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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-04-30

---Logopened Sat Apr 30 00:00:39 2011
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02:44*andythenorth proposes new name for BROS grf
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02:57<k-man>is there communal coop games one can join?
02:58<k-man>is there open graphics for sub-arctic?
02:59<@planetmaker>k-man: yes, look for openttdcoop in the server lists and irc channels. And yes
03:00<k-man>when I try to make a subarctic game, it looks just like a temperate game - but the industries appear to be sub-arctig
03:00<@planetmaker>then you use an alpine grf
03:01<k-man>alpine? do I need to download that?
03:14<@Terkhen>k-man: if you are playing subarctic, the terrain looks like temperate but it is using subarctic industries, you are probably using alpine or ogfx+ landscape (you already downloaded that newgrf and loaded it)
03:14<@Terkhen>good morning also :)
03:33<k-man>Terkhen, morning
03:33<k-man>so how do I make it look subarctic?
03:33<@Terkhen>depends on what newgrf you loaded
03:33<k-man>I installed the open graphics set
03:33<@Terkhen>which one?
03:34<k-man>and just now I installed the openttdcoop set
03:34<k-man>err... I think just the main one on the openttd website
03:34<k-man>I didn't realise there is so many version
03:34<@Terkhen>k-man: that is a base graphics set, it does not change graphics
03:35<@Terkhen>a NewGRF does
03:35<@Terkhen>check your NewGRF settings
03:35<@Terkhen>and in "Active NewGRFs", you have loaded either Alpine Climate or OpenGFX+ Landscape
03:35<@Terkhen>I'll be back later
03:35<k-man>active newgrafs is empty
03:37<@Terkhen>can you upload an screenshot that shows both landscape in your game and your active newgrfs list? Ctrl+S to take screenshots, upload them to imgbin or another similar web
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03:37<k-man>Terkhen, I seem to have snow now in my arctic game
03:38<k-man>I installed OpenGFX newTerrain v0.4
03:38<@Terkhen>that's a quite old test NewGRF for OpenGFX
03:38<@Terkhen>it is included in the openttdcoop pack just for loading old games
03:39<k-man>which one should I install?
03:40<Mazur>Good morrow, one and all.
03:40<k-man>morning Mazur
03:40<k-man>although it is night here
03:42<Zuu>k-man: you could use the OpenGFX+ NewGRFs.
03:42<Zuu>If you are looking for small extensions to the base set.
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03:54<k-man>ok, thanks
03:55<@planetmaker>k-man: don't install ANY newgrf, if you want the default looks
03:55<k-man>double size gui sounds good for large screens
03:56<@planetmaker>(it doesn't invalidate what Zuu said, though)
03:56<k-man>I'm happy to fiddle
03:56*Zuu tried the double size gui once for fun but it was way to big for my taste.
03:57<k-man>but if I have no newgrafs installed, should I see subarctic graphis when I select a subarctic game?
03:57<Zuu>But for low vision and/or inexact input devices it is good that it exists.
03:58<Zuu>k-man: Yes why not?
03:58<Zuu>The subarctic graphics varies by height of land, so if you have a very flat land, you'll not see all graphics.
03:59<k-man>well mountainous land looks snowy now
03:59<@planetmaker>k-man: if you don't see sub-arctic graphics, you either have newgrfs active, or sub-arctic looks differently to what you remember
03:59<k-man>so I guess its working
04:00<k-man>planetmaker, I think it was as zuu said, at first I didn't have any mountains so there was no snow
04:00<@planetmaker>provide a screenshot, you know, and others might be able to tell...
04:00<Zuu>I think you can lower the snowline if you want snow also on a rather flat map.
04:00*planetmaker is amazed again and again at discussing graphical stuff without any screenshots, but using 1k+ words instead
04:00<Zuu>(you set the snowline in the new game window)
04:01<Rubidium>planetmaker: but 1k words are much smaller than a screenshot
04:02<k-man>Zuu, oh do you?
04:02<@planetmaker>hehe @ Rubidium
04:02<k-man>ah yeah, thanks for the pointer
04:03<@planetmaker>still, it should not look *the same* as temperate; it's differently coloured
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04:45<@planetmaker>he, my local traffic is way under-developed it seems...
04:45<@Terkhen>hello again :)
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05:03<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen :-)
05:05<@planetmaker>hm, are there actually some nice city station bananas'ed?
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06:51<SmatZ> :D
06:52<SmatZ>digging up 1,5 years old thread with "I have never heard of this game so i don't really know what to say" :D
07:07<@planetmaker>yeah. brilliant
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07:14<@peter1138>bah, standard game is boring
07:14<@peter1138>need cargodest :p
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>hehe, i know that feeling :p
07:21<Rubidium>but cargo with destinations, or cargo that gets distributed?
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07:29<flitz>quick question: is it possible to inherit from Vehicle and still create a new pool for the child class ? like:
07:30<flitz>struct SomeClass : SomePool::PoolItem<&_some_pool>, Vehicle {
07:30<@planetmaker>from a game concept POV I prefer destinations over distribution
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07:31<Rubidium>planetmaker: cargodist is easier though; little less micro management
07:31<flitz>I ask because Vehicle already inherits from VehiclePool::PoolItem<&_vehicle_pool> and that gives a lot of ambiguities
07:31<@planetmaker>But we have easy already: no destinations or distribution
07:32<@Yexo>flitz: that cannot work
07:32<@planetmaker>and from what I gather from my test game: it requires you to look what to connect, yes.
07:32<@Yexo>as soon as SomeClass would be casted to a Vehicle all code would assume that SomeClass::index is an index in the vehicle pool, while in fact it's an index in the SomeClass pool
07:33<@planetmaker>But the destinations don't change (much), so it's more of a network design question
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07:35<flitz>Yexo: thought so, don't know if you remember but it's still the TemplateVehicle problem
07:35<@Yexo>I remember ;)
07:36<flitz>it feels like I need to reuse much stuff that is currently present for Vehicle and derivates, but rewriting everything is too much redundancy
07:37<@Yexo>why don't you put them in the vehicle pool?
07:38<flitz>this is my last option :)
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07:39<flitz>Yexo: but templates should not be treated like Vehicles in many cases, for example where the value of a company is calculated or where groups are displayed
07:39<flitz>it might be an idea to just modify the FOR_ALL_VEHICLES makro to skip TemplateVehicles alltogether
07:57<@Alberth>you need a consist concept
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07:58<@Alberth>(which may be the same as your templated vehicles), and from those you create 'real' vehicles.
07:59<@Alberth>ie the current 'vehicle
08:00<@Alberth>ie the current 'vehicle concept' breaks if you add templates, so it need to be organized in another way
08:00<flitz>right now I use: struct TemplateVehicle : TemplatePool::PoolItem<&_template_pool>, BaseVehicle {
08:00<flitz>which behaves basically the same as Vehicles do regarding being a consist, adding engines, moving engines and so on
08:01<@Alberth>I was thinking along the lines of how currently groups exist as pool and vehicles point to them
08:01<flitz>the replacement function right now iterates over a template-consist and adjusts a real vehicle-consist accordingly to match it
08:01<@Alberth>in the same way you could have consist and have real vehicles point to them?
08:01<flitz>hm, so a pool of consists instead of vehicles ?
08:03<@Alberth>As you found out, the current structure is not going to work (I think). A redesign/restructure of what 'vehicle' is, seems one way to me
08:04<@Alberth>already the current 'vehicle' is messed up in the sense that much of the data has special cases like 'this is only valid for the first vehicle of a chain', which is a BIG sign the structure of it is wrong imho
08:06<@Alberth>unfortunately, so far I have not succeeded to introduce a nice new 'consist' concept (which would move a lot of the special cases away from vehicle).
08:08<flitz>the only real consists would be trains, i.e. if you consider articulated vehicles as one entity
08:08<flitz>or multiheaded ones
08:09<@Alberth>today, yes. Tomorrow, maybe have RV 'trains' too?
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08:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22384 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#4585]: No client error packet was sent to the admin bots
08:10<@Terkhen>or ships with containers :)
08:10<@Alberth>air 'trains' seem not very useful, ship 'trains' would be something like a bunch of linked boats, something quite rare probably
08:10<flitz>so, does it make sense continuing on a template replacement with the vehicle structure maybe being changed some time soon ?
08:10<@Alberth>Terkhen: a container ship is still one ship :)
08:11<flitz>one ship pulling another could be a consist, other than that, it is rather a long ship I would think
08:11<@Alberth>rafts of floating wood is sort of the only case I can imagine
08:12<Rubidium>pulling? nah.. pushing!
08:13<@Alberth>on rivers, you get such pushed boats perhaps
08:14<@Alberth>flitz: 'some time soon' can be anything from tomorrow until the next 6 years or more, so not much point in anticipating on that
08:14<@Alberth>unless you want to take it, in which case it may make sense to first restructure the vehicle data, before trying to hook up new stuff to it
08:15<flitz>Alberth: because so far the template replacement works in the way I described, the point I got stuck recently though was with the callback functions which need to work on real vehicles and don't apply to my structure
08:16<flitz>the most recent problem was to retrieve articulated parts for a vehicle according to its (new)grf-definition
08:17<@Alberth>flitz: sorry, I don't know that part of the code well enough to say anything sensible about it (which may explain my lack of success too)
08:18<@Alberth>euhm, there is some chain to get articulated parts of a train afaik
08:18<flitz>some chain ?
08:19<@Alberth>at least while reading the vehicle split/merge code, after splitting both chains get checked for articulated vehicles that must also move
08:20<@Yexo>flitz: you can't get the articulated parts of a vehicle before it's constructed, at least not 100% reliable
08:20<@Yexo>the articulated parts are decided by a newgrf callback
08:21<flitz>Yexo: yes, this was the point where I got stuck
08:22<flitz>because copying the necessary code for my own structure is so much redundancy, it seems silly
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08:25<@Alberth>static void InsertInConsist(Train *dst, Train *chain) <-- refuses to insert between articulated parts
08:26<@Alberth>'chain' is a change by me, but the function name should be findable in train_cmd
08:27<@Alberth>ie code like !dst->Next()->IsArticulatedPart()
08:30<flitz>for modifying train chains I'm using the CmdMoveRailVehicle()
08:32<flitz>Aberth: for now I will just use real vehicles as templates, it's the easiest way out and a quick solution. Maybe we could come up with a nice sketch for a consist-based vehicle structure then
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08:37<@Alberth>I would indeed split those two problems
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09:08<Bjarte>dang, I can't connect to my server
09:08<Bjarte>only getting thrown back to the main window
09:09<Bjarte>I can connect to other server without hassle
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09:19<fonsinchen>good morning
09:26<@Terkhen>hi fonsinchen
09:31<fonsinchen>Any opinions about that plan of mine to implement distribution of cargo on top of YACD?
09:31<fonsinchen>I think it'll be rather simple, a patch of <20kb
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09:33<flitz>so that there could be an advanced setting to chose between the two approaches ?
09:34<flitz>sounds like a good idea to me
09:35<flitz>I think that the distributions-way is maybe even more realistic, but the other one should bring some new gameplay elements
09:36<fonsinchen>realism is not the point, though.
09:36<fonsinchen>laziness is
09:36<flitz>in which way is distribution more lazy ?
09:37<fonsinchen>you don't have to follow the predetermined destinations but can build your network however you like
09:37<fonsinchen>So you'll go for the easier ways.
09:38<flitz>yes, so the other way around was what I meant with new gameplay elements ;)
09:44<flitz>I didn't follow the whole discussion, but I agree with the point that passengers don't really demand where they want to go but rather choose the most desirable among all available destinations
09:44<Rubidium>most passengers don't; the passengers that would would be tourists
09:46<Rubidium>after all if your work isn't near an available destination you wouldn't use "public transport"
09:46<flitz>btw: I never really tried that: can you generate massive onw-way traffic from [large place] -> [tiny place] ?
09:46<flitz>in cargodist I mean
09:47<flitz>Rubidium: but on the other hand, people choose work only if they can reach it
09:48<Rubidium>you're talking about reaching in general, not reaching by "public transport"
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09:54<flitz>true, there is also individual transport. but I think that you can also offer public transportation towards some point and by doing that actually increase the desire to go there
09:55<@planetmaker>but that's not the business travel
09:55<fonsinchen>in cargodist you can generate asymmetric or symmetric traffic, depending on the advanced settings
09:55<fonsinchen>if you choose asymmetric you might end up with "massive onw-way traffic from [large place] -> [tiny place]"
09:56<fonsinchen>with symmetric that can only happen if [large place] is connected to very few other places.
09:56<Rubidium>flitz: but IMO that would model "tourists"
09:56<frosch123>afternoon everyone :)
09:59<flitz>Rubdium: why ? everybody has to choose his working place based on reachability. and public transportation simply increases reachability. You think that so many people who drive to work by train every day would just jump into a car if there weren't any trains anymore ? at least partly they would choose new workplaces with a better connection
09:59<flitz>hi, frosch
09:59<@planetmaker>flitz: and you think that's the important most criterion for 'where do I work'?
09:59<@planetmaker>rather not. That's what cars are for
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10:00<@planetmaker>or bikes
10:00<flitz>not the most, but one important aspect
10:00<Rubidium>flitz: given the willingness of people to go through 2 hours of traffic jams to and from home in cars, the reachability by public transport doesn't matter that much
10:01<flitz>cars are really important nowadays, yes, but I don't have any staticts at hand how large of a percentage travels to work by car vs public transport
10:02<@planetmaker>between 20% and 80%
10:02<flitz>Well, but every day regional trains are full of people going to work or coming from work, so the demand is quite there, isn't it ? I don't think that all of those people would be able to afford to travel by car if they where forced to
10:03<@planetmaker>in Germany it was in 2008 > 50% by car, ~15% by public transport, by bike foot and others the rest
10:04<@planetmaker>about 10% foot and bike respectively
10:04<@planetmaker>which clearly indicates: public transport is of not major importance for work ;-)
10:04<Rubidium>flitz: but the vast majority would be (or at least here in the NL they would be)
10:05<flitz>weird, I would have estimated this number higher... ^^
10:06<Rubidium>I'm merely trying to say that predominantly commuter/business passengers are behaving like "cargodest", whereas "tourists" behave more like "cargodist"
10:06<Rubidium>yes, there'll be commuters with cargodist behaviour and tourists with cargodest behaviour... but they are the minority in their "category"
10:07<flitz>yep, I got your point but didn't think that the disparity is this large
10:08<@Alberth>one could also consider cargodest where you get paid a part of the transport money
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10:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22385 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#4603]: strnatcmp is in string.cpp, so it ought to be declared in string_func.h.
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12:42<@Alberth>mostly all are not here
12:42*ZirconiumX is definitely not here
12:43<Rubidium>yeah, I'm not at Alberth's place ;)
12:45*Alberth conforms that
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12:54<Zuu>How nice would it if changing wallpaper on a wall would be as easy as on a computer? :-)
12:55<@planetmaker>it is. Just cost way more $$$ :-P
12:55<Zuu>and takes more time
12:56<Zuu>at least if you do it yourself.
12:56<@planetmaker>then yes
12:56<@Alberth>no, time flies when you're having fun!
12:56<Zuu>Though, it has actually been fun to do the ground work and paint the wall white. :-)
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13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22386 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4602]: When the last AI company gets removed, the 'dead' state was not reset in the AI debug window.
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13:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22387 /trunk/src/network/network_client.cpp:
13:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Fix-ish [FS#4601]: Windows' recv seems to return "graceful closed" before
13:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: having passed the remaining buffer which causes OpenTTD to think all connections
13:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: are "incorrectly" terminated, i.e. without the "I'm leaving" packet from the
13:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: client. So let the client wait a tiny bit after sending the "I'm leaving" packet
13:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: and before gracefully closing the connection
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13:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22388 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix: when a game uses a lot of NewGRFs the buffer for storing that information in the PNG is too small
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13:49<romazoon>hi all, is there anyway to make the fields (around farms) bigger?? or maybe to be builded like trees ?
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13:50<Rubidium>modify the source
13:50<Rubidium>hmm... no, that's said incorrectly
13:50<Rubidium>may the source be with you ;)
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13:51<romazoon>modify the source is out of my reach i m affraid... but thanks for the answer (i was hoping something exist allready)
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13:51<Rubidium>well, there have some people be speaking about making it NewGRF configurable, but that's probably further out of your reach
13:52<romazoon>ok, lol
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14:11<xQR>cool Rubidium thx :)
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14:36*DanMacK grumbles about TTDP base graphics
14:38<Rubidium>then make a new set ;)
14:38<DanMacK>it's the sizing issue I'm havign issues with
14:43<DanMacK>overlapping in depot/build window or gaps on the map screen
14:43<DanMacK>Joys of base graphics
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15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r22389 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#4600]: try to make sure there is an early house available in the current climate for every townzone, not just a single available house for all climates/townzones
15:45<@Yexo>Lakie: did andy ever discuss with you?
15:46<@Yexo>is that (or something similar) doable for ttdpatch?
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15:53<agasdsadsasaaaaaaaa>do you like linux? look here:
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16:03<Lakie>I wouldn't know?
16:04<Lakie>'tis something Csaboka would have more idea about than I, doable yes, effiecently dunno
16:08<DanMacK>Is Csaba even around anymore?
16:08<Lakie>Which makes life hard for those of us left to maintain his codes
16:09<DanMacK>Didn't he get married
16:11<Lakie>I don't remember, its possible.
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16:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22390 /branches/1.1/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
16:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: When drawing the town authority window, check whether the availability of the actions changed, and force a complete redraw in that case (r22307)
16:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: The 'freeform edges' setting could be enabled when there were buoys on the northern border [FS#4580] (r22297)
16:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Reset Window::scrolling_scrollbar when raising scrollbar buttons [FS#4571] (r22294)
16:41<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] the c and p parts of station vars 40, 41 and 49 were incorrect for large stations (r22286)
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16:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22391 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 3 dirs):
16:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Vehicles skipped orders when inserting automatic orders failed (r22324)
16:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] When determining refittability use the cargo translation table of the GRF setting the refitmask instead of the GRF defining the action 3 (r22316)
16:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Make road vehicles, ships and aircraft skip orders if they are leaving a depot and heading to the same one again; just like trains (r22309)
16:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Waiting on a server could kick the client, or rather the client would kick itself due to an unexpected packet [FS#4574] (r22308)
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16:45<@planetmaker>Alberth: I attached a few suggestions on how to 'label' the rows in the transparency window
16:45<@planetmaker>But maybe a (short additional) text might help nevertheless
16:46<@planetmaker>'label' as in graphics
16:46<Rubidium>aren't those additional texts called tooltips?
16:46<@planetmaker>I rather meant not tooltip but permanent text
16:46<@planetmaker>actual text labels ;-)
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22392 /branches/1.1/ (9 files in 3 dirs): (log message trimmed)
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Crash when clicking a removed company in the vehicle list dropdowns [FS#4592] (r22373)
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Make sure saving has completely and utterly finished before starting a
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: new one. Otherwise you could start a save, which would be marked as done by the
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: previous save stopping and then yet another save could be started... and that
16:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: could create a deadlock [FS#4596] (r22371)
16:50*Alberth is busy trying yacd :)
16:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22393 /branches/1.1/ (17 files in 8 dirs): (log message trimmed)
16:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Windows' recv seems to return "graceful closed" before having passed the
16:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: remaining buffer which causes OpenTTD to think all connections are "incorrectly"
16:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terminated, i.e. without the "I'm leaving" packet from the client. So let the
16:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: client wait a tiny bit after sending the "I'm leaving" packet and before
16:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: gracefully closing the connection [FS#4601] (r22387)
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16:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22394 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 4 dirs):
16:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: Show one digit of the fractional train length in the depot (r22336, r22305, r22304, r22303)
16:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Check the availability year of all houses, not just the NewGRF houses, when making sure that at least one is available onwards from year 0 [FS#4581] (r22389, r22300, r22299)
16:58<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: When a game uses a lot of NewGRFs the buffer for storing that information in the PNG is too small (r22388)
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17:03<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22395 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (30 files): [1.1] -Backport: loads of string changes
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17:15<Zuu>Building connected systems with YACD really does make sense as you otherwise easily find out that you need to close your point-to-point connections as the destinations change.
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17:16<Zuu>Also target industries seem to close down more often than usual. Either it's because of YACD or OpenGFX+ Industries.
17:23<Zuu>hmm, quite a lot of source industries seem to close down aswell.
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17:30<+michi_cc>Zuu: With YACD it's harder to have a high % transported value, and if OGFX+ uses that to decide on closure...
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17:34<Zuu>Hmm, but even if I provide all destinations that a source industry have and good service, the % transported can drop to 0%.
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17:51<@planetmaker>Zuu: as long as you service an industry - however badly - it should not close with OpenGFX+ Industries
17:51<@planetmaker>it might not yet work that way, though
17:52<@planetmaker>I noticed with an oil rig which closed on me
17:53<Zuu>I've noticed that some months the service at a source industry drop to 0% even if there are trucks loading at an source industry.
17:53<Zuu>(with YACD)
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17:57<@planetmaker>maybe the wrong truck was loading as cargo to the wrong destination was only generated?
17:59*Zuu misses some nice features in VISUM of analyzing a network.
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17:59<Zuu>Would like a map over which stations that are served from a given station.
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18:00<Zuu>Also a filter feature of the vehicle list would be useful. Eg to filter out vehicles that have a Full Load order at that station.
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18:03<Zuu>Hmm, I should probably stop using non-stop orders so that I can use the auto-orders to figure out what RVs that use a particular road.
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18:44<@planetmaker>good night
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---Logclosed Sun May 01 00:00:55 2011