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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-10

---Logopened Sun Apr 10 00:00:43 2011
00:29<Chris_Booth>nite I am 2 hours later XD
00:29<Chris_Booth>Nite I am 2 hours later XD
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03:08<andythenorth>windmill animation is very boring
03:09<Rubidium>maybe animate catastrophic blade failure?
03:10<andythenorth>ho
03:10<andythenorth>maybe
03:10<andythenorth>it would be much easier to animate a 'day without wind'
03:11<@Alberth>or have it rotate so fast you don't see the blades any more :)
03:11<andythenorth>tried that already :P
03:12<Rubidium>Alberth: fails when the game's paused ;)
03:13<@Alberth>time freezing is a bug in the program :)
03:13<andythenorth>Alberth: you could pull FIRS and give your opinion
03:13<andythenorth>?
03:14<@Alberth>besides, you can build new stuff while paused, so it is not that paused at all :p
03:16<@Alberth>pulling and building works with the latest grfcodec ! :p
03:17<@Alberth>let me have a look what version I played last
03:18<@Terkhen>good morning
03:19<@Alberth>good morning
03:19<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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03:25<@Alberth>something specific you want me to look at?
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03:36<andythenorth>Alberth: the windmill
03:36<andythenorth>it builds as a layout variation on the grain mill
03:36<andythenorth>it will be 1 tile on the map
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03:46<@Alberth>any year limitation for the windmill?
03:55<andythenorth>there will be
03:55<Ruudjah>what does it produce? energy, which can be loaded in battery equipped wagons, and discharged at drop stations?
03:55<andythenorth>not yet
03:55<andythenorth>Ruudjah: food :P
03:55<@Alberth>batteries only exist as cargo in toyland
03:56<Ruudjah>wagons with batteries would have same freight factor empty & full :P
03:58<@Alberth>I don't see any windmill yet
03:59<andythenorth>Alberth: doesn't appear on every map
04:00<andythenorth>if you restrict minimap to 'grain mill' only, you might find one near a town
04:00<andythenorth>it's pink on the minimap
04:00<andythenorth>single tile
04:08<@Alberth>ah found it. at 1024x1024 hilly, high towns, and high industries, 3 of 35 grain mills are wind mills
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04:09<@Alberth>you are so lucky the wind is coming from one direction only :p
04:09<@Alberth>at least, at first sight it does not look like you can turn the mill towards the wind :)
04:10<__ln__>can one fight windmills?
04:11<@Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windmill <-- they are usually more round
04:11<@Alberth>__ln__: OpenTTD does not do war
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04:12<@Alberth>http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1266329 <-- and 'squarish' mills rotate at a lower point
04:13<@Alberth>__ln__: you can remove them with the magic bulldozer :p
04:14<__ln__>magic bulldozer is not quite the same as a knight and his horse
04:14<andythenorth>Alberth: yes it's a square one
04:14<andythenorth>that's the way it came to me ;)
04:15<andythenorth>via zephyris and danmack
04:15<andythenorth>I'm not sure how it rotates
04:15<andythenorth>but if I look too deeply into that I have to repaint in depth...
04:16<@Alberth>it's possibly just me, I grew up with mills around me :)
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04:28<andythenorth>drawing a petrol pump is tricky
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04:50<Wolf01>'morning
04:57<yorick>can anyone reproduce a server crash when you kick yourself using rcon?
04:57<yorick>(1.1.0)
04:59<Yexo>yes
05:01<yorick>I remember that being fixed last year. someone un-fixed it?
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05:28<andythenorth>BROS sucks in another victim :P
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05:33<ZirconiumX>Hello all
05:33<ZirconiumX>Yexo, Is there a way for an AI to find out how much CPU it is using?
05:35<yorick>no
05:36<ZirconiumX>Evidently he is away
05:36<Zuu>You can count how many ticks an operation/algorithm takes.
05:36<Zuu>Mind that an AI by default have 10 000 op codes per tick.
05:36<ZirconiumX>thanks Zuu
05:37<Yexo>ZirconiumX: no
05:37<ZirconiumX>darn
05:37<ZirconiumX>ermmm
05:37<ZirconiumX>this is going to be fun
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05:38<Yexo>also number of opcodes != amount of cpu usage
05:38<ZirconiumX>http://mibpaste.com/XIGmt2
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05:39<ZirconiumX>sorry - Firefox quit unexpectedly
05:39<Yexo>I'm not known with D*, but the default A* library already has that functionality
05:40<ZirconiumX>Wouldn't it be a 'safety' to poll how much CPU it's using and 'die' if it uses too much?
05:40<ZirconiumX>w.r.t an AI
05:40<Yexo>that's very hard to do
05:41<Yexo>the opcodes are a relatively simple way to do approximately that
05:41<ZirconiumX>ah - ok
05:41<ZirconiumX>so
05:42<ZirconiumX>approx calculations = [number of ticks] x [number of opcodes / tick]
05:42<ZirconiumX>*approx*
05:42<ZirconiumX>@logs
05:42<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
05:42<Yexo>for a very broad definition of "calculation", yes
05:42<Zuu>Yexo: yes ticks/op codes aren't exactly CPU usage, but the closest I think ZirconiumX get to what he is looking for.
05:43<Yexo>agreed
05:43<ZirconiumX>Hmm
05:43<ZirconiumX>thank you
05:43<ZirconiumX>I'll scribble that down
05:44<Yexo>a lot of built in math functions (like sqrt, sin, cos, log, pow, exp) for example take 100 opcodes
05:45<ZirconiumX>Though it'll be a *bad* idea - I might set maxSteps to [number of ticks] x [number of opcodes / tick] / 16
05:46<ZirconiumX>yes - it would be a bad idea
05:46<Yexo>a pathfinder will take way more than 16 opcodes per step
05:46*andythenorth grumbles more about petrol station
05:46<Yexo>my guess would be something between 100 and 1000
05:46<ZirconiumX>I'll set it to a low setting - /10,000?
05:47<ZirconiumX>the thing is though
05:47<ZirconiumX>no path makes it cycle though quicker - pushing up maxsteps
05:48<ZirconiumX>the tortoise and runner problem
05:48<Yexo>set maxSteps to a tenth of what you want it to be, measure how many ticks that first tenth of the computation took and keep doing that until you go over your allotted amount of ticks
05:48<ZirconiumX>the guy who wrote it set it to 80,000
05:49<Yexo>what number you should use it completely dependend on how long each step takes and how many nodes there are in total
05:49*welshdragon leaves http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=54023 in the channel and runs
05:49<ZirconiumX>which is fine for a stand alone application - but too high for an application running alongside another
05:49<Yexo>that depends on how you encode a node (one tile or tile + direction)
05:50<ZirconiumX>I've been thinking about A*
05:51<ZirconiumX>If you had
05:51<ZirconiumX>node blank node blank node blank etc.
05:51<ZirconiumX>blank blank blank blank etc.
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05:51<ZirconiumX>node blank node blank etc.
05:51<ZirconiumX>Mr ARo!
05:52<LordAro>good morning
05:52<ZirconiumX>wouldn't that speed up A*
05:52-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.A98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:52<Yexo>what is "node" and what is "blank"? Why would that speed up A*?
05:52<ZirconiumX>as it has less calculations
05:52<ZirconiumX>node = a node
05:52<ZirconiumX>blank = no node
05:52<Yexo>so what does "node blank node blank node blank" mean?
05:53<ZirconiumX>node there, no node there, node there, no node there
05:53<Yexo>do you know that any pathfinder finds a route over connections between nodes?
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05:54<ZirconiumX>no
05:54<Yexo>sure, if you mark half the tiles on the map as "can't go there" you speed up A*
05:54<Yexo>however you also disable a lot of potential paths
05:54<Yexo>have you ever written a pathfinder at all?
05:54<ZirconiumX>no
05:54<ZirconiumX>I'm an idiot - I know
05:55<Yexo>start with that before trying to optimize something you don't fully understand
05:55<Yexo>you're not an idiot, you're just going too fast
05:55*ZirconiumX is embarrassed - my employer is watching
05:56<ZirconiumX>not work as such
05:56*LordAro lols
05:56<ZirconiumX>it's you I'm talking about
05:57<ZirconiumX>I'm in charge of a subject I *don't know about* in a language I *don't know about - ish*
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05:57<ZirconiumX>I wonder
05:58*ZirconiumX might know how to learn squirrel - would go against morals though
05:59<ZirconiumX>I've always wanted to code a chess engine - I have the squirrel compiler
05:59<ZirconiumX>that may make me more familiar - imagine an openttd chess engine
06:00*ZirconiumX is going off on one
06:00<Yexo>a decent chess engine is way harder than a decent pathfinder
06:00<ZirconiumX>who said that it had to be 'decent'
06:01<@Alberth>if that also holds for a pathfinder, the problem is way simpler
06:01<ZirconiumX>It'd get me used to creating tracks etc.
06:02<@Alberth>just lay track in a random direction
06:02<LordAro>anything i can do about this: http://pastebin.com/nb4NYBrZ ?
06:02<ZirconiumX>hah
06:02<Yexo>you can try submitting that bug report they ask you about
06:02<ZirconiumX>maybe
06:02<LordAro>Yexo: to gnu?
06:03<Yexo>to wherever you downloaded msys from
06:03<Yexo>or you mingw gcc version
06:03<ZirconiumX>I'll see what happens when I feed Xcode this - or whatever
06:03<Yexo>depending on what version of gcc you have I'd say it's very unlikely to get fixed though
06:04<LordAro>--version says 4.5.0
06:04<ZirconiumX>what version of GCC do you have
06:04<ZirconiumX>hmm
06:04<LordAro>much lag you have, mister ZirconiumX ;)
06:05<ZirconiumX>I'd typed that just before you said
06:05<ZirconiumX>I'd try - but GCC is broken
06:06<ZirconiumX>whenever I compile openttd source make complains
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06:07<ZirconiumX>It appears to be a broken ISO C++
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06:15<LordAro>hmm, same problem with 4.5.2... :(
06:18<Rubidium>LordAro: do you have enough free memory? If so, try if freeing some memory helps. Do you run compilations in parallel (make -jN, N > 1)? If so, try if not running im parallel (make -j1) helps.
06:19<Rubidium>the CF sometimes seems to trigger that (or a similar) crash, but most of the times it was transient and thusly I'd guess related to the amount free memory (knowing how the CF is configured)
06:20<ZirconiumX>svn is complaining
06:21<ZirconiumX>http://mibpaste.com/vrC3md
06:22<LordAro>you appear to have put 2 commands together
06:22<ZirconiumX>darn mibpaste
06:22<LordAro>use pastebin
06:22<LordAro>or at least not mibpaste
06:23<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/csDbaAzf
06:23<Yexo>try /trunk instead of /trunksvn
06:24<LordAro>Rubidium/whoever: updating my g++ seems to have worked, or, it hasn't finished compiling yet, but it's got past where it was failing
06:24<Yexo>the error message if pretty clear
06:24<ZirconiumX>sigh
06:25<Yexo>ZirconiumX: are you OTTDmaster on the devzone?
06:25<ZirconiumX>yes
06:25<Yexo>do you still want that D* project there?
06:25<ZirconiumX>yes
06:26<Yexo>ok
06:26<ZirconiumX>ty
06:26<ZirconiumX>whats it called?
06:26<ZirconiumX>ai-dstar?
06:28<Yexo>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ailib-dstar
06:28<ZirconiumX>thanks
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06:30<LordAro>possible report: when starting openttd (win32-mingw) without a graphics set, with './openttd -d5', it generates crash files
06:41<andythenorth>Improved petrol pump:
06:41<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=940859#p940859
06:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^
06:42<andythenorth>it's been a bit painful, I'm not 100% on the result
06:42<andythenorth>btw, a price sign doesn't seem to work
06:42<andythenorth>looks odd
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm, definitely an improvement over the previous one, though ;)
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06:47<Eddi|zuHause>the stripe on the roof is company coloured?
06:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22309 /trunk/src/ (aircraft_cmd.cpp roadveh_cmd.cpp ship_cmd.cpp): -Fix: Make road vehicles, ships and aircraft skip orders if they are leaving a depot and heading to the same one again; just like trains since r16322.
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06:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: yes
06:53<andythenorth>it was thicker earlier today, but it looked out of proportion to houses
06:55<andythenorth>I've abandoned ideas of trying to join it to road pieces, that's never going to work well
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that's probably right
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07:49<LordAro>anyone know why ./openttd -d5 isn't working - just crashes, without any crash files
07:49<LordAro>./openttd works fine
07:52<Ammler>and "./" does tell us, which version you use?
07:53<Ammler>works here with 1.1.0
07:53<Ammler>LordAro: also no error on the console?
07:54<LordAro>well, my slightly modified trunk
07:54<LordAro>and no
07:54<Ammler>then you should as first try to reproduce with "clean" trunk
07:54<ZirconiumX>what do you mean by 'slightly modified'?
07:56<LordAro>Ammler: ok, whats the way to revert patched files?
07:57<LordAro>ZirconiumX: this patch: http://pastebin.com/Rvs73Ejq
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07:58<LordAro>^ mr john shepard failed to hide himself i think :)
07:58<Ammler>LordAro: use mercurial mq
07:58<Ammler>if you insist on svn, you should use multiple checkouts
07:59<LordAro>maybe...
07:59<Ammler>a clean trunk and one for your patches
07:59<LordAro>stuff it, i'm getting hg now
08:00<Ammler>oh, you got admin rights on the pc now?
08:01<ZirconiumX>stay with svn
08:01<ZirconiumX>trust me
08:01<LordAro>Ammler: no, different pc, different place
08:01<ZirconiumX>hg is slower
08:02<ZirconiumX>well not as such
08:02<LordAro>and besides, i had hg anyway, albeit on a portable command prompt
08:02<ZirconiumX>it just looks at *every* commit first
08:02<Ammler>ZirconiumX: oh, you develop so fast?
08:02<ZirconiumX>compiling takes forever
08:03<Ammler>yes, the uses vcs matters quite much for compiling
08:03<Ammler>used*
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08:03<LordAro>ammler: hg can import svn patches can't it?
08:03<ZirconiumX>haven't tried git
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08:03<ZirconiumX>yes
08:04<ZirconiumX>you can patch hg with svn
08:04<Ammler>LordAro: as said, I would use MQ, dunno if that is too advanced :-)
08:04<ZirconiumX>(code)
08:04<LordAro>Ammler: for now, yes.
08:04<Ammler>then you can enable/disable & combine patches quite easy
08:04<LordAro>i'll look into it again
08:05<Ammler>start with "hg help mq"
08:06<Ammler>most important are qnew, qpush and qpop, the rest you learn when needed :-)
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08:10<Ammler>ZirconiumX: just in case, you didn't notice the irony, the used vcs does not matter for compiling
08:10<ZirconiumX>no
08:11<Ammler>except maybe findversion.sh
08:11<@Alberth>ZirconiumX: svn is useless as version control system unless you have commit access
08:12<@Alberth>with hg you can actually manage your patches
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08:13<@Alberth>LordAro: how is the readme patch going?
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08:13<LordAro>http://pastebin.com/Rvs73Ejq
08:14<Ammler>wow
08:16<@Alberth>so you copy/pasted the newgrf parameter window?
08:16<LordAro>yes :) i will change it at some point
08:16<LordAro>honest...
08:17<@Alberth>no problem, you have to start somewhere
08:17<@Alberth>in this way you have something that works, which may be easier than building something from scratch
08:18<LordAro>my thoughts exactly
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09:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... building materials: rather in open, closed or tank wagon?
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>grfcodec doesn't happen to have a bitmask-escape?
09:44<Rubidium>no(t yet)
09:46<Rubidium>what classes of building materials?
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>seems the glass works and the cement mill produce building materials
09:47<Rubidium>those concrete blocks and concrete floor panels should go on an open wagon, concrete mix (sand + gravel + cement) in tank wagons, ...
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>i should suggest the saw mill to do so, as well...
09:47<Rubidium>I've only seen closed pilkington trucks
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>ah, no, there's also a processor for wood->wdpr->bdmt
09:48<Rubidium>(Pilkington = glass)
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>so there seems to be glass, cement and wood as possible candidates for building materials... don't see a metal based one (yet)
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause>glass, wood, cement and bricks, no metal...
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10:50<ZirconiumX>@logs
10:50<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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10:54<@Alberth>ZirconiumX: you are aware of the 'bookmarks' feature of your browser?
10:55<ZirconiumX>and the logs are not an important thing to ad
10:56<Yexo>they seem important enough for you to visit them regularly
10:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22310 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Codechange: Derive DropDownListCharStringItem from DropDownListStringItem.
10:57<ZirconiumX>I'm revisiting the comments about D*
10:59<@Alberth>openttd is not completely known ?
11:00*ZirconiumX wonders why frosch is so good at alliteration
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>he didn't write "drom"
11:00<ZirconiumX>and?
11:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22311 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Add: DropDownListStringItem::NatSortFunc() which can be used as comparator function in DropDownList::sort().
11:01<ZirconiumX>not all alliterations use the same letter all the time - just most
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11:03<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: i'm questioning your insinuation that he actually wanted to write an alliteration
11:04<frosch123>ZirconiumX: because i am qualified in Latin
11:05<ZirconiumX>Aaaargh! HG is being a
11:05<ZirconiumX>damned nuisance
11:07*Alberth is very happy with HG
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11:07<ZirconiumX>abort: /Users/ralphbrades/DStar/.hgignore: invalid pattern (relre): *.tar
11:08<ZirconiumX>abort: /Users/ralphbrades/DStar/.hgignore: invalid pattern (relre): **.tar
11:08<ZirconiumX>Lord Aro could do it with AroAI
11:08<@Alberth>\*\.tar$
11:09<ZirconiumX>ty
11:12<@Alberth>oh, the \* is wrong, unless you want to match the files ending with "*.tar" literally
11:12<@Alberth>you need \.tar$
11:14<Ammler>ZirconiumX: maybe you better use glob, as you seem not able to manage regex and then blame hg ;-)
11:14<@Alberth>Ammler: good point
11:15<ZirconiumX>lol
11:15<ZirconiumX>I misspelled syntax
11:17<ZirconiumX>hah
11:17<ZirconiumX>? .hgignore
11:18<@Alberth>hg add .hgignore ; hg commit :)
11:19<@Alberth>or add \.hgignore in the file as well :)
11:19<Ammler>lol
11:19<@Alberth>which has the benefit that everybody can set his own ignored files, instead of having to agree on the set between all developers
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>the latter has the problem you need to move it to all other checkouts manually ;)
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a .hgignore.local for that ;)
11:20<Ammler>Alberth: the purpose of the .hgingore is excatly that
11:20<Ammler>you can still have your own rules in your local hgingore
11:20<ZirconiumX>ingore?!?
11:20<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: there is
11:21<ZirconiumX>Sounds like botched surgury
11:21<@Alberth>Ammler: oh, it has a section for each user or so?
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11:21<@Alberth>oh, there are 2 such files :) nice
11:21<Ammler>Alberth: you really aren't aware of possiblity to setup local hgignore?
11:22<@Alberth>nope, I don't share my hg repos
11:22<Ammler>:-P
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11:23<ZirconiumX>gah
11:23<ZirconiumX>I've commited
11:23<ZirconiumX>and it doesn't show up
11:23<Ammler>ui.hgignore should tell you more
11:23<Yexo>do hg push
11:24<Yexo>and make sure next time to describe the problem better, like where you expected it to show up
11:24<Ammler>ZirconiumX: hg is like client and server in one, push/pull to sync with other hosts
11:25<ZirconiumX>hurrah
11:25<Ammler>also if you work with others on same repo, it is helpful to pull right before commit again
11:27<Ammler>ZirconiumX: I would not add a rev number to the commit message
11:27<Ammler>not like git, hg has its local numbers, that could confuse
11:28<ZirconiumX>the thing is though
11:29<ZirconiumX>it's easy to search rn
11:29<Ammler>either work with rev number of the main repo (devzone in that case) or use something else
11:29<ZirconiumX>as it looks in the description
11:29<Ammler>hg log does not show you a number?
11:29<Ammler>your commit is btw. rev 0, not 1 :-)
11:30<ZirconiumX>I know - I saw
11:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22312 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp:
11:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Codechange: Add GameOptionsWindow::BuildDropDownList() for construction of all dropdown lists in the GameOptionsWindow.
11:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: Sort the items in the currency dropdown; separate the "Custom" item with a horizontal line from the rest.
11:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: Separate default and NewGRF-supplied townnames with a horizontal line and only sort them within these groups.
11:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix: Resize all dropdown lists in the GameOptionsWindow, so no text is truncated.
11:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22313 /trunk/src/strings_func.h: -Cleanup (r22312): Remove some dead code.
11:30<Ammler>well, up to you, you have been warned :-P
11:31<Ammler>openttd adds svn rev because as they started hg converts, nobody knew hg
11:32<Ammler>(and for openttd, svn is still "master")
11:37<Ammler>frosch123: does this mean, i can trash my swisstowns grf?
11:39<Ruudjah>openttd switched to hg?
11:39<Yexo>no, but there have been hg copies of the svn repo for a very long time: http://hg.openttd.org/
11:40<Yexo>Ammler: what did swisstowns.grf do?
11:40<Ruudjah>ah, ok
11:40<Ammler>Yexo: mainly fix openttd swisstowns
11:41<Ammler>and extend
11:41<@peter1138>git ftw!
11:41<Yexo>r22312 made no changes to the actual town name generators
11:41<Ammler>well, it sounds like after that, my grf wont replace the swiss menu entry anymore
11:42<Yexo>did it ever do that?
11:42<Ammler>of course :-)
11:42<Ammler>if you had same name, that was the whole idea behind
11:43<Ammler>that was the reason, I added the translations to my grf
11:43<Yexo>swiss is no twice in the list
11:43<Ammler>no
11:43<Ammler>well, maybe it will be now, which makes it useless
11:44<Yexo>"swiss" the openttd version), "swiss" (newgrf version) and "swiss (extreme)" (also newgrf version)
11:44<Ammler>Yexo: that was pre r22312 already?
11:45<Yexo>no
11:45<Yexo>that is since r22312
11:45<Yexo>in r22308 (a build I just had handy) there are only 2 "swiss" and "swiss (extreme)"
11:45<Yexo>it's not easy to tell whether that's the openttd version or newgrf version
11:45<Ammler>ah, it should have beend "Swiss" for the fix and "Swiss (extreme)" for the extend
11:46<Ammler>but I merged those with the nml conversion
11:46<Ammler>why should I add the newgrf but then still use the openttd list?
11:47<Yexo>because one newgrf could add multiple town names lists, and you can add multiple town names grfs
11:48<Ammler>you could drop the whole list if town name newgrf is added, imo :-)
11:48<Ammler>(the whole openttd names*)
11:48<Yexo>Ammler: what if someone decides to bundle town names with vehicles? You wouldn't be able to use the vehicles without the town names part
11:48<Yexo>think canset or similar
11:49<Ammler>well, then keep it pre r22313 style
11:49<Ammler>I see no sense to split those, why do you want that?
11:51<Ammler>hopefully you have the newgrf entries at least on top :-)
11:51<Yexo>of course not ;)
11:53<frosch123>[17:41] <Ammler> well, it sounds like after that, my grf wont replace the swiss menu entry anymore <- i don't see how that could have worked before :o
11:53<Yexo>neither do I, but it did work
11:53<Ammler>frosch123: ask glx
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11:55<Ammler>I just checked, the fix was not serious, just added 2 towns and "my" Amden :-)
11:56<Ammler>frosch123: it simply sorted the list and dropped double entries somehow
11:56<Ammler>also it was per language, I had to translate it for every openttd language to drop the openttd entry
11:57<Ammler>but the idea was that you were able to "overrule" openttd town names
11:58<Yexo>ah, the old code used a std::map
11:58<frosch123>well, it must have assigned the same string id somehow
11:58<Yexo>Ammler: was that ever a feature or just a never-fixed bug?
11:58<Ammler>of course, a feature
11:58<Ammler>well, ask glx
11:58<Yexo>frosch123: no, StringIDCompare calls StringIDSorter which does strcmp
11:58<frosch123>Yexo: openttd.cfg stores the name as text
11:58<Yexo>after GetString()
11:59<Yexo>so it actually did compare the actual strings, not the ids
11:59<frosch123>[17:58] <frosch123> Yexo: openttd.cfg stores the name as text <- actually wrong
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11:59<Ammler>I thought I fixed typos and such with my grf too, but that isn't the case, so it is partially false alarm or me ;-)
11:59<Ammler>of*
12:00<Yexo>I still think overriding the default town name generators with a newgrf one is a bug
12:00<+glx>openttd.cfg stores the ID using the enum if possible
12:00<frosch123>well, now you can choose between the original swiss towns and the newgrf swiss towns :)
12:00<Ammler>Yexo: you can disable efault vehicle, why shouldn't you be able to replace default town list?
12:00<frosch123>you can also easily tell which are original, and which from newgrf
12:00<frosch123>imo it is more transparent now
12:01<Yexo>because there is no reason to do so? you won't see the default town names in-game if you select the newgrf town names
12:01<Ammler>frosch123: again, why should I add the swiss towns grf and then chose the openttd list?
12:01<Yexo><Yexo> Ammler: what if someone decides to bundle town names with vehicles? You wouldn't be able to use the vehicles without the town names part
12:01<frosch123>Ammler: then you would remove all original town names when newgrf ones are present
12:01<Ammler>Yexo: that was the answer to my "drop all openttd lists"
12:01<Yexo>besides that the previous way of overriding (by comparing the actual strings) was broken
12:02<Ammler>it worked here
12:02<Yexo>if overriding was possible it should be done on a per-id basis, not by comparing the names
12:02<Yexo>Ammler: only until a new translation was added to openttd
12:02<Ammler>yell, then you have both entries
12:02<Ammler>like now
12:02<Ammler>so nothing is lost :-)
12:03<Yexo>and now it's consistent
12:03<Ammler>well, split is fine, but do at least change the sorting and the newgrfs on top
12:03<Ammler>so the "unsupported" lists are shown as less priorized
12:04<Yexo>I have no objection to that but I'll leave it to frosch123 if he wants to do it
12:04<frosch123>newgrf ones on top makes sense
12:05<Ammler>or you need to accept patched according to town lists ;-)
12:05<Ammler>patches*
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12:06<Yexo>those break old savegames, so unless it are fixes for typos no
12:07<Ammler>:-o
12:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22314 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Change: Put NewGRF supplied townnames at the top of the dropdown list.
12:08<frosch123>gah, forgot the comment :s
12:10<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22315 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Fix (r22314): Update comment as well.
12:10*Ammler wonders, if that needs adding a comment to the menu entry so it is obvious
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>could someone review these refit masks for me? :) http://pastebin.com/rF1w2c3G
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12:15<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: the bits depend on the cargo translation table you use
12:16<frosch123>Yexo: unfortunately eddi overrides the refitmask of vehicles defined in another grf. and they use the translation table of the other grf in that case. and that other grf has no translation table
12:17<frosch123>maybe we should fix that :p
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12:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah. i need to use the raw cargo bits: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nfo/ids.pnfo#L146
12:17<frosch123>but does not sound easy
12:17<Yexo>ah, ok
12:17<Yexo>fixing that will lead to problems with existing adapter sets
12:18<frosch123>are you sure?
12:19<Yexo>no
12:19<frosch123>you could say something: first try the original translation table, but allow defining an own one
12:19<frosch123>anyway, afaik it only affects the refitmask property
12:20<frosch123>action123 use the translation table from the grf defining the action3 anyway
12:20<Yexo>so (A) CTT of original grf, (B) CTT of overriding grf, (C) cargo bit instead of just (A) and (C)
12:20<frosch123>hmm, i guess current code would even apply the ctt of overriding grf to the original grf's refitmask, if it defines an action3
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think it should do that...
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>but these dbxl-addendums can't use an action 3, because it can't access the action 2 chain of the original grf
12:23<Yexo>at that point it's impossible to determine which grf set the refitmask
12:26<frosch123>maybe we could just add a refitmask_grfid to GRFTempEngineData
12:32<LordAro>in 'struct name : public Window' what does the ': public Window' mean? or at least, what should i search for?
12:32<Yexo>inheritance
12:33<Yexo>it means "name" is a subclass of "Window"
12:33<LordAro>ty
12:34<LordAro>on a completely unrelated note, what does the Stop() function in NoAI do? and when is it called, etc?
12:35<Yexo>nothing and never
12:35<LordAro>so why is it required?
12:35<Yexo>it's not
12:36<LordAro>thought it was :)
12:36<Yexo>a few years ago it was
12:36<Yexo>but that was changed even before the merge to trunk
12:37<LordAro>so why does it still exist? or is it just being 'defined' by developer, not the API?
12:37<Yexo>who days it still exists?
12:38<Yexo>there is no trace of it in the openttd code
12:38<Yexo>at least none that I can find
12:38<LordAro>http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:TestAI :) - i shall remove it, yes?
12:39<Yexo>sure
12:40<LordAro>done :)
12:40<LordAro>out of interest, what was it for?
12:41<Yexo>to make an AI stop running of course
12:41<Yexo>openttd did not stop AIs automatically at that time
12:41<Yexo>it just called Stop() and the AI had to make sure it would stop
12:41<LordAro>by a divide by 0 or something?
12:42<Yexo>no, by setting a flag they would check in their mainloop
12:42<LordAro>i see
12:42<LordAro>thanks for the info :)
12:42*LordAro makes a note to delete Stop() from AroAI
12:44<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/refitmask_grf.diff <- Eddi|zuHause: interested in testing that?
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12:48<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: what would i look for when testing?
12:51<frosch123>whether you can use a cargo translation table
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12:52<Eddi|zuHause>for reference: the cargos with my modifications above, without out this patch: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%20Transport,%206th%20Dec%201935.png
12:53<Yexo>why alcohol/milk also in the goods van?
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: because MB insists on milk being transported in cans. and the goods van has a "beer" refit
12:54<Yexo>ok
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12:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: which version of FIRS did you test?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: something a few weeks ago
12:58<andythenorth>I changed junk yard production on 19th March to reduce it.
12:58<andythenorth>could reduce it further, just wondering which version you had...
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>date: Sun Mar 27 18:52:47 2011 +0100
12:59<andythenorth>ok you have the newer
12:59<andythenorth>which means I might reduce it further
12:59<andythenorth>I have the same conclusion as you
13:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm surprised you were short of farms.
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>you really only need a few tons per month, to boost metal production
13:00<andythenorth>I don't tune for 'low industry'
13:00<andythenorth>but on 'normal' there are usually plenty of farms
13:01<andythenorth>maybe the clustering effect doesn't scale well with 'low'
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not really "short", i.e. there were some, but the ratio doesn't seem right
13:01<andythenorth>'low' or 'very low'?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>low
13:01<andythenorth>I'm not really going to do anything about 'very low'
13:01<andythenorth>do you remember the terrain type?
13:01<andythenorth>not that it affects farms much...
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>it says "mountaneous", but with the height level patch, it's fairly flat terrain
13:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: on 'low' the clustering is hugely ineffective for farms
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13:03<andythenorth>it works to some extent, but not in every case
13:03<andythenorth>and only produces clusters of 2-3 farms together
13:03<andythenorth>:(
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>what's also a little bit disturbing me is that the secondary industries are in the middle of nowhere, they should cluster around larger towns (>2000 inhabitants, with some chance of outside)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>but that might not fit everybody's playing style
13:05<andythenorth>too co-ercive
13:05<andythenorth>if it bothers you, patch FIRS, or set up a scenario ;)
13:05<andythenorth>or patch ottd
13:06<andythenorth>;)
13:06<andythenorth>on 'normal industry' farms cluster in groups of 2-7, which is better
13:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ideas for second building materials industry?
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not sure about that...
13:09<andythenorth>me neither ;)
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: with patch applied: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%20Transport,%206th%20Dec%201935_1.png
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: with MAIL and MNSP swapped in CTT: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%20Transport,%206th%20Dec%201935_1.png
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: with MAIL and MNSP swapped in CTT: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Werrakirchen%20Transport,%206th%20Dec%201935_2.png
13:17<andythenorth>what are we patching?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: CTT support for "i modify other GRF"-GRFs
13:17<andythenorth>interestink
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: addon GRFs like dbxl_firs
13:18<andythenorth>the discussion about cargo refittability cb was useful....
13:18<andythenorth>I don't think the questions were answered though :o
13:18<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/cargo_refit_cb
13:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: so, it works?
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>on first glance, seems to do
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>the unmodified mail van still carries mail
13:21<frosch123>ok, thanks
13:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22316 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: [NewGRF] When determining refittability use the cargo translation table of the GRF setting the refitmask instead of the GRF defining the action 3.
13:22<andythenorth>how cunning
13:22<andythenorth>so old grfs could be patched for cargo support?
13:22<andythenorth>in a better way than previously...
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: slightly better: doesn't have to rely on raw cargo bits anymore, but still can't affect graphics
13:23<andythenorth>graphics are overkill anyway
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>(or must include complete graphics)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i think FIRS has no "Goods" that would fit into a tanker wagon
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i think i should remove it
13:25<andythenorth>up to you ;)
13:25<andythenorth>I concur though
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>the original DBSet has goods, because it may come from refinery
13:26<andythenorth>sometimes I wish grfcodec would read my psds directly :P
13:27<andythenorth>anyone want some easy Sunday nfo fun?
13:28<andythenorth>I want to locate petrol station next to any road tile
13:28<andythenorth>I have most of cb28 hooked up
13:28<andythenorth>there are two layouts, 1x2 and 2x1
13:29<andythenorth>I might need cb22 instead, haven't figured it out yet
13:29<andythenorth>if it's north tile only, I think cb28 will do
13:29<andythenorth>but I am happy if any tile is adjacent to a full road piece
13:29*andythenorth thinks cb22 in that case
13:30<andythenorth>cb2f /s
13:31*andythenorth is puzzled by this one
13:31<andythenorth>I need to allow construction if *any* tile is adjacent to road
13:31<andythenorth>but I need to run the check for every tile
13:31<andythenorth>not sure how to disallow :o
13:31<andythenorth>I can't use registers at this point
13:31<frosch123>there is only a check for the north tile
13:31<frosch123>iirc
13:32<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Custom_shape_check_2F_
13:32<andythenorth>should do it
13:32<andythenorth>I use it in other place
13:32<andythenorth>s
13:33<frosch123>oh sorry, somehow i thought the discussion was abuot houses :o
13:33<frosch123>do you also have a house set in progress? :p
13:34<andythenorth>not me
13:34<andythenorth>I have avoided that :D
13:35<andythenorth>so I need to allow construction if any tile is adjacent to road
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>haha, there's a feature in swedish houses that displays a christmas tree on the small square in december :p
13:36<Ruudjah>^^ this stuff made me a TTD addict
13:36<frosch123>andythenorth: you could also define it to be built on top of houses
13:36<andythenorth>true
13:36<frosch123>like the default banks
13:36<andythenorth>that's how it's currently done
13:36<frosch123>usualy houses are next to roads :)
13:36<andythenorth>I want to allow it out of town
13:36<frosch123>oh
13:37<andythenorth>I like the idea of petrol stations and hotels in the middle of the desert ;)
13:37<andythenorth>hmm
13:38<andythenorth>no registers at this point :(
13:38<@planetmaker>good evening
13:38<andythenorth>hello planetmaker
13:39<andythenorth>hmm
13:39<andythenorth>I do have the layout number, so I could do checks in specific directions from the N tile
13:39<andythenorth>that will work
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22317 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by Yexo
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by Rubidium
13:49<Zuu>I tried a game with OpenGFX+ for the first time. Must say it is really well made. Not too complicated but still provides nice extra graphics etc.
13:50<Zuu>It could maybe have a second generation of wagons halfway between 1950 and monorail for some added fun, but I guess the policy is to not add any extra wagons/engines, only refits, graphics etc.
13:52<Ruudjah>what (OSS) IDE's are good picks to develop OpenTTD on?
13:52<Ruudjah>(C++)
13:55<Ruudjah>previously I used MSVS, but won't use that any more
13:56<@planetmaker>Zuu: agreed on 2nd generation of wagons being nice
13:56<@planetmaker>it's not so much about policy (they could have very similar properties, or just slightly larger or so), but... about just not yet drawn nor implemented
13:57<Zuu>I guess the second generation should only be slightly better or it would skew the balance (as if there was one ;-) )
13:57<@planetmaker>yep
13:57<@Alberth>Ruudjah: there is no universal agreement on such things. Just use one that you like.
13:58*glx likes visual studio
13:58*Alberth likes gvim + a terminal
13:58<Zuu>VS is good but not OSS (which is what Ruudjah asked for)
13:58<@Terkhen>Ruudjah: if you are using windows you can only use visual studio or an IDE that uses mingw/msys such as code blocks or qt creator
13:59<@Terkhen>I used notepad++ and a msys terminal
13:59<Zuu>Or you get virtual box and a virtual linux machine :-)
13:59<+glx>I use notepad++ too
13:59<@Alberth>Ruudjah: you definitely want an editor that shows the difference between TAB and SPACE, and shows trailing whitespace
14:00<Ammler>Zuu: then you do rather the opposite
14:00<Ammler>else you are the whole time on the vm ;-)
14:00<Zuu>:-p
14:01<Ruudjah>few months back removed as much proprietary software as possible, switched to ubuntu
14:01<Ruudjah>Have virtualbox+w7+MSVS available, but want to eliminate need for it
14:02<@planetmaker>kate works for me
14:02<@Terkhen>on linux I use gedit + terminal :)
14:02<frosch123>an "ide" can be very different things
14:02<Ruudjah>for me personally, it's absolutely a must to have an IDE as opposed to an editor
14:02*andythenorth just fights xcode a lot
14:02<andythenorth>but that's no use to the rest of you
14:02<frosch123>some prefer lightweight stuff, some prefer monsters like eclipse
14:02<andythenorth>brrr
14:02<andythenorth>hmm
14:03<Ruudjah>I have experience with Eclipse, now looking into CDT
14:03*frosch123 uses geany (also a lightweight one)
14:03<Ruudjah>(C++ for eclpse)
14:03<Ammler>Ruudjah: a linux console is part of an IDE :-)
14:03<andythenorth>we discussed a way to get count of industry type per town. frosch123 do you remember any conclusion of that?
14:03<@Alberth>Ammler: a linux desktop is an ide :)
14:03<Ammler>or so :-)
14:03<Ruudjah>eclipse==monster?
14:03<frosch123>no
14:03<@Terkhen>I'll make a note of checking geany, I'm interested on alternatives to gedit :)
14:04<andythenorth>frosch123: me neither
14:04<Ruudjah>I of intergrated is important for me
14:04<frosch123>Ruudjah: "monster" as in "huge"
14:04<@Alberth>it has crappy editors imo
14:04<frosch123>"huge" as in "most of its users only know about 10% or so"
14:04<Ammler>Ruudjah: what exactly do you need from IDE?
14:04<@Alberth>frosch123: and I am trying to keep it that way :p
14:04<Ammler>debugger?
14:05<@Alberth>auto completion hints
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14:05<frosch123>[20:04] <Alberth> frosch123: and I am trying to keep it that way :p <- what's the context of that line?
14:05<Ruudjah>1. intellisense, 2. live debugging, 3. quick navigation through code
14:05<Ruudjah>^^autocomplete
14:06<Ammler>there is another java ide than exclipse, abit "lighter"
14:06<@Alberth>(20:07:36) frosch123: "huge" as in "most of its users only know about 10% or so" <-- that line :)
14:06<Ammler>netbeans
14:06<Ruudjah>for java, eclipse fits quite well
14:06<frosch123>Ruudjah: yes, a lot of "ide"s have those standard functions
14:06<frosch123>but some need 3 minutes to scan the code, and some need 10 seconds
14:06<@Alberth>and 3 is not so important, C++ is not Java
14:07<Ruudjah>uh
14:07<@Alberth>you normally edit 2 or 3 files at most
14:07<frosch123>Alberth: but you look up stuff in 20 files
14:07<Ruudjah>ah yes, I remember ottd devs try to cram as much code into one file as possible
14:08<@Alberth>frosch123: grep :)
14:08<@Alberth>Ruudjah: there is structure :)
14:08<Ruudjah>true, but most (all?)projects I dev/devved for do other way around
14:09<Zuu>But *too* many files in the same directory make them take up the whole screen when you <tab> to open in vim. :-)
14:09<Ruudjah>Ill give netbeans a try, does it have c++ support out of the box?
14:10<Ammler>I just said "there is", I don't use it :-)
14:10<frosch123>Alberth: i have no real opinion on that vim stuff. everyone who i have been seen using it, had obviously no idea about it, completely misconfigured it, resulting in it being only crap
14:10<Ruudjah>Ammler: I asked 'good picks' :P
14:10<frosch123>same for emacs/xemacs users
14:10<frosch123>i just do not know anyone who uses it effectively :)
14:11<@Alberth>frosch123: that's the challenge :)
14:11<@Alberth>Ruudjah: true, but most (all?)projects I dev/devved for do other way around <-- perhaps because OpenTTD is already quite old?
14:11<Ruudjah>I take IDE quite literally, becoming stressed when functions are not yet in there (plugins etc, insane default settings)
14:12<Zuu>That's why I never recommend anyone to use vim as most people are not motivated to learn enough to make good use of it.
14:12<Ruudjah>I of integrated completely literally
14:12<frosch123>Ruudjah: so you prefer an "ide" which has as many functions as possible
14:12<Ruudjah>e.g. a button "download openttd code, compile it, and run it"
14:13<Ruudjah>not necessarily
14:13<Ruudjah>the functions in there being integrated
14:15<Ruudjah>I want to learn a lot, but mostly stuff I _need_ to learn, e.g. VCS integration being a necessary evil which should just work and not make me think. I want to think about ottd code, not how I do things to make it happen
14:16<frosch123>one important property of an ide for me is also that it must not use project files or simliar
14:16<yorick>heh, ides :)
14:16*planetmaker found that a big IDE doesn't really help to get things done ;-)
14:17<@Alberth>but customizing the things around editing code gives opportunities for easier/faster development, which pay off much more than being able to type a little faster
14:17<yorick>command line, emacs/nano/vim or even gedit and that's it
14:18<Ammler>a big IDE might be good, if you have time to learn to use it
14:18<Ruudjah>sane defaults+neat integration does not mean you can't have customization (MSVS&Eclipse being proof of that for me)
14:18<Zuu>The biggest benefit in using MSVC over vim I find is debugging and code navigation in large projects.
14:18<@planetmaker>what frosch123 mentions is an important point: I've seen projects which use these - and then they're a constant cause of annoyance as they're not updated coherently for all project types / ides
14:19<Ruudjah>"it must not use project files or simliar" --> ??
14:19<@Terkhen>my problem with IDEs is that they usually add stuff to my project which it does not need and that when they fail (which at least for me happened quite frequently) I need to learn how to do the stuff they do for me anyways
14:19<frosch123>Ruudjah: the build uses makefiles
14:20<frosch123>any more files listing the files in the project is just crap. the ide should display everything is a the directory
14:20<frosch123>and subdirectories
14:20<@planetmaker>(yes, msvc requires them seemingly)
14:20<frosch123>well, msvc has no makefiles
14:20<@Alberth>and you may have several copies of the sources at your disk, moving things around between directories
14:20<Ammler>butbut, why do you have source.list then?
14:21<frosch123>Ammler: it is allowed to list the stuff in _one_ file
14:21<@Alberth>source.list is not part of the IDE
14:21<Ruudjah>so - what IDE might be good for me?
14:22<frosch123>the one which you are most comfortable with
14:22<Ammler>start with something and be open for others :-)
14:22<Ruudjah>right
14:22<frosch123>i refuse the idea that there is a "best idea for everyone"
14:23<frosch123>-a
14:23<Ruudjah>"best ide for project X"?
14:23<frosch123>neither that
14:23<Ammler>maybe there isn't even best IDE for you
14:23<Zuu>Personal preference also matters.
14:23<frosch123>if a project relies on a specific ide (as in relying on the project files for that), i consider it already crap :p
14:24<Ruudjah>But I can imagine there exist IDE's which fit C++/OpenTTD's project state more then others?
14:25<Yexo>why would there be any such IDE?
14:26<@Alberth>Ruudjah: a good strategy in OSS is to pick one program and use it. You will find bad spots while you use it. If they start to irritate, find another program for replacement, and ditch the previous one. Repeat forever
14:26<@Terkhen>^
14:27<Ammler>oh poor man, next thing you have to chose is one of the scm, since the silly openttd offers 3 different types :-P
14:27<Ammler>4 (source bundles)
14:27<Ruudjah>because specialization tends to produce better software, just like OpenTTD does. It specializes on one specific part and does that really good. So IDE's focusing on all languages might support most languages OK, but IDe focused on one lang might support that lang very well
14:27<Ruudjah>to name an example (language part of an IDE)
14:28<@Alberth>but they also want to be generic and multi-language (all used languages in one project)
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14:28<@Alberth>isn't there a KDE development ide too? kdevelop or so?
14:29*Alberth bets there is a gnome one too
14:29<Ammler>kdevelop is nice too
14:30<Ammler>as you have the Konsole integrated :-)
14:30<Ruudjah>Side question - why do you guys use a console in an IDE? I never did that?
14:31<@Alberth>grep , make, sort stuff, run sed, etc
14:31<@Terkhen>because you can do all kind of crazy magic with a console
14:31<Ammler>you don't need to remember commands
14:31<@Alberth>hg commands
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14:33<@Alberth>Ruudjah: 'grep -r <some-phrase> src' gives you one line of context for every occurrence of <some-phrase> at one screen, your ide is never that fast/good
14:33<Ruudjah>^^that stuff I expect my IDE to provide
14:33<Ruudjah>If not, failure
14:34<@Alberth>then dump all IDEs :)
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14:34<Ruudjah>There's a reason I'm asking the question here ;)
14:35<@Alberth>the only problem is that it takes time to learn console, your editor, etc
14:35<@Terkhen>the only IDE I use is Qt Creator, but only because it is quite good for Qt stuff and it is very light
14:36<@Terkhen>but it does not support configure based projects (IIRC it imports makefiles), so you would probably run into problems using it for OpenTTD
14:36<@Alberth>you want the perfect environment out of the box. I am constantly tuning my setup, always improving in little steps.
14:37<fonsinchen>I use my IDE primarily for quick navigation to definitions of classes and functions. This is very handy and I haven't found a way to do it that conveniently with a more lightweight editor.
14:38*Alberth uses doxygen generated html docs for that
14:38<fonsinchen>That works for looking up things, but not for changing things.
14:38<@Alberth>true
14:38<frosch123>fonsinchen: that function is also present in a lot of lightweight stuff
14:39<fonsinchen>Also it doesn't take place inside the editor. You have to switch to a web browser.
14:39<frosch123>and yes, that function is very important :)
14:39<fonsinchen>Is it? I didn't manage to get it to work in vim.
14:39*Alberth has 6 desktops, switching is 1 key-press
14:39<frosch123>vim can use ctags
14:39<Ruudjah>Lately, I needed to generate doxygen for a project...
14:40<Ruudjah>Having never used Eclipse, I clicked around a bit, and noted generate docs, it presented me with a wizard, and off I went
14:41<Ruudjah>as an example of how I like my cake ;)
14:42<@Alberth>I have a script that pulls the latest updates, rebuilds the binary, and regenerates the docs
14:42<@Terkhen>quick navigation is the only thing I miss, yes
14:43<Ruudjah>Alberth: you wrote that script manually, or generated it using an ide?
14:44<@Alberth>I wrote it myself, 3 years ago
14:44<@Terkhen>it is probably faster to code it yourself than to generate it somehow
14:44<@Alberth>it is about 10 lines
14:45<@Alberth>Ruudjah: an IDE is always limited, it knows X things you can switch on/off. I tend to want at least X+1 things
14:45<@Alberth>hence I don't like IDEs, as they limit how I can organize my work
14:46<@Alberth>or I need to know a zillion things about how to extend the IDE, which I have no interest in to know
14:50<Ruudjah>from what I conclude about all these responses, IDE's need a very long way to go
14:51<Zuu>Even if I often use an IDE (msvc or delphi), I pull up vim from time to time to perform actions that is simply much easier in vim than in a the text editors of those IDEs.
14:52<Zuu>Somtimes grep is the right tool as well.. Using an IDE does not forbid you to dig up other tools when they are better.
14:52<Ruudjah>specialization
14:52<@Alberth>Ruudjah: IDEs provide an easy way to get going. It makes many common things easy. But at some point you will hit limitations
14:53<@Alberth>When they start to irritate, find new program(s), and ditch the previous one :)
14:53<Ruudjah>One (of many) reason to use OSS ide, is being able to extend them
14:54<@Alberth>sure, but then you are doing dev-work in the ide project
14:54<Ruudjah>sometimes this overlaps with the project
14:54<Zuu>comersial IDEs usually allow for extension if you have a paid license. The problem usally arise when you use the free version of the comersial IDEs.
14:55<Ruudjah>OSS
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>http://pastebin.com/z4FQbpCg <-- that's what my refit masks look like now
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause>the majority of FIRS cargos seem to be transported in open wagons, so they need special graphics :(
15:01<andythenorth>vans
15:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: tarpaulins cover all sins
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15:02<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: cover the bulk wagons
15:02<theserpent>!password
15:02-!-theserpent was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>oh... whe didn't have that one in a while! :p
15:03<@Alberth>good that someone tested it again :)
15:04<Ruudjah>tnx all
15:05<@Alberth>yw :)
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>there's actually no reason to disable the container wagon, but i don't want to think about what could go in there...
15:06<andythenorth>everything
15:06<@Alberth>how does that compare with 'anything'?
15:07<@Alberth>(just wondering about the difference in meaning between the words)
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>the possibility of mixture
15:07<Chris_Booth>lol I like that kick
15:07<Chris_Booth>I may use it when I leave from now XD
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>"anything" is "one of many", "everything" is "many of many"
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: that'll likely lead to a ban.
15:08<@Alberth>besides, /quit is faster/shorter to type :)
15:08<Chris_Booth>it is
15:08<Chris_Booth>or /kickme
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15:10*Alberth is very tempted to perform that request :p
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>TB would have done it by now :p
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15:12<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the better thing is "@ kbanme"
15:20<dihedral>@logs
15:20<@DorpsGek>dihedral: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
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15:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I tried moving the pumps further in earlier today
15:42<andythenorth>it creates a weird optical illusion - that the canopy is not very high
15:42<andythenorth>it looks like it is lower in height than it should be
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm...
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, they usually are very high
15:42<andythenorth>the only solution is to show the legs - which means they are further out than in RL
15:43<andythenorth>I tried for about an hour ;)
15:43*Alberth likes the flower beds
15:43<andythenorth>the ones I removed?
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15:44<@Alberth>LordAro: http://www.fpaste.org/3iZc/
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15:46<@Alberth>andythenorth: no, the ones before. I didn't know you have new ones (number 2 and 3)
15:47<supermop>good afternoon
15:48<@Alberth>supermop: but I quite close to going to sleep
15:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: number 2 has too much empty space, but perhaps because I have seen the previous one (that I like). Number 3 does not have that problem, as the empty space 'belongs' to the shop for me.
15:56<andythenorth>Alberth: I can't be bothered to rotate the shop for the layout ;)
15:57<@Alberth>no need, this is better imho, it gives more diversity
15:57<@Alberth>ie, to a player, it would be a rotated version of the same station
16:00<@Alberth>(if you rotated the shop too)
16:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=941005#p941005
16:04<andythenorth>looks...ok
16:07<andythenorth>I'm putting back some flowerbed
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>looks great!
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>the pumps and the shop could be closer together... usually you don't want to get wet while going to pay...
16:15<supermop>use the card reader on the pump?
16:15<supermop>thats what i do
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: no such thing in europe.
16:16<supermop>i only go inside when i want to buy a snack on long road trips
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the stations survive by people using their shop, it would hurt their business if the people wouldn't have to walk 5m into the shop
16:16<supermop>in the us you have to put in your card before the pump will turn on
16:16-!-Nite [5472b1fc@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>they don't actually make any money on fuel.
16:17<supermop>indeed not,
16:17<supermop>except in certain areas
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>or if they do, like half a cent per liter
16:17<supermop>in nyc all of the money comes from the gas, as many stations in the city do not even have shops
16:18<supermop>but outside of ny, shop revenue is more impoortant
16:18<Nite>Hi
16:18<@Alberth>andythenorth: doesn't it need a big display of the oil company, and the cheap prices of the fuel ?
16:19<Nite>does the "find server" button refresh the whole server list?
16:19<supermop>a sign with the ottd logo would be cool
16:20<@planetmaker>ottd = oil, tools and toys distributions Inc. ?
16:20<@planetmaker>:-P
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and what's the "TTDP" on the farm stations?
16:22<@planetmaker>Toys & Tools for your Dear Pets Corp.
16:22<Nite>its a Transport Tycoon Deluxe Pharm ... what else ;)
16:22<andythenorth>I tried a price sign, but it looks odd :P
16:23<@Alberth>s/toys/tires/
16:23<@planetmaker>:-)
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>mäh... i wanted to patch something, but i forgot what...
16:25<@planetmaker>I'll try to patch my attention span... good night :-)
16:25<andythenorth>bye
16:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: patch towns
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16:33<Nite>any idea how to get the russians to upload their pretty rtts (russiantrainsandtrams) on bananas (?)
16:33<@Terkhen>ask them?
16:34<Nite>but how where? (i dont speak russian)
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16:36<@Terkhen>I don't know, sorry... but they must know about bananas already; they probably don't upload their newgrf by choice
16:37<Nite>could be
16:37<Nite>its really a cool and complete set ...
16:41<Nite>its also not on grfcrawler
16:41<Nite>is grfcrawler still updated?
16:42<andythenorth>not by me :P
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16:43*andythenorth has a plan to extend bananas to bring back some of what grf-crawler did
16:44<Nite>bananas is doing a lot
16:46<Nite>afk
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16:49<frosch123>night
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16:55<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 10 17:13:47 2011
---Logopened Sun Apr 10 18:21:26 2011
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22:04<adamkex>my plane just crashed, how do i replace it?
22:05<adamkex>:(
22:07-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c02b:5253:112b:bf4e] has quit [Quit: bye]
22:07<adamkex>nevermind :D
22:07<Eddi|zuHause>adamkex: click on a hangar, click on "clone" and then on the crashed plane
22:08<adamkex>Eddi|zuHause: yeah it took me a while, i thought i could only clone planes that were already inside the hangar..
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22:14<__ln__>@seen Bjarte
22:14<@DorpsGek>__ln__: I have not seen Bjarte.
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 11 00:00:00 2011