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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-11

---Logopened Mon Apr 11 00:00:00 2011
00:45<Bjarte>__ln__: I'm right here, damnit :P
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02:00<@planetmaker>moin
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02:24<dihedral>morning
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02:54<LordAro>moin
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03:04<pikka>popop
03:04<pikka>a wild chill appears
03:04<pikka>and chrill
03:05<Chrill>wild Chrill
03:05<Chrill>crazy wild
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03:05<@planetmaker>heya pikka
03:05<pikka>D;
03:05<pikka>hi planetmaker
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03:06<pikka>what are the haps?
03:07<@planetmaker>haps = things happening? Dunno, just returned from weekend late last night :P
03:07<pikka>o. been away for the weekend?
03:08<@planetmaker>yo. 4th birthday of my god-daughter :-)
03:08<pikka>cool :)
03:08<@planetmaker>much more fun than boring copyright threads it seems ;-)
03:08<pikka>I became an uncle on the weekend
03:08<@planetmaker>ho! Congratulations :-)
03:09<pikka>much more fun, silly people
03:09<pikka>well, congratulations to my sister :p
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03:09<@planetmaker>indeed :-)
03:11<pikka>and now I am waiting for a bus, and there's no loo around here :{
03:11<@planetmaker>what would you think of a sticky on "licenses explained" or so in the graphics sub-forums?
03:11<@planetmaker>I think I have a half-finished blog posting which I could convert...
03:12<@planetmaker>he... :S
03:12<pikka>I dunno
03:12<pikka>It's hard to explain licences to people
03:13<pikka>and I don't think it would avoid things like what happened this weekend
03:14<pikka>I don't know how much it would help
03:15<pikka>and of course not every grf author uses a major license for every release... most of mine, for instance.
03:15<@planetmaker>It wouldn't avoid that last thread, no. But it might help (new) authors to choose better informed and at the right place
03:16<@planetmaker>And IMHO it's as important as finding the right tools
03:16<@planetmaker>If they come to the conclusion to write their own - like you do - fine. But they should have *thought* about it ;-)
03:17<pikka>perhaps :)
03:17<@planetmaker>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/?p=469&preview=true <-- I guess you don't have access to that, right?
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03:17<pikka>nope
03:18<pikka>but if you want to pm something for comment, or even go right ahead and make a thread, ill look at it when I get home
03:19<pikka>right now I guess I'd better get this bus on the road :)
03:19<@planetmaker>yeah, not sure I can finish it today. It needs still a bit of work, I think. I want to look at the individual licenses a bit more in detail than I do now
03:19<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
03:19<@planetmaker>enjoy the ride ;-)
03:20<pikka>I'll try :p
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03:52<LordAro>ok, i can confirm that a self-compiled ottd trunk (mingw-win32) crashes when running ./openttd -d5 (or any other -d setting)
03:52<LordAro>bugs.openttd.org?
03:55<LordAro>i will anyway :)
04:02<LordAro>done
04:02<@Terkhen>good morning
04:02<@Terkhen>LordAro: configure it with --enable-console and try again
04:02<@Terkhen>or alternatively try to run it with -d5 from windows console, not from msys
04:03<LordAro>doing...
04:04<LordAro>aha! --enable-console works :)
04:05<@Terkhen>it is IMO a bug in msys, it can't open the extra console window that OpenTTD wants when compiled without --enable-console and using -d
04:06<LordAro>never experienced it before... :/
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04:55<norbert79>Good morning
04:57*norbert79 smells the flame burning in TT-Forums...ú
05:02<norbert79>Such hastle about this... Simple: SAC 'borrowed' some images, wnated to take credit for it, while he could just avoid the whole flame by lisitng the authors from those, whom he has borrowed graphics from...
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05:04<norbert79>and it's not the creator's task to show themselves, but the borrower, who reused some grpahics to address the original creator
05:07<Pikka>good norbing
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05:10<Wolf01>hello
05:21<norbert79>lol at Pikka.. Morning :)
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05:40<Eddi|zuHause>now you scared him
05:41<norbert79>awwww
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05:55<LordAro>norbert79: SAC = she
05:55<norbert79>LordAro: Thank you
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06:21<andythenorth>ho ho ho
06:21<norbert79>Welcome Santa Claus
06:22<andythenorth>It's a bizarre love triangle
06:22<andythenorth>For thieves like us
06:23<andythenorth>Maybe we could all make up
06:23<andythenorth>And have the perfect kiss
06:23<andythenorth>In 1963 or 1987
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06:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm... CargoPayment does some magic that i don't really understand...
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see where the actual payment occurs...
06:43<LordAro>is AllocateWindowDesc() used anymore? it's not in newgrf_gui.cpp...
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not actually sure what i want to do either...
06:44<LordAro>it seems not...
06:45<LordAro>what to do instead then... :L
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>either i want to introduce storing the last company in cargopacket, and when a vehicle loads which doesn't belong to that company, make a final payment and set transfer credit to 0
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>or i want to do that unconditionally for all transfers, and let the player responsibly take care of not hauling the cargo back and forth through transfers
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>but CargoPayment::PayTransfer does not seem to do the actual payment, so i don't know what to change
06:56<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: Payment is done in the destructor IIRC
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07:12<Pikka>how did I xchat?
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07:13<andythenorth>Cries and whispers
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07:15<Scuddles>hi triololo
07:17<Pikka>scuddles is ridiculous
07:17<Pikka>hello andy
07:18<Pikka>I am now use xchat because chatzilla goes mental and starts using 100% cpu if I close firefox, and also it's not that flash...
07:18<@planetmaker>good decision, Pikka :-)
07:18<Pikka>ty sir
07:19<Pikka>so between this and yaaic I feel like a proper new-age ircer now
07:19<Scuddles>you dirty ircer
07:20<Pikka>you damn dirty demomom
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07:20<Pikka>someone got angry with me for saying demomom
07:20<Pikka>instead of demomum
07:20<@peter1138>Grrrr!
07:20<@planetmaker>demo-mum? Like a mum just for show-casing? ;-)
07:20<Pikka>but it wasn't peter1138
07:20<Pikka>no planetmaker
07:21<Pikka>like a demopan only different
07:21<Scuddles>I thought it was like demoman
07:21*planetmaker has no idea of either of those three words ;-)
07:21<Scuddles>Not that that's much of a difference
07:21<Pikka>it's like demoman too
07:21<Scuddles>The demoman is one of the nine classes, he has pipes and stickies
07:21<Pikka>but noone uses proper words any more
07:21<Scuddles>not even the hoovy
07:21<Pikka>least of all me
07:22<Pikka>it's all team fortress 2, anyway
07:22<Scuddles>More like team fortless 2
07:22<Scuddles>Or teamless fort 2
07:22<Pikka>more like
07:22<Scuddles>Actually, it isn't even a fort
07:22<Pikka>bedtime
07:22<Scuddles>isn't it already, yes D:
07:22<@planetmaker>sleep well, Mr Bird
07:23<Pikka>goodnight gentlemen
07:23<Scuddles>goodnight mister spoon
07:23<Pikka>scuddles is it 11:23 in singapore?
07:23<Scuddles>nap it is 19:23
07:23<Pikka>o
07:23<Pikka>so it's
07:23<Pikka>2 hours earlier
07:23<Pikka>not 2 hours later
07:23<Pikka>I knew it was 2 hours
07:23<Scuddles>What are you even, Singapore's timezone is very Australiaish
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07:23<Pikka>now it is 21:24
07:24<Scuddles>Besides, if it was later I would be between hawaii and America
07:24<Scuddles>Or in vladivostok
07:24<Pikka>no
07:24<Pikka>or would you?
07:24<Pikka>I suppose you would
07:24<Scuddles>I was, but only then
07:24<Pikka>you must be perthtimes
07:24<Scuddles>yes, I must
07:24<Pikka>werd
07:24<Scuddles>Also japontimes and some-parts-of-Russia times
07:24<Scuddles>and HK times?
07:24<Pikka>yes
07:25<Pikka>I suppose
07:25<Pikka>anyway
07:25<Pikka>more boos to drive tomorrow, so now I must bedward
07:25<Scuddles>I'll drive you're boose
07:25<Pikka>you can try but you will crash
07:26<Pikka>gnight
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07:29<Scuddles>I am a bed too
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07:42<Eddi|zuHause>what language were they speaking?!
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08:20<ZirconiumX>hello all
08:21*ZirconiumX is wondering what heuristic I should use as a *basic* start
08:21<ZirconiumX>maybe Djikstra's
08:23<ZirconiumX>for squirrel
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09:05<andythenorth>hmm
09:05<andythenorth>cars in the FIRS petrol station?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>nah...
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09:15<@Belugas>hello
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11:05<Eddi|zuHause>hmz... i read through the code all day, but i can't find the right place... i give up...
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11:32<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: right place for what?
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: modify transfer payment
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>my thought was that transfer between companies isn't really working currently, as only the final delivery is accounted, every other company involved is getting nothing. so either when the company changes it should pay the previous company, or all transfers should be treated like final delivery
11:35<Yexo>both of those solutions are fundamentally flawed
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>especially the second one is easily abused
11:36<Yexo>however if you don't expect foul play they might work well
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>but the point is moot if i can't find the right place to patch...
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12:15<yorick>is it impossible (using the admin interface) to poll the shareholders?
12:15<yorick>of a company?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>for various values of "impossible"
12:16<yorick>meaning?
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12:17-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association @#openttdcoop.dev #wwottdgd #openttd @#tycoon.de @#openttdcoop
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>"manager's impossible" = "the program doesn't do it", "engineer's impossible" = "it's too much work to make the program do it" or "scientist's impossible" = "it is proven that it can't be done"?
12:19<yorick>this is a manager's impossible?
12:19<yorick>:)
12:20<Ammler>could be solved with a patch then :-P
12:21<yorick>which would require a protocol change
12:23<Ammler>doesn't it support versioning for such reason?
12:25<yorick>better add faces and secondary colors too, also fix the ADMIN_PACKET_ADMIN_UPDATE_FREQUENCY to use a uint8 for AdminUpdateType
12:25<yorick>if the protocol is changed anyways
12:26<yorick>it only supports versioning handles by the client, not the server :(
12:26<yorick>handled*
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12:34<Ruudjah>any way to disable automatic orders? The one thng openttd tries to do for me, does it very bad
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12:36<Ruudjah>(sorry for the troll)
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12:36<@planetmaker>Ruudjah, there isn't. But automatic orders do NOT influence where a train goes
12:37<@planetmaker>it's just a (visual) feedback of which stations a train (also) visits due to the manual orders you gave
12:37<@planetmaker>so, if you're unhappy with it, reconsider your orders ;-)
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12:41<Ruudjah>I just played A game
12:41<Ruudjah>and there was no way to change the orders
12:41<Ruudjah>because it was adding/removing orders like crazy
12:41<Ruudjah>like
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12:41<Ruudjah>every second it removed 10 orders and added 10 orders
12:42<Ruudjah>so I was unable to fix em
12:42<@planetmaker>depot them
12:42<Ruudjah>then I was like whatever, and stopped the game
12:43<Ruudjah>quit
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12:46<Ruudjah>Also I noted automatic orders which should not be there
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12:46<Ruudjah>had station a,b,c,d
12:46<ZirconiumX>Hi all
12:46<Ruudjah>depot before a
12:46<Ruudjah>then ordered abcd
12:46<Ruudjah>just a big loop
12:46<Ruudjah>a->b->c->d->a etc
12:46<Ruudjah>but kept adding removing automatic orders
12:46<@planetmaker>well, that's bad depot placement then probably
12:47<Ruudjah>no
12:47<Ruudjah>one depot only
12:47<@planetmaker>if you think it's a bug, make a bug report and attach the savegame
12:47<ZirconiumX>I notice that in the AyStar Pathfinder, in the constructor() there are all the altered properties - Is this neccessary?
12:48<@planetmaker>otherwise it's kinda hard to follow, Ruudjah ;-)
12:48*Ruudjah thinks there should be a bugreport button, presenting user with desc form+uploading all debug info automagically
12:48*Ruudjah also knows he prolly has to build it himself
12:48<ZirconiumX>http://bugs.openttd.org/
12:49<ZirconiumX>I think
12:49<Ruudjah>I know
12:49<Ruudjah>to tedious
12:49<Ruudjah>If all the bugs I classify as bugs I'd report, it would be dayjob
12:50<ZirconiumX>We could ask a dev to do something like @bugs
12:51<ZirconiumX>or something stupid like that
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12:52<ZirconiumX>I'll add the stuff in constructor()
12:52<@planetmaker>Ruudjah, just mind that we cannot fix anything we don't know about. So every software project needs people to actually put the finger on things which they consider a bug.
12:53<@Terkhen>there was a forum thread about automatic bug reporting recently, the reasons why that is not a good idea are exposed there
12:54<@planetmaker>oh, there was?
12:54*planetmaker must have missed it.
12:54*planetmaker also would call it regression testing ;-)
12:57*ZirconiumX rants on about how many 'state u''s there are in the Dstar code
12:58<@Terkhen>strange, I cannot find it... maybe I just dreamed about it
12:58<LordAro>hmmm - Alberth hasn't turned up today
12:59<frosch123>Terkhen: wasn't it a fs task?
13:00-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
13:00<frosch123>yeah, fs#4491
13:01<@Terkhen>you are right, thanks :)
13:02<@planetmaker>thanks :-)
13:02<@planetmaker>missed that, too :S
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22318 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt croatian.txt korean.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
13:47<ZirconiumX>@AI devs/gurus, is there a function similar to rand() in C?
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14:12<LordAro>gah, where is alberth when you want him?
14:13<@Terkhen>busy?
14:14<LordAro>don't care >:(
14:14<Ammler>no excuse, if LordAro needs him
14:14<LordAro>precisely :)
14:14<LordAro>:p
14:14<@Terkhen>don't caring can work in both directions ;)
14:15<Ammler>:-)
14:15<LordAro>shh!
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14:20<LordAro>with mq, how to output all patches as one? the mercurial wiki says: "hg diff -r $(hg parents -r qbase --template '#rev#') -r qtip", but that doesn't work - "hg: parse error at 0: syntax error"
14:20<andythenorth>hello
14:20<LordAro>moin andy
14:21<Ammler>LordAro: hg diff -r.:qparent
14:21<Ammler>or just hg diff -r qparent
14:22<LordAro>ty
14:22<Ammler>that does make a patch of all applied patches
14:22<LordAro>so why doesn't the mercurial wiki (http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/MqExtension#Output_all_applied_patches_as_a_single_patch) work?
14:23<LordAro>and does it need changing?
14:23<Ammler>no idea, I don't use that wiki
14:23<Ammler>i use hg help and man hg
14:24<LordAro>cheat :P
14:24*planetmaker does usually the same as Ammler
14:24<Ammler>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/Mercurial <-- LordAro, other helpful links at the bottom
14:25<Ammler>hginit.com is nice for starters
14:26<andythenorth>supermop: did you figure out version control yet? :)
14:26<Ammler>LordAro: and you should do what 8.4/8.5 suggests in that wiki
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14:28<LordAro>done :)
14:29<LordAro>anyway, i g2g
14:29<LordAro>thanks everyone
14:29<LordAro>tell alberth i waited for him :')
14:29<LordAro>lol
14:29<LordAro>by
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14:29<@planetmaker>lol
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14:45<flitz>hi
14:46<andythenorth>ho
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15:33<andythenorth>ho
15:33*andythenorth wonders what else CHIPS needs
15:33<andythenorth>besides some drawings, which I am too lazy to do right now
15:35<andythenorth>is this confusing? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=53362&start=20
15:36*andythenorth thinks it might be a valid point
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15:37<yorick>lol @ chips :)
15:38<andythenorth>at the name? Or the grf? :P
15:40<yorick>the name
15:40<yorick>too bad FISH isn't the industry set
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15:41<andythenorth>the industry set should be MAYO
15:41<andythenorth>or PEAS
15:41<andythenorth>hmm
15:41<andythenorth>MAYO sounds like an objects set
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15:42<yorick>PEAS should be an Aircraft Set
15:43<andythenorth>so it should
15:44<yorick>PEAS Extended Aircraft Set :)
15:44<andythenorth>MAYO Adds Your Objects
15:44<andythenorth>PEAS = WIN
15:45<yorick>Peace Ends All Sadness?
15:45<Prof_Frink>I'm struggling with CURRYSAUCE.
15:47<andythenorth>Probably an AI
15:47<yorick>CURRYSAUCE Unique Railroad Renewal Yet Still Awesome U CE?
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15:48<yorick>meh @ sauce
15:49<yorick>YIARA is a recursive acronym :(
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15:54<confound>andythenorth: I am boggled that that was confusing someone
15:54<andythenorth>I can see why
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16:11<Yexo>andythenorth: easy solution might be to make the menu display no buffers at all
16:11<andythenorth>if it's possible...
16:11<andythenorth>then it should be done :)
16:16<@planetmaker>"cargo" 0xFF ;-)
16:16<@planetmaker>(or is that different for stations?)
16:17<Yexo>nope
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16:27<andythenorth>sometime we should give CHIPS it's own menu entry too
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16:40<Ruudjah>06:52 planetmaker: true. The first thing I do for projects is to include a bugreporter ;)
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16:52<flitz>hm, what would be a good method to determine whether a vehicle in a consist is a locomotive or a wagon ? Ask if its power is > 0 ?
16:52<flitz>I found no function to determine this easily
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16:53<frosch123>flitz: IsPrimaryVehicle
16:53<frosch123>tests for a front-engine
16:53<frosch123>if you want to test for other non-front engines there is likely also some IsEngine or so
16:53<frosch123>take a look at Train or GroundVehicle class
16:54<flitz>this is what I didn't found, at least not in Vehicle and Train
16:54<flitz>I want to test mid-consist vehicles
16:54<flitz>let me take a look at ground vehicle, brb
16:54<frosch123>yeah, it's in GroundVehicle
16:55<flitz>ah I found it, thanks
16:55<flitz>IsWagon, very convenient -if one looks at the right place ;)
16:56<frosch123>keep in mind that not everything is either wagon or engine :)
16:57<Yexo>and some engines can also transport cargo
16:57<@planetmaker>and some wagons add power...
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16:58<@planetmaker>and some are cabooses and are required in order to extend the length beyond xy tiles. Etc pp
16:58<@planetmaker>but "caboose" is nothing which can be tested by AIs
16:59<frosch123>night
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16:59<@planetmaker>sounds tempting. Good night, too
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>there is an AI callback (18?), but it's not powerful enough
17:00<Yexo>and therefor not implemented in openttd
17:00<andythenorth>bye planetmaker
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>only for stations, not for trains
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17:01<flitz>and some wagons add power... <<-- yes, I just wanted to extract vehicles from a consist that are able to pull the consist in the role of primary engine
17:01<flitz>I'm not sure whether it makes much gameplay sense, though
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17:09<@Terkhen>good night
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17:11<andythenorth>dropping like flies :P
17:13<andythenorth>ho
17:13<andythenorth>with FIRS nightly, my entire map is now full of recycling depots :o
17:13*andythenorth does exaggerate a bit
17:13<andythenorth>there are 181 of them
17:14<andythenorth>about 5 per town
17:15<flitz>recycling depots ?
17:15<andythenorth>yup
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17:16<flitz>they recycle ... vehicles ?
17:16<Nite>Hi
17:16<flitz>hi
17:17<andythenorth>flitz: they produce Recyclables cargo
17:17<Nite>trein status bar, speed still flickering
17:17<Nite>train
17:17<flitz>but they are still depots which refit and buy vehicles ?
17:17<andythenorth>flitz: no ;)
17:18<andythenorth>they're an industry
17:18<flitz>now I see :)
17:18<Nite>it seems when a train cannot reach full speed it sometimes does like 99,5 kmh ... hten the display "flickers" between 99 and 100 constantly
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17:19<Nite>as i remember in 1.0 only every 2nd kmh was shown (= 2, 4, 6, 8, and so on)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: test savegame?
17:20<Nite>just run any train with weak engine it happens often
17:20<Nite>when trains do **,5 kmh
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i didn't express myself clear enough.
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: test savegame!
17:22<Nite>i remember old digital tachometers in real cars did this too (audi quattro)
17:22<Nite>where to drop that savegame?
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>bugs.openttd.org
17:23<Nite>brb
17:28<Nite>savegame in future maybee
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17:31<andythenorth>oops
17:31*andythenorth does some improving
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18:06*andythenorth has drawn flowers around a farmhouse
18:06<andythenorth>but maybe they look like sick
18:07<Nite>*prust*
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18:10<Ammler>someone ever converted mediawiki db from latin1 to utf-8?
18:10<Ammler>I am not able to and internet search doesn't really help :-(
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18:11<Ammler>keys are going to beckome to big
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>is that not something easily with sql dump and iconv?
18:12<Ammler>yep, usually that works
18:12<Ammler>well, I might need to convert every table manually
18:19<Ammler>ERROR 1071 (42000) at line 409: Specified key was too long; max key length is 1000 bytes
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20:22<Wolf01>'night
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21:04<__ln__>good morning
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23:28<anythingffs>guys, how does the good cargo catchment work? number of people in the catchment or distance from town centre?
23:28<anythingffs>'goods' cargo
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23:32<albaandy>on a side note, wouldnt the openttd engine be good for a theme park tycoon?
23:35<albaandy>I need an airport to accept goods, what is the criteria for that or how do I help it along?
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 12 00:00:18 2011