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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-11

---Logopened Wed May 11 00:00:32 2011
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01:57<@planetmaker>alx: provided you want an answer: it's even more mandatory to actually *ask* the question instead of asking whether the can be help or anyone knows or... other meta-questions
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02:13<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:18<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
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02:57-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association #wwottdgd #openttd @#openttdcoop
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03:12<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
03:12<@planetmaker>moin dihedral
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05:14*peter1138 grumbles at compiz being shit
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05:26<ChoHag_>Are cars actually usable as a taxi service?
05:27<@planetmaker>depends on the definition of 'usable' and 'taxi service'
05:27<@planetmaker>and 'car'
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05:32<ChoHag_>Usable as in passengers get in and out, taxi as in they pay and car as in ... car.
05:32<@planetmaker>generally cars will have too low capacity to be of any use within ttd world
05:32<Chris_Booth>planetmaker: you could make a grf of a taxi, make lots of annoying 1 way streets and dead end, then give you taxi no orders this would mean that the taxi would always be lost
05:32<ChoHag_>I need to build something before the LAs get pissed off with me, but the village is too small for buses.
05:32<@planetmaker>Usable as eye candy: yes
05:33<Chris_Booth>ChoHag_: then you need trees
05:33<@planetmaker>ChoHag_: why would the size of the vehicle be bothersome
05:33<Chris_Booth>delete all the trees around the village and replant them
05:33<ChoHag_>Well I don't want to lose money.
05:33<Chris_Booth>and presto the town will love you
05:33<ChoHag_>Chris_Booth: Oh no, they're happy, I just want them to stay that way.
05:34<ChoHag_>I'm trying to connect passengers in all the towns I pass railways by/through.
05:34<ChoHag_>ie. all the towns in which the LAs notice me.
05:34<ChoHag_>That way I'm hoping my transport network will grow in a moderately realistic fashion.
05:34<Chris_Booth>then make a bus route, and transfer the passengers to the main station
05:35<Chris_Booth>realism? what is this realism?
05:35<ChoHag_>They don't want to send any passengers to places I want to go.
05:35<Chris_Booth>sounds strange to me
05:35<ChoHag_>Game => Fun => Vaguely realistic.
05:36<@planetmaker>playing yacd?
05:36<@planetmaker>then just connect a bus terminal to your train station and add two stops to other destinations within the town and have a single bus circle
05:37<Chris_Booth>yacd is cargodist?
05:37<ChoHag_>OK well yes that'll happen eventually.
05:37<ChoHag_>But in the meantime, will passengers use cars?
05:37<Chris_Booth>the game doesn't have cars
05:37<Chris_Booth>unless you make them
05:37<ChoHag_>Will passengers use cars if I have a cars GRF?
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05:37<@Terkhen>there is a generic cars newgrf, passengers will use them but they are not profitable
05:37<@Terkhen>well, they are, but not much
05:38<ChoHag>That's not a problem. I have coal and oil if I want profitable.
05:38<Chris_Booth>what is yacd Terkhen?
05:38<ChoHag>Very few towns are currently big enough to make passengers profitable.
05:38<Chris_Booth>then use coal
05:38<Chris_Booth>or grow towns
05:38<@planetmaker>ChoHag: passengers are profitable, if you ship them to the station
05:38<@Terkhen>Chris_Booth: check the forum thread
05:38<@planetmaker>they'll want to go to big towns for sure ;-)
05:39<Chris_Booth>got a link Terkhen? i am lazy and can't be bothered to search tt-forum
05:39<@Terkhen>me too
05:39<ChoHag>They'll become more profitable in the 90s or 2000s.
05:40<ChoHag>In the meantime, keep the LAs happy, make towns grow with basic passenger services, ship raw materials to make $big_bucks.
05:40<@Terkhen>yes, I use cars mostly for keeping towns happy in small towns
05:40<@planetmaker>ChoHag: in my yacd game passengers were what got me going
05:40<@planetmaker>making more money than industries
05:41<@planetmaker>but I started in two big towns and build a railway line in between
05:41<@planetmaker>then the other towns followed
05:41<ChoHag>Oh well I'll run an experiment in this village and see how good my real life car is in the game.
05:41<@planetmaker>as usual small villages got service last ;-)
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06:59<ChoHag>The economy is going to hell.
06:59<ChoHag>Does it have trends and is there a console command to view/set it?
07:00<@planetmaker>but there's a smooth and a 'normal' economy setting
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07:00<@planetmaker>but whether it goes up or down... is nothing one can influence
07:01<ChoHag>What does the steady/fluctuating difficulty setting do then?
07:01<@planetmaker>the size of an individual change
07:02<@planetmaker>10% change vs. 50% change or so
07:03<ChoHag>Well it needs to go up dammit! Only 4 industries have production > 100.
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08:32<@Yexo>ChoHag: might be useful, it explains how industry production works
08:32<@Yexo>and when it goes up/down
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09:35<ChoHag>SWMBO has gone. I can get back to the important task of building train networks.
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10:18*Belugas puts on Bloody Time Zones - Chapel Rock
10:22<@Belugas>I love that piece :)
10:23<@Belugas>quite a riff you came up with, peter1138
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10:49<ZirconiumX>hello all
10:52<ChoHag>Why is my vehicle autorenew not working?
10:53<ChoHag>The same vehicle is still available and I have loads of money.
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10:55<@planetmaker>no access to depot?
10:55<@planetmaker>no money?
10:55<ChoHag>Neither is a problem.
10:56<ChoHag>Even after I send the vehicle for servicing myself it won't replace.
10:56<ZirconiumX>have you turned auto-renew on in advanced settings?
10:56<ChoHag>Breakdowns are off, if that matters.
10:56<ChoHag>It's on. It's been toggled to try resetting it.
10:56<ZirconiumX>how old re the vehicles
10:57<ChoHag>Some are ancient nw.
10:58<ChoHag>17 years of 12, 18.
10:58<ChoHag>Some buses are 40 years old.
10:58<ChoHag>As breakdowns are off it's not been urgent.
10:58<@planetmaker>Did you enable autorenew for all vehicles?
10:59<ChoHag>Can it be picky?
10:59<@planetmaker>you can ask it to only renew a group
10:59<@planetmaker>depends where you ask
11:00<@planetmaker>which group window: general list. or single groups
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11:00<ChoHag>There is no renew option if all/ungrouped, only for each individual group.
11:01<ChoHag>No I tell a lie. That's replace in each individual group, not renew.
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>renew is a global option in advanced settings
11:02<ChoHag>Yes. And it's on.
11:03<ChoHag>Well it's not working.
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>you have money? your trains find the depot? you waited at least one full service interval? you excluded groups from autoreplace?
11:04<ChoHag>Yes, yes, yes, no.
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>does it work when you manually send the train to depot?
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's weird...
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>not that i actually tried autorenew lately...
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>"133.7 GiB free"
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12:40<andythenorth>would it be useful to show loading speed of vehicles in gui?
12:41<@planetmaker>at least in purchase list
12:41<andythenorth>newgrf can handle that
12:41<andythenorth>but should it?
12:43<@planetmaker>hm... care to write a patch?
12:43<andythenorth>right now my baby is trying to eat the magsafe so probably a bad time :P
12:47<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: Muse?
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13:00*andythenorth is finding ferry boats confusing
13:01<andythenorth>the capacity varies wildly, not in relation to size
13:04<@Terkhen>FIRS ferry boats?
13:04<andythenorth>the same 40m long ferry might carry 20 pax or 1,000 pax
13:05<andythenorth>depends on licenses, where it's operated, whether it's commuter or long distance, what life saving equipment it needs, and whether it's standing, seating, or seats+tables
13:05<andythenorth>none of which is relevant for fun gameplay :P
13:06<@Terkhen>1000 persons on 40m? :D
13:07<andythenorth>well maybe a few less
13:07<perk11>it should cary prisoners
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13:08<@Terkhen>passengers as bulk cargo?
13:12*andythenorth has design ponder
13:12<andythenorth>do the vehicle ferries need to be vehicle ferries?
13:13<@peter1138>cargo subtypes!
13:13<@Terkhen>what does imply being a vehicle ferry?
13:14<andythenorth>it's (a) got a vehicle deck drawn in the sprites (b) the PAX capacity is lower than you'd expect for the size of boat
13:14<andythenorth>(c) it can refit to some amount of freight cargo
13:15<@Terkhen>oh, I remember someone complaining about that, I didn't pay much attention
13:15<@Terkhen>IMO it does not matter much
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13:42<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle ferries need to load actual vehicles :p
13:43<@Terkhen>if livestock can be considered as both actual livestock and milk, passengers can be considered as vehicles too
13:44<@planetmaker>vehicle: ox
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>an ox can carry 1 person or 0.3 tons of cargo?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle: shepherd dog. can "carry" 30 sheep
13:47<@Terkhen>can be refitted to carry 200 fleas
13:48<@planetmaker>or 15 goats
13:48<George>frosch123: Are you here?
13:48<@Terkhen>hi George
13:48<George>A question about FS#3281
13:50<George>I'm currenty again trying to create a new movement model for ARVs and I'm in lack of required vars :)
13:50<George>I'm looking for help!
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>i've had some 6x stuff for trains lying around somewhere
13:51<George>I need a var like var 45 that gives information about the curvature info 2 vehs back\forward
13:52<George>Eddi|zuHause: the only var6x on the wiki is var 60
13:52<George>What new vars do you have?
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, was a patch...
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>searching for it right now
13:52<George>what does it provide&
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13:54<Eddi|zuHause>ah, it was here:
13:55<Eddi|zuHause> <- matching forum post
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13:56<@Terkhen>the testing binary is still there :P
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>George: i'd be glad if you could give some opinion on whether it works at all, or what additional data you think is needed
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>also, whether frosch123's suggestion of bitstuffing it all into one variable would be sufficent
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13:59<George>Why didn't you PM me about it? I would test it 5 months earlyer!
13:59<George>Starting testing
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm... PM didn't cross my mind ;)
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>will do that next time ;)
13:59<George>I just missed that topic :(
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>George: but wouldn't you get an email if a comment to FS task was added?
14:01<George>Well, it should be that way ... But I do not see such e-mail. May be it went to spam on the server :(
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, patch doesn't run away... ;)
14:03<andythenorth>too many boats in the world
14:03<andythenorth>not all can fit in the game well :P
14:03<George>Eddi|zuHause: >anyway, patch doesn't run away... ;) ?
14:03<George>what do you mean?
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>George: i mean it doesn't get lost just because you test it 5 months later
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>PS: maybe you find this post interesting/have comments:
14:06<George>and could you compile it based on the more recent version?
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: ^ ?
14:06<@Terkhen>not now, I'm on linux right now
14:06<@Terkhen>I could do it tomorrow
14:10<@Terkhen>what version, 1.1.0 or trunk?
14:14<George>Eddi|zuHause: You wrote just my attempts!
14:15<George>while I was thinking about 22 deg
14:15<George>why do you think 15 deg is better/
14:15<George>But definitly I need you patch to provide it
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>George: in most situations, you have the vehicle in front turned, and in the next step, the vehicle itself turned and the next vehicle is still old direction. with 22.5° graphics, both situations need same graphics. it's difficult to prevent the vehicle from "jumping" at that point
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>with 15°, you have different graphics for each
14:20<George>Hm. in my model I did not expect that problem. I have to think about it
14:21<George>So, could you compile a win32 exe with this diff an the last nighty/stable?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>i can't compile for windows.
14:23<George>And how did you do
14:24<George>Did Terkhen compiled it?
14:25<@Terkhen>yes, I was asking which version do you need
14:25<George>Terkhen: Could you compile the patch with the latest nighty/stable (what is easier for you)
14:26<@Terkhen>either is easy, but I can't do it until tomorrow
14:26<George>Ok, I'll wait till you can
14:27<George>In case nighty is as easy as stable using the latest nighty fits better
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14:29<George>Thank you!
14:31<andythenorth>is there any point in the FISH passenger boats refitting to all cargos?
14:31<andythenorth>should I limit them to express cargos or something?
14:32<andythenorth>the thinking was that ships can pretty much carry anything
14:32<@planetmaker>Well... Personally I like refittability - even when there are good arguments for your suggestion
14:32<andythenorth>then cars and flat trucks can carry pretty much anything, but we don't generally allow them to 'refit all'
14:33<@planetmaker>don't we?
14:33<@planetmaker>I do ;-)
14:33<@planetmaker>But I adjust cargo capacity to encourage other wagons
14:33<@planetmaker>which are dedicated to the other cargos
14:34<@planetmaker>and obviously I disallow passengers for box cars. Illegal immigration is not my business ;-)
14:35<@planetmaker>hm... every index of the colour palette is valid :-)
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>George: posted a slightly updated patch with new variable 64
14:35<@planetmaker>hm... wrong channel :-P
14:36<George>Eddi|zuHause: Where?
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>in the FS task
14:36<George>Please inform Terkhen
14:36<@Terkhen>consider myself informed :P
14:37<George>So he would compile with the new version
14:37<@Terkhen>tomorrow I'll pick up the latest patch in the task and compile it against trunk
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14:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth: is there a reason to limit the refit capability of the ships?
14:51<andythenorth>not particularly
14:51<@planetmaker>Then... why?
14:51*andythenorth thinks about it
14:52<andythenorth>it's a two-step case
14:53<andythenorth>the vehicle ferries should show something when loaded
14:53<andythenorth>so what should they show when loaded with freight?
14:54<andythenorth>for each cargo type?
14:54<andythenorth>and from which RV set?
14:54<andythenorth>base graphics?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>probably a stupid idea :p
14:56<@planetmaker>not a bad idea, I think
14:56<@planetmaker>you have enough heqs ;-)
14:57<@planetmaker>ships can't use child sprites...
14:57<@Terkhen>generic cars? :P
14:57<andythenorth>for PAX yes
14:57<andythenorth>but for freight...?
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15:08<andythenorth>also - if the PAX ships refit to freight, should the freight ships refit to PAX?
15:09<andythenorth>and why can't the freight ships refit to mail?
15:09*andythenorth has no idea
15:09*andythenorth just codes it :P
15:17<@peter1138>mixed-cargo ships
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15:21*andythenorth checks newgrf spec :P
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15:44<andythenorth>distributing FIRS petrol with YACD is interesting
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16:09<andythenorth>I have trains and ships hauling wood from A to B
16:09<andythenorth>and wood from B to A
16:09<andythenorth>how handy
16:09<andythenorth>backloads = profit :D
16:09<andythenorth>YACD ftw :P
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16:39<@SmatZ>KDE 4.6 changed the order in which windows are switched when you use mouse wheel on the task bar
16:40<@SmatZ>to the more logical one
16:40<@SmatZ>now I am just confused, because I always switch in the wrong direction :p
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>the last change to the task bar i noticed was horrible...
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't actually use the mouse wheel on the taskbar, though. so i haven't noticed any change there
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16:47<@SmatZ>I didn't know you can have two rows in the taskbar
16:48<frosch123>wasn't that the default at some point?
16:50<@SmatZ>there are two rows in KDE 3.5
16:50<@SmatZ>I have been using 4.x on my main computer for so ong time I forgot how KDE 3 was better :P
16:50<@SmatZ>there was usable desktop
16:51<@SmatZ>I don't have anything on the desktop in KDE 4
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16:54*andythenorth needs a pipeline :P
16:55<frosch123>SmatZ: i guess i did not use kde 4 for more than 24 hours in total
16:55*Rubidium hands andythenorth a pipeline from his CPU
16:55<frosch123>do you have any spare ones?
16:55<Rubidium>basically yeah :(
16:55<Rubidium>can't run both cores at full capacity at the same time for long
16:56<andythenorth>it's not very good at moving oil to my dock though :P
16:56<Rubidium>as then it'll happily go into overheat protection :(
16:57<+glx>tried cleaning or new thermal paste ?
16:58<Rubidium>glx: not personally, but the guys(!) fixing stuff under warranty did
16:58<+glx>I don't call that fixing ;)
16:58<Rubidium>guess I should bother calling them again
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17:01*andythenorth wants to be able to pay a fee to an industry and have YACD roll a dice for changing destinations
17:02<@Yexo>andythenorth: that's too easily abused when you have competitors (either AI or multiplayer)
17:03<andythenorth>true :)
17:04<Rubidium>oh... good news... looks like they're not selling the model I've got anymore, then maybe I can get them sending me a comparable replacement model (hoping they think the same about comparable as me)
17:04<Rubidium>s/comparable/similar/ ?
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17:10<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: don't they have some spare (or "repaired") in stock for replacement?
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17:10*andythenorth should really upgrade to latest YACD
17:10<Rubidium>I hope not, as it's basically the model that's defective; it fails with getting out the heat
17:10<andythenorth>but unpatching is always a hassle :P
17:19<andythenorth>bed time
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17:42<@Yexo>playing with YACD is fun, but I find it totally impossible to transport all local passengers
17:42<@Yexo>I'm not using any newgrfs, so only the default buses are usable
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>passenger generation is way too high
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>(this was also true for any previous destination patch)
17:45<Vikthor>I find it hard even with trams for large cities
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>trams are ok, if you separate them with timetables properly
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>i find inter-city trains much harder
17:46<@Yexo>seperating them without any autoseperation patch is too much work
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>unless you build like a 6-line main track, with trains every 2 tiles
17:46<Vikthor>Yes thats another problem, too much micromanagement
17:47<Vikthor>to set up all lines to smallest villages and maintain them well serviced and profitable
17:48<@Yexo>making profit isn't hard at all, at least with passengers
17:48<@Yexo>haven't tried cargo yet, that's probably more difficult
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17:49<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS cargo is pretty difficult, as initial production is fairly low in the first place, and then it's split up between several target industries
17:49<@Yexo>in every town I've connected so far I'm only transporting around 25% of all possible passengers, and my network is already overflowing
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>airplanes are hopeless :p
17:50<Chris_Booth>Airplane sucked in CargoDist as well
17:50<Chris_Booth>since they where so fast
17:50<@Yexo>the capacity of airplanes is too low
17:50<Chris_Booth>but couldn't handle the capacity
17:50<@Yexo>compared to trains
17:50<Chris_Booth>even with A380s and big airports
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>the airports block too much, planes spend most time circling
17:51<Vikthor>Eddi|zuHause: I am playing with FIRS and I have failed to produce anything like working eceonomy with all the supplies and stuff needed, I make most money from pax and mail and some fish and food
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>Vikthor: ignore the supplies at first, get the primaries connected to the secondaries
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>then set up some sort of circular route with a train carrying supplies
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>i mostly put a supplies wagon to the primary cargo trains right from the start, then i can send the roundtrip-train also to the secondary station and it will finally pick up the links
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>so if i have like a livestock train, then i put a farm supplies wagon to it. it goes to the stockyard, drops off the livestock, picks up a share of the farm supplies, and goes back
17:55<Vikthor>well, I probably selected too large map, without supplies primary production is too low and when split to several dests across map, I can't make enough profit on that(too far for RV, too low production for train)
17:55<@Yexo>adding a single supplies wagon to primary cargo trains is a good idea
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>the ratio between primaries and secondaries is probably not right
17:58<Chris_Booth>is YACD the big new thing then?
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>i played a small map, 128x256, because with the prospect of no savegame compatibility, i wanted to get through the game quickly
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18:00<Chris_Booth>that has always annoyed me, why if I merge my branch into a new trunk will it not open an old brached saved?
18:00<Chris_Booth> since the old trunk saves can be opened
18:00<Chris_Booth>but not old branches
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: because the savegame version is linear
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot merge two history lines, you must choose one. either old branch or old trunk
18:01<Chris_Booth>so old trunk + new branch would work?
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes. if the patcher makes the effort. which they usually don't.
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>the MiniIN had a system in place where it could load at least the last few branch versions and all trunk versions
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18:03<Eddi|zuHause>but it needs additional maintenence effort
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>which is taken away the attention from developing the patch
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>so the patch author can't be blamed for not pursuing it
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>a patchpack author could do it. ChillCore tried with his patch pack
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>as far as i can tell, he made a few mistakes inbetween, though ;)
18:05<ChoHag>Can the horns from the Generic Cars GRF be turned off?
18:05<ChoHag>Because bloody hell that's annoying.
18:06<@planetmaker>turn off all sound
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>decompile the grf and remove them?
18:06<@Yexo>either turn all sounds off or don't use that grf
18:06<ChoHag>Thought it might be something like that.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>did the readme tell anything about parameters?
18:07*ChoHag shrugs
18:12<@planetmaker>should be the first thing to consult ;-)
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19:57<Eddi|zuHause>"heavy earthquake in southern spain"
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>"rumor has it that chuck may get renewed for 13 episodes"
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---Logclosed Thu May 12 00:00:50 2011