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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-15

---Logopened Fri Apr 15 00:00:19 2011
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01:50<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:18<@planetmaker>moin
02:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22322 /trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp: -Fix [FS#4593]: Obey the law of conservation of parantheses in the console help
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 15 02:39:50 2011
---Logopened Fri Apr 15 02:40:09 2011
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02:40-!-Irssi: #openttd: Total of 106 nicks [7 ops, 0 halfops, 1 voices, 98 normal]
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02:56<LordAro>moin
03:00<LordAro>12:06:47 <@Terkhen> hmm... I was looking for the line that LordAro pasted, but of course that is not present :) <- which line was it you wanted?
03:02<LordAro>11:46:36 <@planetmaker> LordAro: upgrading your bash won't solve a thing. Certainly <- definitely: "...since /bin/sh on Ubuntu is dash, not bash"
03:02<LordAro>whatever dash is... :)
03:04<@Terkhen>I don't remember that
03:04<@Terkhen>something about REPO_VERSION
03:05<@planetmaker>LordAro: that exactly might be the issue. dash syntax might be (slightly) different from bash syntax
03:06<LordAro>Terkhen: this? REPO_REVISION := $(shell let tmp=$(shell $(HG) id -n | cut -d+ -f1)+96; echo $$tmp)
03:06<@Terkhen>probably
03:07<@planetmaker>REPO_REVISION := $(shell let x=`$(HG) id -n | cut -d+ -f1`+96; echo $$x) <-- this syntax works here
03:07<LordAro>planetmaker: yes, in fact the ubuntu forums thread i'm looking at tells me to use #! /bin/bash instead - will that be ok at openttdcoop?
03:07<@planetmaker>mind that you use two times $(shell which might be an issue
03:07<@planetmaker>it will. But I wonder whether it works on mingw
03:08<LordAro>if i've got bash installed :)
03:08<@planetmaker>afaik mingw just calls it sh, though
03:08<LordAro>but i don't care about that, as long as it works on opentdcoop, thats fine for me
03:09<LordAro>works :)
03:10<@peter1138>Oh dear. Just applied MJP's zoom64 patch.
03:10<@peter1138>Boom, crashed :p
03:10<dihedral>morning
03:11<LordAro>planetmaker: do you know if ottdcoop supports the -i parameter of sed?
03:11<@planetmaker>not by heart. I recon yes, though
03:12<@planetmaker>but why, if you can just re-use the existing makefile code?
03:12<@planetmaker>but it seems to be not a gnu-specific extension, so it should be fine
03:16<LordAro>i don't understand the existing makefile code :P
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03:39<LordAro>how long does firs normally take to compile? i copied the relavent bits into my makefile, and its been about five mins now :L
03:41<@Terkhen>LordAro: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt#L142
03:43<LordAro>i'm on ubuntu right now :P
03:43<LordAro>do you think its got itself into an infinite loop?
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03:53<@Alberth>7 seconds at my system
03:55<@Alberth>http://www.fpaste.org/cNCw/ <-- output of the firs build
03:57<@Terkhen>LordAro: modified firs?
03:58<LordAro>don't worry, i think it was some sort of infinite loop
03:58<LordAro>commit coming up shortly :)
04:03<LordAro>(mind-freeze) what do you call the file-endings? (e.g. *.txt or whatever)
04:04<LordAro>lol, file extensions :)
04:05<@Alberth>technically, filename extensions :)
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05:16<LordAro>ok, this line "$(_V) $(shell $(HG) archive -X glob:.* -X path:Makefile $(BUNDLE_NAME))" is stopping .txt files (generated on make) being included how can i fix this?
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05:21<@Alberth>do you know what BUNDLE_NAME is ?
05:21<@Alberth>run the command manually, and see what it says
05:22<@Alberth>ie hg archive -X glob:.* -X path:Makefile $BUNDLE_NAME <-- but you may want to replace $... by the contents of BUNDLE_NAME
05:22<@Alberth>the * looks fishy
05:24<@Alberth>gtg, good luck
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05:24<LordAro>BUNDLE_NAME := $(FILENAME)-$(VERSION_STRING)
05:24<LordAro>damnation
05:25<LordAro>anyone else there? :)
05:25<dihedral>no
05:25<@planetmaker>make _V= also helps
05:25<LordAro>fine
05:25<dihedral>_V?
05:25<LordAro>@
05:25<@planetmaker>yes
05:26<@planetmaker>dihedral, setting it to "" will make show every line. Default _V=@
05:26<@planetmaker>which will hide all output unless echo is used
05:26<dihedral>ah :-)
05:26<@planetmaker>for debugging _V= is quite recommended
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05:26<LordAro>i have an idea... hang on
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05:32<SmatZ>make VERBOSE=1 ?
05:33<LordAro>my fix worked :) (see #openttdcoop.devzone )
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07:12<__ln__>http://www.google.com/
07:13<flitz>hi openttd
07:14<blathijs>__ln__: Is that a preemptive answer for stupid questions? ;-p
07:14<blathijs>hi flitz!
07:15<__ln__>blathijs: it serves that purpose too
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07:20<Wolf01>hello
07:22<@planetmaker>blathijs, did you look at it? ;-)
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07:25<flitz>hi wolf
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07:37<blathijs>planetmaker: Heh, I didn't before :-)
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07:40<blathijs>planetmaker: Ah, nice :-)
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08:18<Ammler>blathijs: is debian packaging able to make package for different debian versions with same dsc?
08:20<blathijs>Ammler: There can't be any differences, then
08:20<blathijs>Ammler: But you can compile the same DSC on multiple debian versions?
08:20<Ammler>e.q. python3-dev is anly availalbe on 6.0
08:21<Ammler>how do you make the rule so the same dsc works also for 5.0?
08:21<blathijs>Ammler: It mostly depends on the dependencies
08:22<blathijs>Ammler: If a package's (build)-dependencies are available, you can build the dsc
08:22<blathijs>Ammler: The resulting dependencies of the binary package might be different then, because the versions in dependencies are often autodetected
08:23<Ammler>well, in this case, it is a subpackage needed for debian 6 only
08:23<Ammler>if no python3 is available don't make that subpackage
08:24<blathijs>brb, lunch
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08:46<Regiovogel>hi guys!
08:46<@planetmaker>hi
08:47<Regiovogel>a quick question regarding delivering of cargos...
08:47<Regiovogel>if i have a station between two industries and the cargo is accepted by both, which industry gets it? the nearest one?
08:48<@Yexo>I think the one nearest to the station sign
08:50<Regiovogel>and there is no chance to distribute it to all industries in the catchment area?
08:50<Regiovogel>would be quite nice in this situation i'm having here :)
08:50<@planetmaker>there is. Overload the first industry
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08:51<Eddi|zuHause>use "transfer" at the main station, and then two small branch railways/industrial trams
08:52<Regiovogel>overloading might not work because i'm playing with FIRS and delivering only small amounts at a time ;)
08:52<confound>what eddi said
08:52<Regiovogel>well, it's already an industrial tram, so...
08:52<@planetmaker>also... catchment area acceptance != catchment area delievery to station
08:52<@planetmaker>so which catchment area? ;-)
08:52<confound>a truck, then. whatever
08:53<@planetmaker>or use orders like pickup A, deliver B, pickup A, deliver C
08:53<Regiovogel>i wasn't aware there are different catchment areas ;)
08:53<@planetmaker>split your delivery station to two
08:53<Regiovogel>what would be the difference between them?
08:54<@planetmaker>acceptance: around station tiles according to station type
08:54<@planetmaker>delivery to station: rectangle around two most distant station tiles
08:54<Regiovogel>i think i'll give up the tram route and replace it with a train route and then distribute it with short tram routes... should work well
08:55<Regiovogel>aah, okay. thanks
09:00<blathijs>Ammler: This subpackage, is it not required on 6.0, or is it impossible to build, because of the lack of python3?
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09:13<Ammler>blathijs: opposite, there is no python3-dev for 5.0, with rpm you just make %if %{debian_version} >=6... something like that not possible with deb, right?
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09:15<Ammler>there is currently no such thing in openttd
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: can you say "it's recommended" instead of "it's required", so it will be skipped if it's not available?
09:21<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: dunno
09:22<Ammler>well, it is not really necesssary we just had a discussion about rpm/dep specs and were wondering about that
09:22<Ammler>the guy does now make 2 packages, von for 5 and one for 6
09:23<Ammler>it is just not the usual way on the obs, there you make one spec for every supported version
09:32<blathijs>Ammler: Usually on Debian, everything is uploaded to unstable and then migratest trhough testing to stable, so this issue isn't really relevant in normal Debian packages
09:32<blathijs>Ammler: if a package is every compiled specifically for testing or stable, it's because there are backported changes (security fixes), so the source package is different anyway
09:33<Ammler>blathijs: of course it will be build seperately, but rpm can do that with same spec
09:33<Ammler>debian needs in such cases a modified dsc
09:34<blathijs>Ammler: Yes, but I'm saying that normally, the actual source is different anyway, so there's no problem
09:34<blathijs>Ammler: But I'm still trying to find out your actual problem: Is the package irrelevant without python3-dev, or just imposible without it, or?
09:35<Ammler>well, it is a problem if you like to maintain the build script from upstream
09:35<Ammler>you need to supply both versions
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09:36<Ammler>the subpackage is irrelevant and not needed without python3
09:36<blathijs>What is it? Python3 bindings or something?
09:36<blathijs>Is there a python2 version of the same package?
09:37<Ammler>https://build.opensuse.org/package/files?package=scalaris-svn-bindings&project=home%3Atschuett
09:41<blathijs>Hmm...
09:41<@Belugas>hello
09:43<blathijs>Ammler: I'm poking #debian-devel about this :-)
09:44<Ammler>blathijs: this dcs now works with debain 6 only, how would you modify it to use for both at same time?
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09:46<blathijs>Ammler: I'm not sure. I think it needs to have an optional build dependency to make it work
09:46<Ammler>hehe, someone just meant, the dsc is autogenerated ususally
09:46<blathijs>huh?
09:47<blathijs>"meant" looks wrong in that sentence :-)
09:47-!-You're now known as mikegrb
09:49<Ammler>"claims"?
09:50<Ammler>or predicate, dunno
09:50<blathijs>Ammler: So the problem went away?
09:50<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:51<Ammler>no, is that true?
09:51<Ammler>you don't need a dsc file for openttd?
09:51<@Belugas>mister planetmaker :) hello my friend
09:52<@planetmaker>:-)
09:52*planetmaker looks forward to the weekend. Will be soon-ish :-)
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10:05<@Belugas>quite
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10:11<flitz>template replacement becomes more and more of a project the more I work on it
10:12<flitz>and that without adding new features so far
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10:19<dihedral>"[project] becomes more and more of a project the more I work on it" <- is that not a given?
10:20<flitz>hm yes, but for me its usually because of other reasons :)
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10:26<flitz>technical question: I have a struct TemplateVehicle that has only data members and functions which are also present in either Vehicle or Train, that should enable me to use commands like CmdMoveRailVehicle on it, right ?
10:26<flitz>I mean, by doing a pointer cast from *TemplateVehicle to *Train or *vehicle first
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10:40<@Yexo>flitz: such a cast is only possible if TemplateVehicle is a subclass of Train (or Vehicle in the second case)
10:41<flitz>that would contradict the purpose of my struct because I wanted to abstract from a lot of things that Vehicle (or Train respectively) is using but still use some of those related functions
10:41<Cozzie>hi guys =)
10:41<flitz>so, this means a re-write of those functions for my own struct ?
10:42<flitz>hi cozzie
10:42<@Yexo>flitz: you could make those functions template functions
10:43<@Yexo>why is it a problem to make TemplateVehicle a subclass of Vehicle (or the other way around)?
10:45<flitz>With the templatevehicle I just wanted to keep it slim because I don't need a lot of things that Vehicle has, right now TemplateVehicle only derives from BaseVehicle, but I could maybe put it inbetween the inheritance of BaseVehicle and GroundVehicle
10:46<flitz>or just use normal Vehicles instead of a dedicated structure, which would add some bloat, though I don't know if that would ever hurt
10:46<@Yexo>if GroundVehicle inherits from TemplateVehicle, you could modify those functions to accept TemplateVehicle* instead of Vehicle* and it should just work
10:47<@Yexo>what is the point of TemplateVehicle?
10:47<flitz>from this thread: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=52972
10:48<@Yexo>ah, I see
10:48<flitz>the number of templates in any savegame should be about the same magnitude as the number of groups I would guess
10:49<flitz>so, maybe just using Train instead of TemplateVehicle would be ok, but idk
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/2177.jpg <-- that's probably something for HEQS (around 1940)
10:49<@Yexo>is TemplateVehicle only one part of the template (like Vehicle) or is it the complete template (so all parts in one struct)?
10:50<flitz>one part, I chain them up like the game does with vehicles already
10:51<flitz>and use the pointer to the first engine as pointer to the whole template
10:51<@Yexo>ok, so just like vehicles
10:51<@Yexo>I guess I'd template CmdMoveRailVehicle
10:51<@Yexo>you'll need two different commands (as in, command ids), so a little wrapper around that template is necessary
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10:52<flitz>so I will call CmdMoveAnyVehicle which will check the type input value and will then call CmdMoveRailVehicle or CmdMoveTemplateVehicle ?
10:53<@Yexo>no, you call either CmdMoveRailVehicle or CmdMoveTemplateVehicle which are both wrappers around the real function CmdMoveAnyVehicle<T>
10:54<flitz>or this way :)
10:54<@Yexo>unless you are storing the template vehicles in the vehicle pool, in which case you could detect the type at runtime
10:54<@Yexo>I just realized you're probably doing that, since you're making a subclass of BaseVehicle
10:55<flitz>right now I have my own pool for templatevehicles
10:55<@Yexo>ah, ok :)
10:55<flitz>but that doesn't necessarily need to stay that way ;)
10:55<@Yexo>in that case you definitely need a second command, since there is no way to determine at runtime whether a given id points to a TemplateVehicle or a Train
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10:56<flitz>what is the usual limit on trains in a game ? 500 ?
10:56<@Yexo>500 is the default, you can change the setting up to 5000
10:56<@Yexo>but that is total number of trains, not vehicle parts
10:56<@planetmaker>per player also
10:56<@Yexo>1000-1500 trains is about the limit in most multiplayer games, more and most CPUs won't be able to handle it
10:57<flitz>hm, so having specified like 50 templates (as in full chains) which are trains themselves only with INVALID_TILE and DEFAULT_GROUP would make some kind of difference
10:57<flitz>just performance-wise
10:57<flitz>memory-performance
10:57<@Yexo>I doubt it'll make much of a performance impact
10:57<@planetmaker>well... the performance "loss" for vehicles occurs due to path finding
10:57<@planetmaker>memory is not an issue usually
10:58<@Yexo>try stopping all trains in a big savegame, you'll be able to notice the difference
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10:58<@Yexo>which indicates that a stopped train takes much less cpu than a running one
10:58<flitz>but the lookup for vehicle ids in the pool is linear, isn't it ?
10:58<@Yexo>yes
10:58<@Yexo>however there are several FOR_ALL_VEHICLES(v) loops in the code, which would have to skip TempalteVehicle (in most cases)
10:59<flitz>increasing the pool by about 5-10% would mean some increase in those lookups through runtime
10:59<flitz>idk how much of a difference that would make
10:59<@planetmaker>Please remind me: what was the reason agains a separate pool for templates?
10:59<@Yexo>sorry, lookup for Vehicle* (from VehicleID) is constant, not linear
11:00<flitz>to be able to use the existing functions for trains, like CmdMoveRailVehicle
11:00*Yexo should pay more attention
11:00<flitz>ah, constant is good
11:00<@planetmaker>hm... isn't it just possible to have two vehicle pools?
11:00<@Yexo>sure, but that means you are already creating a second pool :)
11:01<@planetmaker>yes, that's what I'm asking, what reasons are there against that
11:01<flitz>ah, I forgot that vehicle and the likes also inherit from poolitem
11:01<@Yexo>nothing really, but there is also nothing wrong with adding them to the existing vehicle pool
11:01<flitz>so I don't even need to specified in which pool the lookup needs to be done
11:02<@planetmaker>hm... yeah, probably the disaster or effect vehicles are skipped in most cases anyway, too
11:02<@Yexo>yes
11:02<@Yexo>and non-primary parts in several cases too
11:02<@planetmaker>yep, point taken :-)
11:02<flitz>if I just use Train instead of TemplateVehicle but store them in their own pool, I wouldn't need to change anything to use CmdMoveRailVehicle and the likes on my templates, right ?
11:03<@Yexo>you can't use train and store them in another pool, at least not easily
11:03<flitz>*reviews his own code*
11:04<flitz>true
11:04<flitz>maybe I will just use Train and the usual vehicle pool then
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11:07<@Yexo>flitz: what about something like this? http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/fix.diff
11:08<Cozzie>wow im terrible at setting timetables =x
11:09<flitz>Yexo: for this I would need to inherit BaseVehicle -> TemplateVehicle -> GroundVehicle in order to make this type-checkable at runtime ?
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11:12<@Yexo>no, for this you don't need any type-checking at runtime at all
11:12<@Yexo>so you can inherit as you like
11:12<@Yexo>you just have to make sure that both Train and TemplateVehicle have the functions and variables used in CmdMoveAnyVehicle
11:13<flitz>yep
11:13<flitz>so this solution looks best, clean but still slim like intended
11:14<flitz>I will need to check which commands I need to modify that way, I was intending to adopt some style from the depot-gui to use for template creation
11:14<@Yexo>how do you plan to draw a TemplateVehicle?
11:14<flitz>on a matrix widget
11:15<@Yexo>yes, but how to get the graphics?
11:15<flitz>I didn't check yet :>
11:15<flitz>basically, like vehicles do, I just didn't look how they do it so far
11:16<flitz>I though they had some kind of index into some kind of structure which maps available trains against used graphics sets or something like that
11:16<@Yexo>that'll be a lot of trouble
11:16<@Yexo>it's not quite as easy as that
11:16<flitz>hm
11:17<@Yexo>well, not with newgrf vehicles at least
11:17<@Yexo>basically it'll come down to calling GetCustomEngineSprite(EngineID, Vehicle * (can be NULL), Direction)
11:18<@Yexo>however a wagon can modify it's graphics depending on which engine it's attached too, but you can't show those graphics in the template
11:18<@Yexo>which means a final vehicle will look different than the original template, despite having the same EngineIDs
11:19<flitz>I should have informed myself better before starting
11:19<@Yexo>it's not a critical issue, but something to be aware of
11:20<@Yexo>I don't think there is a way around that problem without changes to the newgrf spec
11:23-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
11:23<supermop>I'm freaking out!
11:23<flitz>lets say, there are 50 template-chains defined by one player at any one point within the game
11:24<flitz>each one of avg length of 12 vehicles
11:24<flitz>sizeof(*Train) is 352
11:24<Cozzie>it's not really useful to have a timetable for a 2 station route with 30 buses (and breakdowns on) is it?
11:24<@Yexo>breakdowns on and timetables don't really work well together imo
11:25<Cozzie>yeah i realized
11:25<flitz>makes 206kb of additional memory used for my template trains (if they are real Train*'s)
11:25<Cozzie>thought i was making some mistakes heh
11:25<flitz>seems not too bad
11:25<Cozzie>cause another route with 3 trucks work very well
11:25<flitz>if lookup time is constant anyways
11:26<flitz>and I don't run into future problems because my TemplateVehicle structure is missing something important
11:27<supermop>now i really need to practice my german
11:27<flitz>yexo: am I missing something ?
11:27<flitz>why, supermop
11:27<@Yexo>I don't think so
11:28<@Yexo>you'll have to take extra care so your template trains don't show up in the train list etc.
11:28<flitz>then I will just use Train for simplicity :) thanks for the help
11:28<flitz>yes
11:28<supermop>its not just Lubs anymore
11:28<supermop>Rams is coming too
11:29<flitz>yexo: I could just derive from train and make my own pool to deal with that
11:29<@Yexo>no, because in that case you can't reuse CmdMoveRailVehicle and friends anymore
11:30<@Yexo>because those call Vehicle::Get() to get a vehicle pointer from a VehicleID
11:31<flitz>has Train its own Get() method ?
11:33<flitz>ah, its from poolitem
11:36<flitz>"you'll have to take extra care so your template trains don't show up in the train list etc." <<-- then I guess, I could extend the subtype flag because it currently uses only 6 of its bits
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11:42<flitz>I need to go and buy some food, thanks for helping
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11:53<dihedral>http://www.stickycomics.com/where-did-you-meet/
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12:49<@Belugas>buwhahaha!!!! way to go planetmaker :D http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=54103
12:50<@Belugas>that is such a nice case of FEED-ME ;)
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12:52<supermop_>nice
12:56<@planetmaker>it very much is. But now I can always say "see here you lazy a**"
12:59<__ln__>apropos, wouldn't ~/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD/data be a more appropriate place for data files?
13:01<@planetmaker>and for savegames? And screenshots?
13:02<__ln__>not for those, obviously.
13:02<@planetmaker>which would mean to split up the OpenTTD folder
13:02<__ln__>indeed.
13:03<@planetmaker>while it might make sense from the intention of those folders, I'd not fancy to split up these things
13:03<@planetmaker>it'd mean much extra code for those dirs... for no real gain
13:04<@planetmaker>and it'd be more difficult to just backup your whole OpenTTD stuff
13:04<__ln__>valid arguments
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13:07<frosch123>planetmaker: i am unable to follow your download tutorial, there are no cute animals in the pictures
13:08<@planetmaker>oh, sorry ;-)
13:08<@planetmaker>I'm afraid I don't produce videos
13:08<@planetmaker>:-D
13:08<frosch123>yeah, your support sucks :p
13:09<@planetmaker>:-)
13:09<@planetmaker>my vacuum cleaner is doing overtime to keep the sucking alive :-P
13:09<frosch123>:s
13:10<@Terkhen>:D
13:11*frosch123 anticipates a warning for poseidon by some forum moderator
13:12<@planetmaker>he well deserves it. Already for his poll which does not contain a single word
13:13<frosch123>yeah, that's what i meant. are there more reasons? :o
13:13<@planetmaker>:-) maybe the posting I replied to. But being less intelligent than my kitchen table usually is not punishable
13:14<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> it'd mean much extra code for those dirs... for no real gain <-- i thought that code is already there
13:15<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: for a split of the data dir?
13:15<@planetmaker>I haven't looked, but I'd be surprised
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: for supporting "Application Support" dir
13:16<@planetmaker>and not being used?
13:16<supermop_>i need to find a german tutor
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 11837
13:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by bjarni :: r11837 /trunk (config.lib src/fileio.cpp) (2008-01-13 17:45:29 UTC)
13:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Feature: [OSX] added "/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD" to the search paths (based on patch by pv2b)
13:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: It is possible to set this to something else setting shared-dir with config
13:17<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: This works on other OSes as well but it's off by default (and not really tested)
13:18<@planetmaker>interesting
13:18<Ammler>not working with linux afaik
13:18<@planetmaker>that's why it's prefixed [OSX]
13:18<Ammler>"...This works on other OSes..."
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>"not [...] tested"
13:19<@planetmaker>"off by default"
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13:19<frosch123>"bjarni"
13:19<Ammler>yeah, if you enable it of course :-P
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>"[OSX]"
13:19<__ln__>thank you Bjarni for implementing my suggestion three years before i suggested it.
13:21<Ammler>linux default share could be e.g. /usr/share/openttd
13:21<Ammler>and the packager could set it to /usr/local/share/openttd
13:21<Ammler>games something
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: other way round?!?
13:22<flitz>you want to bring openttd into some linux distro ?
13:22<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: no
13:22<Ammler>/usr/local/games/openttd is default for local already
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>/local is for non-packaged stuff
13:23<Ammler>but it would be nice, if your local build could also search in the distro install
13:23<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: this is additional to the data dir
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>ah, now i see how you mean it. if /usr/share/openttd is already the data-dir, shared-dir may be /usr/local/share/openttd
13:25<Ammler>yep
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>and for non-packaged, it would be swapped
13:26<Ammler>well, the default openttd path is something debianish with games
13:27<Ammler>that is the reason, it is not enabled, as you would have 2 "default" shares already, for debian and the rest linux
13:28<frosch123>someone played too much civilisation... a townname grf featuring "babylon", "constantinople" (and "istanbul")
13:32<@planetmaker>:-D
13:34<flitz>can anyone play TOO MUCH civilization ? ;)
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13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i second that question :p
13:43<supermop_>third
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13:44<andythenorth_>efening
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22323 /trunk/src/lang/ (norwegian_bokmal.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt slovenian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by 2rB
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 41 changes by 2rB
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by ntadej
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>g-ening
13:46<Ruudjah>what happened with that opengl renderer?
13:46<flitz>kreetings
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13:47<Ruudjah>wasnt there a fairly good opengl renderer patch?
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: wasn't that horribly slow, because it was only optimised for multiple-of-8 sprite sizes?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>or power-of-two even
13:49<Ruudjah>iirc it beat the cpu renderer
13:49<@peter1138>"optimised"
13:49<Ruudjah>at least at low zoom levels
13:49<@peter1138>i think there's some non-standard extension, but in general, that's an opengl limit :S
13:50<@peter1138>and yeah, my one was fast at normal zoom
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13:50<@peter1138>hideously slow when zoomed out
13:51<@peter1138>otoh, i did it with one texture per sprite
13:51<@peter1138>which is simple, but inefficientr
13:52<@peter1138>but to build a sprite sheet is awkward in openttd's architecture
13:54<@peter1138>in fact openttd's current nice blitter system still relies on pointers to represent viewport location
13:54<@peter1138>which is a bit of a bugger for opengl
13:56*andythenorth_ ponders updating the pony farm
13:57<@planetmaker>:-D
13:58*peter1138 ponders updating the opengl patch
13:58<@peter1138>webgl openttd :D
13:58<@peter1138>openttd written in jquery
13:58<+glx>haha
13:59<SpComb>doesn't google have something for that
13:59<SpComb>sandboxed x86
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>err... wait... steam engines don't smoke under bridges?!
14:00<@peter1138>The driver turns off the smoke button.
14:01<@peter1138>(Similar to an undo knob)
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14:09<andythenorth_>pony farm updated ;) http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689&p=847034#p847034
14:10<andythenorth_>two of those ponies are blocking FIRS and it would be nice to let them run free :)
14:10<andythenorth_>one is just a niggle
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: you have some stale [i]
14:22<andythenorth_>pah
14:22<andythenorth_>silly me
14:23<andythenorth_>fixed
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>hm... bridges could use some random recolouring
14:27<supermop_>like industries?
14:27<supermop_>little bits of CC paint?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>bridges are often recoloured already, but it's static.
14:28<supermop_>getting painted?
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>it could use the same pseudo-random bits like trees
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>based on tile hash
14:28<supermop_>every few years
14:30<andythenorth_>add it to the pony list :P
14:30-!-tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-90-4.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: wtf are you talking about?
14:31<andythenorth_>he means the forth bridge scenario
14:32<andythenorth_>bridge graphics vary by time
14:32<andythenorth_>due to repainting
14:33<andythenorth_>speaking of repainting
14:33<supermop_>or golden gate, by the time the painters get to one side, they have to start over at the other
14:33*andythenorth_ wonders which FIRS industry to repaint next
14:33<andythenorth_>FIRS is like the golden gate
14:33<supermop_>haha
14:33<andythenorth_>I finish painting everything, I have to start repainting them :|
14:33<supermop_>people want open mines i guess? i am fine with shaft mines
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: ore mine
14:34<andythenorth_>screw open mines :)
14:34<andythenorth_>hmm
14:34<andythenorth_>ore mind does need painting
14:34<andythenorth_>I'm in a re-painting mood though
14:34<andythenorth_>I can do (a) snow (b) some prettier ground tiles for some industry (c) make something more TTD-like
14:34<andythenorth_>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=point_7_release
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: and because i have played TTO for "too long", i always mistake the bauxite mine for an ore mine...
14:34<andythenorth_>indeed
14:34<andythenorth_>that needs fixing
14:35<andythenorth_>I can repaint Grain Mill or Glassworks
14:35<supermop_>glass works
14:35<andythenorth_>or add some lawn to Dairy
14:35<supermop_>it looks just like some workshop, most others you can tell what they do by looking
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14:36<andythenorth_>I'm not sure what glass works should look like
14:36<andythenorth_>I could repaint 100% from scratch
14:36<andythenorth_>or reshade
14:36<andythenorth_>google images provides no inspiration
14:36<andythenorth_>ideas?
14:36<__ln__>20:16 < supermop_> i need to find a german tutor <-- isn't this channel full of such?
14:36<supermop_>heh
14:37<supermop_>i guess they would be pretty generic in real life
14:37<@planetmaker>there might be Germans... but tutor? Is quite a vague description ;-)
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14:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, my suggestion was to switch this channel to german for a week, then he'd get some use ;)
14:38<supermop_>maybe larger chunks on metal in the piles at the junk yard
14:38<supermop_>*of
14:38<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i fully support that idea
14:38<supermop_>are you Germans familiar with Dieter Rams?
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>never heard of that name
14:39<@planetmaker>who's that?
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14:39<andythenorth_>here's what current glassworks is based on: http://www3.familyoldphotos.com/files/images/2010/112210/OHsteubenville-glassworks-r.preview.jpg
14:40<supermop_>heh, i guess he is only legendary in ver specific circles
14:40<supermop_>very
14:40<andythenorth_>the clerestory roof is not very TTD style
14:40<supermop_>i need to work on my english typing as well
14:43<andythenorth_>maybe I can make the glassworks more TTD style in layout as well as shading
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>"Dieter Rams war Chefdesigner des Elektrogeräteherstellers Braun und gilt manchen als Großvater des Apple Designs"
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>that guy?
14:43<@planetmaker>aha
14:43<supermop_>that guy
14:43<supermop_>braun dude
14:44<supermop_>and Vitsoe
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>well... as long as google knows him...
14:44<__ln__>supermop_: bitte auf deutsch
14:44<@planetmaker>:-D
14:46<@planetmaker>http://www.roemer-aus-theresienthal.de/ansicht1850.jpg <-- andythenorth_
14:47<supermop_>Herr Rams war der Hauptdesigner von meine Firm?
14:48<@planetmaker>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Glasfabrik_Zwiesel.JPG
14:48<@planetmaker>Welche Produkte stellt Deine Firma her?
14:50<supermop_>Regeln
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>that reminds me: industries tend to have incredibly tall chimneys, in FIRS, they look rather short, or in case of the cement works, very wide
14:53<andythenorth_>I've tried making them taller...but it looks odd
14:53<andythenorth_>selective compression ;)
14:53<supermop_>i think they should be short, as TT is sort of cartoonish
14:53<andythenorth_>http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2387/2130839751_2330c1e0c9.jpg
14:54<supermop_>too tall heh
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: but the one in the brick works looks ok
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>the others look shorter
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>and the cement works one is definitely too wide
14:57<andythenorth_>raise a ticket :)
14:57<andythenorth_>cement works needs repainting anyway
14:57<andythenorth_>it would be nice to have extended tiles action 2s before I do that
14:57<andythenorth_>otherwise moving the smoke is world of pain :|
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14:58<Eddi|zuHause>do the mines first ;)
15:02<andythenorth_> I'm not in the mood for new sprites right now :)
15:02<andythenorth_>I need to shake off the 'FIRS looks like OpenGFX' comments, they bother me :P
15:02<andythenorth_>(nothing wrong with OpenGFX, but it's not the intended style for FIRS)
15:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22324 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix: Vehicles skipped orders when inserting automatic orders failed.
15:04<__ln__>supermop_: aus welcher bundesstaat sind sie?
15:05<supermop_>New Yor
15:05<supermop_>k
15:05<__ln__>ach so
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15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22325 /trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt: -Fix: Slovenian iso code was wrong
15:07<@planetmaker>__ln__: aus welchem...
15:08<__ln__>i was about to add a disclaimer that one shouldn't embrace grammar from my sentences....
15:09<__ln__>aber danke
15:12<supermop_>brb lunch
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15:16<frosch123>[21:05] <__ln__> ach so <- in that context it sounds like "that explains a lot" :p
15:17<__ln__>:/
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>man, electrification is expensive
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16:30<supermop>hi
16:33<__ln__>hallo
16:34<@planetmaker>willkommen zurück
16:38<supermop>wie gehts
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16:45<__ln__>ganz normal
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16:46<supermop>was sagt man 'wie gehts' mit ein 'Sie' Person
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>no german would ever say that :p
16:46<supermop>hehe
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>"wie geht es Ihnen"
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>but be cautious: a german might tell you how he's _actually_ feeling
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16:49<andythenorth>snow graphics in default ttd are inconsistent
16:49<supermop>hah
16:49<supermop>apparently i need to buy a legit bonsai tree for this dude
16:50<supermop>Bonsaibaum
16:50<supermop>?
16:51<@planetmaker>yep
16:51<@planetmaker>or just "Bonsai"
16:51<supermop>and a real kaya goban
16:52<__ln__>"how are you doing?" ist eine univeraler gruß auf amerikanisch, aber "wie geht's?" ist nicht ganz dasselbe ding, oder?
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: the meaning is mostly the same, but it's used less commonly, i believe
16:54<@planetmaker>__ln__: I always feel a bit awkward when being asked by somewhat strangers "Wie geht's?"
16:55<@planetmaker>as it's basically pointless chit-chatter. No one who asks that expects an answer so either you're fine or you lie.
16:55<andythenorth>conversational gambit
16:55<__ln__>when i visited the US last summer, at first i was kind of confused about the "how are you doing?" greeting, i wondered if they actually want to know how i'm doing or should i always answer "great".
16:56<@planetmaker>^^
16:56<andythenorth>always answer 'awesome'
16:56<andythenorth>when in the US
16:57<supermop>ha
16:57<andythenorth>sleeps time
16:57<andythenorth>good night
16:57<supermop>nah, always say eh, ok
16:57<andythenorth>that's in canada
16:57<__ln__>"i'm operating within normal parameters"
16:57<andythenorth>bye
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16:57<supermop>eh to rhyme with meh, not with 'a'
16:59<Wolf01>'night
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>answer "Naja, ich hab so Probleme mit der Hüfte und dann der lange Flug, da bin ich jetzt total geschafft [...]"
17:00<supermop>heh
17:00<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: yes, sometimes I'm tempted. Or telling a story about my grandmothers or so
17:01<supermop>you guys think a german would care if i got a kaya goban, or just shin kaya
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i have no idea what either of those are
17:01<@planetmaker>supermop: would an American care?
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17:01<supermop>depends
17:01<@planetmaker>would a Japanese care? Or does it depend on the individual person?
17:02<@planetmaker>Ha!
17:02<supermop>my boss said we need to have to some Japanese stuff around that would be appropriate to his aesthetic
17:02<supermop>he raises his own Bonsai, so I know he would care about that
17:02<supermop>the goban i dont know
17:03<supermop>i dont know if i should get wabi-sabi stuff in general, like a random piece of driftwood or pottery, or if it has to be very design-y
17:04<@planetmaker>Hm... if I go someplace, I don't expect the people to know about my hobbies and to actually fan me about them...
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: so if he already has a bonsai, why give him another one?
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>give him something that he _doesn't_ already have
17:07<__ln__>a chainsaw
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>if i go to new york, i'd expect to get new-york-y presents. and i give them Hallorenkugeln and Rotkäppchen Sekt.
17:07<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: indeed. I'd rather expect something original American. Maybe give him a leatherman. Or alike ;-)
17:07<supermop>its not a present
17:07<@planetmaker>then it's worse IMHO ;-)
17:07<supermop>its to make the shop look dieter-y
17:08<supermop>not my idea
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i think it's the totally wrong approach.
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not sure why, but i have this image of Al Bundy in front of me, preparing the shop when his boss "Gary" visits.
17:09<supermop>haha
17:10<supermop>I am disappointed that Germans know who Al Bundy is
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>and then "Gary" turns out to be something very different from what he expected
17:10<supermop>does not reflect well on us
17:11<@planetmaker>You may be surprised how many US TV shows are known ;-)
17:11<supermop>not surprised at all
17:11<supermop>disapointed all the same
17:12<@planetmaker>why?
17:12<@planetmaker>why is it disappointing that it's known outside the US?
17:13<supermop>Because many of our shows are very bad/crude/etc
17:13<supermop>Americanization, in a bad way
17:14<supermop>and the syndication revenue promotes studios to keep making bland or uninspired work to sell
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: and the british should be disappointed because we know Mr. Bean?
17:15<supermop>hahaha
17:15<supermop>maybe,
17:16<supermop>I just feel like that for every German watching married with children, thats someone who isn't seeing something better from America or another country
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not getting your point. yes, your "TV/movie industry" is 100% profit driven, but that doesn't mean all shows are bad. and the worst ones are filtered out before they get on german television
17:16<supermop>a lot of good, clever shows, like Arrested Development fall through the cracks
17:17<supermop>and then maybe all europeans think most americans are like al bundy or something
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>err...
17:17<supermop>that said
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's a weird chain of thought
17:17<supermop>we dont get much non-british european TV here
17:18<supermop>i dont know
17:18<supermop>i just feel a bit embarassed sometmes
17:18<__ln__>don't worry, homer simpson is your ambassador to the world
17:20<supermop>thats kind of the problem, the Simpsons started out very clever, but after 20+ years, I feel like it isn't really contributing anymore
17:20<@planetmaker>it's said that they depict the US quite well in a satirical way :-)
17:20<@planetmaker>I have the feeling it might be right
17:20<supermop>heh
17:20-!-zachanima [~zach@2506ds3-od.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:20<supermop>but, the US is not so monolithic
17:21<supermop>it is a huge area with many distinct regional cultures
17:21<@planetmaker>that's the artistic license. And not one of the messages I ever saw there
17:21<supermop>its kind of sad that it all get bundled up, not just for Europeans, but also for americans
17:22<supermop>so much of the local vareity is being destroyed
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>that's called "globalisation"
17:23<supermop>yeah
17:23<supermop>still can be nostalgic about it
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17:25<supermop>sigh
17:25<supermop>anyway
17:25<supermop>i just don't want to be Al Bundy
17:27<supermop>I should just brush up on architeture vocabulary and talk to this guy about the Metabolists
17:27<__ln__>does someone remember if ESTA needs to be valid on the day of entering the country, or during the whole stay?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>what's ESTA?
17:30<FauxFaux>The US "we want your soul" form.
17:32<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: the electronic form one needs to fill in at least 72 hours in advance before entering the US, and it is accepted or not accepted.
17:33<__ln__>the one where they ask if you've participated in a genocide, etc.
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>i thought european countries are excluded from this stuff
17:33<__ln__>nope.
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>man... this has changed... last time i visited the US you just had to fill out a form in the plane
17:33<__ln__>it's the "visa-waiver" program; when you fill ESTA, you don't need a real visa.
17:34<supermop>i thought you can still do that
17:34<supermop>an EU citizen shouldnt need a visa for a short trip anyway
17:34<__ln__>as far as i know ESTA is mandatory nowadays.
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... don't take my advice for that stuff :p
17:35<@planetmaker>but there's an "entry fee".
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, "it's like disney land" :p
17:37<__ln__>i filled in my ESTA when it was free.
17:37<__ln__>"Wenn Ihnen eine elektronische Reisegenehmigung erteilt wird, gilt dies als Nachweis, dass Sie im Rahmen des Programms für visumfreies Reisen (Visa Waiver Program) zur Reise in die Vereinigten Staaten berechtigt sind, aber es lässt sich daraus nicht ableiten, dass Ihnen die Einreise in die Vereinigten Staaten bewilligt wird. Bei Ankunft in den Vereinigten Staaten werden Sie an einer Einreisestelle von einem Beamten der Zoll- und Grenzschutzbehörde (Customs
17:41<__ln__>"C) Waren Sie jemals oder sind Sie gegenwärtig an Spionage- oder Sabotageakten, an terroristischen Aktivitäten oder an Völkermord beteiligt, oder waren Sie zwischen 1933 und 1945 in irgendeiner Weise an Verfolgungsmaßnahmen in Zusammenhang mit dem Naziregime oder dessen Verbündeten beteiligt? [ ] Ja [ ] Nein"
17:41<supermop>how many people that old are there still around anyway?
17:43<supermop>gah this stuff is so expensive
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>lots of people age 16-30 in 1945 are still alive
17:44<supermop>the 30 year olds would be getting close to 100
17:45<supermop>not sure if i would travel internationally at that age
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: so?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>my grandfather turns 91 next month
17:46<supermop>and my grandfather passed away at 94 last month,
17:46<supermop>he was in ok shape, but not flying anywhere
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>he was in stalingrad, but got out due to an injury. towards the end of the war he got into a prisoner of war camp in texas
17:47<supermop>I mean it seems like that clause in the form would be of extremely limited use
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>he was in a horse-artillery unit
17:47<@Terkhen>good night
17:47<supermop>he fought in the philipines though, and a couple of years ago told me he wanted to go to Japan to visit
17:48<supermop>horse artillery?
17:48<__ln__>cannons pulled with horse power
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>a cannon dragged by a horse
17:48<supermop>didnt know those were used in Russian theather
17:48<__ln__>as opposed to trucks, like in modern-day artillery
17:49<supermop>thought they used like half-tracks to pull that stuff
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>fuel was sparse... why wouldn't you use a horse?
17:49<supermop>expensive to feed it
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>but horse food is easier to come by than oil
17:50<__ln__>and a horse without proper maintenance is probably more reliable than a truck without proper maintenance
17:51<supermop>hmm i need some decent go stones for myself
17:56<__ln__>"B) ..... oder haben Sie jemals Drogen in Umlauf gebracht, oder beabsichtigen Sie, zum Zweck krimineller oder sittenwidriger Handlungen einzureisen? [ ] Ja [ ] Nein"
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>they don't even specify which drugs...
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>is alcohol a drug?
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>is chocolate a drug?
17:59<+glx>is chocolate with alcohol inside... ?
18:02<supermop>what if it is prescribed?
18:03<@planetmaker>good night
18:03<supermop>thanks planetmaker!
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>what if it's a legal drug in your country, but illegal in the USA?
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>what if it's the other way around?
18:06<__ln__>good question... however, i assume if you answer "Ja" to any of those questions, the esta will be rejected.
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19:28<Eddi|zuHause>"no catch. 5 min to historic pripyat" :p
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22:26<SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: what?
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: xkcd
22:27<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=941956#p941956 <- can anyone make sense of what he's talking about?
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22:55-!-Cozzie [~Cozzie@220-244-173-65.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:15<ccfreak2k>What specifically is not understood?
---Logclosed Sat Apr 16 00:00:36 2011