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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-24

---Logopened Sun Apr 24 00:00:59 2011
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01:33<@planetmaker>moin
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02:52<Mazur>Good...
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03:00<yorick>moin
03:01<@Alberth>moin yorick, and welcome Mazur :)
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03:09<Mazur>It spoke/
03:10<Mazur>I think I never saw it spoke before.
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03:12<@Alberth>it left the room
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04:05<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Not really, as the date isn't increased during that, which means that NewGRF stuff (houses/industries) that make use of the date don't give proper production during the tile loop.
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06:14<andythenorth>improved? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=943371#p943371
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06:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, improved. But I somehow liked the more 'boring' way of the much less pronounced stories in the initial old version.
06:19<@planetmaker>Those textile factories I know don't have their stories as pronounced on the outside
06:19<andythenorth>hmm
06:19<@planetmaker>all other stuff like shadings and colours iMHO are better in the newest, though
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06:19<andythenorth>I was trying to address George's feedback :P
06:20<andythenorth>it's easy to change either way
06:21<@Alberth>the chimney looks out of place imho, it is too bulky compared to the building
06:22<@planetmaker>I'd not say that :-)
06:22<@planetmaker>chimneys tend to be bulky
06:22<@Alberth>especially, as you can enter it through a door :)
06:22<@planetmaker>:-P
06:23<andythenorth>I like the chunky chimney ;)
06:23<andythenorth>the door could stay or go
06:23<@planetmaker>might not fit for a chimney
06:23<@planetmaker>"enter here to incinerate yourself"
06:24<@Alberth>can you let the chimney start at the ground? Now it looks a bit like it is on top of that small building
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06:26<andythenorth>it is ;)
06:26*andythenorth tweaks
06:26<fonsinchen>Hi michi_cc
06:26<@Alberth>oh, you have an angled roof just at the left. not sure how appropriate that is, as you don't need much light around a big fire :)
06:28*Alberth makes some lunch
06:29<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/textile_mill_chimney_rework.png
06:29<@planetmaker>much improved chimney placement, indeed
06:30<andythenorth>no door ;P
06:30<@planetmaker>hm... :-P
06:31<@planetmaker>I compared to rework 2
06:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/textile_mill_storeys_rework.png
06:34<andythenorth>not convinced that last one improves anything much
06:35<andythenorth>brb
06:35<@planetmaker>well, it still looks like something is extruding from the wall at each story roof. That's a bit weired IMHO for a textile mill
06:36<@planetmaker>I really like the story separation of the old version, better :-)
06:37<@planetmaker>which is mostly a wall, that's it. That's what I expect of an industrial building
06:39<andythenorth>looked kind of...flat
06:39<andythenorth>I can reduce the shadows a bit below it
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06:41<andythenorth>maybe I just do a smaller line
06:41<andythenorth>http://www.vam.ac.uk/images/image/26442-large.jpg
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06:41<@planetmaker>there are no lines in that building.
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06:42<@planetmaker>hm... a VERY small one under the windows
06:42<fonsinchen>michi_cc: You've been working on YACD since june 2009 (judging from your git log). You could have told me about it and it would be ready by now ...
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06:43<fonsinchen>I don't insist on cargodist being the only true way to do it, you know ...
06:45<Ammler>are destination and distribution completely different? Maybe you could combine some stuff?
06:45<@planetmaker>fonsinchen: that's just the way he works: hide for long and then *pop*, "I've a somewhat working implementation here". It certainly has nothing to do with you or hiding it from anyone.
06:46<fonsinchen>We can combine some stuff. He can take my smallmap and viewport overlays for example.
06:46<fonsinchen>Or I can take his integration with the pathfinder if I understand how it works.
06:47<Ammler>both are almost useless without is ;-)
06:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth , the line width in the old style is IMHO appropriate
06:47<fonsinchen>He's right though. The approaches are quite different. He has fixed destinations while cargodist only takes destinations reachable in the given network.
06:48<@planetmaker>yes. The difference is distribution vs. destinations
06:48<fonsinchen>I chose this approach as it's easier in the early game and gives the player more freedom to shape the network.
06:48<@planetmaker>spellt that way it gets clear(er)
06:49<Ammler>fonsinchen: your destination is mainly for lazy guys, so they don't need to care about transfer :-)
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06:49<fonsinchen>Both approaches have their merits I think. One could even imagine an implementation offering both as options.
06:50<fonsinchen>Being lazy is what drives humanity forward ;)
06:51<fonsinchen>Also this was the very problem that drove me to start with cargodist: You can't create a passenger network where people will transfer at a hub (for example a central station) to and from a local transport service correctly without cargodist.
06:52<Ammler>true, that is the main usage of it
06:53<fonsinchen>Also you cannot do partial transfers without cargodist (or another form of destinations or distribution)
06:53<Ammler>how hard would it be to make such things manually?
06:54<Ammler>I mean, would that be a complete new patch or could cargodist already allow something like that?
06:54<fonsinchen>Easier than cargodist probably. But when thinking about it I though: Well, now that I'm at it I could also make it determine the transfer amounts automatically.
06:55<fonsinchen>And then one thing lead to the next and in the end I had cargodist.
06:56<fonsinchen>If I'd do the partial and to/from transfers separately now, I'd make those a bunch of special orders. That would be a completely different approach than cargodist.
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06:59<fonsinchen>Well, it seems michi_cc isn't answering today. I'm offline for now. Happy Easter.
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07:07<andythenorth_>planetmaker: something more in this direction? http://tt-foundry.com/misc/textile_mill_smaller_shadow.png
07:08<andythenorth_>it needs to keep some shading + relief, or it looks like a slab
07:08<@planetmaker>yes, that's the right direction from my subjective point of view
07:08<andythenorth_>I'm fine with it
07:09<andythenorth_>I think that's enough shadow removed
07:09<andythenorth_>or it looks 'realistic'
07:09<andythenorth_>not 'game art'
07:10<andythenorth_>planetmaker: wrt OpenGFX factory sprites...
07:11<@planetmaker>jo?
07:11<andythenorth_>I am going to redraw FIRS glass works
07:11<andythenorth_>it will use 2x2 repeated modules
07:11<andythenorth_>and it will be quite factory-like
07:11<@planetmaker>hm :-)
07:11<@planetmaker>I'll look forward to seeing that
07:11<andythenorth_>building shape will be quite similar to ttd factory
07:11<andythenorth_>shading might be different
07:11<andythenorth_>might not be brick, but more similar to station shading
07:12<andythenorth_>unless that sucks
07:12<andythenorth_>hmm
07:12<andythenorth_>should I reply to Leanden about FIRS IDs?
07:12<andythenorth_>might be flame-alike :P
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07:13<@planetmaker>hm, where, what?
07:14<andythenorth_>FIRS dev thread ;)
07:16<@planetmaker>do the Pikka thing ;-)
07:16<Pikka>what's a pikkathing?
07:17<@planetmaker>silently ignore nasty stuff ;-)
07:17<Pikka>do I do that?
07:17<@planetmaker>stuff as in stupid comments and alike
07:17<@planetmaker>I guess, yes
07:18<@planetmaker>:-) It's meant as a compliment, you know
07:18<andythenorth_>he's just lazy :P
07:18<@planetmaker>:-P
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07:18<andythenorth_>real men get involved in pissy flamer wars ;)
07:20<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/164/ <-- unfortunately osie doesn't tell the game log and only the current newgrf config, not its history
07:22<@planetmaker>Pikka: maybe more accurately the "thing" should translate to "silently ignore feedback for a newgrf you disagree with" ;-)
07:23<andythenorth_>Pikka: do you overpaint renders for AV8?
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07:23<andythenorth_>or have you got a magic render setting?
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07:33<Pikka>andy, I remove odd pixels and add details like windows
07:33<Pikka>but most of the shading and shaping is pure render
07:35<andythenorth_>interestink
07:35<andythenorth_>it doesn't add unhelpful anti-aliasing? and it renders in correct palette?
07:36<Pikka>it doesn't add unhelpful anti-aliasing, and I convert the palette in psp
07:36<andythenorth_>drawing FISH took a lot of work - cleaning the renders
07:36<Pikka>using a cut-down version of the ttd palette that only has the colour ranges I want it to use :)
07:37<Pikka>what do you use to render, andy?
07:38<andythenorth_>I use a thing called lead@inbox ;)
07:38<andythenorth_>he's very quick
07:38<Pikka>oh :)
07:38<Pikka>and what does he use, blender?
07:38<andythenorth_>not sure, didn't ask ;)
07:38<andythenorth_>I used to use cinema 4D a lot, but not for TTD
07:38<andythenorth_>and some other more motion-graphics type 3D software
07:38<Pikka>I could never make head nor tail of blender, but I see no reason why it shouldn't produce the same results as max
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07:39<andythenorth_>I never learnt max
07:39<andythenorth_>but we made this in it: http://www.dudecorp.com/prank_caller
07:40<andythenorth_>planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=943396#p943396
07:42<andythenorth_>I should swap one of the warehouse tiles out for a yard
07:42<__ln__>https://forums.aws.amazon.com/thread.jspa?threadID=65649&tstart=0
07:42<andythenorth_>with some boxes and stuff
07:43<@planetmaker>good idea
07:44<andythenorth_>__ln__: AWS goes away sometimes ;)
07:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth_: you definitely watched too often "Cube" ;-)
07:44<andythenorth_>I haven't seen it, but IMDB suggests I should ;)
07:46<Pikka>www.pruplethingz.com/junk/Image44.png
07:46<andythenorth_>hmm
07:46<andythenorth_>eGRVTS isn't maintained
07:46<andythenorth_>zeph is busy
07:46<Pikka>render, palletted, sprite... not too much work done on that one.
07:47<andythenorth_>that's very clean indeed
07:47<andythenorth_>planetmaker: should we take over eGRVTS?
07:47<andythenorth_>I'd rather not
07:47<andythenorth_>but it's not maintained...
07:47<Pikka>sometimes I might do things like manually dither the border between two shades on the fins or wings, but obviously on this one I couldn't be bothered :)
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>Leanden is also one of those pathologic cases...
07:52<Pikka>"I did it for the hovercraft because it's clever, not because it's good" <- this sounds like the thinking behind regearing :)
07:52<andythenorth_> ho
07:52<andythenorth_>indeed
07:52<@Alberth>let's add a new feature so it gets broken :p
07:53<andythenorth_>how about smoke?
07:53<Pikka>yes!
07:53<andythenorth_>yes!
07:53<andythenorth_>smoke is in a sad state
07:53<andythenorth_>it would be a nice easter present :P
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: something "elementary" similar to the disable-turning-around-in-depot
07:53<andythenorth_>smoke!
07:53<Pikka>smoke would be good for wakes also
07:54<Pikka>for mah seaplanes
07:54<Pikka>;)
07:54<andythenorth_>only if fully implemented as newgrf effect vehicles :P
07:54<Pikka>yes
07:54<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: if we can break more things, so much the better :p
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: can't you abuse rotor for that?
07:54<Pikka>but there's no reason not to go that whole hog, is there? :P
07:54<andythenorth_>I would pay 1 dollar to be able to use the current nearly-working-but-broken smoke :P
07:54<andythenorth_>adding current smoke broke DB Set
07:54<andythenorth_>all kinds of drama
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>or: shadow
07:55<Pikka>pretty sure you can't have a rotor on something that's not a helicopter, eddi, and it wouldn't be much good because it moves with the vehicle anyway.
07:55<Pikka>adding a wake as part of the main sprite is no big drama, it just will be hard to make it look as good as a "particle effect" type wake.
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you're right
07:55<andythenorth_>wake with the sea animation is...acceptable
07:55<andythenorth_>not beautiful
07:56<andythenorth_>or there's this one - this could introduce some helpful breakage
07:56<andythenorth_>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=143812
07:56<andythenorth_>that involves New*****Ports
07:56<andythenorth_>or whatever it's called
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>NewFuckingPorts!
07:57<Pikka>http://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/4/49/Medic_autodejectedtie01.wav andy
07:57<Pikka>hooray for newports!
07:58<andythenorth_>newports would also put an end to helicopter fishing
07:58<andythenorth_>about two years ago frosch had a patch to 'fix' stations on water
07:59<andythenorth_>but newports is doing it right :P
07:59<andythenorth_>why can't we be more like PHP?
07:59<Pikka>I've often wondered that
07:59<andythenorth_>do it wrong, but win
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: we'd be TTDPatch then ;)
08:00<andythenorth_>my day job is very python-focussed, which also means everything must be done right there too
08:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth_: switch to the competition project. They work that way :-P
08:00<Pikka>gnupots
08:00*Pikka toddles off to make tea
08:00*andythenorth_ should go to the shops
08:00<@planetmaker>shops? On Easter Sunday?
08:00<andythenorth_>if newports was done when we both get back, that would be nice
08:00<andythenorth_>planetmaker: dunno, they might be shut
08:00<andythenorth_>could be a dissapointing trip
08:02<Pikka>shops here are shut today and tomorrow, it is a bad time to be low on supplies
08:03<@planetmaker>quite
08:03<Pikka>man cannot live on chocolate rabbits alone
08:03<@planetmaker>:-D
08:03<@planetmaker>unless filled with beer?
08:04<XeryusTC>Pikka: man cannot live on rabbits alone :P
08:04<@planetmaker>vegitarians eat my food's food ;-) But beef instead of rabbit is fine, too
08:05<@planetmaker>'nough of clichés now :-P
08:06<Pikka>actually that's very true XeryusTC
08:07<Pikka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation
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09:17<ZirconiumX>Hello all
09:32<@Alberth>@seen all
09:32<@DorpsGek>Alberth: I have not seen all.
09:32<@Alberth>nope, not here
09:33<ZirconiumX>@seen someone
09:33<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: someone was last seen in #openttd 27 weeks, 0 days, 19 hours, 52 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
09:33<ZirconiumX>WTF
09:33*ZirconiumX thinks DorpsGek has a long memory
09:34<@Alberth>he is less crazy than you may think :p
09:35<ZirconiumX>no - I thought that he was sane - now he's less than sane :p
09:35<@Alberth>'DorpsGek' means 'Village idiot' in Dutch :)
09:35<ZirconiumX>lol
09:36<ZirconiumX><AI Debug> <Error> PAnic!
09:36<ZirconiumX>*Panic!
09:36<@Alberth>nice :p
09:37<ZirconiumX>the panic, or the less than sane bit?
09:37<@Alberth>your panic message :)
09:38<ZirconiumX>Based on the road pathfinder
09:38<ZirconiumX>SampleAI::Stop()
09:38<ZirconiumX>{
09:38<ZirconiumX>AILog.Error("Panic!")
09:39<@Alberth>use a paste bin :)
09:39<ZirconiumX>}
09:39<@Alberth>ah, not a real panic, just a simulated one :)
09:39<ZirconiumX>That's where I borrowed the Idea from
09:40<ZirconiumX>- as well as the Ooops messages
09:42<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/2RbpvNTx
09:51<ZirconiumX>I'm going to do something that probably isn't helpful - but what the heck
09:58<ZirconiumX>meh - It doesn't have quite the same effect
09:58<ZirconiumX>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Linux-2.6-oops-parisc.jpg
09:58<ZirconiumX>is what I'm hoping for
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10:01<ZirconiumX>this good enough?
10:01<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/30dqSCDf
10:02<@Alberth>only you can decide :)
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10:03<ZirconiumX>It'll probably look terrible in the font
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10:12<Wolf01>hello
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10:14<ZirconiumX>hello Wolf01
10:15<ZirconiumX>I've axed the dead donkey - openttd complained
10:16<ZirconiumX>lol
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10:32<ZirconiumX>Hmm
10:33<ZirconiumX>How do I take the AITownList output and turn it into something I can go:
10:33<ZirconiumX>town_a = AITownList.Begin()
10:33<ZirconiumX>town_b = AITownList.Next()
10:34<ZirconiumX>then
10:34<ZirconiumX>town_b = blah.Next()
10:34<ZirconiumX>in a spiderweb fashion
10:37<ZirconiumX>Anyone?
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10:49<dihedral>ZirconiumX, monogloguing?
10:49<ZirconiumX>?
10:53<ZirconiumX>monologuing?
10:53*ZirconiumX is connfused
10:53<ZirconiumX>s/conn/con
10:58<@planetmaker>a dihedral ! Happy Easter :-)
10:59<dihedral>Hoppy easter to you too planetmaker :-)
11:02<ZirconiumX>Happy easter pm & dihedral
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11:53<__ln__>http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2011/04/msg00023.html
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>i read about that
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11:59<@planetmaker>ridiculous
12:01<ZirconiumX>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=40203&start=420#p942632
12:01<ZirconiumX>:p
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>ZirconiumX: what are you trying to tell us with that?
12:16<ZirconiumX>nvm - I just found it funny
12:23<Sacro>hang on, diagonal bridges?
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: no.
12:24<Sacro>no, perspective is borked
12:31<@planetmaker>I wonder though which part, ZirconiumX ;-)
12:55-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
12:55-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
12:56<ZirconiumX><random comment alert - ignore if you wish> http://www.viceland.com/wp/2009/07/babes-of-the-bnp/ extract Which do you dislike more, Muslims or Hindus? Muslims. They’re the ones who’ve got the most attention, they’re the ones who are kicking off about things the most. They’re more in the public eye as troublemakers </random comment>
12:57<ZirconiumX>Hi Alberth
12:58*Alberth dislikes random comments VERY much
12:59<ZirconiumX>At least I warned you...
13:02<__ln__>is "30jähriger" spelled like that, or with a dash?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>depends...
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>without dash wins on google...
13:04<@Alberth>ZirconiumX: it is a gross generalization of two religious groups of people, it has a very non-friendly political message that its author is trying to sell
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>ah no, with "" it doesn't
13:04<__ln__>googlefight is not the optimal tool for correct spelling in general :)
13:04<@Alberth>ZirconiumX: and apparently, you like it enough to further spread it
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13:07<andythenorth_>wtf is zirconiumx doing posting that here?
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: duden-suche.de says "1. -jäh|rig: in Zusb., z.B. achtjährig (mit Ziffer: 8-jährig): acht Jahre alt, dauernd."
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: so with - when you use the number, without - when you write out the number
13:08<andythenorth_>ho
13:08<andythenorth_>it's satire
13:08<andythenorth_>wonder if he knows it's satire? :o
13:09*Alberth failed to understand it as such
13:09<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: thanks; the only remaining mystery then is why is the dashless version so common, with digits
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: as far as i understand it, the - is part of the spelling reform
13:15<__ln__>ahh, i learned deutsch mostly before the reform
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>http://faql.de/rechtschreibung.html#jaehrig
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22375 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 3 changes by jomasaco
13:51<andythenorth_>hmm
13:51<andythenorth_>is newgrf for idiots who can't use default vehicles?
13:51<andythenorth_>or industries
13:51<andythenorth_>remove it!
13:51<andythenorth_>I'll stay home and look after the baby instead
13:51<andythenorth_>;)
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13:56<@Alberth>:(
13:57<andythenorth_>Alberth: any more thoughts on the industry layouts? :)
13:57<andythenorth_>that's for idiots who don't like random :D
13:58<@Alberth>or newgrf authors that want to have more than one industry layout ;)
14:00<andythenorth_>hmm
14:00<andythenorth_>the 'idiots' stuff happened in the other channel :P
14:00*andythenorth_ is an idiot
14:01<@Alberth>aren't we all? :p
14:05<@Alberth>But no, I haven't it given any further thought.
14:05<@Alberth>I currently still think that it would be nice if a user can state what industry he wants exactly, but that makes life also very complicated for the case of having exactly one industry layout, as the window makes not much sense then.
14:05<andythenorth_>indeed
14:05<andythenorth_>it makes most sense in case of things like FIRS fishing harbour
14:06<andythenorth_>other than that, I'd rather have less choice about this kind of thing
14:07<@Alberth>indeed, so maybe my assumption is not good :)
14:07<@Alberth>that is, a user should not want such things
14:08<andythenorth_>there are cases for it
14:08<andythenorth_>but my case is as a newgrf developer
14:08<andythenorth_>which is somewhat different
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14:09<@Alberth>I guess there are lots of things that have layout, do you have control for those?
14:09<andythenorth_>such as?
14:09<@Alberth>for newobjects, yes
14:10<@Alberth>do houses have layout?
14:10<@Alberth>for stations, yes
14:10<andythenorth_>houses players have no control over
14:11<andythenorth_>stations is on a tile-by-tile basis
14:11<@Alberth>I was thinking that too :)
14:12<andythenorth_>your patch works perfectly for newgrf development btw
14:12<@Alberth>airport graphics exist only in one orientation
14:12<andythenorth_>I'm using it right now
14:13<@Alberth>although if we ever get state machines, we'll need layouts for sea ports, and airports too
14:13<andythenorth_>true
14:13<andythenorth_>if ever...
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14:16<@Alberth>and ideally, we'd need sprites seperately for displaying the layout
14:18<andythenorth_>hmm
14:23<DanMacK>layout for what?
14:24<andythenorth_>industries
14:25<DanMacK>ahhh
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14:33<@planetmaker>Alberth: I attached as mock-up what is my idea of the transparency window
14:35<andythenorth_>hmm
14:35<andythenorth_>what's the case for full animation ever being off?
14:35<andythenorth_>this is not 1994
14:35<@Alberth>planetmaker: I like it! :)
14:36<@Alberth>andythenorth_: I find moving water annoying
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14:36<andythenorth_>or to put it another way....why can't these go in advanced settings, interface
14:36<andythenorth_>how often during gameplay do they need turned on / off
14:36<@Alberth>'full animation' is just palette animation
14:36<andythenorth_>yarp
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14:36<@Alberth>so even in 1994 it was not expensive :)
14:37<andythenorth_>so for people with certain visual field problems, it might be annoying?
14:37<andythenorth_>etc
14:37<andythenorth_>advanced setting
14:37<andythenorth_>there's no serious case for turning it on / off easily during gameplay
14:37<asilv_>I usually turn it off once game starts to run slowly, happens at most games
14:37<@Alberth>I agree
14:37<andythenorth_>if we did a scoring exercise with limited points for GUI items, it would score low
14:37<@Alberth>asilv_: so does it have any effect?
14:38<@planetmaker>that's how I handle those two settings, too
14:38<andythenorth_>does it have *any* measurable performance effect at all?
14:38<@planetmaker>yep. quite
14:38<@Alberth>andythenorth_: I'd be surprised :)
14:38<@planetmaker>turning it off and on?
14:38<asilv_>yes, especially on fast forward
14:38<andythenorth_>I don't understand blitters, but everything has to run through the sprite sorter anyway, transforming this palette is minimal CPU
14:39<andythenorth_>if it really matters, we should also disable all company colours
14:39<@planetmaker>full animation has more effect, but full animation also makes a difference on 'heavy' games
14:39<@Alberth>full details, I heop
14:39<@Alberth>*hope
14:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth_: the point is: much more has to be re-drawn in the animation case
14:39<@planetmaker>like all water etc. All that can be skipped, nothing needs sorting
14:39<andythenorth_>we should also disable the transparent station roofs and aircraft shadows?
14:39<@planetmaker>nor blitting
14:40*andythenorth_ is arguing to learn, not for arguing's sake
14:40<asilv_>i was talking about animation, full detail does not have any noticeable effect
14:40<andythenorth_>science would tell us the answer?
14:40-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:40<andythenorth_>i.e. measure it
14:41<andythenorth_>or just move it to advanced settings :)
14:41<@Alberth>full details controls details around tracks and roads, eg street lights
14:41<andythenorth_>interface -> display options
14:42<@Alberth>good point imho
14:42<andythenorth_>I use full details to turn off fences
14:42<andythenorth_>but I rarely need to turn it on/off in gameplay
14:42<andythenorth_>it's a set-once kind of thing
14:42*Alberth likes fences
14:42<andythenorth_>turning on/off transparency is a much more common task
14:42<@planetmaker>so do I like fences :-)
14:43<andythenorth_>I have nothing against them - I just mostly use NARS, and US railroads are unfenced
14:43<andythenorth_>'realism' :P
14:44<andythenorth_>planetmaker: the lock buttons do what in your mockup?
14:45<@planetmaker>same as now
14:45<@Alberth>lock them, so 'x' has no effect
14:45<@planetmaker>fix the setting from being changed by pressing 'x'
14:45*andythenorth_ tries to work out how that works now
14:45<@planetmaker>btw, you see my default settings ;-)
14:45*andythenorth_ is confused
14:45<@Alberth>ctrl click :)
14:46<andythenorth_>oh my
14:46<andythenorth_>how handy
14:46<@planetmaker>except industries which I changed there for the purpose of demonstration
14:46<@planetmaker>lol, you didn't know that?
14:46<andythenorth_>'yet another feature"
14:46<andythenorth_>I like the current icons + layout
14:46<andythenorth_>are words needed?
14:47<andythenorth_>(I'm not against change)
14:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth_: but... it doesn't cover all options
14:47<@Alberth>it would be nice if visibility was merged into that window
14:47<@planetmaker>^
14:47<andythenorth_>agreed
14:48<andythenorth_>sometimes when a word and icon are needed both, it indicates one is failing
14:48<andythenorth_>(or both)
14:49<andythenorth_>if both *are* needed, then the layout could be improved simply by cropping bridge icon
14:49<@Alberth>ie we should drop the text part?
14:49<@planetmaker>the icons could be skipped. or replaced by words. They indicate the state
14:49<@planetmaker>yes, that could be done
14:49<andythenorth_>indeed
14:49<@planetmaker>but that's the least of the issues
14:49<andythenorth_>losing the icons seems a bit wrong
14:50<@planetmaker>quite. We all seem to agree there :-)
14:50<@planetmaker>it gives quick visual feedback
14:50<andythenorth_>for the way I setup the gui, I wouldn't mind a switch from horizontal to vertical dialog
14:50<andythenorth_>it could go at the left or right hand edge of the screen neatly
14:50<andythenorth_>but the main issue is how to interact?
14:51<andythenorth_>there are three states: opaque, semi-transparent, transparent
14:51<andythenorth_>+ lock
14:51<@planetmaker>I don't really think so. The main issue is how to add the yes/no switches to the 3-way (or 4-way if locked) switches of the current transparency
14:52<andythenorth_>that's not the same as setting one of three states + lock? :o
14:54<andythenorth_>I don't know of a GUI control type to do this other than < > arrows or drop-down menu
14:55<@planetmaker>nor do I. But horizontally two buttons next to eachother look bad.
14:55<@Alberth>click several times at the icon?
14:56<@planetmaker>Or another over-print icon for transparency is used. But that's then basically 3-state as we don't have a 2nd control
14:56<@planetmaker>that's my idea, Alberth, yes
14:57<@Alberth>and keep control click for fixating for 'x' (while still allowing a normal click)
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't like overloading the current toolbar with text...
14:57<@planetmaker>yep, keeping basically the same ctrl behaviour
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion: a "large/small version" button like the finance window to switch between toolbar-like and setting-like window?
14:59<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I am currently not even sure we need a (much) bigger window, its seems we can do without the text
14:59<@planetmaker>maybe, yes
14:59<@planetmaker>then we just need additional icons. And not even that, if we move all those to the adv. settings
15:00<@Alberth>I agree on full animation and full details to the adv settings, but not the other ones imho
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: for "full animation" use a water icon, and for "full details" a fence icon?
15:00<andythenorth_>I thought of click three times
15:00<andythenorth_>but it's non-standard
15:00<@planetmaker>would work, yes, Eddi|zuHause
15:00<andythenorth_>planetmaker: use the colour cycle for the icon :P
15:01<andythenorth_>then it stops / starts
15:01<andythenorth_>which might be what Eddi mean
15:01<andythenorth_>t
15:01<@planetmaker>he. better idea :-)
15:01<@planetmaker>the palette from the newgrf wiki ;-)
15:01<@planetmaker>16x16 px are sufficient
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>what?
15:02<@planetmaker>the full palette also with the animated pixels
15:02<@Alberth>except nobody understands that icon :)
15:02<@planetmaker>I guess. Sad :-P
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>that's the most stupid idea i heard today... honestly...
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>something about the industry layouts: if the layout is known beforehand, the affected tilearea can be highlighted properly
15:04<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: the layout could be selected when the 'fund' button is pressed...
15:04<andythenorth_>and passed on to the next function
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: so one can enforce a different layout by unselecting fund again?
15:05<andythenorth_>oh
15:05<andythenorth_>interestink
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15:23<@Alberth>andythenorth_: the white stripe is very good, it makes the buildings and the chimney belong together more
15:23<andythenorth_>I think so
15:24<andythenorth_>and it reduces the amount of orangey-brown colour, which is a bit like sick :P
15:25<@Alberth>yeah, it looks more fresh, although the door colors may also have to do with that
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15:52<andythenorth_>hmm
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15:52<andythenorth_>the current transparency window isn't 100% intuitive anyway
15:52<andythenorth_>is it common to alternate between partial and full transparency?
15:53<andythenorth_>or could that just be a setting?
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15:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: it is common to have one on partial and another on full transparency
15:53<@Alberth>it would be many settings then
15:53<andythenorth_>true
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15:55<andythenorth_>hmm
15:55<andythenorth_>we do already have a case of click multiple times for different settings
15:55<andythenorth_>in orders
15:55<andythenorth_>far | middle | near
15:57<@Alberth>having a dropdown there would be somewhat messy? :)
15:57<@Alberth>I think 3 values is doable for a button
15:57<andythenorth_>dropdown would suck graphically
15:57<andythenorth_>and the < > arrows make for *very* small hit targets
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but what about the X key?
15:58<@Alberth>what about it? ie I don't see the connection
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>assuming i set the button to invisible with the 3-click method
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>then i press X to revert it to visible
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>and press X again
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>then it would turn to transparent, not invisible
15:59<@Alberth>huh?
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15:59<andythenorth_>it can't be a push button if we have 3 values on it
15:59<andythenorth_>it has to be some other control
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: using the X key must remember whether it was transparent or invisible the last time, so a 4th state
16:00<@Alberth>these icon buttons are for defining where 'x' toggles to right?, it is not that 'x' touches those icon buttons itself
16:01<andythenorth_>the interaction of X with the transparency totally confuses me
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: x toggles all buttons that are not locked. the GUI may toggle individual buttons
16:01<andythenorth_>I can't create a mental model for it
16:02<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: oh, now I see the confusion
16:02<@Alberth>I was under the impression that x toggles between visible and the state set by the icon button, unless the latter is locked, in which case you always get the state of the icon button
16:03<andythenorth_>it's confusing :P
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16:05<andythenorth_>what's good about the current behaviour?
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>everything except that the invisibility button is not labelled
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>(imho)
16:06<Rubidium>oh... going to make that idiot proof as well?
16:06<@Alberth>you can have different interpretations of the x toggle without running into trouble :p
16:10<andythenorth_>there's no available modifier key other than ctrl?
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16:13<@Alberth>right mouse may be used for tooltips
16:13<Rubidium>in theory (assuming you're still talking about the transparency window) you could use shift, but that's generally used for cost estimates
16:14<@Alberth>theoretically, there is also shift and alt, but openttd does not use them anywhere afaik
16:14<Rubidium>the alt is used by window managers to move the screen, and as such can't be used
16:14<andythenorth_>how does 'signs displayed' compare with 'signs invisible'?
16:14<Rubidium>they're equal-ish
16:14<andythenorth_>Alberth: ^ that reduces one item yes / no?
16:14<Rubidium>both have to be "visible" for the signs to be visible
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: transparent signs are text without background
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>(at least that's for station signs)
16:15<andythenorth_>Alberth: in your image here...http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=143828
16:15<@Alberth>no, as Eddi|zuHause just explained :)
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16:15<andythenorth_>I don't follow
16:15<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: for normal signs too
16:15<andythenorth_>why do I need a menu option for 'signs displayed' ?
16:15<@Alberth>andythenorth_: a sign has 3 states, invisible, text visible, text+background visible
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: sign visible: black text on company coloured background, sign transparend: company coloured text on transparent background, sign invisible: no text
16:16<andythenorth_>I can see that
16:16<andythenorth_>but why also a menu option for it?
16:16<andythenorth_>seems redundant
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: hysterical raisins
16:17<andythenorth_>so I figured
16:17<andythenorth_>planetmaker reached same conclusion as me in his mockup - or made a mistake....
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: there's a reason why we're discussing unification :)
16:18<andythenorth_>why don't we put every possible menu option in every menu - all the time
16:18<andythenorth_>that will help the idiots :P
16:18<andythenorth_>they'll always be able to find what they want...eventually
16:19<@Alberth>but we don't want the idiots here, we want the non-idiots
16:20<andythenorth_>how are we doing with that? :)
16:20<@Alberth>I will leave shortly :p
16:21<andythenorth_>in current transparency GUI...
16:21<andythenorth_>it would make more sense to me if small button was 'lock' and had a lock icon on it
16:21<andythenorth_>and ctrl-click changed transparency type
16:21<andythenorth_>but change upsets people :)
16:22<@Alberth>but your aim is to set transparency with that window, not locking, isn't it?
16:23<@Alberth>to make it more clear we'd need to add lock buttons there
16:25<andythenorth_>I kind of mean that
16:25<andythenorth_>currently there is a small non-labelled toggle for fully / partial opaque
16:25<andythenorth_>scrap that
16:25<andythenorth_>make a lock-toggle button with lock icon (bool)
16:26<andythenorth_>use ctrl-click on main icon to decide fully / partial opaque
16:26<@Alberth>I'd use a triple click rather than ctl+click
16:27<andythenorth_>true
16:27<andythenorth_>but there's no good control for that ?
16:27<@Alberth>what about the idea proposed by our planet person?
16:28<andythenorth_>those < > buttons are very hard to acquire
16:28<@Alberth>ie 3 different graphics
16:28<@Alberth>(and no <> buttons imho)
16:29<@planetmaker>I just wonder how obvious that will be to new users.
16:29<@planetmaker>Just like andy only discovered the ctrl+click today
16:29<@Alberth>1 button, click goes to partial, click again goes to full (outline graphics?), click again goes to solid again
16:30<andythenorth_>try it?
16:30<@Alberth>planetmaker: what do you do if you have partial and you want to change it?
16:30<@Alberth>(to solid)
16:30<andythenorth_>if it uses a toggle on / off button, it might be counter-intuitive ;)
16:30<andythenorth_>maybe we can fix that...
16:31<@Alberth>I think there is only one choice, namely click the button, and wow, I got invisible now
16:31<@Alberth>ie you cannot miss it
16:32<@Alberth>andythenorth_: true, not a toggle button, a push button is better
16:32<andythenorth_>push, push, push
16:32<@planetmaker>yep
16:32<@planetmaker>seems the best
16:32<andythenorth_>remind me - why change the current panel? except to add new items?
16:33<@Alberth>some andythenorth_ wanted a vertical row of icons? :p
16:33<andythenorth_>it was just a suggestion :)
16:33<andythenorth_>no charge for suggestions...
16:34<andythenorth_>nor warranty :P
16:34<@Alberth>but I think we should keep the current row as is, perhaps move the light green buttons to the top and add the lock icon onto it, to make clear it has changed
16:34<andythenorth_>ho that would work
16:34<@Alberth>andythenorth_: you are lucky you don't live in germany :)
16:35<andythenorth_>I'd have to provide a warranty?
16:35<@Alberth>yep, you cannot deny liability
16:35<@Alberth>hence the MIT license is invalid there :)
16:36<andythenorth_>GPL too probably
16:36<andythenorth_>Alberth: if the three-click thing is weird, try ctrl-click or shift-click ;)
16:37*Alberth should program a keyboard-upside-down+click :p
16:38<andythenorth_>space-click
16:38<andythenorth_>hold f1 and f12 whilst clicking :P
16:38<@Alberth>ok, thanks for the elaborate discussion
16:39<andythenorth_>prevented me redrawing textile mill again
16:39<@Alberth>I thought you were done with it for now
16:39<andythenorth_>which is net benefit to world I guess
16:39<andythenorth_>I doubt it's going to improve much
16:40<@Alberth>just define it as optimal, as is
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16:41<@Alberth>if people have criticism ask them to send a patch
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>i really don't like the 3-state idea...
16:42<andythenorth_>send a patch
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16:42<andythenorth_>bah
16:42<andythenorth_>I usually have catenary set to invisible
16:43<andythenorth_>so that steam trams don't look stupid
16:43<andythenorth_>now I have random bits of electrified track all over my network
16:43<andythenorth_>didn't notice I had electrified track building selected
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16:44<andythenorth_>do we need roadtypes?
16:44<DanMacK>Yes
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>currently, the transparency gui has 3 functions: i can toggle whether a category should be transparent, i can toggle whether transparency should be invisibility without actually changing the visibility, and i can exclude a category toggling with the X key
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>when you replace it with a 3-state button, either function 1 or function 2 is removed
16:45<andythenorth_>can't we just set a tile bit for catenary? And add a new building option...tram tracks w/catenary, without catenary
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>you can make the X key three-state as well, but that only means you have to press X twice many times... which is IMHO a degration from current usability
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>have i mentioned that i'm against the three-state button?
16:48<@Alberth>yes, but I don't understand why, exactly
16:49<@Alberth>perhaps because we have a different functioning of buttons and 'x' in our mind
16:49<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: how do you exclude a category toggling with the x key?
16:50<andythenorth_>not that it matters...
16:50<andythenorth_>nvm
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's the lock icon
16:50<andythenorth_>I see the point about function 1 & 2
16:51<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: as I see it, 'x' toggles between visible and other state. Other state is one of 3, controlled by the icon button. locking is when you want 'x' to always display 'other' state
16:51<andythenorth_>ach
16:51<andythenorth_>just leave it as it is?
16:52<andythenorth_>least work :P
16:52<@Alberth>says the person tweaking textile mills forever :p
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16:53<andythenorth_>the current design is optimum for Eddi
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16:55<andythenorth_>hmm
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16:56*andythenorth_ goes back to tweaking endlessly
16:56<@Alberth>perhaps I am missing something, but transparency and invisibility are too much related to have a drop-down and a button for them
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: imagine the following situation: i have bridges and houses set to "turn invisible" with the X key. now i want to temporarily have houses invisible but bridges visible, so i click on the houses button (twice, because it's three-state) to make houses invisible. now i click on the houses button again to make houses visible again. now i press "X", what should happen to houses now?
16:56<andythenorth_>Alberth: the stuff in the menu completely confuses me
16:57<andythenorth_>"Station names displayed" and "Transparent station signs" is apparently broken somehow
16:57<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you don't want forced visibility?
16:57<andythenorth_>transparent station signs is a totally pointless menu option
16:58<andythenorth_>first I toggle sign 'display' on|off and then I can toggle sign transparency on|off
16:58<andythenorth_>stupid
16:58<andythenorth_>why not one menu item for that, instead of two, one of which is broken depending on the setting of the other
16:58<andythenorth_>?
16:59<andythenorth_>historical raisins probably :)
16:59<andythenorth_>maybe something to do with waypoint signs?
17:00<andythenorth_>so I can (1) choose stations, waypoints, or both, then (2) set all visible to transparent
17:00<andythenorth_>still confusing
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i don't think i can explain my problem so you understand it, if you haven't understood it at this point.
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>anyway. my opinion is: move the dropdown entries to the transparency gui, but don't tamper with the behaviour of the gui
17:03<@Alberth>I think I see the problem, but I cannot see how far reaching this problem is
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17:04<andythenorth_>Eddi|zuHause: I see the problem
17:04<andythenorth_>it's valid imho
17:04<@Alberth>that is, what kinds of things do you want to exclude from the x toggle?
17:04<andythenorth_>for me, I don't care about partial transparency, (I just use fully transparent) but that's a matter of taste and ymmv etc.
17:06<andythenorth_>leaving the GUI alone might be best
17:06<andythenorth_>although I'm sad that I didn't know about the lock
17:07<andythenorth_>I've been irritated for years by accidentally turning trees back on with x key
17:08<@Terkhen>good night
17:08<@Alberth>and you never asked a question about it :(
17:08<@Alberth>good night Terkhen
17:08<andythenorth_>never occurred to me that it would be on ctrl
17:08<andythenorth_>and it's a pretty common shortcut :(
17:08<andythenorth_>some of the GUI sucks
17:09<andythenorth_>that's sad because of the wasted effort coding things
17:09<andythenorth_>nice features that are never found :|
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>the lock could get an extra row of buttons
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>below the large button a row with half-width buttons "invisible" and "lock", although i have no idea how an "invisible" icon should look like
17:13<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: do you want a toggle transparent/invisible, and a 3 state visible/use-toggle-state/x where 'x' means switching between vissible and toggle state?
17:13<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: an outline of the icon?
17:13<andythenorth_>invisible is an eye
17:13<andythenorth_>perhaps
17:14<@Alberth>but you need to see what you make invisible imho
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>what you turn invisible is in the icon of the large button
17:14<andythenorth_>yes
17:15<andythenorth_>the smaller buttons should be lock | opacity
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>it is just a generic button toggling between "shadow" and "invisible"
17:15<andythenorth_>I don't know what icon opacity would get
17:15<andythenorth_>currently the lack of icon for opacity isn't the biggest problem in the world
17:16<DanMacK>A shadow of a building///
17:25<andythenorth_>what's a good tramset?
17:25<andythenorth_>for PAX?
17:25<andythenorth_>my game needs one
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17:29<@Alberth>good night
17:30<andythenorth_>night Alberth
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17:31<@planetmaker>good night also
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17:36<andythenorth_>bed time
17:36<andythenorth_>good night
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18:39*DanMacK has a mind to take a stab at Cindini again
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18:46<Eddi|zuHause>www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/1078.jpg <-- "realism": good/bad? :p
18:46<DanMacK>Not as bad as the V200? on the Turntable
18:46<DanMacK>that was awwesome
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>(this is Hamburg main station, 1946)
18:48<DanMacK>1946... well, it was right after the war... Was DB short on passenger coaches?
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>that, and usage was extremely high, because cities were short on food supply
18:49<DanMacK>makes sense
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18:57<Eddi|zuHause>might have been a V160, don't remember, and not bothered to look up
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/950.jpg <-- that frequently happened to me in bridgebuilder
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19:58<Eddi|zuHause>www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/776.jpg <-- one could say "what an idyllic scene", if the picture wasn't titled "Summer in Nikolajew (Ukraine), 1943"
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20:51<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 25 00:00:17 2011