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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-08

---Logopened Sun May 08 00:00:43 2011
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03:11<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:27<__ln__>happy birthday Coca-Cola®!
03:28<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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04:09<__ln__>@seen PeterT
04:09<@DorpsGek>__ln__: PeterT was last seen in #openttd 27 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 11 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <PeterT> TrueBrain: who is a PeterT in the making?
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04:42*peter1138 playing yacd 2.0 with no newgrfs :S
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04:48<@peter1138>ugh, no wagon speed limits :S
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04:49<@Terkhen>isn't that good? :P
04:49<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
04:49<@peter1138>no, it's silly
04:49<@peter1138>silly fast passenger engines running freight, in MY va... game?
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04:52*andythenorth ponders repainting most of FISH
04:53<@planetmaker>moin andythenorth
04:53<@planetmaker>still the light issue?
04:54<@planetmaker>or rather "issue" ;-)
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04:55<andythenorth>and also HEQS needs some repainting
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04:55<andythenorth>I made lighting mistakes in HEQS
04:55<andythenorth>but they work in my favour
04:55<@planetmaker>It seems to me that the need to repain that is a bit exagerated
04:56<andythenorth>I think HEQS can wait
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04:58<@planetmaker>What I'd rather like to see for FISH is a visible change when refit to liquid cargos
04:59<@planetmaker>they don't need a crane then, but rather pump equipment or alike
04:59<andythenorth>try refitting to liquid cargos...
04:59<andythenorth>tell me what happens
05:01<andythenorth>planetmaker: how is FIRS -> nml going?
05:01<@planetmaker>probably I'm just blind
05:01<andythenorth>planetmaker: or you found a bug...
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05:01<@planetmaker>not much happened since yesterday
05:02<@planetmaker>I'm just blind.
05:03<@planetmaker>no bug
05:04<@planetmaker>andythenorth: also Y3xo telling that most of FIRS should be pretty easily converted via a nfo2nml script did not exactly motivate me to actually start writing much code
05:05<andythenorth>you were going to do it manually?
05:05<@planetmaker>especially as he said to continue working on exactly that script
05:05<@planetmaker>well, yes
05:05<@planetmaker>probably stupid idea
05:05<andythenorth>will it work with nfo+defines+includes -> nml+defines+includes ?
05:06<@planetmaker>well... in principle yes
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05:06<@planetmaker>but the includes and defines are specific to the language. Thus they, of course, need a re-write, too
05:07<andythenorth>that's not a small task
05:07<@planetmaker>what probably would work is: nfo2nml the whole grf. Then extract the single industries and put them back in their own files again
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05:07<@planetmaker>the whole string defines: they'll be scrapped
05:07<@planetmaker>the whole ID defines: possibly will need to be kept
05:08<@planetmaker>but put into it or at least checked
05:08<@planetmaker>the action2IDs: no worries
05:08<@Yexo>action2IDs are unimportant so they are removed
05:08<@planetmaker>parameters: will need check
05:08<@Yexo>parameters are kept, but need checking
05:08<@planetmaker>that's what I meant with "no worries": don't matter
05:08<@Yexo>string defines are removed, used strings are written to nml language files
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05:09<@Yexo>although they don't get useful names (that'll need manual work)
05:09<@planetmaker>sed -i.bak "s/ablala/usefulname/g" *
05:09<@Yexo>yes :)
05:09<@Yexo>lots of support is missing, but a start is here:
05:10<@planetmaker> grfid: "\F1%\00\05"; <-- ??
05:10<@planetmaker>what's the % doing there?
05:11<@Yexo>F1 25 00 05 <- that's the grfid in the nfo code
05:11<@Yexo>0x20 <= c < 0x80 is considered printable and printed as ascii
05:11<@Yexo>all other bytes are escaped
05:12<@planetmaker>it needs LOTS of sed usages :-)
05:13<@Yexo>and currently it's reading the grf, not nfo, so there is no way to keep any comments :(
05:14<@planetmaker>that's acceptable, I think and probably what is needed more often (than nfo2nml)
05:14<@planetmaker>it all needs manual looking through anyway
05:15<@planetmaker>s/item(x/item(FEAT_XXX/g will be nice
05:15<@Yexo>one big problem with grf2nml is that the original image files are lost
05:15<@planetmaker>ah, yes :S
05:16<@Yexo>so I think I'll first implement action7/9 support, than try to read nfo instead of grf files
05:16<@Yexo>that part is abstracted, so not that big a change
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06:07<@Yexo>andythenorth: does firs use action6?
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06:13<@planetmaker>Yexo: grep says 'no'
06:13<andythenorth>Yexo: can't remember
06:13<andythenorth>don't see why it would currently
06:13<@planetmaker>grep -Ri -E "^ *[0-9]+ \* [0-9]+ +06" firs.nfo | head returns empty
06:13<andythenorth>no action 6 iirc
06:13<andythenorth>action 7 is used
06:14<@Yexo>planetmaker: there is often a tab instead of a space after the sprite size
06:14<@Yexo>and -1 is also used as size
06:14<@Yexo>^^ nvm that, you use preprocessed source
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06:16<@Yexo>and action E to deactivate other grfs?
06:16<@planetmaker>others? no
06:16<@planetmaker>it's evil
06:16<@planetmaker>and should be forbidden ;-)
06:17<@Yexo>older versions of same grf with different grfid
06:17<@planetmaker>oh well. would be a use case, indeed. But no, it doesn't
06:18<@planetmaker>same grep returns empty there, too ;-)
06:18<Rubidium>planetmaker: what's more evil is that action E disabling another NewGRF can disable "yourself" ;)
06:18<@Yexo>planetmaker: and action 10? could you give me the sprite numbers where it's used?
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06:28<@planetmaker>hm... sometimes there's tabs nevertheless
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06:30<andythenorth>me editor is supposed to expand tab to 2 spaces always
06:30<andythenorth>I'm not sure it does though
06:31<+michi_cc>YACD 2.1 with tiny bug fixes is out.
06:31<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: for all changes from 2.0 to 2.1, should apply to 1.2 as well (contains the fix I posted for you previously)
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06:38<@planetmaker>ok, found a working expression. No 0E
06:38<@planetmaker>grep -E "^ *[0-9]+ \* [0-9]+[^0-9]+0E" firs.nfo
06:38*andythenorth lunch
06:39<@planetmaker>Yexo: 2x action 10
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06:39<@planetmaker>sprites 33 and 113
06:39<@Yexo>thanks :)
06:40<@Yexo>I'm not going to support those, but those 2 can be easily rewritten
06:45<@planetmaker>Yexo: <-- should you need it :-)
06:46<@Yexo>instead of hacking at firs I'm now first trying to decode all regression test grfs correctly
06:46<@Yexo>so far I'm at 6
06:46<@Yexo>you can work out the already supported features by looking at the first 5 :)
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06:47<@planetmaker>hehe. Yeah, seems like a good approach
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06:54<__ln__>is it considered inappropriate to #include <conio.h> in spain?
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07:17*Alberth has no conio.h at all
07:26<@peter1138>it's always inappropriate.
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08:25<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Correction to that, the change to src/train_cmd.cpp is not identical to what I gave you previously.
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10:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... something is not right with this catenary:,%2013.%20Apr%201981.png
11:09<frosch123>what happens if you raise the land under the crossing
11:09<frosch123>(to remove the foundation)
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that solves it
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i still seem to have a small number of people who don't want to get off the train. e.g. here in train 92:,%207.%20Nov%201981.sav (i just added the airport to the schedule)
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11:49<ccfreak2k>Who are you to tell those people what they can and can't do!
11:50<@planetmaker>the vehicle owner, presumably
11:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22436 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r18969): Apply railtype property 12 (station graphics) also to station groundsprites from action 1.
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12:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: request yacd 2.2, and you can lower the corner again
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm on 1.x
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but now there's a house on it :p
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12:23<frosch123>well, it also worked the last 6 years
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12:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22437 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix: Catenary was drawn incorrectly next to level crossings with foundations. (same as r3935, but for level crossings)
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12:29<@planetmaker>someone really dug deep to find a revision there :-)
12:35<frosch123>yeah, but when i reached the el-rail branch i gave up the find a revision to blame :p
12:36<andythenorth>how many ship types is too many?
12:36<@planetmaker>well... maybe less ;-)
12:36<andythenorth>let me try it another way
12:36<andythenorth>which is more likely:
12:37<andythenorth>- the limit is set by I get bored drawing ship types
12:37<andythenorth>- the limit is set by players have too many ship types in buy menu
12:37<@planetmaker>hard to guess :-)
12:37<@planetmaker>I'd say though: not more than twice what we have now in FISH
12:37<andythenorth>sounds about right to me too
12:37*frosch123 heard there is a balrog at r0
12:38<@planetmaker>it. shall. not. pass!
12:38*andythenorth has started repainting existing FISH and it is boring but morally correct :P
12:41<Ammler>[18:37] <andythenorth> - the limit is set by I get bored drawing ship types <-- the only limit, imo
12:41<Ammler>you can always add filter
12:41<@planetmaker>there's afaik 64k sprites per grf ;-)
12:42<Ammler>hmm, can't he split to multiple grfs then?
12:42<@planetmaker>sure ;-)
12:42<Fuco>any idea why 1.1.0 keeps telling me "Unable to start server" when I host multiplayer game?
12:42<Fuco>how can I get some more info? :P
12:42<Ammler>how do you start?
12:42<@planetmaker>nope, crystal ball is broken
12:42<+glx>port already in use maybe
12:42<Fuco>I start the game, go to multiplayer, do new game
12:43<ndh>where is the bug tracker?
12:43<Ammler>guess it? (start with topic)
12:43<Fuco>glx seems like you're right
12:43<ndh>why does it say "patches & bug-reports: bugs" in the topic?
12:44<Ammler>because that is the domain for the bugs?
12:44<ndh>that's what the * means...
12:45<Fuco>well, how can I set the port? :D
12:45<ndh>is it a bug that prospect farm sometimes (20% i'd say) eats my money but doesnt create a farm?
12:46<@planetmaker>exploration is 'search'. A search is not necessarily successful
12:46<@planetmaker>And still costs
12:46<@planetmaker>It's realistic, you know
12:46<@planetmaker>people keep asking for it ;-)
12:46<+glx>you can still revert to old behaviour
12:47<+glx>somewhere in settings
12:47<@planetmaker>(yes, I like to say that when people ask 'bug' but it can be explained as 'realistic' ;-) )
12:47<ndh>people keep saying "please make prospect less successful?"
12:48<@planetmaker>no. But there's a large number who argue "I want XY because it's realistic"
12:48<@planetmaker>and then they wonder when they suddenly find a realistic thing which they don't like ;-)
12:49<@planetmaker>moral of story: realism is overrated. Fun is the better measure
12:49<ndh>i agree
12:49<ndh>if prospect has a 20% chance to fail i'd rather have the price increased to 1/0.8
12:50<@planetmaker>well. Just use 'fund all industries' ;-)
12:50<@planetmaker>it costs then 10x, but well, is 100% successful
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12:50<Ammler>is there a quickstart quide for yacd?
12:50<Ammler>git commands etc...
12:51<@planetmaker>yes. michi's page tells you what you need
12:51<@Alberth>Ammler: get the published patch, and apply it to trunk
12:52<Ammler>Alberth: then I need to figure out, which svn rev etc.
12:52<Ammler>sounds not easier
12:52<@Alberth>r22435, as per part of the patch filename :p
12:52<Ammler>and it does make it MP compatible?
12:53<@Alberth>no idea
12:55<Fuco>"Could not create listening socket"...
12:55<Fuco>r17k something can host the game just fine :(
12:56<@Alberth>ie after you close the listen port, the OS keeps the socket around for some time in case a client arrives later
12:56<Fuco>hm... I changed the port in the config file
12:56<Fuco>from 2238 (which was runnuing my vnc server) to something random
12:58<@Alberth>below 1024? :)
12:59<@Alberth>which are reserved ports, that can be used by sys admin programs only
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13:00<Fuco>no, 3k something
13:01<Fuco>3979, copied from the old config file
13:02<Ammler>openttd really should test grfcodec version first :-)
13:03<Ammler>there was quite a acient version on that server
13:03<@planetmaker>:-) makefile should do that
13:04<@Alberth>planetmaker: ./configure should, actually
13:04<Ammler>well, I see you agree :-P
13:04<Ammler>at least with "should" :-)
13:05<Ammler>michi_cc: are you interested in compile warnings?
13:05<@planetmaker>like "the world should be a better place"? ;-)
13:05*Alberth was only discussing which job should be done by which part of the build chain :p
13:05<Ammler>/home/ottdc/git/yacd/src/station_gui.cpp: In member function ‘bool StationViewWindow::HandleCargoDestEntryClick(CargoDestEntry&, int)’:
13:05<Ammler>/home/ottdc/git/yacd/src/station_gui.cpp:1491:15: warning: ‘dest_tile’ may be used uninitialized in this function
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13:06<@Alberth>TileIndex dest_tile = 0; <-- yeah, that looks uninitialized :p
13:07<@planetmaker>gcc --version ?
13:17<Ammler>gcc (SUSE Linux) 4.5.0 20100604 [gcc-4_5-branch revision 160292]
13:25<+michi_cc>I'm interested, but for that specific warning I fail to see how that can be initialized even more. Even that = 0 is actually superfluous as the switch statements have a case for all enum values.
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13:29<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: If these passengers were already at the loading station with 1.1 and weren't recalculated before loading onto the vehicle, that could still be the same bug.
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: no, the vehicle was bought after 1.2
13:30<__ln__>what's this:
13:31<+michi_cc>Well, how much after, i.e. recalculation of cargo at stations is only done in chunks and might have not happened yet.
13:32<+michi_cc>Hmm, I get a 404 on that savegame link.
13:32<@planetmaker>eddi's links always have a superfluous trailing slash
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13:33<@planetmaker>__ln__, it's potential energy
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13:41<@Alberth>__ln__: a training site in the mountains for ice skaters
13:42<@planetmaker>my bet is on a hydro power plant to satisfy peak power demand. Thus potential energy
13:43<__ln__>big enough at least
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22438 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt simplified_chinese.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 6 changes by tonny
13:47<Ammler>what else than just enable the dest is recommend for start? (yacd)
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: ah, my mistake, mistyped the date
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what slash?
13:50<@planetmaker>nvm. But it happend to me often (always) when you link to your own webspace that there is one slash too much. Maybe it's just me
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>that must be just you...
13:50<Ammler>when will new releases be published?
13:51<@planetmaker>Ammler, 7am
13:51<@planetmaker>so it's not 'nightly' but 'mornings' ;-)
13:51<Ammler>and with git speak just git fetch and then git checkout <version>, right?
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>that's more "night" than 20:00 ;)
13:52<Ammler>or git pull
13:52<@planetmaker>you might need the hard reset
13:53<+michi_cc>I think the CF always makes a new clone/checkout.
13:54<+michi_cc>git checkout is fine, but you won't get the same rev as the CF binaries then.
13:54<Ammler>yes, what to do if I want?
13:54<Ammler>(same version)
13:55<+michi_cc>git fetch && git reset --hard origin (will wipe out any local changes though)
13:59<Ammler>hmm, how does that command know, which version I want?
13:59<+michi_cc>It gives you the current HEAD of the remote repo origin (which is my "offical" repo in this case)
13:59<Ammler>ah well, I will figure out when I make the update
14:00<Ammler>well, right now HEAD is 2.1, but I need 2.o
14:03<+michi_cc>Replace origin with yacd_2.0 (you might have to do a git fetch --tags first, if the clone is older, and you haven't fetched in-between)
14:06<Ammler>michi_cc: with checkout, I would do the same but keep local changes If I have
14:06<Ammler>checkout = update, right?
14:07<Ammler>so reset is a kind of revert?
14:07<+michi_cc>checkout tries to preserve uncommited changes (it can fail of course)
14:07<Ammler>(just trying to transfer the svn commands to git :-)
14:08<Ammler>yes, same with svn update
14:08<+michi_cc>No, reset is not like revert, as it doesn't create or removes any commits.
14:08<Ammler>well, on svn revert doesn't either, does it?
14:08<+michi_cc>reset means to make your current ref (i.e. most of the time the master branch) point to something else.
14:09<+michi_cc>The --hard makes it replace the working copy with the new target as well, otherwise you simply keep whatever is currently on your hd.
14:13<+michi_cc>Normally, git checkout is totally fine to get a specific revision, the reason I recommend reset --hard here is to make sure the rev detection will always result in the same.
14:13<andythenorth>why is it so often suggested that blending A + B is better than choosing A or B
14:13<andythenorth>A+B often = crap
14:17<Ammler>and openttd will only build new bundles, if there is a new release?
14:18<Ammler>andythenorth: A+B is easier parseable
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14:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22439 /trunk/src/blitter/base.cpp: -Fix (r22291, r22426): Drawing lines of length zero failed.
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14:28<Eddi|zuHause>the useful airports come way too late...
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14:39<@Alberth>you start the game too early
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15:09<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: I've no idea at all how that happened, but your train has more cargo loaded than its capacity, which is why some cargo isn't unloaded.
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>err... what?
15:11<+michi_cc>There are more cargo packets on the train that it's capacity, but the total count doesn't match the actual cargo packets.
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15:18<__ln__>like this?
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>unhealthy when the train is electric :p
15:21*peter1138 wonders how he is meant to take 1 pill 4 times a day, on an empty stomach...
15:25<Ammler>a standard game has too many different destinations for cargos
15:26<Ammler>how do I find the destionations for "others"?
15:27<Ammler>is there some hidden detail gui?
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15:29<+michi_cc>Ammler: Other means randomly chosen from all possible destinations. It's meant as a small reward for very well connected networks (and it's also a catch-all code-wise).
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15:33<Ammler>michi_cc: that means, if I connect one "other", it will use that?
15:36<+michi_cc>No, it means that 5% (by default, and on average) of all generated cargo packets will get a random accepting destination assigned. It's also a catch-all for otherwise unaccounted traffic, e.g. pax to a company HQ (as there is no HQ object in the code).
15:39<Ammler>somehow, it should not use every possible destination to pick one, it should create a "pool" (maybe per user)
15:40<Ammler>I mean, you need to connect everything to everywhere to get success
15:41<+michi_cc>If you define success as the last possible 5% cargo, then yes. You can always change economy.cargodest.random_dest_chance if you don't like that.
15:42<Ammler>well, I meant more to connect the other 2 defined dests
15:42<Ammler>they are for every industry another 2
15:42<Ammler>so you basically could make p2p networks
15:43<Ammler>quite ugly
15:44<+michi_cc>That's mostly unavoidable if the amount of secondary industries isn't much lower than the amount of primary industries, as each secondary needs to get supply from somewhere.
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15:45<Ammler>yep, that is what I meant, there are so many secondary industries in normal games so you can use a nice one and let the others die
15:45<Ammler>but with yacd you can't chose :-)
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15:45<Ammler>so there should be slightly less sencondaries and maybe another closing
15:46<+michi_cc>Nobody's forcing you to deliver to all secondary industries, if an industry closes the incoming links will be moved to other industries.
15:46<Ammler>but that you can't make money
15:47<Ammler>as the game income is based on transport 100% to make money
15:48<Ammler>you need to build much more complex network to transport around 50%
15:48<Ammler>that is quite impossible for start
15:48<+michi_cc>Destinations with higher production get a higher share of the cargo form each source. And I don't think YACD has to be easy. Start with pax for easy money.
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15:54<Eddi|zuHause>this is seriously the last time i play without passenger reduction...
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>whenever i create a new link, it is immediately saturated
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16:03<@Alberth>michi_cc: try pax in the tropical climate :)
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16:23<Pulec>any fans of train simulators?
16:23<V453000>guess that involves "being realistic" :D
16:29<Rubidium>yeah, it's fun to test your software changes on train simulators to see when the change fails ;)
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16:38<V453000>when I get a disconnection from multiplayer game, why does an error message appear every second? That makes it unclosable
16:39<V453000>which makes it 100% annoying
16:40<Rubidium>because that's the easiest way
16:42<V453000>well why does one need to know it in the first place
16:42<V453000>like this I see I cant do anything so I lagged out and I have a message window I cannot close because it reappears
16:43<Rubidium>you can't do much anyhow, after all no commands are executed
16:44<Rubidium>it's just to make obnoxiously clear that the connection is failing, and not someone joining and pausing the game or something
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16:46<V453000>well, I understand that, but why can I not be able to close and kill it
16:46<Rubidium>because to update an error message you have to trigger a new one
16:47<V453000>it is enough to know once that I lost connection
16:47<Rubidium>but you might not have
16:47<Rubidium>could be very flaky internet
16:48<Rubidium>it's kinda like the lag counter of irc
16:49<V453000>that at least doesnt spam me with error messages :)
16:50<Rubidium>well, there's an easy way to prevent them
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16:51<V453000>get a better connection or stop playing openttd, I know
16:51<Rubidium>I would've said: stop multiplayer, or start hosting the server
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16:51<V453000>that is equally stupid
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16:54*Rubidium wonders what's so terribly bad about this when the connection is likely shot anyway
16:54<Rubidium>I could revert it, but then it could take hours before OpenTTD actually notices that it lost connection
16:55<V453000>yes, but when you make some command it detects it
16:55<V453000>so ... if you actually want to do something, you see that you are disconnected ... which is the moment when you need to know it
16:56<Rubidium>it'd rather know it the moment it happens, instead some (long) time later when I'm building something
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16:57<Rubidium>but then... I'm most of the time watching the flow of vehicles before making a change
16:57<V453000>it might get suspicious if the vehicles stop moving ;)
16:58<Rubidium>yeah, with all the autopausing on some servers that's not something noticable
16:58<Rubidium>after all, they stop moving all the time
16:58<V453000>well, sure but you get a console message that it is pausing because <thing happening> but only lag doesnt say anything so it is clear :)
16:59<Rubidium>anyhow, if it itches to much... scratch it yourself, or find someone who scratches it for you. Don't expect me to scratch it though ;)
16:59<V453000>it isnt anything big, it just is really annoying
16:59<Rubidium>& night y'all
16:59<@Terkhen>good night Rubidium
17:03<@SmatZ>good night Rubidium
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17:06<@Alberth>michi_cc: Can it be the case that a train does not unload cargo for some destination after I remove that destination from the set that the train visits?
17:06<@Alberth>cargo seems bound to a specific station rather than a destination
17:09<+michi_cc>That should not happen with anymore with 1.2/2.x. If it still does, a savegame from before and instructions what you did would be very helpful.
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17:31<@Alberth>yacd 2.1
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17:33<@Alberth>train 1 has 2 routes, directly to the power plant like train 2, or indirectly. While it is loading, change the destination (not sure I unshared the order in that save)
17:33<@Alberth>it will only unload the coal loaded for the new destination
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17:59<@Terkhen>good night
18:00<@SmatZ>good night Terkhen
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18:11<+michi_cc>YACD 2.2 is out, dedicated to Alberth.
18:12<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: should apply to 1.2 as well.
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---Logclosed Mon May 09 00:00:00 2011