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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-25

---Logopened Mon Apr 25 00:00:17 2011
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01:57<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:26<@planetmaker> <-- better? worse? both on some parts?
03:27<@planetmaker>my artist disappearch, such I have to try myself :-S
03:28<andythenorth>in shape
03:28<@planetmaker>that's why I want to re-do them
03:28<andythenorth>texture could use...more love
03:28<@planetmaker>the current shap is ugly
03:29<@planetmaker>he, I feared that answer ;-)
03:29<@planetmaker>Even though every pixel is hand-crafted
03:30<@planetmaker>any idea how to improve it?
03:30<Zuu>In the "new" picture, there is a tree in the way to see how the far end looks like in the transition to flat land (with tunnel below)
03:30<Rubidium>maybe you should try to draw the rail and tunnel roof sloping down towards the middle of the tunnel. That way you could keep a bit of green at the top of the tunnel, I think... and then the very short tunnels might not look that badly aligned anymore
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03:37<@planetmaker>updated, Zuu
03:38<Zuu>planetmaker: The tunnel?
03:38<@planetmaker>the image
03:38<Zuu>I've lost track of where I found that topic
03:38<@planetmaker>I'm not a quick drawer
03:39<@planetmaker>hm... painter. whatever :-P
03:39<Zuu>Oh, it wasn't a topic - it was from here in IRC :-)
03:40<@planetmaker>have another coffee ;-)
03:47<Zuu>haven't had a single one yet
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04:20<Zuu>Hmm, so coffe in the sun on the balcony :-)
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04:21<kamnet>Good morning all
04:22*Alberth joins Zuu
04:22<@Alberth>hi kamnet
04:23<kamnet>How is everybody?
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04:24<@planetmaker>moin all together :-)
04:24<@planetmaker>sun and balcony and coffee.... good choice. I'll be there, too, in a minute ;-)
04:25<kamnet>Lucky you. It's been nothing but severe thunderstorms and tornadoes here all weekend.
04:25<Zuu>planetmaker: Just figured out you also have one in south :-)
04:25<@planetmaker>yup. And you could even know it ;-)
04:26<@planetmaker>but it wasn't big enough for us all to have breakfast there back then
04:29<kamnet>The rain from Spain falls mainly in Kentucky using 600 gallon buckets.
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05:21<andythenorth>Alberth: morning
05:21<ZirconiumX>hello all
05:21<ZirconiumX>hello andythenorth
05:21<ZirconiumX>sorry about yesterday
05:22<@Alberth>moin andythenorth
05:22<@Alberth>hello ZirconiumX
05:22<ZirconiumX>hello Alberth - er I mean sir
05:23<@Alberth>ZirconiumX: it's ok, we all make mistakes
05:23<andythenorth>ZirconiumX: you know that site's satire?
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05:24<ZirconiumX>anyway - can we just leave that topic - I've said sorry
05:24*ZirconiumX dicides to change the topic
05:25<ZirconiumX>D* does appear to be faster than A*
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05:25*ZirconiumX knows this - he made a 'course' for 4 algorithms
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05:27<ZirconiumX>A* got a path in 21 iterations, Djikstra's got a unique path in 21 iterations, Felicitus' unusual pathfinder got a path in 24 iterations, and D* lite) got a path in 14
05:27<k-man>how big does a town have to be to accept goods?
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05:28<ZirconiumX>k-man - I'd say around the 1,000 mark
05:28<k-man>thanks ZirconiumX
05:28<ZirconiumX>but - I'm a noob
05:28*ZirconiumX checks the wiki
05:28<k-man>and I put a station on the edge of a large town, but it does not seem to accept goods
05:28<k-man>is that normal
05:29<andythenorth>k-man: there's no fixed size
05:29<ZirconiumX>it has to be near the center of the town
05:29<andythenorth>depends on the buildings in the town
05:29<ZirconiumX>ty andythenorth
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05:33<@planetmaker>k-man: you can check what each house accepts. It goes in steps of 1/8. A station accepts a cargo if there's at least 8/8 acceptance in its covered area
05:33<k-man>how do I check? click on the house?
05:34<@planetmaker>query tool. the ? in the main toolbar
05:34<ZirconiumX>and then click on the house
05:35<@planetmaker>(right most icon)
05:36<k-man>so do I need a total of 8/8 goods (sum of multiple houses?) or one house that has 8/8?
05:37<@planetmaker>total of many houses is sufficient
05:37<k-man>thanks planetmaker
05:38<@planetmaker>mind that houses change, though
05:38<@planetmaker>so you want actually a bit more in order to be sure the station keeps accepting goods
05:38<andythenorth>or use FIRS :P
05:39<@Alberth>I normally hover with a station over the town, and watch what is accepted
05:40<k-man>Alberth, ah, interesting, thanks
05:40<@planetmaker>so do I :-)
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05:42<k-man>what is firs?
05:43<@planetmaker>a newgrf. But IMHO it doesn't solve your problem ;-)
05:44<@planetmaker>it's part of my favourite newgrfs, but it's not a newgrf a beginner should start with
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05:45<andythenorth>"FIRS - Beginner's Edition" ?
05:45<@planetmaker>still missing, aka know 'economies' :-P
05:45<andythenorth>FIRS is what you do *after* you've played all default climates && PBI
05:45<andythenorth>FIRS is to stop the game getting boring when you've exhausted other options
05:46<ZirconiumX>FIRS is a bunch of trees
05:46*V453000 doesnt feel like the game is getting boring ;)
05:47*andythenorth ponders redrawing textile mill a bit more
05:50<Mazur>Windmills would be nice as secondary industries.
05:52<andythenorth>Mazur: there's one in FIRS
05:53<Mazur>Cutting wood, grinding wheat, pumping water... Used to be 21 functions for them.
05:53<andythenorth>the FIRS one mills grain
05:53<Mazur>Yes, a modern one.
05:53<Mazur>Oh, have not seen that one yet.
05:54<Mazur>I guess V would be happy with a malt-mill.
05:55<@Alberth>andythenorth: hmm, I seem to have skipped the PBI step
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05:57<Mazur>A square windmill.
05:57<Mazur>How quaint.
06:00<@Alberth>wind in OpenTTD comes from just one direction
06:00<Mazur>That would be helpful.
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06:04<andythenorth>we ignore the question of how it turns :P
06:06<andythenorth>presumably the top bit rotates
06:06<andythenorth>maybe a little redrawing is needed :)
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06:09<@planetmaker>Alberth: did you ever look at the wind direction(s)?
06:09<@planetmaker>it comes from about 3 or 4 different directions actually
06:10<@planetmaker>depending on which graphics you look at
06:10<@planetmaker>smoke. wind sock, water are just three different ones ;-)
06:10<@planetmaker>iirc there are one or two more, but I don't recall
06:10<andythenorth>flag somewhere?
06:10<@Alberth>around trains there is no wind at all :)
06:11<@planetmaker>smoke ^
06:11<andythenorth>now I have to draw a round windmill :(
06:11<Mazur>/usr/local/games/autostart/ In member function ‘virtual EventState MainWindow::OnKeyPress(uint16, uint16)’:
06:11<Mazur>/usr/local/games/autostart/ error: ‘PlaceLandBlockInfo’ was not declared in this scope
06:12<Mazur>Rather unexpected.
06:12<@Alberth>smoke does not stay over the train if the wind comes from one side
06:12<@planetmaker>Mazur: tried make clean && make ?
06:13<Mazur>It was a clean co, no patches, with (auto-)start
06:13<Mazur>Had completely removed the old directory to ensure that.
06:13<@planetmaker>autostart only updates, doesn't necessarily clean
06:14<Mazur>It will be clean if the target directory is missing.
06:14<@Alberth>rerun ./configure ?
06:15<andythenorth>yeah, I can convert it to post mill maybe
06:15<Mazur>No change.
06:15<@planetmaker>does a post mill grind mail into pulp?
06:16<@Alberth>mail is one form of paper :)
06:16<Mazur>frequently polluted with plastic.
06:16<@Alberth>Mazur: so where did PlaceLandBlockInfo go?
06:16<Mazur>I do not know.
06:17<Mazur>I only know the checkout will not compile as is.
06:17<Mazur>On linux.
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06:17<Mazur>Linux quad #1 SMP Thu Feb 17 15:00:46 UTC 2011 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
06:19<Mazur>toolbar_gui.cpp:static CallBackFunction PlaceLandBlockInfo()
06:19<Mazur>I suppose that is the function itself.
06:20<@SmatZ>Mazur: boooh
06:20<@SmatZ>Mazur: how did you configure?
06:20<@Alberth>static :)
06:21<Mazur>I did not configure anything spoecial: ./configure
06:21<@SmatZ>can you paste config.cache somewhere?
06:22<@Alberth>static functions are not visible outside their own .cpp file, that's why it cannot be found from main_gui.cpp
06:22<@Terkhen>is it vanilla or patched?
06:22*Alberth bets patched
06:23*Mazur collects,
06:24<Mazur>If it was patched I would not be talking here.
06:24<Mazur>I would firest give myself a "pets" and unpatch it.
06:26<Mazur>Just check your own toolbar_gui.cpp (for patches, too.
06:27<Mazur>Or better yet, check the one in trunk.
06:27<k-man>is it best to have a train waiting for production? or let a station fill up before a train arrives?
06:28<Mazur>Depends on what you define as "best"./
06:28<@Alberth>Mazur: in r22375, there is no PlaceLandBlockInfo() outside toolbar_gui.cpp
06:28*SmatZ grepped with the same result
06:29<@Terkhen>and I can compile r22375 without problems
06:29<Mazur> case 'G':
06:29<Mazur> PlaceLandBlockInfo();
06:29<Mazur> break;
06:29<@SmatZ> case GHK_CHAT: // smart chat; send to team if any, otherwise to all
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06:29<@SmatZ>Mazur: you have very outdated checkout, it seems
06:29<@Alberth>^ that line is #378 in main_gui.cpp, trunk
06:29<@SmatZ>like, one without hotkeys
06:30<@SmatZ>Mazur: are you sure it's r22375?
06:30<@SmatZ>eg. svn info src/main_gui.cpp
06:30<Mazur>svn co -r r22375 svn://
06:30*andythenorth is sad about windmills :|
06:30<andythenorth>needs to be round or octagonal, with a tapering (conical) profile
06:31<@Terkhen>Mazur: what is the output of svn status?
06:31<Mazur>Path: src/main_gui.cpp
06:31<Mazur>Name: main_gui.cpp
06:31<Mazur>URL: svn://
06:31<Mazur>Repository Root: svn://
06:31<Mazur>Repository UUID: 6aa0318a-3be1-0310-93fa-89fd2396df07
06:31<Mazur>Revision: 22375
06:31<Mazur>Node Kind: file
06:31<Mazur>Schedule: normal
06:31<Mazur>Last Changed Author: rubidium
06:31<Mazur>Last Changed Rev: 22362
06:31<k-man>Mazur, is there a down side to not having a train waiting at all times at a station?
06:31<Mazur>Last Changed Date: 2011-04-22 17:54:16 +0200 (Fri, 22 Apr 2011)
06:32-!-Mazur was kicked from #openttd by SmatZ [User terminated!]
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06:32<Mazur>Text Last Updated: 2011-04-25 12:30:50 +0200 (Mon, 25 Apr 2011)
06:32<Mazur>Checksum: 3e755bda0948e30429e2e9892d69dd35
06:32<@SmatZ>Mazur: use paste service
06:33<@SmatZ>[12:30:17] <Mazur> svn co -r r22375 svn://
06:33<@SmatZ>I executed that, and got correct checkout
06:33<k-man>how can I convince a town to let me build a station?
06:33<@SmatZ>maybe you are compiling in a different directory
06:34<Mazur>Looking into that, SmatZ.
06:34<@SmatZ>k-man: bribe it, or better try building trees to increase town rating
06:35<Mazur>Clean compile outside of autostart.
06:35<Mazur>Thank you all for your help.
06:35<Mazur>I'll go figure what went wrtong there and fix it.
06:35<k-man>SmatZ, thanks, can I see my rating somehow?
06:37<@SmatZ>k-man: click on the town label, click "Local authority"
06:37<@SmatZ>the rating of your company will be shown in the newly opened window
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06:37<k-man>oh - appaling! hehe
06:37<k-man>no wonder they won't let me build
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06:49<Zuu>k-man: If you don't have a train waiting at the station, the cargo wait time at the station will not be counted towards transport time.
06:49<Zuu>Also you will probably need less vehicles/trains etc. => more profit.
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06:49<Zuu>However, your station rating can drop.
06:49<@planetmaker>which could mean less profit ;-)
06:50<Zuu>As you get less cargo.
06:50<Zuu>But it also quite depend (I think) on if you have monopoly or if you compete with another player on the same cargo.
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07:02<k-man>what are the keys for lowering or raising the ground?
07:03<@Alberth>q and w
07:03<@planetmaker>on the keyboard
07:03<Markk>e and w
07:03<@planetmaker>hm... what != where. Damn. Fail
07:03<@planetmaker>I need coffee
07:04*planetmaker goes makes tea ;-)
07:05<@Alberth>green tea is just as good :)
07:05<Zuu>I really never learnt the up/down keys, so I just press some keys at the bottom row untill I find it :-)
07:05<@planetmaker>I guess I'll have a Darjeeling
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07:06*Zuu got some real chinese green tea - didn't like it very much
07:06<Zuu>Some of the western green teas are okay though.
07:07<k-man>its been so long since I played openttd - but its all coming back to me now
07:07*planetmaker just got the idea to add the actual shortcut key to the tooltips
07:07*planetmaker also got Japanese green tea
07:07*Zuu remembers an idea he though of last night
07:08<Zuu>Put the transparency options in advanced settings, and add hotkeys to bring up the advanced settings with a specific category unfolded.
07:09<@planetmaker>that window IMHO is too big
07:09<Zuu>It might need some work though to get the transparency settings in advanced settings as the structure is quite different.
07:09<Zuu>But it might end up being just too much work.
07:10<@planetmaker>logically they c/should go there IMHO
07:10<Zuu>Though the idea to add the ability to define hotkeys for opening specific sections in the advanced settings might be interesting still.
07:10<@planetmaker>yep, true
07:11<@Alberth>the 'full details' and 'full animation' can safely go to adv settings, you never need them during the game
07:12<@Alberth>the other ones change too often imho
07:13<Zuu>Sounds okay to me.
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07:21<andythenorth>I would leave most of transparency gui untouched apart from extra options
07:22<andythenorth>e.g. station signs etc
07:26<Ammler>[13:12] <Alberth> the other ones change too often imho <-- you do, if your cpu usage rises, those are the first you disable, aren't?
07:27<Ammler>ah well, quoted the wrong line :-)
07:28<@Alberth>I switch of full animation immediately because it annoys me, and full details never
07:29<@Alberth>and I never have trouble with my CPU other than during a compile :)
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but changing once during the game is "not often"
07:30<k-man>how do you turn off new vehicle notifications?
07:30<@Alberth>news paper or offers?
07:30<andythenorth>can someone actually test whether full animation affects CPU?
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>k-man: the blue window can't be disabled, and the newspaper can be disabled in the news settings (click and hold the newspaper icon)
07:33<andythenorth>in my unscientific test, full animation makes more difference than I expected
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07:34<andythenorth>it's about 5% if there is a large body of water on the screen
07:34<andythenorth>and about 2% if there is nothing with a colour cycle
07:34<andythenorth>the actual % varies by window size I think
07:35<andythenorth>my openttd is currently using 19% cpu if full animation is turned off
07:35<k-man>Eddi|zuHause, thanks
07:35<k-man>how do you make a co-op game?
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>k-man: one starts a multiplayer game, and the other joins the same company
07:36<andythenorth>full detail appears to make no difference to cpu usage
07:37<andythenorth>none of them cause the game to run appreciably slower or faster
07:37<andythenorth>and the measure for turning them off should be performance, not cpu usage
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07:37<k-man>thanks Eddi|zuHause
07:37<k-man>seems good
07:37<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: but it is something you need direct access
07:38<andythenorth>Ammler: nah not really
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: why?
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: when they are client settings, you can set them from the main menu, and won't be changed when loading a game
07:39<Ammler>if cpu usage is at 100%, it would be not that easy to navigate through 100 windows to disable those
07:39<andythenorth>Ammler: on my OS, you get a bigger change from resizing the window
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07:40<andythenorth>if 'full animation' is some kind of important panic button setting, I think there are problems
07:40<Ammler>why else do you disable it?
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: sometimes it's just annoying
07:41<andythenorth>because you have visual field disturbance from changing pixels?
07:41<andythenorth>matter of taste?
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07:41<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. when some NuTracks coder failed to replace the proper pixels, and the houses just start flickering...
07:42<andythenorth>make it an advanced setting :P
07:42<Ammler>hehe, maybe it needs a settings, where the settings should be displayed :-)
07:42<andythenorth>'configure everything'
07:42<andythenorth>ideally with xml :P
07:42<Ammler>hmm, not a worst idea, a kind of "favorite settings"
07:42<andythenorth>everyone can make their own menus
07:42<andythenorth>forget design
07:42<andythenorth>let the users do it
07:43<andythenorth>add an 'interfaces' category to bananas
07:43<Ammler>you don't need to share it
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: like i said, when making full animation a proper setting, you can change it from the main menu before loading the game. you can't do that in the current form
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>that's (imho) a better solution than "panic button" style...
07:44<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: that is for people who disable it because they don't like it
07:44<Ammler>I speak for the people who disable it because of cpu usage :-)
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you either know that you are loading a potentially dangerous game before hand, or you get thrown out of multiplayer, or you can hit the pause button
07:45<Ammler>and those disable it after they joined a MP game for example
07:45<andythenorth>what the game really needs is a lolcat generator
07:45<andythenorth>it won't succeed without lulz
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: in any case, you have plenty of time to change the settings then
07:45<andythenorth>if we just added all this stuff, openttd might actually succeed
07:45*andythenorth goes back to drawing windmills
07:45<Ammler>If you get kicked, disabling it wouldn't allow to join again, I would guess
07:45*andythenorth might tilt at them even
07:46<Ammler>not that much influence
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: why not? you're not banned or anything
07:46<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: if you get a kick because you cpu doesn't catch up
07:46<andythenorth>you can't pause on MP either
07:47<andythenorth>I see the point
07:47<andythenorth>leave it where it is?
07:47<Ammler>you have _real_ cpu issues, which disabling those wouldn't help, imo
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07:47*andythenorth thinks leave it
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: if 102% or 98% doesn't make a difference, then i don't see the point
07:48<Ammler>andythenorth: better move them and allow "favorite settings" :-P
07:48<andythenorth>that menu needs some stuff in it, or newbies won't think it's a proper game
07:49<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: I would rather think around 80-90%
07:49<Ammler>where you get some laggs sometimes
07:49<andythenorth>a bigger CPU change would come from 'select all ships, send to depot, scrap'
07:50<Ammler>andythenorth: those are next steps or rising pbs time
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but at that point you can do 4 clicks instead of 2...
07:50<andythenorth>make it a hotkey
07:50<andythenorth>if you care enough
07:51<Ammler>a hotkey gui would be nice
07:51<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: true
07:52<Ammler>the issue is just, if you hide it in the adv. settings menu, you don't change those anymore
07:54<k-man>so with the new path signals, when do you use those?
07:54<Ammler>speaking about cpu usage, you can also remove the "performance hint" on station spread, which is quite useless anymore
07:56<+michi_cc>fonsinchen: Got a reply to your post. And regarding the date of some commits, yes, I did a first try back in 2009, but I maneuvered myself into a dead end back then and abandoned the idea for quite some time. On the next try, I salvaged what seemed useful from that attempt, which is why some commits have such an old time stamp.
07:56<fonsinchen>I see.
07:57<+michi_cc>fonsinchen: That second attempt wasn't really what I wanted either :) so YACD is actually try number 3.
07:57<fonsinchen>It might have been interesting to talk about it anyway. You could have saved me a lot of work.
07:58<fonsinchen>Your routing algorithm is in fact better than mine.
07:58<fonsinchen>No measuring of capacities, near instant reaction to changes. Nice, really...
07:59<+michi_cc>Your automatic order stuff came in just at the right time as I was pondering how to identify route links for non non-stop orders, so thanks for that :)
08:00<fonsinchen>I guess there are some corner cases where one could trick it into failing. After all there is a reason why people have spent so much time trying to solve the multi-commodity flow problem.
08:00<fonsinchen>However, I can't find any right now.
08:01<+michi_cc>What I was really struggling with was the destination generation algorithm, where I had the right idea not that far back, where you'd already done most of the work on cargodist. Before that, there wasn't much more than "somehow have fixed destinations and do something with YAPF for routing" to talk about :)
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08:08<k-man>is there some way in a co-op game to cheat and get more money?
08:09<Ammler>setup aircraft route with 1/1 spead
08:11<@planetmaker>k-man: in multiplayer you cannot cheat. Not at all
08:11<k-man>ok, thanks
08:13<Ammler>(I consider the aircraft route as cheat ;-)
08:13<Ammler>2 airports gives you more money already as you are able to build
08:15<SpComb>how much do cd and yacd differ in terms of a) generating cargo packets with some destination b) getting those cargo packets to the destinations?
08:16<@Alberth>k-man: path signals are useful if you want to allow several trains in a block, eg at station entrances
08:18<k-man>Alberth, but you don't use them everywhere right? just at that entrance?
08:18<k-man>for long runs along the track, you still use normal signals?
08:19*andythenorth uses path signals everywhere
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08:21<@Terkhen>I use path signals on crossings and junctions, normal signals everywhere else
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08:24<+michi_cc>SpComb: Much. Cargodist doesn't generate destinations, it "just" distributes the cargo over all traveled routes. YACD on the other does generate fixed destinations, but doesn't really distribute the cargo between all routes but will only use those that actually lead to the destination.
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08:25<SpComb>yeah, I recalled cd was fairly dynamic about where cargo wanted to go
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08:30<@planetmaker>Hehe. Pathzilla complains that there are no vehicles which transport old or diamonds. It is correct ;-)
08:31<@planetmaker>but it probably would have sufficed to not notice that for every mine, but for each cargo only once.
08:31<@planetmaker>or rather s/mine/route/
08:31<@planetmaker>^ Zuu
08:34<Zuu>I didn't write Pathzilla, that was zutty
08:34<@planetmaker>oh, sorry :-)
08:35<andythenorth>drawing octagonal sloping things is...challenge
08:35<Zuu>Though it would have been nice if I would have made Pathzilla as it is nice to see when people apply optimization/planning ideas in an AI. :-)
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08:41<@planetmaker>well, CluelessPlus is doing bus services well :-)
08:42<@planetmaker>but it really could do with the other modes of transport :-)
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08:43<andythenorth>new windmill - upper part is unshaded
08:44<andythenorth>old for comparison...
08:44<@planetmaker>those who are (currently, after 6 years) more profitable also use planes. I guess the one train of AdmiralAI does not make most of its profit
08:45<@planetmaker>is there an option to add ever so slightly more noise to its 'tower', andythenorth ?
08:45<@planetmaker>The design of the new is much nicer
08:46<@Alberth>a 'zzoeff' sound :)
08:48<andythenorth>planetmaker: 'unshaded' ;)
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08:58<@Terkhen>andythenorth: what model are you using?
09:01<@planetmaker>:-) NoCAB just build a ship route for wood over 1/4 of the map :-) And it works nicely
09:01<@planetmaker>though TransAI's hover crafts with passengers are 2.5 x as profitable...
09:02<k-man>what is near end/far end/middle in the orders?
09:04<@planetmaker>try it. It's obvious :-)
09:04<@planetmaker>but not really important
09:04<@planetmaker>the place within a (larger) station where the train stops
09:05<k-man>oh, I see, thanks
09:08<@planetmaker>hehe. AdmiralAI built a road route over my coast tile test area...
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09:16<LordAro>planetmaker: are you testing aroai also? ;)
09:18<@planetmaker>It's currently not active. But I guess I could add that to the list as well. I recently removed a few which crashed too often or which spammed my console with pointless un-caught exceptions
09:20<@planetmaker>But I don't quite remember which those were.
09:20<LordAro>crashed too often? not aroai i hope... :)
09:23<@planetmaker>I added it to my default list now, so it will be used the next game(s) I start
09:23<@planetmaker>which I do a lot for testing newgrfs
09:23<@planetmaker>and AIs just have a chance to use them concurrently
09:23<@planetmaker>and to do the work for me to build things ;-)
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>something i noticed, but didn't test in trunk yet: when using railtypes grf, and turning bridges invisible, the railtype overlay over the bridge gets transparent, not invisible
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09:42<LordAro>planetmaker: :)
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09:45<@planetmaker>yes, that's the case, Eddi|zuHause
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09:46<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well, it's kinda inconsistent
09:46<k-man>is there some way to see which stations have the most product waiting at them? ie, underserviced stations
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: also while at it: tram catenary stays visible
09:47<@Alberth>k-man in the main gui toolbar, you can get a list of stations
09:47<@Alberth>you can sort on rating or so
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>(rail catenary as well)
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09:51<k-man>thanks Alberth
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>cargo value
09:51<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but they have their own setting, the catenary
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>not sure how that is calculated...
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but bridge invisibility should override catenary visibility on bridge
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>anyone got a station rating grf yet?
09:53<@Terkhen>I don't know any
10:02<@planetmaker>nor do I know
10:03<@Terkhen>what changes to station rating could be interesting?
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: most annoying is the "must have always a train waiting". imho "a train every 30 days" should yield no lower than 50% rating
10:04<@Terkhen>sounds logical
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>other people want the speed influence disabled
10:04<@Terkhen>I usually don't pay much attention to ratings :)
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: they kinda get important when cargo disappears at a transfer station :)
10:06<@Terkhen>hmm... if callbacks weren't so complicated I would take a look at it for ogfx+ industries
10:06<@Terkhen>but I'm already quite confused with custom chains :P
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>i might get annoyed enough to try myself
10:06<LordAro>question: with mercurial queues, whats the easiest/best way to update trunk?
10:07<@Terkhen>hg qpop -a && hg fetch
10:07<@Terkhen>then you push each patch and check if there are rejects
10:08<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: that would be a welcome patch for opengfx+ industries :)
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i think it warrants a separate grf
10:11<LordAro>Terkhen: before or after doing hg pull/update?
10:11<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: ok
10:11<@Terkhen>LordAro: depends
10:12<@Terkhen>I always keep an untouched clone of trunk and clone it for my queue repos
10:12<LordAro>what does hg fetch do, exactly?
10:12<@Terkhen>more or less "hg pull -u"
10:13<@Terkhen>you need to activate it as an extension, though
10:13<@Terkhen>so just use hg pull -u
10:13<LordAro>i see, thanks
10:14<LordAro>and yes, i need to get into the habit of cloning more - i started with svn, you see :)
10:15<LordAro>s/started/started coding/
10:15<@Terkhen>I did the same with svn; I copied my clean checkout whenever I wanted to code something different
10:16<@Alberth>I started doing bzr to make such copies :)
10:17*LordAro reorganises his checkouts/clones
10:18<@Alberth>have one clone that pulls from, and use that to make local clones
10:18<k-man>how do you close all windows?
10:18<@Alberth>delete button
10:19<@Alberth>euhm, backspace
10:19<k-man>on osx
10:19<@Alberth>install linux :p
10:20<@Alberth>k-man: it is not entirely 'all windows', if you pinned them, they will stay
10:21<@Alberth>and there are a few ones that always stay, like the main gui toolbar, and the main gui :)
10:26<k-man>thanks, Alberth
10:26<k-man>anyway, time for bed, thanks all for your help
10:26<@Alberth>LordAro: how is the readme going?
10:27<LordAro>sort of stalled, i got into 32bp again :)
10:27<LordAro>...and my exams start in about 3 weeks,. :(
10:28<@Alberth>so 2 months at least
10:30<LordAro>afraid so :(
10:30<LordAro>won't stop you from working on it though :P
10:31<@Alberth>If I start, it'd be finished in a week :)
10:32<@Alberth>as long as you finish before 1.2 :)
10:32<@Alberth>if you decide to quit, please let me know
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10:45<Ammler>Alberth: what you expect from a readme, not in describtion or parameter gui?
10:48<Ammler>I mean, if you think it further, there is no need for ingame readme viewer anymore...
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10:49<Ammler>rather show the readme on webstite bananas
10:49<@Alberth> section 3, 4, 6, 7 ?
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: a readme can have vital information like the DBSetXL readme on how to assemble certain trains, or information about "realism"
10:50<@Alberth>Ammler: not everybody has a live internet connection all the time
10:50<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: yes, next step is making a html viewer, and then pdf viewer?
10:50<@planetmaker>like "get 2nd gen only when wagon speed limits is enabled" :-P
10:50<@planetmaker>I wonder whether I EVER saw the 2nd gen dbset wagons
10:50<@planetmaker>must be years ago
10:51<Ammler>Alberth: the readme can be viewed with your favorite viewer, where you also can click a link etc.
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: technically it's the 3rd gen. and it was fine until openttd implemented wagon lifetime :p
10:51<Ammler>a openttd readme viewer is only useable if you get there :-)
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>then the nasty bug turned up where the old wagons disappear, but the new ones don't appear
10:52<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: well... but you can still have 'vehicles never expire', or how does that work there?
10:52<Ammler>and c&p or links is a nono in openttd, afaik
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, that should work
10:52<@Alberth>Ammler: you overestimate that people know where the data is stored, know they need a tar file, know how to open a tar file, know how to start a reader
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but the dbset readme also recommends to turn that off :p
10:53<@planetmaker>as long as we don't have a proper-length day length, there's no fun in having vehicles expire ;-)
10:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: of course
10:53<Ammler>Alberth: for the others, just expand the description field
10:53<@planetmaker>I should not comment on things like having the newgrf behave differently with vehicle availability as a function on settings like wagon lifetime or wagon speed limits ;-)
10:53<@Alberth>but the window is already too big
10:53<Ammler>maybe also a seperate license and credits field
10:53<@planetmaker>but it's just broken by design to handle these
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well the idea is that the other wagons are just redundant without speed limit, as it's the only difference
10:54<@Alberth>Ammler: is that info even in the newgrf?
10:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: even then :-) They look different which might be reason enough
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: only a few look different
10:55<@planetmaker>and possibly different capacity
10:55<@planetmaker>or not?
10:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, capacity is the same
10:55<Ammler>well, but it should in that case not be a readme viewer, just an additional info file viewer, maybe configureable with action14
10:55<@planetmaker>he, then 15t is not much
10:55<Ammler>else you have some infos double, specially the part about parameters
10:55<Ammler>or links
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: 15t is only the _very_ first vehicles, the next ones do show up even without speedlimits
10:56<@planetmaker>ah, ok :-)
10:56<@planetmaker>I guess I didn't play with that set for a looong time
10:56<Ammler>lazy authors can still define the readme as info file
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>they have 25t (wood, steel), 30t (oil, goods) and 40t (coal, ore) capacity
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: an action14-readme-extension and grfcodec spits out a .html file?
10:58<Ammler>[16:54] <Alberth> Ammler: is that info even in the newgrf? <-- could be added as a14?
10:58<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: imo, everything openttd shows should/could be part of the newgrf
10:58<Ammler>no file viewer at all
10:59<Ammler>if not with a8, then with 114
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but as a grf author having info on a webpage independent from the grf would be useful
10:59<Ammler>yep, so you want a html viewer?
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. if i offer my grf on a website for download, having an additional readme website
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>and there still are ttdpatch users
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>who wouldn't get to the builtin readme
11:00<@planetmaker>those can also read a readme.txt
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but then i have two files
11:00<Ammler>yes, but the readme does repeat infos also already in the grf, like title and parameters
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: which have to be kept up to date separately
11:01<Ammler>so this should not be part of the file showed in the readme, so you still neeed to maintain 2 different files
11:01<Ammler>then you cuold as good add those to the newgrf itself
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11:02<Ammler>I would not like FIRS removing parameter description from readme just to avoid that
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that's why i suggested autogenerating a .html file from the grf-doc
11:03<Ammler>sounds nice
11:03<@Alberth>we can do a search for info.txt first or whatever
11:04<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: or simple using rst
11:04<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: just copy the file out of the .tar
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11:04<@Alberth>Ammler: windows has no rst software
11:05<Ammler>Alberth: the effort to make a file viewer in openttd is not worth
11:05<Ammler>easier to add more info to a8/14
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: this is about having readme in the action14. then openttd could display the action14 data, while external viewers could display the (autogenerated) html from the tar
11:06<Ammler>and the author can still generate with that info a readme for his webpage and readme etc.
11:06<Ammler>else you need to maintain a lot infos doulbe
11:06<@Alberth>feel free to create a post at a forum and ask the poeple that actually want this functionality
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>and there's still the issue that bananas download shows a "proper" description, which later isn't available anymore in the newgrf settings. so valuable information is just thrown away
11:08<@Alberth>personally, I don't really care how the info is delivered, I just think there should be more info available for a user
11:08<Ammler>yes, that is another issue, bananas should also use the info from the grf too
11:09<Ammler>specially title
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: you have my argument backwards
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the bananas info is already there, in a machine readable and openttd displayable format. it is just thrown away
11:10<Ammler>the bananas desc is of no need for openttd
11:10<Ammler>that is just to make "advertising"
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11:10<Ammler>if you once downloaded the grf, that info is useless
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, it is not
11:10<Ammler>so it is fine as it is imo
11:10<Ammler>but bananas should have the infos from the grf
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>the difference is that old grfs won't contain new descriptions. but perfectly fine descriptions are already there.
11:13<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: the only description a old grf should have is "please use the new version"
11:13<Ammler>(or the grf description)
11:14<Ammler>I mean, why should I take the effort to make a nice description for a old version, if I simply could release a new version with a14 etc.?
11:15<@planetmaker>Adding that is indeed not difficult
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but why should i make a widespread grf incompatible without any functional changes?
11:16<Ammler>what does make it incompatible?
11:16<Ammler>a14 doesn't
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: different md5sum == incompatible
11:16<Ammler>who told you that?
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>the game, every time i make a few modifications.
11:17<Ammler>ah, you mean that new "security feature" of 1.1.0?
11:17<Ammler>you really don't use scenario_developer or how that is called?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: it's not about what _I_ use
11:19<Ammler>well, I can just tell what I do or would like, I know, you and some others here are capable to know what is best for others ;-)
11:20<Ammler>the most sucking features are result of such silly thoughts...
11:21<Ammler>after all, this is a opensource game, you don't need to sell it
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: my point was: there is already plenty of information in a displayable format, but it isn't displayed at the right place
11:23<Ammler>there was a reason to keep different infos for bananas and grf gui, wasn't?
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>i never heard one
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>just that the grf gui is older than bananas
11:24<Ammler>bananas is able to read the grfid from it, so it wouldn't have beend hard to also get the desc from there
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11:24<Ammler>bananas desc is for advertising, grf desc for using :-)
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>the grf desc (from action 8) has some kind of length limitation
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen useful information in there, just author crediting and stuff
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>while in the bananas description is often longer and with valuable information
11:26<Ammler>you think, the bananas descriptions have?
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12:07<@Alberth>(17:24:04) Ammler: bananas is able to read the grfid from it, so it wouldn't have beend hard to also get the desc from there <-- openttd has no storage for that info
12:08<@Alberth>if anywhere, it should be part of the file that gets copied/downloaded/shared, etc
12:09<Ammler>Alberth: bananas
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes, in the .tar, which brings us back to reading an external text file
12:09<@Alberth>bananas is not storage for openttd
12:10<Ammler>why is there need for a text file which everyone formats differentely instead using a proper specified a14 properity?
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12:10<Ammler>afaik, the grf is also part of the tar :-)
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12:11<@Alberth>Ammler: isn't that the question started with?
12:12<Ammler>I just think, the need for readme viewer is depreciated with a14
12:12<@Alberth>existing newgrf have no a14
12:12<Ammler>why do you care about existing grfs, you don't when you make gameplay changes
12:13<Ammler>and existing grfs would also need that readme
12:13<@Alberth>did I make a gameplay change?
12:13<@Alberth>one that broke newgrfs?
12:13<Ammler>you = devs :-)
12:14<Ammler>but anyway, authors need to make a info file, so they could as easy add a14
12:14<@Alberth>Ammler: it is more a bunch of individuals that happen to have commit access to svn
12:15<Ammler>so the argument about existing grfs is invalid, unless you want to support viewing of exisint files
12:15<Ammler>then you need to support 10(?) different formats
12:16<Ammler>and html, and pdf and...
12:16<@Alberth>where does one store recommended vehicle sets for eg FIRS in a14?
12:17<Ammler>in a new custom a14 properity "supported vehicle sets"
12:17<@Alberth>or explanation of what ecomomies will exist, and when to play which one
12:17<Ammler>maybe with direct download possibility :-)
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12:18<Ammler>Alberth: that is something you can read from the homepage or the readme
12:18<@Alberth>from where? the file I already have?
12:18<@Alberth>how do you read the readme at a plain windows system
12:18<Ammler>or from another a14 properity
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12:19<@Alberth>so every newgrf has its own set of custom properties?
12:20<@Alberth>how is that better?
12:20<Ammler>hmm, why is there need for own?
12:20<@Alberth>(18:18:43) Ammler: or from another a14 properity <-- how many other newgrf have economies like FIRS?
12:21<Ammler>Alberth: the difference is, you don't need to implement and support a file viewer
12:22<Ammler>IMO, quite major :-)
12:22<Zuu>If you go for a readme file reader solution I think it will be easier to adopt to other type of bananas content than NewGRFs.
12:22<@planetmaker>Ammler: a plain text file is far more versatile than any bananas or newgrf property ever can be.
12:23<@Alberth>and quite trivial, as we can already load arbitrary files from tars
12:23<Ammler>planetmaker: that makes it worse, not better
12:23<Ammler>as you have no spec
12:23<@planetmaker>I can only say: how can it make it worse?
12:24<@planetmaker>No readme available vs. support for plain text readmes
12:24<@Alberth>Ammler: you have custom information for every newgrf, you need to keep that somewhere, as part of the distributed newgrf file
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12:24<@planetmaker>where is there anything detrimental?
12:25<@Alberth>readme files are by definition intended for human readers, they have superior parsing capabilities to machines
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12:26<@planetmaker>btw, also by offering ingame support for plain text readmes, none of the existing readmes or inforation channels about newgrfs becomes invalid, Ammler
12:26<Ammler>planetmaker: you think, it is useful to read the FIRS readme with openttd?
12:26<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes
12:27<Ammler>so why a14?
12:27<@planetmaker>e.g. for parameter description. But a readme can also give hints on 'how to play' - where would that go?
12:27<@planetmaker>a14 is directly newgrf-related. The readme is player information
12:28<@planetmaker>thus a14 -> openttd. readme -> player
12:28<Ammler>hmm, I would say, that would be a guide or homepage for
12:28<Zuu>parameter description is also things are useful for "everyday use" while the readme is mostly useful as extended help for new users.
12:28<@planetmaker>you can still have that.
12:28<Ammler>same reason the wiki readme for ogx is that ugly
12:29<@planetmaker>Ammler: and when the readme only tells the reader: Please go to ... for more information including graphical introduction
12:29<@planetmaker>well, yes
12:30<@planetmaker>ingame it would be read far more
12:30<@planetmaker>as most get things via online content. Then ingame is the only means of communication author <-> player
12:30<@Alberth>Ammler: you have to type the URL manually to get to a home page
12:31<Ammler>Alberth: yep, so you need a readme without links
12:31<@Alberth>which beats no simple way to access that information
12:32<Ammler>it means you need to compile a special info file, you can't use the readme
12:32<Ammler>so you can as good add it as a14 :-)
12:33<@Alberth>how can you not use the readme?
12:33<@planetmaker>Ammler: the normal readme which every project on the DevZone has will suffice for this
12:33<Ammler>simple properities with a title and desc
12:33<@planetmaker>And it will suddenly become interesting to actually make that readme valuable
12:34<Ammler>planetmaker: no, that readme has links
12:34<@Alberth>it may contain some stuff that is not really needed, but who cares?
12:34<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes, so?
12:34<@Alberth>the newgrf description now also has links
12:34<Ammler>and it has info about parameter, which are already in a14
12:34<@planetmaker>Even action8 has links
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12:35<@Alberth>perhaps the user never knew about certain options? or they were not clear from the a14 text?
12:35<@planetmaker>a14 can make it clear
12:35<Zuu>In a readme you could explain the settings in more detail that is not possible in the settings window?
12:36<Ammler>then someone sould make that clear instead add double infos
12:36<@planetmaker>But a readme has more than just description of what a single setting does
12:36<Ammler>it could also happen that someone updates/changes and doesn't update the readme
12:36<@planetmaker>You don't want to write a book on, say, a FIRS economy
12:37<@Alberth>planetmaker: someone will one day :)
12:37<@planetmaker>Yes, it can also happen that people release broken newgrfs. So what?
12:37<Zuu>Well, its up to each author how much docs you want to maintain.
12:37<Zuu>At the moment you are restricted to a text of maximum 500 chars.
12:38<Ammler>Zuu: you can add a readme or a guid or a whole homepage about
12:38<@Alberth>such authors probably cannot be bothered to write a readme in the first place, which is also allowed
12:39<Ammler>the main issue is that a openttd viewer never will support images and links
12:39<@Alberth>Ammler: there is no way you are going to get that document out of the tar file without installing extra software that you need to know where to find
12:39<Zuu>At the moment I dont have any readmes to any of my AIs as nooen would ever care to read it.
12:39<@planetmaker>Ammler: please tell me, what is then the better concept over a readme viewer? Something which is not a browser included within OpenTTD
12:39<Zuu>I can print as much info as I want in the AI log, but I'm sure most people wouldn't even notice it.
12:40<Ammler>planetmaker: extend a14
12:40<Ammler>might not be better but much easier for you and the author
12:40<Ammler>and of course not worse :-)
12:42<Zuu>I don't see why an in-game readme reader wouldn't be able to support images. It would be more work, but I wouldn't categorize it as imposible.
12:42<Ammler>and you have the info once only
12:42*Alberth repeats question how to store custom information that every newgrf has in a14 without making it useless
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>removing railtype grf does awful things to the graphics... why? can't you use simple rails as fallback graphics?
12:44<Ammler>also wouldn't it be nice to have further infos about a parameter with the parameter instead the need to crawl the readme
12:46<Zuu>As for parameters, you have a point, but I'm certain there are still things that would not fit in the parameter descs but would fit in a readme.
12:46<Zuu>Btw, if you add a long desc to a14, a long desc to NoAI is also welcome :-)
12:47<@planetmaker>Ammler: the readme itself has nothing to do what you add as desc to a parameter
12:47<Ammler>well, but you could add that info to a14
12:47<@planetmaker>But I see no advantage to add a _whole_ readme inside a NewGRF. That's way more complicated to maintain as author IMHO
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12:48<Ammler>you don't, that is the _whole_ point
12:48<@planetmaker>And the NoAI argument is actually a _very_ good one against action14
12:48<@planetmaker>or scenarios
12:48<@planetmaker>Ammler: but action14 = inside grf. Readme=outside grf. The latter is easier
12:49<@planetmaker>I think we're walking circles, though
12:49<Ammler>well, it doesn't hurt, you will see how useful it is
12:49<Zuu>planetmaker: Yes, so code it up and commit before Ammler comes with futher arguments :-)
12:49<Ammler>Zuu: "they" never care about my thoughts :-P
12:50<@planetmaker>totally not true :-)
12:50<@planetmaker>but we do not always agree either ;-)
12:51<@planetmaker>that's also totally not true ;-)
12:51<Ammler>ah well :-D
12:53<@planetmaker>but you recently found two or three points which you chose to strongly disagree to the way it was implemented. Of course that is obvious, but not the many things which 'just work' as you expect them to ;-)
12:56<@planetmaker>back to slicing the factory :-)
12:56<@planetmaker>I successfully killed the discussion :-P
12:58*V453000 is waiting to see if that brought the discussion back ;)
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>apparently not
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13:03<LordAro>an interesting conversation has been happening while i've been gone...
13:03<LordAro>should i make a forum thread?
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13:18<Ammler>planetmaker: well, just because you implemented it that way, because you are unable to ignore some stupid support/bug reports :-)
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause>err... in strings.cpp:641: return _units[_settings_game.locale.units].c_velocity.ToDisplay(speed, false); <-- why not "true" here? ("apply rounding")
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13:41<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: would the transparency window like work for you?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: not really...
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22376 /trunk/src/lang/ (portuguese.txt simplified_chinese.txt slovenian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 6 changes by Gavin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by Necrolyte
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13:47<@Alberth>hmm, I really don't understand it, thus :/
13:49<@planetmaker>Alberth: I think the point is: currently you have two ways to use it: toggle current settings as set in the window with x
13:49<@planetmaker>the other which a 3-state button won't allow anymore is: window open and toggling a button to switch visibility -> transparency or invisibility for a single item
13:49<@planetmaker>can be useful indeed
13:50<@planetmaker>at least such use would be more difficult with a 3-state button
13:50<@planetmaker>and using radio buttons would even require mouse movement
13:53<@Alberth>Ah, that is what I have been missing. I never realized you could use the window by itself too.
13:55<@planetmaker>you're welcome
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14:06<LordAro>Alberth: do you think i should move the GRFHasReadme() function to be a part of GRFConfig?
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14:07<LordAro>(i haven't looked into the feasibility of it yet)
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14:09<@Alberth>I don't have an opinion about it yet, GRFConfig does not hit me as the obvious right choice, but I don't know of any useful alternative either, so you may be right. In any case, moving code is imho not the main problem at this time, I'd suggest to get it running first
14:10<@Alberth>moving a function to some other struct is quite simple to do afterwards as well
14:14<LordAro>maybe :) i just thought it would be easier to do something like 'this->has_readme' than using the functions separately
14:17<@Alberth>it is mostly f(this); versus this->f(); not much of a difference
14:17<@Alberth>but if you believe in GRFConfig is better, it's your party
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14:19<LordAro>i guess
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14:20*LordAro ponders on an auto updating hg clone pull-er/updater script
14:21<@Alberth>ie hg fetch?
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14:22<@Alberth>or do you use a patch queue?
14:22<LordAro>one that does it every hour or something
14:22<LordAro>just to make life easier for my clean trunk clone
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a cronjob
14:22<@Alberth>I do it just when I get online, mostly once a day
14:23<@Alberth>unless an important change comes by
14:23<LordAro>i'd end up forgetting though, then have huge merges to do...
14:25<@Alberth>you don't touch that many files do you?
14:26<LordAro>shh :)
14:26<LordAro>i'd like one anyway, at least for the show-off factor :P
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: i'll be impressed if you teach it to automatically resolve conflicts :p
14:30<LordAro>:) i meant for clean trunk only
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14:40<@Alberth>LordAro: something like this?
14:42<LordAro>not sure, i don't think so... :)
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15:10<andythenorth>ho ho ho
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15:12<andythenorth>quak quak quak
15:13*andythenorth still thinks of ducks, not frosches
15:13<andythenorth>or froschen
15:13<frosch123>no need for plural, there is only me :p
15:14<alluke>i found something for heqs 2
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the plural is Frösche
15:15<andythenorth>we could do with more of them
15:15*andythenorth could do with more andythenorths
15:15<andythenorth>might not be so fun for the rest of you :P
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15:16<alluke>take a look
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15:19<andythenorth>leaves the Sisu looking embarassed
15:21<andythenorth>up to 300t
15:21<andythenorth>at highway truck speeds
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause>err... which action 3 do i hook my station rating callback to?
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15:44<frosch123>it's a generic callback
15:44<frosch123>i.e no id at all
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand that
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15:45<frosch123>"n-id" = 0
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand that either
15:45<frosch123> <- using the notation from that page
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>so <action3> <feature stations(?)> 00 <action2-id>?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>no, there's someg missing
15:47<frosch123>i guess one 00 more
15:47<frosch123>n-id and num-cid
15:47<Rubidium>just take a look at DBSetXL 0.9's source ;)
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but that's in some m4-script thingy...
15:48<frosch123>isn't eddi the main coder of that one? :p
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15:50*andythenorth just loves reading other people's unformatted nfo :|
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16:04<Eddi|zuHause>has _anybody_ actually seen some dbsetxl 0.9 code?
16:05<@Terkhen>unless the code created itself, at least one person has seen it
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16:09<__ln__>Terkhen: not necessarily if it was created by a blind person
16:09<__ln__>'night Wolf01
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16:14<andythenorth>tip of day from /me
16:14<andythenorth>don't draw windmills
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with the one you have?
16:15<andythenorth>not good enough
16:16<andythenorth>isometric bitmaps and conical buildings do not fit together well
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>you're nitpicking. do some of the "uses default graphics" industries instead...
16:17<andythenorth>just responding to the crowd :P
16:19<andythenorth>FIRS r1988
16:19<andythenorth>r2k here I come :P
16:19<andythenorth>one commit per character changed - too fine grained?
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16:32*andythenorth takes advice from Eddi|zuHause
16:32<andythenorth>and does something else instead
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16:47<frosch123>[22:04] <Eddi|zuHause> has _anybody_ actually seen some dbsetxl 0.9 code? <- i have the action 8
16:52<asilv>I have a grf that claims to be dbsetxl 0.9, I could decode it :p
16:53<frosch123>svt137w ?
16:53<asilv>not sure why I have it
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16:54<frosch123>iirc it was some nfo example for some newbie on some forum
16:54<asilv>must have been the "oh a grf! must download" reflex
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17:25<Nite_Owl>Hello all
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18:00<Zuu>planetmaker: my personal opinion is that > 2 state buttons are evil.
18:01<Zuu>You need to know their current state in order to know how many pushs you need to do inorder to reach the state you want.
18:01<Zuu>A lot more mental effort than klicking on the option you want.
18:03<Zuu>Yet all hearing aids has pretty much switched from a linear 3-state switch to a single button, often with 3-5 states that cycle.
18:12<Zuu>Where the old mechanical 3-state switch was instant as you knew which movement to make, the new cyclic buttons are much slower to operate. Usually when you get them they have filled it up with music programs, silent programs and whatever which takes forever to cycle through. :-)
18:13<Zuu>Good night
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18:27<@Terkhen>good night
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19:46<Eddi|zuHause>dear cat. the screen is way bigger than you. yet you manage to fully cover the entire view.
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19:52<+glx>they're good to do that
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20:23<Pikka>spy 'round here...
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 26 00:00:33 2011