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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-15

---Logopened Sun May 15 00:00:39 2011
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03:24<@Terkhen>good morning
03:25<@Alberth>did anybody try yacd with conditional orders?
03:25*Terkhen did not
03:29<@Alberth>yesterday I had a train driving circles, picking up batteries, and delivering it to two other toy-factories. At some point they brought cargo back to the pickup station, while toy-factories really don't produce batteries :) I had a conditional order to return to the pickup station if the train was empty after the first delivery
03:29<@Terkhen>hmm... strange
03:29<@Alberth>did anybody rename stations in yacd? (I did that too)
03:30<devilsadvocate>Alberth: yeah, that happens
03:30<devilsadvocate>Alberth: from what i can tell it somehow ends up routing the things in sort of recursive way
03:30<@Alberth>devilsadvocate: in 2.2 the cargo bug is supposed to be fixed
03:31<devilsadvocate>Alberth: iirc you can avoid that by making sure to use no load orders at those stations
03:31<@Alberth>apparently not :)
03:31<@Alberth>ah, didn't change the orders. good point
03:32<@Alberth>although yacd should take care of that :)
03:33<@Alberth>devilsadvocate: do you have a save game just before such a thing happens? I am sure the yacd author would appreciate it
03:34<devilsadvocate>Alberth: dont think so
03:34<devilsadvocate>i should be able to generate it, though
03:34<devilsadvocate>will take a few days, though. this is somewhat a hectic period
03:36<@Alberth>I will experiment a bit further, thanks for the input
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05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22461 /branches/1.1/ (21 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Zero register 0x100 as specified before resolving custom station foundations (r22452)
05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not 'log' the NewGRFs in the screenshot when in the menu [FS#4610] (r22450)
05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Keep better accounting of the order in which clients joined; client can't
05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: be starved from joining and they get shown the amount of clients waiting in
05:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: front of them. (r22372, r22370, r22369, r22368, r22367, r22366, r22365, r22364,
05:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22462 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (21 files): [1.1] -Backport language changes from trunk
06:00*andythenorth is having a lot of fun with YACD
06:01<@Terkhen>andy playing the game... this is new :P
06:04<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/Snoozeweed%20Transport%2C%2025th%20Sep%201987.png
06:04<andythenorth>big transfer yards, large mixed mainline trains, local feeders
06:04<andythenorth>and *lots* of ships :P
06:05<andythenorth>a demand graph / map / list would be really useful
06:06<Zuu>indeed
06:06<@Terkhen>yes :)
06:06<Zuu>Although, a map with all demand relations plotted tend to be a big mess.
06:06<andythenorth>it needs to be on a per cargo basis
06:07<andythenorth>lines on a map might be enough
06:07<andythenorth>or a reverse lookup on a per industry basis
06:07<Zuu>A pax demand map would still be a mess ^^
06:07<andythenorth>yes. but for freight there's a point where there are enough nodes connected that the cargo starts flowing quite freely around the map
06:08<andythenorth>at that point it would be really handy to know what the unlinked nodes are
06:08<andythenorth>would be useful for similar reason at start of game
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06:08<andythenorth>currently I have to search each industry manually to see who it's trying to supply
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06:09<andythenorth>hmm
06:09*andythenorth thinks 'demand' could be modelled as supply
06:09<Zuu>But indeed, more tools to help understand the demand would be useful.
06:10<andythenorth>so if industry A supplies 40 crates to industry B, then the demand on that link is 40
06:10<andythenorth>and if industry C supplies 30 crates to industry B, then total demand at B is 70 crates
06:11<andythenorth>hmm
06:11<@Terkhen>extended "link to smallmap" behaviour
06:11<andythenorth>unmet demand might be the most useful
06:11<andythenorth>which could be vertical bars on the minimap
06:11<@Terkhen>industry->link to smallmap shows the demand graph for that industry
06:11<@Terkhen>same for a town
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06:11<@Terkhen>sounds complicated to implement, though
06:11<andythenorth>unmet demand would probably swing wildly on a monthly basis
06:12<andythenorth>unrelated, I am starting to really hate the 'production last month' at industries
06:12<andythenorth>it's not something I can adjust with newgrf either
06:12<@Terkhen>what do you mean?
06:12<andythenorth>the latency is too high
06:13<andythenorth>when a vehicle delivers, I have to then wait up to 1 month to see where the processed cargo wanted to go
06:14<@Terkhen>oh
06:15<andythenorth>it could run whenever the production cb runs
06:15<andythenorth>it's legacy stuff from original TTD, where production cb was a non-thing ;)
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06:18<andythenorth>michi_cc: does YACD calculate destinations on monthly production change, or when cargo is processed?
06:18<andythenorth>(for industry)
06:18<Zuu>"industry-> link to smallmap" has the adventage that there will not be any crossing demand lines on the graph, which makes the graph easier to read.
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06:50<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> which could be vertical bars on the minimap <-- bad idea, CargoDist had the capacities in vertical bars, they obstruct the view too much, especially on short links
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06:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking that it would be (yet another) different view on the minimap
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and i was telling you that bars are a bad idea
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06:59<andythenorth>other suggestions?
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>YACDest uses line width for the link graph already
07:00<andythenorth>hmm
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>while that is not very specific, it gives a nice overview
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07:00<andythenorth>the issue is to represent demand at a point
07:00<andythenorth>I can't think of a way to do that without a graphic that uses a size relation
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>"demand" is the sum of all line thicknesses of incoming lines
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>in the link graph, there is also the size of the squares for the stations
07:02<andythenorth>I'm confused about how to use the link graph to identify unmet demand?
07:02<andythenorth>that seems to be an oxymoron?
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think you misunderstand me
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm all for a "demand graph" similar to the "link graph"
07:09<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Demand links and weights are recalculated monthly, because that's also the interval the various production statistics for industries and towns are updated.
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm just against using bars.
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07:19<Wolf01>hello
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07:26*andythenorth wonders what the performance implication would be of using 30 day moving average for industry production
07:27<andythenorth>or 30 day total rather
07:33<@planetmaker>hello
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08:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22463 /trunk/src/fios_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4615]: Update the fios GUI immediatelly after scanning a new directory, so queued events reach the window when already updated.
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09:02<andythenorth>yacd is insanely addictive :P
09:05<@planetmaker>good :-)
09:06<@Terkhen>:)
09:08<@Alberth>for some reason I only find bugs in it :)
09:08<Rubidium>finding bugs before it hits trunk is good ;)
09:09<@Alberth>yeah, but it kills the fun :(
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09:10<andythenorth>is anyone else playing YACD + FIRS?
09:11<@Alberth>I haven't dared doing that yet
09:14<andythenorth>is there storage that could handle lifetime statistics for vehicles?
09:15<@Terkhen>I tried YACD + normal industries and failed
09:18<@planetmaker>I've the feeling to start with yacd and industries is MUCH harder than passenger transport
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09:19<andythenorth>I was losing money until I started a PAX network
09:19<andythenorth>after 120 years, I'm still not sure freight is net positive :
09:19<andythenorth>:P
09:19<andythenorth>some trains are making money, some are losing :P
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>income/cost statistics per cargo type would be nice
09:22<andythenorth>yarp
09:23*andythenorth isn't sure where town cargos are trying to go
09:23<andythenorth>covering the whole town with goods trucks seems overkill
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>they go to a specific tile, if that tile is not covered by a station, the cargo won't get generated for you.
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09:25<Eddi|zuHause>this actually makes cargo sinks like shops and fuel stations useful, because they will draw more food than an average town tile
09:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: setups like http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=946279#p946279 do seem to make money (until a bug kills it ;) )
09:41<@Alberth>I am leaning towards making many point-to-point connections to transport cargo. that way you get double direction sort of for free.
09:41<@Alberth>I am just experimenting with a single cargo though
09:41<andythenorth>do you want my current save? :)
09:41<@Alberth>sure
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09:45<andythenorth>hmm
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09:46<Eddi|zuHause>have i suggested yet that secondary industries should cluster near cities?
09:47<@planetmaker>that's a newgrf task, Eddi|zuHause ;-) And with FIRS some do
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>i know. i was kinda hinting towards andythenorth ;)
09:47<@planetmaker>but as scale is arbitrary, "near a city" is a very chewing-gum like definition
09:48<andythenorth>the ones that need to locate near cities already do ;)
09:48<andythenorth>the rest...its arbitrary
09:48<andythenorth>I have player feedback arguing both ways
09:48<@planetmaker>andythenorth: parameter ;-)
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>if secondary industries like saw and steel mills are near cities, it makes reusing passenger networks for freight easier
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>better than a lonely steel mill in the mountains
09:50<andythenorth>it also makes building routes a pita
09:50<andythenorth>near cities you often don't have the 10x10 tiles that a busy secondary industry might need for stations
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09:52<Eddi|zuHause>you usually have the side that is opposite to the city
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>and with "near" i mean like 20 tiles away
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>and you can have a transfer station further away, and then send a mixed cargo train from the transfer station to the industry, then the industry itself doesn't need that huge of a station
09:54<andythenorth>true
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>(works very well with destinations)
09:54<@Alberth>andythenorth: you also had a problem with disappearing cargo, like this? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54253&p=946304#p946304
09:54<@Terkhen>hmm... secondary industries near towns makes sense
09:55<andythenorth>Alberth: that's similar to the problem where you replace a vehicle and it then won't load
09:55<andythenorth>it's usually fixed by sending the vehicle along the route
09:55<andythenorth>there's another problem-by-design where cargo is removed if a link is broken
09:56<@Alberth>Terkhen: no they don't, I cannot make a decent profit bringing goods to the city then :p
09:56<andythenorth>Terkhen: secondary industries only make sense near cities with YACD
09:56<andythenorth>in default game, what Alberth said
09:56<@Terkhen>yes, I was thinking on yacd
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: doesn't need a "force near city", just a random chance, like 70% near city, 30% elsewhere
09:57*Alberth looks for yacd 1.3
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10:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: sure it is yacd 1.3? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=945285#p945285 says there will be no 1.3, also there is no 1.3 patch source code version posted in the thread
10:06<andythenorth>oops
10:06*andythenorth edits
10:06<andythenorth>sorry :m
10:06<@Alberth>np :)
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10:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: using non-released fishes, firses, heqses, and chipies, eh? :p
10:51<andythenorth>yarp
10:51<andythenorth>sorry
10:51<@planetmaker>:-)
10:51<andythenorth>should be on the bundles server mostly
10:51<@planetmaker>one can only play so many games
10:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22464 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt src/os/windows/win32.cpp): -Fix [FS#4587]: [Windows] Prevent a crash when launching OpenTTD with -d from a MSYS console. Added a note to known-bugs about this issue.
10:51<@planetmaker>so testing ones own stuff in them... seems quite fair :-)
10:51*planetmaker always does that
10:51<andythenorth>Yexo: ever coded custom foundations for stations?
10:51<@planetmaker>(well, also andy's stuff ;-) )
10:52<@Alberth>oh, that's no problem, as long as you don't give the version away to others :)
10:52<@planetmaker>:-)
10:52<@planetmaker>well, that'd be calling it a release then
10:53<@Alberth>s/version/game/
10:53<@planetmaker>well, then compatible versions *should* do
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10:54<@planetmaker>or if you can provide the newgrf versions (like I did for my last AI test game I reported on)
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10:55<@Alberth>heqs does work, fish and firs do not, it seems
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10:55<andythenorth>do you want the versions I've got?
10:56<andythenorth>I don't know what differs with FIRS
10:56<@planetmaker>did you check the nightly versions from the bundle server?
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11:19<@Alberth>andythenorth: what fish do you use? fish-nightly-r626.zip does not work
11:20<andythenorth>I'll pm it to you
11:20<andythenorth>possibly the bundles server hasn't built recent changes
11:20<@Alberth>also, it may be useful to make a tar inside the zip
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11:22<andythenorth>Alberth: ygm
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11:28<@Alberth>andythenorth: lots of ships!
11:30<andythenorth>eats my battery :p
11:30<andythenorth>ships win
11:30<andythenorth>the capacity per tile is much higher :P
11:31<@Alberth>also you get industry closer together due to all that water?
11:31<andythenorth>probably
11:31<@Alberth>the water reminds me of an experiment I want to do :)
11:31<andythenorth>industry close together makes routing mainlines *hard*
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>i sometimes wish i could separate the ships to different docks within one station, especially by cargo type
11:32<andythenorth>I wish there could be multiple docks per station
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11:32<andythenorth>when there is a station with water on two sides, it's inconvenient :P
11:32<andythenorth>only one side can be used for ships
11:34<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: does station joining and a few buoys to split the stream work?
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: you can't join docks
11:34<@Alberth>bummer :(
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>docks should be split into "loading bays" like road stations (three per dock)
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>then some multistop-like behaviour could be adapted
11:39<@Alberth>that won't survive newgrf ports?
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11:43<Eddi|zuHause>i think it should.
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>even after newgrf-roadstations, multiple road stations combined should work
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>and the default stations staying (mostly) like they are
11:47<@Alberth>what is called 'dock' now is a 'loading bay' for you? (then we agree completely, except I was not introducing a new level inside a station, which could be a good idea imho)
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12:03<andythenorth>newgrf ports? what's that then? :P
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12:10<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, yes, in the first step, each dock would have one loading bay at the end, but i also propose to introduce onemore at each side of it, so you have one ship loading at the end, and two on the side of the dock
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>if you then do things like enforce only one ship be able to load/unload at each loading bay, you don't even have to introduce only-one-ship-per-tile rules outside of docks
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12:16<@Yexo><andythenorth> Yexo: ever coded custom foundations for stations? <- no
12:16<@Yexo>all station coding I've ever done is CHIPS
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12:18<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you should ask MB :p
12:19<andythenorth>Yexo: I wondered if foundations would be an interesting projet
12:19<andythenorth>project /s
12:19<@Yexo>perhaps, I haven't really looked into that yet
12:19<andythenorth>I'm wondering if we can detect when we're on a coast tile...
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12:20<@Yexo>but unless you have some very good graphics that enhance the station I think it's a lot of work for very little gain
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>"adjacent to water" maybe
12:20<andythenorth>I was thinking to match the dock
12:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: coast tile *is* water
12:20<andythenorth>which makes for some interesting problems
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>not when there's a station on it
12:20<andythenorth>hmm
12:20<andythenorth>interesting point
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12:27<andythenorth>in my happy world multi-docks counts as 'exciting' :)
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12:29<andythenorth>Yexo: did you see the issue wrt CHIPS metal cargo?
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12:31<@Yexo>working on that now
12:32<andythenorth>:)
12:33<andythenorth>should have been within my skills to fix, but I couldn't see the source of the problem
12:33<@Yexo>cargo label is STEL, right?
12:34<andythenorth>yup
12:34<andythenorth>05h in the table
12:34<@Yexo>yep, got that
12:38<@Yexo>andythenorth: did you forget to change the \b18 to \b19? (first line of the diff)
12:38<@Yexo>that would explain why it didn't work
12:39<andythenorth>no I did that
12:39<@Yexo>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/revisions/26d856cf47cb/diff
12:39<andythenorth>unless I did that and forgot to save :P
12:39<@Yexo>that works, not sure what you did then :p
12:39<andythenorth>pasted this in both template files: #include "simple_empty_tile_1_cargo.tnfo"
12:40<andythenorth>should have changed it appropriately
12:40<andythenorth>oops
12:40<andythenorth>:|
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12:41<andythenorth>playing a busy game is a good incentive to add cargo graphics :)
12:41-!-Amis [~Amis@catv-89-135-77-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #openttd
12:41<andythenorth>although the 'only one cargo shown at once' issue is nagging at me
12:41<andythenorth>there's no easy solution to that :(
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12:43<@Yexo>you can't make the same mistake again :)
12:44<@Yexo>or in other words: you can now directly copy the lines between both files
12:44<andythenorth>he
12:44<andythenorth>mistake-proofing
12:44<andythenorth>poka-yoke
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13:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22465 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix [FS#4613]: When determining the executable path failed, the working directory was used instead, circumventing the not-home-directory check.
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22466 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt dutch.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
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14:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22467 /branches/1.1/ (7 files in 4 dirs):
14:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
14:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: When determining the executable path failed, the working directory was used instead, circumventing the not-home-directory check [FS#4613] (r22465)
14:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] Prevent a crash when launching OpenTTD with -d from a MSYS console [FS#4587] (r22464)
14:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Update the saveload window immediatelly after scanning a new directory, so queued events reach the window when already updated [FS#4615] (r22463)
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14:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22468 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 6 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare for 1.1.1-RC1
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14:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22469 /tags/1.1.1-RC1/ (. src/os/windows/ottdres.rc.in src/rev.cpp.in): -Release: 1.1.1-RC1
14:40<Chris_Booth>can anyone here tell me where I can get a win32/64 compile of r18927
14:40<Chris_Booth>and yes I know it is a very very old nighlty
14:40<Rubidium>from the objs/win32 directory when you build it from source?
14:41<Chris_Booth>Rubidium what if I can't compile here since I have no compiler on my laptop?
14:42<Rubidium>install the compiler? We don't keep the binaries for longer than 2 months
14:42<@planetmaker>Chris_Booth: from your other computer where you have it installed?
14:42<Chris_Booth>I would if I was in the same city as my other computer, but I am not and will not be until friday
14:43<Rubidium>what's so special about that nightly?
14:43<Chris_Booth>ooh well it will have to wait then
14:43<Chris_Booth>wanted it to view a saved game in the #openttdcoop archive that bombs out in current nightly and current trunk
14:44<@planetmaker>trunk should load them all
14:44<Chris_Booth>doesn't that is why I wanted the old nightly
14:44<Chris_Booth>to see if save was broken
14:44<@planetmaker>Unless they were done with a broken nightly. Sometimes that's the case, though rarely
14:45<Chris_Booth>I can give you the crash.dmp file planetmaker
14:45<Chris_Booth>something to do with a broken train
14:45<@planetmaker>the savegame number might be more interesting
14:46<Chris_Booth>PSG 174
14:47<Chris_Booth>planetmaker http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7429567/Openttd_Crash.png
14:48<Rubidium>smells like broken savegame, even though it might appear to work in r18927
14:48<Chris_Booth>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7429567/Crash_Report.txt
14:48<@SmatZ>missing grfs?
14:49<Chris_Booth>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7429567/crash.zip
14:49<Chris_Booth>SmatZ no don't be silly
14:49<Chris_Booth>I have all the GRFs from ever PSG
14:49<Chris_Booth>I never delete them
14:51<Rubidium>Chris_Booth: really, then why did you load compatible NewGRFs instead of the right NewGRFs?
14:51<@SmatZ>Chris_Booth: how long after start does that crash?
14:51<@planetmaker>I've seen that message iirc with borked savegames
14:51<Chris_Booth>as soon as I unpause
14:51<Chris_Booth>you can view map while paused
14:52<Chris_Booth>save seems to think I don't have BK tunnels 0.3b but I do
14:52<Rubidium>not the same version then
14:53<@SmatZ>the problem might be in the japanese stations set
14:53<Rubidium>but... disconnecting train + changed station NewGRF => the IDs changes in the NewGRF
14:53<Rubidium>and I guess you have the newgrf_developer thing turned on
14:54<Rubidium>as without it it shouldn't be loaded (AFAIR)
14:54<@SmatZ>PSG#174 loads and runs fine for me in trunk
14:54<Chris_Booth>good point Rubidium I do have GRF dev on
14:54<Chris_Booth>will turn it off
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>this was a very textbook case of "ask too specific question that won't solve your problem"
15:05<@planetmaker>I've no problem with psg174 either
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>you should save a reference to this discussion when the next person asks why we don't allow changing newgrfs ingame
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>add "for" in above sentence at the appropriate place
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15:09<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause, yes it does make sence sometimes
15:09<Chris_Booth>I just forgot to turn it back off
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>Chris_Booth: but you still ignored the big red warning box on loading the game, and you didn't suspect it was the cause of your crash
15:11<Chris_Booth>what big red warning box?
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15:54*Rubidium wonders what the gift-cards that Luukland offers entail (and cost)
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>the what?!
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>i probably don't want to know...
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15:57<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: they website (or rather privacy policy) says "We offer gift-cards by which you can personalize a product you order for another person"
15:57<Rubidium>so that makes me wonder what it entails
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like gibberish....
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16:00<@Alberth>a little white card where you can write your own personal message :p
16:07<@planetmaker>good night
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17:21<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.1.0, 1.1.1-RC1
17:21-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.0, 1.1.1-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
17:23<frosch123>my "1" key seems to hang a bit
17:25<@Terkhen>:P
17:33<frosch123>night
17:33<frosch123>1, 1, eleventyone!
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17:42<__ln__>no, 6-1
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18:13<@Terkhen>good night
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18:37<Eddi|zuHause>i just thought "oh great, another useless XML suggestion", and i clearly wasn't disappointed
18:42<Zuu>XML is never going to magically solve your problems. :-)
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18:45<__ln__>you misspelled "always" as "never"
18:46<Zuu>where?
18:49<__ln__>XML will always magically solve problems
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18:50<Zuu>Oh. I miss-read "as" as "and" :-p
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18:50<Zuu>and though you were refering to some post at the forums.
18:51<__ln__>nah, i don't read the forums, except some links pasted here
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20:16<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun May 15 20:23:48 2011
---Logopened Sun May 15 20:27:56 2011
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---Logclosed Mon May 16 00:00:50 2011