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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-27

---Logopened Wed Apr 27 00:00:50 2011
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01:03<k-man_>whats the benefit of wagon speed limits?
01:04<Rubidium>"realism"
01:07<k-man_>oh
01:07<k-man_>ok
01:07<k-man_>so there would be no point putting a very fast loco with speed limited wagons
01:12<Mazur>Good
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01:43<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:14<@planetmaker>moin
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03:22<gartral>idea: petition AI opponent too remove/rerout a station
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04:47<@planetmaker>gartral, that'd require adding handling of such news item in all AIs ;-)
04:48<@planetmaker>And it will require to add this option to send messages of certain types to AIs in the first place
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04:48<@planetmaker>I don't say it's a bad idea, though; actually it'd be nice, but I wonder about the details how it could and should behave
04:49<@planetmaker>What info would you give an AI and how?
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04:50<@planetmaker>currently it sounds to me like LOTS of work for very little gain
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04:51<@Terkhen>stopai <num>
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04:54<@planetmaker>well, that's like using a gun where you could have asked "can you please let me through" ;-)
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04:55<@Terkhen>but it works :P
04:56<@planetmaker>I consider doing that in my yacd game... There's meanwhile hardly space to build somewhat sane tracks
04:57<@planetmaker>and 10 AIs build A LOT of roads and tracks you can't move anymore
04:57<@Terkhen>play with less AIs
04:57<@planetmaker>:-)
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04:58<@planetmaker>yeah... ChooChoo crashes, and TransAI and AroAI constantly ask for a take-over ;-)
04:58<@planetmaker>The latter two obviously are not competitive enough to handle less cargo
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05:14<Ammler>hehe, eveyone is playing yacd :-)
05:16<@planetmaker>well, needs testing ;-)
05:16<@planetmaker>it's really fun. You can - lo and behold - build realistic passenger networks which make sense
05:17<@planetmaker>Thus orders get easier. But you'll need to put more thought into how you organize your network. Which quite fun
05:18<Ammler>maybe it would be easier and doable to make a very limited infrasharing, like "tranfer stations"
05:18<@planetmaker>well, but that's a totally different thing :-)
05:19<Ammler>cargodist/dest are useless without for mp
05:20<Ammler>they are not just sp only features, also just 1company only :-)
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05:20<@planetmaker>Not really. But cargod*st does not solve any MP thing
05:20<@planetmaker>yes, they are
05:20<@planetmaker>that's why they're different things.
05:20<@planetmaker>cargod*st is about where cargo wants to go.
05:20<@planetmaker>infrasharing is about how cargo can be transported
05:21<Ammler>if it would be possible to tranfer cargo to another company, this could be saved
05:21<Ammler>f
05:21<@planetmaker>it's just two entirely different things :-)
05:21<@planetmaker>which can but need not go hand in hand
05:21<Ammler>yep
05:22<@planetmaker>IS could allow one company per town with another doing the IC services. Would be nice, too.
05:22<Ammler>well, at least for coop it should be useable :-)
05:22<@planetmaker>With or without cargod*st
05:23<Ammler>ha, of course, so it works on MP too
05:24<@planetmaker>concerning IS, I think it is an intrinsic coop feature and can't be made MP-safe. But... don't share with people whom you don't trust, don't share with anyone by default
05:24<@planetmaker>No per-company settings for fees solves issues of unexpected fee changes, too
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05:24<Ammler>as said, there could be a limited sharing, only transfer between stations
05:25<@planetmaker>But stations are also tracks :-)
05:25<Ammler>no sharing the same station
05:25<@planetmaker>Ah, I see what you mean
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05:25<Ammler>but you can like distant join to another station
05:26<@planetmaker>Yes... maybe that'd be an approach, too. Complementary to IS
05:26<Ammler>and then maybe even define, which kind of cargo you like to share
05:26<@planetmaker>well. That's hard(er) than sharing everything in that station
05:27<Ammler>well, IS2 won't be accepted as it is it intrusive or how that is called
05:27<Ammler>too
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05:27<Ammler>planetmaker: yep, no need, you simply don't have to unload something on that station, you won't share
05:27<@planetmaker>not really. Because it had too many not quite satisfying solutions for what happens if sharing is changed
05:28<zydeco>greetings, and gtg
05:28<zydeco>lol
05:28<@planetmaker>the station approach might indeed solve that
05:28<@planetmaker>hi zydeco
05:28<V453000>what are the Tal UK houses? I downloaded it from bananas but I cannot see it in the newgrf list :O
05:28<@Terkhen>hi zydeco
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05:28<@planetmaker>V453000, UK houses
05:28<V453000>and they are black-texted on bananas site too :|
05:28<V453000>oh, right
05:29<@planetmaker>it's confusing. Maybe tell Pikka that :-)
05:29<@planetmaker>hm... not UK houses
05:29<@planetmaker> but UK houses and Industries. Or like that
05:29<V453000>those arent in the list either :| only UK towns which say version 2.1 and the Tal thing said 0.3
05:29<@planetmaker>UK Houses are by Zephyris
05:29<V453000>yea :o
05:29<@planetmaker>search for 0.3 ;-)
05:30<V453000>not in the list :(
05:30<Ammler>do existing connections have influence on yacd destinations?
05:30<@planetmaker>hm, I recently saw that newgrf in my list, so it does exist, V453000 :-)
05:30<@planetmaker>But I don't recall exactly its name
05:31<@planetmaker>Ammler, no
05:31<@planetmaker>which IMHO is the big advantage over cargodist
05:31<V453000>it says it is downloaded, but .... just isnt in the newgrf list
05:31<Ammler>so cargo distribution never changes?
05:32<@planetmaker>Dunno. It does adjust to changes of acceptance, suppy
05:32<Ammler>planetmaker: well, existing connections should not rule, but also have influence
05:32<Ammler>I mean, some cities here are closer, but we have a good connection to zürich, so we prefer to go there if we like to go to a city :-)
05:34<Ammler>but fixed distribution might also be quite much desync stable
05:40<V453000>wtf .. I even checked whether the newgrf is in the data folder - the zip or whatever it is was there, so I even unzipped it and put it in the directory, but it still isnt visible from game
05:41<V453000>pm: could you please try to make a savegame that contains this newgrf and send it to me? :)
05:43<gartral>well glad my idea has merrit. but i think i found a bug: I cannot buy stock in my competing company..
05:45<gartral>and also, what value in the .sav files represents a companys' funds?
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05:45<Ammler>V453000: any custom openttd build?
05:45<Ammler>maybe try another openttd version, the grf might have limits
05:46<V453000>no, tried both stable and PS trunk
05:46<Ammler>ok
05:52<@Terkhen>gartral: if you want to change company fundings it will be way simpler to use the cheats than trying to hack the sav
05:54*gartral didn't know there was intergrated cheats
05:57<@Terkhen>Ctrl + Alt + C, single player only obviously
05:57<@Terkhen>move to the company you want to edit and use the money cheat to reduce/increase funds
05:58<@Terkhen>then switch back to your company again
05:58<gartral>is it possible and about my bug earlier?
05:58<gartral>and about my bug earlier?
05:58<@Terkhen>I don't know, I never use shares
06:00<gartral>also, AI "chopper" isn't working
06:01<Noldo_>shares makes no sense
06:02<@Yexo>gartral: chopper needs helicopters, if there aren't any it doesn't work
06:02<gartral>shares are busted
06:02<gartral>Yexo: well i have helicopcters. chopper crashes on load
06:02<@Yexo>is buying shares enabled in the advanced settings?
06:02<@Yexo>it's under "competitors"
06:10<gartral>ahhah
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06:28<@planetmaker>V453000, yes, I can. Please remind me tonight, though
06:28<V453000>ok :)
06:29<@planetmaker>gartral, sure, not every AI is guaranteed to work. It needs testing as it may also depend on the OpenTTD version (though it shouldn't)
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06:38*andythenorth ponders numerous things
06:38<andythenorth>all very exciting
06:39<andythenorth>newgrf support for YACD? :o :D
06:39<andythenorth>:P
06:40<@planetmaker>how newgrf?
06:41<@planetmaker>you mean like FIRS' fishing grounds? ;-)
06:41<andythenorth>cb to set the cargo destination weights
06:41<andythenorth>probably per-industry rather than per-cargo
06:41<andythenorth>but I'm not sure on the internals of YACD in that respect
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06:43*andythenorth also has been pondering canals
06:43<andythenorth>why aren't canals much used?
06:43<andythenorth>they should be prior to about 1900
06:43<andythenorth>is it just a lack of boats?
06:44<@planetmaker>yes. And the previously bad boat path finder which made boats very stupid
06:44<@planetmaker>That luckily changed post 1.1.0 ;-)
06:44<@planetmaker>but there's not much need anymore to discourage the use of boats
06:45<V453000>they still have endless capacity without colisions ;(
06:45<@planetmaker>yes
06:45<andythenorth>so I should get on and add some canal boats to FISH?
06:45<@planetmaker>sure, why not?
06:45*andythenorth liked the suggestion of hacking trams to be canal boats :P
06:46<@planetmaker>:-D
06:46<andythenorth>hmm
06:46<V453000>floating trams?
06:46<andythenorth>what else did I think of in my car journey
06:46<andythenorth>car journeys result in a lot of ponies
06:46<andythenorth>I want to add some boats to HEQS
06:47<andythenorth>I know I have a ship set already...but I choose to overlook that :)
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06:47<@planetmaker>don't mix transport types
06:48<@planetmaker>that makes for a pain to configure a new game
06:48<andythenorth>HEQS has gone way past that already ;)
06:48<V453000>yeah :(
06:48<andythenorth>that horse has bolted
06:48<andythenorth>horse / pony /s
06:48<@planetmaker>don't take that further, please
06:49<@planetmaker>adding all kind of transport modes to HEQS makes it less attractive
06:49<@planetmaker>rather split it into HEQS-RV, HEQS-trains, HEQS-ships, if you want
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06:49<andythenorth> hmm
06:49<V453000>+1
06:50<andythenorth>because MP games you like to restrict some transport types?
06:50<@planetmaker>not only. But because I maybe want the RV only to match *whatever*, but emphasize other aspects for boats
06:50<@planetmaker>thus one set with everything is a pain.
06:50<@planetmaker>Bad for scenario use and basically every design choice on newgrfs
06:51<@planetmaker>it removes a lot freedom to configure
06:51<V453000>yeah, for example you want HEQS road, UKRS on rails, and newships on water
06:51<V453000>would fit more like japan on rail with HEQS on road but meh ;)
06:51<andythenorth>hmm
06:51<andythenorth>this is interesting :P
06:52<andythenorth>your requirements are orthogonal to mine :D
06:52<V453000>?
06:52<andythenorth>I just want to make a set that I like :)
06:52<@planetmaker>how so, andythenorth? What is difficult to have a different set for each transport type?
06:52<andythenorth>only maintenance
06:52<V453000>well when you create a map, it is nice to have as large freedom as possible, because there arent _that_ many possiblities overall :)
06:53<andythenorth>the alternative is that I add some odd ships to FISH...which is possible
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06:53<andythenorth>but HEQS already has RV / tram / train / helicopter
06:53<V453000>:/
06:53<andythenorth>(helicopter is work in progress)
06:53<@planetmaker>woot? It has more than one train?
06:53<V453000>divide them imo
06:53<@planetmaker>:-(
06:54<@planetmaker>when did that happen?
06:54<andythenorth>it has one train ;)
06:54<andythenorth>but 1 > 0
06:54<V453000>and well ... do you think somebody would use HEQS and FISH at the same time? that would make mess, ships from there, ships from here
06:54<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, and it's a bad precedence
06:54<@planetmaker>for one it's acceptable, but I'm not quite happy with it either, I have to admit
06:55<@planetmaker>Taking it further would sadden me
06:55*andythenorth will consider
06:55<@planetmaker>it will make it quite less likely I'll use it. quite a lot
06:55<andythenorth>I'm not dead set on it
06:55<andythenorth>but if I accept your argument, I need to remove some of the existing things
06:55<@planetmaker>as it will force me on a certain style
06:57<@planetmaker>what does need removing? And... I'd call it 'moving'. Not removing ;-)
06:57<andythenorth>I'd need to do HEQS -> trams
06:57<andythenorth>and HEQS -> trains
06:57<@planetmaker>would make sense, yes
06:57<andythenorth>and HEQS -> main
06:57<andythenorth>and HEQS -> extra
06:57<@planetmaker>not needed
06:58<andythenorth>why not?
06:58<@planetmaker>or what does 'main' constitute?
06:58<andythenorth>the useful vehicles
06:58<andythenorth>the ones in 'core' currently
06:58<andythenorth>and 'extra' is the not-useful vehicles
06:58<@planetmaker>have each of these sets have that parameter and no such thing as 'main' is needed
06:58<@planetmaker>Why would you?
06:58<@planetmaker>Just independent sets.
06:59<andythenorth>;)
06:59<@planetmaker>With a somewhat shared code basis
06:59<andythenorth>I don't follow the argument
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06:59<andythenorth>if the case is we don't want to configure, then configuring should be eliminated
06:59<andythenorth>if the case is that configuring is ok, then configuring is ok
06:59<andythenorth>or is it 'some configuring is ok, but not much' ?
07:01<@planetmaker>well, I see that HEQS has parameters to adjust things, admittedly I'm not 100% up to date with their extend at the moment. It's IMHO nicer to have the vehicle types in their own NewGRFs, but keeping them have configure options is, of course, fine
07:01<@planetmaker>My mode of NewGRF selection usually is: pick landscape. Pick train sets, pick rv sets, pick planes, pick ships, pick stations, pick objects, pick other stuff
07:02<andythenorth>can you have multiple grfs in one tar?
07:02<@planetmaker>thus a joint newgrf makes breaks this coarse selection process.
07:02<@planetmaker>not on bananas
07:02<andythenorth>:(
07:03<andythenorth>I am opposed to multiple grfs because (1) I don't want to use them (2) I don't want to maintain multiple bananas entries, release threads etc
07:03<andythenorth>otherwise it would be fine
07:03<@planetmaker>(1) leads in the end to a monolithic newgrf only compatible with itself
07:03<andythenorth>I wondered if we could write a makefile that would publish 6 grfs: 1 per vehicle type + 1 composite
07:04<@planetmaker>that's possible
07:04<@planetmaker>but I'd advice against the composite newgrf. It's redundant
07:04<andythenorth>not for me
07:04<@planetmaker>For everyone
07:04<@planetmaker>;-)
07:05<andythenorth>try this from another angle
07:05<@planetmaker>adding heqs* is not much of a difference than heqs-monolithic
07:05<andythenorth>are the bulldozers really useful? I could just delete them
07:05<andythenorth>same for rail-truck
07:05<@planetmaker>bulldozers are RVs. They can just stay where they are and how they are
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07:06<andythenorth>hmm
07:06*andythenorth will think on this
07:06<@planetmaker>I don't speak here about usefulness of any vehicle.
07:06<andythenorth>the correct route isn't clear to me
07:06<@planetmaker>I speak only about the principle game design. Which IMHO is broken by newgrfs which provide several transport types
07:07<@planetmaker>Like the Japanese, they have their transport types also in separate newgrfs. That makes it nice to pick the stuff you want
07:07<@planetmaker>And IMHO it's not a concept which should be sacrificed on the sake of 'it's simpler to add only one newgrf' or 'it's simpler to maintain one release thread'
07:08<andythenorth>I could maintain one grf for me personally
07:08<@planetmaker>andythenorth, all I say (and want) is to have different transport modes in their respective newgrfs. No other change
07:08<andythenorth>and a reduced HEQS for public
07:08<@planetmaker>that's bollocks
07:08<@planetmaker>why do you personally need ONE newgrf?
07:09<andythenorth>I don't want to maintain multiple grfs, I have enough
07:09<andythenorth>and I dislike small grfs that add just one vehicle
07:09<andythenorth>I don't use them, and I find them somehow irritating
07:09<andythenorth>there are other ways to achieve same result
07:09<@planetmaker>then, as long as you only have one for the other transport types, maybe create a heqs-misc - which adds one train, 2 ships and one helicopter
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07:10<andythenorth>that's not a bad suggestion
07:10<@planetmaker>like a heqs add-on
07:10<@planetmaker>like there are ukrs add-ons
07:10<andythenorth>hmm
07:10<andythenorth>I think of all of HEQS as an add-on ;)
07:10<@planetmaker>well, yes, it is :-)
07:10<andythenorth>it was never intended to be a primary set
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07:11<@planetmaker>it's also never for me. so maybe 'add-on' was the wrong word
07:11<andythenorth>umm
07:11<andythenorth>this might be easy
07:11<andythenorth>just make the defaults 'off' for the esoteric vehicles
07:12<andythenorth>same as snowplough in one of the us sets
07:12<andythenorth>that solves the MP config?
07:12<andythenorth>I don't doubt the issue you describe btw
07:13<andythenorth>some of the vehicles I want to add are pure easter egg / eye candy
07:13<andythenorth>they don't need to be on by default
07:13<@planetmaker>hm, that might be a solution, too. If you add only one, two 'extras', leaving them off by default would work, too
07:13<@planetmaker>At least for me
07:14<andythenorth>I think that's a nice solution
07:14<@planetmaker>:-) ok
07:14<@planetmaker>it supports the lazy approach of "add newgrf, don't mind the configuration"
07:14<andythenorth>so the rail truck should be off by default?
07:14<@planetmaker>I'd say so, yes
07:14<andythenorth>I think it should
07:14<andythenorth>I've already seen someone think it was part of UKRS
07:14<@planetmaker>^ satisfied with that, too V453000 ? :-)
07:14<andythenorth>there's nothing in game to indicate which vehicle is which grf...
07:15<@planetmaker>hm, also not the debug tool?
07:15<@planetmaker>I can't check right now. For all land tiles the query tool tells you
07:16<andythenorth>interestingly the debug appears not to say
07:16<@Terkhen>I like that approach too
07:16<@planetmaker>andythenorth, that might be a feature request ;-)
07:16<andythenorth>maybe I should add a HEQS icon to buy menu
07:16<andythenorth>or a text string in buy menu
07:16<@planetmaker>or... actually it should also be visible w/o debug tools
07:16<@planetmaker>the buy menu by default doesn't need it
07:16<andythenorth>(in the info panel...)
07:16<@planetmaker>maybe
07:16<andythenorth>seems overkill
07:17<@planetmaker>but ^
07:17<@planetmaker>like a query tool for vehicles ;-)
07:17<@planetmaker>vehicle list could list it
07:17<@planetmaker>hmm hmm...
07:17<@planetmaker>well, very low priority ;-)
07:17<andythenorth>hmm
07:18<andythenorth>the challenge of YACD is much less when most secondary industry has closed down
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07:19<Wolf01>hello
07:19<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
07:20<@planetmaker>I have in my yacd game some oil rigs with 100% destination to one oil refinery. And others don#t seem to have any.
07:20<@planetmaker>I shall see what they'll do once I connect them
07:22<@planetmaker>btw, Ammler, I just wanted to mention that it's nice that the script on http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=2011:2611 updates daily :-)
07:22<Ammler>you mean nightly :-P
07:23*Ammler redirects the credits to frosch (grf2html) :-)
07:23<@planetmaker>:-)
07:24<@planetmaker>still. I use it a lot :-)
07:24<@planetmaker>no better way there to get a quick overview over a certain aspect of the 5 grf files
07:25<Ammler>that is maybe the best php (and only?) I have ever written :-)
07:25<Ammler>you can also combine ranges and grfs, btw.
07:26<@planetmaker>yes, I know. But I always will have to figure out. And usually I need only one
07:26<Ammler>just ","
07:26<andythenorth>yapf seems happy to go a long way with ships without bouys
07:27<@planetmaker>yes
07:27<Ammler>andythenorth: define "happy" ;-)
07:27<andythenorth>it doesn't complain
07:27<@planetmaker>but using buoys still will make it faster
07:27<andythenorth>or use excessive CPU
07:27<Ammler>andythenorth: how many ships?
07:28<@planetmaker>most notably they go a much straighter and a way more predicatable path
07:28<andythenorth>only 26 ships
07:28<Ammler>hmm, that's a lot
07:29<Ammler>now watch cpu usage and pause/unpause the ships
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07:30<andythenorth>yarp
07:30<andythenorth>makes a difference
07:30<andythenorth>26 is not a lot ;)
07:30<andythenorth>350 is a lot
07:30<andythenorth>my games are ship-centric
07:30<Ammler>I guess, your pc might not be able to run that many
07:31<andythenorth>yapf used to slow down badly with that many
07:32<Ammler>planetmaker: your improvements to factory are very nice, a pitty it uses 3 times the same
07:32<@planetmaker>well, yes. But that can't be changed. Only possibly in a later version of OpenGFX+ Industries
07:33<Ammler>I fear, unresolveable for base set
07:33<Ammler>:-)
07:33<@planetmaker>yes, sadly so
07:34<Ammler>well, improving construction stages aren't that worth anyway
07:34<@planetmaker>well, I think they are :-)
07:34<Ammler>that is why nobody did it yet
07:34<@planetmaker>but more important are the final stages, of course
07:35<Ammler>that is why you had to do it self :-P
07:35<@planetmaker>and it was fun to change the construction stage
07:37*andythenorth tries a game with no ISR
07:37<andythenorth>how odd
07:39<Ammler>adding isr is easy, removing is hard :-)
07:40<Ammler>I guess, the only newgrf, which really needs to be added before start are industry sets, right?
07:41<andythenorth>yeah, you can add other newgrfs at any time to a running game ;)
07:41<andythenorth>just use the newgrf menu ;)
07:41<Ammler>well, I meant adding without bad cause
07:41<andythenorth>I add during games no problem
07:42<andythenorth>removing....less advised :P
07:42<Ammler>but adding industry sets doesn't work, does it?
07:42<andythenorth>nope
07:42<andythenorth>well....it would be quite not-optimal
07:43<@planetmaker>Ammler, you could probably also do that. But *every* industry set modifies the default industries
07:43<@planetmaker>replaces some
07:43<andythenorth>here's an interesting problem: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/farms_yacd.png
07:43<Ammler>I thought, the issue is more with cargo
07:43<andythenorth>I want to connect the farms (grey) to the stockyard (purple)
07:43<andythenorth>in a yacd game
07:44<Ammler>saw some strange screens about
07:44<@planetmaker>you could probably do with an add-on. And you should not mess with cargos
07:44<andythenorth>and I don't have decent trucks yet
07:44<andythenorth>so what should I do?
07:44<andythenorth>one train just running back and forth with timetabled waits?
07:44<andythenorth>multiple trams?
07:44<andythenorth>a feeder system?
07:44<Ammler>correctly I should have said, the only exception are cargosets :-)
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07:45<Ammler>which most industry sets are too
07:45<@planetmaker>Ammler, possibly yes, but I haven't dwelled on it sufficiently to know its intricacies
07:45<Ammler>I still hope, andythenorth will sometime make firs light with no cargo changes :-)
07:45<andythenorth>what would be gained?
07:46<andythenorth>compared to say, opengfx+ industries?
07:46<Ammler>your industries
07:46<@planetmaker>different chains
07:46<andythenorth>but they accept / produce different cargos to default...
07:46<@planetmaker>But I guess ^ makes it hard / not worthwhile
07:46<Ammler>might be
07:47<@planetmaker>Rather have OpenGFX+ Industries define additional layouts 'stolen' from FIRS. But that'd be probably 2.0 or so
07:47<Ammler>:-)
07:48<@Yexo>opengfx+industries also changes the cargoes
07:48<Ammler>hmm, does it?
07:48<@planetmaker>hm, indeed, it does. Has to.
07:48<@Yexo>it has to, cargoes from arctic are by default not available in temperate
07:49<Ammler>so it does add cargos, does it also change?
07:49<@Yexo>yes, depending on the climate
07:49<Ammler>sounds wrong
07:49<@Yexo>what does it matter?
07:50<Ammler>maybe we have different things in mind
07:50<Ammler>is it possible to add ogfx+industries to a existing default game?
07:50<@Yexo>an existing game with industries? not a good idea
07:50<@Yexo>same as for other industry sets
07:50<@Yexo>it might work to some extend
07:51<Ammler>hmm, you didn't follow the discussion
07:51<Ammler>:-P
07:51<@Yexo>not completely, no
07:52<Ammler>the only newgrfs, you can't add to a running games are those with cargo changes, right?
07:52<@Yexo>no
07:52<@Yexo>cargo changes are possible after a game started
07:53<@Yexo>it's probably not a good idea though if there are any industries in the game that make use of those cargoes already
07:54<Ammler>right, so if you add newgrfs with cargo changes, you have to remove the existing "bad" industries
07:54<@Terkhen>opengfx+ industries redefines almost everything (cargos, industries and most industry tiles); I don't know what happens if you add it to a running game but it probably will create a mess
07:54<@Terkhen>the industries have the override and substitute properties properly set, though
07:55<@Yexo>if all tiles also have the override property set, it might work somewhat
07:55<@Terkhen>they don't :)
07:55<@Yexo>in general I'd advise strongly against adding it to a game with existing industries
07:55<peter1139>i guess i need to checkout yacd, right?
07:55<@Terkhen>hmm... but only industry tiles without cargo acceptance are missing override (and redefinition)
07:56<Ammler>does that matter for already built industries?
07:58<Ammler>Yexo: Terkhen, maybe there could be a reset_industry like reset_vehicles, so if you add industry set, it does replace the existing
07:58<@Yexo>that can only work as long as there are no industries on the map
07:59<@Terkhen>I'm not sure if it would work in most cases
07:59<Ammler>Yexo: then there is no need
07:59<@Terkhen>reset_vehicles fixes existing vehicles?
07:59<Ammler>Terkhen: yep
07:59<@Yexo>sure? I thought it only reset the newgrf ID allocation
07:59<Ammler>well, at least it did
07:59<Ammler>Yexo: isn't that a fix?
07:59<@Yexo>sometimes
08:00<Ammler>:-)
08:01<@Yexo>oh, I was thinking about reset_enginepool
08:02<@Yexo>I can't think of a useful "resetengines" alternative for industries though
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08:33<Ammler>Yexo: reset industries with the new ones?
08:34<Ammler>according to subsitute
08:34<@Yexo>reset what exactly?
08:34<@Yexo>there is no way a reset of the industry tiles could work
08:34<Ammler>all properities except tiles
08:34<@Yexo>so you'll have broken graphics
08:34<@Yexo>which means bug reports from users -> useless feature
08:35<Ammler>hmm, then remove the industry and place the new one on same place if possible
08:36<Ammler>in worst case all industries are gone, which is not that bad either
08:40<@Yexo>I honestly don't see the point of trying to do all that
08:40<@Yexo>just don't mess with newgrfs in savegames
08:43<Ammler>Yexo: well, we don't need that official speak here ;-)
08:44<Ammler>the issue is mainly with scenarios
08:44<@Yexo><Yexo> I honestly don't see the point of trying to do all that <- that still stands
08:44<@Yexo>yes, I know the issue is mainly with scenarios
08:44<@Yexo>if you want to add an industry newgrf later, don't add any industries at all
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>a remove_all_industries command ;)
08:46<Ammler>yep :-)
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>(well, that is useful enough to also be in the industry window of the scenario editor)
08:47<Ammler>Yexo: also if you make the scenario self, there is no such issue ;-)
08:53<@Terkhen>I coded something like that for towns and industries before being convinced that an alternate scenario format would be a better solution
08:53<@Terkhen>it did not work very well
08:59<@Terkhen>hmm... I could rescue the "remove" parts of the queue
08:59<Ammler>Terkhen: remove al?
08:59<@Terkhen>regenerate
09:00<@Terkhen>removing worked fine, but it was only console commands
09:00<Ammler>well, remove all would be a good start and not really hurt
09:04*andythenorth has been thinking about FIRS supplies
09:04<andythenorth>I have half of an ide
09:04<andythenorth>+a
09:04<andythenorth>but meanwhile
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>half ideas are dangerous weapons in your hands
09:04<andythenorth>two rows of identical icons in transparency window?
09:05<andythenorth>crowd-sourced GUIs do not convince me :|
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>nah, that's silly
09:05<andythenorth>it's one of the most stupidest things I've seen
09:05<andythenorth>design should be taught in school
09:05<andythenorth>along with many other things that aren't, but we have to then teach ourselves to get through life
09:06<andythenorth>school was almost entirely pointless as far as I can recall
09:06<Eddi|zuHause># Your face it haunts
09:06<Eddi|zuHause># my once pleasant dreams
09:06<Eddi|zuHause># Your voice it chased away
09:06<Eddi|zuHause># all the sanity in me
09:06*andythenorth shouldn't be criticising other peopl
09:06<andythenorth>e
09:06<Ammler>who else?
09:07<andythenorth>at least until (a) he finishes a word before hitting enter key
09:07<andythenorth>and (b) doesn't write sentences like 'the most stupidest things I've seen'
09:07<andythenorth>which makes perfect sense, but it stupid in multiple ways
09:07<andythenorth>it / is /s
09:07*andythenorth has a head cold - blame it on that
09:08<andythenorth>FIRS supplies
09:08<andythenorth>the unit could be much larger
09:08<Ammler>where does that sed word? :-)
09:08<andythenorth>like 'consignment' or such
09:08<Ammler>mäh
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>what the hell is a 'consignment'?
09:09<andythenorth>'more'
09:09<andythenorth>it's only half an idea so far
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm against it
09:09<@Belugas>hello
09:09<andythenorth>I like the '1 per month' behaviour, mostly because it's same as towns
09:09<andythenorth>but I want to be able to deliver supplies with bigger vehicles
09:09<Ammler>why?
09:09<@Terkhen>the current behaviour is simple and keeps micromagement to a minimum
09:10<Ammler>you can transport other things, if you like bigger vehicles
09:10<andythenorth>it would amuse me to add things like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_lift_ship
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like a progressive value, like "for every production increase, demand 1 more per month"
09:10<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's possible, likely even
09:11<Ammler>maybe 1 per 2monts
09:12<Ammler>or 1 per year
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>also, "within the last 30 days" is better than "within this month"
09:13<Ammler>something else is there a opensource alternative to the anno series?
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09:14<Eddi|zuHause>i never played any of the anno games...
09:14<Ammler>oh, there is openanno
09:14<Ammler>but down :-)
09:16<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: the most successful German game :-o
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>so? i already played siedler, so i have german games covered :p
09:16<@Terkhen>that sounds interesting, but it would need too much micromanagement IMO
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: why? you'd still need quite some time to not get along with one cargo wagon per month, and at that point, you have so much increase that you need to adjust the general transport capacity anyway
09:18<aber>unknown-horizons in heavy development
09:19<@Terkhen>because right now I can keep my supplies capacity constant and I don't need to come back to it once it works
09:19<andythenorth>Terkhen: I like that too
09:22<@Terkhen>with increasing requirements for supplies, I would need to mirror any changes of the main network in the supplies network, for me it would be like duplicating work
09:27<peter1139>hmm, right, yacd is hard :p
09:28<andythenorth>yarp
09:28<Ammler>Terkhen: andythenorth: maybe partial unload?
09:29<@Terkhen>how would that work?
09:29*andythenorth wonders how yacd and supplies will work together
09:29<andythenorth>haven't got that far in my game yet
09:29<@Terkhen>I'm starting my yacd test game now too :P
09:29<Ammler>ah indeed, yacd already would cover that
09:30<Ammler>else a order setting like unload x% only
09:30<@Terkhen>only passengers until I understand how it works
09:31<Ammler>e.q you full load and go to 5 industies and unload 20% on each
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09:33<andythenorth>Ammler: I think yacd works differently to that ;)
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09:34<andythenorth>partial unload isn't needed
09:34<andythenorth>or is that your point?
09:35<Ammler>how else does yacd work then?
09:36<andythenorth>'magic' :D
09:37<Ammler>you will have automatically 1/5 supplies for your 5 industries, won't you?
09:38<andythenorth>in the yacd case that's not my choice
09:38<andythenorth>yacd decides for me
09:38<Ammler>yep
09:38<Ammler>but that is what yacd does, dosn't it?
09:38<Ammler>it does partially unload
09:38<andythenorth>yes and no
09:39<Ammler>just that the parts are splitted on generating already
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09:46<@Terkhen>hmm... I'm starting to understand yacd
09:46<@Terkhen>which allows me to understand why I'm close to bankruptcy
09:47<@Terkhen>passengers will pick up a bus if it will get them close to their destination?
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09:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes
09:49<@Terkhen>nice :)
09:50<andythenorth>none of you played railroad tycoon 3?
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>nope
09:50<andythenorth>ho
09:50<andythenorth>it's quite similar in some ways
09:50<@Terkhen>no
09:50<andythenorth>cargo packets with destinations
09:50<andythenorth>the problem is we don't have auto-consist :)
09:50<andythenorth>or shunting
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>i played railroad tycoon 1 for a while, but i didn't fully understand it back then...
09:51<andythenorth>rt 1 and 2 were more like to ttd
09:51<@Terkhen>hmm... this could help me enjoy building passenger networks again
09:52<andythenorth>it does renew the game :)
09:52*andythenorth might have to redesign FIRS though :P
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09:56<andythenorth>making money on PAX is very easy
09:57<andythenorth>just don't connect towns that don't have much traffic between them, or....you lose :P
09:59<@Terkhen>what things in FIRS would need changes?
09:59<andythenorth>production values
09:59<andythenorth>among other things
10:01<@Terkhen>would these changes conflict with non YACD games?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's a question of balance... i tend to think production values are generally too high
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>although YACDest might solve that while fewer destinations are connected
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid to start a YACDest game, because it won't have all the comfortable bits of chills patch pack...
10:03<Ammler>does it split the cargo to all possible destinations or is there a kind of threshold?
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>especially timetables
10:03<andythenorth>4t / month is not a lot of cargo to ship 200 tiles
10:04<andythenorth>and with production ratios...it can result in no secondary cargo
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10:04<andythenorth>Ammler: try a game and see ;)
10:04<Ammler>andythenorth: too many destinations, so the issue is too many industries
10:05<Ammler>not too less production :-)
10:05<Lucas>Hi
10:05<@Terkhen>hi Lucas
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10:06<Ammler>andythenorth: I prefer talking about something I just guess instead to find out self ;-)
10:06<Lucas>I have a small question. Does the version of OS X already exist the possibility of automatic conversion of trains on the new models?
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10:06<Ammler>Lucas: the different arch versions don't differ in gameplay fucntions
10:07<Lucas>Ek sien ...
10:07<Ammler>so openttd 1.1.0 for windows plays equal to your osx version, think about multiplayer
10:07<Lucas>I see...
10:08<Ammler>and of course autorenew/replace exists for ages already
10:08<Ammler>with better and worse working versions :-)
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't start a game in YACDest. it quickly displays a landscape with roads, and then returns to the main menu
10:12<Lucas>Ammler: no autorenew but automatyiclly buy better version of train and repleace line
10:12<Lucas>is it possible?
10:13<Ammler>no, that isn't possible
10:13<Lucas>TTD Patch could do this
10:13<Ammler>I am just aware of newgrf feature, not implemented in openttd which can that,
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10:13<Ammler>Lucas: not ttdp, newgrf
10:13<Ammler>afaik
10:14<Ammler>e.q. there is a newgrf for dbset
10:14<Lucas>nowgrf - whats the name of this?
10:14<Lucas>can find many newgrf files in update section
10:15<Ammler>as said, this newgrf feature isn't supported by openttd
10:15<Ammler>and it is still not automatically, it is defined by the newgrf
10:16<Lucas>so i have to change it manully :(
10:16<Ammler>you can use autoreplace
10:17<Ammler>what is bad about that?
10:17<Lucas>this only auto renew trains
10:17<Ammler>no
10:18<Ammler>autoreplace is the gui thing, where you can select vehicles you want to replace with
10:18<Lucas>because u have to buy new trains manually for example electric ones
10:18<Ammler>autorenew is just a adv. setting
10:18<Lucas>where I can setup autoreplace?
10:19<Ammler>@man autoreplace
10:20<Ammler><Webster> Replace vehicles - OpenTTD - http://wiki.openttd.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=autoreplace
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>somehow generating games with alpine climate is broken
10:21<Ammler>ogfx+landscape?
10:21<Lucas>thanks
10:21<Lucas>i will check it
10:21<Ammler>I am quite sure, you won't miss the newgrf feature
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling it's the new house-startdate-thing
10:23<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: if not ogfx+, didn't you hack the other newgrf already anyway? :-)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>it works with start date 1931
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: got a town name "GroßHerzogsingen" <-- missing a space?
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the point is, it worked before, and now it's broken
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: newgrfs shouldn't get broken by code changes, unless there's a very good reason
10:32<Ammler>like remove flib :-P
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: the real question is: why does the house-startdate not work
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>alpine doesn't actually add any houses, so why is it different than temperate
10:34<Ammler>it does replace them
10:34<Ammler>maybe that is done like with industries, substitute and remove the old
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10:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but it doesn't change property 0A
10:39<Ammler>the difference is from trunk to yacd or just newer nightly?
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>difference from old trunk to new trunk
10:44*andythenorth can't figure out a good strategy for freight in yacd
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10:51<andythenorth>hmm
10:51<andythenorth>why would my train be unloading freight at intermediate stations when it's headed to the endpoint destination for these cargo packets?
10:52<andythenorth>that's unhelpful
10:52<andythenorth>I don't want to use non-stop, that shouldn't be needed
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10:57<@Terkhen>IMO that's a bug, the cargo should stay if the present vehicle is going to its destination
10:58<Rubidium>Terkhen: depends... maybe there's a quicker route from there
10:58<@Yexo>that's non-trivial, what should happen if a vehicle goes A>B>C>D>C>A, at B it picks up cargo for A, brings it to C
10:58<@Yexo>should it unload or continue?
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>pathfinder should get a penalty for exiting the vehicle
10:59<@Terkhen>^
10:59<Rubidium>and as it generates cargo with 4 characteristics, it'll make different choices per packet regarding staying in the vehicle or not
10:59<andythenorth>the vehicle is going A>B>C
10:59<andythenorth>C is the destination
10:59<andythenorth>it's dropping off at B
11:00<@Yexo>yes, that case is simple, it should stay on the vehicle (at least if there is no alternative faster connection to C)
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but it might be one of the balancing effects
11:00<@Terkhen>is there a different path for going from B to C in your game, andy?
11:00<Rubidium>so... when PFs are involved: savegame!
11:00<andythenorth>not for this cargo
11:00<andythenorth>there is a partial cargo
11:00<andythenorth>partial link sorry
11:01<andythenorth>there are two trains on the ABC route
11:01<andythenorth>I wonder if train 1 is dropping at B because train 2 passes through there too
11:02<andythenorth>and in other news
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11:02<andythenorth>secondary industry closing sucks
11:02<andythenorth>dunno why I turned that on
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11:03<Ammler>andythenorth: then you implemented it wrongly ;-)
11:03<andythenorth>pfff
11:03<andythenorth>you try then :P
11:03-!-pugi [~pugi@p4FCC5AF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
11:04<Ammler>or define "sucks"
11:05<@Belugas>short for succubus?
11:05<@Belugas>underwear for feet? (with wrong spelling)
11:09<andythenorth>Ammler: leaves my map with only one of each secondary industry
11:09<andythenorth>years before I have a chance to connect them
11:09<Ammler>then you enabled closing but didn't enable respawn?
11:14<andythenorth>how do I do that?
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but only one target is better for YACDest :p
11:19<andythenorth>my game with the weird routing: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54253&p=943907#p943907
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11:37<andythenorth>hmm
11:38<andythenorth>the trains from A>C that are dropping at B...
11:38<andythenorth>are picking up at B on their way from C>A
11:38<andythenorth>so I guess non-stop is the only option :P
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11:40<Eddi|zuHause>using B as explicit order or automatic order?
11:40<andythenorth>automatic
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>seems that part is buggy then
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>try explicit order
11:41<andythenorth>yup
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11:45<Ammler>andythenorth: but it is a bug
11:45<andythenorth>maybe
11:45<andythenorth>or I misunderstood
11:46<Ammler>what wpuld happen, if you have e.g. 2 coal mines and one drop in your line?
11:46<andythenorth>not sure
11:46<andythenorth>I need to try some of that
11:46<andythenorth>I don't have enough industry left on my map :P
11:46<Ammler>but for sure you know, what _should_ happen :-)
11:48*andythenorth wants to start a new game
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11:55<Eddi|zuHause>i have the weird feeling with "normal" industries i just got fewer industries than with "few" industries
11:55<andythenorth>I have changed my game to 'high'
11:55<andythenorth>new game time
11:56<andythenorth>plenty of money, but the fun disappeared quickly
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>"225.180.088.795.136.024% to local destinations"
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>great ;)
11:59<@Terkhen>good luck with that delivery :)
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12:02<Markk>Is there a way to share infrastructure now?
12:02<Markk>Like rails?
12:03<@Terkhen>Markk: there have been many patches that try to implement infrastructure sharing, but none of them was finished
12:04<Markk>ah
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12:19<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that's a low percentage compared to mine ;-)
12:20<@planetmaker>and yes, that town name mentioned earlier is missing a space
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i think the station gui should allow different display methods similar to CargoDist. in CargoDist i usually show via-destination-source, in YACDest i'd probably want via-transfer-destination(-source)
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>"via" as primary display is the easiest to sort out bottlenecks (apart from graphical capacity view)
12:26<Rubidium>doesn't one of the buttons already toggle through a number of display methods?
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>right, i overlooked that
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>but it doesn't remember the setting
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>but gtg now...
12:32<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Looks like automatic orders are borked right now, probably because of some of the last trunk commits for automatic orders. Got a bit too few testing I supposed as I usually play with non-stop orders :)
12:33<andythenorth>okey dokey
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12:37*andythenorth lost another YACD game
12:38<andythenorth>time for a new one...
12:38<@planetmaker>how do you loose them?
12:38<andythenorth>in this case, trying to start with coal
12:38<@planetmaker>hm, well, that might be more difficult.
12:38<andythenorth>I had quite a lot of mines and secondary destinations close together
12:38<@planetmaker>I haven't yet tested industries too much, but PAX seems easier for starters
12:39<andythenorth>I thought I could run a couple of big trains back and forth along a main line
12:39<andythenorth>with smaller feeders
12:39<@planetmaker>but I started with low industry density
12:39<andythenorth>I have high
12:39<andythenorth>but I didn't check destinations before building routes :P
12:40<Ammler>if a destination closes, doens't the cargo, which was meant there be splitted to the remaing dests?
12:40<andythenorth>yes
12:41<Ammler>so you were lucky, the secondaries closes
12:42<Ammler>also maybe you should start without firs :-)
12:42<andythenorth>I think manifest trains are going to fail for primary cargo
12:43<andythenorth>so now I'm trying a different approach
12:43<andythenorth>I want to do things like drop all wood to a log sort, then ship it out on point-point unit trains
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13:10<andythenorth>^ kind of works
13:10<andythenorth>hilly map, weight multiplier 6, 1881 with NARS 2
13:10<andythenorth>I'm not making a profit :P
13:10<andythenorth>but the cargo moves ok
13:13<andythenorth>hmm
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13:16<andythenorth>michi_cc: maybe I overlooked this in the thread....
13:16<andythenorth>...relationship of station rating and % transported is changed from default?
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13:19<+michi_cc>% transported simply counts everything transported (including destinations that you don't service). Your stations will only get cargo according to the station rating, just like in plain trunk.
13:20<Ammler>michi_cc: how can be >100%?
13:21<+michi_cc>If you mean the percentage behind each destination line: ignore it. It will go away in the next release as it doesn't show what you might think.
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13:27<andythenorth>I'm wondering why 4t out of 36t is transported at a forest
13:27<andythenorth>station rating is 42%
13:27<andythenorth>there are vehicles waiting
13:27<andythenorth>might be be my mistake .... I'll watch it some more
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13:28<andythenorth>michi_cc: cargo production pays no attention to quality of upstream links?
13:28<andythenorth>i.e. distributed amount only depends on rating of first station?
13:29<andythenorth>hmm
13:29<andythenorth>maybe my maths is just bad
13:30<andythenorth>this month I get 11t out of 36t
13:30<andythenorth>vehicle has been waiting for last 3 months
13:30<andythenorth>station rating is currently 58%
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13:32*andythenorth builds some pax routes to get some money
13:32<andythenorth>"this channel brought to you by andythenorth's stream of consciousness"
13:32*andythenorth mistakes irc for twitter
13:33<+michi_cc>There's a subtle bug in the path cost limiting code that causes more paths as intended to be excluded from the suitable paths. I've already fixed that localy. You can work around for now by increasing economy.cargodest.max_route_penalty[0]
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13:34<+michi_cc>Double or something like that. If you get more cargo then, that's the reason.
13:35<@planetmaker>hehe, andythenorth , obviously AIAI finds the Gmund road vehicle a sensible means to transport goods
13:35<andythenorth>and why not :P
13:35<Ammler>michi_cc: if you ask Rubidium to make binaries and you won't use openttd.org, you have a go from us to use bundles.openttdcoop.org :-)
13:35<andythenorth>give it some trailers, it might be excellent :P
13:35<@planetmaker>from the oil refinery to downtown
13:36<andythenorth>what date?
13:36<Ammler>gäll planetmaker? :-P
13:36<+michi_cc>Ammler: Thanks for the offer, but I can always host at my own site.
13:36<andythenorth>michi_cc: what would be a suitable amount? 400?
13:36<@planetmaker>Ammler: sure. I offered it already. And Rb suggested it ;-)
13:36<Ammler>do you already?
13:36<@planetmaker>but there aren't.
13:37<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Yeah, looks good. If you have very long routes maybe even 600. Just remember to reset it when the fixed version is out :)
13:37<@planetmaker>but I think it makes sense to have nightlies for YACD
13:37*andythenorth will forget :P
13:38<@planetmaker>michi_cc: people might recall the devzone as cargodist is already there ;-)
13:38<+michi_cc>Let's squash the major bugs first, then we can do nightlies.
13:38<@planetmaker>and the CF's key
13:38<@planetmaker>i.e. it's no real setup work for anyone
13:38<@planetmaker>and already scripted
13:39<andythenorth>would definitely be nice to have a default timetabled wait :P
13:39<Ammler>I guess, the CF supports other locations also without script changes
13:39<@planetmaker>possibly
13:39<Ammler>just needs a scp location afaik
13:39<Ammler>or rsync...
13:40<Ammler>well, the offer is made, up to you :-)
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13:42<andythenorth>michi_cc: I set 400 and ran it for a couple of months. 16t out of 48t. Station rating is 74%
13:42<andythenorth>Destination is next station on a simple A>B route
13:42<andythenorth>using trams
13:43<Rubidium>Ammler: feels like there are more outstanding offers than actually being built binaries ;)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22377 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 3 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:45<+michi_cc>andythenorth: src/cargodest.cpp line 765, replace DistanceManhattan by DistanceSquare.
13:46<+michi_cc>andythenorth: If you still get not enough cargo with that change you might have found a new bug :)
13:46*andythenorth is happy to serve ;)
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13:47<+michi_cc>Oh, and if you say simple tram service, is it town local or between towns/industries?
13:47<andythenorth>primary industry > secondary industry
13:49<+michi_cc>Okay, there you should be able to get everything. Town local traffic on the other hand will always have some part that you won't be able to transport due to source and dest tile being too near.
13:51<andythenorth>michi_cc: with the change to DistanceSquare I have 32t of 48t against a 73% station rating ;)
13:51<andythenorth>works better according to my maths
13:51<Ammler>Rubidium: not aware of another outstanding offer :-)
13:53-!-ZirconiumX [561b9caa@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
13:53<Rubidium>that patch pack
13:53<ZirconiumX>hello all
13:54<ZirconiumX>What is the AI API function for the end of a list
13:54<ZirconiumX>.End() doesn't work -neither does .Finish()
13:54-!-Lakie [~Lakie@82.152.250.119] has quit [Quit: bbiab]
13:54<ZirconiumX> while (!townlist.Finish())
13:54<ZirconiumX>is my code in question
13:55<andythenorth>why does engine pool deserve to remain in advanced settings?
13:55<andythenorth>just enable it by default
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14:00<@planetmaker>michi_cc: I just fond an oddity where the train stops loading for some reason. See forums thread
14:03<+michi_cc>planetmaker: Online conent doesn't find the used version of german townnames and wallyweb objects
14:05<@planetmaker>ah, sorry, thought they were. Here they are: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/townnames_objects.zip
14:06<@planetmaker>and forgot the townnames
14:07<@planetmaker>anything else missing?
14:11<+michi_cc>german-townsnames.grf is still missing
14:12<LordAro>anybody like to help with another bash issue? http://pastebin.com/dYevMzwu <-- line 15
14:13*Zuu_ wonders why he can't ctrl+click on orders to go to the order location
14:13<Zuu_> /orders/timetable lines/
14:17<@planetmaker>hm... still?
14:17<@planetmaker>it's not the one within the linked zip?
14:17<andythenorth>michi_cc: that fix has flooded my network with cargo :o :D
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14:18<+michi_cc>OpenTTD says it isn't. Well, it works without, who cares about proper town names :)
14:19<@planetmaker>hm, try this: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/german-townnames.grf
14:20<@planetmaker>it's mine, I may distribute it without readme ;-)
14:20<frosch123>so, yacd does not prefer towns starting with H ? :p
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14:20<andythenorth>michi_cc: got another interesting problem
14:21<andythenorth>got an industry which is distributing cargo somehow
14:21<andythenorth>but not to the only station nearby
14:21<andythenorth>so I don't know where it's going :P
14:21<+michi_cc>planetmaker: Okay, bug found. The consecutive orders 4 and 1 have the same station, which confused the route pre-fill from orders. When I exclude that from pre-fill and cycle the orders once it loads the cargo.
14:22<@planetmaker>click on the destination in the industry window
14:22<@planetmaker>michi_cc: didn't get better when I change that, though
14:22<+michi_cc>andythenorth: save?
14:22<@planetmaker>though... hm, I didn't cycle then
14:22<+michi_cc>planetmaker: toggle non-stop on an order, that retriggers the pre-fill, and then cycle once
14:22<@planetmaker>ah
14:28<ZirconiumX>You get slightly worried - when OpenTTD gives
14:29<ZirconiumX>Your script made an error: the index 'AIAbstractList' does not exist
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14:29<ZirconiumX>I think I should revert to 1.0API
14:30-!-ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:32<ZirconiumX>Yexo, Zuu_, Could you help me with that
14:32<ZirconiumX>the AIAbstractList problem
14:32<Zuu_>On forums?
14:32<ZirconiumX> townlist.Sort(AIAbstractList.SORT_BY_VALUE, false);
14:32<ZirconiumX>is the line
14:32<frosch123>http://noai.openttd.org/docs/1.1.0/ai__changelog_8hpp.html <- ZirconiumX
14:32<Zuu_>Which API version do you use?
14:33<Zuu_>IIRC AIAbstractList was removed in the 1.1 API.
14:33<Zuu_>If you however have told OpenTTD to use 1.0 or 0.7 and you get this error, then it is a bug in OpenTTD.
14:33-!-TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
14:34<ZirconiumX>bug with 1.0API and 0.7API
14:34-!-Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd
14:34<Zuu_>Also notice that if you have told OpenTTD that you use 1.1 but use a library written for the 1.0 API, you can get errors like this as the library will run in the AI scope and not in a scope of its own.
14:35<ZirconiumX>fixed in 1.1API
14:35<andythenorth>michi_cc: save posted
14:35<Zuu_>Not fixed, chenged
14:35<ZirconiumX>but I think this is a bug
14:35<ZirconiumX>thanks Yexo and Zuu
14:36<Zuu_>In < 1.1 AIAbstractList existed, but in 1.1 and later it has been removed.
14:36<Zuu_>The members of AIAbstractList has been moved to AIList.
14:37<ZirconiumX>I have a feeling the 'simulator' has a bug
14:37<andythenorth>michi_cc: industries recalculate destinations, according to link quality? (and how often)?
14:38<ZirconiumX>@calc 26*26
14:38<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: 676
14:39<ZirconiumX>D:
14:39<ZirconiumX>maybe not
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14:39<+michi_cc>The recalculate the weight for each destination per month (but not the actual destination), but only according to stockpile and production of the target. Your service has no influence at all on the destination chooser.
14:40<+michi_cc>Hmm, I wonder when the first one will post to the forum asking how to merge YACD and cargodist...
14:41<andythenorth>how does production at target affect weighting?
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14:44<Ammler>planetmaker: you should use bananas grfs :-P
14:44<+michi_cc>more production -> higher weight
14:45<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes and no. I can't bananas every version of my grfs.
14:46<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Re your savegame: The forst is inside the catchment area of Snoozeweed Valley, so the cargo is directly going there. Docks have a catchment of 5 tiles (which means the whole station gets catchment 5).
14:46-!-Zuu_ is now known as Zuu
14:46<andythenorth>I thought so
14:46<andythenorth>but game doesn't show me that
14:46<andythenorth>it's the issue with station catchments being not what players expect?
14:47<Zuu>michi_cc: Forgot to say on forum, but I very much like the work you've done with YACD.
14:47<+michi_cc>Probably, but that's a trunk problem as well. YACD does penalize stations further away from the source tile, it's just that the tram link is considered more expensive in this specific case.
14:48<andythenorth>I made a graphic of it once: http://tt-foundry.com/misc/station_catchment_supply.png/
14:49<andythenorth>so dock makes my station catchment 5 tiles from each tile?
14:49-!-ctibor [~quassel@77.48.228.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:49<andythenorth>might as well scrap that tram :P
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14:50<+michi_cc>If you make the link faster, for example by moving the tram stops at Valley to the two tiles nearer to woods or getting a faster tram, that might be enough to be better than the distance penalty.
14:50<andythenorth>I don't have a faster tram ;)
14:51<andythenorth>although that is in my power to fix
14:51<andythenorth>this is fun ;)
14:52<+michi_cc>But yes, the station catchment is the biggest catchment of all station parts (so a bus stop connected to an airport will get a large catchment.)
14:52<+michi_cc>Zuu: Thanks.
14:53<andythenorth>the freight tactics do work
14:53<andythenorth>YACD makes quite a realistic + fun logging network
14:54<andythenorth>although I'm losing money due to weak trains :P
14:54*planetmaker finally found use for big oil tankers: link between two regional oil terminals ;-)
14:54<@planetmaker>thanks to FISH 1k tons can be shipped at once
14:54<andythenorth>apparently larger ones are needed :P
14:55<@planetmaker>no, they aren't
14:55<@planetmaker>it hasn't yet picked up a single drop of oil :-P
14:55<andythenorth>planetmaker: you need those with 10m liters capacity :P
14:55<@planetmaker>it's currently just telling the oil rigs on the other part of the map: a connection exists
14:55<@Belugas>fish oil?
14:55<DanMacK>Is there a binary of YACD available?
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14:57<andythenorth>DanMacK: windows?
14:57<@planetmaker>Belugas: maybe also that ;-)
14:57<Zuu>planetmaker: Has the helicopter oilrig bug been fixed in the last bananas OpenGFX industries? Anyway, I'm not going to fiddle with the NewGRFs midgame ;-) So the oilrig people have to live with ferries.
14:57<andythenorth>what's the bug? :o
14:57<@planetmaker>hm, what heli oil rig bug?
14:57<@planetmaker>ah, you mean no station anymore? yes
14:58<Zuu>That you can't select an oilrig as destination for an helicopter
14:58<andythenorth>but you can route ships?
14:58<@planetmaker>I didn't try that. But it has an air station
14:58<Zuu>Ships work
14:58<andythenorth>unlikely to be a newgrf bug
14:58*andythenorth would be highly surprised
14:58<@Belugas>:)
14:59<Zuu>hmm
14:59<Zuu>I don't even have OpenGFX+ industries loaded...
14:59<@planetmaker>hm, I like the auto-cargo of CHIPS :-)
14:59<@planetmaker>Zuu: I do. Let's see
14:59<Zuu>Only Landscape + Trains + Vehicles + Airports + Trees
15:00<Zuu>Landscape 0.2.1, Trains 0.2.4, Vehicles r80, Airports r73, Trees 0.2.2 - and Aviators Aircraft v1.81
15:00<andythenorth>planetmaker: if you've found a way to *break* the water-station tile at rigs, please let me know
15:00<andythenorth>it would be most useful
15:00<@planetmaker>works, Zuu
15:01<Zuu>Uhm, forgive me. I must have clicked on the wrong tile.
15:01<andythenorth>Zuu: what icons are in the station sign?
15:01<Zuu>It works now.
15:01<andythenorth>planetmaker: CHIPS "the station set for lazy people"
15:02<Zuu>I just recalled reading about a such bug and stoped to early when I couldn't click on the oilrig. :-)
15:02<DanMacK>Andy, Yes
15:02<DanMacK>Windows
15:02<@planetmaker>My testing and fun selection of NewGRFs: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/171/
15:02<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the bug was caused because I accidentaly rewrote the special oil rig tile; there was no ship station and no air station
15:02<andythenorth>ho
15:03<@Terkhen>the bug is fixed in 0.2.0
15:03<V453000>pm: uk houses? :p
15:03<@Terkhen>well, not accidentaly, I just was not aware of what would happen :)
15:03<@planetmaker>ah, let's see
15:03-!-Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
15:03<andythenorth>DanMacK: page 2 in the YACD thread
15:03<V453000>:) thx
15:04<@planetmaker>V453000: Town and Industry - UK houses Beta 0.3
15:04<@planetmaker>do you find it with that?
15:05<V453000>yeah
15:05<V453000>thanks
15:05<V453000>what a name :D
15:05<@planetmaker>you're welcome
15:07<V453000>holy cow O_o I am just being kept surprised how awesomely detailed graphics pikka makes
15:07<V453000>just masterpiece
15:07*Zuu should go and grab CHIPS
15:07*andythenorth needs to make MAYO next
15:07<@Terkhen>what's MAYO?
15:08<andythenorth>dunno
15:08*Zuu thinks more selfexplaining names would be useful to new players.
15:08<@Terkhen>an space set? :)
15:08<andythenorth>screw new players :P
15:08<@Terkhen>with space stuff
15:09<andythenorth>Zuu: suggest some alternatives for my sets then :D, eg.
15:09<andythenorth>FIRS Industry Replacement Set
15:09<andythenorth>CHIPS Improves Players Stations
15:09<andythenorth>FISH Is Ships
15:09<__ln__>Terkhen: una preguntita: why do my dictionaries say "el Estado" is written with a capital E?
15:10<Zuu>Written out they work for new players. FISH is also good as it has a connection to sea/ships also when written only as "FISH".
15:10<@Terkhen>__ln__: that's strange
15:10<andythenorth>I mostly write them out ;)
15:10<@Terkhen>it's usually written "estado"
15:11*andythenorth thinks improving bananas would do more for new players
15:11<@Terkhen>but capitalizing it in the middle of a sentence... I don't remember seeing that :P
15:11<andythenorth>I would have helped with that...then this YACD thing got released :P
15:11<Zuu>well, as long as you set tags as well as writing out the names, it soundn't be a big issue to find the sets.
15:12<__ln__>Terkhen: thanks, i'll use the lowercase versión then.
15:13<@planetmaker>he, meanwhile the big oil shuttle is my ship with the biggest earnings :-)
15:14<andythenorth>planetmaker: I could code you a bigger one...for even bigger earnings
15:14<andythenorth>I have plans to add a 1404t version to later FISH
15:14<andythenorth>players 'know' that bigger ships are better
15:15<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but it's not yet used up to capacity
15:16<@planetmaker>I just bought it in order of "fire and forget" that water link :-P
15:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: you're clearly not using a realistic scenario
15:16<@planetmaker>not?
15:16<andythenorth>or industry set
15:16<@planetmaker>I use OpenGFX+ Industries
15:16<andythenorth>where are your 15k production oil wells, in clusters of 20?
15:16*andythenorth waves vaguely in direction of Amazon Kindle
15:16<@planetmaker>but... 'realistic'... the oil wells produce each about 70 ... 200k liters per month
15:17<andythenorth>they should be producing 15m to be realistic :P
15:17<@planetmaker>and there are 4 .. 6 in those fjords. which is enough
15:17<andythenorth>no you need far more for realism :P
15:17<andythenorth>and the ships should be realistic capacity
15:18<andythenorth>real ships are like....50,000,000,000l
15:18<andythenorth>this game sucks
15:18*andythenorth will now resume doing other things
15:18<DanMacK>same with trains, each freight car should handle like 100 Tons
15:18*andythenorth observes two things
15:19<DanMacK>?
15:19<andythenorth>(1) lego eventually gave in and started making 8 wide vehicles that could seat two minifigs
15:19<andythenorth>after years of complaints
15:19<andythenorth>(2) then they stopped
15:19<andythenorth>and went back to 4 wide *because it's a fricking toy* :P
15:20<andythenorth>ho ho ho
15:20<andythenorth>but this can go the other way too
15:20<andythenorth>Amazon Kindle doesn't have a backlight. It uses a demonstrably better display technology, which is easier on the eye, and uses less battery, but needs illumination
15:21<andythenorth>but go read the consumer reviews. No-one will buy a kindle because it doesn't have a backlight
15:21<andythenorth>they know they need a backlight. And Amazon are just being cheap
15:21<andythenorth>"why don't Amazon listen to me"
15:21*andythenorth may have digressed
15:22<andythenorth>"I don't want to put a 40w bulb on in my bedroom at night. It will wake my husband"
15:22<@planetmaker>:-)
15:22<andythenorth>So instead "I'll quite happily run by 65w backlight, which directs all the light straight into his face" :P
15:22<@planetmaker>the solution would be easy: a small LED light on a lever
15:22<Mazur>Estado would be capitalised if it's (part of) a name.
15:22<andythenorth>planetmaker: they exist ;)
15:22<@planetmaker>I know
15:23<@planetmaker>as USB version or so
15:23<__ln__>Mazur: naturally in that case
15:23<andythenorth>being right doesn't always lead to win
15:23<@planetmaker>nope, it doesn't
15:23<andythenorth>just look at PHP, wordpress, drupal
15:23<andythenorth>win win win
15:23*andythenorth wonders what the question was?
15:24-!-Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit []
15:24<andythenorth>anyway, I like this YACD thing
15:25<andythenorth>that's no reflection on cargodist, which I never tried
15:25<andythenorth>YACD transforms game for me similar to pBS
15:26<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/150466 <-- andythenorth ;-)
15:26<andythenorth>well it's a fast truck :P
15:26<@planetmaker>AIs not always know what is good, it seems ;-) Yes, I suppose
15:26<@planetmaker>the fastest probably
15:27<andythenorth>they're making money, who am I to criticise?
15:27<andythenorth>maybe the machines know best
15:27<andythenorth>I currently have no money :(
15:27<andythenorth>and a beautiful pile of logs at a station, waiting for bigger trains
15:28<@planetmaker>hm, since I switched on cargodist for all cargos, most AIs go bancrupt. Only that blue AIAI copes somewhat
15:29<andythenorth>presumably AIs could learn about this
15:29<andythenorth>might be easier for an AI to calculate the graph
15:29<+michi_cc>Needs an extension to the NoAI API though.
15:32<@planetmaker>it would need that, yes
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15:44<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> would definitely be nice to have a default timetabled wait :P <-- one of the timetable patches around here lets you do ctrl+click on wait time to set all wait times in the timetable simultaneously
15:51<xQR>anyone else noticed that on windows openttd servers it is impossible to do a graceful quit for clients? it's always a socket error 10054 (connection reset by peer)
15:52<xQR>which triggers bug 2 i found: in case of a quit due to a socket error the server won't inform admin interface clients that a player left :/
15:52<xQR>so basically my admin interface client never knows when a client quits
15:53<@planetmaker>hm... we have this year's first thunderstorm here :-)
15:54<@planetmaker>(no, it's not a parabole to your remarks)
15:55<xQR>^^
15:55<Rubidium>xQR: does sound like FS#4585; does the solution described there help?
15:55<@planetmaker>xQR: I guess no-one noticed really... care to make a bug report about it?
15:55<@planetmaker>:-)
15:55<xQR>yeah just found that fs entry
15:56<xQR>i wanted to create an entry but did a search first and was happy that i am not the only one who noticed it
15:56<xQR>yorick ftw :)
15:57<xQR>Rubidium haven't tried yet, but i am quite sure it will, as i noticed the same: that call to notify the admin interface is simply missing from that function, probably was forgotten
15:58<xQR>mhh but i don't find an entry about the connection resets on windows servers, guess i will create one for that now
15:58<xQR>have tried 20 times, disconnected from the server in all ways possible
16:00<xQR>the openttd client seems to be a bit impatient in general - even on linux where you CAN have graceful disconnects it's quite rare
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16:00<xQR>which is what happens if you send a quit but close the socket immediately afterwards - whether the quit packet gets out before the socket close is just random
16:06<Rubidium>the queue is always flushed to the network buffers before closing, unless the socket is already closed or the buffer is full
16:06<xQR>yeah but i know from my own programs that not even flushing the queue is a guarantee that it will get sent before socket shutdown
16:07<xQR>what helps is something simple like a stupid 100 ms sleep before doing the socket shutdown
16:07<Rubidium>and let all clients lag for 3 ticks? ;)
16:08<xQR>how would a client waiting 100 ms affect all other clients on the server?
16:08<Rubidium>oh, letting the client wait
16:08<Rubidium>+only
16:08<xQR>sure, the client is the one that doesn't get the quit packet out before shutting down its socket
16:08<Rubidium>as the networking code is pretty similar for both the server and client
16:08<xQR>so the server never receives the quit packet anymore
16:10<xQR>i couldn't explain why, i'd assume a flush will make sure it is really sent and when the shutdown is done afterwards the data before should always reach the server before the socket shutdown
16:10<xQR>but i've made that experience on both windows and linux
16:10<xQR>though it varies, probably depending on many variables like network drivers used, operating system settings, current whether in south africa...
16:11<xQR>but a stupid sleep of some milliseconds makes a huge difference even if it's very hot in south africa :>
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>so... i don't know why everybody thinks YACDest is so difficult... i'm making waaay more money than in my daylength 8 + cargodist game, and i have only connected two cities yet
16:15-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>(i also had town cargo *2^-4 in that game)
16:18<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: not everybody ;-)
16:18<@planetmaker>But is more difficult than default
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>the industry window could also show sources, not only destinations for cargo
16:24<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: like the cargo chain, but then with actual industries and amounts? :)
16:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: YACD is easy with PAX, if you pick the right starting cities
16:29<andythenorth>and build the network very fast
16:29<andythenorth>I was raining money in my second game
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16:30<supermop>what is yacd?
16:30*andythenorth suggests a topic change :P
16:30<andythenorth>or we teach brot
16:30<andythenorth>is there brot here?
16:31<supermop>no idea whats going on
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16:32<andythenorth>supermop: visit the forums - openttd dev section
16:34*andythenorth browses screenshots
16:34*andythenorth should play flat maps instead of hilly
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16:39<supermop>hmmmmmm
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16:42*andythenorth wants a way to build 50% slopes :P
16:42<andythenorth>for trains
16:43<andythenorth>i.e. take 2 tiles to rise 1 height level
16:44<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: It needs collapsible sections for each cargo and/or a scrollbar first, though.
16:45*DanMacK wants to try YACD with his current settings
16:48<@planetmaker>:-)
16:49<@planetmaker>but the slope is already configurable, andythenorth ;-)
16:49<@planetmaker>(but not in the way you mean ;-) )
16:49<andythenorth>I know
16:49<andythenorth>I already turned down the freight weight multiplier instead
16:50<andythenorth>in the absence of more powerful trains....civil engineering seems the way to go
16:50<andythenorth>inclined plane?
16:50<andythenorth>ropeway?
16:52<+michi_cc>planetmaker: the thunderstorm has arrived here :)
16:52<@planetmaker>:-)
16:52<@planetmaker>I thought things walk to the East, but ... thunderstorms have their own rules, I guess
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>we had a thunderstorm a few weeks ago
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16:55<Eddi|zuHause>and it slightly misaligned the satellite dish
16:55<Ammler>if that is the worst what happen, it wasn't a strong thunderstorm
16:59<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how would shunting work?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you assign 100 wagons to a group and send them "go to A, attach to an engine towards B", "go to B, attach to an engine towards C", etc. and the engine says "goto A, attach up to N length wagons towards B"
17:01<andythenorth>so stations corral wagons until a suitable train turns up?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:02<andythenorth>stations would act a bit like depots?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:02<andythenorth>hmm
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively extend depots to multi-tile
17:02<andythenorth>another idea was 'refit at stations'
17:02<andythenorth>to any valid cargo
17:02<andythenorth>possibly with weighting towards higher-paying
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>so you can either have a loading/unloading station (current station) or a shunting station (current depot)
17:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how would this work for other vehicle types?
17:03<andythenorth>can shunting be extended to trucks, ships, planes?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can tell the wagon "load onto a ship towards X"?
17:04<andythenorth>hmm
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>the ship is not much different from an engine
17:04<andythenorth>so ships are floating depots?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>no, ships are floating engines
17:04*andythenorth wonders what would actually happen if a depot moved around
17:05<andythenorth>but anwyay...
17:05*andythenorth was wondering how to have, e.g. general goods ships
17:06<andythenorth>capable of carrying any cargo meeting certain class
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17:17<frosch123>night
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>somehow the paper mill doesn't produce any manufacturing supplies, even when supplied with a trainload of wood
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17:31<Eddi|zuHause>note: works better if you cover all tiles of the industry ;)
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17:46*DanMacK wishes there was a way to have a producing and accepting industry close by that doesn't require more than 1 station...
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17:54<@Terkhen>good night
17:55-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:56<+michi_cc>YACD 1.1 is out!
17:57<@planetmaker>time for an update :-)
17:59<@planetmaker>but first time for sleep. Good night
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18:14*DanMacK waits for the YACD 1.1 binary now
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18:29<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 28 00:00:09 2011