the proc table I get the same linker error, so I will need to remove the static inline from this function I guess
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05:33<flitz>by the way, the signature for those command functions is always (uint, DoCommandFlag, uint, uint, char const*), right ?
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05:41<flitz>ok, thanks
05:41<flitz>hello, wolf01
05:42<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
06:16<Rubidium>dihedral: using VNC to connect to a computer with proper internet access to run an IRC client connected with ZNC doesn't help at all. It only makes it worse
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06:21<dihedral>you connect to znc with every computer :-P
06:21<dihedral>or even with mibbit ^^
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07:50*andythenorth somewhat wishes SAC hadn't just lifted graphics from my sets
07:51<andythenorth>even if it's only a mockup :|
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>SAC has "lifted" graphics from all over the place the entire time..
07:53<Ammler>as long as she doesn't release, you can't do much :-(
07:53<Chrill>she's always said she's not relasing anything until she's created all sprites for herself, no?
07:53<Chrill>So even if she's just "borrowing", she wouldn't release it as her own
07:54<andythenorth>I would be less grumpy about it if it wasn't (A) GPL
07:54<andythenorth>and (B) she was less than complementary about my work previously
07:54<andythenorth>and (C) it's seen as 'bad' if people lift SAC's work
07:54<andythenorth>no dramas
07:54<Chrill>you cant really lift her work, since you'd have to copy it from her screens :P
07:55<Ammler>andythenorth: it's a women, should be excuse enough ;-)
07:55<Chrill>i dont see how a gender changes anything :P
07:55*andythenorth knows about womans
07:55*andythenorth is with Chrill
07:55<andythenorth>Chrill: +1
07:56<Chrill>to be honest, SAC makes amazing graphics but people treat her like a Goddess in part for the graphics, in part for her being a her, and in part for her leaving and returning all the time
07:56<Chrill>its created this.. hype
07:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth, don't worry. Her work is more vapour than some other even
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07:56<andythenorth>it's all very 'deviant art' it seems to me
07:56<andythenorth>anyway, the food plant does look good
07:57<andythenorth>I should say something in the thread?
07:57<@planetmaker>depends upon your drama-attachment
07:57<andythenorth>I dislike boring dramas
07:58<andythenorth>interesting dramas centre on 'what is wrong with the game and why it should be fixed NOW'
07:58<andythenorth>not on 'they are my pixels, you stole them'
07:58<andythenorth>pixels are cheap :P
07:58<@planetmaker>you mean the part of the plant which looks suspiciously like the aluminum(?) plant? Or the wind millsß
07:58<Ammler>andythenorth: if you think, it isn't about gender, then please speak to her how you would speak to a guy ;-)
07:58<andythenorth>the aluminium plant, the forkllift, the small office building
07:59<andythenorth>the offices are dante's
07:59<andythenorth>and there are elements of ISR, retouched by me
07:59<andythenorth>all of which are GPL
07:59<andythenorth>and no other license
07:59<andythenorth>the chimneys are mph and the crates benk
07:59<andythenorth>and I think they are 'public domain'
08:00<Ammler>but I fear, then she leaves again tt-forums...
08:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth, keep quiet and use it later to GPL her newgrf ;-)
08:00<andythenorth>g*orge may use my stuff in ECS by private arrangement, but not other GPL works
08:00<andythenorth>back to work
08:02<Ammler>well, george could change his license too, he uses mostly community stuff anyway
08:02<andythenorth>ask him :P
08:02<andythenorth>and after that, maybe speak with oztrans :P
08:02<Ammler>oh, I tried, not just me :-P
08:03<Ammler>oztrans leaves in a strange country, no hope from such peopel ;-)
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08:09<Markavian>wrong channel ;___;
08:09<Markavian>anyway, hope you're feeling good openttd
08:14<Ammler>which is the "right" channel?
08:16<@Terkhen>probably #rufffty
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09:14<Wolf01>hello Belugas
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09:31<fonsinchen>btw, Eddi, I'm on IRC ...
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09:32<Lachie>I'm also on IRC, Eddi|zuHause, just to let you know.
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: yes, occasionally... whenever i checked in the past days, you weren't ;)
09:33<fonsinchen>sorry, I was busy
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>and to answer your question: yes, the feature is fairly new
09:34<fonsinchen>I think we should move parts of Vehicle::CanLeaveWithCargo to som Order::CanLeaveWithCargo
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>it was introduce to allow "timetabled wait times"
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>previously, "no loading" and "no unloading" couldn't be selected at the same time
09:36<fonsinchen>I'm pretty sure last_loading_station is set unconditionally somewhere where it should only be set if the vehicle can load or unload.
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09:38<Eddi|zuHause>it's incredibly useful to make a freight train wait at an intermediate stop, to let passenger trains overtake
09:39<fonsinchen>it's in Vehicle::LeaveStation
09:39-!-Yexo- is now known as Yexo
09:39<fonsinchen>there we use CanLeaveWithCargo to determine if we set last_loading_station
09:39<fonsinchen>However, in our case, of course the vehicle can leave with cargo
09:40<fonsinchen>but the non-loading, non-unloading stop is still not the last stopping station then.
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>fonsinchen: it essentially works like a waypoint
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>except it can have a wait time
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist should treat it like that
09:40<fonsinchen>I'll fix that.
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 21961
09:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r21961 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2011-02-04 16:07:42 UTC)
09:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Remove: limitation that not loading and not unloading is mutual exclusive
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10:36<fonsinchen>The deleting and adding of links on creation and removal of orders would be incredibly complicated as it's hard to find out what cargo a vehicle belonging to some order is transporting.
10:38<fonsinchen>Vehicles might be refitted or you might add vehicles with different cargo to the same order list and such things.
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'd exclude stopped vehicles
10:39<fonsinchen>Stopped vehicles aren't the problem
10:39<fonsinchen>but imagine an order list with multiple conditional orders which lead to different refits
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>refit orders may get crazy ;)
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>can you do this conservatively? i.e. if you encounter a refit order, you bail out completely and rely on actual vehicle movement?
10:41<fonsinchen>Then I construct the links and you add some vehicle with different cargo later on.
10:41<fonsinchen>Or you change the consist manually.
10:41<fonsinchen>There are about a million ways to mess up the scheme.
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you will be able to recalculate on vehicle start/stop or order change
10:42<fonsinchen>You don't have to change the orders to change the cargo
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but cargo changes may only appear in a depot
10:44<fonsinchen>Actually I was thinking about counting the order lists a link is referring to in order to easily determine when it can be removed. But I guess this won't work now.
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>i see... has cargodest actually managed these things?
10:47<fonsinchen>I don't know.
10:47<fonsinchen>Maybe I should check how they did it.
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>cargodest was purely order based
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11:08<fonsinchen>Cargodest ignores all the refitting and adding/removig of vehicles to existing order lists :(
11:09<@planetmaker>well, it was never finished ;-)
11:09<fonsinchen>It just takes the cargos for all vehicles with shared orders once, when the order list is modified and takes that as absolute.
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11:10<fonsinchen>It wasn't. The problem is, I can't use the algorithm like this.
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's unfortunate
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11:14<Eddi|zuHause>if the conditional orders are undeterministic, you could scan the order list for refit orders, and create links for all cargos there.
11:15<fonsinchen>Usually you do automatic refits to have only parts of the order list being executed with some cargo and other parts with some other.
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>so you have different decision path depending on "simple/deterministic" order lists and "undeterministic" order lists with and without refit orders
11:16<fonsinchen>So you'd get LOTS of links you don't want like this and lots of cargo waiting for links that don't actually exist.
11:16<fonsinchen>Now there is an additional catch. You might only refit part of the consist.
11:16<fonsinchen>and then refit another part and some other point
11:17<fonsinchen>and I'd have to keep track of that in order to determine what the consist will look like at what point
11:17<fonsinchen>and that might be ultimately undecidable.
11:18<fonsinchen>You might start the order list with some ridiculous condition like "needs service" and based on that refit to something or not.
11:18<fonsinchen>Then you just never go back to the first orders (using unconditional jumps).
11:18<fonsinchen>And I cannot tell what the consist will look like at later refits
11:19<fonsinchen>WHAT A MESS!
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11:21<Eddi|zuHause>imagine a train with mixed open wagons and closed wagons, factory/mine -ore/goods-> steel mill/town -> steel/goods -> loop back
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11:21<ZirconiumX>Hello all
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>it should be almost indeterminable that on the refit order to convert from ore to steel, you cannot change the closed wagons
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>so instead of a "homogenic" stell train, you get a steel/goods train
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>even though goods never appear in a refit order
11:23<xvd>Of all the downloadable AIs, what is a recommended one?
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>xvd: there is no "recommended" AI
11:24<fonsinchen>So there is exactly no way to do it like this. We need a new idea.
11:25<ZirconiumX>I say go for AroAI - but then again - I'm biased to it as I'm a dev of it
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>are refit orders actually that common to worry about the additional links?
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>xvd: the only recommendation is that you don't use two opponents with the same AI
11:26<xvd>Why that?
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11:27<@Terkhen>they tend to build the same lines
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11:28<xvd>yeah I see. Hm.
11:28<xvd>the classic TTD AI was diverse enough to not limit itself to one type of transportation . DOes something like that exist?
11:28<ZirconiumX>or AdmiralAI
11:28<ZirconiumX>or AIAI
11:29<ZirconiumX>are the ones of the top of my head
11:29<Yexo>also SimpleAI
11:29<xvd>sounds like a plan, I will research.
11:30<ZirconiumX>Try SimpleAI - It's *most* like the original AI
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11:39<fonsinchen>Let's just forget about creating and deleting links based on orders.
11:39<fonsinchen>I can set a fixed timeout for links to make things clearer.
11:40<fonsinchen>If a link wasn't visited in 2 months it disappears.
11:40<fonsinchen>Something like this.
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11:40<fonsinchen>Although I like the timeout based on distance thing.
11:42<supermop>longer links persist longer?
11:42<fonsinchen>well, longer links and links with more capacity.
11:43<fonsinchen>The capacity thing is sort of a problem.
11:44<fonsinchen>A timeout based on length but not on capacity might be good.
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11:46<fonsinchen>Instead of the freezing I'd just never let the link drop to 0 before its timeout hits. A vehicle loading for some link resets the timeout on each loading turn.
11:47<fonsinchen>Then I don't even have to drag around more data.
11:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22297 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#4580]: the 'freeform edges' setting could be enabled when there were buoys on the northern border (adf88)
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11:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22298 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Change: allow enabling 'freeform edges' setting when there is only station label above one of northern tiles
11:59<alluke>hi lakie
11:59<Lakie>Hello alluke
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12:00<alluke>hows the set doing
12:00<Eddi|zuHause><fonsinchen> well, longer links and links with more capacity. <-- the thing is, the higher the capacity, the earlier you should be able to detect a significant capacity drop
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12:01<Eddi|zuHause>so low capacity links should stay longer, high capacity links should decay fast
12:01<fonsinchen>capacity drops logarithmically
12:01<fonsinchen>it's a moving average
12:01<fonsinchen>and the function is designed specifically like this.
12:02<fonsinchen>But in fact the timeout shouldn't depend on the capacity. That's the problem with the current implementation, isn't it?
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, kinda
12:02<fonsinchen>And it's easy to solve
12:03<fonsinchen>without considering all the strange effects of conditional refits and stuff like that.
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>the timeout should probably depend on average vehicle speed or something
12:04<fonsinchen>The speed doesn't really tell you how often the link is visited.
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12:04<@planetmaker>travel time surely has an influence there? For a link established by one fast or one slow vehicle?
12:05<fonsinchen>In order to make a real measurement you'd have to measure number of vehicles visiting the link, speed, time spent with other orders, route they're going for the link and a bazillion other things.
12:05<fonsinchen>It's about the same as with the orders.
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12:06<fonsinchen>Observation shows that long links are more likely to be served with fewer and larger vehicles while short links are served with more and smaller ones.
12:06<fonsinchen>Consequently I made long links time out more slowly and short links more quickly.
12:06<fonsinchen>I still think this is reasonable.
12:07<fonsinchen>I gotta leave now.
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12:20<LordAro>moin all
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13:39<supermop>hello andy
13:40<supermop>what is your work flow like? i just set myself back a few days on this nakagin builfing i am working on by messing up my only copy of the .psd
13:40<andythenorth>supermop: did we discuss using version control?
13:40<andythenorth>or was that with dante?
13:40<supermop>maybe with me for sets, sounds familiar
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13:41<andythenorth>you should at minimum use version control
13:41<andythenorth>and if you do, you might as well use the openttdcoop repository service
13:41<supermop>i need to organize the way i use CS5 in general,
13:41<andythenorth>for remote copy of your repo
13:41<andythenorth>what OS do you have
13:41<supermop>as i am also redoing my portfolio, an making an online portfolio
13:41<supermop>windows 7
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm... somehow my income drastically dropped over the last 2 years
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13:42<Eddi|zuHause>like, halved....
13:42<andythenorth>supermop: :(
13:42<supermop>i am an architect, but in terms of portfolio stuff, most of the work i am doing at home lately is graphical
13:42<supermop>i like 7, its nice
13:42<supermop>and runs rhino
13:44<supermop>but something to control rendered images, photos, scans, cad drawings, models etc
13:44<supermop>and then out put as well: pdfs, webpages, eps files
13:44<supermop>i could have a parallel system for ottd work,
13:46<supermop>so does hat you suggest not work on 7?
13:46<supermop>eddi: in ottd or real life?
13:47<andythenorth>supermop: the windows :( is only because I can't help you install version control on windows
13:47<andythenorth>I would have a look at this
13:48<andythenorth>most of us seem to prefer hg, although git is good for binary files like psds
13:48<andythenorth>(hg is mercurial)
13:48<supermop>hg is for code?
13:51<andythenorth>and other files
13:51<supermop>are you a graphic designer by trade by the way?
13:51<andythenorth>I use hg for all my projects
13:51<supermop>in addition to ottd?
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13:55<Eddi|zuHause>loading indicators look weird when two trams are loading at one place with "quantum effects"...
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13:56<supermop>version control would keep all old versions of files?
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13:59<yorick>has anyone ever tried converting big screenshots into google maps tiles?
13:59<supermop>you would have to correct the projection
13:59<Yexo>supermop: yes, or rather all old versions you want to save
14:00<Yexo>yorick: not as far as I know, although there have been some projects that allowed to view screenshots of a running game in a browser
14:00<Yexo>even allowing scrolling by letting the server make a new screenshot every time
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14:01<andythenorth>supermop: I use hg for all openttd projects
14:01<andythenorth>for work, sometimes people I employ make me use svn :(
14:02<andythenorth>svn sucks
14:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I found it's more fun with loading indicators turned off
14:03<yorick>Yexo: do you have any links to them?
14:04<Yexo>sorry, no
14:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause I am heading back towards a more vanilla way of playing
14:06*andythenorth ponders
14:06<andythenorth>Yexo: where did newairports branch get stuck?
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm... comparing to (slow) nutracks, roads are really expensive
14:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: roadtypes?
14:06<Yexo>1. having a good way to determine when an aircraft is on the ground
14:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: we could just work on one bit at a time until it's done...
14:07<Yexo>and a few other things, which I forgot because it has been too long ago I worked seriously on it
14:07<Yexo>although I did sync the branch with trunk yesterday
14:07<andythenorth>is it an 'all or nothing' kind of patch?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: adding a property for price and speed should be easy ;)
14:07<Yexo><andythenorth> is it an 'all or nothing' kind of patch? <- newairports or roadtypes?
14:08<Yexo>not really, several things are already in 1.1
14:08<Yexo>such as custom airport tiles
14:08<andythenorth>roadtypes is pretty much 'all or nothing' is my opinion ;)
14:08<Yexo>and some airport action0 properties
14:08<Yexo>and lot's of refactoring in the code
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: SpComb had a "pngtile" project
14:09<andythenorth>Yexo: is it understood how newairports might relate to 'newdocks' ?
14:09<andythenorth>or newports or whatever
14:10<Yexo>not really
14:11*andythenorth is too good at inventing new work to do
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14:12<andythenorth>supermop: do you have version control yet? ;)
14:12<supermop>seems each day i see you here you suggest something new
14:12<supermop>i am at work
14:12<andythenorth>or something suggested n times before
14:12<supermop>(on a mbp)
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>i think all "newseaports" need is a list of entry-points for the pathfinder
14:12<andythenorth>supermop: you should install hg on the mbp and take it home
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>everything else (paths, loading bays) should work like airports
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>what's really complicated is extending the state machines for articulated road vehicles
14:13<supermop>the thing is, all this mbp is used for is a browser and a java app
14:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that might not be necessary
14:13<andythenorth>supermop: it doesn't have photoshop on it?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is.
14:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why?
14:14<supermop>this one doesn't
14:14<supermop>the imac does
14:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause it's not necessary to remove all restrictions :D
14:14<supermop>which i am not sitting at right now
14:14<andythenorth>supermop: you can't move the photoshop app to the other mac?
14:14<supermop>not my decision to make
14:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: articulated vehicles at drive-thru stops only is good gameplay
14:15<supermop>also i own photoshop at home
14:15<Yexo>andythenorth: the problem is that the current spec has no restrictions at all for movement, which is not a problem for aircraft or ships (if it doesn't look good that's a problem of the newgrf developer), but it might be hard to implement without crashes for articulated vehicles
14:15<supermop>the copy at work is not legitamate
14:15<supermop>(which i had nothing to do with)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but you rule out large drive-through-newroadstations that way
14:15<andythenorth>I don't mind that
14:15<andythenorth>I also rule out underground railways
14:15<andythenorth>and weather
14:15<andythenorth>well "I" don't
14:15<supermop>my coworker is a huge mac fanboy, he handles all the it stuff
14:16<andythenorth>supermop: "moving" photoshop is usually a matter of picking up the folder and moving it
14:16<andythenorth>not always though
14:16<supermop>not sure he wants me to have it on my mbp
14:16<andythenorth>well ok
14:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not every improvement is good surely?
14:16<supermop>as the only case would be for me to do graphic work when i am supposed to be doing real work
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i want proper turning loops for my trams. and most trams are articulated.
14:17<supermop>im with eddi on that
14:17<andythenorth>perfect is the enemy of the good etc
14:17<andythenorth>I want lots of ponies
14:17<andythenorth>sometimes I think the PHP approach might be better :P
14:18<andythenorth>do it wrong, ship, win
14:18<supermop>in architecture, you are never done designing,
14:18<supermop>so you present what is designed at the deadline
14:18<supermop>rather than push it back repeatedly
14:19<andythenorth>'agile architecture' :P
14:19<andythenorth>ship on time
14:19<supermop>once you have something to present you get feedback and improve the next iteration
14:19<andythenorth>how long are your iterations (in time)?
14:19<andythenorth>no fixed cadence?
14:20<supermop>in design development: hours
14:20<supermop>later it might be months or weeks
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14:21<andythenorth>Yexo: articulated RVs can't overtake either
14:21<andythenorth>so I'd chalk it up as a non-problem
14:22<Hirundo>Because A is broken, it's no problem to have B broken as well?
14:22<andythenorth>it's no problem if it's a known-unsolvable
14:22<andythenorth>or it's known that no-one is interested in solving it
14:22<supermop>but ultimately each project is an iteration of your philosophy
14:22<andythenorth>net benefit vs. technical debt
14:22<supermop>build an ok building, learn from it and build a better one next time
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14:28<supermop>how does version control affect workflow management
14:28<andythenorth>not sure
14:28<andythenorth>is there workflow management in CS 5?
14:28<supermop>i think
14:29<andythenorth>I still use CS 1, which I won as a prize
14:29<andythenorth>it has nothing clever in it
14:30<andythenorth>supermop: version control works as follows:
14:30<supermop>i think cs1 has bridge?
14:30<supermop>or the version i had did
14:31<supermop>wait no i had cs2
14:31<supermop>before that i just had 7.0
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14:34<andythenorth>supermop: what I do is:
14:34<andythenorth>- add file to version control
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>something's weird, i have one source station of metal, three target stations that accept metal, and all have active links, but i get metal "to any station"...
14:35<andythenorth>- save file up until such time as I want to commit a revision to version control
14:35<andythenorth>- make commit
14:35<andythenorth>- carry on working
14:35<andythenorth>my workflow is: open file, work on file, save file, export pcx / png, close file
14:35<supermop>the revisions are on a HDD, or on a server?
14:35<supermop>or both?
14:36<andythenorth>first locally, then pushed to the server
14:36<supermop>currently i work on files from my ssd, the save to an external hd when done
14:36<supermop>but i feel like that isn't very safe
14:37<andythenorth>it's not
14:37<andythenorth>for n reasons
14:40<andythenorth>FIRS bug :(
14:41<andythenorth>anyone want to pick holes in my production code?
14:41<andythenorth>might be useful if I'm not the *only* person on the planet who understands it ;)
14:42<andythenorth>for example...
14:43<supermop>i want a drobo fs
14:43<Hirundo>andythenorth: write your code in NML :)
14:44<supermop>also i have some hosting with orudge's thing, could use that
14:44<andythenorth>Hirundo: probably still holes in it :)
14:44<andythenorth>unless nml makes things like proper maths possible :P
14:45<@planetmaker>it does...
14:45<Hirundo>depends on your definition of 'proper maths', but I'd say yes
14:45<andythenorth>feel free to write a migration script for FIRS to nml
14:45<@planetmaker>lool :-)
14:46<@planetmaker>that'd be nfo2nml parser
14:46<andythenorth>or reimplement selected parts in nml by hand, then have make sort it out
14:47*andythenorth is worried about CHIPS
14:48<andythenorth>it started out beautifully simple
14:48<andythenorth>and mostly has stayed that way (thanks to clever coding by yexo)
14:48<andythenorth>but now I am having...ideas :|
14:48<Hirundo>nfo stations aren't simple by any means
14:48<supermop>indeed they are not
14:48<andythenorth>this is wrt set design
14:49<andythenorth>the nfo is already complex :)
14:49<andythenorth>I had planned three types of PAX tile
14:49<andythenorth>now I seem to be planning many more
14:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: (re)implementing selected parts in NML - that *should* be possible
14:49<andythenorth>I had: parcels office, booking office, concourse
14:49<@planetmaker>Though on a MUCH simpler scale, I'm doing that with OpenGFX
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14:50<andythenorth>now I have large small versions of each, some 1 tile, some 2 tile...
14:50<@planetmaker>Give me some time to sort out the proper amendments to the makefile(s)
14:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: don't spend time you would better spend on other things :o
14:50<andythenorth>I won't be reimplementing any code
14:50<andythenorth>new framework fallacy
14:51<andythenorth>nml won't fix my bugs
14:51<andythenorth>fixing the bugs will
14:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but I need the makefile thing for OpenGFX anyway ;-)
14:51<andythenorth>ok cool
14:51<@planetmaker>it will look like that the pnfo files are (simply) generated from nml files
14:52<@planetmaker>but... deps don't yet quite work. It still requires manual updates of nml2nfo
14:53<@planetmaker>but I guess... with newgrfs only it might be easier than for base sets... ho hum...
14:53<@planetmaker>newgrfs don't need fixed sprite numbers
14:56<andythenorth>CHIPS parcels office...
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15:15<supermop>wait does nml do stations yet?
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15:15<Hirundo>nope :(
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm... there's an inconsistency: when you build a bridge, it shows the selection window first, and then checks the available money when you select, but when you ctrl+build a station, it checks the money first and then shows the selection window...
15:17<Hirundo>bridge cost depends on the type of bridge, station cost does not depend on what station you join it to
15:17<@SmatZ>Swallow is right
15:24<SpComb>yorick: I never took a look at the gmaps API, I did my own little Javascripts bit on top of the PNG tile server
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16:06<Nite>do nonstop orders even prevent autoorders when trains went through waypoints ?
16:11<@planetmaker>auto-orders only "log" where a train stops, don't they?
16:11<Zuu>non-stop orders sholud prevent auto-orders.
16:11<Zuu>(If you follow the logic that planetmaker posted above)
16:11<@planetmaker>I guess we typed concurrently :-)
16:11<Zuu>non-stop prevent the trains from stoping - thuse no auto orders will be created.
16:12<Zuu>planetmaker: :-)
16:14<Nite>so there can never be a "nonstop auto order" (?)
16:17<@Alberth>trains never stop at waypoints
16:18<Nite>so they are autostoporders not rly autoorders ...
16:19<@Alberth>so maybe whether you have autoorders for waypoints depends on how you see auto-orders
16:19<@Alberth>ie if you see them as points where the train passes, you should have them, if you see them as points where it stops, you should not have them
16:19<Nite>ic ic
16:20<Nite>so why can i set a depot order to nonstop ? is it hte same as "via" depot?
16:21<@Alberth>go to the depot, do not stop on the way, collect $200
16:21<@Alberth>oh, wrong game :)
16:22<@Alberth>I think you can find stations on the way to the depot, so having a non-stop order for going to the depot makes sense
16:22<Nite>Alberth - it does not mather how i see them, they work as they work, wheather i lokk at them or not, unlike quantum particles
16:22<@Alberth>what 'via' means, no clue at all
16:22<Nite>k = o
16:23<@Alberth>Nite: true, but my concern is that they should behave correctly, which may be different from how they behave now. For that, you need clear semantics of auto-orders
16:24<@Alberth>(as a separate source)
16:25<Nite>iam not wondering about them autoorders anymore, i wonder why you can nonstop a depot order still ...
16:25<Nite>SRY not depot order but waypoint order
16:26<Nite>ok ok ok
16:26<@Alberth>why can there not be stations between a train and a waypoint?
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: if you have a line Station A - Station B - Waypoint - Station C
16:26<Nite>nonstop to
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>and if you have orders "go to Station A, go to Waypoint, go to Station C"
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>then it stops at B
16:26<Nite>the "to" has the weight i get it now
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>if you have orders "go to Station A, go non-stop to Waypoint, go to Station C"
16:27<Nite>i get it thank youu
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>then it does not stop at B
16:27<Nite>had quirks in my head
16:27<Zuu>'via' means that the train will not stop at the station.
16:27<Zuu>Effectivly using it as a waypoint.
16:27<@Alberth>Nite: glad we could unquirck you :)
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>bäh this start of the month always annoys me... it makes me lose 6000...
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>or more
16:29<andythenorth>quirck or quak?
16:29<Nite>i get it again, it was "nonstop + via" what i was searching for
16:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: your flat is quite expensive
16:29<Nite>without knowing
16:30<Nite>6000 what?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>why do trains stop puffing when entering a station?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: sausages.
16:31<Nite>Eddi|zuHause because they break not accelerate?
16:31<Nite>brake brake brake
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: but 1 puff = 1 piston movement?
16:33<Nite>is it?
16:33<Nite>i guess it is only one powered piston movement
16:35<Nite>btw all the sounds i ever heard coming out of ottd do not represent steamengines well (and further all sound of tto - ottd sucked ever since ...)
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16:40<Eddi|zuHause>have you tried UKRS/NARS?
16:41<Nite>yes almost always use pikkas sets
16:41<Nite>still the sound files loop wrong
16:41<Nite>the steamengines are not "rhytmic" ... as if it woudl mather
16:42<Nite>you would onyl listen to it once even if it where good, then turnit off because of annoyance
16:42<Nite>so nevermind the sound, its not needed ..
16:48<Nite>bridge replacing works fine now *bows*
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16:55<supermop>so do you guys recomment this hg thing for .psd?
16:55<andythenorth>some people prefer git
16:59<supermop>reading bout them now on wp
17:00<@planetmaker>supermop: it's a matter of personal preference. But hg... is quite easy to get by and used to. git tends to be more complex (my perception)
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17:09<andythenorth>good night
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17:17<@Terkhen>good night
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17:33<Zuu>Hmm, by having a truck full loaded with cargo visit a station and try to load from time to time you can keep the transported % > 0 of an industry.
17:33<Zuu>Without actually loading any new cargo onto the truck.
17:34<Yexo>% transported of an industry = station rating of last month, at least with only a single station
17:34<Yexo>with multiple stations it's a bit more difficult
17:34<Yexo>it's not actually the percentage you transport to somewhere else
17:34<Zuu>And station rating is increased even if you don't load anything..
17:36<Yexo>but "fixing" that leads to other problems, like when there are 3 stations competing for goods
17:36<Yexo>one way to get the rating up is to always have a station loading, if you only got the rating up when there were actual goods the 3rd station would never be able to get any goods
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17:38<Zuu>It is in my case mostly a symptom on the fact that my AI don't detect when stations with towns as target don't detect when they stop to accept cargo (eg. goods)
17:39<Zuu>But apparently all other AIs think my AI service it good enough to not compeete. :-)
17:39<Zuu>(service of the factory)
17:51<Yexo>not sure, perhaps the other AIs are checking for >0% service?
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18:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22299 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#4581]: Check the availability year of all houses, not just the NewGRF houses, when making sure that at least one is available onwards from year 0
18:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22300 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r22299): Missing out on a ! can have the opposite effect of what was intended
18:41<__ln__>can have
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18:46<Yexo>indeed, "can have", as the test case of FS#4581 was actually fixed by r22299
18:46<@SmatZ>fwiw, czech government has a chance to fall, and there might be (again) premature elections :-/
18:46<supermop>anyone here use monotone?
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18:48<Yexo>not me
18:48<Yexo>never heard of it before now
18:49<supermop>just reading up on version control
18:51<@SmatZ>and son of our ex-minister of health has been sentenced to 2 months
18:51<@SmatZ>what country am I living in :-/
18:52<Yexo>at least it's not italy
18:52<@SmatZ>hehe :)
18:52<@SmatZ>(well, he was sentenced for drunk-driving, and here it means > 0.00%)
18:53<@SmatZ>which is silly by itself...
18:53<@SmatZ>he would be sentenced for more if he had 0.05%, or even 0.1%....
18:53<Yexo>0.00 as limit is silly because you can't measure that
18:53<Yexo>"no alcoholic drinks" as limit would not be silly at all
18:54<Yexo>but since that can't be measured, settle for something very low
18:54<@SmatZ>you could then "eat" alcohol and get drunk as hell
18:54<@SmatZ>like, chocolate with alcohol
18:54<Yexo>yes, that's why a 0.00% limit is silly
18:54<@SmatZ>it doesn't make sense
18:55<@SmatZ>actually, if you get to blood tests, and they measure <0.025%, you can't be punished
18:55<@SmatZ>because that's possible natural level of alcohol in blood
18:55<@SmatZ>but who wants to spend hours waiting for blood test and its results...
18:56<__ln__>anyone who doesn't want to get punished?
18:56<Yexo>0.5 promille is the limit here
18:56<@SmatZ>that makes sense
18:56<Yexo>for "new" drivers it's 0.2
18:57<Yexo>where "new" means you have your drivers license for less than 5 years
18:57<@SmatZ>in germany, it's 4 years
18:57<@SmatZ>but still...
18:57<Yexo>supposedly 0.5 promille is about 2 glasses of alcoholic drinks
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18:58<@SmatZ>there were people punished for 0.1-0.3 promille
18:58<@SmatZ>from NL/GER
18:58<Ruudjah>game load progressbar behaves differently in 1.1
18:58<@SmatZ>and they were shown as "bad esxamples" in local news :P
18:58<__ln__>the size of glass and the size of person may affect just a bit
18:59<Yexo>well, there they are
18:59<Yexo>always know that kind of laws when you go abroad :p
18:59<@SmatZ>like "do you see those bad foreigners? they are drunk driving!"... what a bullshit
18:59<Yexo>Ruudjah: better or worse?
18:59<Yexo>SmatZ: ok, that is overdoing it a lot
18:59<Yexo>__ln__: "standard" glasses of alcohol
18:59<Ruudjah>previously the loading bar reflected amount of data transferred over complete download session
19:00<Yexo>which means 0.2l beer or shotglasses of stronger drinks
19:00<Yexo>of course the specific drink and person make a big difference
19:00<Ruudjah>now it wait for 1-2 secs, then updates it to correct percentage loaded
19:00<Ruudjah>I dont know if its more correct previously or now, at least the impression is that now its less accurate
19:00<Yexo>Ruudjah: most likely that's because since 1.1 openttd already starts downloading the map before the server is done saving it, so it doesn't know the total download size
19:01<__ln__>are there countries where drunk-driving is permitted?
19:01<Yexo>the net effect should be that you have to wait less when joining a game
19:01<Ruudjah>Off course, this is a major issue and should be labeled 'critical'
19:01<@SmatZ>__ln__: some countries, where alcohol is generally forbidden :)
19:02<__ln__>in sweden it is possible to get a special permit to drive drunk for scientific purposes. (not on public roads, though)
19:03<@SmatZ>the law here applies only to public roads
19:03<@SmatZ>(and I would think in the most of the world)
19:03<Yexo>traffic law yes, the rest of the law not :p
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19:03<@SmatZ>of course :)
19:04<@SmatZ>it's a law about ... public communications
19:04<__ln__>over here the law certainly applies everywhere, it is illegal to drive drunk in your own backyard.
19:04<Yexo>however even a private parking lot is considered 'public' if there is nothing barring entry
19:05<Zuu>Year cheat 30 year in future => CluelessPlus increased it's income by ~60% in a year by upgrading vehicles while most other AIs only made minor improvements. And it seems it has not got into a too bad management hell either so I can probably ship this update rather soon. :-)
19:05<@SmatZ>there was an interesting court case for that... and the decision was that the "right-hand rule" applies to parking lots as well
19:05<@SmatZ>it wasn't about being drunk though
19:05<@SmatZ>nor private backyards
19:05<Yexo>I wonder what google is making of my searching tonight. First searching for firearms and accident rates, after that for drunk driving :p
19:05<Eddi|zuHause><Yexo> which means 0.2l beer or shotglasses of stronger drinks <-- you can't get 0.2l glasses of beer unless you're near cologne, and then it's not even beer at all :p
19:05<@SmatZ>hehe :)
19:06<@SmatZ>Yexo: :D
19:06<@SmatZ>try "The search engine philosophy emphasizes privacy and does not record user information."
19:07<@SmatZ>( I found that site today)
19:07<Yexo>if I don't access it over https my provider will log everything, so it doesn't really matter
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>i wish i could tell a train "full load, but when you didn't load anything for 2 cycles and >80% loaded, then go ahead anyway"
19:08<@SmatZ>Yexo: our constitutional court cancelled that law here few days ago
19:08<@SmatZ>hope the same will happen to you
19:08<@SmatZ>and to France
19:11<Yexo>I have very little faith in the government for anything related to privacy
19:11<Yexo>or ict for that matter
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19:18<Yexo>SmatZ: (in dutch)
19:18<Ruudjah>Smatz: depending on the country where you live, don't bother with duckduckgo
19:19<Ruudjah>especially if you live in France
19:19<Yexo>the figure is the number of times the government has requested telephone, sms and email data
19:19<Yexo>in times / 1000 population
19:19<Yexo>Ruudjah: why not?
19:19<Ruudjah>because they'll save the search data anyways
19:20*SmatZ google translates & reads :)
19:20<Ruudjah>whether that happens at the google server or at some ISP server or at some fiber split (room 51 at AT&T) doesnt matter
19:21<Ruudjah>by the way, that website design of bof rocks quite hard
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 08 00:00:10 2011