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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-04

---Logopened Wed May 04 00:00:10 2011
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00:59<k-man>ImNotDrunk, did you get it working?
01:02<Rubidium>I'd say: retry ;)
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02:39<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:51<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
03:51*andythenorth ponders
03:51<andythenorth>might be a good idea to remove supplies from FIRS for YACD
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04:08<@Terkhen>IIRC you had plans for a "simplified" economy without supplies already
04:08<@Terkhen>oh, he's gone :)
04:11<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
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05:29<yorick>hello dih
05:29*yorick removes saveload from copy-paste patch
05:29<dihedral>hello yorick
05:31<yorick>nice to see how all of the bugs I fixed two years ago are still in it
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06:36<andythenorth>if I build a z-switchback up a mountain, will trains route through it correctly? :P
06:39<@Terkhen>yes, but that path will have a huge penalty
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08:36<andythenorth>YACD continues to kick my ass
08:37<@planetmaker>as in stealing your time or as in having you loose the game? ;-)
08:37<andythenorth>I'm making money
08:37<andythenorth>but only really on PAX
08:37<andythenorth>FIRS is quite...hard :P
08:38<@planetmaker>hm, maybe I'll test FIRS and yacd in my next try
08:38<andythenorth> coal comes from A, there's no way to build a chain to end up with supplies going back to A
08:39<andythenorth>so boosting production is really hard
08:39<andythenorth>and trains with 18t / month aren't making much money
08:39<andythenorth>if I leave them loading longer, my cargo decays too much
08:39<andythenorth>and my station ratings are in any case in the ground
08:40*andythenorth would like to abolish effect of station rating on cargo production
08:41<@planetmaker>that's a core element of the economy
08:42<@planetmaker>not as much as it can't be changed, but as in without that there's no incentive at all to do anything proper. And no way to distinguish how cargo is distributed to competing stations
08:42<andythenorth>I know :(
08:43<andythenorth>it's just not a nice effect with YACD
08:43<andythenorth>2t of 16t distributed etc :P
08:43<andythenorth>maybe I need to eliminate supplies from FIRS for YACD
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08:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think so, supplies and destinations have a good synergy
08:47<andythenorth>I'm not sure
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>just YACD's handling of small amounts should be improved
08:47<andythenorth>FIRS was designed for a different problem: making the crappy default economy more interesting
08:48<andythenorth>maybe I need to rebalance primary / secondary
08:49<andythenorth>lots of primaries is good for YACD. Lots of secondaries isn't
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i was telling that for years :p
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08:56<@Terkhen>I'm playing my first successful yacd game now, it is just a passengers network :)
08:56<@planetmaker>that works quite well, yes
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>there's way too many passengers
08:57<@planetmaker>start in a big town. Build a network. Take another such, do the same. Then connect them. And you're set
08:57<@planetmaker>I don't think there's too much
08:57<andythenorth>passengers make money rain from the sky in YACD
08:57<andythenorth>if you pick the right town(s)
08:58<Ammler>not more as without
08:58<@planetmaker>It's not like I need dozens of inter city trains to serve a 10k city. About ten still suffice
08:58<@planetmaker>But I need quite a few trams and / or busses
08:58<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: right now it is working because I am using a lot of metros for local traffic, but I reckon my network will be overwhelmed before I connect all big towns
08:58<@Terkhen>meanwhile it is fun :)
08:58<@planetmaker>But as usual: The game progresses too fast :-)
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>inner city transport can be handled with (large) trams, but inter-city with trains is really troublesome
08:58<@planetmaker>Things grow faster than I can keep up expanding
08:59<@planetmaker>But I didn't check my town growth setting. It might be possible to lower that
08:59<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, you think so? I don't find that troublesome
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09:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well, it is, with my build style :p
09:01-!-mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
09:01-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
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09:01-!-mode/#openttd [+v planetmaker] by ChanServ
09:01-!-mode/#openttd [+v Terkhen] by ChanServ
09:01-!-mode/#openttd [+v Yexo] by ChanServ
09:01-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
09:05<@planetmaker>I really don't need many trains. Eddi|zuHause and I don't think I used a build style which would be much more different from yours
09:05<@planetmaker>My towns have a simple station of 2 ... 4 tracks with train length 5 tiles
09:05<@planetmaker>Nothing fancy
09:05<@planetmaker>On a 512^2 map
09:06<@planetmaker>And 2 ... 4 IC going between two distant 10k cities with intermediate stops in one, two other similar towns doesn't seem to me like "too much"
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>my network looks similar to that, but it can't handle it properly...
09:07<@planetmaker>Mind though, that I only have about 6 such major passenger stations
09:07<@planetmaker>The rest is done by busses / trams into the suburb cities which are very near those major towns
09:08<@planetmaker>and of course my map has large parts still unconnected... I always watch too much instead of building ;-)
09:08<@planetmaker> maybe it matters... I use SwedishHouses.
09:08<@planetmaker>The house set might influence passenger generation
09:08<@planetmaker>hello Belugas
09:08<@Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:08<@Terkhen>I'm using default houses
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is likely
09:09<@planetmaker>ttrs will rather flood you with pax
09:09<@Belugas>hi hi
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>check it out:,%201.%20Dez%201962.sav
09:09<@planetmaker>hm, later. No OpenTTD here ;-)
09:13<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: I'm missing a lot of NewGRFs for loading that correctly, but in comparison I'm cheating with station spread a lot :P
09:15<@Terkhen>I'm also using metro trains from 2cc for local passengers, they can carry a lot of passengers and load/unload them quite fast
09:16<@Terkhen>then again, my biggest town is just 7000
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>yep, DBSet doesn't have that luxury
09:16<Markk>Is there any "real" subway mods yet? :>
09:16<Markk>Or some way to have signals in tunnels and/or bridges
09:17<@Yexo>no and not without a patch
09:17<Markk>Which patch would that be? :o
09:17<@Terkhen>and the patch for that is quite hacky
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>imho subways should be a tram-style network
09:17<@Terkhen>Markk: signals in tunnels and/or bridges
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>just non-blocking with trucks
09:18<@Terkhen>I agree, a new roadtype could simulate subways nicely
09:18<@Terkhen>people would complain that they can only build under roads, though
09:19<@Belugas>in other words, no hack, but the real thing
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: but that is fairly realistic
09:19<@planetmaker>I'd first complain that I cannot build different road types :-P
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>brings us back to the three-roadtypes-per-tile problem ;)
09:19<@Terkhen>I know, but they would complain :)
09:19<@Terkhen>I am an OpenTTD player, therefore I complain
09:19<@Belugas>hey.. they ALWAYS complain
09:20<andythenorth>road types could be solved
09:21<andythenorth>but I doubt it will be :P
09:21<@planetmaker>I've no doubt that they will.
09:21<@planetmaker>I just won't bet on any specific delivery date ;-)
09:21<@Terkhen>lim time->inf
09:30<@planetmaker>on a dense set
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09:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could consider the temporal logic over all commits
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>commits are discrete
09:47<@Belugas>yeah :)
09:47<@Belugas>and cement is concrete
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10:04<yorick>hooray for heap corruption
10:05<yorick>was getting crashes in the sound system...freed a pointed twice
10:09<blathijs>yorick: Heh, that sounds familiar :-)
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10:10<yorick>note to self: std::vector<int*>::~vector calls delete on the contents
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10:16<@Yexo>it does?
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>well if insert etc. make copies, those copies should be deleted on removal
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>of course i have no idea how std::stuff works
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm not eager to find out
10:23<@Yexo>it makes a copy of the pointer
10:23<yorick>Yexo: someone on ##C++ said it does, and then someone else said it doesn't
10:23<@Yexo>and as such it should only destroy the pointer, not the object pointed to
10:23<@Yexo>I'm almost certain it doesn't, as it wouldn't make any sense
10:29<yorick>I should try to valgrind it, but then I run valgrind and wait 5 minutes before it launches a black screen
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10:36<yorick>have there been any "omg virgin mary appeared on my random map" reports?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>have you checked the screenshots/savegames forum?
10:37<@planetmaker>I'm sure I've seen here. So: yes
10:40<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, you're not friend with URL tags today, are you?
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10:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'm actually going crazy now...
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>how can i make the exact same mistake twice?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>on two completely independent occasions
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12:34<@Terkhen>my network is starting to collapse :(
12:36<andythenorth>I don't worry about that
12:36<andythenorth>they can stand and wait
12:36<andythenorth>I"m making money :P
12:36*andythenorth is busy plotting how to rebuild FIRS
12:38<andythenorth>making FIRS specific to YACD is going to result in fewer FIRS users?
12:39<@Terkhen>andythenorth: IMO that's a big steep and maybe it is too early
12:39<@Terkhen>besides, if supplies are the problem you could do that "simple" economy you already had planned
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12:40<andythenorth>can't see me going back to a non-YACD game now
12:40<andythenorth>too addictive
12:40<@Terkhen>me too
12:40<@Terkhen>what problems do FIRS have with YACD?
12:40<andythenorth>I for one welcome our new YACD overlord :P
12:41<andythenorth>brb - baby action
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12:46<andythenorth>Terkhen: multiple problems
12:47<andythenorth>two are easy to describe and solve, one is hard
12:47<andythenorth>(1) FIRS primaries generally have low production, this is then split 2 or 3 ways, and routes are not profitable
12:48<andythenorth>(2) it's insanely hard to get enough cargo moving in chains to generate supplies
12:48<andythenorth>(3) FIRS secondary production ratios are a bad concept for YACD.
12:49<andythenorth>and there's a minor one (4) some FIRS industries cluster to provide short profitable routes, but this concept fails with YACD
12:50<andythenorth>3 is a killer
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12:53<@Terkhen>hmm... (1) seems like the biggest issue to me
12:53<@Terkhen>with (3) you mean the "6 tonnes for each 8 ton" part?
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12:54<andythenorth>and the need to deliver 2 or 3 cargos in combination
12:54<@Terkhen>why is that an issue?
12:54<anujmore>My local authority is not allowing me to do stuff :/ Any cheat for that?
12:54<anujmore>TTD 1.1.0
12:55<andythenorth>production ratio combination was designed to encourage players to deliver multiple cargos to a secondary industry
12:55<andythenorth>but with YACD that's not a choice the player has
12:55<@Alberth>anujmore: plant trees, or try bribing, or wait
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12:56<@Alberth>anujmore: normal strategy is to first place the stations, then turn the city upside down ;)
12:56<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the difficulty of getting enough cargo for the industry you want is the biggest problem IMO
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12:56<andythenorth>I thought so
12:56<@Alberth>anujmore: there is also a city counsil attitude setting somewhere
12:57<anujmore>Alberth: I don't know how to 'turn a city upside down'. You can edit a wiki page on how to do that.
12:57<@Terkhen>the same things happens with towns (you get a long list of towns with not much passengers), but in that case it is not a big issue
12:57<anujmore>Alberth: 'Planting trees'. In the vicinity of the city?
12:57<andythenorth>but now I have 1,000t of iron ore going into a steel mill...
12:58<@Alberth>anujmore: counsil gets upset when you terraform or clear land. I call that 'turning the city upside down'.
12:58<andythenorth>(grouped from 6 ore mines - YACD is good at that)
12:58<@Alberth>anujmore: yes, near the city
12:58<@Terkhen>I think the same would happen with ECS or any other complex industry NewGRF set; if a cargo can go to too much destinations, you end up not having enough cargo for any industry
12:58<@Terkhen>for productive industries, using destinations it is a bit stupid IMO
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12:59<@Terkhen>coal is coal, you don't care from where it comes
12:59<andythenorth>I'm only getting 250t metal out because I have no coal or scrap that want to go to that mill
12:59<anujmore>Alberth: I totally terraformed it. And cleared it. Building my dream city now. What about bribing. Where is that?
12:59<@Alberth>Terkhen: YACD makes that problem worse in the sense that it distributes cargo always in all directions
12:59<@Terkhen>and a coal mine shouldn't mind where its cargo goes as long as it is being sold
12:59<@Terkhen>it makes sense for stuff like goods and so on, not for primary cargos
13:00<@Alberth>but my mine has contracts! :p
13:00<andythenorth>I think it does make sense
13:00<andythenorth>it's FIRS that is wrong
13:00<@Alberth>andythenorth: it is not designed with cargod*st in mind, that does not mean it is wrong
13:01<@Terkhen>meh, I let my game unpaused and now all stations are overloaded again
13:01<@Alberth>anujmore: in the city window, but you have to enable it
13:01<@Alberth>Terkhen: reload from the last save game :)
13:02<@Terkhen>I wonder when I saved for the last time :)
13:02<@Alberth>tias :)
13:02<andythenorth>FIRS requires multiple cargos to be delivered within a 30 day window
13:02<andythenorth>which is also worse for YACD
13:03<andythenorth>I have to run trains that might only deliver a few times a year because cargo amounts are so small
13:03<andythenorth>I also had to turn off secondary closing, or I lose all my industries, but I could really do with a few less secondaries in this game
13:04*Alberth points to the magic bulldozer
13:05*andythenorth points back at a checkbox in his game
13:05<andythenorth>kind of cheating though...
13:05<andythenorth>I'm sure this is solvable
13:05<andythenorth>wonder what good alternatives there to combining cargo
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13:07<@planetmaker>many chains like coal mine > power plant ;-)
13:07<@Terkhen>enabling yacd only for passengers/cargo :P
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13:07<andythenorth>no fun :P
13:07<andythenorth>YACD makes for a better cargo network
13:07<andythenorth>it's FIRS that needs updating
13:08<Nite>what is YACD ?
13:08<@planetmaker>yet another ...
13:08<Nite>thx :-D
13:08<andythenorth>also...that town question comes up a lot
13:09<andythenorth>we should update the string
13:09<andythenorth>used by the 'not allowed' error
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13:10<Nite>cargo to specific tiles (not areas) reads rather complex
13:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: accept the same input cargo by many industries would help in combining
13:12<@Terkhen>Nite: I find it more intuitive than normal gameplay
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22419 /trunk/src/ (12 files in 4 dirs):
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Change: Always use the DOS palette for drawing.
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Remove: the '-i' option for palette selection.
13:15<anujmore>Ok. Guys. Someone needs to help with checking my local authority rating.
13:15<andythenorth>Alberth: can you explain? :)
13:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22420 /trunk/src/table/palettes.h: -Cleanup: Replace the somewhat mixed DOS+Windows palette with the pure DOS palette. Also blank the animation colours, which are filled from a different array anyway.
13:16<andythenorth>do you mean no destinations for primary cargo?
13:17<@Alberth>no destinations for primary cargo just shifts the problem one level
13:17<andythenorth>and it's not as much fun :)
13:17<andythenorth>it's question of industry design
13:17<anujmore>How do I check my what the local authority rates me as?
13:18<andythenorth>town window
13:18<@Alberth>in the extreme, if I have an industry that accepts all kinds of cargo, it is trivial to get enough output from it
13:18<andythenorth>^^ shame the error message doesn't (a) say that (b) provide a link to town window
13:18<andythenorth>Alberth: I could ditch the combinatory ratios
13:19<@Alberth>the other way around, have many industries that can produce the same cargo would also make it easier
13:20*andythenorth ponders
13:20<andythenorth>I could use stockpiling...
13:20<andythenorth>so no cargo is processed until all required cargo is supplied
13:20<andythenorth>> worse
13:21<V453000>that would be disastrous
13:21<@Alberth>your < 1 production ratio makes things more difficult compared to default industries, it's an extra factor that is added
13:21<V453000>makes PBI unplayable foe example
13:21<@Alberth>I don't know what eg ECS does
13:21<andythenorth>Alberth: I think it could be modified
13:21<andythenorth>some of the ratios are very low, e.g. 2/8
13:22<andythenorth>it could be more forgiving
13:22<andythenorth>e.g. 5/8
13:22<andythenorth>new problem
13:22<@Alberth>an extra setting
13:22<andythenorth>I now have (after 55 years), some supplies being produced
13:22<andythenorth>but all 48 crates want to go to one mine :(
13:23<andythenorth>another FIRS concept fails with YACD :D
13:23<andythenorth>YACD needs a newgrf spec
13:23<@Alberth>V453000: unplayable because you have to stop supplying industries?
13:23<@Alberth>YACD needs to fix that imho
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13:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I'm not quite sure whether your "it has all to be solved via newgrfs" is here the right approach
13:24<andythenorth>it's a bit late to change that approach
13:24<V453000>unplayable because you can not by any means expect having productions of primaries balanced enough to keep for example a steel mill alive
13:24<andythenorth>that's been the default approach for years :)
13:24<@Alberth>you need a finer balance of where the cargo goes imho
13:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth: not quite
13:24<V453000>you always have more of one, be it iron ore or coal
13:24<andythenorth>wrt industries it has been
13:25<@Alberth>V453000: ah, yeah that is also a problem
13:25<@planetmaker>but not wrt where cargo goes
13:25<andythenorth>I don't see how the game can know about the intentions of a newgrf
13:26<V453000>having stockpiling, stopping productions and expecting the cargo to arrive in X:Y rate is just ill-minded and does not fit the game at all
13:26<andythenorth>the cargo requirements of an industry are an aspect of the industry newgrf, not the game?
13:26<V453000>I like what FIRS does, you deliver both ->you get more produced, but it does not break anything
13:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth: and where they go is in the domain of the player and the game. Not the newgrf
13:27<@Alberth>V453000: stockpiling in its own is not so bad, the trouble comes with rigid X:Y ratios, and finite buffers
13:27<V453000>it is absolutely bad
13:27<@planetmaker>if it is limited
13:27<andythenorth>planetmaker: that points to why I think FIRS supplies concept may be invalid with YACD...
13:27<andythenorth>FIRS tries to tell player 'send this much cargo'
13:27<andythenorth>but the game doesn't know about that
13:28<V453000>planetmaker: unlimited stockpiling only doesnt break anything, but it just remains stupid
13:28<@planetmaker>what's the difference from a playing POV to 'just accept everything'?
13:28<@planetmaker>and why is it more stupid than to instantaneously process everything?
13:29<@Alberth>ramping up production slowly is nice, imho
13:29<V453000>yes, that doesnt hurt :)
13:30<@Alberth>and a finite processing speed means you cannot dump everything at one industry, which may be nice too
13:30<andythenorth>stockpiling of one cargo with YACD would be fine, it's supposed to optimise for it
13:30<andythenorth>stockpiling + waiting for all needed cargo would be a disaster with YACD
13:30<Nite>finite is good but stockpiles should be rather large ...
13:31<andythenorth>as usual stockpiling is misunderstood :P
13:31<@Alberth>rigid ratio between cargoes is bad
13:31<andythenorth>a stockpile is a big pile of stuff
13:31<Nite>playing only ecs for quite some time now
13:31<andythenorth>a stockpile is *not* turning off acceptance when a limit is reached
13:31<@Terkhen>stockpiling + YACD would probably result in a huge network collapse if you surpass the limit
13:31<andythenorth>that is called 'turning off acceptance'
13:31*andythenorth is fed up of correcting this
13:31<@Terkhen>hmm... for me they have always been the same thing :)
13:32<andythenorth>the metal industries in canadian set use stockpiling
13:32<andythenorth>but not with limits
13:33<Nite>so the stockpile stays at a level but you can deliver as i understand
13:33<andythenorth>if you deliver, you get paid, but the stockpile probably gets bigger
13:33<@Terkhen>if the stockpile limit is reached, you can deliver, you get paid but that cargo is not used for production?
13:33<andythenorth>it should be called 'gradual processing' which is (I think) what the spec actually calls it
13:33<Nite>well in ecs you often have overproduction
13:33<andythenorth>cargo is processed at a fixed rate
13:34<Nite>which forces you to build something to balance
13:34<Nite>its more a balancing act then yust produce more and more of one cargo
13:34*Terkhen is okay with that way of stockpiling
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13:35<Nite>guess i have to try yacd in first place
13:36<andythenorth>any industry that requires cargos in combination is going to be a minor disaster for YACD :(
13:36<Nite>might be true
13:37*andythenorth pondres
13:37<andythenorth>it's like pondering, but in foreign
13:37<Nite>i also think cargodestdistinations are mostly needed for pax
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13:37<@Alberth>andythenorth: you could reduce the bonus for combined cargo delivery
13:37<andythenorth>and increase the ratio for single cargo
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13:38<andythenorth>seems like the best approach initiall
13:38<andythenorth>and can be done in my current game :)
13:38<Nite>industry placement could do a lot forcing you to deliver further than next door
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13:39<andythenorth>Nite: it's a puny measure compared to what YACD can do
13:39<Nite>or could do?
13:39<andythenorth>YACD makes cargo transport way more interesting, as the cargo is trying to get somewhere
13:39<andythenorth>so transfers and such have way more purpose
13:39<andythenorth>before they were optionsl
13:39<andythenorth>optional /s
13:40<andythenorth>with YACD they're obligatory
13:40<andythenorth>and much simpler to set up
13:40<Nite>i assume cargo stocked at stations still decreases with time ?
13:41<@planetmaker>if the rating is < 50%, yes
13:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: any ideas for what to do with supplies (assuming something other than a newgrf spec)
13:42<@planetmaker>stockpile them with a cut-off of 12 months (but continue accepting) and reduce it each month by the monthly share
13:42<Nite>did never know that it only decreases below 50%
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>destinations severely suffer from the rating dropping below 50%
13:42<andythenorth>planetmaker: so back to the original supplies behaviour with a few tweaks?
13:42<@planetmaker>might be worth a try, not?
13:42<andythenorth>could be
13:43<andythenorth>I'm not sure they're even valid any more
13:43<@planetmaker>it would also fix the issue of delivering exactly every month
13:43<andythenorth>and the question of amounts
13:43<andythenorth>and effects
13:43<@planetmaker>could be a parameter like "stockpile for N months"
13:43<@Terkhen>sounds good
13:43<@planetmaker>and that could be fixed then (easier), too
13:43<andythenorth>the purpose of supplies was to give players ability to influence industry production
13:43<andythenorth>YACD prevents that
13:43<@planetmaker>like consume more from a stockpile for higher production
13:43<@planetmaker>would make it possibly easier
13:44<@planetmaker>I know that I deviate from opinions voiced previously
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13:44<andythenorth>stuff changes
13:44<andythenorth>I suspect they're a bad idea
13:44<@planetmaker>No, I don't think so
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13:44<andythenorth>I don't think YACD will work well with them
13:44<@Terkhen>there, fixed network :)
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>i do think that.
13:45<@planetmaker>Also: don't start to taylor FIRS for YACD before it's in trunk
13:45<@planetmaker>and I'm confident they'll work with yacd
13:45<andythenorth>they'll be annoying
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22422 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Tucalipe
13:45<andythenorth>production will depend on where YACD chooses to send cargo
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22421 /trunk/src/ (19 files in 4 dirs): -Fix: Replace various references to Windows palette greyscale indices with the DOS palette indices.
13:45<andythenorth>player will have no influence on industry production
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>supplies can benefit from stockpiling, regardless of YACD
13:46<andythenorth>^ I won't do that
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yacd still needs tweaks for small amounts of cargo
13:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the patch is not near finished.
13:47<andythenorth>I'm 70% convinced that supplies needs to go
13:47<Nite>why is CD for cargo so intresting at all?
13:47<@planetmaker>You should not draw any conclusions from how distribution works in your version as of now
13:47<@Terkhen>supplies is what makes FIRS unique
13:47<andythenorth>try a game and see....
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: don't remove supplies, it's the whole point of FIRS
13:47<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's a patch. It's not trunk
13:47<Nite>i would only need PD Paxdestinations ...
13:47<@planetmaker>And it WILL change behaviour
13:47<andythenorth>trunk players can use FIRS 0.6.4
13:47<andythenorth>FIRS development is stalled anyway
13:48<andythenorth>I'm quite happy developing it for me
13:48<andythenorth>there won't be another release for a long time
13:48<Nite>the destination of cargo is already determined by the industries and where they are placed i think
13:48<@Alberth>Nite: but cargo is much more fun, much more diversity in wagons that you need
13:48<andythenorth>Nite: have you tried a yacd game?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: mail, goods, food, valuables -- all benefit from cargo destinations
13:48<Nite>but ok it should be complete
13:48<andythenorth>yacd could make town control non-necessary
13:49<andythenorth>it provides much more interest for town cargos like food
13:49<@Alberth>Nite: passengers and mail is quite easy, as you immediately have cargo for both directions
13:49<andythenorth>and 'grow this town by delivering cargo' is not that interesting a goal anyway
13:49<andythenorth>whereas yacd is addictive
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: they complement each other
13:50<andythenorth>they could indeed
13:50<andythenorth>I don't think they conflict in anyway
13:50<andythenorth>if town control happens, great :)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's no point disturbing your tram network with mail cars, if there's no requirement to transport mail at all
13:50<andythenorth>except that you make money...
13:51<andythenorth>mail needs a rethink...
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you won't if your transport capacity is already exhausted with passengers
13:52<andythenorth>the point of FIRS supplies is that I can influence industry growth
13:52<andythenorth>instead of relying on crazy station rating, which fails for many networks
13:52<andythenorth>but with YACD that purpose is gone
13:52<@Terkhen>yes, you can use supplies to do what you want
13:52<@Terkhen>why is that gone? you still might want to increase the production of some industries
13:53<andythenorth>you don't have the choice to do so
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>the point of supplies is to have some basic feedback mechanism, once your initial network is built up
13:53<andythenorth>I think it might be better to revert to looking at station ratings, or transported cargo or some such to boost production
13:53<andythenorth>it will also free up some cargos, and reduce the industry count nicely
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: station ratings are even worse with yacdest
13:53<andythenorth>I think they're a crappy problem
13:54<andythenorth>I could use piglets to fix them, but that's nasty
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>don't remove supplies, they are a good concept as they are right now
13:55<andythenorth>it seems they're popular, but that doesn't mean they're good
13:55<@Terkhen>IMO marking supplies as "this cargo should not use destinations" would be enough
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13:55<andythenorth>but that's not going to be possible
13:55<@planetmaker>it would cut out the spirit of FIRS, if ther were no supplies
13:55<@Terkhen>then you regain control of supplies again
13:55<@Terkhen>why not?
13:55<@Terkhen>YACD is not finished
13:55<andythenorth>it would need a newgrf spec
13:56<andythenorth>the spirit of FIRS is 'fun gameplay'
13:56<@planetmaker>you really should stop thinking about *random patch* influencing NewGRF.
13:56<@Terkhen>given that YACD already supports deciding which cargos use destinations via parameters, I don't think that adding a new cargo flag for this behaviour would be a big issue
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>i really think destinations are ESPECIALLY useful for supplies
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. send a larger train on a roundtrip-route, and each industry along this route gets a small share of the loaded supplies
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing that needs changing is the distribution function of yacdest
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>it's working way better with cargodist
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14:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's true
14:03<V453000>aka making it noob way
14:03<andythenorth>if I had any significant quantity of supplies on my map I could test it :)
14:04<andythenorth>YACD already has certain weightings in cfg, although I'm not 100% sure what they do yet
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14:04<andythenorth>being able to specify 'favour many industries' or 'favour large cargo amounts' would be useful
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: those are yacdest problems, that's precisely why it's "not finished yet"
14:11<andythenorth>well perhaps
14:11<andythenorth>but exactly how should it solve that problem?
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the general path is "don't change FIRS to fit YACDest, change YACDest to fit FIRS"
14:12<andythenorth>no that's clearly all wrong
14:12<andythenorth>FIRS is a newgrf
14:13<andythenorth>changing the game to fit a specific industry newgrf is upside down
14:13<andythenorth>we proved recently that newgrfs have to comply with spec, not vice-versa (depot flip)
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, it is not. if a newgrf was working well with unchanged game, so any game change must carefully consider the implication on the newgrfs
14:14<andythenorth>but yacd doesn't break the nfo behaviour
14:14<andythenorth>it's an addition to gameplay
14:14<andythenorth>it's up to authors to support that correctly
14:15<andythenorth>:o :)
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yacdest is also not fully specified yet. so it's the easiest thing to change
14:15<andythenorth>I am only confused on one point: how should it change?
14:15<andythenorth>if I knew what feedback to provide to michi I could
14:16<andythenorth>currently it goes like this: please special case certain cargo labels used by FIRS, which may be used differently by other sets, but do it anyway (please)
14:16<andythenorth>but I may be overlooking something obvious
14:16<andythenorth>it happens often
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>the two things that are floating in my head are: a) each "chunk" of industry shouldn't only go to one single industry, it should spread out. and b) each industry should have at least two incoming sources for the same cargo
14:17<@planetmaker>not cargo labels need to be special but possibly certain cargo properties / flags
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>the more industries there are, the higher the number of incoming/outgoing lines should be
14:17<andythenorth>seems like an action 0 prop, or more likely, a cb
14:17<@planetmaker>like passenger cargo class uses - passenger stations. The rest cargo stations
14:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds like an enforced distribution to make sure all needed cargos are provided in some amount?
14:17<andythenorth>currently that is far from guaranteed by YACD ;)
14:18<andythenorth>isn't there a risk it just ends up with a uniform distribution?
14:18<andythenorth>(which would suit supplies perfectly, but not other cargos )
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: currently, yacdest-distribution works like majority vote: all or nothing
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>a more proportional system would be better
14:19<andythenorth>very timely ;)
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist is fully proportional, which is why it works better
14:21<andythenorth>my planes are doing very badly with yacd, which surprises me
14:22<+michi_cc>Oh my, what monster did I unleash? :)
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>planes have near zero capacity, every plane line i ever made was immediately overloaded
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: not monster. it just needs some fine scale tweaks :p
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. the other 90% of the work :p)
14:23<andythenorth>michi_cc: it's pretty much the game I was waiting for TTD to be :P
14:28<@peter1138>yacd is how i wanted cargodest to work ;p
14:28<andythenorth>ach, ship it, it's done :P
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14:37<+michi_cc>cargodest at with the wrong side of the problem (just as my two previous YACD tries did :). If you want destinations, start with the destinations and not with the routing.
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>well. it has advantages and disadvantages
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14:50<andythenorth>'death to the transfer order' :P
14:50<andythenorth>what happens if I actually use transfer in yacd? :o
14:51<andythenorth>probably nothing
14:51<andythenorth>or nothing different
14:51<@planetmaker>works as expected
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14:55<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Transfer is silently ignored, all other order modifiers work like before.
14:56<andythenorth>makes sense
14:56<andythenorth>fewer clicks for me :)
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14:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm, when the autosave-interval has an invalid value in the config, could it default to monthly instead of off?
14:59-!-ChoHag_ [] has joined #openttd
14:59<ChoHag_>Can the liklihood of a level-crossing collision be reduced?
14:59<ChoHag_>Or even removed entirely.
14:59<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: that would make perfect sense, so no.
14:59<Zuu>ChoHag_: Not in OpenTTD.
14:59<Rubidium>Zuu: lies...
14:59<Zuu>But you can write a patch.
14:59<Rubidium>1) use path signals
15:00<Zuu>Oh, yes
15:00<Rubidium>1a) don't use 1 tile signal blocks
15:00<Rubidium>2) use bridges
15:00<__ln__>ChoHag_: yes, by not having any road vehicles on roads containing level-crossings
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>2) use adjacent crossing patch
15:00<@Alberth>a) don't use trucks/buses, b) don't use trains
15:01<ChoHag_>What's the point in having road vehicles if not to use them?
15:01<Zuu>c) use AIs that build bridges.
15:01<@Alberth>ChoHag_: it reduces the chance of a collision
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>however, adjacent crossings are deat traps for articulated trucks/trams
15:03<ChoHag_>So if I have both trains and buses, the only way to avoid collisions and have level crossings is path signals?
15:04<@Alberth>quite likely
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>path signals close the crossing earlier, so slow trucks are less likely to be hit by fast trains, but on double tracks, the second track is very likely to crash into the backlog of vehicles
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15:06<@Alberth>usually, I build bridges instead of a level crossing
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>level crossings are actually quite nice as long as you have low traffic
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>bridges take more space, especially without custom bridgeheads
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>and towns don't create buildings next to bridgeheads
15:08<ChoHag_>Seems to be working.
15:12<ChoHag_>If you change AI options in the main screen does it affect already-created AIs?
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, changes on the main screen (almost) never affect existing games
15:15<ChoHag_>Can existing AI's options be changed?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>never tried that
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15:46*dihedral cries
15:46<dihedral>unity sucks, gnome 3 sucks ....
15:47<fonsinchen>kde4 sucks, too
15:47<@planetmaker>vacuum sucks
15:47<fonsinchen>I don't understand how they managed to mess it all up so thoroughly ...
15:48<dihedral>in the past the future simply was better!
15:49<dihedral>yes, they do have some nifty features - but at what cost?
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15:58<dihedral>fonsinchen, what do you use instead then?
15:58<fonsinchen>lxde and xfce
15:58<fonsinchen>I like lxde more atm
15:59<fonsinchen>but I haven't settled, yet
15:59<fonsinchen>I also tried those tiling WMs, but I didn't have the patience to properly set them up.
15:59<fonsinchen>Nice idea, though.
16:00<fonsinchen>Maybe I should try trinity. kde3 used to be my favourite.
16:02<andythenorth>how do you get any code written when finding a WM takes so long? :o
16:02-!-douknoukem [] has joined #openttd
16:03<fonsinchen>finding a WM takes so long because I don't spend much time on it. The whole situation just annoys me.
16:03-!-KouDy [] has joined #openttd
16:04<dihedral>we only have to waste time finding a WM because the current chosen software is fucking up!
16:06<dihedral>imo gnome3 is lacking a lot of stuff, esp. customizability
16:06-!-NOUK [] has joined #openttd
16:07<fonsinchen>we should write a WM called "vacuum" that combines all the misfeatures of kd4, gnome3 and unity ...
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16:10<dihedral>fonsinchen, in openttd style :-P
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16:10<Zuu>ChoHag_: You can change the settings of running AIs. You do it from the AI-debug window.
16:11<Zuu>Be aware though, that AIs tell OpenTTD which settings that are allowed to be changed in game.
16:11<Zuu>The AI-debug window do not have a hotkey by default, so you need to pull down the ?-menu to the right and select it from there.
16:13<dihedral>fonsinchen, how about enlightenment :-)
16:14-!-Adambean [] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
16:14<fonsinchen>Oh, I have tried that some years ago and it felt unfinished. I guess not much has changed ...
16:14-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has quit [Quit: Mutant Co-Op - C&C Renegade]
16:15<fonsinchen>In fact blender has an interesting integrated window manager. People coming from other 3d modelling apps are always cursing it, but I did like it.
16:15<fonsinchen>When I'm really bored I'll make a desktop WM from it.
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's fun to watch the cat follow the mouse cursor with her head, but i'm afraid it will suddenly jump up and attack the screen :p
16:23<@Alberth>I have used twm for a long time in the past :p
16:24<fonsinchen>how could you endure that?
16:24<@Alberth>what do you miss then?
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>i have one particular annoying misfeature of kde4's wm.
16:24<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22423 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Document: some network stuff
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16:25<Eddi|zuHause>when i have a window and resize it to size A, then close and reopen it, it remembered size A. so far so good
16:25<@Alberth>I mostly use the mouse to point in which window to type.
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>when i now maximise it, and de-maximise it, it also remembers size A
16:25<fonsinchen>last time I tried twm I couldn't figure out how to resize windows and it wouldn't resize or place them in any sane way automatically ...
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>but when i maximise it, close it, reopen it, and de-maximise it, then it doesn't go back to A, but to some default size
16:26<frosch123>[22:25] <Alberth> I mostly use the mouse to point in which window to type. <- that's a must have on big screens
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i absolutely hate that
16:26<frosch123>luckily almost every wm supports it
16:26<frosch123>though not as stupid as fvwm did
16:27<@Alberth>frosch123: yeah, I cannot not live without it
16:27<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: if the screen is big enough, i fail to keep track of both where the mouse is and where the focus is
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>there's also a problem with mouse focus, but maybe that's because of me not finding the setting yet
16:27<frosch123>so it gets easier if there is only one thing to follow
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: oh, that wasn't a reply to you
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>that was a followup to my previous line
16:28<frosch123>another advantage is, that it completely prevents focus stealing
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, that focus bug is: when i drag&drop something into a window, that window doesn't get focus
16:28<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I seldomly use maximize
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i use it quite often, actually
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>i have two positions from which i regularly access the computer. from desk-distance, and from tv-distance
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>if i am on tv-distance, and i want to look something up on the internet, i maximise the browser and set large font
16:29<@Alberth>you must have long arms then :p
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>then i don't have to get up
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have wireless mouse/keyboard :p
16:30*frosch123 hates everything which has batteries
16:31<frosch123>they are always depleted when i need them
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's ok, i just exchange them with the ones in the phone, takes less than a minute
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>the keyboard batteries have never been empty
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>the mouse has rechargables, last like two weeks or something
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>haven't actually measured that
16:33<frosch123>i am quite happy with wired stuff when the wires are long enough
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, that wouldn't work here...
16:33<frosch123>i am using an about 10 year old first-generation optical mouse
16:34<frosch123>never had a mouse before which survived longer
16:35<frosch123>though it is a bit "worn out"
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16:55<Zuu>I only have a wrieless mouse for remote control at the TV. I miss the Logitech driver feature to map one of the several buttons as CTRL-key so I can zoom in firefox without a keyboard. However, from experience I know it's not a good idea to install the logitech point device drivers on a laptop if you want to keep the touch pad drivers as well.
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of which, anyone know how i can configure a mouse button as ctrl on linux?
16:59<andythenorth>bed time
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>and anyone know why amarok didn't scrobble anything on for over a year?
17:00<Zuu>I don't think I ever got more than 5 buttons to work in Lunux (where button 4 and 5 is the scroll wheel).
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, my mouse has 9 buttons
17:00<Zuu>Or well, I got horizontal scroll to work on a laptop which was quite nice as in Firefox you can use it as back/forward.
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>but mousewheel left/right are awful to use on this mouse
17:01<Zuu>My wireless trackball have 7 buttons + scroll.
17:02*Zuu still waits for a better trackball than the logitech model one that is probably > 10 year old by now.
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17:31<@planetmaker>good night
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19:12<@Terkhen>good night
19:13<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Thu May 05 00:00:43 2011