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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-20

---Logopened Wed Apr 20 00:00:48 2011
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02:47<@Terkhen>good morning
02:48<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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03:09<LordAro>moin all
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06:41<@SmatZ>You won 990,784.00 GBP from LUKOIL COMPANY AWARD. Contact Mr Benson Parker for payment details.
06:42<andythenorth>now you can fund Openttd
06:42<andythenorth>what shall we spend the money on?
06:42<andythenorth>(a) a new logo
06:42<@SmatZ>real-world openttd! :)
06:42<andythenorth>(b) bigger servers
06:42<andythenorth>(c) underground railways
06:43<@SmatZ>underground railways are doable, but it would change openttd a lot
06:43<@Terkhen>servers for 255 companies and 65535 players
06:43<@SmatZ>eg. you would need user interface to build them
06:43<@SmatZ>also, later you would want to add sloped underground track...
06:43<dihedral>decentralized multiplayer
06:43<andythenorth>an interface to build things you can't see :P
06:43*dihedral pokes SmatZ :-D
06:44<@SmatZ>hmm yeah :)
06:44<@SmatZ>I remember when I was trying to build something like that in locomotion, the game never did what I wanted
06:44<@SmatZ>or when I rotated the view, the track was built somewhere else than it looked like when I was building it...
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06:51<andythenorth>underground is stupid
06:51<andythenorth>might as well just use tunnels for it
06:51<andythenorth>build nodes on the surface, built tunnels to them
06:52<andythenorth>nothing else can be on the node tile
06:52<andythenorth>use the map bits for signalling and crap
06:53<andythenorth>node tile can look like a vent shaft or something
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07:13<Eddi|zuHause>,11.927826&spn=0.002311,0.005257&t=h&z=18 <-- so, who codes this as a newgrf-tram/bus-station? ;)
07:16<@peter1138>it's unrealistic!
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07:17<@peter1138>looks like an old industrial station converted to an out-of-town one
07:18<@peter1138>s/one/passenger station/
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08:08<Eddi|zuHause>nope, never was industrial. first it was a single turning loop for the tram line from the right, and later they added a tram line from below, so they made it a double-loop
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>i guess original plans to extend the line towards the top were scrapped in favour of the bus lines
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09:01<@Belugas>freezing rain pouring down over me
09:05<Markk>I would like that right now.
09:05<@planetmaker>hm... around 20°C here right now. T-Shirt weather actually
09:05<@Belugas>come, as you are
09:06<@Belugas>as you were
09:06<@planetmaker>and not a single cloud :-)
09:06<@Belugas>as i want you to be
09:06<Markk>Belugas: Nirvana :D
09:06<@Belugas>one of the easiest songs to play EVER, but so cool to play!!
09:10<Markk>19 degrees here.
09:11<Markk>Sunny and high humidity too, so it feels like 22-23.
09:13*Belugas longs for some heat
09:13<@Belugas>2 celcius :(
09:14<@Belugas>and rain mixed with freezing rain
09:14*Belugas cries for a bit of sun!
09:14<Markk>Where are thou?
09:16<@Belugas>in the cold, damned
09:16<@Belugas>Montreal, Quebec, north Pole
09:17<Markk>But isn't Montreal pretty far south for being Canada?
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09:19<@Belugas>quite. we're just like 45 minutes frm the states. We're lucky, in fact, there are people in the priovince that are receiving snow right now
09:19<@Belugas>and a pile of it!
09:19<@peter1138>i have sun
09:19<@peter1138>it's too hot, yes
09:19<@peter1138>24°C in this office
09:20<Markk>Belugas: wtf.
09:20<Markk>I live in Ireland, the most rainy sheitisland, and it's nearly summer here.
09:21<@Belugas>say Yeah for Gulf Stream ;)
09:21<Markk>Yep :D
09:21<@Belugas>that's what is eating up the continent
09:22<@Belugas>it totally misses us. Instead, we have that stream coming down the arctic circle
09:22<@Belugas>thus the difference
09:22<Markk>That sucks.
09:22<Markk>How is Vancouver by this time of the year?
09:22<@Belugas>nope, that freezes ;)
09:23<@Belugas>I can't tell. I was doing an install by remote yesterday, the guy was so boring we did not talk about the weater
09:26<@Belugas>and I know that Calgary was a bit frisky as well yesterday :)
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09:28<@Belugas>-3 actually
09:28<@Belugas>so... looks like i should not complain too much :D
09:30<Markk>It's spring!
09:30<Markk>Not winter
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09:46<ZirconiumX>Hello all
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09:51<andythenorth>playing a game causes me to invent lots of tickets
09:51<andythenorth>mostly for me :P
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09:52<ZirconiumX>least they aren't bus tickets
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10:00<andythenorth>ZirconiumX: your feedback on FIRS graphics was useful - it inspired me to improve them more...
10:01<andythenorth>does this one blend in in your view?
10:01*ZirconiumX gives thumbs up
10:02<ZirconiumX>it's not perfect - but as nothing can be - it's one of the best I've seen
10:02*ZirconiumX thinks andythenorth should do a station set
10:02<@Terkhen>it loos quite nice :)
10:03<andythenorth>ZirconiumX: it won't be perfect :) while (a) I insist on using my own ground tile (b) I don't add fences (c) I make industries same size as town buildings, instead of compressed in size
10:03<andythenorth>and I'm not simon foster :)
10:04<ZirconiumX>I've seen thenew fishing harbour
10:04<ZirconiumX>very good IMO
10:08<Ammler>[16:03] <andythenorth> and I'm not simon foster <-- you are better
10:08<andythenorth>not really
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10:09<Ammler>but you might have used more time per sprite as he
10:09<andythenorth>I have more time than he probably had
10:09<andythenorth>I have been working on it for two years
10:09<andythenorth>I don't know how long TTD production took
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10:19<@Belugas>nice looking, andythenorth
10:21<andythenorth>ta much
10:21*andythenorth back to work
10:24<ZirconiumX>or play
10:30<ZirconiumX>andythenorth: there appears to be a 'bulge' in the dairy exhaust pipe
10:30<ZirconiumX>The dairy is a good sprite but the bulge looks 'wrong'
10:30<andythenorth>there is a bulge - it's a collar on the chimney
10:31<ZirconiumX>ah - sorry
10:31<andythenorth>you may have a point
10:31<ZirconiumX>could you either recolour it - or remove it
10:32<andythenorth>I don't enjoy criticism, but if it makes for better art...
10:32<ZirconiumX>recolour would be better IMO
10:32<ZirconiumX>but - it's your work
10:32<andythenorth>the bulge is realistic, but maybe doesn't look right. There are other cases of it
10:32<andythenorth>I'll try later
10:33<ZirconiumX>and - is there a snowy harbour
10:33<ZirconiumX>or slightly salty?
10:34<andythenorth>ask yourself - how low does the snow line go?
10:34<ZirconiumX>7 bottom
10:34<andythenorth>min height is level 2 for snow
10:35<andythenorth>although you can build fishing harbours in lakes above sea level
10:35<andythenorth>but not likely when using terrain generator
10:35<andythenorth>I would like a snowy version
10:35<ZirconiumX>but maybe the salt deposited on the shipway
10:35<andythenorth>it would look...neat
10:35<@planetmaker>well. You *can* set it lower via NewGRF. But you'd have to supply snowy shores as well
10:35<andythenorth>that might be a worthwhile project...
10:35<andythenorth>'total snow'
10:35<andythenorth>would look awesome
10:36<ZirconiumX>and icy water
10:36<dihedral>mini has been ordered :-)
10:36<ZirconiumX>just oe problem
10:36<@planetmaker>I *think* you can then not have a variable snow line
10:36<@planetmaker>hm... icy river sprites...
10:37<ZirconiumX>the small wooden ships of FISH going through thick ice
10:37<ZirconiumX>is IMO unrealistic
10:37<@planetmaker>if height - snowline > 3 then use_frozen_water_sprites
10:37<andythenorth>i would happily draw ice breakers
10:37<andythenorth>my ships are all ice capable :)
10:37<andythenorth>that's why they're so expensive :P
10:37<@planetmaker>Actually I think costs should match the costs of standard vehicles.
10:38<andythenorth>I think there should be a cost-parameter ;)
10:38<@planetmaker>If people want other costs, they can use base cost mods for that, or parameters :-P
10:38<andythenorth>and for some reason my ship costs are currently all wrong
10:38<ZirconiumX>cost multiplier param?
10:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, but one parameter must always be "matches default"
10:38<andythenorth>I recently reset them right, now they are wrong again in my game
10:38*andythenorth must have changed a difficulty setting somewhere
10:38<@planetmaker>and IMHO "best" is to match default by default :-P
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10:39<@planetmaker>of course they vary by the difficulty setting, sure
10:39<ZirconiumX>and what about salty deposits on the harbour?
10:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth, because, if every newgrf has its own defaults, that may be reasonable from one newgrf's perspective. But not from a player who wants to use several newgrfs of the same type
10:39<ZirconiumX>from the seawater
10:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: known issue yes /no ?
10:39<andythenorth>cost parameter...
10:40<@planetmaker>uhm, what about it?
10:40<@planetmaker>doesn't fish have one?
10:40<andythenorth>Not yet
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10:40<@planetmaker>it should get one
10:40<andythenorth>I have minimal objection to making the default match default vehicles
10:40<andythenorth>planetmaker: there's a ticket for it :P
10:40<andythenorth>you went hiking
10:40<andythenorth>seemed odd, but you must have your fun I suppose :P
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10:41*ZirconiumX goes off to do some demonstartion
10:41<@planetmaker>must be a pretty old ticket, I recon
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10:44<@planetmaker>what's your reservation against matching default vehicles?
10:45<andythenorth>not a lot
10:45<andythenorth>it's just a change of attitude
10:45<andythenorth>I can live with it
10:45<andythenorth>people like pikka and mb and zephyris have made grfs that adjust the gameplay according to their vision
10:45<andythenorth>especially wrt costs etc
10:45<@planetmaker>Well, previously I also rather matched Pikka's costs / run costs (which is 0 / +2) - but overall, that's probably not the best approach
10:45<andythenorth>matching default costs for ships and rvs is not optimal
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10:46<andythenorth>ships and rvs are crippled in the original game
10:46<andythenorth>which is fine, because it's a train game :P
10:46<@planetmaker>are they?
10:46<andythenorth>I find them very hard to make money with
10:46<andythenorth>it's an assertion, unevidenced
10:46<@planetmaker>the AIs contradict at least the RV theory
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10:47<@planetmaker>some of the most successful ones only use RVs
10:47<andythenorth>although my response has been to make FISH much more expensive than defaults, so my argument may have gaping holes int
10:47<@planetmaker>and ships usually make a good profit when I use them
10:47<andythenorth>well I may be plain wrong
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10:47<andythenorth>it happens
10:47<@planetmaker>of course it does happen :-)
10:47<andythenorth>and yes, matching defaults is not a bad idea
10:47<andythenorth>it has the benefit of being simple and consisteny
10:47<andythenorth>t /s
10:47<@planetmaker>But default ships with default industries... usually are in for good money. Like oil from rig to refinery
10:48*ZirconiumX has probably ruined a sprite - in order to show something
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10:48<@planetmaker>andythenorth, sure enought the grf should always have the option to adjust also itself to match other than default levels, no doubt. I won't and don't want to argue there about that need
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10:49<@planetmaker>especially as there are so many different cost levels already :S
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10:49<andythenorth>I think we know the winning answer ;)
10:49<@planetmaker>which all claim to be "I solve the economy thing"
10:49<@planetmaker>yup :-P
10:49<andythenorth>I am currently using 1/4 costs for HEQS in my game :P
10:49<andythenorth>and I made the damn thing
10:50<@planetmaker>Maybe I should start again trying to convince DJN that default costs should not be insane ;-)
10:50<@planetmaker>he has like +3/+2 or so
10:50<@planetmaker>it's only usable with giant maps
10:50<@planetmaker>the larger the map -> the larger the costs and run costs may be
10:51<andythenorth>I liked your idea of trying to balance against sets automatically
10:51<andythenorth>but it would be troubling to implement
10:51<andythenorth>a better way might be for suggested values
10:51<@planetmaker>yes, I haven't forgotten it. And to some degree... it is feasible. Also with a default of 0/0 cost settings
10:51<andythenorth>maybe in the description, or readme
10:52<@planetmaker>that could well be done additionally
10:52<@planetmaker>and would give some real value to the readme
10:53*andythenorth wishes there was an agreed standard for setting costs
10:53<andythenorth>but there's no way to figure one out
10:53<andythenorth>nor will we all agree
10:53<andythenorth>nor does that make good gameplay
10:53<andythenorth>something like cost / ton
10:53<andythenorth>cost / ton mile
10:54<andythenorth>but the results wouldn't be useful
10:54<@planetmaker>you need to figure at least also speed
10:55*ZirconiumX has ruined a sprite
10:55<ZirconiumX>something like that for salty deposits
10:55<andythenorth>grime! slime! salt! sea dogs!
10:55<andythenorth>I'll consider it
10:56<andythenorth>tropic buildings have mildew :)
10:56<andythenorth>maybe there's a case
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10:56*ZirconiumX runs andythenorth-ish to english translator
10:56<andythenorth>I'd rather have a frozen sea
10:56<andythenorth>you'll be lucky
10:56<andythenorth>I'm english english
10:56<ZirconiumX>I'll consider it = It's hopeless
10:56<andythenorth>so I don't speak the language
10:57<ZirconiumX>it is though
10:57<andythenorth>put it in the FIRS thread, see what others say
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11:00<ZirconiumX>now we wait
11:01<ZirconiumX>for everyone to laugh at me :(
11:01<andythenorth>or not ;)
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11:02<ZirconiumX>Well - I've *ruined* your sprite - and rushed it beyond any vain hope of it looking good
11:03<andythenorth>it's ok
11:03<andythenorth>I have backups :P
11:05<ZirconiumX>[CHIPS development thread] MAYO, KETCHUP, SALT + VINEGAR
11:05<ZirconiumX>I'm more a WORCESTER SAUCE myself
11:08<@SmatZ>why "hopeless" sprite?
11:09<ZirconiumX>because I am a feeble drawer
11:10<ZirconiumX>and the salt looks way too bright
11:10<ZirconiumX>and I've drawn it in the wrong place
11:10<@SmatZ>I don't see any salt there
11:10<ZirconiumX>my sprite
11:10<ZirconiumX>look at the original
11:10<ZirconiumX>and then look at mine
11:11<ZirconiumX>you should see that there are white spots
11:11<ZirconiumX>that's me
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11:11<@SmatZ>ok :)
11:12<@planetmaker>hm, andythenorth do fishing harbours require water or really sea?
11:12<@planetmaker>if it's "only" water, there's indeed a case for snowy harbours: on lakes ;-)
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11:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: that is a point of pain
11:18<andythenorth>as I have no control over that anyway
11:18<andythenorth>(it's that partially fixed location bug from a few months back)
11:19<andythenorth>'water tile' is not a very specific thing for newgrfs
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11:21<ZirconiumX>7th lne
11:22<ZirconiumX>To add to the list, let's remind that holding s*** while drawing a line makes it vertical/horizontal/ 45° angled.
11:23<ZirconiumX>he misspelt shift to *AHEM*
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11:35<@planetmaker>andythenorth, well, 'water' is not very specific. But IMHO it isn't wrong either to allow harbours on lakes ;-)
11:36<@planetmaker>but I do understand the 'need' to get more specific feed-back
11:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: bbl on this ;)
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13:04<andythenorth>can anyone ping and see if packets are lost?
13:04<supermop>i have no idea how to do that
13:04<Mazur>Does not seem like it.
13:05<Mazur>over 40 successful so far.
13:05<andythenorth>anyone else?
13:06<andythenorth>Mazur: what's your location (country is close enough)?
13:06<Mazur>75 packets transmitted, 71 received, 5% packet loss, time 75042ms
13:06<Mazur>rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 23.147/28.131/70.788/6.034 ms
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13:14<Hendikins>I can't help but think I should be using a dedicated server right now. I've got a game that keeps moving between my desktop and laptop.
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13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22354 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by SmatZ
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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14:14<andythenorth>how many menu groups in a station set is ideal?
14:14<andythenorth>or less?
14:16<@SmatZ>more or less
14:16<@SmatZ>I think more groups is better
14:16<@SmatZ>if the stations are split logically
14:21*Hendikins ponders how hard it would be to have a wait for full load of specific cargo, for when dealing with say, passenger jets.
14:22<__ln__>not realistic; the passengers would complain
14:22<@SmatZ>aircraft always wait only for full pax, afaik
14:22<@SmatZ>even when set to "full load"
14:24<Hendikins>SmatZ: I've found they'll take off with zero pax and full mail.
14:24<Hendikins>I'd rather have them wait for full passengers irrespective of mail loaded (and whack on a couple of aircraft refitted for mail to soak that cargo up)
14:25<Hendikins>It would also be applicable to mixed trains, etc.
14:25<@SmatZ>Hendikins: even when you set it to "full load"? (not "full load any")
14:25<@SmatZ>but yeah
14:25<@SmatZ>maybe there's a feature request for that somewhere
14:26<Hendikins>SmatZ: Full load waits for mail too.
14:29<Hendikins>Both behaviours are what I would expect (wait for full load of any one cargo or both), but not what I'd be after.
14:32<dihedral>"We will ask for your FTP credentials and automatically transfer the latest stable ocPortal to your server over an encrypted connection." <- LOL
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14:46<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I don't know how long TTD production took <-- the TTO manual had a section on game development, but i don't have it anymore... i lost it a long time ago
14:47<andythenorth>if I tried I could probably find out
14:47<andythenorth>the guy who fixed my windows used to work at microprose
14:47<andythenorth>such a glamorous life I lead
14:48<supermop>thinking of micropose makes me think of the red micropose logo fading in over the TTO theme
14:49<andythenorth>makes me think of the chipping sodbury mop dance
14:49<supermop>such an awesome song
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15:01<__ln__>anyone been following the news about the election in finland?
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15:07<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: I believe this is an accurate account of the development process:
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15:24<andythenorth>I have YAPF for my ships
15:24<andythenorth>doesn't solve an issue with silly ships though :)
15:24<andythenorth>ship in a closed body of water
15:24<andythenorth>trying to route to a depot in another body of water, land separated
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15:25<andythenorth>there is no valid route to that depot
15:25<andythenorth>but it tries anyway :P
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i do remember this paragraph in the manual where he talked about "coding an AI that makes sensible routes" :p
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18:11<@SmatZ>because two evenings are better than one!
18:13<andythenorth>if I could have two evenings for the price of one, I would be happy
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18:20<@Terkhen>good night
18:25<@SmatZ> good night Terkhen
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18:39<Wolf01>'night all
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18:54<@SmatZ>we got signal
18:58<pikka>I see the briefcase is still safe, actually. :)
18:58<pikka>but main screen turn on works too.
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19:07<pikka>I'm tired
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19:08<pikka>only 9.5 hours til I can go home D:
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19:19<Lakie>My reply ok pikka? 'tis a little vague on the specifics but should point him in the right direction?
19:19*Belugas supports your pain, pikka
19:19<Lakie>About putting random bits of code together and hoping?
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19:20<@Belugas>always pray when adding random bits of code... and compile first!
19:20<@Belugas>...look who is talking :S
19:21<Lakie>To be fair, I've been hoping that those two would start trying to undertand the concepts they are using.
19:21<Lakie>Well, I stick random bits of code in at times, but I always make an effort to understand what its doing...
19:21<Lakie>Otherwise its effectively useless. :)
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19:22<@Belugas>quite :)
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19:35*Belugas goes down and starts the TV-wife time :)
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19:50<pikka>having a tv wife must be good :)
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20:15<Eddi|zuHause>something doesn't compute with this turntable:
20:19<DanMacK>:/ Interesting
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>location is given as "Bw Kreuzberg im Ahrtal"
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 21 00:00:06 2011