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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-14

---Logopened Sat May 14 00:00:23 2011
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03:11<@Terkhen>good morning
03:15<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
03:21-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
03:21-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:24<ChoHag>Given a Station pointer, [how] could I tell that it's an oil rig?
03:24<ChoHag>s/that/whether/
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03:30<@Alberth>Don't know, it may be possible, but I'd do that through the industries
03:30<@Alberth>s/do that/find oilrigs/
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03:32<@Alberth>why do you want to know?
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03:32<ChoHag>I mean in the code.
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03:34<@Alberth>yeah, but why is that info important?
03:34<@Alberth>a station knows what it provides and accepts
03:35<@Alberth>it does not matter whether it is an oil rig, it seems to me
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03:35<ChoHag>I want to make them deliver all their cargo to their attached station, regardless of rating.
03:36<ChoHag>I don't know what effect that'll have on multiple companies using one rig, I'll see what happens, but nothing else seems logical.
03:36<andythenorth>morningks
03:36<ChoHag>Why would a rig send its oil anywhere but its own built-in station?
03:37<@Alberth>if you build another station close enough, the oil goes there too
03:37<@Alberth>morning andy
03:37<ChoHag>Yes, but oil rigs are by definition in the middle of the sea.
03:37<@Alberth>I would expect the rating functionality in the industry production code
03:37*Alberth has plenty of money to make land at arbitrary places :p
03:38<ChoHag>Even if in real life a train station was build right near an oil rig after the insanely high expense of building an island, the rig wouldn't deliver there. That would just be weird when it has a docking port Right There.
03:39<@Alberth>OpenTTD does not care about real life
03:40<@Alberth>(luckily)
03:40<ChoHag>I noticed that when TT first came out.
03:40<ChoHag>Lots of things were comical even them.
03:40<ChoHag>then
03:42<@Alberth>Not caring about real world gives freedom to leave out the boring parts, and simplify things. However, it also means that "in real life it is done in this way too" is no argument to add something to the game.
03:42<@Alberth>(or forbid something, for that matter)
03:43<ChoHag>Well what I'm fiddling with is only a problem because of the way the game works (ie. oil rigs can apparently never reach 100% rating).
03:43<ChoHag>Then I got to thinking that the rating system, while fine, makes no sense for oil rigs
03:43<ChoHag>So for my next code dive I am finding out stuff about stations and oil rigs, with the vague purpose of working on that.
03:44<ChoHag>Mostly to increase familiarity with the code, but also hopefully fix something I find illogical.
03:44<@Alberth>oil rig is an industry, so that's where you want to change things
03:45<@Alberth>in a sense it does not matter where the oil flows to from the industry point of view
03:45<andythenorth>have fun with industry code :P
03:45<andythenorth>industry code is one of the more spaghetti-laden areas I've explored
03:45<@Terkhen>I don't remember any limitation in that sense for the oil rig
03:45<ChoHag>Actually it seems to by in station_cmd.c - MoveGoodsToStation
03:46<@Terkhen>probably it is caused because they rely in ships, which are slow
03:46<ChoHag>Ignore spelling mistakes. It's early.
03:46<@Alberth>we always do :)
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>ChoHag: if you want to mess with station rating specific to oil rigs, what do you intend to do when one builds a station next to the oil rig?
03:49<ChoHag>Ignore it. Don't do that, it's silly.
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>and why is not reaching 100% a problem?
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>and why is it more serious problem with oil rigs than any other industry?
03:50<ChoHag>Actually I've no idea, I expect the rig's own station would effectively have a 100% rating all the time, whatever that means for other stations is what will happen.
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>and you can change the station rating via newgrf
03:51<ChoHag>Because I recently built a fleet of oil tankers, so they're my latest grief.
03:51<Eddi|zuHause>ChoHag: if oil rig has a 100% rating, cargo would simply pile up even if nobody is transporting it (any more)
03:52<ChoHag>And when I read up on game mechanics, the way it worked made little sense.
03:52<@peter1138>use helicopters :D
03:52<ChoHag>Oil rigs would by definition send all their cargo to their attached station.
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>gtg. but you likely are doing The Wrong Thing (tm)
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03:52<@Alberth>station ratings are not universally agreed as 'fine' :p
03:52<ChoHag>Probably, but got to start somewhere.
03:52*andythenorth is troubled by station ratings
03:53*peter1138 chokes to death
03:53*andythenorth waves
03:53*Alberth rescues peter1138 just in time
03:53<@peter1138>too late, the dog farted :(
03:53<@peter1138>oohh
03:53*peter1138 returns as as zombie?
03:53*andythenorth sends a registered first aider
03:53<ChoHag>Maybe when I've looked into this I'll have a better idea of the ways in which station ratings suck.
03:53<andythenorth>the concept is fine
03:54<andythenorth>I'm not sure how you'd allocate cargo between multiple stations without them
03:54<ChoHag>I have a vague idea about station capacities, too.
03:54<andythenorth>but the calculation is based on some game goals from 1994 which might not be valid
03:54<ChoHag>In-line bus stations with 2000+ passengers makes no sense.
03:54<ChoHag>But that's for later.
03:56<andythenorth>"Max speed of last vehicle entering station"
03:56<andythenorth>pah
03:56<ChoHag>Yeah that's what got me to find the problem.
03:56<andythenorth>"Statue in town of station"
03:56<ChoHag>The fastest non-passenger ship is 25mph, which means an instant negative rating for the fastest, newest ship.
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03:57<@Terkhen>ships have a bonus to their ratings IIRC
03:57<andythenorth>why can't I just pay for permanent advertising?
03:57<andythenorth>instead of going round each town every few months?
03:58<andythenorth>Terkhen: far as I understand, the bonus is not connected to speed, just days since last pickup
03:58<andythenorth>but the rating system means you should always have a vehicle waiting, far as I can see
04:00*andythenorth ponders making a test grf for station ratings
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04:00<ChoHag>Terkhen: Only in terms of how long since cargo was picked up.
04:01<ChoHag>The fastest ship still reduces the rating.
04:02<@Terkhen>having a slow vehicle does not reduce the rating, it just does not give a high bonus (or a bonus at all)
04:02<@Terkhen>this can be fixed via callbacks anyways
04:02<ChoHag>Same difference.
04:02<ChoHag>The point is you can have the fastes, newest, shiniest oil tanker, and nobody cares.
04:02<@Terkhen>so it should not be fixed via code
04:03<andythenorth>hmm
04:03<andythenorth>http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=Callbacks#Custom_station_rating_calculation_145_
04:03<andythenorth>"Currently, you can only use variables 10 and 18 for your decision, since neither vehicle nor station variables are available for a cargo callback. As soon as the architecture of TTDPatch allows this, the callback will be given access to the station and the last vehicle that entered."
04:03<andythenorth>:(
04:04<ChoHag>With the reported speed doubled, my maxed out oil rig now has an ~ 80-85 rating and is actually capable of growing.
04:04<@Terkhen>andythenorth: that does not sound very promising :)
04:04<ChoHag>Before with new ships, enough of them to be constantly present to load delivering to all destinations the rig wants to go, the delivered cargo was still under 67% and the rig was shrinking.
04:05<@Terkhen>andythenorth: you can still get some stuff, such as the type and the speed of the last vehicle
04:05<ChoHag>Maybe this is only apparent in yacd, where the cargo must be divided up.
04:05<@Terkhen>or the cargo waiting at the station
04:05<andythenorth>Terkhen: I think it might be worth trying
04:06<andythenorth>I can't do much on it today, but I want to have a look at this
04:06<@Terkhen>I have custom ratings on my todo list for opengfx+ industries too
04:06<@Terkhen>I was thinking on three settings for the different cargos (the same separations that yacd does)
04:07<@Terkhen>but I don't know which custom ratings options there should be
04:07<andythenorth>I want to tie them to FIRS economies, along with payment rates
04:07<@Terkhen>oh, that makes sense
04:07<andythenorth>so in one economy coal might favour fast transportation, and in another slow
04:08<@Terkhen>there is a callback for custom payment too IIRC
04:08<andythenorth>yes, although I've never figured out a use for that yet
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04:09<@Terkhen>yes, unless you find that you need something special for one of the economies the existing three parameters should be enough
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04:20<andythenorth>wrt cb 39, the only uses I can think of right now are: - check for certain special vehicles / properties of vehicles in consist (not currently possible)
04:20<@planetmaker>hm, batch-saving only one layer of a gimp image is not what I want :D
04:20<andythenorth>- check for certain special tiles of station
04:20<@Terkhen>that would be interesting, yes
04:21<andythenorth>so e.g. if the station has a post office there is a better profit
04:21<andythenorth>railroad tycoon does that, it's fun, but ultimately doesn't add a lot to gameplay
04:21<@planetmaker>fun is enough
04:21<@Terkhen>planetmaker: are you trying gimp batch scripts? does it looks promising?
04:22<@planetmaker>I'm trying that, yes. I think it's feasible and might be a good thing
04:22<@Terkhen>good :)
04:22<@planetmaker>but it will require each xcf to be accompanied with a special script as far as I see it
04:22<@Terkhen>for opengfx+ road vehicles it would mean changing from lots of pngs to a few xcf files
04:22<@planetmaker>But well... that's code :-)
04:22<@planetmaker>yep, not only there
04:23<@Terkhen>yes... that's one of the cons IMO
04:23<@Terkhen>but I would have preferred to do everything with gimp and code how pngs are generated than actually creating all of them by hand
04:23<@planetmaker>I don't think it's really a 'con'
04:23<@planetmaker>those scripts would basically define which layers need to be visible to create <whatever> image
04:23<@planetmaker>that's more / additional info which currently is lost
04:24<@Terkhen>learning a new language is always something to consider :)
04:24<@Terkhen>could we make a generic script and pass to them which layers we want for each png somehow?
04:24<@planetmaker>Probably feasible. But I'm not there yet
04:24<@Terkhen>errr, s/them/it/, I need my coffee, brb
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04:32<Wolf01>hello
04:32<Markk>Hai
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04:36<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01 and Markk
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04:36<@Terkhen>planetmaker: that would be awesome :)
04:38<@planetmaker>ideally we'd have a file with lines like
04:38<@planetmaker>png-file source-file layer1, layer2, ...
04:38<@planetmaker>for each png file one such line
04:41<@Terkhen>it would be simple to modify and extend them then
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05:11<SliGo>hi
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05:11<@Alberth>hi
05:11<@Terkhen>hi SliGo
05:15<SliGo>what a nice chat room it is
05:15<@Alberth>nice and quiet :)
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05:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r22451 /trunk/src/terraform_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Test for bridges and tunnels during the first pass only while terraforming (HackaLittleBit)
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05:39<@Alberth>too quiet perhaps :)
05:39<@Terkhen>quiet == boring
05:40<@Terkhen>this chat room has been surprisingly drama free lately :P
05:41<@SmatZ>hockeeeeeey
05:41<@SmatZ>maybe pe
05:42<@SmatZ>ople are watching hockey instead of chatting and playing openttd
05:43*Terkhen suspects that playing hockey with his code would be more interesting than completing it
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06:08<andythenorth>quiet does == boring
06:09*andythenorth goes shopping
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06:37<heffer>today i wondered if Rollercoaster Tycoon is based off the same engine as TTD?
06:44<frosch123>yes
06:45<frosch123>take a look at cs' page
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06:53-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association @#openttdcoop.dev #wwottdgd #openttd @#tycoon.de @#openttdcoop
06:59<@Alberth>at least RCT1 and RCT2
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07:49<frosch123>hmm... there is still no released station newgrf with custom foundations, right?
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08:14<andythenorth>we could add them in CHIPS?
08:20<ChoHag>How do you use a town names grf?
08:20<ChoHag>It's in the list...
08:21<@Terkhen>you add it to your newgrf list and then select the town names you want to use in options
08:21<ChoHag>It's not showing up.
08:22<@Alberth>where
08:22<ChoHag>In game options, town names dropdown.
08:22<ChoHag>Oh now it is.
08:22<ChoHag>I clicked apply extra hard.
08:22<@Alberth>:)
08:23<ChoHag>Bah!
08:23<ChoHag>Now everything's called '?????' or some variation thereof.
08:23<@Terkhen>you selected a town names grf that requires a unicode font
08:23<ChoHag>Are there font grfs?
08:24<@Terkhen>no, you have to set the font you want to use in openttd.cfg
08:25<@Terkhen>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=50479 <--- you could also try this patch
08:25<ChoHag>I'll check that out later.
08:25<ChoHag>Right now I need to get SWMBO hooked before she gets bored and goes away.
08:36<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22452 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_spritegroup.h newgrf_station.cpp): -Fix (r18708): Zero register 0x100 as specified before resolving custom station foundations.
08:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22453 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_station.cpp newgrf_station.h station_cmd.cpp): -Feature(ette): Implement variable 18 for custom station foundations.
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08:39<SliGo>:
08:43<@Alberth>welcome back
08:44<SliGo>yeah thanks
08:45<SliGo>so you are from croatia aren't you?
08:45<@Alberth>not that I am aware of :)
08:45<SliGo>take a look around
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09:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22454 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_station.cpp newgrf_station.h station_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: Deduplicate GetCustomStationGroundRelocation() into GetCustomStationRelocation() and only call it if actually needed.
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10:55<+michi_cc>Hmm, rain mixed with hail, interesting...
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11:08<andythenorth>michi_cc: think I might have a cargo dist bug...
11:09<andythenorth>cargo disappearing at stations if a link is broken
11:09<andythenorth>known issue?
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11:12<+michi_cc>Known feature more like for now as I'm not sure what to do instead that can't be abused somehow.
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11:16<andythenorth>what's the reason for it?
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12:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22455 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Fix (r22286): x != y
12:02<frosch123>you should build more stations in NW-SE direction!
12:03<frosch123>hmm, does not even matter, you should generally build more stations
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12:33<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Simply keeping them forever is no option, and expiring them after a longer wait means iterating all the cargo packets all the time. And converting them to unrouted packets can be used for cheating. (Don't wanna transport coal over the whole map? Just make an alibi link, wait for cargo, delete the link and transport to somehwere nearer.9
12:34<andythenorth>ok
12:34<andythenorth>so a crashed vehicle would cause all en-route cargo to be lost (assuming not replaced quickly)
12:45<andythenorth>and assuming it's the only link somewhere in the chain
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13:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22456 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Codechange: Derive NewGRFSpriteLayout from DrawTileSprites for spritelayouts allocated on the heap, and make use of constructors and destructors.
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13:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22457 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Make the NewGRFSpriteLayout a direct member of TileLayoutSpriteGroup instead of allocating it separately.
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22458 /trunk/src/lang/ (lithuanian.txt swedish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 10 changes by Fretta
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 1 changes by Ledel
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14:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r22459 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: Typo fixes and doxygen markup improvements.
14:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r22460 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp group.h openttd.h station_cmd.cpp): -Doc: Semantic documentation fixes, and doxygen additions (partly by planetmaker).
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>oh... it's song contest again...
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15:59<__ln__>france will win
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>france has an interesting song, but i kinda doubt that it'll generate a lot of votes
16:21<__ln__>lena's song was also interesting, but not the winner type of song, i'm afraid
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>i think last year there was quite some hype that wasn't really due to the song...
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>someone should tell britain that boy bands was in the 90's
16:26*__ln__ voted for Lena last year
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>i never actually voted...
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16:30<__ln__>there were 3 other finns and 4 germans at my place watching the contest last year, so it was a nice experience to have germany actually win that time
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>i never was a fan of the idea to send the same person again...
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>and the song is rather of the kind that you need to hear multiple times to like it
16:41-!-Intexon [~Intexon@blk-222-147-135.eastlink.ca] has joined #openttd
16:49<__ln__>ukraine wasn't bad either
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>"Japanese steal 604 million yen (~5 mio €) in cash, carrying them away in 70 bags"
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really have a favourite song this year
17:22<__ln__>are base jumps legal in germany?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anyone forbids it...
17:29<Sacro>*coughs* tactical voting
17:29<@peter1138>it aint AV...
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: of course it's illegal to access buildings without permission
17:30<ChoHag>Why do I have (in yacd) passangers at one station trying to transfer at another station on their way to the station they started at?
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: and "air traffic" above a certain height must be registered
17:33<ChoHag>http://imagebin.org/153328
17:34<ChoHag>Am I just misreading it?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>ChoHag: "via" is: "the train stops at this station next", and "transfer at" is "people get off at this station"
17:36<ChoHag>So they're waiting at Cairo, they want the train going through Seoul so they can get off at Cairo?
17:37<@Terkhen>hmm... maybe they are local passengers from Cairo
17:37<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: just that one of the "post cards" contained a base jump off a wind mill
17:37<ChoHag>There's only one stop in Cairo.
17:38<ChoHag>I started a new game to look into this weirdness.
17:38<@Terkhen>ChoHag: that's what I mean: a passenger wants to go from Cairo to Cairo
17:38<@Terkhen>since there is no line from Cairo to Cairo, they pick up a very wrong alternative
17:40<ChoHag>Right, so that would be a bug then?
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17:42<@Terkhen>reporting the situation to the yacd thread will not hurt
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>include save game, if possible
17:43<ChoHag>Ah yes good point.
17:43*ChoHag saves
17:51<ChoHag>Heh I think the find-the-nearest-town function may be a bit broken.
17:51<ChoHag>Airport slap bang in one city has the name of a nearby town.
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>the north corner is what counts
17:54<ChoHag>I'd still say it's close to Moscow than Zurich, but only just.
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>the distance function is not necessary euclidean
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18:01<__ln__>congrats Terkhen
18:02<@Terkhen>hmm? thanks, but why? :P
18:02<__ln__>Terkhen: for getting 12 points and not being on the last position anymore
18:04*Terkhen does not follow that contest
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18:06<@Terkhen>I have no clue of who is our candidate this year, but if (s)he is like the ones we had in previous years we probabaly deserve last position
18:07<__ln__>it was some chick
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>interesting that anybody outside germany remembers the "Danke Anke!" phrase :p
18:09<__ln__>another 12 to spain from your other neighbours
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18:16<__ln__>that israeli guy had practiced german at home in advance
18:17<+glx>I always forget israel is in europe :)
18:18<__ln__>me too, i thought it's a US state
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>glx: it's not really geographical europe
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18:19<@Terkhen>it is considered in europe for anything else besides this contest?
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>nope
18:22<asilv>it is part of europe in most sports too, would be too much trouble with arab countries otherwise
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's some kind of rule that members of the european broadcasting union can take part, and there's some crude longitude/latitude rule for this
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18:32*__ln__ checks the map to see where is ajerbaijan
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>east of turkey, south of russia
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18:34<Eddi|zuHause>caucasus
18:34<__ln__>north of iran
18:35<__ln__>at the heart of europe
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19:13<Eddi|zuHause>we should impose the ESC voting system for something like electing the european president :p
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>each country nominates a candidate, and you can't vote for the one from your country
19:15<@Terkhen>good night
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22:00<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun May 15 00:00:39 2011