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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-02

---Logopened Mon May 02 00:00:26 2011
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02:06<andythenorth>hmm
02:06<andythenorth>crash while using force-upgrade button in depot
02:06<andythenorth>I'm using trunk + YACD
02:06<andythenorth>is a fs report valid if YACD is applied?
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02:12<@planetmaker>report it to the YACD thread. Good morning also
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03:04<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: apparently you're not western european :P
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05:09<@Terkhen>hmm? why?
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05:12<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=54066&start=40
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05:16<@Terkhen>that is a stupid classification
05:16<andythenorth>he
05:19<@Terkhen>I live more at the west than all of the "western europe" in that map :)
05:20<andythenorth>too many theatres
05:22*andythenorth ponders trying to fix towns
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05:26<@Terkhen>town growth?
05:28<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/too_many_theatres.png
05:29<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/too_many_theatres_2.png
05:29<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/too_many_theatres_3.png
05:29<Markk>heh
05:33<@Terkhen>I remember an issue like that, the cause was a houses NewGRF
05:33<@Terkhen>or does it happen without NewGRFs too?
05:33<andythenorth>I don't use any house grfs
05:33<andythenorth>I might have to write my own to fix towns
05:34<andythenorth>default towns are just too weird for me
05:34<@Terkhen>opengfx+ houses? :P
05:38<andythenorth>I'd need to reimplement default towns in newgrf basically
05:38<andythenorth>I'd use base set graphics
05:38<andythenorth>and the same rules for construction
05:38<andythenorth>except to fix the bits that are broken
05:40<andythenorth>I vastly prefer original town graphics to any others
05:40<@Terkhen>that's more or less what we had to do for opengfx+ industries
05:40<andythenorth>it's an interesting approach
05:41<andythenorth>it begs the question...why not just delete the original code for these things, and force them to be provided by newgrf
05:41<andythenorth>the original code is lengthy and full of special cases
05:41<andythenorth>lengthy is not bad
05:42<@Terkhen>I suppose that too many newgrfs rely on the default houses/industries/etc in one way or another
05:42<andythenorth>probably :(
05:42<andythenorth>I do
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06:36<yorick>the convert signal button should reset when the gui is closed
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06:56<yorick>the convert rail should be diagonal with ctrl :)
07:04*andythenorth is far too addicted to YACD
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07:05<@peter1138>YACD is rather nice
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07:07<@planetmaker>seems there's a real yacd-mania
07:07<@planetmaker>(and yes, it's fun :-) )
07:09<@peter1138>i never did play with cargodist, mind, but i didn't like the idea ;p
07:12*andythenorth will not be doing much newgrf for a few weeks
07:13<andythenorth>except adding things to support YACD :P
07:13*andythenorth is adding ships of various sizes, but not new graphics for them :P
07:13*andythenorth has the luxury of ordering up new vehicles whenever they're needed :P
07:14<@peter1138>fish seems... unfinished ;P
07:14<andythenorth>it is
07:14<andythenorth>turns out there's a lot of types of boats in the world
07:14<andythenorth>and they're the hardest game object to draw
07:17*andythenorth thinks FISH might be done by version 3
07:18<@planetmaker>I really enjoy the weired names :-)
07:19<@planetmaker>well, not so weired, but still
07:19<@planetmaker>In my yacd game I couldn't live without those ships. All that oil...
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07:21<andythenorth>have you figured out the naming schema? :)
07:22<@planetmaker>I didn't try to. But sure enough the different types have different origins
07:22<@planetmaker>so much is easily obvious
07:22<@planetmaker>and that's important ;-)
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07:22<@peter1138>what's the obsession with 1870? :p
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07:28<andythenorth>might as well tell just one lie, instead of lots
07:28<andythenorth>and I tend to start my games around 1870
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07:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: the names are from shipping areas
07:33<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipping_Forecast
07:33<andythenorth>some are mediteranean
07:33<andythenorth>some are canadian
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07:39<Ammler>andythenorth: yacd is just a cargo patch with tons of new cargos ;-)
07:40<andythenorth>perhaps
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07:58<dihedral>oi
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08:00<anujmore>Hello guys. I cannot figure out what to do with produced goods :/ The things that come out. From a sawmill for example
08:00<andythenorth>take them to a town
08:01<anujmore>Any town? Or does consumption level matter?
08:01<andythenorth>any that accepts goods
08:01<anujmore>Ok andythenorth :)
08:01<@Terkhen>check if the station would accept goods first, only towns with certain buildings (more common in big towns) accept goods
08:01<andythenorth>use the 'build station' to test it
08:02<andythenorth>hover over a town and see if goods are accepted
08:02<andythenorth>or use the ? tool to find out which buildings accept goods
08:02<anujmore>andythenorth: I know that :P
08:02<andythenorth>ok great ;)
08:03<anujmore>Also my Narborough woods has lots of woods available, but Narborough valley (which is at same distance from the forest) doesn't have as much (Woods is a truck station and valley is a train station)
08:03<anujmore>I thought I could use the speed and capacity of trains to transport woods at once, but now :(
08:05<@Yexo>anujmore: it depends on the station rating for woods, see http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics#Station_rating
08:06<anujmore>Yexo: That page is godsent!
08:06<k-man>is there a newgraf that makes signals easier to see?
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08:09<TrueBrain>GENERAL NOTICE: all openttd.org related certificates are updated
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08:19<yorick>is there a newgrf that makes the difference between red and green signals easier to see for the colourblind?
08:21<andythenorth>one was being worked on
08:21<andythenorth>but there were some falling-outs
08:21<andythenorth>with the developer
08:23<@planetmaker>yorick, that's indeed possibly a good idea. It needs graphics. Care to provide?
08:23<@planetmaker>I would even care to write the grf
08:24<@planetmaker>though that's a dead easy newgrf, too
08:24<yorick>planetmaker: you could make a static grf that replaces the digital signals with semaphores
08:24<yorick>or make them yellow and blue :P
08:24<@planetmaker>the graphics work is the difficult one, to make it nice and distinguishable
08:24<@planetmaker>yorick, yes, it will need to be a NewGRF which can be statically loaded
08:25<@planetmaker>otherwise it's not of much point to provide
08:26<@planetmaker>changing to semaphores might actually work also without graphics work
08:27<@planetmaker>Though I'd not like to loose the option to distinguish them - which in turn means 'graphics work required'
08:28<yorick>maybe make them black-white
08:28<@planetmaker>I'm asking you ;-)
08:28<anujmore>There's a train in my depot which is instructed to go to the station, but is not. Bug?
08:29<@planetmaker>missing signals?
08:29<@Yexo>anujmore: it's far more likely to be an error in your track layout or signals, but upload your savegame somewhere to be sure
08:30<anujmore>Yexo: I found it. Track design error (Not an error exactly(
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08:39<ZirconiumX>hello all
08:39<ZirconiumX>s/all/all who aren't all
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08:44<yorick>anyone know of red-blue colorblindness?
08:44<ZirconiumX>yes - why?
08:44<yorick>because we need signals that are colorblind-safe
08:45<ZirconiumX>maybe an advanced setting?
08:45<yorick>thinking of a static grf
08:45<yorick>but it needs new graphics
08:52<@Terkhen>IMO the best would be something big and not color based; not only for colorblindness but also for making them easier to check
08:53<@Yexo>but the colors make them easy to check
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08:54<@planetmaker>big and colourful are not mutually exclusive ;-)
08:54<@Terkhen>I find the signals not based on colours easier to check myself :)
08:55*planetmaker never uses semaphore signals
08:55<@Yexo>I don't use those either
08:55<@Terkhen>I only use them
08:57<yorick>they confuse me
08:57*yorick can't remember when they're red
08:58<ZirconiumX>when they're down
08:58<ZirconiumX>when they're up it means go
08:58<yorick>they go left-right
08:58<ZirconiumX>...I think
08:59<ZirconiumX>Right
08:59<ZirconiumX>left is go
08:59<ZirconiumX>right is stop
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09:00<yorick>should the build signal type also be reset?
09:00<yorick>planetmaker: ^
09:00<@planetmaker>no
09:00<@planetmaker>I'd find it irritating
09:01<@planetmaker>as I usually build always the same type.
09:01<yorick>you always build entry signals?
09:01<@planetmaker>yes :-P
09:01<yorick>if they want to set a default signal type they can do so in the patch options
09:02<@planetmaker>but reset means: it gets reset to, say, block signals, when I'm building a piece of tracks where it needs path signals. or vice versa
09:02<@planetmaker>that's already set there
09:02<@Terkhen>the problem comes when I prefer one kind of signals and my partner prefers another
09:02<@planetmaker>Terkhen, static newgrfs;-)
09:02<@Terkhen>I have never used them
09:02<@planetmaker>remap all -> semaphore or remap all -> light
09:03<@planetmaker>but none such exists afaik
09:03<@Terkhen>can you define a grf as static somehow, or do you need to load it as static?
09:03<@planetmaker>and it might not be the best solution out there
09:03<anujmore>Something's really wrong with one of the local authorities.
09:03<yorick>http://sprunge.us/GhCV
09:03<@planetmaker>Terkhen, you need to edit your cfg
09:04<@Terkhen>hmm... it is not a great solution then
09:04<yorick>Terkhen: bug alberth to make a gui
09:05<@planetmaker>Terkhen, yes... it needs GUI support
09:05<@Terkhen>for marking a newgrf as static?
09:05<@planetmaker>yes. And possibly also indicating which newgrf can be set as static in the first place
09:05<@planetmaker>Not many can
09:06<@Terkhen>I don't think a static newgrf is the best solution for signals
09:06<@planetmaker>Neither do I
09:06<@planetmaker>an 3-state UI switch which remaps the sprites accordingly would probably be better
09:06<@Terkhen>it should be transparent to the user: if you select "I only want to use this type", the signal GUI only shows that type for building and only shows that type as built ingame
09:06<@planetmaker>in the adv. settings under GUI
09:06<@Terkhen>if you select both types, it would look as it does now
09:07<yorick>planetmaker: http://sprunge.us/GhCV // need feedback :)
09:07<@planetmaker>agreed, Terkhen
09:07<@Belugas>hello
09:07<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:08<yorick>hello Belugas
09:08<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:08<@planetmaker>yorick, I can't test now
09:08<@Belugas>hello you all :)
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09:10<yorick>ok
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>* andythenorth is adding ships of various sizes, but not new graphics for them :P <-- yes, i noticed that problem as well, it's hard to find a ship size that matches exactly my train size for transfer-purposes. non-grf solutions would be a "load at least 80%" order or a "put the train on the ship" order
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>the worst design idea about signals was to make them depend on the road side...
09:19<@Terkhen>is that a game setting, not an user setting?
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's a GUI setting, but when the road side is "left", changing it does not do anything
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>the setting is "always left" or "same as road side"
09:20-!-Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>which is just stupid
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09:21<@Yexo>not stupid, just missing the value "always right"
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09:22<Eddi|zuHause>it should have been "always left" or "always right" from the start.
09:23<@Yexo>what is wrong with "same as road side"? it might fit certain game-themes, and after all the value is not stored in savegames
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>rail side and road side are not closely connected...
09:23<@Yexo>I didn't know that
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. in france, trains drive on the left, but cars on the right
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>except in the formerly german parts of france
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>in austria it's really screwed up...
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>in some areas trains drive on left, and in others they drive on right
09:28<Noldo_>does it matter, as long as they are on the tracks they are ment to be?
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>Noldo_: it has certain implications on engine construction and signal placement
09:30<@planetmaker>engine construction?
09:30<@Yexo>not in-game
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's better when the train driver sits on the same side as the signals along the track are. with steam engines it's problematic as a right-handed fireman would always stand on the left side, so it becomes fairly crowded when the train driver also has to be on the left side to see the signals
09:32<@planetmaker>yes, of course. I thought of ingame
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>that's (supposedly) the original reason why germany switched to right side
09:33<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> e.g. in france, trains drive on the left, but cars on the right <-- but metro drives on the right :)
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>glx: i guess that has some advantages with passenger flow in stations ;)
09:34<+glx>no it was to prevent trains to go on metro tracks
09:34<@planetmaker>how that?
09:34<@planetmaker>wouldn't it just make collisions more likely? ;-)
09:34<+glx>signals position
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09:45*ZirconiumX thinks KenjiE20 has a bad connection
09:45<KenjiE20>nah
09:45<KenjiE20>>_>
09:47<Mazur>Bin Laden dead. Who'd expected that.
09:48<anujmore>Mazur: A couple of days ago there was a statement by Al-Queda that they would explode some nuclear weapons in Europe if anything happened to Laden.
09:48<anujmore>Coincidence?
09:48<Mazur>"Funny" to hear all those really stoopid comments followging the news.
09:49<Mazur>anujmore, maybe they had an inkling.
09:49*ZirconiumX Mazur: Like every high priority target, I expected him to die sooner or later
09:50<ZirconiumX>woops
09:50<anujmore>Maybe they had. I read Gizmodo. Looks like CIA was really working on that mansion since quite some time.
09:50<Mazur>But things like "this is not the end yet for the battle against terrorism." It's also not of a great influence on the next release of OpenTTD. OIr hte colour of the sky.
09:51<Mazur>Since August, I just heard.
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09:51<ZirconiumX>KenjiE20: Are you doing that so that everyone knows when five minutes have passed?
09:52<KenjiE20>no
09:52<ZirconiumX>I swear you are
09:52<KenjiE20>I would actually like to use my net >.>
09:52<KenjiE20>..but English suburban internets
09:53<Mazur>Yeah, England, poor developing country that it is.
09:53<ZirconiumX>We have 'superfast' broadband (20M(B/b))
09:54<ZirconiumX>It doesn't feel like that
09:54<KenjiE20>we get a max of 2.5Mbps apparently
09:54<ZirconiumX>I could have a tenth of that - and it wouldn't feel any different
09:54<KenjiE20>funny, I've never seen it last above 1 for any length of time
09:54<ZirconiumX>speedtest.net says they were lying
09:54<ZirconiumX>16MB
09:55<@Yexo>getting 16 instead of 20 is not so bad
09:55<KenjiE20>my current sync is 1241
09:55<ZirconiumX>still - most people appear to use 2MB
09:55<KenjiE20>kbps
09:55<KenjiE20>darn those copper cable leaking my internets
09:55<ZirconiumX>oh Fujitsu promise 1Gbps
09:56<ZirconiumX>at a cost of £500,000
09:56<ZirconiumX>to a small town
09:56*ZirconiumX doesn't see the logic in that
09:56<KenjiE20>there's a logic in telecoms?
09:57<ZirconiumX>logic gates, yes
09:57<ZirconiumX>not logic
09:57<KenjiE20>well looks like I'm stable-ish now, my noise margin has raised from 2db to 12
09:58*ZirconiumX uses fibre optics (apparently)
09:59<KenjiE20>well lah de dah :p
09:59*KenjiE20 might as well use PPPoPidgeon
10:01<@peter1138>risen?
10:01*peter1138 pats his ~17Mbit
10:02<ZirconiumX>You've got to question my sanity - I'm using code from TownCars *shock* *horror*
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10:33<ZirconiumX>Hmm
10:33<ZirconiumX> local version = 0.7;
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10:34<ZirconiumX><error> [version] 0.6999999887907
10:34<ZirconiumX>then it isn't 0.7
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10:38<@Yexo>ZirconiumX: welcome to how computers handle floating point values :)
10:39<@Terkhen>meh, gnome 3 looks quite strange
10:40<ZirconiumX>Typical
10:40<ZirconiumX>my ai is broken :(
10:41<@planetmaker>:-) Lovely FP precision
10:41*ZirconiumX reaches for the pastebin
10:41<ZirconiumX>Yexo & planetmaker: I updated it to become 0.7.1
10:41<ZirconiumX>it's still 0.6999999887907
10:42<@Yexo>0.7.1 isn't a valid value
10:42<@Yexo>where did you update what exactly? and how?
10:42<ZirconiumX>my ai
10:42<@Yexo>where in your ai?
10:42<@planetmaker>that's marvelously precise ;-)
10:42<@Yexo>please use that pastebin
10:42<ZirconiumX>I had a bug that caused it to skip quickly
10:43<ZirconiumX>so I moved it back
10:43<@Yexo>skip _what_ quickly?
10:43<ZirconiumX>which killed the ai
10:43<@Yexo>remember, we can't see what you see on your screen
10:43<@Yexo>you really have to provide more information than you do now
10:44<@planetmaker>so far I know "something is not working with your AI". Nothing more
10:44<@planetmaker>neither circumstances, nor where nor what was expected...
10:44<@planetmaker>least typ-able information is a bad approach when asking for help ;-)
10:44<@Yexo>we also now he is using a local variable called "version" and that he assigned the value 0.7 to it
10:44<@Yexo>not that that is any help ;)
10:45<@planetmaker>well, yes
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10:47<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/LNG3Q4a3
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10:48<@Yexo>ZirconiumX: that is no help either, what we actually need to see is your code
10:48<@Yexo>not the output of said code
10:48<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/ChYe7JCG
10:48<ZirconiumX>is code
10:49<ZirconiumX>it gives an error of BuildRoute not existing
10:49<@Yexo>local version = 0.7.1; <- invalid code, if you only use it on line 14 you probably want: local version = "0.7.1";
10:50<ZirconiumX>line 55
10:50<@Yexo>ie make it a string
10:50<@Yexo>line 55 in your paste is AILog.Warning("Main Loop...iteration " + i + ".");
10:50<ZirconiumX>that's what the AI debug gives
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10:51<_Ben_>Hi
10:52<@planetmaker>hi _Ben_
10:52<ZirconiumX>hello _Ben_
10:52<_Ben_>Quick Question if anyone knows, can't find the answer. Snowline heights - is it possible to change the snowline height on an exsisting game or scnario where the cfg file has no effect?
10:52*ZirconiumX braces himself
10:52<ZirconiumX>no
10:52<ZirconiumX>NAFAIK
10:52<@planetmaker>_Ben_, not really
10:53<@Yexo>ZirconiumX: start using proper indentation and you'll notice an error
10:53<@planetmaker>Changing the NewGRF config might do that, but that might have other, far severe consequences
10:53<@Yexo>hint: the brace on line 87 does not close the opening brace on line 7
10:53<@planetmaker>oh joy of coding style :-)
10:53<@Yexo>and squirrel allowing functions within functions :p
10:54<_Ben_>planetmaker and zirconiumX - cheers guys
10:54<ZirconiumX>no problem
10:54<_Ben_>pitty, I should have thourght about snowline before making a scenario
10:54<@Yexo>I think it is possible
10:54<@Yexo>you'll have to use the commandline though
10:54<ZirconiumX>_Ben_:We all make mistakes
10:55<@Terkhen>it is possible, you need to change the setting manually using the commandline
10:55<@Terkhen>I don't remember its name, though
10:55<@planetmaker>that works?
10:55<@Terkhen>yes
10:55<@Yexo>_Ben_: try "set snow_line 88" in the console
10:55<@planetmaker>cool, never tried it, I guess :-)
10:55<@Yexo>the value 88 has to be 8 times the tile height
10:55<@Yexo>so 88 means snow at height 11
10:55<@Yexo>40 would be snow at height 5, etc.
10:56<@planetmaker>and this operation is 100% safe as opposed to newgrf changes ;-)
10:56<_Ben_>Yexo - genious, that works
10:56<_Ben_>thanks man
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10:57<@Yexo>only risk is that a few houses above the new snowline might be without snow or houses under the snowline with snow, depending on how you change it
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10:57<@Yexo>but that should be easily remedied by removing those houses and growing the town again
10:57<_Ben_>yeah I only have terrain and rivers so far, so that's not an issue
10:57<@planetmaker>that'll change with the passage of time ;-)
10:58<@planetmaker>what size is the scenario?
10:58<_Ben_>1024x1024
10:58<@planetmaker>I see :-)
10:58<_Ben_>it's a scenario in the increased height level patch
10:58<@planetmaker>oh :-(
10:59<_Ben_>taken...'some time' to do. hopefully it'll be fun to play
10:59<_Ben_>wonder if the 88-11 thing is the same
10:59<@planetmaker>you'll have to find out
10:59<@planetmaker>I recall that snowline might be one of the funky places for the height levels patch
11:00<@Yexo>if it is the same, the snowline will be limited to a maximum of 255 = 32 tiles
11:00<@planetmaker>hm... More height levels could probably be even implemented without all the mapgen changes...
11:00<_Ben_>88 is still 11
11:00<@Yexo>if it isn't some newgrfs might be broken
11:00<@Yexo>planetmaker: yes, it can
11:00<@planetmaker>rivers after all are not generated, either
11:01<@Yexo>one of the problems of that patch is that it isn't split up
11:01<@planetmaker>and still are part of the game and available for SE
11:01<@planetmaker>Yexo, I know. I tried to read it... it was... tiresome
11:01<@Terkhen>that's the biggest IMO
11:01<_Ben_>ah, it does expose the bug whee the snowline height doesn't remove the original snowline (if you move it upwards) - I do have the gradual snowline grf. Think I've read this bug report before
11:02<@planetmaker>too much focus on the mapgen stuff, too little on the other quirks. Like snow line
11:02<@Yexo>_Ben_: grf snowlines override the static setting, so if you have a snowline grf you'll have to change that one
11:02<@planetmaker>_Ben_, tiles will need a bit time to adjust to a new snowline height. Snow has to 'melt'
11:03<ZirconiumX>planetmaker: or get used by small children
11:03<@planetmaker>like a few ingame days
11:08<_Ben_>got it jusssst right, thanks for the help
11:12<_Ben_>bye
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11:13<ZirconiumX>Lets hope it worked
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11:41*ZirconiumX mutters about too many bugs
11:42<ZirconiumX>0.7.5: AEBOF: An Empty Bottle Of Flyspray <------ about 7 bugs in the 0.7 series
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12:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22410 /trunk/src/ (51 files in 7 dirs): -Document: some more bits ;)
12:15<Ammler>should make distclean not remove the openttd.grf?
12:15<Rubidium>Ammler: why would it?
12:16<Ammler>so it gets rebuild
12:16<Rubidium>that's not what distclean is for
12:17<Rubidium>distclean is, as per convention, for removing everything that was not distributed
12:17<Rubidium>maintainer-clean *does* remove openttd.grf though
12:18<Rubidium>as that, per convention, removes everything that can be regenerated
12:18<Ammler>the issue is that you need to run configure to run that :-)
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12:19<Rubidium>we're only following convention
12:19<Ammler>yeah, no problem
12:19<Ammler>openttd.grf is the only file, right?
12:20<Ammler>well it is according to the makefile
12:20<Rubidium>technically the .sq files are as well... but I can't be bothered about those
12:22<Ammler>distclean and mrproper are the same now
12:22<Ammler>that might have confused me
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12:23<Ammler>I guess it isn't on opengfx
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12:27<@planetmaker>Ammler, you're looking for maintainer-clean
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12:36<Ammler>yeah, it doesn't matter since you can't run make in openttd without configure
12:36<Ammler>hmm
12:37<Ammler>does it make sense to run "make maintainer-clean all" ?
12:38<Ammler>doesn't work
12:38<Ammler>so I assume, debian runs configure twice
12:39<Ammler>or maybe mainter-clean should only delete the grf but not depend on distclean
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12:51<Rubidium>Ammler: nope, then it'd horribly break conventions
12:54<Ammler>ok, I don't see it called in rules, will that be called somehow automatically in backgroud?
12:54<Rubidium>no, you have to call it
12:54<Ammler>so you provide it but don't use it
12:55<Rubidium>yes, like "all" is provided but not used
12:55<Rubidium>or "clean"
12:55<Ammler>ok, then it doesn't hurt, if we don't use it either :-)
12:56<Ammler>hmm, openttd install does depend on all afaik
12:58<Ammler>sounds wrong but well :-)
12:59<Rubidium>well, then "install" is provided and not used
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13:00<Ammler>no, you use install and it looks like you don't need to use all because install depends on it
13:00<Ammler>that is a bit uncommon
13:01<Ammler>as install is for root and all for the user
13:01<Ammler>so it could happen, that you get root files in your user space
13:02<Ammler>but the conventions might allow it, else you wouldn't do it :-P
13:03<Rubidium>http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/Standard-Targets.html#Standard-Targets
13:03<Rubidium>'install' Compile the program [...]
13:03<Rubidium>kinda sounds like the convention prescribes it
13:04<Ammler>"f possible, write the install target rule so that it does not modify anything in the directory where the program was built, provided ‘make all’ has just been done. This is convenient for building the program under one user name and installing it under another. "
13:05<Ammler>I
13:07<@peter1138>i hate build systems that compile shit during install, after successfully completing a make all
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13:09<Ammler>I guess, openttd doesn't
13:09-!-Chillosophy [~Chillosop@ip91350749.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
13:10<Ammler>and opengfx shouldn't anymore either
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13:15<Ammler>Rubidium: maintainer-clean: "The reason we say “almost everything” is that running the command ‘make maintainer-clean’ should not delete ‘configure’"
13:16<Ammler>hmm
13:16<Ammler>forget it :-)
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13:19<Wolf01>hello
13:19<+glx><@peter1138> i hate build systems that compile shit during install, after successfully completing a make all <-- dlltool base ?
13:19<+glx>or libtool
13:20<+glx>can't remember the name
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13:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22411 /trunk/src/ (34 files in 4 dirs): -Document: another bunch of bits
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22412 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 2 changes by 2rB
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13:48<@peter1138>"Another interesting thing would be the ability to turn off the grid. This wouldn't be too hard to do since it's just a visual change"
13:48<@peter1138>hehe
13:49<ccfreak2k>RCT allowed it.
13:49<@Terkhen>if only it was just a visual change :)
13:50<Rubidium>peter1138: raising the level of the UK by 1 meter isn't hard either, it's just a hell of a lot of trivial work
13:50<+glx>"it's just a visual change" for someone not knowing the source
13:51<@Terkhen>:P
13:51<+glx>btw it's easy to do with a newgrf
13:51<@Terkhen>yes, opengfx+ landscape does it
13:52<@Terkhen>but then all people connecting to a server are forced to play with the settings selected on it
13:52<Ammler>isn't landscape static?
13:52<+glx>action A can be static IIRC
13:53<Ammler>there is also a nogrid grf for the original users afaik
13:53<Rubidium>"can be" being the important bit ;)
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14:04<frosch123>why does everyone want to turn of the grid?
14:04<frosch123>gridless landscape is just ugly...
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14:06<andythenorth>evenings
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14:10<andythenorth>brr
14:10<andythenorth>YACD + FIRS is just insanely hard
14:11<andythenorth>(with hilly and high costs)
14:12<ZirconiumX>hello andythesouth
14:12<ZirconiumX>:p
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14:25<andythenorth>YACD might create much more use for small cheap switching engines
14:25-!-pasky_ [pasky@nikam.ms.mff.cuni.cz] has quit [Quit: leaving]
14:25<andythenorth>I need a lot of yard goats running out on switch jobs
14:25<andythenorth>NARS 2 doesn't deliver much in that respect in 1917 :P
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14:28<@Terkhen>:)
14:29<@Terkhen>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=944156#p944156 <--- I abandoned my YACD+FIRS game after running into this issue
14:29<andythenorth>yup
14:29<andythenorth>FIRS is not optimal for YACD
14:29<andythenorth>it's ridiculously hard
14:32<Ammler>with yacd, it would again make sense to have a limited firs with fewer cargoes
14:32<andythenorth>yup
14:33<andythenorth>the problem there is that there is no-one who wants to do that work :D
14:33<andythenorth>right now
14:33<Ammler>at least not with nfo
14:33<andythenorth>well there's no other way :P
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14:36<Ammler>and subcargos :-P
14:36<andythenorth>subcargos suck
14:36<andythenorth>they are stupid
14:36<andythenorth>did I mention that before?
14:37<Ammler>yeah, that is my ":-P" for
14:37<andythenorth>hmm
14:37<andythenorth>it's a shame auto-replace doesn't preserve the cargo subtype
14:38<andythenorth>it makes industrial trams a bit crappy
14:38<andythenorth>no point using auto-replace with them
14:38<Ammler>I thought, subcargoes are a kind of "different livery" for same cargo
14:39<Ammler>well, that is a bug
14:39<andythenorth>it is, but I can't fix it
14:39<andythenorth>there is also a crash when using auto-replace with articulated RVs that are in a group
14:39<andythenorth>if the force-upgrade button is used
14:40<andythenorth>can anyone else reproduce that?
14:46<andythenorth>michi_cc: changing the engine on a train appears to break the YACD links
14:46<andythenorth>I have to force the engine to run the route to re-establish the link
14:46<andythenorth>probably makes sense in the implementation, but baffled me ;)
14:47<+michi_cc>It shouldn't. Autoreplace/renew or manual change in a depot?
14:47<andythenorth>manual change
14:47<andythenorth>YACD 1.1
14:48<andythenorth>this is at station B in an A>B>C setup
14:48<andythenorth>the train waits, the cargo waits, the train doesn't load cargo
14:48<andythenorth>other vehicles do appear to continue unloading cargo
14:49<andythenorth>i.e. unload cargo headed for C
15:01<+michi_cc>Is that the only vehicle on the route or are the orders shared?
15:02<andythenorth>only vehicle on the route
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15:59<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Found it, problem is that the order backup and restore process can assign new order indexes, so the route graph has to be updated with the new order indexes. Fix in the next release.
15:59<andythenorth>ok thanks
15:59<andythenorth>:)
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16:08<gartral>is there a seperate channel for the 32bpp/ez patch/build?
16:09<@planetmaker>not that I know
16:10<gartral>is it supported here?
16:10<@planetmaker>well, it's supported by its authors supposedly
16:11<@planetmaker>they're sometimes here
16:12<gartral>I see. Ok. there's a bug in the source that prevents it from loading tar-packed GRFs. i'll report it on the tracker
16:14<frosch123>tracker? don't report it to bugs.openttd.org :)
16:14<frosch123>it's not supported there
16:14<gartral>i meant in the openttdcoop tracker (if they have one)
16:15<frosch123>oh, right, they likely actually have
16:16<gartral>heh, and thanks for answering my question
16:17<@planetmaker>yes, reporting it in the 32bpp ez tracker is a good choice
16:21<k-man>I think I turned off the little indicator that shows the % as a train loads or unloads
16:21<k-man>is that possible?
16:23<@planetmaker>yes
16:23<@planetmaker>ctrl+x. right most button
16:25<k-man>ah, thanks
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16:26<k-man>is there a way to make the font bigger in the map?
16:26<k-man>ie, the industries list in the map is too small for my eyes to read
16:27<gartral>not easily. but i have the exact same problem
16:28<@Terkhen>k-man: you need to edit your openttd.cfg
16:29<@Terkhen>there is a patch in development for changing the fonts ingame too
16:31<k-man>Terkhen, I did look in openttd.cfg and changed small_size = 8
16:31<k-man>but that did not seem to be the right setting
16:31<@Terkhen>k-man: you will also need to set small_font to a valid font in your computer
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16:31<k-man>ah...
16:31<k-man>I see
16:31<@Terkhen>I use Arial
16:31<@Terkhen>there are other fonts that might look better but I did not bother on testing much
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16:34<k-man>great, thanks Terkhen
16:35<@Terkhen>you are welcome
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16:43<frosch123>night
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17:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22413 /trunk/src/ (15 files): -Document: even more stuff
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17:24<Wolf01>'night
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17:40<@Terkhen>good night
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18:33<k-man>how do you make the exit of a station efficient? is there an example somewhere?
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18:41<@peter1138>oh
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18:42<@peter1138>so, er, how do you start a content_downloaded scenario on a dedicated server?
18:42<DabuYu>k-man: see the wiki here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Building_railway_stations
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18:51<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i think starting scenarios on server is seriously underdeveloped
18:53<@peter1138>seriously is
18:53<@peter1138>also i'm getting warnings about no data from the server for x seconds :S
18:54<@peter1138>i mean, i know, it's a 2048x2048 map, but still :S
18:55<@peter1138>oh wait
18:55<@peter1138>that's autosave, right
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19:24<k-man>so normal signals are fine for station exits?
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>i exclusively use path signals, but i'm probably not building anything close to what you will be requesting...
19:28<k-man>maybe I don't understand path signals properly but I found they did not perform as well as pre signals
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20:36<gartral>I don't quite understand any of the signals..
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---Logclosed Tue May 03 00:00:53 2011