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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-19

---Logopened Tue Apr 19 00:00:30 2011
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00:48<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:51<LordAro>moin all
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03:17-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association #wwottdgd #openttd @#openttdcoop
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04:29<andythenorth>do I need to handle regearing cargo explicitly in FIRS?
04:30<andythenorth>it's over-writing my cargo in slot 1E currently
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05:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you do need to handle it, yes
05:07<@planetmaker>as in: don't use that slot, if the regearing cargo is or will be defined by NARS
05:08<@planetmaker>moin alos :-)
05:20<andythenorth>I guess I have to figure that out
05:20<andythenorth>I only need to provide GEAR if NARS 2 is present
05:20<andythenorth>otherwise it should be undefined
05:20<andythenorth>for a vehicle grf I'd just use a CTT, but that's not the method here...
05:24<@planetmaker>I guess I never defined a cargo, such I'm not of much help currently
05:26<andythenorth>probably just define it, with action 6 / 7 / 9 or something
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05:43<ZirconiumX>hello all
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06:00<andythenorth>pikka: hi
06:01<andythenorth>not sure how to handle regearing in FIRS
06:01<andythenorth>currently GEAR is occupying 1E
06:01<andythenorth>I could do with it in 1F
06:01<andythenorth>I should define it explicitly in FIRS?
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06:41<@Yexo>andythenorth: that will only work if FIRS is loaded _after_ NARS
06:42<@Yexo>otherwise nars will overwrite the cargo definition in 1E
06:43<andythenorth>...because NARS defines that cargo itself?
06:43<andythenorth>whereas most vehicle sets don't define cargos...
06:43<@Yexo><andythenorth> ...because NARS defines that cargo itself? <- I didn't check that, but I always assumed so
06:43<andythenorth>I can move my cargo to 1F and work on the basis that 1E has to be left free
06:43<andythenorth>is one solution
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06:44<@Yexo>or you and pikka could both start using GRM and let that pick the correct slot
06:44<andythenorth>that doesn't cater for old versions of NARS 2 I guess
06:44<Ammler>would not matter, if pikka fixes his nars too
06:45*andythenorth would happily let 'someone else' make that decision
06:45<andythenorth>@seen someoneelse
06:45<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: I have not seen someoneelse.
06:45<Ammler>making decisions is easy
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09:32<norbert79>Good afternoon
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10:07<Eddi|zuHause> <-- weird. an "electrified" turntable...
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10:47<supermop>good morning
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11:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22348 /trunk/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: split ship-specific part of yapf_node.hpp to yapf_node_ship.hpp
11:01<__ln__>eeeenglish onlyyy
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11:04<yorick_>__ln__ hasn't changed a bit, hasn't he
11:10-!-yorick_ is now known as yorick
11:14<__ln__>if i did, how would you know it's really me
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>how do we know now that you are really you?
11:16<andythenorth>it's the same broom
11:16<andythenorth>but the handle has been changed seven times
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>after all, you are obviously not ln-
11:16<andythenorth>and the bristles have been changed three times
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11:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think MB is going to flip over your cargo schemes in the near future :p
11:17<andythenorth>is this all in some german forum somewhere?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>of course :p
11:18<andythenorth>I've been talking to him on forum pm, he was making quite reasonable suggestions to me
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11:20<Eddi|zuHause>his latest rant here is about the "recycables" cargo being essentially a duplicate of "garbage" with new label, the cargo class of scrap metal (his opinion: shreddered metal is "bulk"), and the reintroduction of "BEER"
11:23<andythenorth>I told him that BEER was by popular demand :)
11:24<andythenorth>he thought maybe it should be Food (Beer)
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>but your "Alcohol" has TE_GOODS, right?
11:26<andythenorth>dunno :)
11:27<andythenorth>recyclables is garbage with new label
11:27<andythenorth>but labels are quite cheap
11:28*andythenorth is a big fan of cargo label scheme
11:28*andythenorth is less a fan of one person controlling it
11:28*andythenorth likes the idea of a cb for cargos to determine refit...
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>the cargo classes were supposed to do that...
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: MB had "BEER" in his first newindustries grf, but he and george decided to drop the cargo in favour of "Food (Beer)" subcargo for ECS
11:32<andythenorth>subcargos are all wrong
11:35<andythenorth>subcargos are a huge mistake
11:35<supermop>what are subcargos
11:35<andythenorth>they look like a clever hack for 'reality'
11:35<supermop>never played ecs
11:35<andythenorth>but they impair gameplay immensely
11:35<andythenorth>Food (beer) is a subcargo
11:35<andythenorth>Goods (cars) is a subcargo
11:36<andythenorth>Metal (steel) is a subcargo
11:36<andythenorth>it looks like a clever way to pack a lot more cargos into a 32 cargo limit
11:36<andythenorth>but is stupid :)
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>Passengers (Workers)
11:38<Mazur>Hm, I've found a bug, and it's visible in PS: a combi signal before two exit signals takes a few seconds to clear, when one of the exits clears.
11:38<Mazur>Just FYI.
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: savegame or it didn't happen!
11:43<Mazur>Oh, it happened, 11 seconds.
11:43<Mazur>In half an hour, or something.
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12:01<@Belugas>mmh... smells like food
12:01<@Belugas>it's lunch time!!!
12:06<Mazur>Ah, found an answer: the exit line of the station was lacking signals, say for 64 tiles.
12:07<Mazur>I'm guessing it takes time to check all those tiles, along with all other stuff going on.
12:09<Mazur>No, it's the just time it takes for the train to free/leave the exit line.
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's about what i was expecting...
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12:20*Mazur too.
12:20<Mazur>But I did not see it sooner.
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13:11<@Belugas>freaking network
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13:42<Eddi|zuHause>neaking fretwork...
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22349 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt russian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovenian - 32 changes by
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
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14:00<andyalba>guys, i have a simple x cross over track, how do i stop trains from moving past the first is there isnt a clear track ahead?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>andyalba: use path signals instead
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>andyalba: like this:
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14:04<andyalba>mmm, sorry i dont think i explained it very well, just to make sure.... i have two tracks running next to each other that then hit a signal and then the two tracks merge with two signals after the merge
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>andyalba: same concept.
14:05<andyalba>ah cool, ill need to test it out
14:07<andyalba>actually on a quick side note, is there a main log where I can see the latest events instead of the popups down the bottom?
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, click and hold the newspaper icon at the top
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14:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22350 /trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/ (yapf_node_rail.hpp yapf_node_road.hpp yapf_node_ship.hpp): -Change: make YAPF hash tables much smaller, it should improve performance significantly (about 15%)
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14:18<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that doesn't look particularly safe...
14:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22351 /trunk/src/misc/hashtable.hpp: -Revert (r17101): and reinstall r16546. Hash tables are much smaller now, so it shouldn't cause crash anymore
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 17101
14:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by smatz :: r17101 trunk/src/misc/hashtable.hpp (2009-08-07 13:33:55 UTC)
14:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Revert [FS#3065](r16546): large table on stack caused stack overflow on some architectures
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>@commit 16546
14:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Commit by smatz :: r16546 trunk/src/misc/hashtable.hpp (2009-06-09 23:22:37 UTC)
14:21<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: use array member instead of allocating in costructor and freeing in desctructor
14:22<andyalba>thanks Eddi
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14:28<Hirundo>15% performance improvement in YAPF or 15% in total?
14:28<@SmatZ>15% in total
14:28<@SmatZ>of some games I tested :P
14:29<@Terkhen>anything that makes ships a bit faster is very welcome :)
14:30<@Alberth>aka an algorithm that can handle large seas of equal values :)
14:30<yorick>someone made a region based yapf once
14:31<@Terkhen>sometimes (when I was bored at class mostly) I thought about a better algorithm for ships and failed
14:31<andythenorth>marked routes...
14:31<@Terkhen>that can't handle changes in the map
14:31<andythenorth>negating some of the benefits
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>the only sensible solution i can make up is pre-calculating the routes between buoys
14:32<andythenorth>can we build a graph?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>possibly invalidating them on landscape actions
14:32<yorick>hierarchical pathfinding anyone?
14:32<andythenorth>ship pathfinding is just-in-time?
14:32<andythenorth>i.e. it only looks ahead one tile?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>a found path must be recalculated at any crossing. and for ships, each tile is a crossing
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14:34<@peter1138>you could cache the path, but...
14:34<@peter1138>we don't
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>well, the cache would also have to be invalidated on any landscaping actions
14:36<@Terkhen>hmm... probably checking to see if the path has changed is quite faster than recalculating it everytime
14:36<@Terkhen>so I think that is a good idea
14:36<@Alberth>it would be bad if that was not the case :)
14:37<@peter1138>not any
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: landscaping can both destroy an existing path, as well as create new opportunities
14:38<@peter1138>you only need to recalculate the path would take you off water...
14:38<@peter1138>(i'm ignoring network game stuff here :p)
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14:41<Eddi|zuHause>in the ideal case, the pathfinder would intelligently switch between a "river mode" (more like YAPF) and a "sea mode" (more like OPF)
14:41<@peter1138>does a canal count as lots of junctions?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling that OPF is very stupid wrt diagonal ship routes...
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>at least my ships didn't go anything remotely resembling a straight line...
14:42<andythenorth>mine sometimes go parallel to grid instead of diagonal
14:43<andythenorth>probably accidental though?
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14:44<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i was under the impression, the track bits were dynamically calculated by the adjacent water tiles, so a simple canal should be treated as straight track. i have no clue about the internals though
14:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22352 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt table/settings.ini): -Change: make YAPF the default pathfinder for ships, don't discourage players from using it
14:50<andythenorth>did something change in YAPF?
14:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: smatz * r22353 /trunk/src/lang/ (52 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup (r22352): remove unused strings from all language files
14:50<@SmatZ>it should be faster now
14:50<andythenorth>I'll try it in my game
14:50<andythenorth>80% water
14:50<@SmatZ>good :)
14:51<@SmatZ>a lot of ships?
14:51<__ln__>80% water, 20% alcohol?
14:51<andythenorth>;) I'm making a ship set yes / no?
14:51<andythenorth>last time I tried YAPF for ships was about 3 years ago
14:51<andythenorth>it DOSed my game
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>it nags you about putting buoys now, so it shouldn't be as bad as back then anyway
14:52<andythenorth>I had maybe 300 ships, travelling maybe 100 tile routes, no bouys
14:53<andythenorth>I need ground tile suggestions for a farm station
14:54<andythenorth>currently I have 'mud'
14:54<andythenorth>which is ok
14:54<andythenorth>but is there something better?
14:55<@Alberth>a farmer would just throw old bricks/stones next to the rail tracks
14:55<@Alberth>or concrete plates perhaps
14:56<@Alberth>gates to 'store' the cattle
14:59<andythenorth>I wanted to just use the current ground tile
14:59<andythenorth>but there's no easy way to do that
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>there's especially no "mud with snow" graphics
15:02<andythenorth>that is a fair point ;)
15:02<andythenorth>you can sweep mud? :P
15:02<andythenorth>to clear snow?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>the mud will likely freeze, but it won't have a clean surface...
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16:18<@SmatZ>I just heard few secons from a song by Justin Bieber
16:18<@SmatZ>hope he gets into puberty soon
16:18<@SmatZ>so he loses his youngish voice :x
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>strangely, i have never heard a song from him in any radio station
16:22<@Belugas>i've NEVER heard that guy
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>yet there's such a big fuss about him
16:22<@Belugas>not that i feel a need...
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get it.
16:22<@Belugas>he's young. he has a cute face.
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i don't hear his face in the radio either...
16:23<@Belugas>look like the New Kids On The Block...
16:23<@Belugas>ho.. well.. it's fame...
16:23<@Belugas>picture is now more important than the sound
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>every decade has his own "cute young boy"-star
16:23<@SmatZ>I noticed a lot of fuss about him... so I was wondering
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i noticed a lot of fuss, so i stayed away...
16:23<@SmatZ>but I don't know anyone who knows his songs
16:24<@Belugas>David Bowie had a lot more fuss
16:24<@SmatZ>maybe because I don't know any 11-years old girl...
16:24<@Belugas>hoho... as did Jimmy hendrix, but it was not the same fuzz :D
16:26<andythenorth>FIRS + NARS 2 is kicking my ass :(
16:26<andythenorth>where's my easy money maker?
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16:27-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association #wwottdgd #openttd @#openttdcoop
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16:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a plane 2048 tiles diagonal
16:30<andythenorth>in 1893 :P
16:30<andythenorth>on a 256 x 256 map :D
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>a zeppelin ;)
16:31<andythenorth>I could...cheat
16:33<andythenorth>who extended which windows I can clone vehicles from ?
16:33<andythenorth>they deserve a prize
16:34*SmatZ raises hand
16:35<andythenorth>prize on way
16:35<andythenorth>it's invisible
16:35<andythenorth>let me know when you find it ;)
16:35*SmatZ found a beer
16:35<andythenorth>you win
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16:36<andythenorth>are you sure it's not Food (Beer)
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16:39<andythenorth>it's annoying when town growth causes population to fall :\
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16:41<@SmatZ>Deutsche Demokratische Republik ?
16:48*andythenorth votes for nap time
16:48<andythenorth>good night
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17:50<@Terkhen>good night
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18:14<Eddi|zuHause> <-- ah... i searched for an image like this years ago...
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18:15<Eddi|zuHause> <-- a little more panorama
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>construction started 1938, finished: 1993
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>between 1940 and 1991 construction stopped for over 50 years
18:20<Eddi|zuHause> <-- what the bridge looks like today
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18:22<__ln__>germans like long, tall bridges
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>during initial pre-war autobahn planning, long bridges were actually quite rare
18:25<supermop>why masonry instead of poured concrete?
18:25<supermop>even in 38 that sems like an odd choice for something that tall
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18:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's not masonry, it's granite (with a concrete core)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>(or am i understanding "masonry" wrong?)
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>oh: and after the construction restarted in 1991, the bows weren't actually used to support the roads, instead, the pillars were extended with concrete, the bows are only optical in that sense
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>the wiki page also says building a new bridge would (probably) have been cheaper
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18:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's a crazy bridge:
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>the autobahn was to be extended to 3 lanes per direction, but that wouldn't fit through the bows. so they removed the lower parts
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 20 00:00:48 2011