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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-13

---Logopened Wed Apr 13 00:00:36 2011
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02:45*andythenorth ponders
02:46<andythenorth>it would be really useful to have some magic that returned the correct slope-aware ground tile to an action 2
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03:40<LordAro> <- how's this?
03:40<Markk>Sehr gut.
03:40<Markk>Looks really good.
03:40<Markk>Neat to have the readme so handy.
03:45<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:54<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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03:59<LordAro>hi Terkhen, see the image above?
04:00<LordAro>Markk: yeah, except you can't view the readme yet ;) thats just the window...
04:00<@Terkhen>yes, I have seen it
04:02<Markk>LordAro: Nah, just a minor issue. :D
04:03<LordAro>i was wondering about the colour, and the size - it seems a little small, and the colour seems too similar to other windows, thoughts?
04:03<@Terkhen>IMO it should have the same color than the NewGRF window
04:04<@Terkhen>and, if the lenght of the readme allows it, the window should resize to show it completely
04:06<LordAro>so the colour is fine, and it needs some fancy auto-window-resize when viewing readme is implemented
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04:20<@planetmaker>LordAro: you probably want to make the default height quite a bit larger
04:20<@planetmaker>and maybe the width also
04:20<@planetmaker>One can't read properly a text file in a micro-window ;-)
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04:46<dihedral>good morning
04:50<LordAro>planetmaker: suggestions? it is currently 400x140 (same as news history gui)
04:56<Ammler>same size as default bananas window
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05:04<Ammler>with should at least have space for 80-100 letters
05:06<LordAro>how's this: - seems a little big to me...
05:09<@Terkhen>I don't think you should worry about window size until you can check how it looks when displaying real readmes
05:09<LordAro>i like doing things in the wrong order :P
05:10<LordAro>can someone check the coding style of the patch - (code in wrong order/place or whatever)
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05:11<@Terkhen>then you like doing things twice
05:12<@Terkhen>line 206: //View GRF readme <-- space between // and View
05:12<Ammler>oh, I thought it is already working but early houses doesn't have a readme :-)
05:14<LordAro>pfft, yeah, cos i'm that good at coding... :')
05:14<Ammler>I just wanted to suggest another idea: limited support for rst, but then that is too early ;-)
05:14<LordAro>far too early, and probably not covered by this patch :P
05:16<Ammler>or markdown
05:17<LordAro>images in readmes is certainly a no-no IMHO
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i thought the consensus was to implement opening a browser instead
05:18<LordAro>g2g, back soon (maybe)
05:19<Ammler>rst/markdown have no images support afaik do they?
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05:22<dihedral>where is that logic gate thread with the train counter? anybody got an idea?
05:23<dihedral>found it
05:27<andythenorth>Yexo: is var 69 for industries a serious possibility?
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05:37<andythenorth>industry probability at map gen is proportional to all other industries?
05:38<andythenorth>so if some industries can't be built in say 1830, I'm going to get a lot more of the ones that can be built?
05:43<andythenorth>seems to be the case anyway
05:43<andythenorth>makes testing a bit...complex
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06:13<Hirundo>LordAro: Make the WC_GRF_PARAMETERS -> WC_NEWGRF_PARAMETERS change a separate patch
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06:47<George>Hi, Where can I read about about extended tile action 2?
06:48<George>Searching tt-forums did not help :(
06:48<George>Andy said me about it, but could not give the link ^(
06:50<@planetmaker>George, on frosch's user page in the openttd wiki
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06:55<George>hm, would be nice. But why not to epand on vehicles too? ;)
06:55<@planetmaker>vehicles don't have ground sprites
06:56<@planetmaker>IMHO it would be different things, thus different work
06:57<@planetmaker>vehicles also have no child sprites
06:57<@planetmaker>and no sprite layout at all.
07:01<George>But if they would it be nice ;)
07:03<@planetmaker>yes, it would. But it's an entirely different topic ;-)
07:04<@planetmaker>and the larger a topic or patch gets the less likely or lengthy any trunk inclusion gets due to an exponential increase in possible border cases...
07:09<andythenorth>extended sprite layout would be very nice to have
07:09<andythenorth>lets keep it simple :)
07:10<andythenorth>will it be confusing that the FIRS grain mill has two totally different sets of graphics (windmill: brick building)
07:10<andythenorth>same industry in all other respects
07:12<Yexo>andythenorth: <- bit 8 for ind var 68 tha enables filtering on same town
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07:14<andythenorth>I'll test that this afternoon :)
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07:15<andythenorth>I set bit 8 how? (I should know by now, but never do)
07:15<andythenorth>with the mask?
07:15<andythenorth>or just push a value?
07:15<Yexo>it's bit 8 of register 101
07:15<Yexo>so something like this:
07:16<Yexo>1A 20 \wx0100 (var 1A, mask 0x0100) \2sto 1A 00 \wx0101 (operation store, var 1A, mask 0x101 (=register number))
07:17<Yexo>the above is assuming that you use type 85 for the varaction2, so everything is word-sized
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07:34<andythenorth>Yexo: any thoughts on backwards compatibility if I use this var?
07:34<andythenorth>seems I might need to consider it...
07:35<Yexo>in openttd versions that don't support it that bit will be ignored
07:35<andythenorth>so I'll get a count for the map, not the town...
07:37<andythenorth>that will cause non-ideal but not failing results
07:38<andythenorth>I can always wait to implement it in FIRS until it's in a 1.1.x openttd
07:38<Yexo>certainly don't implement it in FIRS now, frosch (or someone else) might have another idea on how to implement it
07:38<andythenorth>but I should test your patch works?
07:38<andythenorth>it's no drama to test
07:38<Yexo>if you want to, it's not really necesary
07:39<andythenorth>ok...maybe I work on some other tickets then :)
07:39<andythenorth>is it useful to raise a FS about this idea?
07:39<Yexo>yes, it makes sure it's not forgotten
07:41<andythenorth>is this task not done?
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07:41<andythenorth>I make industry on water a lot :)
07:41<andythenorth>or do I misunderstand that ticket?
07:42<Yexo>I don't understand the task completely, it might be done indeed
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07:51<andythenorth>the newgrf documentation wrt town zones seems sparse
07:51<andythenorth>am I looking in the wrong place?
07:52<Yexo>no, that's probably all there is
07:52<andythenorth>how interesting
07:52<@planetmaker>houses have more elaborate treatise on it afaik
07:52<Yexo> <- doesn't have much more either
07:52<andythenorth>I was hoping to do this ticket
07:52<andythenorth>but I don't really understand yet what's required
07:52<andythenorth>do town zones expand over time?
07:53<@planetmaker>yes. Radii are a function of town size
07:54<andythenorth>so zone 3 is the town centre
07:54<andythenorth>seems to be out of order
07:54<@planetmaker>not always. zone 5
07:54<@planetmaker>the highest one is town centre
07:54<andythenorth>how odd
07:54<Yexo>it depends on the town size
07:54*andythenorth might duck this ticket
07:54<Yexo>for very big towns, 5 is the center, 0 is at the outskirts
07:54<andythenorth>there is useful other things to do :)
07:54<andythenorth>anyone else got an idea of how to do it?
07:54<Yexo>smaller towns don't have townzone 5, so 4 (or 3, 2. etc.) will be the center, 0 is still the outskirts of the town
07:55<Yexo>reading that ticket it seems you want it to be placed near the border of the towns, right? so always in townzone o (or maybe 1)
07:55<andythenorth>I think so
07:55<andythenorth>I'm not really sure what the gameplay effect will be of that
07:56<andythenorth>only one way to find out...
07:56<andythenorth>meanwhile this is probably a more useful ticket for me:
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08:07-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
08:11<ZirconiumX>hello all
08:11<ZirconiumX>I'm being an idiot as usual
08:11<ZirconiumX><null> <---- line = (165) column = (1) : error expression expected
08:12<ZirconiumX>it's refering to a nonexistent line
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08:14<+glx>always check the previous line
08:16<ZirconiumX>a comment
08:17<ZirconiumX>else if (getG(s_start) == infinity) { path = null; return false; }
08:17<ZirconiumX>last function
08:17<+glx>seems it doesn't now null
08:18*ZirconiumX has been daft - open expression
08:18<ZirconiumX>I'll wait for Squirrel2 compiler to compile - then I'll see what's what
08:19<ZirconiumX>8 warnings so far
08:22<ZirconiumX>no - still compalaining - even with the *correct* compiler
08:23<ZirconiumX><ignore this, OFTC's playing up> /Users/ralphbrades/DStar_update/main.nut line = (165) column = (1) : error expression expected Error [expression expected]
08:24<+glx>it's not oftc it's your client ;)
08:24<ZirconiumX>13:18 421: | [0] ZirconiumX, [1] Users/***/DStar_update/main.nut, [2] Unknown command
08:24*ZirconiumX sighs
08:24<+glx>yes lines starting with / are commands
08:24<ZirconiumX>I could do with Yexo being around
08:25<+glx>anyway the problem is path = null
08:25<ZirconiumX>it should be
08:25<@planetmaker>doesn't sound healthy. Also 'hi glx' :-)
08:26<ZirconiumX>hi planetmaker
08:26<dihedral>hi pm
08:26*ZirconiumX thinks as a general rule - respect op's
08:26-!-mode/#openttd [+o glx] by DorpsGek
08:26<dihedral>ZirconiumX, respect everybody*
08:26<dihedral>*except idiots
08:26-!-mode/#openttd [-o glx] by DorpsGek
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08:27<dihedral>lol glx
08:27<+glx>try without the "path = null" stuff to be sure
08:28<ZirconiumX>I'll comment it out
08:28<+glx>but keep the return, maybe it's the error
08:28<ZirconiumX>ah - the wonders of vim
08:28<ZirconiumX>:set number
08:29<@planetmaker>hello all, also ;-)
08:30<ZirconiumX>the best command - other than :w
08:30*ZirconiumX wonders where life would be without the save button
08:31<ZirconiumX>Users/***/DStar_update/main.nut line = (164) column = (2) : error expression expected Error [expression expected]
08:31<ZirconiumX>} <-- is column 164
08:31<ZirconiumX>all of it
08:32<ZirconiumX>bit of commenting later
08:33*andythenorth_ wonders what to do with Fruit & Veg in FIRS
08:34<ZirconiumX>sell it for ridiculous amounts of moneyz
08:34<andythenorth_>option 1 - deliver to stores (but they already have max input cargos)
08:34<andythenorth_>option 2 - market industry in town, it's a black hole
08:34<andythenorth_>option 3 - process into food
08:35<ZirconiumX>or supermarket
08:35<andythenorth_>it's the most logical
08:35<andythenorth_>which is most fun?
08:35<ZirconiumX>food then supermarket
08:36<ZirconiumX><idiot> burn it *maniacal eyes* </idiot
08:36*ZirconiumX most stop being noobish
08:36<ZirconiumX>oh - damn
08:37<ZirconiumX>the path = null thing is fine
08:37<@planetmaker>hm... market... could be interesting :-)
08:37<andythenorth_>I wonder about that
08:38<andythenorth_>I could transform 'store' into market
08:38<ZirconiumX>what if you have a higher price for fruit and Veg in desert
08:38<andythenorth_>but I don't have enough input cargos
08:38<@planetmaker>a few black holes don't hurt. But... hm... why then transform 'store' and not keep it?
08:38<andythenorth_>clutter on minimap?
08:38<andythenorth_>I *could* transform store into hardware store
08:39<andythenorth_>and have it accept goods and building materials
08:39<andythenorth_>instead of food / goods / alcohol
08:39<ZirconiumX>and then have a supermarket for the food
08:39<andythenorth_>then add a market
08:39*ZirconiumX thinks supermarkets are important
08:39<andythenorth_>market gets beer, food, fruit
08:39<@planetmaker>hm... and there it is again: varying input for an industry :-P
08:39<andythenorth_>planetmaker: it's technically possible
08:39<andythenorth_>is it a good idea though?
08:40<andythenorth_>stores that accept a random set of cargos on build?
08:40<@planetmaker>I still don't know ;-) - I was just reminded of this idea again, though
08:40<ZirconiumX>ah - yes it is the path = null thing
08:40<@planetmaker>but yes, that's what I thought of
08:40<@planetmaker>And they could have different graphics depending on that.
08:40<andythenorth_>it's possible
08:40<@planetmaker>E.g. one accepting fruits could more have a market graphics than a mall
08:40<@planetmaker>I think I'd need to really see it alive and kicking before I could make up my mind properly
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08:41<andythenorth_>is it annoying to have to check acceptance?
08:41<andythenorth_>I guess we just have to test
08:41<andythenorth_>I need to start a new game anyway :P
08:41<@planetmaker>might be annoying.
08:41<@planetmaker>Might be fun
08:41<@planetmaker>If it's 3 out of 4 or so
08:41*andythenorth_ ponders
08:41<andythenorth_>it's a black hole...
08:41<andythenorth_>wonder if I can use tile acceptance
08:41<andythenorth_>and ignore industry acceptance
08:41<andythenorth_>probably screws with the industry chains display
08:42<@Terkhen>if they have different graphics it's ok, otherwise I would find it annoying
08:42<andythenorth_>simplest thing is to remove fruit + veg cargo :P
08:42<andythenorth_>leaving a gap
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08:43<andythenorth_>there are plenty of farm cargos already...
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08:46*andythenorth_ proposes removing fruit + veg
08:46<andythenorth_>and fruit plantation
08:47<LordAro>Hirundo: i have, i just did 'hg diff -r qparent' for simple posting :) Should i post the separate patch so it can be committed? or is it not needed yet?
08:48<andythenorth_>planetmaker: you think an unwise move?
08:48<@planetmaker>I don't quite understand the need.
08:48<andythenorth_>it's just not adding much
08:48<andythenorth_>there are another 6 farm cargos to play with
08:48<@planetmaker>Fruit is a nice cargo. And I've heart the argument "not adding much" for virtually every cargo...
08:49<andythenorth_>"it's done when there's nothing else left to take away" etc
08:49<andythenorth_>Do you not find it weird that it's only produced at fruit plantation, not at farms also?
08:49<@planetmaker>remove every supply except one. remove all ores except one. remove all farm cargos except one.
08:49<andythenorth_>Maybe the name is bothering me
08:49<andythenorth_>Fruit Plantation -> Fruit & Vegetables
08:49<andythenorth_>seems a bit odd
08:49<@planetmaker>then use the default fruits
08:49<lugo>seperating supermarket and hardware store/building yard sounds like a great idea to me, just my 2c :)
08:50<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause2 was requesting another sink for building materials....
08:50<@planetmaker>I never understood why a new cargo needed introducing there. But... for the sake of compatibility, just rename how the string reads
08:50<andythenorth_>"Fruit" only?
08:50<andythenorth_>or rename the industry?
08:50<andythenorth_>Fruits I'm happier with
08:50<andythenorth_>I wonder if fruits includes olives
08:51<andythenorth_>and grapes
08:51<andythenorth_>and apples -> cider
08:51<@planetmaker>And if the delivery destinations bothers you: ship them to a food processor and an alcohol plant
08:51<andythenorth_>They go to the brewery already
08:51<andythenorth_>which is good
08:51<@planetmaker>grapes, definitely. Olives... dunno
08:51<andythenorth_>I think they need to go to a fruit packer and become food
08:51<andythenorth_>ach, I can't decide :)
08:51<@planetmaker>just food factory
08:51<confound>you can have both, can't you?
08:52<andythenorth_>you can, but it makes for odd gameplay
08:52<@planetmaker>Like you can make marmelade, juice, cocktails, ... what-not-ever
08:52<confound>because they could turn into food or they could just be delivered directly?
08:52<andythenorth_>this one is silly, I should have figured it out ages ago
08:52<andythenorth_>jam factory :P
08:52<@planetmaker>German marmelade = English jam ;-)
08:52<@planetmaker>English marmelade = special kind of German marmelade ;-)
08:52<confound>delivering fruits/vegetables directly to supermarket or something seems not crazy to me
08:53<@planetmaker>nasty false friends
08:53<andythenorth_>if fruit goes direct to supermarket, I have to drop a cargo there
08:53<andythenorth_>probably goods in that case
08:53<@planetmaker>nvm me ;-)
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08:53<andythenorth_>currently accepts food / goods / alcohol
08:54<andythenorth_>dropping alcohol is obviously silly
08:54<@planetmaker>be British. Only sell it in liquor stores :-P
08:54<@planetmaker>Continental Europe then won't get it :-P
08:54<andythenorth_>be British, sell it everywhere, watch all your pubs close down :P
08:55<andythenorth_>*not* adding food processor makes for a cleaner minimap
08:55<andythenorth_>and I don't have to draw anything
08:55*andythenorth_ believes someone has recently created a food processor industry :o
08:55<@planetmaker>default TTD has a food processor industry
08:55<andythenorth_>I know, but that one sucks
08:55<andythenorth_>it's ugly
08:55<@planetmaker>it has potential for improvement.
08:56<andythenorth_>I think (1) rename cargo
08:56<confound>I think "food processor" is boring, sadly
08:56<@planetmaker>Give me a nicer one which fits the original size and you'll make me happy, too ;-)
08:56<@Terkhen>in OpenGFX it looks a bit empty
08:56<andythenorth_>(2) fruit -> brewery (currently true) and fruit -> market/store (needs adding)
08:56<andythenorth_>and (3) remove goods from store, maybe provide a new destination industry for it
08:57<andythenorth_>is it acceptable to have pluralised industries?
08:57<andythenorth_>e.g. 'shops'
08:57<confound>"mall" :)
08:57<andythenorth_>mall in 1830?
08:57<confound>well, no,.
08:57<andythenorth_>catering for early games makes this *way* harder sadly
08:58<andythenorth_>if it started in 1950, this would be much easier
08:58<andythenorth_>planetmaker: changing the string implies that really the cargo label should be reverted back to the default...
08:58<andythenorth_>...not sure whether that's good though wrt savegames
09:00<andythenorth_>pure 'fruit' reads better in game
09:01<confound>that makes sense to me
09:01<confound>"Restaurants" could accept fruit, food, and alcohol, though... meh
09:02<@Terkhen>what was the reason for using "fruits and vegetables" instead of the default cargo?
09:02<andythenorth_>Not sure
09:02<andythenorth_>lost in the depths of time
09:02<andythenorth_>I'd happily revert, except for breakage concerns
09:03<andythenorth_>might be able to change only the label, which might not freak out too badly for well-made sets
09:03<andythenorth_>if Store was Food Store this would suddenly make a lot more sense
09:03<andythenorth_>Fruit, Food, Alcohol
09:03<andythenorth_>it's fun :)
09:05<andythenorth_>which is better?
09:05<andythenorth_>Food Store?
09:05<andythenorth_>Food Market?
09:05<andythenorth_>for EU and US readers both?
09:05<confound>of those two, I like Market better (US)
09:05<confound>Food Store sounds very generic
09:05<andythenorth_>planetmaker: Terkhen ?
09:06*andythenorth_ thinks Food Market
09:06<@Terkhen>they sound all the same to me, probably because they share the same translation in spanish :)
09:06<andythenorth_>oh ok
09:06<andythenorth_>which is (out of interest)?
09:07<@Terkhen>mercado (market)
09:07*andythenorth_ should know that
09:07<andythenorth_>Food Market wins
09:08<andythenorth_>that means a new industry is needed for Goods / BDMT
09:08<@Terkhen>"mercado de alimentación" (food market) is too long and usually is not used, so I would translate that as just "mercado"
09:10<andythenorth_>would that conflict with some other shop types? Like hardware store?
09:10<@Terkhen>no, that has a specific name in spanish
09:11<andythenorth_>should Builders Yard also accept Goods?
09:11<andythenorth_>that would be one way to avoid needing a new industry
09:11<@Terkhen>which industries produce goods right now?
09:14<@Terkhen>hmm.. it does not make much sense for industries such as the textile mill
09:15<andythenorth_>I need something like this:
09:15<andythenorth_>which is also valid back to 1800s
09:15<LordAro>there must be a way of simplifying this code: - i can't get my head round the logic of it :)
09:18<@Terkhen>LordAro: if this->avail_sel is NULL, wouldn't it fail in the second line?
09:18<@Terkhen>andythenorth_: true :)
09:18<Yexo>LordAro: first write down (in english) when you want the button to be disabled
09:19<andythenorth_>hi Belugas
09:19<LordAro>ok, i thought i may have to resort ot that... (yexo)
09:19<andythenorth_>Belugas: what industry accepts Goods and Building Materials? :)
09:20<LordAro>Terkhen: s/simplifying/correcting/ ;)
09:20*andythenorth_ thinks it has to be Hardware Store
09:20<andythenorth_>any objections?
09:21<@Belugas>hem... right...
09:24<andythenorth_>'Ironmonger' is probably a bit UK specific
09:31<andythenorth_>now I have to code another fricking industry :|
09:41<andythenorth_>"Hotel / Restaurant" is a sucky name for an industry
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09:42<andythenorth_>they shouldn't need '/' in their names
09:42<andythenorth_>What's better?
09:42<andythenorth_>Accepts Food, Alcohol, PAX
09:42<andythenorth_>will look like a hotel, or a boat...
09:51<@Belugas>andythenorth_, i fail to find an industry other than those found so far :( sorry
09:51<@Belugas>bit busy, actually...
09:52<lugo>restaurant+hotel = resort?
09:53<andythenorth_>I thought that maybe
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09:53<andythenorth_>Is a riverboat restaurant a resort?
09:55<andythenorth_>Terkhen: how does 'resort' translate in spanish?
09:56<@Terkhen>hmm... in many different ways, depending on the kind of resort
09:56<Yexo>doesn't a resort always have some place to sleep?
09:56<andythenorth_>well it could be a botel
09:57<andythenorth_>in the boat case
09:57<andythenorth_>I stayed in a botel once :)
09:57<Yexo>sure, in that case it could be a resort, but not if it only has a restaurant
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10:24<@planetmaker><Terkhen> what was the reason for using "fruits and vegetables" instead of the default cargo?
10:24<@planetmaker><andythenorth_> Not sure <-- IIRC the argument was along the lines of cargo classes differing
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10:26<__ln__>hello Guest1817
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10:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: orudge * r22320 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#4590]: "Shopping centre" is more accurate in British English
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11:32<andythenorth>I could exclude the boat variation of the hotel
11:33<andythenorth>that would make coding easier too....
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11:38<andythenorth>Hotel should accept / produce PAX in addition to other cargos?
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11:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth, sounds reasonable
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, i was gonna ask about that yesterday ;)
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>question is: how much?
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>same as goes in (like secondary), or fixed value (like primary)
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>i think "like secondary" should work...
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm... might interfere with houses accepting nearby, then either all or no cargo gets to the hotel...
12:22<andythenorth>not sure
12:22<andythenorth>probably just the same as oil rig
12:22<andythenorth>accept all PAX
12:22<andythenorth>supply at fixed rate
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12:23<@planetmaker>adventure holidays: holidays on an oil rig.
12:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth, also, the argument for fruits & vegetables vs fruit was IIRC along the lines of different cargo classes
12:27<andythenorth>sounds plausible
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12:36<andythenorth>a hotel could also produce / accept mail
12:36<andythenorth>if I use tile acceptance rather than industry acceptance
12:37<supermop>oooh i need to brush up on my german
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12:39<@planetmaker>usually it should not be needed in this channel, supermop ;-)
12:40<supermop>a very importan german is coming next month
12:40<supermop>i need to remember how to use Sie instead of du
12:41<@planetmaker>3rd person plural. That's it ;-)
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>"man" is the word ;
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12:41<@planetmaker>may sound awkward, though, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
12:42<@planetmaker>But it's a "trick" when you don't know whether you can / should say "Du" or rather "Sie"
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and most germans react badly to bad german, speak english instead ;)
12:42<supermop>wait, i talk about him as if he was a hypothetical person?
12:42<@planetmaker>nope ;-)
12:42<supermop>this guy is definately Sie
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>another great way to avoid the problem is using passive ;)
12:42<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: a lot of germans do not understand english
12:43<supermop>this guy is ok at english, and is very nice, i hear
12:43<@planetmaker>But one could say "Man könnte heute Abend ins Restaurant gehen" instead of "Ich schlage Ihnen vor, heute Abend mit uns ins Restaurant zu gehen"
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: but for higher positions in businesses, english is mandatory
12:43<supermop>he is retired
12:43<supermop>sort of
12:43<supermop>designers never retire
12:44<supermop>he actually just released a bunch of new watches based on his old classic designs
12:45<andythenorth>black hole industries don't produce :(
12:45<@planetmaker>Most probably it's a nice gesture to greet him in German, but to do business in English
12:46<andythenorth>if I make the hotel a secondary industry I have to deal with a whole lot of other stuff :|
12:46<@planetmaker>it'll produce waste ;-)
12:47<andythenorth>only if I make it a secondary, and deal with production cbs etc :|
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make it a primary, and if it gets incoming cargo (passengers, alcohol) then it has a slight chance of increasing
12:47*andythenorth tests
12:48<andythenorth>I'll still have to write production cb code etc
12:48<__ln__>dunno... assuming supermop can actually speak useful amount of german, isn't it then a bit silly to revert to english?
12:48<supermop>I could speak decent german,
12:48<supermop>a few years ago
12:48<supermop>now, i don't know
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>we should switch this channel to german, so you can train ;)
12:49<larsemil>i was fluent back in the days, when i was 12. now i am 27 and dont remember that much
12:49<supermop>is there a german ottd channel?
12:49<__ln__>i don't think one can forget decent skills in some language in just a few years at adult age
12:49*andythenorth has
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: no, there was not enough demand
12:49<supermop>once i am going, it will come back
12:50<supermop>its just getting over that hump will be hard
12:50<supermop>and while i might regain confidence, there will be big holes in my vocabulary
12:50*andythenorth has lost french, german, spanish, and actionscript
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12:52<__ln__>ich habe deutsch zum letzten mal im jahr 2000 in der schule gelernt, und habe nicht ganz alles vergessen.
12:52<andythenorth>ich spreche deutsch nicht so gut
12:53<andythenorth>me hablo espanol un pequeno
12:53<andythenorth>je parle un petit peut de francais
12:53*andythenorth back to work
12:54<@planetmaker>Je ne peut plus parles en francaise
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>me aussi.
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12:55<V453000>you know how bad is french beer?
12:56<@planetmaker>ah, but they have cheese fondue
12:56<@planetmaker>and mousse au chocolat
12:56<@planetmaker>and cr`eme bruil'ee
12:56<supermop>what they lack in beer is made up for in fattening things
12:57*andythenorth advises paying attention to linter failures before declaring things don't work
12:57<andythenorth>8 passengers a month may be a little low for a hotel...
12:58<V453000>what is cheese in compare with beer
12:58<V453000>or the other shit :p
12:58<andythenorth>how about 120 passengers / month
12:58<andythenorth>V453000: cheese is essential if you drink cider instead of beer
12:59<@planetmaker>V453000, cheese makes a very good basis for increased beer consumption
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12:59<V453000>stinks so much that you need to beat it with something else? :D
12:59<XeryusTC>cheese is not good for anything
12:59<@planetmaker>apropos cheese.... dinner time :-)
13:00<@Terkhen>cheese > beer
13:00<supermop>how dar you
13:00<@Terkhen>because it's true ;)
13:00<XeryusTC>you sir, have not tasted proper beer
13:00<supermop>cheese is the best thing from england, as well
13:01<@Terkhen>that argument can easily be reversed to prove that I'm right :)
13:01<andythenorth>both cheese, beer and cider are available in FIRS
13:01<supermop>i have had plenty of amazing beers
13:01<ZirconiumX>@XeryusTC CAMRA FTW!
13:01<supermop>plenty of amazing cheeses
13:01<supermop>cornish yarg
13:02<XeryusTC>ZirconiumX: i dont live in the UK
13:02<ZirconiumX>none the less - you have to admire them
13:02<ZirconiumX>their last event combined cheese and beer
13:02<ZirconiumX>there - draw a deal
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13:03<Eddi|zuHause>the only use for cheese is on pizza.
13:03<ZirconiumX>You there, Yexo? Squirrel's complaining about a line - a wierd one at that
13:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wrong wrong wrong
13:04<andythenorth>for that comment, your next three FIRS requests are automatically disallowed
13:04<ZirconiumX>else if (getG(s_start) == infinity) { // path = null; return false; <--- note the comment
13:04<ZirconiumX>I'm pro cheese
13:05<ZirconiumX>@andythenorth - what's your favourite cheese?
13:05<andythenorth>most of them
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13:05<ZirconiumX>I'm one for blue cheeses - Stilton being my favourite
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: you shouldn't comment out the } on that line though
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13:06<XeryusTC>cheese is an abbomination
13:06<ZirconiumX>I haven't
13:06<ZirconiumX>I'm crackers about crackers - personally
13:07<ZirconiumX>infinity's still too big <end of pm favourite line>
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13:07*andythenorth ponders
13:08<andythenorth>there are going to be some minor conflicts between FIRS and default towns
13:08<andythenorth>wrt sense for players, not code
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13:09<andythenorth>default towns already add supermarkets, hotels etc
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>one douk comes never alone?
13:09<ZirconiumX>@andythenorth - I'd use FIRS - if it had Pikka's Basic Industries - esque graphics
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't make a lot of sense in english.
13:09<ZirconiumX>but it doesn't - so I don't
13:09<andythenorth>ZirconiumX: I am not understanding that point?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can disable them
13:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I thought of that. Is it a good idea?
13:10<andythenorth>screwing with towns?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that won't even affect any house sets
13:10<ZirconiumX>Sorry - I thought you were rrefering to graphics
13:10<andythenorth>ZirconiumX: what are PBI-esque graphics like?
13:10<andythenorth>(I know what PBI is like, I mean, what do you mean by them?)
13:11<ZirconiumX>like the original graphics - I feel they blend in more - but that's just me
13:11<andythenorth>ho well
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13:11<andythenorth>ZirconiumX: there's not much I can do about that :(
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>there's no real problem with FIRS blending in
13:11<andythenorth>I am trying to draw as close to original as possible.
13:11<andythenorth>I don't think there's anyone else drawing closer to original style now
13:11<ZirconiumX>I feel FIRS only blends in with OpenGFX
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>a propos blending in, i think the snowline calculation for FIRS forests is wrong
13:12<andythenorth>PBI just reuses default graphics, so it's easy
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>or my screwing with it is...
13:12<@Alberth>andythenorth: :)
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>screwing with the snowline, not FIRS....
13:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: bug report if you think there's an issue
13:12<andythenorth>snowline calculation is hard to perfect
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, in my current game i get snowy forest in grassy areas
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: whereabout in the code is the snowline calculation? maybe i should have a look myself
13:13<supermop>I love a good stilton
13:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause you have a checkout?
13:13<andythenorth>somewhere complicated no doubt...
13:13<andythenorth>I'll look
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>of a few weeks ago, so if you did screw with that in the past few weeks, i should update first
13:14<ZirconiumX>at least FIRS isn't ECS :eyesore:
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>any savegame breaking things i should worry about?
13:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: sprites/nfo/industries/forest.pnfo
13:15<andythenorth>should be savegame safe approximately
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>ah, i'll skip updating for now
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>one step at a time
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>hm "\2- 20 20 \wxFF //get current snowline height" <-- likely a conflict with more heightlevels, where height*8 may exceed 0xFF
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13:32<ZirconiumX>I just lost The Game
13:33<LordAro>i just lost it again :)
13:33<ZirconiumX>That's the second Time I've just lost it
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13:37<andythenorth_>ZirconiumX: out of interest, when did you last try FIRS?
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13:41<ZirconiumX>last week
13:41<andythenorth_>any idea what version?
13:42<andythenorth_>I ask because I've been slowly moving industries closer to default style
13:43<andythenorth_>it would be useful to know which ones still stand out as opengfx style
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22321 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt russian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by KorneySan
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14:03<flitz>when I do FOR_ALL_VEHICLES and just print each result, I get some odd results inbetween, that have engine_type:0 and subtype:1, DEFAULT_GROUP and other default values
14:03<flitz>are these inconsistencies or just free room in the vehicle pool ?
14:07<@Alberth>you should check the vehicle type
14:08<@Alberth>there are also effect-vehicles (smoke, sparks) and disaster-vehicles
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14:09<flitz>do disaster and effect vehicles to a company too ? (can't check right now, sry)
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14:10<@Alberth>probably not, but I am not entirely sure
14:10<@Alberth>eg smoke from a power plant is also a vehicle
14:11<flitz>I can check in a few minutes, brb
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14:35<andythenorth_>as zirconium didn't reply - anyone want to suggest FIRS industries for graphics tweaks?
14:35<andythenorth_>specifically so in the direction of being in style of default graphics...
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14:36<andythenorth_>this might help, although it's outdated a bit...
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14:36<flitz>Alberth: with vehicle type you meant vehicle->type, right ?
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>the bakery looked a bit weird...
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause>it didn't look bakery-y, but i don't even know what that means :p
14:37<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: I know what you mean
14:37<andythenorth_>although it's one of the few buildings drawn directly from RL :P
14:37<andythenorth_>does it fit in game though?
14:40<@Alberth>flitz: yes, with values from enum VehicleType
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause>the difference in style gets obvious where you reuse original graphics. compare the machine shop with the steel mill, or compare the cement works with the refinery
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14:43<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: I redrew machine shop recently for that reason
14:44<Hendikins>You know, it is possibly a bad thing that one of the first things I thought about my new 2560x1440 display is "you know, openttd would look great on that..."
14:44<flitz>Alberth: because it's weird, if I just print the value in gdb, I get the 0 I expect, but with printf I get -1^30
14:44<andythenorth_> ultimately FIRS will never look TTD style unless I break industries into single-tile modules
14:44<andythenorth_>(in most cases)
14:45<@Alberth>flitz: interesting byte value :p
14:45<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: any other cases?
14:45<supermop>does it have to look tt style?
14:45<flitz>Alberth: I just saw the VehiclyType is a TinyEnum<>, that could explain it
14:47<@Alberth>no idea, I don't know enough of the details of C++ to understand the consequences of such constructs exactly
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: not that i'm aware of
14:48<andythenorth_>supermop: yes
14:48<andythenorth_>it's become a personal obsession
14:48<andythenorth_>for better or worse
14:48<andythenorth_>supermop: it's a goal I can never win, due to various choices I made :P
14:49<andythenorth_>a better goal would be what zirconium said - it blends in with ttd style
14:49<andythenorth_>ttd style is not consistent anyway, it must have taken simon foster a long time to do
14:50<andythenorth_>and there was a gap between TTO and TTD
14:50<andythenorth_>there are mistakes, inconsistencies etc :)
14:51<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: the textile mill troubles me
14:51<flitz>Alberth: no problem, your tip helped either way
14:51<andythenorth_>I redrew the roof sometime ago, but the texturing is just not right
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: you will always find things that are "not right" :p
14:52<andythenorth_>I know
14:52<andythenorth_>it helps that I now know which way the light comes from
14:52<andythenorth_>someone made a very big mistake in TTDP wiki some years ago
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16:08<LordAro>how's this:
16:09<supermop>i dont like purple windows
16:09<supermop>i cant make them look right
16:11<andythenorth_>supermop: they're hard
16:11<andythenorth_>but correct
16:12<andythenorth_>the only fixed rule is darkest at the top
16:12<supermop>with warehouses or industrial buildings,
16:12<andythenorth_>everything else varies according to the effect
16:12<supermop>that have frosted old panes
16:12<andythenorth_>paste your work in progress somewhere?
16:12<supermop>i think shades of teal look better
16:12<andythenorth_>I've had to solve this for FIRS
16:13<andythenorth_>supermop: the default station has brown windows, if you want an excuse to vary them
16:13<supermop>but on city buildings with clear or reflective glass i have been trying purple
16:13<supermop>i have a thread with my nakagin building
16:13<supermop>but i havent had time to touch it since saturday
16:13<supermop>the round windows are really hard
16:15<andythenorth_>the duplication between FRUT (default) and FRVG (FIRS) is silly
16:15<LordAro>Alberth: a problem with your function/my code (see above) - it always returns false
16:15<andythenorth_>but fruit is not bulk, refrigerated in my view :|
16:16<@Alberth>if (this->avail_sel == NULL) c = this->avail_sel; <-- what does that do?
16:19<frosch123>fruit is refridgerated?
16:19<@Alberth>LordAro: ^
16:19<frosch123>do you put your fruit in a fridge? :s
16:19<andythenorth_>frosch123: some of it
16:20<andythenorth_>not all of it
16:20<andythenorth_>but who cares about my habits :)
16:20<LordAro>Alberth: damn, sorry, forgot a '!' :)
16:20<@Alberth>that may make a difference :)
16:21<frosch123>you can put vegetables in the fridge, but fruit is best outside (not necessary in the sun)
16:21<andythenorth_>well I didn't choose those classes ;)
16:23<LordAro>Alberth/whoever-else-cares: Yay! that works :)
16:23<LordAro>now, finding and reading the readme, then printing it...
16:24<LordAro>finding it is already done however
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16:47<Zuu>LordAro: Are you coding a readme viewer for banans?
16:47<LordAro>slowly, but surely, yes :)
16:48<andythenorth_>win win
16:48<Zuu>Nice that you are taking yourself time with it.
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16:52<Zuu>Trying to code is a good way to learn :-)
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16:54<LordAro>andythenorth_: sums me up perfectly, i think :D
16:56*LordAro changes his forum signature
16:59<@Alberth>Zuu: not for bananas, but for local newgrfs instead afaik
16:59<Zuu>Just newgrfs or also AIs?
17:00<@Alberth>currently just newgrfs, but who know what LA has planned :p
17:02<@Alberth>given that they are also saved in tar files, in the same way, it should be quite simple to extend
17:04*LordAro hasn't planned much, probably just newgrfs for now, expand to AIs later (and maybe even things like base sets/sounds/whatever and heightmaps!) :)
17:05<LordAro>night all
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17:21<andythenorth_>eez bed time
17:21<andythenorth_>good nights
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 14 00:00:02 2011