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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-08

---Logopened Fri Apr 08 00:00:10 2011
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00:35<Cozzie>hello =)
00:39<Cozzie>I am currently in a bit of newgrf frenzy where I am trying to cram as much grfs without having any conflicts (and failing) any advices?
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02:42<@planetmaker>Cozzie: there's no general guideline. But "as much as possible" is not a good approach ;-)
02:42<@planetmaker>You should only add those which you "need"
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02:46<@planetmaker>Of course you can (and probably should) configure it for each game separately. In case of doubt of what a newgrf does start a short test game with it and decide upon that whether it matches your intended scenario
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03:07<Cozzie>hrmm i figured as such, i want to make a big game that is as rich as possible but i ended up with some weird effects (ie: planes having running cost higher than it's earning potential)
03:08<Cozzie>not to mention some of the grfs arent properly documented
03:11<@planetmaker>It doesn't need many grfs for a big and rich game ;-) But it definitely helps to only use grfs where you at least know somewhat their effects
03:12<@planetmaker>indeed, though not every grf is well documented, though readmes for many can be found
03:12<Cozzie>hahaha cause i just started playing again, so im in that phase
03:12<Cozzie>what are your recommendation?
03:12<@planetmaker>I've no fixed set of newgrfs
03:13<Cozzie>my aim is to have a wide variety of choices and having each transport option financially viable
03:13<Cozzie>what's your favourites then?
03:14<@planetmaker>I'd throw in a few station grfs like isr, dwe, chips. Add heqs, then egrvts or long vehicles, then fish, av8; nars / ukrs / 2ccTrains / japanese. SwedishRails
03:14<Cozzie>that's a lot lol
03:15<@planetmaker>firs, maybe japanese landscape or opengfx+landscape
03:15<@planetmaker>note the few or I said :-)
03:15<Cozzie>oh lol
03:15<@planetmaker>the trains are alternatives. not ands
03:15<Cozzie>ive yet to try out the trains as i know they can be complicated
03:15<Cozzie>pity cant mix those trainsets
03:16<Cozzie>ive tried fish, avt, egrvts and hoverbus
03:16<@planetmaker>well, you can mix trainsets
03:16<Cozzie>currently checking out balance based grfs
03:16<Cozzie>wont they conflict?
03:16<@planetmaker>but some authors don't like that - that's the biggest issue there - and make it hard(er) to mix them
03:16<@planetmaker>yes and no. They might
03:17<Cozzie>that's a shame though authors making things harder =/
03:19<@planetmaker>yes. But it's a matter of compatibility. Making sets work along eachother is not an easy task with train sets.
03:19<@planetmaker>at least in a (mostly) bug-free way when you at the same time want to supply a feature-rich set
03:20<@planetmaker>but maybe you also just want to use firs and opengfx+trains. Then you can also transport everything :-)
03:20<@planetmaker>also opengfx+road vehicles then
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03:22<Cozzie>i'll check those out but it seems i would have to spend quite a bit of time on these
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03:26<@planetmaker>moin dihedral
03:26<@planetmaker>Cozzie: often less is more in the area of newgrf ;-)
03:27<@planetmaker>you might look for inspiration through the PublicServerArchive for sets of newgrfs.
03:27<@planetmaker>hm... - #
03:29<@Terkhen>good morning
03:41<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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04:09<dihedral>oi Terkhen :-)
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05:28<Cozzie>curiously, by default does the value of the cargo start decreasing once it is loaded or only after it leaves the station?
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05:29<@planetmaker>iirc, yes
05:29<@planetmaker>or rather as soon as it gets loaded the first time
05:30<@planetmaker>he, it was an or question. I need more tea
05:31<Cozzie>and one more, the cargo price timer does not get reseted in transfer until it reaches the end destination is that correct?
05:31<@planetmaker>of course not
05:31<Cozzie>haha just wondering =P
05:31<@planetmaker>the clock runs once you start delivering a cargo
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05:32<@planetmaker>transfer orders is just how you company-internally manage to do that
05:32<Cozzie>so say, when a train is waiting for wood to be loaded, the timer has already started ticking?
05:35<Cozzie>hrmm ive been playing this game for 13 years i am still so unknowledgeable at the intricacies
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05:57<__ln__>10floW olleh
05:57<Wolf01>do you know I have a script for that?
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06:24<Eddi|zuHause3>pressing Alt+F4 twice?
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06:33<welshdragon>Devs: I have a request from a friend.
06:34<Chrill>you have a friend?
06:34<welshdragon>a friend who writes for a Linux Magazine
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>one of those facebook things?
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06:36<welshdragon>a request for information on cross platform program compiling
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06:37<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a wiki page about that, probably horribly outdated
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06:46<Yexo>there is but that is indeed 5 or 6 years out of date
06:47<Yexo>welshdragon: why are you asking that question in #openttd? cross-compiling is not really openttd specific, and there is lots of information about it
06:47<Chrill>Yexo: where else to ask for a direct answer? people in the know are around
06:48<Yexo>sure, if it was a small/simple question, but it's very broad and vague
06:49<welshdragon>Yexo, and OpenTTD is a well known Cross Platform Game
06:49<Yexo>yes, but I'm still not sure what you want to know
06:49<Chrill>Yexo: I agree with you there. However, I feel like welshdragon made an assumption (a correct one) that people here could point him in the right direction
06:50<Yexo>in that case wikipedia is a good start:
06:50<Chrill>and there you go, someone here helped him :P
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06:58<welshdragon>Yexo, ^
07:00<Yexo>still reads like a very broad question that can be answered by reading a bit on wikipedia and searching for any questions you get from there
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07:22<Cozzie>is there anyway of turning landed areas into water?
07:22<Yexo>you can build canals
07:23<Yexo>if you want sea: it's only possible if it's at level 0
07:23<Yexo>just make a connection with other sea tiles and it'll flood
07:26<Cozzie>make a connection with other sea tiles?
07:26<Cozzie>im at the same level as the water
07:27<Yexo>lower land between water and your empty tiles until the sea can flow to your new area
07:27<Yexo>instead of sea you can also connect to a map border if that's easier
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07:30<Cozzie><a href="" title="Hosted by"></a>
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07:30<Wolf01>those are canals
07:31<Yexo>indeed, those are either canals or it's made with some patch I haven't heard of
07:31<Wolf01>boekabart's leveled water patch, maybe
07:31<@planetmaker>I think those are rivers
07:32<@planetmaker>the border clearly is a river border, not canal
07:32<Wolf01>rivers.. canals... not sea :D
07:32<@planetmaker>yes :-)
07:32<@planetmaker>sorry for being pedantic ;-)
07:33<Cozzie>yes this is a senario
07:33<Cozzie>i was testing out something and it is an eye sore
07:33<Cozzie>so i cant flood it?
07:33<@planetmaker>only sea floods. Rivers and canals don't
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07:35<flitz>greetings, openttd
07:35<Cozzie>fun scenario though, 1.3k of farm production =x
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08:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'd love to see how coop people would route cargo trains through a mostly single-track network :p
08:19<flitz>nice shot, eddi
08:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I'd recon we'd quickly overload the network with trains ;-)
08:19<flitz>is there a savegame to this ?
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... could do this, but needs chills patch pack
08:20<@planetmaker>and modified newgrf ;-)
08:21<@planetmaker>seems to be the same savegame :-P
08:21<flitz>for the save ?
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>ah, right ;)
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's the same game.
08:21<flitz>I use chills patchpack, don't know about the newgrfs :)
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>i can't distribute the modified newgrfs, so a savegame wouldn't be of much use
08:22<@planetmaker><3 osie :-)
08:22<@planetmaker>it's really helpful with screenshots :-)
08:22<flitz>ah ok
08:23<flitz>btw, do you study in halle ?
08:23<@peter1138>He studies beer.
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>i study lots of things :p
08:24<@peter1138>Yeah, beer and women.
08:24<@peter1138>(Or men, I dunno)
08:24<flitz>how does it look today ? (i grew up there)
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>besides of lots of closed industries and neglected road repair?
08:26<__ln__>i heard there's a new grocery or something
08:26<flitz>I heard they turned my home area into a forest ...
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>they teared down quite a lot of buildings in Silberhöhe and Neustadt... but "forest" is a little exaggerated :p
08:27<flitz>ok, or something green at least ;)
08:29<__ln__>*(tear, tore, torn)
08:31<flitz>hm, not that the old stuff was actually pretty
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08:49<@planetmaker>o_O SAC made it again. Into a flaming topic
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08:59<@peter1138>SAC's always trolling, anyway
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>the vapourtroll.
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09:13<Wolf01>hello Belugas
09:21<@Belugas>hi Wolf01 :)
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09:58<Hirundo>Is it possible to disable "vehicle XXX is getting old" news messages? (without disabling all vehicle-related messages, that is)
09:59<@planetmaker>good question. Next one please ;-)
10:00<Hirundo>Feature Request: Add a setting to enable/disable "vehicle XXX is getting old" news messages.
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10:00<@planetmaker>or automatically disable that when "vehicles never expire" is on. Or do we do that already then?
10:01<Hirundo>hmm... *checks*
10:01<Hirundo>I have vehicles never expire off, but in 2100 replacing stuff isn't of much use
10:02<@planetmaker>I rather meant the breakdown setting
10:02<@planetmaker>it makes sense with that.
10:02<Hirundo>autorenew and breakdowns are off
10:03<@planetmaker>yeah. And without breakdowns there's no need to renew and there's no need for that message.
10:03<Hirundo> <- it checks for autorenew, but nothing else
10:03<@planetmaker>but setting might be better
10:03<Hirundo>YAAS (yet another advanced setting)
10:03<@planetmaker>hm... there's also a setting which is "autorenew only when breakdowns" or similar. IIRC
10:04<dihedral>Hirundo, 'jazz' would be more creative :-P "just anaza zettingz"
10:04<Hirundo>"Disable servicing when breakdowns set to none"
10:04<Hirundo>I wonder, how that affects autorenew
10:05<@planetmaker>no autorenew, if there's no service.
10:05<@planetmaker>IIRC, but again, I'd need to test, vehicles don't go into a depot just for being replaced
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10:07<Hirundo>They seem to do for autoreplace, not sure about autorenew (yet)
10:07<@planetmaker>but honestly, IMHO the "best" approach would be like you asked a more fine-grain controlled news setting
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>they do go to depot if an autoreplace rule applies, even if servicing is disabled
10:08<@planetmaker>ok, then I recalled wrongly :-)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is usually that you didn't place your depots so they are easily accessible from many routes :p
10:09<@planetmaker>happens indeed
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>my biggest problem usually is that they are only accessible from one direction. so trains easily get lost after they were in the depot
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes by luck, other times by design, they'll exit through turning at another depot
10:10<@planetmaker>yeah... that's why we (coop) usually build service centres which can do the job for autoreplacement with depots easily accessible for all directions
10:11<@planetmaker>but then, it's not done too often
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>who wanted to implement drive-through depots/shunting yards? :p
10:12<@planetmaker>Possibly some guy from Halle?
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10:29<Cozzie>what's the best strategy to earn money when a game is first started?
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10:32<flitz>run a coal train over a distance of ~100 tiles AFAIK
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10:33<ccfreak2k>Achievement unlocked!
10:33<flitz>not sure about the distance, this also depends quite much on the newgrfs you are using, with older and slower and weaker vehicles in the beginning this might be very different
10:33<Cozzie>i tried playing from 1900 with the horse drawn carriage
10:34<flitz>:) me too, some time ago
10:34<Cozzie>that dint go too well
10:34<flitz>at least you really see what trains are worth then ;)
10:34<Cozzie>infrastructure for trains is horridly expensive
10:34<Cozzie>and i am only limiting myself to 200k =/
10:34<flitz>I barely kept alive until I had enough money to sell my around 50 carriages and buy my first train in the 50's :D
10:35<Cozzie>you used the carriages and survived?
10:35<Cozzie>dont have much grfs that would affect it except egrvts and altered costs and prices
10:35<flitz>i used passenger carriages within a town
10:35<Cozzie>horse drawn?
10:35<flitz>with standard costs and prices, yes, horses
10:36<Cozzie>does not have much documentation but i liked the logic that non perishable does not go down in prices
10:36<flitz>is a bit ago, maybe costs and prices changed since then (there was no option for this when I tried this)
10:37<Cozzie>hrmm gotta investigate what exactly altered costs and prices 1.2 affect
10:39<flitz>I found that with the daylength patch the game can become significantly easier
10:40<flitz>erm... but I also altered it a little bit, so that even though days are longer, payment still stays the same
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10:53<Eddi|zuHause>hm... either MB messed something up, or i did, or FIRS cargo scheme changed in the mean time... the faster open wagon cannot load scrap metal...
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>i should make a proper DBSetXL-Mod ;)
10:56<Lakie>Doesn't MB explicitly deny the ability for others to modify his work in any way?
10:56<Cozzie>should'nt any deveriatives of ottd be opensource?
10:57<Lakie>He might have chosen to disallow scrap metal in that wagon, using the bitmask.
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>Lakie: you can't disallow modification, you can only disallow distribution
10:59<Lakie>Heh, fair enough
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>more specifically, the copy right explicitly denies the right to forbid modification for "compatibility" of computer programs [here DBSet and FIRS]
11:00<Lakie>I wouldn't really class newgrfs as programs, probably more closer to art
11:00<Yexo>Cozzie: yes, but newgrfs are not deratives of openttd
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>Lakie: the NFO part is clearly a computer program
11:01<Lakie>Maybe in a broad sence, but then one could class xml as a computer program in that sence
11:01<Cozzie>oh intersting, i thought by running on top of ottd, they would be
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>Cozzie: and when you run a program on windows, it is automatically covered by the windows license?
11:03<Cozzie>good point haha
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11:10<xvd>is it possible to group stations and use the group as an entry for the Order list?
11:11<@planetmaker>but you know of shared orders and copying orders, xvd?
11:12<xvd>I remember copying orders but failed to find it again ^_^
11:16<@planetmaker>goto + click on other vehicle
11:16<@planetmaker>if you use goto + ctrl + click on other vehicle they share the same orders. Thus if you modify them, it's then valid for all who share the orders
11:18<flitz>and if you [ctrl] + clone a vehicle from the depot view, the cloned veh will share the originators group and orders, too - very useful
11:18<@Belugas>that, or search for my wife. You'll find a lot of orders...
11:20<Cozzie>speaking of shortcuts is there one for clone?
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11:25<flitz> << says no
11:25<Cozzie>yeah checked that
11:26<Cozzie>i believe i can bind myself right?
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11:31<flitz>hm, my hotkeys.cfg is in binary format, don't know
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11:32<flitz>But I would guess that you cannot bind any function to a hotkey which isn't already represented by another hotkey
11:32<flitz>i.e. you can only re-bind
11:33<Yexo>Cozzie: no, you can set custom hotkeys for any item in hotkeys.cfg ,you can't add arbitrary commands
11:34<Yexo>if you really miss some hotkeys for some items feel free to post a feature request about those
11:35<Cozzie>thank you for the answer
11:35<Cozzie>i will ask
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11:51<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the vehicle offer windows doesn't seem to display additional newgrf text
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11:54<Yexo>is it supposed to?
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12:17<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: would be kinda useful to get info like "this is a {city|regional} bus"
12:18<Yexo>however which text should be shown there?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>the same one that is displayed in the buy list?
12:19<Yexo>the text is the buy list is partly by openttd and partly by the newgrf
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>does that matter?
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>basically everything except the reliability should be shown
12:22<Yexo>not perse, but it might give unexpected results
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12:27<Eddi|zuHause>Lachie: btw. the dbset license specifically talks about the dbset consisting of "graphics" and "program code"
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>err... i meant Lakie
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's a weird mis-tabbing :p
12:31<Lakie>Still wouldn't think of nfo as a program as such. More stored data intepreted by ttdpatch or openttd/
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>a program is exactly "stored data interpeted by <machine>"
12:32<Lakie>I guess
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>german copyright is very wide on the definition of what a program is...
12:33<Lakie>Ah, I se
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13:23<Cozzie>does having multiple industries in close proximity affect each other's production rate?
13:24<flitz>co-question: is industry dependant on surrounding tiles ? Meaning, does it have any effect if I lay a lot of railroads through a farm's argrarian tiles ?
13:25<LordAro>both: no
13:25<Cozzie>thank you
13:25<flitz>and convenient
13:26<Cozzie>flitz: was checking out earlier this afternoon haha
13:26<Cozzie>found it in the wiki but no mention of industries in close proximity
13:26<LordAro>there are plans to change this, but no more than that (more a draft of a plan actually)
13:26<Cozzie>in what way... this is intersting
13:27<LordAro>flitz: building through farm tiles is more expensive though
13:27<flitz>I have often asked that myself (but always acted the same way regardless)
13:27<LordAro>cozzie: there's something on the wiki somewhere... somewhere in frosch123's user pages
13:27<flitz>so the farm tiles count as belonging to the industry and building through them is like destroying some building first ?
13:28<LordAro>the opposite :)
13:28<Cozzie>cool will check it out
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>only the tropic saw mill is dependent on surrounding tiles
13:29<flitz>the opposite is close enough :)
13:30<Cozzie>i dont get it...
13:31<Cozzie>i have a farm that is producing 1328 tonnes of grain and 600 tonnes of livestock (falling from 2000, why...) but the odd thing is that my train still has to wait at the station even though 23% and 33% is transported last month
13:31<Cozzie>confusing =x
13:32<flitz>maybe its the station rating ?
13:33<Cozzie>seems like it
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13:34<Yexo>Cozzie: % transported last month depends on station rating
13:34<Yexo>see the game mechanics wiki page for how it works
13:35<@planetmaker>wiki - the unexplored country. Its search function: the hidden treasure
13:36<flitz>sometimes, communication is more fun than just searching and reading ;)
13:36<Yexo>yes :)
13:37<Yexo>and sometimes, pointing to the wiki is easier than explaining yet another time ;)
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13:37<Yexo>see under 2 and 3
13:37<Cozzie>i have read it earlier today, still trying to undrestand
13:37<flitz>true :>
13:38<Cozzie>tbh, the criteria for staiton ration is quite absurd
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13:40<Yexo>yes, they are, however it's been working this way since the original transport tycoon
13:41<@planetmaker>this game has more oddities in the rules than it has straight forward rules ;-)
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22301 /trunk/src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 35 changes by Gavin
13:45<flitz>I noticed the game runs much faster (in fast mode), when I decrease the size of the main window. would it be an idea to add some limitations to the number of sprites being drawn/updated in fast mode ?
13:46<@Alberth>playing the game in fast mode is not much fun
13:46<@planetmaker>you'd perceive it as lag.
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13:47<@Alberth>you'd also get inconsistent graphics, people will report such glitches as bugs
13:49<flitz>ok, I don't even use the fast mode that much, mainly early when you still have to wait for money
13:50<flitz>regarding the inconsistencies, I was more thinking about animations on buildings or the surroundings that could be skipped in fast mode. vehicles should still be driving of course
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13:51<@Alberth>I believe moving vehicles cause about 90+% of the changes, so your optimization won't make a big dent in the speed.
13:51<Yexo>animation by newgrf buildings can't be skipped
13:52<Yexo>the newgrf can do anything during the animation, like computing some values needed for the production
13:52<flitz>it wasn't a very well thought out idea
13:53<@planetmaker>flitz: for a starter disable also full details and full animation ;-)
13:53<@SmatZ>and make trees invisible
13:53<@SmatZ>possibly buildings as well
13:53<Yexo>does that actually help?
13:53<@Alberth>look at the sea :)
13:53<Yexo>as in, don't the tiles still get marked as dirty anyway?
13:54<@planetmaker>less to draw possibly when a vehicle passes by
13:54<@Alberth>it saves rendering of the trees :)
13:54<@SmatZ>for trees and buildings, they are not made dirty unless they are animated
13:54<flitz>a little bit, yes
13:54<Cozzie>odd, i play on fast mode constantly and i dont see those oddities
13:54<+glx>rendering is not the biggest cpu eater
13:54<Yexo>yes, but does that make a notable difference? Not saying it doesn't, mainly wondering about it
13:54<@planetmaker>but I only found the full details + animation making quite some effect
13:54<@planetmaker>the others I never noticed a difference
13:54<flitz>glx: i suppose ai-computations are
13:55<flitz>just as a guess
13:55<@SmatZ>Yexo: it should be tested :)
13:55<Yexo>yes, AIs are one of the most cpu consuming parts
13:57<Cozzie>any plans to change the station rating critera?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>damn... when i synchronize the timetable of my freight train with the passenger trains, i can't synchronize the timetable between the freight trains. i think i need a new siding :(
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>Cozzie: can be changed by newgrf
13:58<Cozzie>i dont see any newgrf doing that though
13:58<Yexo>correct, there is no such newgrf
13:58<Cozzie>curiously why hasent anyone done so?
13:59<Yexo>because it takes times and they had other interesting things to do?
13:59<@Alberth>because they don't see those ratings as a problem?
14:00<Cozzie>for a simulation game i thought people would be more pedantic about it heh
14:00<Cozzie>seriously max spee of last ation entering staiton and age of vehicle is really absurd...
14:00<flitz>depends on what it is simulating :)
14:00<Cozzie>i guess i have a pendanticness for realism
14:00<@Belugas>Cozzie, thansk for your opinion. noted. now, move on
14:01<@Alberth>realism is not a goal of the game imho
14:01<@Alberth>hi Belugas!
14:01<Yexo>Cozzie: openttd is a game, not a simulator
14:01<@Belugas>sir Alberth :)
14:01<Yexo>and the station rating can only be part of a newgrf that defines cargos, which means it has to be part of an industry newgrf
14:01<Yexo>if you want to use ecs or firs it has to be part of that newgrf
14:02<Yexo>for the default industries you could write a custom newgrf of course
14:02<Cozzie>i see... understood
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14:05<Cozzie>btw belugas i felt that was with a bit of a rude tone =/ dint really appreciate it.
14:06<@Belugas>well... sorry, but I could retunr the compliment. Look back at what you wrote about the game, and you can see it can be quite irritating to hear those kind of comments
14:06<@Alberth>especially when you heard them a zillion times before :)
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14:08<@Belugas>but granted, when the "realism" keyword has been waved at me, i felt like a bull in front of a red cape...
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14:10<Cozzie|alt>heh thought i got kicked =P
14:11<@Belugas>nope, still there :)
14:11<@Belugas>both of you hehe
14:11<Cozzie|alt>heh, dced.
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14:13<Cozzie|alt>i do not want to flame for the sake of flaming and I do understand it can be irritaiting. I have been on your end before, however understand that there has been no mention in the wiki/faq that if it is a common question. Regarding the realism comment, i do understand that this game is far from a realistic simulator ala microsoft flight simulator
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14:14<Cozzie|alt> but the game and many of the grfs have depth and is provides great immersion due to it's relatively realistic approach. Please dont take this the wrong way that i want to argue for the sake of arguing but i just want to explain my position and was not my intent to piss you off or anything
14:14<@Belugas>well.. we do not have a published log on all the questions been asked
14:14<@Belugas>so it can be understandable
14:15<@Belugas>note that on forums, there were some discussions about the realism part
14:15<Yexo>Cozzie|alt: lately it hasn't been so bad, but there are people that argue "signals should work different, they're not realistic" and things like that
14:16<@Belugas>the thing is, realism just for sake of seeking realism is absurd in context of the game. It was never intended to be a realistic product
14:16<Cozzie|alt>there has to be a line drawn as this is inheritantly a game, not a simulator
14:16<@Belugas>people always tried to sneak in their ideas of features based on the conc ept that it would add realism
14:16<@Belugas>when it did not
14:16<@Belugas>indeed Cozzie|alt
14:17<Cozzie|alt>i guess signals would be the least of outrageous suggestions eh?
14:18<@Belugas>not outrageous, just think about what it would add to the game as per say, that would be a beter approach
14:18<@Alberth>Cozzie|alt: on the other hand, it is also fun to see that people that want realism suddenly want somewhat realistic things out of the game because it bothers them :p
14:18<@Belugas>yeah :D
14:18<@Belugas>that is also hilarious!
14:20<Cozzie|alt>then in my case, how do i increase my station rating?
14:21<Cozzie|alt>my livestock has fallen to 300 from 1500
14:24<@Belugas>... isn't it the other way around??
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14:25<Yexo>Cozzie|alt: well, see aforementioned wiki page:
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14:26<@Alberth>Belugas: *to* 300
14:27<@Belugas>ho... thanks... i'm on debuging mode, currently... falling in syntaxic mode...
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14:28<Cozzie|alt>Yexo: on that page but stuck on getting the theory to work in practice
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14:28<Yexo>make sure there is always a vehicle loading at the station
14:28<Yexo>buy a statue in the town if you haven't already done so
14:28<Yexo>and make sure the vehicle is the fastest you can buy
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14:30<flitz>to call inline functions from gdb: is it enough to configure with --enable-debug LVL=3 or do I need to set CFLAGS="O0" ?
14:32<Yexo>it's --enable-debug=3
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14:48<flitz>funny, stepping through the instructions of the game in gdb, makes my mp3player stop ...
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15:00<dpkendal>why is it not possible to view the cost of something while paused?
15:00<dpkendal>even though it's not actually going to happen, you still get "Not allowed while paused"
15:02<@planetmaker>then enable building while paused
15:04<@planetmaker>arguably the cost preview should work, but... it simply doesn't currently.
15:04<@planetmaker>If you want, make a feature request
15:06<@Alberth>or provide a patch :)
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15:07<dpkendal>planetmaker: yeah, i probably will. seems like something that should have been in the original TTD
15:08<@planetmaker>haha :-) TTD?
15:08<@planetmaker>I'm always amazed at the lack of convenient GUI when I start it every so seldom
15:09<@Alberth>does TTD even have a pause button? I cannot remember
15:09<@SmatZ>it has :) it doesn't have the fast-forward button
15:09<@planetmaker>I think so, but ^
15:09<flitz>it had busses, that I know
15:10<@planetmaker>it has all 4 basic transport types
15:10<@planetmaker>but no trams
15:10<@planetmaker>nor newgrf support ;-)
15:10<@Alberth>nor other signals :)
15:10<flitz>did it have groups ?
15:10<flitz>whow ! :D
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>TT has both pause and cost estimation, but i never tried both...
15:11<@Alberth>although I don't use groups in OpenTTD :)
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>it definitely didn't show a "not allowed while paused", but that only means it will be less missed ;)
15:11<flitz>how do you keep your stuff together then ?
15:12<@Alberth>it runs at the same tracks, and visits the same station, isn't that enough?
15:12<flitz>but groupwise vehicle-replacement for example
15:12<@Alberth>I just replace all
15:13<@Alberth>I play usually from 1950 to 1980-1990, then I get bored and quit :)
15:14<@Alberth>although in the past I have played longer
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15:14<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
15:14<flitz>thinking about it I must admit that replace all must work just fine
15:15<Wolf01>hi Alberth
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>i don't use groups for trains either. groups for road vehicles occasionally, but only when i have nothing better to do...
15:15<flitz>but I just like to neglect some smaller lines and keep deprecated vehicles running on them for a while :)
15:16<flitz>weird, I always thought groups where essential and now I read that nobody is using them...
15:17<Yexo>my AI is using them :p
15:17<Wolf01>I use them
15:17<@Alberth>it depends on your playing style perhaps
15:17<@Alberth>and how many vehicles you have
15:18<flitz>lol, Yexo
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15:21<flitz>but setting up groups for every line is a lot of work, maybe I will just try without them the next time
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>i tend to replace each train individually, because i can't trust the trains to find a depot by themselves
15:24<@Alberth>I have depots all over the place, since I play with breakdowns and servicing on :)
15:24<frosch123>[21:10] <flitz> did it have groups ? <- you do not need groups if you cannot even clone
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15:27<flitz>but one advantage of groups still is that you see at a glance how many vehicles you have on each line
15:32<@Alberth>is that interesting? you can also look at how many trains visit some key station if you want to known
15:32<@Alberth>I just make sure there is always a train loading, how many trains I need is not interesting to me
15:34<@Alberth>sorry to make groups useless ;)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>it is interesting how many trams are on one line, if you want to timetable them every N minutes
15:35<dpkendal>Something I've never known is whether fund new buildings and fund new roads affects your local authority rating -- does it?
15:35<@Alberth>how good are time tables with break downs?
15:35<flitz>it must be just a matter of being used to something
15:35<@Alberth>flitz: luckily there are many ways of playing the game :)
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15:36<flitz>I play with CargoDist (PAX) and when towns begin to grow my lines need more capacity. I somehow like to see the relation of the size and impact of my lines on a single screen, with pretty names to them too ;)
15:37<@Alberth>dpkendal: I think new roads are mostly for messing with your competitors. I don't know whether they affect town rating, you'll have to check the source for that
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i play without breakdowns
15:37<flitz>you may call me a controlfreak or burocrate now if you want :p
15:38<@Alberth>flitz: oh, Cargodist is a completely different game, have not played it much. It may well be that you need more administration then
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i guess it ranges from "bad" [you need to schedule appropriate catch-up times] to "terrible" [vehicles of the same timetable may overtake, so you'll never be able to catch up]
15:39<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: pity. I have the feeling breakdowns cause so much mess that time tables are useless then
15:39<@Alberth>at least I have not yet seen any useful effect with them :)
15:40<flitz>I'm out for today, see you
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>timetables are very useful for trams, because otherwise they tend to bunch up
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15:41<@Alberth>trains do that too, but slower :)
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but trams are least likely to overtake and screw up the timetable spacing :p
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16:07<WargH>Good eavning. I love the new option "Sea level Custom". But I'd like to know if anyone knows what the setting high equals in %. It would help me a bit with my experamenting on getting a map to my linking. I can't find any info about it in the Wiki.
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16:14<@Alberth>that would be world generation?
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16:18<@Alberth>_settings_game.game_creation.custom_sea_level * 1024 / 100;
16:18<@Alberth> /** Desired water percentage (100% == 1024) - indexed by _settings_game.difficulty.quantity_sea_lakes */
16:18<@Alberth>ie 100 == 100%, it seems
16:18<@Alberth>does that make sense?
16:19<@Alberth>please fix the wiki :)
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: he asked about the other settings low/medium/high, what percentages they would represent
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>at least that's how i understood the question
16:20<@Alberth>static const amplitude_t _water_percent[4] = {20, 80, 250, 400}; and apply * 100 / 1024
16:21<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: that information was nearby too :)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>@caöc 400*100/1024
16:21<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause, at least you understood the question ^^
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 400*100/1024
16:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 39.0625
16:22<@Alberth>my reading abilties rapidly decrease at these time of the day
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16:31<@Belugas>me too, Alberth
16:31<@Belugas>altough it's not the same time frame :)
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16:44<WargH>So if I understand you correctly high setting on sea level = aprox. 39% water?
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16:46<Yexo>that's what they told you, yes
16:47<Ruudjah>Who is Nathanael Rebsch?
16:47<Ruudjah>as in what nick does he use and does he hang around here?
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16:48<WargH>Thank you
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16:51<Richard52>Some russian here?
16:51<Yexo>probably yes, however this is an english only channel
16:51<Richard52>Sorry, i am here first time
16:51<Yexo>welcome :)
16:51<Richard52>Where is russian channel?
16:51<dihedral>Ruudjah, don't need a private chat ;-)
16:51<dihedral>feel free to chat publicly
16:52<Richard52>I have problems with OTTD
16:52*dihedral automatically read with an accent ^^
16:52<Yexo>I'm not aware of any russian channel. If you could try to explain your problem in english we might be able to help you
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16:52<Richard52>Does anyone know, where are files, where town names are?
16:53<Yexo>I assume you want russian town names?
16:53<Richard52>You are fast as hell
16:53<Richard52>Thank you
16:53<Richard52>So, where i can get it?
16:53<Yexo>start openttd, click on "check online content" in the bottom left of the main menu
16:53<+glx>I think there's a newgrf
16:53<Richard52>I know how to download addons
16:53<Richard52>what is the name of russian town names?
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16:54<Richard52>Where is Ukrainian, Turkish, german, lots of them
16:54<Richard52>where is russian?
16:54<@planetmaker>If it is available via online content it will be called Russian Town Names
16:54<Yexo>apparently it's not available in the online content system
16:55<Yexo>you could try this one:
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16:56<Ruudjah>I'm scared to chat here in public
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16:57<Yexo>hmm, that grf appears to be broken
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i need some cheap forklift kind of vehicle...
16:58-!-Richard52 [] has joined #openttd
16:58<supermop>ahh i was just showing andy the other day:
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>something that doesn't cost much, so i can let it run back and forth at a transfer station, to keep the rating up
16:59<Richard52>Sorry, i was looking for russian town names in game built-in downloader
16:59<Yexo>Richard52: I don't think any working russion town name grf is available
16:59<xvd>Was there a way to rotate the world view?
16:59<Richard52>So, what do you think, where i can get it?
16:59<Richard52>But i know russian packs
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16:59<Richard52>You even can download them
17:00<Yexo>are you using windows?
17:00<Richard52>there is russian town names
17:00<Richard52>I am using Windows 7 Ultimate
17:00<Yexo>download that pack with russian town names, extract it in "Documents\OpenTTD\Data" and restart openttd
17:00<@planetmaker>xvd: nope
17:00<Richard52>Maybe, i should look for it in data folder?
17:00<Yexo>after that it should be listed in the "NewGRF settings" window
17:01<@planetmaker>Richard52: there's a russian site dedicated to ttd / openttd and variations. They surely know
17:01<@planetmaker>where their grfs are to be gotten from
17:01<Richard52>There is a few people
17:01<Yexo>Richard52: there is no russian town names grf in the online content system, so you'll have to download it yourself with a web-browser
17:01<Richard52>How to upload it to online content system?
17:01<Lakie`>You don't the authors do
17:01<Richard52>I do not want others to have problems like i do
17:01<supermop>how about that one Eddi|zuHause
17:02<Yexo>you're not allowed to do that unless you are the creator of the grf
17:02<Richard52>Oh, please
17:02<Richard52>All russian community made that file
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: it's fairly useless unless it's in GRF form ;)
17:02<@planetmaker>sorry, the terms of service are clear
17:02<Richard52>everybody improves it
17:02<Richard52>it is open
17:02<Yexo>still there is probably one person who makes the last version, ask him/her to upload it
17:02<supermop>2 pixels wide, 6 pixels long
17:03<supermop>1 crate
17:03<supermop>5 mph
17:03<Yexo>you'll need an account on to upload content
17:03<Richard52>If i will make something, how to upload it?
17:04<@planetmaker>but please don't make us remove content again because you are not the author of what you uploaded
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17:05<Richard52>oh shit
17:05<Richard52>i copied everything as some guy said
17:05<Richard52>i activated all GRFs
17:05<@Alberth>isn't it in the game options?
17:06<@Alberth>there is 'town names' there
17:06<Richard52>and there is no "russian"
17:06<Richard52>but i toggled it on
17:06<Richard52>what does "gm" folder contain?
17:07-!-Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:07<@Alberth>usually music files
17:07<Richard52>Does lang files contain town names?
17:07-!-Lakie` is now known as Lakie
17:07<Richard52>where are they by defaukt?
17:08*Alberth thinks in game options
17:08<Richard52>not settings
17:08<Yexo>the default list of town names are encoded directly in the game, you can't change them
17:08<Yexo>there are no files for those
17:08<Richard52>where i can get it?
17:08<Richard52>omg, so hard
17:08<Yexo>all town name grfs are in the data/ directory (or downloaded_content/data/)
17:08-!-andythenorth [~andy@] has joined #openttd
17:09<Yexo>evening andy
17:09<@Alberth>oddinks andy
17:10*andythenorth has had a sad evening waiting for a tow truck :(
17:11*Eddi|zuHause has problems keeping a HEQS-related joke to himself
17:11<andythenorth>no share :P
17:11<andythenorth>it will help relieve my sadness
17:12<Richard52>what is hs.dat?
17:12<Richard52>in main folder
17:12<andythenorth>I think there are going to be downsides to owning the only model of a certain vehicle in the whole uk :P
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>Richard52: the high score table
17:12<Richard52>i have found file russian2w.grf
17:13<Richard52>it was just glyphs
17:13<Yexo>you can't edit a grf file with a text editor
17:13<@Belugas>bye all
17:13<Yexo>enjoy Belugas
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>bye Belugas
17:13<@Belugas>same for you guys :D
17:14<@Alberth>happy weekend Belugas
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, i was just discussing with supermop how i could really use a forklift-kind of vehicle right now. to boost rating at a transfer station
17:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: such a thing is possible
17:14<andythenorth>maybe not wise, but possible
17:15<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't the low speed of such a forklift vehicle be a disadvantage for the ratings?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: no, anything below 80km/h is irrelevant, afaik
17:15<@planetmaker>:-D high-speed forklift ;-)
17:15<Yexo>well, if you don't have a vehicle above 80km/h available, you're right
17:15<andythenorth>I have a vehicle in my garage that now goes 0mph
17:16<andythenorth>I suspect a shredded gearbox
17:16<andythenorth>I will now have to import spares from India :(
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: no, my freight trains won't be going beyond 80km/h for a long time... most go 50km/h
17:17<andythenorth>on the downside my vehicle is unique in the UK. On the upside there are about 1m of them in India
17:17<Yexo>that is one of the biggest disadvantages of the current station rating, that the vehicle speed is taken into account
17:17<andythenorth>is it?
17:17<andythenorth>that explains a lot in my games :)
17:17<andythenorth>change it...
17:17<Yexo>andythenorth: see
17:17<Yexo>any cargo newgrf can change it
17:18<Yexo>(yes, I'm hinting at firs :p)
17:18<andythenorth>maybe a ticket...
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>my biggest problem with rating is that it drops drastically if there's no vehicle for a few days
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>anything <30 days should keep the rating above 50%
17:19<Yexo>that too, but I always work around that by always having a vehicle on full-load in the station
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>but full load and timetables are not compatible
17:20<Yexo>I never use timetables, so that's not a problem for me
17:21-!-andythenorth [~andy@] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:21<Richard52>FUCK YEAH!
17:22<Richard52>I have found russian pack 1.1.0 WITH RUSSIAN TOWN NAMES! It's over 7.5 thousands!
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17:24<Richard52>Thank you guys!
17:24<Richard52>It is 1:24 in Russia now
17:24-!-WargH [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
17:24<Yexo>you're welcome, I'm glad you found a working version
17:24<Richard52>It is better to get in bed.
17:25<Richard52>You are awesome, community
17:25<Richard52>OpenTTD - one of best games ever
17:25<Richard52>(but i wtill have problems because i am newbie)
17:26<Yexo>you can pop in anytime to ask questions
17:26<Yexo>and don't forget to check the wiki, large parts are translation in russian already:
17:26<Ruudjah>what's the most developed admin interface for ottd?
17:26<Richard52>Sometimes I need google translate.
17:27-!-andythenorth [~andy@] has joined #openttd
17:27<Richard52>This is the reason I am looking for russian community.
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17:28<Richard52>help me now
17:29<Yexo>Richard52: did you see already?
17:29<Yexo>and their forums:
17:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what capacity for a forklift?
17:31<@planetmaker>Ruudjah: afaik it's joan / grapes:
17:31<@planetmaker>at least it gives you a java client which connects out of the box.
17:32<@planetmaker>But it does not actually do much. It has a (separate) PW change plugin but nothing more
17:34-!-Richard52 [] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!]
17:34<supermop>i also say 1
17:35<supermop>i also still lobby for the little 3 wheel fish market thing
17:36<supermop>would need a slower loding speed as the guy has to put the box on the back himself
17:36*andythenorth needs some feedback on new CHIPS
17:36<supermop>and high running cost due to drunk tourists stealing them for joyrides
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... cargodist is horribly confused by my vehicle that loads and unloads at the same station...
17:39<Ruudjah>java :)
17:39*Ruudjah cheers
17:40<supermop>goes out of service at end of line?
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17:43<Richard52>i am back, from client
17:44<Richard52>yexo, omg, you are developer
17:44<Yexo>yes, as are several other people in this channel :)
17:45<@Alberth>they walk around freely here :)
17:45<Richard52>So active developers
17:45<supermop>Andy, did you bring a vehicle home with you as a souvenir?
17:45<Richard52>so near to players
17:45<andythenorth>supermop: today I bought a vehicle home on a truck
17:45<andythenorth>with flashing lights
17:45<andythenorth>it was very dull, and is going to be expensive :P
17:45<Richard52>Developers, do you know about russian guy, who is developing 3D mode for OpenTTD?
17:46<Yexo>I don't know of any 3D mode for OpenTTD
17:46<supermop>if its the thing you showed me the other day, are they even legal in the uk?
17:46<andythenorth>sort of
17:46<andythenorth>it's a grey area :P
17:46<supermop>looked like a tuk tuk thing from thailand
17:46<andythenorth>I have a certificate saying it's legal
17:46-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has quit [Quit: join my irc at]
17:47<andythenorth>that comes up soon, dunno if it will pass
17:47<Richard52>Here is LINK:
17:47<Richard52>just press picture
17:47<supermop>i really like japanese kei cars, but they are essentially illegal here
17:47<supermop>some really old ones get grandfathered in
17:47<Richard52>flipped world
17:48<@planetmaker>good night
17:48<@Terkhen>good night
17:48<Richard52>Are you watching picture?
17:49<andythenorth>supermop: wagon r is legal in uk
17:49<Yexo>Richard52: it seems outdated and unfinished
17:49*andythenorth should go to sleep
17:49<Richard52>he is working
17:49<andythenorth>good night
17:49<Yexo>gn andy
17:49<@Alberth>there are several such attempts Richard52
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17:50<Richard52>He said, what he is annoyed doing it.
17:50<Richard52>By the way, say, it is cool
17:51<Yexo>yes, it's cool
17:51<Yexo>unfortunately there is no chance at all that it will work correctly with current newgrf sets
17:51<Yexo>which means by changing to 3d you disable a huge amount of custom content
17:52<Yexo>which is probably point 3 of his complains: "in-game graphics are not separated from the logic of places. " (that's from an automatic translation of the page)
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17:56<Richard52>Does anyone know about
17:57<Richard52>When i will have money, i will give it to YOU
17:57<Richard52>I am going in bed
17:57<Richard52>Why not?
17:57<Yexo>it's a useless system that requires manual work every day
17:58<Yexo>they say they'll pay you 0.01$ for every site you view or so
17:58<Yexo>my time is worth more than that
17:58<Richard52>I have Milticlicker. It clicks automatically.
17:58<Richard52>I do everything
17:58<Richard52>I launch it and do everything
17:58<Richard52>it can click more, than 1 profile
17:58<Yexo>do whatever you want, I won't join something like that
17:58<Richard52>i already have 17 dollars
17:59<Richard52>i just test it
17:59<Richard52>it does not require risk and money
17:59-!-xvd [] has quit [Quit: *]
17:59<Zuu>My work sounds more fun than that.
17:59<Richard52>if i will get money, i will give all of $50 to developers of OTTD
18:00<Zuu>But good luck if that is what you like to do.
18:00<Richard52>This is addictive job
18:00<Richard52>I am just 14
18:00<Yexo>Richard52: I develop for openttd because I find it fun, not to earn money
18:00<Yexo>all donations for openttd are used for the website / hosting the content etc.
18:00<Richard52>You guys are awesome
18:01<Richard52>i want to support your developing
18:01<Richard52>thank you
18:01<Zuu>If devs would get say $100/hour OpenTTD would have cost a hell lot of money to make.
18:01<Richard52>How much money do you get per month by donates?
18:02<Yexo>I don't know exactly
18:02<Zuu>But donates towards the servers are probably still welcome.
18:02<@Alberth>just enough to pay the bill for the server / hosting
18:02<Yexo>more than enough to pay for hosting costs
18:02<Richard52>it is good
18:02<Zuu>Then maybe a donation towards tt-forums is of higher usage.
18:03<Richard52>I have a friend
18:03<Richard52>his nickname is Nickware
18:03<Richard52>he is developer
18:03<@Alberth>Zuu: good point, tt-forums tends to be forgotten
18:03<Richard52>He made a program, which optimizes computers
18:03<Richard52>it was freeware
18:03<Richard52>but he lives in Saint-Petersburg, Russian
18:04<Richard52>There is problems with money
18:04<Yexo>Richard52: if you want to help: advertise the game among your friends, help them with any questions they might have, perhaps help with translating the wiki
18:04<Yexo>there are lots of ways to help that don't cost money at all
18:04<Richard52>This is the reason why he made his tool non-freeware
18:04<Richard52>Oh yeah? thank you
18:04<Richard52>i will translate the wiki
18:05<Richard52>Yexo, where are you from?
18:05<Richard52>Some russian here?
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18:05<Yexo>george, but he's not often on irc
18:05<Richard52>He is official developer?
18:05<Yexo>no, he's made the ECS grfs
18:06<Ruudjah>Richard52: what's rukoprikladyvayuschegosya and gustozameshanny?
18:06<Zuu>no, a list of official devs you find in the readme.txt
18:06<Yexo>or on the site:
18:06<Richard52>Ruudjah: what?
18:07<Ruudjah> aug 10 18:11
18:07<Yexo>I have to get up very early tomorrow, so goodnight from me too
18:08<Richard52>rukoprikladyvauschegosya - hand appluing
18:08<Richard52>hand appliyng
18:09<Richard52>Ruudjah: gustozameschanny - tangled
18:09<Ruudjah>that clears things up
18:11<Richard52>Guys, help
18:12<Richard52>Where can i get WYSIWYG for wiki?
18:12<Zuu>Why do you need that?
18:13<Zuu>Except for tables, there arn't much complicated codes.
18:13<Richard52>It is not very comfortable for me to edit code.
18:13<Zuu>You will probably do more harm if you use a WYSIWYG than editing the code directly.
18:14<Ruudjah>^^ such remarks infuriate me endlessly
18:15<Zuu>But then, I always write my HTML/CSS code line by line instead of using a point-and-click program. :-)
18:15<Ruudjah>It's #1 reason why I enthusastically start editing wiki's, then after 15 minutes I'm like "fraq it, this sucks, I'm constantly looking things up, and get distracted of actually editing"
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18:16<Ruudjah>instead of being busy with actual writing, I'm busy wasting braincycles on getting layout right
18:16<Zuu>Usually I only need to know how to write headlines and how to make links. More than that is mostly not needed to edit a wiki page.
18:16<Ruudjah>edit -> preview -> correct -> edit -> preview correct
18:17<Ruudjah>"oh wait I forgot to add this thing I just came up with"
18:17<Zuu>Sounds like yoo have too high ambitions about layouting in a wiki :-)
18:17<Ruudjah>simple stuff really
18:18<Ruudjah>add an image
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18:18<Ruudjah>go to upload image page, upload image, wait for 3 postbacks to return, lookup the wiki dsl how to actually add image (which is off course different on each wiki)
18:19<Ruudjah>edit->preview->correct->preview->resize->preview->layout on correct place of page->preview->syntax error->correct->preview
18:20<Ruudjah>I edited a few pages on ottd wiki, which I do about every year to conclude its too cumbersome
18:20<Ruudjah>then need another year to build up the enthusiasm again
18:21<Ruudjah>So I researched what needs to be done to write a decent wysiwyg editor for mediawiki
18:22<Ruudjah>conclusion: the mediawiki markup is such a big mess, you can';t even write a parser because there's this part of MW which is buildup usong all kinds of regexes which define the MW parsing
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18:22<Ruudjah>So in order to have decent wysiwyg editors, the MW markup needs to be changed first. Which is hell, since it must be translated at once
18:23<Zuu>Regular expressions are really useful when you learn how to use them.
18:23<Ruudjah>I got dragged away here
18:24<Zuu>I personally don't se a big issue that you have to preview your page to check your code. After all that is very similar to most how development work. But then I'm probably more a programmer type of person.
18:25<Ruudjah>So all the current wysiwyg editors are half assed editors restricted to making text bold, adding an alinea, basic stuff really, which can;t be extended to say adding templates because it would just make the mess 20 worse
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18:26<Ruudjah>the primary reason jimmy wales said no wysiwyg editor before 2013
18:27<Zuu><Ruudjah> So all the current wysiwyg editors are half assed editors restricted to making text bold, adding an alinea, basic stuff really, which can;t be extended to say adding templates because it would just make the mess 20 worse <--- Exactly my reason for why recommending sticking to the code. Less risk of messing up.
18:27<Ruudjah>The problem is: the wiki editors make me meta-think
18:28<Ruudjah>I want to think on the subject only, not be distracted on the "how"
18:28<Zuu>Most wysiwyg-editors in web-development tend to mess up the code and make it hard to use for manual code edits.
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18:29<Ruudjah>Which is exactly the reason why the development of the new markup is so hard; It must be human and machine readable
18:29<Ruudjah>because all the old MW editors don't like wysiwyg (afraid for change, or dont want to learn/change habits), which is fair, but postpones proper editors for the coming years
18:30<Ruudjah>editors -> I mean humans
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18:39<Wolf01>I think is better to understand the basic first, or it will happen like with MS Frontpage: a lot of people making web pages whose source was unreadable by a *standard* browser and by humans
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18:40<Wolf01>WYSIWYG is cool, but without basics (not WYSISYG) you can't understand where to put your hands if there is something you can't get with a WYSIWYG editor
18:40<Ruudjah>You are being very rude to people
18:41<Ruudjah>let me explain
18:41<Ruudjah>You ask average humans to learn a language to just edit a document
18:42<Ruudjah>would be somthing if MS Office, when you opened it, showed a message: "To use this program, please first learn the way the document is actually stored to disk"
18:42<Ruudjah>(dont take my remark about rude to serious)
18:43<Wolf01>I had to help peoples to change an ASP site code because they wanted to modify something using some WYSIWYG editor and they didn't understand how ASP worked, they only focused on the output
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18:46<Wolf01><Ruudjah> would be somthing if MS Office, when you opened it, showed a message: "To use this program, please first learn the way the document is actually stored to disk" <- no, but I think is better that you at least learnt the way to align a title without using spaces or how to use tabs
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18:48<Wolf01>I don't want to get people to learn PHP just to modify a wiki, but they can learn how to make titles and links, it's 5 minutes of their time wasted for something useful
18:49<Wolf01>WYSIWYG editors (especially bad ones) tend to use unneeded informations, such [[This is a link|This is a link]] instead of just [[This is a link]]
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21:19<__ln__>good morning
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23:53<supermop>any sprite artists around want to look at a wip?
---Logclosed Sat Apr 09 00:00:26 2011