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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-26

---Logopened Tue Apr 26 00:00:33 2011
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01:50<@Terkhen>good morning
01:55<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
01:57*andythenorth has a suggestion for invisibility panel
01:57<andythenorth>lets make it really big, so it's really clear and easy to understand
01:57<andythenorth>no matter that it obscures 66.67% of available screen
01:57<@SmatZ>and occupies half of the screen!
01:57<andythenorth>we could add another button to it
01:57<andythenorth>'make the invisibility panel invisible'
01:58<andythenorth>of course the solution for all GUI problems is to simply add a button to the visible GUI to suit each kind of person
01:59*andythenorth has not yet had caffeine
01:59<@SmatZ>the 'X' button makes the window invisible
01:59<andythenorth>cmd-q, enter makes it invisible on OS X
01:59<andythenorth>along with the rest of the game :P
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02:35<Zuu>hello planetmaker and see you later
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02:37<@planetmaker>he :-)
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04:07<Felicitus>any news regarding FS#1622 ? the feature request is very old (2008), has a patch (updated in 2010) but no acticity since then
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04:34<LordAro>Felicitus: i think you need to look at Belugas' comments on the patch
04:36<LordAro>anyone here able to help with bash scripting? 'if [[!$2] -o [$2 != "default"]]; then' results in: './ line 15: [[!]: command not found'
04:37<TWerkhoven>never really done bash before, but it sounds like variable $2 is empty
04:37<TWerkhoven>because it tries to do the not (!) without anything else
04:37<Felicitus>LordAro: yes, but since chu updated his patch, maybe a re-review would be nice. that's a feature very useful on goal servers
04:38<LordAro>Felicitus: yes, i agree :)
04:39<Felicitus>LordAro: try adding a space between ! and $2
04:39<Felicitus>and between [ and !
04:39<Felicitus>i think bash is bretty picky about that ;)
04:39<Felicitus>(but I'm no bash expert either, just a guess)
04:39<LordAro>i'm trying to do: "if $2 exists or $2 equals "default""
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04:40<LordAro>i'll try your suggestion
04:40<TWerkhoven>if $2 <> $null (is that valid bash?)
04:40*andythenorth got stitched up by automatic orders
04:41<andythenorth>they affect the vehicles list for stations
04:41<andythenorth>so I've needlessly scrapped some vehicles
04:41<andythenorth>thinking there were far too many serving a station
04:43<Ammler>[[ -z "$2" -o "$2" != "default" ]]
04:44<LordAro>thank you o-great-bash-master Ammler :)
04:45<LordAro>oh - "syntax error near '-o'"
04:46<Ammler>[[ -z $2 ]] || [[ $2 != "default" ]]
04:46<Ammler>or man test
04:50<LordAro>man test?
04:50<Ammler>acutally [[ isn't test anymore
04:51<LordAro>actually, is there an opposite to '-z'?
04:52<LordAro>is that just [[ $2 ]] ?
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04:54<LordAro>are you sure? it doesn't seem to work...
04:55<LordAro>i g2g... have a paste, fiddle with that :)
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05:01<@planetmaker>Felicitus, indeed it seems that it had coding style issues... and meanwhile the patch is outdated by 6 months again ;-)
05:04<Ammler>LordAro: I have no clue what that should do
05:04<Felicitus>planetmaker: I will see what I can do
05:05<Felicitus>planetmaker: is it OK to take the patch and work upon that?
05:08<Ammler>also [[ "$1" ]] || [[ "$1" != "default" ]] is always true
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05:20<@planetmaker>Felicitus, It's not my patch, but I recon it is. Assuming he agreed to GPL v2 as license when posting the original patch, you might want to mention the original patch writer though.
05:23<Felicitus>yes, of course planetmaker. btw does ottd use an automatic code formatter or are coding style issues resolved manually?
05:24<@planetmaker>OpenTTD has its coding style which patches must follow. What you use locally to achieve that: your choice. I do it manually
05:24<@planetmaker>with an occasional script to check for white spaces
05:24<dihedral>good morning
05:25<@planetmaker>^ there's an extensive wiki page on it ;-)
05:25<Felicitus>eek :)
05:26<@planetmaker>hello dihedral
05:26<dihedral>i've seen longer coding style docs - no need to eek at that one ;-)
05:27<@planetmaker>not that I've done much research on it, but I've seen the OpenTTD style guide referenced elsewhere. Forgot where, though
05:28<@planetmaker>and lengthy != comprehensive ;-)
05:28<@planetmaker>the longer, the less likely to be read :-P
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06:40*andythenorth wants new object tiles that accept / produce
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06:48<@planetmaker>those'd be industries, andythenorth
06:48<@planetmaker>or what would be the difference?
06:48<andythenorth>I ask myself this question too
06:48<andythenorth>I have no good argument
06:48<andythenorth>other than 'indsutry seems wrong for this'
06:49<@planetmaker>the 'feature' industry not necessarily needs to provide only industries in the commonly understood sense
06:49<@planetmaker>But yes... both makes sense. Somewhat :-)
06:49<andythenorth>I think I am distracted by understanding the code so much
06:49<andythenorth>I can't be objective
06:49<@planetmaker>especially with objects? ;-)
06:49<andythenorth>for something like a lighthouse, what makes most sense to player?
06:50<@planetmaker>'light house' indeed feels like object
06:50<@planetmaker>But... what would then be the difference to industry (except the technical aspect of views / layouts)?
06:50<@planetmaker>Wouldn't players wonder about that?
06:51<@planetmaker>Why are industries auto-generated, objects not? Shall that be the difference? The only one?
06:51*andythenorth isn't sure
06:51<@planetmaker>Would make *somewhat* sense.
06:51<andythenorth>industry is the correct way to do a lighthouse
06:51<andythenorth>does it seem right though?
06:51<andythenorth>maybe the idea is bad, not the implementation
06:51<andythenorth>is a lighthouse a good idea?
06:51<@planetmaker>yes, but not as industry ;-)
06:52<@planetmaker>as house or object
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06:55<andythenorth>but if house, it won't build away from town...
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06:55<andythenorth>and if object, no pax acceptance / production
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06:55<andythenorth>delivering small amounts to lighthouses smells a bit wrong
06:55<andythenorth>too clever
06:55<andythenorth>not good gameplay
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07:04<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what I'd do with a light house is both: house and object. As a house it could be built in a town. On the shore only with sufficient water around. Never to be destroyed again. And as NewObject such that the player can (also) place it where desired. If you want modify (also) the default lighthouse sprite to make it universally used.
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07:04<@planetmaker>and of course as house: min distance between eachother
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07:17*andythenorth ponders delivering engineering supplies in phantom f4 fighter jet
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07:27<@Terkhen>sounds cool but not very efficient :)
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07:29<SpComb>delivering engineerin supplies in a phantom f4 to a nuclear power plant industry?
07:47<Pikka>they can't carry enough to make money, though :)
07:47<andythenorth>making money?
07:47<Pikka>your winnings, sir
07:48<Pikka>norseman should be good for such deliveries, also pc12s, etc.
07:48<Pikka>but for now it is bedtime!
07:48<Pikka>goodnight wallyweb
07:48*andythenorth makes a homelette
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08:06*andythenorth ventures into YACD
08:16<andythenorth>how interestink
08:17<andythenorth>this will turn the game upside down
08:21*andythenorth could do with a manual :P
08:23<andythenorth>the concept is quite like 'supply contracts' that have been discussed n times
08:23<andythenorth>but without the faff
08:24*andythenorth is losing money fast
08:36<andythenorth>bankrupt :D
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08:54<@planetmaker>can't you air-connect two major towns and be set?
08:55<andythenorth>not sure how YACD handles transfers yet
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, automatically, i suppose
08:56<andythenorth>I suppose too
08:56<andythenorth>YACD + FIRS is....interesting
08:57<andythenorth>there are conflicts with a few of the FIRS concepts
08:58*andythenorth wonders if cargo from water industries is being handled differently to that from land
08:58<andythenorth>land industry appears to favour nearby destination
08:58<andythenorth>water appears to favour distant destination
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09:00*andythenorth thinks YACD *will* work very well with FIRS clustering of farms and mines etc
09:01<andythenorth>the idea of moving cargo to a hub station via transfers is very YACD-friendly
09:01<andythenorth>switchyards might become a lot more common....
09:01*Eddi|zuHause still finds /yak-d/ hard to pronounce
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09:03<andythenorth>is it 'yakked' ?
09:03<andythenorth>as in 'they were yakking, they yakked a lot'
09:03<andythenorth>it's yak-d to me
09:03*Eddi|zuHause doesn't understand the relevance of /iks-ka-tse-de/, which clearly is individual letters...
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09:31*andythenorth isn't yet sure, but YACD might create a case for %loaded orders
09:32<andythenorth>otherwise I have to timetable a lot
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>there was a patch somewhere that made conditional orders useful for the case that new order = old order
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>1: load at X
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>2: if load% < 80%: goto 1
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>3: unload at Y
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>the trick here is making the train not leave 1
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>currently, this would make the train start and stop constantly
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09:37*andythenorth will test some more
09:37<andythenorth>the traditional gameplay favours point-point unit trains,
09:38<andythenorth>with YACD, manifest trains might be much more viable
09:38<andythenorth>similarly 'liner service' for ships
09:38<andythenorth>large mixed freights on mainlines might be quite efficient
09:39<andythenorth>but managing the load orders will be complicated
09:39<andythenorth>maybe timetables are the right answer
09:40*andythenorth now wants mixed-cargo ships again :P
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09:45<Eddi|zuHause>these are exactly the same thoughts i went through with my last cargodist game :p
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>next thought on that trace is: shunting :p
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>and: trains on ships :p
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09:48<lugo>goods (subcargo: trains) ;)
09:51<andythenorth>the incentive seems to be to connect network nodes as densely and quickly as possible
09:51<andythenorth>traditional gameplay, there's no incentive
09:55*andythenorth wonders if there's any point waiting at stations at all
09:55<andythenorth>(for PAX)
09:55<alluke>whats pax
09:55<andythenorth>alluke: I'm discussing YACD - before I mislead you :P
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>i usually wait at end stations, to have some determined time windows for freight trains
09:56<alluke>freight trains? what are those? :P
09:57<alluke>i see those extremely rare in here :(
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09:58*andythenorth is going to lose this new YACD test game pretty soon too
09:59<andythenorth>everything loses money
09:59<andythenorth>I have a town with 1,700 people, but only 25 want to go somewhere today :|
10:00<@planetmaker>it's holiday season
10:00<@planetmaker>but 25 people can fill a bus
10:01<alluke>whats yacd
10:01<alluke>planetmaker you have tiny buses
10:02<andythenorth>local transport is important inside large cities
10:03<alluke>youre a sherlock
10:03<andythenorth>totally changes local networks
10:03<@planetmaker>maybe that works with yacd, andythenorth ?
10:04<alluke>is yacd some new project?
10:04<andythenorth>it does
10:04<alluke>yet another role play?
10:05<andythenorth>alluke: YACD is in the OpenTTD dev forum at tt-forums
10:05<andythenorth>it's another cargo destination patch
10:07*andythenorth wants boats with PAX + mail :(
10:08<@planetmaker>is that already on your pony list?
10:08<andythenorth>it's not going to happen
10:08<andythenorth>it has...problems
10:15<@planetmaker>doesn't make much sense either, though...
10:15<@planetmaker>but maybe... ships could get a 'compartment' property, which gives the number of 'wagons'
10:18<asilv>refitting multicargo ships migh be problematic
10:19<@planetmaker>same as refitting trains
10:19<@planetmaker>code could be shared there
10:21<asilv>not really, with trains you can refit some vagons and then add vagons refitted to other cargo, that won't work with ships
10:22<@planetmaker>hm, maybe the selective consist refit patch never made it into trunk...
10:22<andythenorth>it did
10:23<andythenorth>the issue is a GUI for ships
10:23<andythenorth>how many 'holds'
10:23<andythenorth>planes have the same issue, but we all ignore it :P
10:23<andythenorth>it's the usual :\
10:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the number of holds could be a newgrf property. And then simply be displayed in the GUI as cargo holds. Easy IMHO
10:23<@planetmaker>default ships: 1 cargo hold, nothing changes
10:23<@Terkhen>the refit GUI is prepared to deal with multiple parts now, the problem is what "parts" to display for ships
10:23<@planetmaker>So nicely backward compatible
10:24<@Terkhen>for trains is simple: wagons
10:24<@planetmaker>Terkhen, just some generic cargo hold icon
10:24<@planetmaker>action5, openttd.grf
10:25<@Terkhen>I would recommend fixing all issues with aircrafts first, as they already have "partial" support for this
10:25<@planetmaker>sure :-)
10:25<@planetmaker>but could work the same way
10:26<@Terkhen> <--- you only need to turn this awful mess into a nice, consistent spec :)
10:27<@Terkhen>or at least the parts relating to how the special aircraft refit is hacked into the code
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>well cargo holds for ships and for aircraft should not be any different...
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10:29<@Terkhen>that's why IMO this should start with making aircraft refits more consistent
10:30<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, not that, but Terkhen means the mess of the specs and the convoluted behaviour ;-)
10:30<@Terkhen>currently it is a bit hacky
10:30<@Terkhen>as you only have one option
10:32<@planetmaker>hm, ships have no capacity multiplier?
10:35<andythenorth>YACD might be really quite addictive :o
10:35<@planetmaker>still not broke?
10:35<andythenorth>it seems to have broken bridge building
10:35<andythenorth>but no, I'm making money
10:36<andythenorth>I've focussed on PAX, and tried to build a dense network very fast
10:36<andythenorth>I've piled *all* my cash into one area
10:36<andythenorth>otherwise I'll never get any vehicles into profit
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10:37<Eddi|zuHause>with cargodist i usually pick two cities close to each other, in each one a tram network, and then a train between them
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10:45<alluke>btw andy
10:46<alluke>are you seriously going to balance heqs 2 to nars and ukrs?
10:47<andythenorth>alluke: in terms of capacities?
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10:47<alluke>they both are seriously undersized
10:47<@planetmaker>that's what she says
10:47<alluke>why dont you just get real data from the vehicles theyll be based on
10:48<@planetmaker>real is boring and has nothing to do with game balance
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10:50<andythenorth>how do you know they're undersized?
10:50<alluke>compare to other sets?
10:50<alluke>and irl stuff
10:50<alluke>OpenTTD is an open source simulation game based upon Transport Tycoon Deluxe
10:50<@planetmaker>it simulates particularly well real-world distances and time passage
10:51<Amis>Hello! o/
10:51<@Terkhen>hi Amis
10:51<@planetmaker>hi Amis
10:51<@Belugas>and "irl"... I hope it's not what I think it means...
10:51<@planetmaker>alluke, those who argue "it's good because it's realistic" have lost the argument, as it is no argument for a game ;-)
10:51<@Terkhen>it means inverted rail lines :P
10:51<andythenorth>alluke: a real life bethgon coal car has maybe 120t capacity
10:52<alluke>but in my games i find the realistic stuff most fun
10:52<@Belugas>then, it's cool, Terkhen :)
10:52<alluke>others can go to toyland :P
10:52<@Belugas>alluke, realism stinks in ottd
10:52<@Belugas>BIG TIME
10:52<andythenorth>how many 120t wagons do I need in my train?
10:52<andythenorth>for a coal mine with 120t production?
10:52<Amis>I was wondering if disabled smooth economy has anything with the following or it's just a grf that's messing with me: even if a power plant has decent supply of coal, it closes after a certain time no matter what (1.1.0-RC3)
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10:53<alluke>real coal trains carry thousands tons of coal
10:53<@planetmaker>power plants w/o newgrfs never close
10:53<Amis>I see, so then it's a newgrf fiddling around
10:53<@Terkhen>a single diamond or gold mine production equals the real production of the whole world, so you can throw subarctic and subtropical to the same trash bin than toyland :)
10:53<alluke>and 64 tile trains in ottd are superb fun
10:53<alluke>have you ever tried
10:54<@Terkhen>128 wagons is realistic? :P
10:54<andythenorth>alluke: capacity will probably be a parameter option in HEQS 2. Worry not :P
10:54<alluke>i found a vehicle for that set
10:55<alluke>you might like it
10:55<andythenorth>the sisu?
10:55<alluke>120 ton mining truck
10:55<andythenorth>you missed that part of the chat I guess ;)
10:55<alluke>a bit different than the current ones in heqs
10:55<alluke>my comp crashed
10:55<Amis>Btw, thinking about this: "[16:53] <planetmaker> power plants w/o newgrfs never close", that means after a while I'll be flooded with power plants because they won't close?
10:55<alluke>its broken old pos
10:56<andythenorth>I see your sisu and raise you this:
10:56<@Terkhen>Amis: yes
10:56<@Terkhen>you will get tons of banks too
10:56<andythenorth>up to 350t, maybe 5 or 6 trailers. Highway truck speeds
10:56<alluke>the sisu carries 120 tons at 40 kmh
10:56<alluke>empty speed is 60
10:57<@Terkhen>opengfx+ industries allows these industries to close normally... but I wonder if we tested if a power plant can now close when it is serviced
10:57<alluke>19 liter 612hp cummins industrial diesel
10:57<alluke>theres better pic
10:57<Amis>Oh, I have opengfx+ and that is probably the one that closes my power plants
10:57<alluke>they were built in early 90s for lkab in sweden
10:58<@Terkhen>hmm... IMO closing industries that are being serviced is a bug :/
10:58<@planetmaker>Terkhen, it is. But it's a newgrf which does that, so not our bug
10:58<@Terkhen>it's a bug of opengfx+ industries :)
10:58<@planetmaker>oh, he. ok. our ;-)
10:59<@Terkhen>I suppose "normal" secondary industries don't close as long as they are producing
11:00<@Terkhen>and I begin to remember all the problems that andy had while trying to force power plants to behave in FIRS :P
11:00<@planetmaker>Terkhen, we probably need to use some kind of persistent storage and a closure callback
11:01<@planetmaker>at least that'd be a way ;-)
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11:01<@planetmaker>like, no vehicle arrived the last 5 years: yes, you may close
11:01<@Terkhen>as long as it is not stockpiling... :/
11:01<@planetmaker>no no :-)
11:01<@Terkhen>sounds complicated to code
11:01<Amis>Btw, how does the game pick location for a new industry?
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11:02<TheVal>ello ello
11:02<@Terkhen>hi TheVal
11:03<@planetmaker>hi TheVal
11:03<@planetmaker>yes, probably not 100% straight forward
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11:06<andythenorth>just make the power plant a black hole industry
11:06<andythenorth>it shouldn't close then
11:06<andythenorth>type = 4 iirc
11:06<Amis>That solves one problem and brings in another
11:07<andythenorth>you want closure?
11:07<@planetmaker>Terkhen, we should look at manind newgrf ;-)
11:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth, for un-serviced power plants, sure
11:07<andythenorth>on what condition? No cargo delivered for 5 years?
11:07<@Terkhen>s/look/shamelessly copy/ :)
11:08<Amis>Like that...
11:08<@planetmaker>psst, but yes ;-)
11:08<andythenorth>reset a value to 0 every time that cargo is delivered
11:08<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the goal is just that long games don't get completely flooded with power plants
11:08<andythenorth>using the production cb
11:08<andythenorth>increment the value every month
11:08<andythenorth>@calc 5*12
11:08<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 60
11:08<andythenorth>when the value == 60, permit closing when monthly or random cb runs
11:09<andythenorth>if value < 60, don't allow closing
11:09<@planetmaker>yup ;-)
11:09<andythenorth>FIRS does it
11:09<andythenorth>the PITA was trying to prevent a wave of closures
11:09<andythenorth>which is not conceptually possible in current spec
11:09<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I guess we need just that as a template for many industries
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11:10<@Terkhen>which ones besides the power plant would need this?
11:10<andythenorth>it's useful for other secondaries imho
11:11<Amis>You could also pitch in a code that prevents it from flooding one area with oil rig when there is a minimal open water :>
11:11<@planetmaker>hm, the power plant already is LIFE_TYPE_BLACK_HOLE?
11:11<andythenorth>Amis that's just anti-clustering - easy :)
11:11<Amis>Doo eeeet!
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11:13<andythenorth>cb28 + var 67 or 68
11:13<alluke>what did i miess
11:13<andythenorth>make the distance a parameter
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11:15<@Terkhen>oil platforms already have similar code for being placed close to water
11:16<@Terkhen>but wouldn't setting oil rig as conflicting industry for oil rigs be enough?
11:23<TheVal>Andy.. you referred to highway truck speeds for those powertrans lorries... How?
11:23<@planetmaker>hm... the fruit plantation should change to a bananas plantation. Would fit better than a kind of palm tree ;-)
11:24<TheVal>I mean you'd need to give the truck 2000 hp or more to reach speeds of >70 km/h with a 350 ton load
11:24<Amis>Reality is overrated
11:25<@planetmaker>but it is ;-)
11:25<TheVal>Speaking of reality... 20.000 ton coal trains without cargo weight multiplier anyone?
11:25<alluke>planetmaker id like to see your sp game
11:26<@planetmaker>I play multiplayer nearly exclusively, alluke ;-)
11:26<alluke>me too
11:26<alluke>well join mine and vals mp game for once
11:26<@planetmaker>with 64-tile trains?
11:26<TheVal>looks like I have to confirm your MP activity alluke
11:26<alluke>yes :P
11:27<TheVal>Well, maybe not with a 64 tile train
11:27<TheVal>would not hurt to have a decent capacity on them though
11:27<@planetmaker>I think I prefer another style ;-)
11:27<TheVal>~100 tons of coal/ore for 1 realistic modern big-size hopper
11:27<alluke>im running 12 64 tilers at my coal mines iirc
11:27<TheVal>...that would not make the majority of trains look stupid either
11:27<alluke>35 ton wagons
11:28<alluke>the biggest non-2cc you can find
11:28<alluke>because 2cc is rubbish mostly
11:28<TheVal>like, for instance, a 4TE10C hauling a 64 ton ore train to top speed easily on flat ground
11:28<TheVal>lol. relax
11:29<TheVal>but the capacity is a problem in the most cases
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11:29<TheVal>it's quite annoying to have to use up to 20 cars to even get 800 tons of payload
11:30<@planetmaker>that's what the weight multiplier is for. Set it to 10 and you need 3 wagons of 35t load to haul 1050t ;-)
11:30<TheVal>but all you get is unnecessary ballast
11:30<TheVal>instead of that very amount of cargo
11:30<@planetmaker>alluke, but you find all my games in the PublicServerArchive ;-)
11:31<Amis>OpenTTD is easy enough without the oversized wagons
11:31<TheVal>it's not the payload that's increased. it's just the weight
11:31<alluke>ive seen them
11:31<TheVal>what would "oversized" wagons make easier?
11:31<andythenorth>how many 800t / month coal mines do you have?
11:31<TheVal>they'd actually be realistic
11:31<TheVal>depends on what you're trying to imitate
11:31<TheVal>if it's the LKAB Kiruna mine I use two dozen regular ore mines
11:32<Amis>Well then first do something with the interest rate because it's not realistic to have 4% as the maximum, what if I want to simulate the falling economy with 10-15% interest rates
11:32<TheVal>should be added - i agree
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11:32<TheVal>but I don't see a reason for why 100 ton hoppers as they really exist would make the game easier
11:32<@planetmaker>interest is not interesting. I have paid off the loan after 5 years usually ;-) Of course it depends on settings / newgrfs
11:32<TheVal>you still have to gather that amount of cargo
11:32<Amis>Shorter trains, stations
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11:33<alluke>also if they cost as much as irl
11:33<TheVal>is that a problem?
11:33<TheVal>short trains do nothing but look stupid
11:33<Amis>Well... you can't fit a 64 tile train into a valley but you can do the same with a 12 tile train
11:33<TheVal>if they are too light.
11:33<Felicitus>I usually play on luuk, where players usually pay back their loan after 1-2 years
11:33<TheVal>if they have that length for a reason it's fine
11:33<Felicitus>even less in some games (hard settings)
11:34<alluke>they dont use any grfs
11:34<@planetmaker>Felicitus, for fun I once joined such goal server some time ago. We owned all players in that game in no time ;-)
11:34<@planetmaker>even though we started like 10 years after them
11:34<TheVal>if you don't have the necessary output you don't have a reaosn to use a big freight locomotive
11:34<TheVal>which would actually boost the use of shunters for smaller mines....
11:35<Felicitus>planetmaker: do you want to have a match ? ;)
11:35<Felicitus>planetmaker: but I play city builder only
11:35<TheVal>smaller standard road vehicles would not hurt either (non-HEQS that is)
11:35<alluke>like lrvs caddy?
11:35<alluke>carrying 2t :P
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11:35<@planetmaker>I've not played there or that, Felicitus
11:35<TheVal>the eGRVTS trucks carry over 55 tons of payload. it's just silly if you consider that for most trucks the total limit is between 40 and 50 tons
11:35<@planetmaker>and given the history they won't fancy me joining ;-)
11:36<TheVal>some of the eGRVTS trucks
11:36<@planetmaker>(nor do I fancy that actually)
11:36<alluke>theyre too big?
11:36<alluke>maybe in germany
11:36<TheVal>for 1 trailer on a highway you cannot expect to load 55 tons of cargo
11:36<TheVal>just think of the brakes
11:37<TheVal>it'd be outright suicidal
11:37<@planetmaker>TheVal, there are trucks with 60t weight
11:37<alluke>in here maximum total mass for truck is 60t
11:37<@planetmaker>experimental, but running the roads in the EU
11:37<TheVal>Yeah, but they have 2 trailers
11:37<@planetmaker>not afaik
11:37<alluke>single truck + traler
11:37<TheVal>well, finland is another story.
11:37<Felicitus>planetmaker: city builder is a variant of a goal game where you need to grow your town to the highest population. depending on the size of your town, you need to deliver a certain amount of goods, coal, pax, food, water, valuables, gold (exact types required differ with climate, of course)
11:38<alluke>and the rest of europe
11:38<@Terkhen>trucks are almost as long as a passenger ferry :)
11:38<@planetmaker>Felicitus, my highest population town I grew is 1 million ;-)
11:38<TheVal>usually the limit is 40-50 tons of total weight
11:38<TheVal>that's dry weight + cargo
11:38<alluke>in germany
11:38<TheVal>40 here
11:38<TheVal>look at france, the UK, etc
11:38<TheVal>not much different there
11:38<alluke>there too?
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11:38<@planetmaker>TheVal, they have the 60t test trucks afaik, too
11:39<TheVal>but not 60 tons of payload!
11:39<Felicitus>planetmaker: yes, but you can't compare that to cb. it's limited to 12 years
11:39<@planetmaker>no, that not
11:39<alluke>whats the point of limting the mass
11:39<alluke>road damage?
11:39<TheVal>and the 60 ton trucks - like I said - are usually using 2 trailers
11:39<@planetmaker>road damage
11:39<@planetmaker>accident severity
11:39<TheVal>like the bigger of the two Renault Magnums in the hungarian truck set
11:40<TheVal>also, with more realistic power & weight you're getting nearer to where the truck is supposed to be with its performance...
11:40<TheVal>but that's another story
11:40<TheVal>I do not understand why Road Vehicles are allowed a bigger specific capacity than trains
11:41<TheVal>it should be viceversa
11:41<TheVal>as railways are more expensive to set up
11:41<@Terkhen>why not?
11:41<@Terkhen>viceversa it also works
11:41<TheVal>It's annoying
11:41<TheVal>making trains useless
11:42<TheVal>why would you even run a train if less tiles of RV can carry more cargo?
11:42<TheVal>not to mention the radically much cheaper setup costs
11:42<@planetmaker>not capacity but through-put is important. Which is v * m
11:43<Amis>You know what makes trains useless? The airplane newgrfs where they let the plane carry stuff like... coal... and... oil...
11:43<@Terkhen>if you don't like sets with high capacity road vehicles, don't use them
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11:43<TheVal>On my server such applications of airplanes are not allowed...
11:43<alluke>coal and oil planes are banned in our games
11:43<@Terkhen>the game gives possibilities to all NewGRF coders, it is up to the user to choose which ones fit his gamestyle
11:43<TheVal>no that's not the point
11:43<TheVal>high-capacity RVs have a reason to be there
11:44<TheVal>but I don't get how everyone has a problem with hopper cars carrying more than 50 tons of payload
11:44<TheVal>look at all the bloody train sets
11:44<@Terkhen>choose a different train set then
11:44<TheVal>practically nowhere you can find a hopper capable of transporting >60 tons of minerals
11:44<Doorslammer>I like this guy, he swears like me
11:44<TheVal>I tried pretty much all of them
11:44<alluke>2cc is maximun with 60 tons
11:44<alluke>2nd is canset with 55
11:45<alluke>then are the others with 30-40
11:45<alluke>and at the bottom the louse 20 ton ukrs
11:45<TheVal>ukrs2 you mean?
11:45<Amis>In reality they use trains only for high distances... trucks are good for shorter distances and it's fine if it can carry almost 60 tonnes
11:45<TheVal>well that's why trains need a huge capacity
11:46<@Terkhen>I don't really get your point
11:46<TheVal>it's getting increasingly idiotic when you take the hassle to set up a rail network to then realize you need oversized trains to transport the amount of cargo a small amount of normal trucks could handle with a highway network
11:47<TheVal>I'm not referring to HEQS trucks, but to the normal semis
11:47<Doorslammer>Well... that's how it is in life
11:47<TheVal>Err... not really
11:47<Doorslammer>Seen the amount of railways put out of business thanks to trucks?
11:47<TheVal>in real life, hopper cars have a higher capacity than trailers of trucks covering large distances
11:48<TheVal>as much as 100 tons per hopper car
11:48<Chris_Booth>TheVal this is not real life
11:48<TheVal>while the average truck carries 25-40 tons
11:48<Chris_Booth>This is Spata
11:48<Doorslammer>So why have a go at the trucks when the trains need more capacity?
11:49<Chris_Booth>also no openttd loco could pull a 100 ton wagon
11:49<TheVal>why does this game have trains at all if they're made obsolete by unrealistic RVs and artificial limitations anyway?
11:49<TheVal>ever tried the norwegian train set?
11:49<@Terkhen>I still don't see the point
11:49<TheVal>or the russian and american set
11:49<Chris_Booth>TheVal what RVs make trains useless?
11:49<alluke>ever heard of coupling or newgrfs?
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>"realistic" trucks have a huge advantage at small-quantity point-to-point transport
11:49<TheVal>all I am asking for is more capacity for train cars
11:50<TheVal>to realistic levels
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>but most TTD industries produce large quantities
11:50<@Terkhen>in my experience, road vehicles never can achieve the capacity of trains
11:50<@Terkhen>TheVal: there are tools to do that
11:50<Chris_Booth>to many noobs here saying stupid things
11:50<TheVal>well, I have eGRVTS, HTS and some other RV sets in
11:50<TheVal>to increase the capacity of all freight cars of NewGRF sets to realistic levels?
11:50<Chris_Booth>TheVal: want big wagons look for 2cc train set on bananas
11:51<Chris_Booth>they have stupid huge wagons
11:51<TheVal>i have it
11:51<TheVal>they're still too small
11:51<Chris_Booth>they are the largest I know of
11:51<Chris_Booth>100tonnes a wagon
11:51<TheVal>the train that derailed at San bernadino in 1989 had hoppers loaded with 100 tons each
11:51<andythenorth>egrvts is too big
11:51<@Terkhen>write a feature request for 2cc or whatever set you are interested in
11:51<TheVal>the larges 2cc hoppers carry 60 tons
11:51<@Terkhen>it is not really an OpenTTD issue
11:51<@Terkhen>but a NewGRF issue
11:52<TheVal>True under that aspect...
11:52<Amis>Multiply every number with 2 in your mind and your are set
11:52<TheVal>that ain't what I am looking for
11:52<alluke>its not the mass of train
11:52<Amis>Heck it's still a solution
11:52<alluke>its how much stuff the train contains
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11:52<TheVal>realistic capacity causing realistic weight
11:52<TheVal>is what I want
11:52<Chris_Booth>or TheVal you could go buy your self a real train
11:53<Chris_Booth>and not play openttd XD
11:53<alluke>guess which is cheaper
11:53<@Terkhen>both openttd and complaining are free :)
11:53*andythenorth is baffled
11:53<andythenorth> what was the question?
11:53<Doorslammer>I still don't know
11:54<alluke>log? ;)
11:54<TheVal>Too low capacities of the cars of trains
11:54<Chris_Booth>they are not TheVal
11:54<TheVal>NewGRF sets in particular
11:54<Chris_Booth>they are not
11:54<TheVal>Compared to the real levels they are wrong!
11:54<@Terkhen>TheVal: if none of the hundreds of NewGRF sets suits your gamestyle, write your own; if you already tried most of them there is nothing we can do to help you, really
11:54<alluke>i think the finnish set will be first trainset with real-life data
11:54<Doorslammer>Think you'll find when a 100 ton hopper is full, it's not necessarily taken on 100 ton
11:54<Chris_Booth>you are telling me a wagon that is 300miles long is correct?
11:54<@Belugas>[11:54] <TheVal> Compared to the real levels they are wrong! <--- BOOO!!!!!
11:55<TheVal>and to make things even worse, most NewGRFs for RVs have too high capacities
11:55<@Belugas>Who cares!!!!
11:55<Amis>TheVal, a top notch coal mine in OpenTTD can mine about 15000 tonnes a year, now in real life they can mine half a million. As you can see all you have to do is use the weight multiplier since no value has connection with reality
11:55<@Terkhen>you might also want to ask yourself why none of the set does this
11:55<TheVal>that's why you need to place several mines next to each other if you want to imitate a gigantic mine like that of LKAB in Kiruna
11:55<@Belugas>And ask yourself why a bridge takes less than a day to be built in the game, while it can take years in real life!!!
11:56<andythenorth>15,000t from an openttd mine?
11:56<Chris_Booth>TheVal this a a game not a simulator
11:56<Chris_Booth>2,000 tonnes
11:56<Amis>You would have to place 200 mines next to each other to be able to campare to real life
11:56<andythenorth>more likely
11:56<alluke>OpenTTD is an open source simulation game based upon Transport Tycoon Deluxe
11:56<TheVal>but that still doesn't explain why the capacities of the cars of trains are artificially lowered
11:56<alluke>reads in the main page
11:56<Chris_Booth>actualt 2225 is max for mine IIRC
11:56<@Terkhen>where does it say that it tries to simulate reality?
11:56<andythenorth>about that
11:56<TheVal>not for NewGRFs....
11:56<alluke>or will planetmaker change that now? :P
11:56<Doorslammer>I got a Chaney Jubilee with a 2,600t coal train in Poland right now <--- Never actually happened...
11:57<@Terkhen>as I already said, a truck is almost as long as a passenger ferry
11:57<TheVal>let me load up my NewGRF list of my current game
11:57<andythenorth>approx 2048 is my guess for a ttd mine
11:57<andythenorth>FIRS will be about the sam
11:57<TheVal>I am running ECS
11:57<@Terkhen>a single gold mine produces as much gold as the whole real world, monthly
11:57<@Terkhen>the game does not try to be realistic
11:57<Chris_Booth>ECS is a swear work
11:57<TheVal>depends on your viewpoint
11:57<Chris_Booth>we like FIRS here
11:58<TheVal>for me it's the rescue
11:58<alluke>how much did andy pay you? :P
11:58<TheVal>no need to adapt to other people's opinions - but the decision should be left to the player
11:58<andythenorth>Chris_Booth: it's not a competition :P
11:58<TheVal>especially when it comes to capacities
11:58<Chris_Booth>if it was FIRS would win :D
11:58<alluke>then why do you leave out ecs support from heqs?
11:58<andythenorth>TheVal: there's no entry fee to coding newgrfs
11:58<andythenorth>Chris_Booth: unhelpful
11:59<andythenorth>alluke: raise a ticket for the lack of ECS support
11:59<andythenorth>with details of what's missing
11:59<TheVal>but creating duplicates is not exactly the most senseful idea in history either, is it?
11:59<Chris_Booth>alluke probably to much work to maintain
11:59<alluke>still firs will have full support
11:59<alluke>and it isnt even finished
11:59<TheVal>slight adjustments through parameters would already address this issue perfectly
11:59<Amis>There is one change in the later OpenTTDs, you can no longer disable newgrfs while in game, why is that?
11:59<Chris_Booth>ECS is less playable
11:59<Chris_Booth>with mines closing
11:59<TheVal>you can if you hack the openttd.cfg file
11:59<Chris_Booth>for no reason
11:59<alluke>that can be turned off by parameter
11:59<TheVal>dev tools or something to 1
11:59<Amis>I see
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12:00<TheVal>or yes lol
12:00<alluke>andy how do i put new issue there
12:00<Chris_Booth>so TheVal you want massive wagons that will only move once every 3 or 4 years?
12:01<alluke>cant find the button :/
12:01<TheVal>ahem... if you don't use too many that will not be the case
12:01<TheVal>you only need trains for large amounts of cargo
12:01<andythenorth>alluke: what makes you think FIRS will have full support?
12:01<Doorslammer>Use trucks then
12:01<Chris_Booth>I am leaving the argument
12:01<Chris_Booth>its just going arround in circles
12:02<alluke>youre the author? :P
12:02<TheVal>1 moment
12:03<andythenorth>TheVal: alluke there's no entry fee for coding grfs
12:03<andythenorth>if you don't like current capacity, fix it
12:03<andythenorth>by writing your own grf
12:03<@Terkhen>you are actually accusing him of only supporting his own stuff and actively denying support to other sets?
12:03<Chris_Booth>most current GRF have the source released so you can compile your own
12:04<alluke>on mac?
12:04<TheVal>my point for trains with realistic capacities is this; if 1 industry is not enough to cause a realistic output, you concentrate them artificially!
12:04<Chris_Booth>if you know what you are doing
12:04<Chris_Booth>yes on a mac
12:04<@Terkhen>some of the most active NewGRF developers use mac
12:05<andythenorth>omg no wtf there is no way you can use a mac
12:05<Chris_Booth>and atleast one openttd coop dev uses a mac
12:05<andythenorth>get a real os
12:05<Chris_Booth>like red hat andythenorth ?
12:05*andythenorth removes mac support from FIRS, HEQS, CHIPS and FISH
12:05<TheVal>Lazyness vs Linux....
12:06<Chris_Booth>mac == bank robery
12:06<Chris_Booth>windows == depression
12:06<Doorslammer>We've lost the point a bit
12:06<TheVal>mac = if you remember to sell it before it outdates completely (eg after 3 years) you still get a reasonable amount of money for it
12:07*andythenorth suspects a forthcoming godwin situation
12:07<andythenorth>it's usually a flowchart
12:07<Chris_Booth>I love flow chart
12:07<Chris_Booth>and all graphs
12:07<Doorslammer>Now if Hitler owned a Mac...
12:07<andythenorth>mac vs. others || vi vs. emacs ==> godwin
12:07<TheVal>which is what will happen to my aluminium unibody MacBook this winter possibly... I can still expect around 2/3 of the original value
12:07<Chris_Booth>I use them to bore people at work all the time
12:07*andythenorth will do something more useful than this
12:08<Chris_Booth>TheVal: are you mad
12:08<@Terkhen>good idea andythenorth :)
12:08<@Terkhen>I should too, but I can't continue working until a long compilation finishes
12:08<TheVal>it will be totally refurbished by then
12:08<Chris_Booth>no one want second hand laptop
12:08<Doorslammer>So what was the problem again?
12:08<andythenorth>what an increasingly epic waste of time
12:08<andythenorth>can someone kick some other people please
12:08<Chris_Booth>just someone that wanted a chat
12:08<andythenorth>the candidates should be obvious
12:09<TheVal>ah whatever. going to put up my server. talk to you later ;-)
12:09<andythenorth>TheVal: capacity is solvable - if you wanted to...
12:10<TheVal>....code and create substitute / alternative / space wasting sets?
12:11<TheVal>I don't get what the big deal with adding a parameter is.
12:11<TheVal>that's all that's needed
12:11<@Terkhen>code the parameter then
12:11<@Terkhen>many sets are open source, you can contribute patches to them
12:12<TheVal>will try when I have the free time to learn how to code
12:12<andythenorth>TheVal: the big deal is that the people who maintain NARS 2 and UKRS aren't interested in your request :)
12:12<andythenorth>there's not much you can do about that
12:12<andythenorth>and none of them are here right now
12:12<Doorslammer>Longer trains maybe
12:12<TheVal>good attempt Doorslammer. that is the problem
12:13-!-alluke [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:13-!-alluke [] has joined #openttd
12:13<TheVal>OTTD limit: 64 tiles
12:13-!-KOPOBA [~xren@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:13<TheVal>current real limit: 20000 tons for a coal train (China; Daqin line)
12:13<Doorslammer>Surely you don't need it that long?
12:14<Doorslammer>Seems pointless
12:14<TheVal>you reach the tile limit before the weight limit if you use a decent payload to weight ratio
12:14<TheVal>=> multiplier = 1
12:14*andythenorth suspects this might be a losing battle
12:14<andythenorth>what's the most popular newgrf on bananas?
12:14<andythenorth>it changed actually
12:15<alluke>is there a way to sort em like that
12:15<andythenorth>but it used to be 'very large ships'
12:15<andythenorth>very large ships has *fricking stupid* capacities
12:15<andythenorth>yet it's one of the most downloaded grfs
12:15<alluke>its kinda stupid imo
12:16<TheVal>well... it did make sense in terms of realism. did, however mean that you need several major trains to fill a ship
12:17<TheVal>I would possibly use it if they weren't optically outdated that badly
12:17<TheVal>would also clean up the shipping routes ;-)
12:17<alluke>add-on grf for fish? :P
12:17-!-KOPOBA [] has joined #openttd
12:17<TheVal>negative. whatever
12:18<andythenorth>it's dumb
12:18<alluke>how can vehicle ferries carry coal?
12:18<alluke>in trucks?
12:18<TheVal>of course it is. but so is having 20 coasters travelling between 2 ports at the same time
12:18<Doorslammer>Weeeell... it could be converted? Pointles I know, but silly things occur on this planet
12:18<alluke>just thought :D
12:18<alluke>dont take it personally
12:19<TheVal>in reality you have major piles (optical illusion possible through ISR) next to the docks
12:19<Amis>"planet".... the earth is flat according to OpenTTD and world does end at the edges
12:19<TheVal>ships do not really run for 200 tons of coal unless they're tiny
12:20<andythenorth>in reality...
12:20<andythenorth>- the world is not 256 colours
12:20<andythenorth>- there isn't a giant arrow floating over the world
12:20<andythenorth>- the world does not have gridlines
12:20<TheVal>OTTD is an Industrial Simulation
12:20<andythenorth>- the world has perspective
12:20<andythenorth>- 64 tile trains cannot disappear into a 1 tile depot
12:20<TheVal> / economiy simulation
12:21<Felicitus>andythenorth: I disagree. I have seen the giant arrow multiple times, especially when drunk
12:21<andythenorth>it is not permanent daylight
12:21<TheVal>well what do we have the MLSS depots for...
12:21<andythenorth>- road vehicles do not drive through each other
12:21<andythenorth>- ships do not drive through each other
12:21<alluke>the gridlines can be hidden :P
12:21<Doorslammer>The towns have their names hovering in the centre, though
12:22<Doorslammer>And road vehicles do drive through each other, though I suspect that's an Australian custom of sorts
12:22<@Terkhen>andythenorth: better go back to that productive work you mentioned earlier :P
12:22<Amis>Question related: why do some trucks randomly go over each other when waiting behind eachother?
12:22<andythenorth>quantum effect
12:22<andythenorth>I wondered that for many years
12:22<Amis>It really messes up stuff
12:22<andythenorth>they can tunnel out of a roadblock :P
12:22<@Terkhen>Amis: without that you would get impossible to solve roadblocks
12:23<andythenorth>total gridlock
12:23<Amis>They can park at the first spot of a long station and block everybody behind em till they are loaded
12:23<andythenorth>I've done it
12:23<TheVal>especially when no railroad crossings have been built yet
12:23<@Terkhen>and either nobody worked in a better solution or there is not a better solution
12:24<Doorslammer>Especially in TTO, when U turn buttons didn't exist
12:24<Doorslammer>Used to have to wait for months to pass before something happened
12:25<alluke>does anyone know a reason for shrinking cities?
12:26<TheVal>+1 to that question...
12:26<Doorslammer>Might need to change your prescription
12:28<andythenorth>alluke: what date?
12:28<andythenorth>don't know
12:28<TheVal>it's a problem with a city in our current savegame
12:28<TheVal>the city went from 60k inhabitants to 6k
12:29<andythenorth>I think there's a bug prior to about 1930
12:29<TheVal>within around 140 years
12:29<andythenorth>did you start providing good service to the city?
12:29<Amis>TheVal: global warming
12:29<TheVal>3 companies are providing service
12:29<V453000>how many stations do you have in the city
12:29<V453000>how large is the city
12:29<TheVal>1 moment - screenshot incoming
12:29<alluke>we have airports and train and bs station in there
12:29<V453000>does it have enough space to grow? :)
12:29<TheVal>6000 inhabitants remaining
12:29<TheVal>there was...
12:29<TheVal>depending on the direction
12:29<andythenorth>I think there's a bug with cities
12:30<V453000>btw towns do not shrink after reaching whatever date
12:30<Amis>I also noticed this strange behaviour, the game starts replacing the building with small village houses
12:30<andythenorth>they rebuild because they're getting good service, but they rebuild with smaller houses
12:30<andythenorth>definitely happens when playing 18xx games
12:30<V453000>because the area is too far from city center
12:31<TheVal>regarding the screenie that's about to follow - several villages were funded around the shrinking city in a hope to improve service
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12:33<andythenorth>I'm pretty certain there is / was a bug there
12:33<V453000>I believe that
12:33<TheVal>Where "kiirava" and "garching" now are, the city at the coast used to have houses and roads.
12:34<andythenorth>I discussed it with frosch at some length
12:34<andythenorth>the buildings went away?
12:34<andythenorth>or large ones replaced by small ones?
12:34<TheVal>gaps opened in the city
12:34<andythenorth>different bug
12:34<TheVal>first to smaller houses
12:34<TheVal>eventually disappearing
12:34<andythenorth>MP game?
12:35<TheVal>4-5 companies
12:35<andythenorth>any griefers?
12:35<V453000>only 2 stations in centrer of the town, building spread out
12:35<V453000>cant say I would expect it to be this empty, but this isnt proper service :)
12:35<TheVal>It used to be bigger...
12:35<TheVal>and hence better connected
12:36<TheVal>speaking of griefers... you mean trolls?
12:37<TheVal>My NewGRF list is so insanely complicated that only people I helped with were able to join. none of the players of this game are childish enough to destroy houses intentionally at such a scale
12:39<V453000>hm, couldnt ECS do something?
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12:40<@planetmaker>TheVal, use NewGRFs available from online content and you have no issues with newgrf lists.
12:41<V453000>and less awesome newgrfs ;(
12:42<alluke>ill think i power up some cities with tind turbines and sac's power poles
12:42<Amis>Eh... if this power-plant disappearing is really OpenGFX+ realted it must be fixed immediately D: All I'm doing is refunding the power plants, hehh
12:42<V453000>btw what house is it next to Marteria Ost? the tall skyscraper in front of the green TTRS one (from which newGRF is it?)
12:43*andythenorth didn't know towns destroyed buildings and didn't replace them
12:43<alluke>its burj-al-arab
12:43<alluke>found somewhere in forums
12:43<V453000>eh :)
12:44<alluke>last stage hq
12:44<V453000>andythenorth: I didnt know either
12:44<V453000>oh, an HQ? :D
12:44<V453000>looks nice
12:44<TheVal>ah sorry I was afk for a moment
12:44<V453000>but well, doesnt look HQ-like :)
12:44<TheVal>yep it's used as a HQ
12:44<andythenorth>alluke: I'll check the HEQS - ECS issue
12:45<andythenorth>I'm surprised by limestone
12:45<V453000>doesnt ECS somehow influence growth of towns?
12:45<andythenorth>alluke: you need to specify which liquid cargos don't refit
12:46<andythenorth>and also specify the farm cargos
12:47<alluke>how do i edit it
12:47<andythenorth>HEQS farm tractors + trams have the problem? Other vehicles don't?
12:48*andythenorth really hates the way of setting classes
12:48<TheVal>I would likely use online content-only grfs, but the content downloader is not complete... and additionally, there's a detail about the canadian train set I dislike nowadays, a reason for which I am sticking with v0.3c
12:48<alluke>it opens new box
12:48<andythenorth>the mask in / mask out thing is basically bollocks isn't it
12:49<alluke>is there a way to edit the old text?
12:49<alluke>or must i add new
12:50<andythenorth>if you can't use update, add a comment
12:52<alluke>the update button opens new box
12:53<TheVal>@alluke your iChat ain't quite open right now is it?
12:53<alluke>aim fails
12:53<alluke>cant connect
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13:02<andythenorth>alluke: just to be clear - the issue is which cargo graphics are used?
13:03-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
13:05<alluke>but i dont want to lay too much work on you
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13:06<alluke>if i was real ass you would have to draw new graphics for many cargos
13:06<ZirconiumX>hello all
13:07<alluke>like wool baled on flatbed, same for lumber, cars/tractors on flatbed, fruits in open wagon, etc
13:07<andythenorth>yeah - and no
13:07<alluke>ye its too much
13:07<andythenorth>lumber sprites exist
13:07<andythenorth>the rest go covered
13:07<alluke>ye i remember seeing it on the forum
13:08<alluke>why didnt you include it
13:08<andythenorth>cargo graphics are over-rated
13:08<andythenorth>those who rate them most highly never release very much :P
13:08<alluke>hm maybe just delete it?
13:08<alluke>ill put on new
13:08<andythenorth>the issues are valid
13:09<andythenorth>they'll probably get fixed sometime
13:09<andythenorth>I'm happy to support ECS and other sets
13:09<alluke>but id clean it up a bit
13:09<andythenorth>I'm just not going to do the testing
13:09<alluke>should dyes be carried in tanker or as paint cans in a box?
13:09<andythenorth>I don't care either way
13:09<andythenorth>ask george
13:10<alluke>im nice and let it be the box
13:11<Amis>Excuse my confusing, but... what the heck are lickable pixels?
13:12<ZirconiumX>it's a short way of saying 'that's good' or 'I like it'
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13:13<alluke>the list got shortened radically
13:13<Doorslammer>Lick it and find out
13:13<alluke>its now just change to 4 already existing sprite
13:13<Doorslammer>The schnozzberries taste like schnozzberries!
13:13<ZirconiumX>Doorslammer: it taste just like chicken
13:14<andythenorth>Amis: I just copied it from steve jobs
13:14<Doorslammer>Well that's not very special now, is it?
13:14<andythenorth>it's not original
13:14<Doorslammer>Give me a call when it tastes like a peanut M&M
13:14<ZirconiumX>Doorslammer: nope - it's venison now
13:15<alluke>andy are you able to delete or clear my current list?
13:15<alluke>because itll look really stupid if i now put the changes under it
13:16<Amis>developer = 1, this option in the CFG should let me change newgrfs during game?
13:17<andythenorth>alluke: do you want me to bounce the ticket? You can write a new one
13:17<alluke>bounce = delete?
13:17<alluke>if so, yes
13:17<Amis>Are there any CFGs beside the one in the user's folder?
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13:20<@Terkhen>Amis: no
13:21<@Terkhen>I don't remember the name of the setting, but it is not "developer"
13:22<alluke>ill see
13:22-!-TheVal [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
13:22<andythenorth>but don't report bugs that are caused by adding / removing grfs
13:23<alluke>newgrf_developer_tools = true
13:23<alluke>that does the trick
13:23<andythenorth>misreported bugs may result in flames
13:23<ZirconiumX>and/or flaming computers
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13:33<andythenorth>multi-tile houses (such as stadiums) can rebuild, leaving empty tiles in town...
13:33<andythenorth>that might explain that issue from earlier
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13:39*andythenorth resumes YACD game
13:40<ZirconiumX>Hello Zuu
13:40*andythenorth might need some extra ships in FISH :P
13:40*andythenorth would like a pony: easier setting of timetables
13:40<Zuu>andythenorth: playing a YACD game sounds fun.
13:40<andythenorth>it seems to be so far
13:40<Zuu>Hello ZirconiumX
13:40<andythenorth>maybe it's just new :)
13:41*ZirconiumX notices AHMRAATNU
13:42<ZirconiumX>AHMRAATNU How many recursive acronyms andy the north uses
13:42<andythenorth>only when they're easy to say :P
13:43<ZirconiumX>A-HM-RAT-NU - see easy to say
13:43<Zuu>It's also useful if the acronym gives an idea of what kind of set it is.
13:44<ZirconiumX>besides - FISH should be FIS - FIS Is Ships - rather than FISH Is SHips
13:56<Amis>Oh woah... I'm playing OpenTTD for a while and now is the first time I ever see an industry placed at sea level at generating
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there is the 24h-clock patch which has some timetabling stuff
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's not perfect
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>but it helps quite a bit
14:06<alluke>we need ponies in ottd
14:06<alluke>coded as planes
14:06<@SmatZ>flying ponies <3
14:06<ZirconiumX>I once had a thought
14:06<alluke>in all colors of rainbow
14:06<@SmatZ>with rainbow behind them
14:07<alluke>some could be rvs
14:07<ZirconiumX>santa was not getting enough income - so he hired himself out - sleigh and reindeer and all
14:08<ZirconiumX>the only difference from christmas was the fairy light lamp saying 'Santa for hire'
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14:21*Zuu would like to see auto-binaries of YACD on a finger-enabled server
14:24-!-Ruudjah [~opera@] has joined #openttd
14:24-!-alluke [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
14:25*Rubidium too ;)
14:25-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
14:27<andythenorth>YACD reminds me of reading this book
14:28<ZirconiumX>What is YACD
14:28*Zuu is trying to use hg to fetch OpenTTD for the first time
14:28<ZirconiumX>yes - I know - I'm not with the times
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14:29<Zuu>hmm, just realized I forgot to specify which version to get.
14:31<Zuu>but a "revert" should probably get me set
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14:32<andythenorth>will a small world network be the best?
14:32<andythenorth>or a lattice?
14:32<andythenorth>or one single super hub connecting all other nodes?
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14:44<Zuu>In OpenTTD I don't think the superhub will be that much benefital.
14:46<Zuu>For IRL public transport system you usually calcualte experienced wait cost/time as 2 * actual wait time. In OpenTTD this cost is zero.
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14:47<Zuu>(this excludes the possible extra travel distance for going via a hub)
14:47<andythenorth>I think a superhub will also be congested :D
14:47<andythenorth>and vulnerable to breakdowns
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you can reasonably pull of a super-hub in a large map (>=512^2)
14:49<@SmatZ> bacon <3 but the page is about something very different than one would expect :(
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14:50*andythenorth wants a link graph
14:50<andythenorth>dunno what it would look like
14:50-!-KouDy [] has quit []
14:51<andythenorth>maybe a highlight overlay for routes with an excessive number of hops
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14:53<Eddi|zuHause>,%2018.%20Jan%201934.png <-- this is my last CargoDist network
14:53<andythenorth>what does the link graph represent in that case?
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>the lines are the passanger connections, the blue squares are the passenger production
14:54<andythenorth>another interesting aspect
14:54<andythenorth>small towns - or just stations in the middle of nowhere - can become significant transfer hubs :)
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14:55*andythenorth is probably a bit too excited about YACD :P
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>there are (or were, in that version) also graphs about capacity and usage
14:55*andythenorth never played cargodist for a variety of reasons
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>but they were very difficult to read and cluttered the view
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>the difference between YACDest and CargoDist will only be relevant in the early game. as soon as you have a significant network, they will probably turn out with similar effects
14:57<Rubidium>if you'd be covering the towns well enough that is
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>this map-graph was originally from PaxDest (3?), then adapted by CargoDest and later CargoDist
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i guess it would be fairly easy to also integrate it into YACDest
15:00<Rubidium>I'm still not sure what concept to use: destinations or distribution
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15:01<Eddi|zuHause>let's see how it turns out during testing, the YACDest patch is fairly young ;)
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15:01<andythenorth>I am ill-equipped to comment - I haven't played cargodist
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15:01<andythenorth>YACD appeals to me more instinctively
15:01<andythenorth>I want reasons to build networks to places
15:01<andythenorth>cargodist won't provide that AFAIK :)
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few reasons, but they don't punch you in the face :p
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15:05<Ruudjah>Towns don't build buildings on all types of tiles, do they? Specifically, tiles diagonally both vertically and horzintally?
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15:07<+michi_cc>I fear a lack of updates to andy NewGRFs for the next days :)
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause>do any of the coop-savegames stand a chance with YACDest?
15:09<@SmatZ>not sure
15:09<__ln__> (partially swedish, with english subtitles) (not suitable for MSDN subscribers)
15:09<@SmatZ>coop games usually have one destination industry for all cargo of one type
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15:10<@SmatZ>if the cargo was forcefully distributed to other industries, the cargo wouldn't be accepted
15:10<@SmatZ>so, no
15:10<@SmatZ>coop is probably not compatible with yacd
15:13<+michi_cc>Depends on whether there really is only one suitable acceptor or just one served.
15:14<+michi_cc>But even if there are two possible accepting industries, you'll get more than half of the cargo as industries with higher production output get a higher destination weight.
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15:20<andythenorth>michi_cc: it is pretty addictive so far ;)
15:20<Zuu>Is there any "make bundle" for systems without gcc?
15:21-!-KouDy1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21<Zuu>./configure complains that I don't have gcc.
15:21<@SmatZ>Zuu: how do you compile without gcc?
15:22<@SmatZ>I don't think you are supposed to run ./configure when you are using MSVC
15:22<@SmatZ>sorry, I don't know
15:23<+michi_cc>Zuu: Makefile.msvc, instructions are at the start of the file
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15:42<andythenorth>starting a new mini-network isolated from the main network results in very low PAX numbers
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15:53<+michi_cc>andythenorth: What did you connect? Local network or several towns? Did you check the town/industry window if you actually get most of the possible cargo?
15:53<andythenorth>I have a main network
15:53<andythenorth>to which I've been adding nodes
15:53<andythenorth>then I connected a few nodes locally, but not to the main network
15:54<nicfer>what's the most minimalist trainset existing for openttd?
15:54<andythenorth>michi_cc: it's a learning thing, not a problem
15:55-!-KouDy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:55<+michi_cc>Can you post a save? It's interesting to see how other people build.
15:57<andythenorth>I have unfortunate nightly newgrf builds :P
15:57<andythenorth>I can include those
15:57*Rubidium silently starts coughing: paxreduction
15:57*andythenorth +1
15:58<+michi_cc>Are these available on the coop bundle server? Then I can download them myself.
15:59<andythenorth>should be yes
15:59<andythenorth>how handy
16:01<@Terkhen>nicfer: the default one / opengfx+ trains
16:02<nicfer>hmmm, opengfx+ doesn't add any new train
16:02<nicfer>or am I wrong?
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16:05<frosch123>it has refittable stuff instead of single cargo wagons
16:05<frosch123>maybe also some more graphics
16:10<nicfer>I hate trainsets with hundreds of almost-similar trains
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16:10<Ammler>[22:02] <nicfer> or am I wrong? <-- yes
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16:17<+michi_cc>andythenorth: You could get quite a bit more passengers by improving the coverage of the serviced towns (especially at Bubblebridge missing quite a lot of the demand)
16:17<andythenorth>it only just allowed me to build more stations ;)
16:17<andythenorth>the town was quite cross with me for a few years
16:18<andythenorth>I haven't figured out RV routing yet
16:18<andythenorth> full load orders seem to be ruled out in YACD
16:18<andythenorth>and waiting 10 days is too much
16:18<andythenorth>waiting 0 days seems to not work
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i set the wait times for trams to something low, like 1 tick, and at the end station something longer like 500 ticks, then the trams on the route stay nicely separated
16:20<andythenorth>I'm trying 1 day
16:21<+michi_cc>Full load orders do work, but I'd only use them for cargo and not pax.
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16:21<Eddi|zuHause>exactly. full load orders will fail with bidirectional travel
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>all vehicles will wait at one side, while the other side overfills
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>because it's never fully symmetrical
16:22*andythenorth wants a default timetable wait amount - similar to servicing default :P
16:23<@Terkhen>nicfer: IIRC it adds only one or two engines, but you asked for the most minimalistic set
16:23<nicfer>also, I find like the original trainset lacks some things, specially MUs
16:23<nicfer>and the two DMUs are useless
16:24<andythenorth>michi_cc: binkyton hotel is quite a popular destination ;)
16:24<nicfer>120 km/h at 1980? is that a joke?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: that's why we have newgrfs
16:25<@Terkhen>you seem to have contradicting goals :)
16:26<nicfer>read what I've said above
16:26<nicfer>neither too much trains, nor too few
16:27<@Terkhen>not minimalistic then... usually I only use opengfx+ trains and 2cc so I can't help you much on this
16:28<nicfer>ehmm... mediumalistic?
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: i'm afraid with trainsets you won't find any common criteria about what is "good"
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's why there are so many
16:29<+michi_cc>andythenorth: The first value of economy.cargodest.weight_scale_ind should probably be higher, or maybe I'll have to add a third value for town cargoes.
16:30<andythenorth>PAX industry is an odd case
16:30<andythenorth>newgrf wiki suggests it's not really something that should be done
16:30<andythenorth>but I did it anyway :P
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>if one had more cargo slots, all industries could accept passengers (workers)
16:31<Ammler>nicfer: there are filters, so no set is too big
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>then also these could get bias for passengers from town
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>(commuters make a vast majority of local traffic)
16:31<Ammler>best is use every set at once
16:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: they can
16:32<andythenorth>tile acceptance
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that's quite a hack
16:32<andythenorth>but then industries also need fuel?
16:32<+michi_cc>It's not that much off though, production is 99 pax per month, outgoing cargo is about double. As pax is handled symmetrically (i.e for an amount A -> B, the same amount B -> A is generated) double is quite expected.
16:33<andythenorth>michi_cc: I don't think it's a problem
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16:33<andythenorth>everyone likes a meal and a drink :
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16:34<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: does your patch solve the "two industries in catchment area" delivery problem?
16:35<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Cargo is delivered to the intended destination industry, regardless of how many other industries are in the catchment. So, yes.
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>great. i think that's definitely an argument in favour of YACDest over CargoDist
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16:39<+michi_cc>andythenorth: I would have placed Slumberbridge Docks on the coast section a bit lower as that has better coverage of the town from there.
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16:46<andythenorth>michi_cc: I need to start building my freight network
16:46<andythenorth>I want to see if manifest trains can replace point-to-point unit trains
16:47<andythenorth>but I didn't want to start too early, I think freight will lose money easily
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16:56<Eddi|zuHause>problem is you can't vary cargos back-and-forth...
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16:57<Eddi|zuHause>and you have to define the capacities for each cargo beforehand, they can't dynamically change
17:00<andythenorth>I know
17:00<andythenorth>and I have 29 cargos in FIRS + mail + pax
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>have i mentioned shunting yet? :p
17:01<andythenorth>we also had the idea of wrapping cargo in 'containers'
17:01<andythenorth>possibly limited by class
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that is probably mostly the same thing, code wise
17:02<andythenorth>but visually different
17:02<andythenorth>and in terms of routing
17:02<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: There's a different thing in the pipe before that ;)
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: are you actually peter1139 [wait, he incremented?] in disguise? :p
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking about that recently... there should be enough map bits
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>the more railtypes you have, the more important it gets
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17:07<andythenorth>surely you meant 'roadtypes' :P
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for that he must reveal his disguise :p
17:09*andythenorth needs a consist manager
17:10<andythenorth>here's one option: MP game with paid helper (amazon turk)
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17:15<@Terkhen>good night
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17:16<andythenorth>michi_cc: FIRS farms are an interesting challenge now
17:17<andythenorth>they have very low production initially
17:17<andythenorth>so I have amounts like 4t per month to xyz place
17:18<andythenorth>routing freight is going to break my brain :D
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's why i start with fewer industries :)
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>it'd be nice if secondary industries clustered around cities
17:32<frosch123>maybe the number of destinations should be limited per industry
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like simutrans
17:34<frosch123>no idea :)
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17:38*andythenorth is finally going to have to fix the FIRS low-cargo processing bug
17:38<andythenorth>due to YACD
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17:42<supermop>what are you guys talking about
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18:11*Zuu wonders if he should be lucky or not for the fact that the Ginzu 'A4' steam engine got 99% reliability in his game
18:12<Zuu>Nice that it have good reliability, but it will take a while before there comes an engine that is worth to upgrade to.
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>i play without breakdowns
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>and the default engines are boring. especially without wagonspeedlimits
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 27 00:00:50 2011