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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-13

---Logopened Fri May 13 00:00:07 2011
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01:34<@planetmaker>moin
01:35<Rediz>morning
01:50<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:54<Wolf01>hello
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03:57<__ln__>how do you do
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04:14<Markk>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8iftZ8CngA
04:14<Markk>?
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04:40<dihedral>http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html
04:40<dihedral>morning ^^
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04:49<@planetmaker>:-D
04:49<@planetmaker>moin dihedral
04:49<@planetmaker>even though I resent the comparison
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04:57<dihedral>planetmaker, but it is rather creative :-)
04:58<dihedral>i do not think the comparison is quite valid either - however i think they did make a very good job of their piece of 'art' :-P
05:02<@planetmaker>It's quite creative and I like it for that. Still the comparison is in a way 'inverted'
05:03<@planetmaker>The artistic job is well done.
05:03<@planetmaker>and I'm sure that it would also make good material for a satire programme or alike
05:03<dihedral>:-P
05:03-!-a1270 [~a1270@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd
05:03<@planetmaker>Especially given that this was directly authorized and supervised by a person awarded the nobel peace price previously...
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05:10<Eddi|zuHause>"rebels" - "terrorists"... not a lot of difference
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>but the link doesn't load
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>... or at least veeeeeeeery slowly
05:20<@planetmaker>normal speed here
05:23<Chris_Booth>planetmaker just the person I needed to talk to, I have found another bug in OpenGFX+ Trains.
05:23<Chris_Booth>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7429567/UnCoop%2C%209th%20Jan%202014.png
05:23<Chris_Booth>there is an image of it do you already know this bug? or shall I bug report it?
05:24<Chris_Booth>the T.I.M and AsiaStar are missing half od there locos when on the diagonal
05:28<@planetmaker>Thanks, But that's already fixed in the nightlies :-)
05:28<@peter1138>heh, offset bug
05:28<Chris_Booth>yes
05:28<@planetmaker>ignoring the (different) sprite height rather
05:28<Chris_Booth>aaaah ok then planetmaker just wanted to check befor I made the report
05:29<@planetmaker>nah, it's really appreciated :-)
05:29<Chris_Booth>I know how annoying it is to have same bug report more than once
05:29<@planetmaker>it's ok
05:29<Chris_Booth>then I can blame V for loading an old version of openGFX+
05:29<@planetmaker>better than not having it reported at all :-)
05:29<@planetmaker>No, you can't, I'm afraid.
05:29<@planetmaker>The fixed version is not available from bananas
05:31<@planetmaker>maybe I should just re-release it for that bug as it's quite ugly...
05:32<@planetmaker>but as no-one reported it yet... (you are afaik indeed the first!)... I didn't yet bother ;-)
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05:38<@peter1138>who's V?
05:40<Chris_Booth>peter1138 V453000, I was just to lazy to type it. he created the map
05:41<@peter1138>oh, opengfx+
05:41<@peter1138>missed the +
05:41<Chris_Booth>lol, he isn't in channel you tab autocomplete fails
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07:07<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth, now you may complain why he didn't use ogfx+trains 0.2.5 :-P
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07:19<@Terkhen>:)
07:20<@planetmaker>it's only one bug, but ugly to look at. I guess I should have released that weeks ago...
07:20<@planetmaker>especially as my current focus is elsewhere
07:21<@planetmaker>btw, does your problem with the map upload persist, Terkhen ?
07:22<@planetmaker>(just curious)
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08:19<@Terkhen>planetmaker: yes
08:19<@Terkhen>I can't update two of my uploads, the other two work fine
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09:11<@Belugas>hello friday!
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>friday the 13th
09:12<@Belugas>who cares... it's a friday!
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>better than monday, worse than saturday
09:14<Prof_Frink>Belugas: *Finally*.
09:14<+glx>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>is that the friday song that everybody is talking about?
09:15<+glx>yup
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>never actually heard it
09:16<Markk>Don't listen to it.
09:16<Markk>Please.
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>my internets are too slow today for that anyway
09:17<@Terkhen>after reading what people says about it, I decided to not listen to it either
09:17<Markk>:)
09:17<@Belugas>and my work@work schedule denies me the time frame to do so as qwell...
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>you work too much ;)
09:26<@Belugas>i do, truely
09:26<@Belugas>but what to expect when you're good as me? ;)
09:40-!-compi [~compi@mail1.itout.de] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>"one third of USA's nuclear power stations fails security test"
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>"of course, all nuclear power stations are safe, NRC assures."
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>idiots.
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>more specifically: corrupt idiots.
09:53<@Terkhen>today I saw in the news that in the 80s they almost built a nuclear power station in the same place where the earthquake happened a few days ago
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>"well, a heavy earthquake would not likely hit the same place twice" :p
09:55<@Terkhen>they were planning on building the same model used for the reactor 1 of Fukushima
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's no surprise at all... there are only like 3 fundamentally different models
09:56<@Terkhen>"breaks on tsunamis", "breaks on earthquakes" and "breaks when it wants to"?
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, "hot water", "pressure water" and "breeder"
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09:59<@Terkhen>:P
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10:02<+glx>as long as they don't use tchernobyl technology
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10:02<@Terkhen>probably all models fit in the "breaks when you turn off security" category
10:03<@Terkhen>or was that finally proven as only a rumour?
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>when "security" means "water pump", then yes...
10:06<+glx>but when the fail comes from control rods it's another story
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10:31<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=946069#p946069 <-- that must be a bad joke...
10:33<@Terkhen>:D
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10:58*Belugas is having a blast adapting work application to Windows 7 system
10:58<@Belugas>bitch
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11:00<@peter1138>hm
11:09<+glx>7 is more compatible than vista
11:10<@peter1138>7 is probably the best windows yet
11:10<+glx>xp was not bad
11:10<@peter1138>*nod8
11:10<@peter1138>vista was crap :D
11:11<+glx>I skiped ME and vista :)
11:11<@Terkhen>only xp and 7 can be considered for that distinction :P
11:12<@Terkhen>vista was barely an OS for me, and don't get me started on ME
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11:13<devilsadvocate><peter1138> 7 is probably the best windows yet <- You know, its sad thats something that has to be said, and that a number of people would disagree
11:14<@peter1138>some people even like vista, yeah
11:15<devilsadvocate>oh, i didnt mean it that way
11:15<@Terkhen>I could understand someone preferring xp, but vista?
11:16<+glx>maybe they didn't know xp
11:16<devilsadvocate>i meant it in the way that 7 is the newest of the windows, the last one being over 3 years old, and is also consequently the most expensive, that one would expect it to be the defacto best
11:17<@peter1138>yeah, ME and vista are the reason it's not so clear cut :)
11:18*peter1138 has cubicgrid -root running, hehe
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11:18<@peter1138>xscreensavers in my root window? yes please
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11:24<@peter1138>ooh, hypnowheel :)
11:24<@Belugas>problem is the freaking scaling
11:25<@Belugas>it screws all our forms
11:25<@Belugas>plus the security is very problematic
11:25<@Belugas>something that once ran on current user account now runs on system
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11:25<@Belugas>and other joyfull stuff like that
11:26-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.165.202] has joined #openttd
11:26<@Belugas>and.. i deal on a daily basis with xp, vista and win 7. I by far prefer XP
11:27<@Belugas>but my prefered bands (apart Mogwai) are from the 80-90...
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11:33<+glx><@Belugas> something that once ran on current user account now runs on system <-- that's not normal
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11:44<ZirconiumX>hello all
11:44<ZirconiumX>@seen LordAro
11:44<@DorpsGek>ZirconiumX: LordAro was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 20 hours, 14 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <LordAro> :) all in good time
11:45<@Alberth>yes
11:46*ZirconiumX decides to make fun of LordAro's comment
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11:46<ZirconiumX>Will I see you again?
11:46<ZirconiumX><LordAro> :) all in good time
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11:51<@Belugas>glx: i guess it's the fact that we've programmed most of our stuff in XP, we've never moved anything on vista. So now, we have to adjust to the new schemed
11:52<@Belugas>basically, we have a service that monitors some apps
11:52<+glx>vista is worse on that point
11:52<@Belugas>one of the reasons we did not moved on vista. and xp was stilla available. but when xp was not anymore, welll.. we had to adpat
11:52<@Belugas>and here i am
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12:07*Alberth welcomes Belugas to this channel at this time
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12:22<@Belugas>ho... thanks :)
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12:22<@Belugas>i'm always there, i'm just... working and eating and swearing and watching ;)
12:26*ZirconiumX is appalled at Belugas' bad language
12:26<@Belugas>you are? So you know what quebecor's swearing sonds like?
12:27*ZirconiumX doesn't want to know
12:27<@Belugas>hehehe
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13:16*Eddi|zuHause never understood why americans ever make such fuss about "bad" language...
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>especially this bleeping on TV...
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13:21*Alberth never understood why German TV does not broadcast English movies in English either
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it occasionally was done, but the channels would have to purchase additional broadcast rights
13:23<+glx>audience would be lower too
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>especially for satellite broadcast, which is receivable in all of europe, this would be expensive
13:24<__ln__>south park uses bleeping in some ironic sense
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that's probably done in the german translation as well, but i haven't really followed south park
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i know there was an episode where they counted the number of "shit"s, but i don't remember if they used bleeping
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13:43*Belugas never understood why series are almost always in english on DVD, with subtitles (sometimes)
13:43<+glx>you're lucky
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13:44<+glx>here they are often french only
13:44<+glx>but it's better now
13:44<@Belugas>but but but... I WNAT THEM IN FRNECH!!!
13:44<@Belugas>hem...
13:44<@Belugas>see how bad i am in english?
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22446 /trunk/src/lang/ (english_US.txt finnish.txt serbian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: serbian - 2 changes by etran
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>:)
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>this would be way easier if the MAFIAA didn't force these region codes upon us
13:47<@Belugas>true, that
13:48<@Belugas>glx, the thing is, my wife does not understand english as well as i do. And there are some series where the actors are actually more mumbling than really speaking. So w both loose some dialogs
13:49<@Belugas>while when it's in french, even with the horrible french accent, we can still understand it all
13:49<@Belugas>note that the horrible french accent is most of the time 10 times beter then the quebec accent...
13:50<@Belugas>which feels like joe-from-the-deep-farms village kinda...
13:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22447 /branches/1.1/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
13:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Git revision detection would return too much when tags are involved (r22435)
13:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] When action14 specified different values for the palette, the values were OR-ed. Use the last set value instead (r22416)
13:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Network] Kicking yourself via remote console crashes the server [FS#4606] (r22414)
13:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Make sure the action2 ID of a generic feature callback is valid (r22409)
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13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22448 /branches/1.1/ (10 files in 4 dirs):
13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] When GRFs are disabled via Action E or due to GRM failure, also display an error in the GUI (r22444, r22443)
13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Do not popup fatal NewGRF error messages in the intro screen. The GRFs are not going to be activated there anyway and the GRF settings GUI will not display the errors either (r22442)
13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Catenary was drawn incorrectly next to level crossings with foundations (r22437)
13:57<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Apply railtype property 12 (station graphics) also to station groundsprites from action 1 (r22436)
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14:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22449 /branches/1.1/ (13 files in 5 dirs):
14:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
14:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Feature: [NewGRF] Allow to filter by town of the current industry when using industry variable 0x68 [FS#4591] (r22434)
14:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Change: Improve the speed of YAPF by tweaking hash tables size (r22351, r22350, r22348)
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14:32<foobar___>hi
14:33<@Terkhen>hi foobar___
14:34<foobar___>i'm unable to build a water tower anywhere (even in the city) in the sub-tropical climate, is that (known) bug? or can you confirm it? :)
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>you must build it on top of a house
14:35<@Terkhen>what error are you getting?
14:35<foobar___>ah, lol
14:35<foobar___>why this is not mentioned in the error message or wiki?
14:35<foobar___>it just says "it can be built only in the city"
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>aye, could use a better explanation
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>hm... updating kernel... can't possibly be a good idea...
14:37-!-perk11 [~perk11@broadband-77-37-203-211.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
14:38<@Terkhen>use arch, you will get used to updating kernels every random day :P
14:38<foobar___>Debian here :)
14:38<foobar___>sid of course
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14:43<@Belugas>what wold be the fun if the game woulsd tell you exactly what you did wrong and how to fix it??? forum swould be useless, wiki would be useless!
14:43<@Belugas>mmh... next step" Do you this wrong. do you want me to correct it for you?"
14:43<@Belugas>buahahahah!!!
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes, please, mister paperclip.
14:48-!-Chrill [Chrill@ip68-8-120-178.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit []
14:49<@Belugas>:D
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14:52<Eddi|zuHause>i hate how konqueror cannot be run after updating KDE but before restarting...
14:53-!-foobar___ [93210a9a@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
14:54<@Belugas>kwit
14:56<ZirconiumX>konqueror has been konquered
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15:32<Eddi|zuHause>if i'm not back in 10 minutes, start to worry.
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>it lives...
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>that must be a first...
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>oh... and forgot recompiling the task bar... of course...
15:39-!-KritiK [~Maxim@89.178.94.123] has joined #openttd
15:40<@Terkhen>welcome back to the living
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16:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22450 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix [FS#4610]: Don't "log" the NewGRFs in the screenshot when in the menu
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>what if i load a menu with newgrfs?
16:09<Rubidium>then you're screwed anyways
16:09<Rubidium>as as far as I'm aware it won't actually load the NewGRFs properly
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually tried that...
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16:14<frosch123>night
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm... something's very wrong in konqueror...
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i just hit "submit" on a post, and told me there was a new post with the exact content i just submitted
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>like, it sends every request twice
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>because "view first unread post" doesn't work either
16:26-!-melwil [melwil@m174g.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #openttd
16:27<melwil>hey, my friend is having a problem in 1.1, he can't build two way block signals!
16:27<melwil>is that a common issue? -.-
16:27<@Alberth>no
16:27<@Terkhen>what is he trying and what problem is he getting?
16:28<@Alberth>convert button not depressed?
16:28<melwil>exactly what it sounds like, he has a piece of rail, and when placing signals on it, he does not get the two way signal
16:28<@Alberth>what happens instead?
16:28<@Alberth>error message perhaps?
16:28<melwil>he get one way or the other
16:28<melwil>but never both
16:28<@Terkhen>are they really block signals?
16:29<melwil>http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Two-way_signals <-
16:29<melwil>this is unobtainable for him
16:29<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Signal_Interface
16:29<@Terkhen>that does not answer our questions :P
16:29<@Alberth>other signals work?
16:29<melwil>yes
16:30<@Alberth>any NewGRFs loaded?
16:30<melwil>afaik it's a clean install of 1.1, so no
16:30<melwil>and signal gui is enabled
16:30-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1BCF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:31<@Alberth>signal gui has nothing to do with it afaik
16:31<melwil>you linked it, so I just asked =)
16:32<@Alberth>just making sure we agree on what a block signal is, and where you can find it.
16:32<melwil>well, if it's a block or path signal isn't the issue, it's the two way lights that don't work
16:32<@Alberth>do you have a picture of the signal he gets?
16:33-!-SigHunter [~sighunter@pD955D10F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
16:33<@Alberth>path signals do not exist in two-way variant
16:33<melwil>that's a good point
16:33<melwil>I've not playedm uch since their implementation, sec
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16:34<melwil>yeah, that did it =)
16:34<@Alberth>ok :)
16:34<melwil>thanks, sorry for not catching onto the "are they really block signals" question before now ;)
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16:34<SigHunter>is there a best practice to convert from rail to monorail? some way that will make it less time-consuming than doing it manually? (sell each train + create new one with same directions)
16:36<@Alberth>besides using 'clone train' I wouldn't know
16:36<SigHunter>well clone train doesnt work
16:36<SigHunter>i cant clone a train to monorail depot that is normal rail
16:36<@Alberth>only not with the first one :)
16:36<@planetmaker>but build one and clone orders
16:36<TWerkhoven>auto-replace engines with universal engines
16:36<@Terkhen>IIRC there is a universal track NewGRF that should help with this issue, but I never tried it
16:36<@Alberth>planetmaker: good point :)
16:37<TWerkhoven>once they are all changed, convert all track then autorplace to proper engines + carriages?
16:37<@Alberth>SigHunter: you can also build new routes instead of upgrading existing ones
16:37<@Terkhen>I don't play games long enough to reach monorail / maglev anymore
16:38*Alberth also doesn't play that long
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16:39<@Terkhen>my longest game in a while was with yacd, and I stopped when I realized that if I connected the last big town remaining my network would collapse
16:39<@Alberth>I have yet to make a positive income with yacd :)
16:40<@Terkhen>hmm... I found it relatively easy with passengers
16:40<@Alberth>so far, I just go bankrupt very slowly :)
16:40<@Terkhen>in my last game I tried industries and I failed horribly
16:41<SigHunter>hmm
16:41<@Terkhen>I still find wrong that coal wants to cross the complete country instead of going to the nearest power plant
16:42<@Alberth>my major puzzle is where to start
16:42<@Alberth>cargo wants to go in so many different directions
16:42<@Alberth>passengers too btw, but perhaps I should try that some more
16:43*planetmaker plays that long. But I don't upgrade anyway
16:43<@Alberth>play with breakdowns enabled :p
16:44<@planetmaker>how would that change that?
16:44<@Terkhen>Alberth: I choose two big towns and connect them
16:44<@Terkhen>the local traffic + the traffic between them is usually enough to start getting a profit
16:44<@Alberth>then reliability becomes a factor in picking engines, and keeping up-to-date
16:44<@Terkhen>but I still failed the first two times :P
16:45<@Alberth>I tried the tropical climate, but that is hopeless, so many very small towns :p
16:45<@planetmaker>hm... yes. But still. I like rail more. If monorail or maglev... I usually give them separate networks. Or only upgrade to maglev single routes.
16:45<@planetmaker>Unless I build maglev in the first place :-P
16:45<@Terkhen>well, I was cheating... I was playing a scenario :P
16:45<SigHunter>i usually skip monorail because when im done converting, monorail is out ;/
16:46<SigHunter>but thought i'd ask this time, maybe theres a golden way to do it like autoconverting to different trains
16:46<@Alberth>If I reach monorail/maglev, I also tend to build new routes
16:46-!-Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
16:48<@Alberth>SigHunter: no, and afaik that's intentional. Otherwise the game gets very boring
16:48<@Alberth>ie you can upgrade by a few clicks then
16:49<SigHunter>well..
16:49<SigHunter>not boring for me, its a large map, (2kx2k), i still have many industries to connect
16:50<SigHunter>well, ill continue doing it the way i did
16:50<@Alberth>I always get lost on such large maps
16:50<@Alberth>how is 2kx2k different from eg 1kx1k ?
16:50<SigHunter>well the savegames are 4 times as big ;D
16:51<@Alberth>is it any different than just making all routes longer and thus more profitable?
16:51<SigHunter>well, yes, thats mostly the point
16:52<SigHunter>but i like the fact to have something to discover
16:52<SigHunter>that i havent seen yet
16:52<SigHunter>completely new ground to make accessible
16:52<@Alberth>and 1kx1k is too small?
16:52<SigHunter>no not too small
16:52<SigHunter>its fine too
16:53<@Alberth>sorry, I am just wondering why you'd want to play 2kx2k
16:53<SigHunter>mostly because i can
16:53<@Alberth>I have not found a good reason so far
16:53<SigHunter>any reason not to?
16:54<@Alberth>mostly because I won't be able to cover a large part of the map by a long shot.
16:55<@Alberth>there are plenty of save games of immense maps, with just a few things connected.
16:55<SigHunter>well most times im playing coop with a friend, starting in 1934, playing till 2070
16:55<SigHunter>so enough time to connect all stuff
16:55<SigHunter>with 2 hands working, makes building faster
16:55<@Alberth>yeah :)
16:55<SigHunter>quite fun
16:56<SigHunter>maybe i let him do the converting
16:56<@Alberth>that's why there is MP :)
16:57<@Alberth>140 years is enough to cover a whole 2kx2k map with 2 people?
16:57<SigHunter>well, depends
16:57<SigHunter>not everything of course
16:57<@planetmaker>Alberth: I don't think so
16:57<SigHunter>mostly we just do the cool stuff
16:57<@planetmaker>We (coop) build on 512^2 maps for centuries...
16:57<SigHunter>farm -> factory -> goods
16:58<SigHunter>passengers and wood
16:58<@Alberth>planetmaker: but you lay lots of track
16:58<@planetmaker>yes, we do
16:59<@Alberth>2kx2k maps are mostly empty, long straight tracks across the map
16:59<SigHunter>is there a way to modify buildingcosts / running costs on a progressed savegame?
16:59<SigHunter>set everything to low and that sucks now
16:59<@Alberth>you'd have to start a new game
16:59<SigHunter>;/
16:59-!-andythenorth [~Andy@213.99.112.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd
17:00<@Alberth>but you have an excuse to play more openttd, how can that be bad? :p
17:00<@Alberth>hai andy
17:00<SigHunter>not bad at all ;>
17:00<andythenorth>hello
17:00<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
17:01*andythenorth thinks he found a YACD bug
17:01<andythenorth>when a link was temporarily broken, all the cargo waiting at an intermediate station....vanished
17:02<andythenorth>over 1,000t of it
17:02<Ruudjah>I am experimenting with breakdowns and multiple tracks for one direction - in the hopes to make more efficient tracks
17:02<@Alberth>it got stolen :)
17:03<Ruudjah>So I make switches between tracks, so trains can move to another track when a train is jamming a track
17:03<Ruudjah>but it causes some weird behaviour, I wonder if there are solutions for
17:04<Ruudjah>e.g. when 2 tracks have 2 trains waiting before a switch
17:04<Ruudjah>one train sometimes takes the other track
17:04-!-NOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-51-188.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
17:04<Ruudjah>then after that, the other track is allowed a train. But that train wants to go on the other track _also_
17:05<Ruudjah>instead of staying on its own track
17:06<Ruudjah>the train probably chooses the other track because its own track has a train on it while the other track is empty
17:06<Ruudjah>penalty signals wont help
17:06<@Alberth>yeah, trains avoid each other
17:06<@Alberth>which is good for break downs :)
17:07<Ruudjah>sometimes, but sometimes not
17:07<@Alberth>I tend to have long stretches of double track between such crossings
17:08<@Alberth>ie not so many crossings
17:08*Terkhen has yet to build a serious junction
17:08*andythenorth only builds flippant and amusing junctions :P
17:09-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
17:09<@Terkhen>mine are quite stupid :P
17:09<andythenorth>they're great for parties, but not much good when real work needs doing
17:09<@Terkhen>heh :D
17:09<Ruudjah>Currently I have them of length equalling about 1,5-2x train size
17:09*Alberth just builds whatever fits in the terrain
17:09<SigHunter>is there a way to change destinations for all trains in a group?
17:09<andythenorth>the terrain is mutable :P
17:09<@Terkhen>SigHunter: if they share orders yes
17:09<andythenorth>my browser is apparently mutable
17:09<andythenorth>it just changed from 'working' to 'crashed'
17:09<SigHunter>what does sharing orders mean? they all have the same orders, is that enough?
17:10<andythenorth>changing orders for one will also change orders for all sharing
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>shared orders also automatically change for all trains if you change one
17:10<Ruudjah>Will automatic orders be able to be disabled anytime?
17:10-!-DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-33-177.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:10<SigHunter>kk ill try
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>you make shared orders with ctrl+goto
17:11<Ruudjah>various times I had some problems with them
17:11<Ruudjah>few times even creating hundreds of orders in the list
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: unlikely, but some of the problems should be fixed
17:11*andythenorth suggests renaming 'automatic orders'
17:11<andythenorth>a change of name will fix 50% of players issues
17:11<andythenorth>call them 'routing help' or something
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: if you still have problems with current trunk, please report them
17:12<@Alberth>Ruudjah: 10 train lengths or so
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17:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: how to call them?
17:12<@planetmaker>implicit orders?
17:12<andythenorth>'places I've visited' :P
17:12<andythenorth>I dunno
17:12*planetmaker likes implicit over automatic
17:13<Ruudjah>http://imgur.com/w0SxF
17:13<@Alberth>Ruudjah: if trains just go from A to B, there is little need for them to switch tracks constantly I think
17:14<@planetmaker>that's not current trunk, is it Ruudjah ?
17:14<Ruudjah>dunno
17:14<Ruudjah>it's 1.1.0
17:14<Ruudjah>dont know if there have been changes between trunk and 1.1.0
17:14<@Alberth>ancient :p
17:14<@planetmaker>:-P
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: i said "current trunk" for a reason... *headbang*
17:14<@planetmaker>there have been. or they'd be the same ;-)
17:15<andythenorth>what happened to the recent daylength patch?
17:15<@Alberth>you can try a recent nightly to test whether they are still a problem
17:15<andythenorth>the one that screwed with the calendar?
17:15<Ruudjah>I ddnt save the game, so can't repro that screenie
17:15<Ruudjah>I should have
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>ask Wolf01
17:15<andythenorth>my game goes by way too fast
17:16<Ruudjah>in another matter, is it possible to have trains leaving station when another one comes in?
17:16<@Alberth>not on that condition afaik
17:16<@planetmaker>Ruudjah: yes. one-track stations ;-)
17:16<@Alberth>:)
17:17<Ruudjah>not a good solution for me
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17:17<@planetmaker>:-)
17:17<Ruudjah>cause then trains need to wait unloading before the other one has left
17:18<Ruudjah>I want to use it for stations where oil can be dropped+loaded
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17:18<Ruudjah>full train comes in, drops, starts loading, other train leaves
17:19<Ruudjah>currently solve it by trains to wait for 15 days
17:19<Ruudjah>works, but not optimal solution
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: timetables
17:19<andythenorth>timetables are not good enough :P
17:19*andythenorth has decided this
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>you are right
17:19*andythenorth is getting the hang of YACD now
17:20*andythenorth thinks mainline trains running between large 'yard' stations does work
17:20<@Terkhen>I still don't know how to make timetables useful in a game
17:20<andythenorth>Terkhen: well I have to use them with YACD because full load == fail
17:20<@Terkhen>I just let buses running without full load orders :P
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: buy a tram, make one round trip setting up the timetable, edit end station wait time +5 days, buy more trams, set the start date 5 days apart
17:21<andythenorth>YACD is very interesting with freight once you have enough network nodes connected
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>it's a little inconvenient, but it does work
17:21<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: sounds useful... but quite tedious
17:21<@Terkhen>I did not know that you could change the start date
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>without timetables, trams tend to bunch up
17:21<andythenorth>with YACD you can run very large freight trains which tend to get at least partial loads both ways
17:22<andythenorth>it's a little unrealistic :P
17:22<andythenorth>I have wood going from A to B and B to A
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: the station start date is kind of the most minimalistic part of the timetable patches that actually got into trunk :p
17:22*andythenorth has ideas for more exciting stuff
17:23<@Terkhen>andythenorth: that's my biggest problem with YACD and cargos
17:23<andythenorth>Terkhen: I've decided not to worry about it
17:23<andythenorth>clearly some wood is pine and some is oak or something
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>i only had one of each industry, so i didn't get that luxury
17:23<@Terkhen>luxury coal? :P
17:24<andythenorth>I haven't explored conditional orders much, they're a headache...
17:24<andythenorth>...but can they look ahead at cargo waiting at next station?
17:24<@Terkhen>anyways, the biggest problem is that I don't know how to build a network that deals with yacd cargos
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: there are different types of coal
17:24<@Terkhen>and power plants require a mixture of them?
17:24<andythenorth>what I want is an order that says 'wait here until next station has x amount waiting OR load amount is now x'
17:24<SigHunter>good night
17:24<@Terkhen>good night SigHunter
17:24<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I don't think they can check the next station
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: usually they are refitted for one or the other
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17:25<andythenorth>I had a bonkers idea
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's "brown" coal which has lower burn value, and "black" coal which has higher burn value.
17:25<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: that's the problem I face; I usually start with coal, but with YACD I have to bring it to three different locations
17:25<andythenorth>I don't know if my idea can be implemented, but anyway...
17:26<andythenorth>each train has a max length, probably dictated by shortest station in orders
17:26<andythenorth>each train has a set of power (US term) allocated, i.e. n engine units
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>and each coal type has different by-mixtures like sulphur
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>which the plant has to be refitted to handle
17:27<andythenorth>at each station, the wagon consist is assembled on demand by TTD according to some rules - amount of each cargo waiting, payment rate for cargo etc
17:27<andythenorth>the player has to maintain an overall 'pool' of each wagon type, but this could also be automated
17:27<@planetmaker>why would he have to maintain that? Just buy a frigging new wagon for each trip
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: great, where is your patch? :p
17:28<@planetmaker>fire and forget weapons exist. why not wagons?
17:28<andythenorth>planetmaker: automated...
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the chinese did that with containers
17:28<andythenorth>could just be a billing item
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>"why the hell would we ship back empty containers to china if it's cheaper to build new ones?"
17:28<@planetmaker>he
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>china isn't that big on imports, you know :p
17:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: where is my patch?
17:29<andythenorth>I can't see it
17:30<andythenorth>is it over there?
17:30<andythenorth>is it under there?
17:30<andythenorth>I can't see my patch
17:30<andythenorth>(game I play with my child :P )
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>great that it works on your child :p
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17:43<Ruudjah>Is there an advantage of non-drivethrough truck/bus stops over drivethrough ones?
17:43<Ruudjah>I never used them since like 0.5 or 0.6
17:43<melwil>non-drivthrough doens't block traffic
17:44<Ruudjah>for <3 waiting truvcks/buses, that is
17:44<melwil>if you have other routes that are supposed to go through, a loading bus standing on a drive through will block all other traffic
17:44<melwil>afaik
17:45<andythenorth>non-drivethrough has higher capacity per tile
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: yes, vehicles will not get in each others way when one is finished loading and the other is not
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause>and they don't need a separate turn-around place
17:47<Ruudjah>andythenorth non-drivethrough has higher capacity per tile < No! no.
17:47<Ruudjah>drivethrough beats nondrivethrough by landslide
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>a drivethrough can service 4 vehicles if used in both directions
17:47<Ruudjah>drivethrough also dont need turnaround
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: then it needs separate entrance and exit roads
17:48<Ruudjah>drivethrough in non-drivethrough config has higher cpacity, does not block
17:48<Rubidium>non dtrs balances better unload load
17:48<Ruudjah>So those advantages arent advantages
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17:48<Ruudjah>nope
17:48<Rubidium>s/unload/under/
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: yes, that does block
17:49<Ruudjah>So.... there are no advantages of ndt
17:49<Ruudjah>except when turning around at end of road is disabled
17:49<Rubidium>there are
17:49<Ruudjah>which?
17:50<Rubidium>full loading one cargo can block loading of others
17:50<Rubidium>in a drive through stop, but can't in non drive through
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>unless you fill all bays with loading vehicles :)
17:51<Ruudjah>A dt in ndt config behaves the same, but better as ndt
17:51<Rubidium>nope
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: no, it does not. a dtrs will have two vehicles behind each other, and the second one can't overtake
17:51<Ruudjah>since no turning around
17:51<Ruudjah>true
17:51<Ruudjah>but still - the capcity is not higher
17:52<Ruudjah>since ndt force trucks to turn around
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>nobody said that
17:52<Ruudjah>yes
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17:52<Ruudjah>andy did
17:52<Ruudjah>:P
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, he has no clue :p
17:52<Rubidium>with 4 vehicles you can completely block 4 drive through stops in 'ndt' config by full loading, whereas you need 8 when using only ndt
17:53<Rubidium>maximum capacity of dt might be better, but there are certainly many cases where a ndt performs better
17:54<Rubidium>*especially* with full loading multiple cargos at the same station
17:54<Ruudjah>ok, so for dual/multicargo setups it might be
17:55<Rubidium>or when full loading passengers when cargo has a destination
17:55<Ruudjah>ok, so there are small advantages in corner cases
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>not "corner cases", "usage scenarios"
17:56<Ruudjah>Rubidium: whats the diff in max capacity and performance?
17:57<Ruudjah>afaiac they are the same
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: actually, dtrs heavily benefit from quantum effects :p
17:57<Ruudjah>corner case usage scenario's
17:58<Ruudjah>:P
17:58<Rubidium>Ruudjah: capacity is what it can, in theory, handle
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>Ruudjah: if you only use coop-style networks, you'll never see certain scenarios. that doesn't make them "corner case"
17:58<Rubidium>whereas performance is the amount you're using it
17:59<Rubidium>e.g. capacity of a coal wagon is 25t, but on average you're using ~12t due to it travelling empty back to the loading station
17:59<Ruudjah>well
17:59<Rubidium>likewise a dtrs has a capacity of 4 loading half-tile vehicles, but it won't be loading 4 all the time
18:00<Ruudjah>Eddi|zuHause: I understand, but above scenario needs quite some prereqs to come into existence. That makes it pretty cornercase
18:00<Rubidium>actually, in case of full load it'll be half empty quite often
18:01<Ruudjah>I have seen lots of ottd games, never saw that secnario
18:01<Rubidium>really, is it such a corner case for using one station for loading grain and livestock?
18:02<Ruudjah>ndts wont solve the problem well there
18:02<Rubidium>then I've got the feeling you're not looking hard enough
18:02<Ruudjah>admitted, they solve it better then one dt
18:03<Ruudjah>but for most players enough problem to make 2 dts, put depot behind and use gotodepot orders
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18:03<Ruudjah>to not have two grain loading while livestock is waiting
18:03<andythenorth>if you want to use articulated road vehicles it's a moot point anyway :P
18:03<Ruudjah>except when you have 2 of each cargo
18:04<Ruudjah>"articulated"?
18:04<andythenorth>trucks with trailers etc
18:04<Ruudjah>they cant use ndts?
18:05<andythenorth>no
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>the state machine can't handle them
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18:16<andythenorth>bed time
18:16<andythenorth>good night
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18:43<@Terkhen>good night
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21:56<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat May 14 00:00:23 2011