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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-05-18

---Logopened Wed May 18 00:00:54 2011
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00:44<pikka>o
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01:36<@peter1138>p
01:37-!-KJN [~chatzilla@ip-89-174-40-90.multimo.pl] has joined #openttd
01:38<KJN>Hi guys, is there a way to fix a "referncing invalid vehicle" thing (with savegames) on my own?
01:50<@Terkhen>good morning
01:58<KJN>Is there any OpenTTD expert out there?
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02:10<@planetmaker>moin
02:12<@planetmaker>KJN: try 'resetengines' in the console. But you only get invalid vehicles if you ignored a big red warning message
02:13<KJN>I didn't.
02:13<KJN>My computer crushed after beeing "sleeped" on several occasions.
02:14<KJN>I restarted it. Reopened TTD and show some savegames with "chunk something" and all the rest with that vehicle warning.
02:14<KJN>show=saw
02:15<KJN>Where should I open this console? I cannot load any game right now...
02:16<@planetmaker>thus you agreed to them appearing ;-)
02:16<KJN>The only red warning massege i the one I see when trying to load a game!
02:16<KJN>And this is a small one.
02:17<KJN>I don;t even know what taht "big red warning" looks like!
02:19<@planetmaker>my suspicion is that you change newgrfs at some stage in those savegames
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02:19<andythenorth>hmm
02:19<andythenorth>with YACD, power stations might make more sense
02:19<@planetmaker>but you could make one of those savegames available.
02:19<KJN>No, I can't.
02:19<@peter1138>*crashed
02:19<KJN>That's a problem.
02:20<@planetmaker>er...?
02:20<@planetmaker>well.
02:21<@planetmaker>are your savegames top secret?
02:21<KJN>All the savegames I have (or those not older than two days at least) are: either unknown chunk type or invalid vehicle.
02:21<KJN>No they are obviously not :)
02:22<@planetmaker>[08:19] planetmaker but you could make one of those savegames available. <-- where's then the problem with that?
02:22<KJN>What do you mean "available"? Available to you, you mean?
02:22<@planetmaker>yes
02:22<KJN>Of course I can!
02:22<@planetmaker>i.e. give me a link to one :-)
02:23<@planetmaker>KJN: what version of OpenTTD do you use?
02:23<@planetmaker>and which did you use to create those savegames?
02:24<KJN>Ok. You want me to upload it somehere, mail it or post it?
02:24<KJN>Bot the program and savegames are 1.1.0
02:24<@planetmaker>you'll get 'invalid chunks' if you used non-official, i.e. patched versions of OpenTTD, which usually are incompatible
02:24<@planetmaker>uploading it somewhere sounds fine
02:25<KJN>Alle I have is from official OpenTTD website. i don;t even use extras of any sorts.
02:25<KJN>Give me sec.
02:30<KJN>I'm sending all of them just for any case.
02:31<@planetmaker>o_O
02:31<KJN>utosave15 is probably tha latest (probably since it's that unknown chunk).
02:31<KJN>The link is http://www.na-wczoraj.pl/openttd/ but please wait for autosave15 (there already some of them uploaded there).
02:37<@planetmaker>I see now what you mean...
02:38<@peter1138>shame your directory list doesn't include timestamps
02:38<@planetmaker>:-)
02:40<@planetmaker>but good question... how old are these autosaves according to you filemanager, KJN ?
02:40<KJN>I'll take a look.
02:41<KJN>So:
02:41<KJN>the oldest autosave0 is today 5:04
02:41<@planetmaker>hm
02:42<KJN>the newest autosave15 is 6:06
02:43<KJN>Autosaves monthly. No wonder that all of them are from today.
02:44<KJN>I also put one savegame from yesterday (not autosave).
02:44<@planetmaker>same issue.
02:45<@planetmaker>where did you get your openttd version from?
02:47<KJN>openttd official website I guess
02:48<KJN>Almost sure in fact.
02:48<@peter1138>almost?
02:48<KJN>Had a previous version, read the post somewhere there's a noewer one and went to openttd.org
02:49<KJN>I might have used a link provided but I doubt it. I usually prefer downloading things from official sites muself.
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02:49<KJN>Nothing suspicious here, trust me.
02:50<@planetmaker>well, I'm unfortunately out of clues for now; I don't manage to unpack the savegames at this moment, thus no hex editing and I've not seen this behaviour before from official release versions
02:50<@planetmaker>does it work for new savegames you create?
02:50<KJN>How about those which show invalid vehicle and not unkwon chunk?
02:50<KJN>No success either?
02:50<@planetmaker>no :-(
02:50<@planetmaker>you don't use newgrfs, right?
02:51<KJN>I'll check just to be 100% sure.
02:51<@planetmaker>I'd have expected that when loading very old savegames with newgrfs which did not yet save their use in the savegame.
02:51<KJN>No I don;t. Just chcecked.
02:52<@peter1138>they're all missing lots of chunks
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02:53<KJN>Te thing is I use vanilla version straight from the "box". and I'm really pissed off 'cos I was trying a new strategy in this game to find out if it's better than a standard one.
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02:53<KJN>I spend several days of carefull planning. Normally I would not give a damn and start a new game simply.
02:54<@planetmaker>I understand that
02:55<@peter1138>do you have a save of the last working version?
02:55<KJN>I found the last version wroking. It's from the 15th.
02:55<KJN>Funny :) I typed the answer at the time you typed a question :)
02:55<@peter1138>:)
02:56<@planetmaker>which save is that?
02:56<KJN>You don't have it. upload?
02:56<@planetmaker>autosave15?
02:56<@planetmaker>or the non-autosave?
02:57<KJN>No, no. Not an autosave.
02:57<KJN>All autosaves are corrupted.
02:57<KJN>It's Agnir TRA 1993
02:59<@planetmaker>ah, it didn't show up right then. Got it now
03:00<KJN>It dodn't since I uploaded it after your request.
03:00<@planetmaker>:-)
03:11<KJN>Be back in 3 minutes.
03:18<KJN>I'm back (and patient) - take any time you need to restore soth of that. And if you do... I'll name a child after you! :)
03:19<@planetmaker>:-D
03:22<@peter1138>zomg, a desync
03:22<@peter1138>but i'm using yacd
03:22<@peter1138>so it could be that
03:24<@peter1138>meh, and again
03:24<@planetmaker>desync?
03:25<@planetmaker>you're playing MP yacd?
03:25<@peter1138>yeah
03:25<@planetmaker>:-)
03:25<@peter1138>i dunno if it is actually yacd or not
03:25<@peter1138>but i'm not using any newgrfs
03:27<dihedral>good morning :-)
03:28<Sacro>yacd?
03:28<@Terkhen>I played yacd 1.0 with a friend for an hour and we had no desyncs
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03:36<KJN>planetmaker: Any luck? Or you just simply don't want my child to have stupid name?
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03:36<@planetmaker>no luck, I'm afraid
03:36<KJN>Are we giving up?
03:37<@planetmaker>for now I will, as I've work work stuff to do. And I still have no idea how that could come by
03:37<KJN>Me neither.
03:37<@planetmaker>What would really help us is a way how you manage to create the broken savegames
03:37<KJN>Thanks for yot time and effort.
03:37<@planetmaker>If you can willingly cause that...
03:37<@planetmaker>that'll probably help a lot
03:38<KJN>Well I was surprised myself.
03:38<@planetmaker>like 'take this savegame, do that, save'. But... I'd really wonder if it will be that easy. Others would have noticed that, too, then
03:38<KJN>It's never happened before.
03:39<KJN>I don;t think it will work. 3 days has passd since it saved correctly.
03:39<KJN>How can you follow everything I dod?
03:39<KJN>*did
03:39<@planetmaker>I can't
03:40<KJN>One hint: the computer has been put to sleep on several occassions with the game running.
03:40<@planetmaker>unless you use a desync debug build and would give us all those data. But that's probably more work than it's worth
03:40<@planetmaker>maybe there's some kind of interference there...
03:40<KJN>After several "sleeps" all the saves come up corrupted.
03:40<@planetmaker>with the sleep mode
03:40<KJN>All of them including non-autosave.
03:41<@planetmaker>but each time?
03:41<KJN>I'm pretty sure it was the forst time I did it so often.
03:41<KJN>*first
03:43<KJN>Sleeping saves a cmputer state to a hardrive. Maybe OpenTTD has some data stored somehere which I disregarded at that time. It's a long guess.
03:43<KJN>*is disregarded
03:44<KJN>I laso noticed you cannot ryn Skype and OpenTTD at the same time. That's something I'm sure of.
03:44<KJN>*also (run (sorry for this).
03:45<@planetmaker>works here.
03:46<KJN>Not with me. OpenTTD changes instantly into "fancy" colors on my machine.
03:46<@planetmaker>right... do you have a desktop manager or wallpaper changer running?
03:46<KJN>No.
03:47<@peter1138>well, 3rd time lucky, it didn't desync
03:47<KJN>I have a way to show it to you though if you give sec.
03:51<KJN>No I don't :( My recording software doesn't capture fullcreen openttd :(
03:51<@peter1138>i suspect you've hit some filesystem corruption with your suspend/resumes
03:53<KJN>Well, that would make more files corrupted and onlu those saved BEFORE sleeping.
03:53<KJN>That problem however applies only to openttd.
03:54<KJN>In a most annoying way since it DOESN"T tell you savegames are not good.
03:54<KJN>It worked just fine until I decided to step back and load some autosave.
03:55<@peter1138>i'm pretty sure it does tell you saving fails
03:57<KJN>Well do you really think I would keep saving this files for several hours if it did tell me saves are unsuccessful?
03:58<@peter1138>no, hence i suspect fs corruption
03:59<KJN>Ok. Let's test this theory. What do you suggest?
04:11<@peter1138>chkdsk? heh
04:14<@peter1138>hmm, could be memory corruption
04:14<@peter1138>dunno if that would result in an unsaveable game though
04:22<KJN>Ok. Guys. Thanks for all the help. Now I have to take my cat to the vet. He has a corruption of a tail which is equally or more painful than me losing three days of careful playing.
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04:32*andythenorth has a funny feeling that vehicle ferries are just not likely to be possible
04:32<andythenorth>seems too complicated :P
04:33<@peter1138>hmm?
04:33<@peter1138>what's the problem?
04:35<andythenorth>in respect of 'vehicles inside vehicles'
04:35<andythenorth>as per forum thread
04:35<andythenorth>and often-discussed
04:35<@peter1138>oh
04:35<@peter1138>it's surely possible
04:35<andythenorth>thinking about it makes my brain ache
04:36<andythenorth>although I'm not very clever :P
04:36<@peter1138>what's hard about the concept?
04:36<andythenorth>well why limit it as just ferries?
04:36<@peter1138>why indeed?
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04:37<andythenorth>basically to work, it needs 'vehicle inside vehicle'
04:37-!-bobingabout [5c286bd8@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
04:37<andythenorth>and from there it's a short hop-step-and-a-jump to full intermodal
04:37<bobingabout>hi
04:38<andythenorth>then we end up wanting a vehicle type 'container'
04:38<bobingabout>if using MSVC enterprise 2008, where do i put the files from openttduseful?
04:38<andythenorth>which can only move on other vehicles
04:38<andythenorth>then why stop there - container, crate, sack, parcel, box, envelope
04:39<andythenorth>and you end up with individually routed cargo packets, only implemented as vehicles in some bonkers system
04:39<@peter1138>well no need to go that far
04:39<@peter1138>there is the problem of how to (un)load vehicles on vehicles
04:40<andythenorth>would there need to be a new kind of magic station?
04:40<bobingabout>sounds like you're talking about a cargo in a cargo
04:40<@peter1138>could just be done by attaching a depot to the station
04:40<@peter1138>bobingabout, originally road/rail vehicles on ships. he's taking it too far :)
04:40<andythenorth>hmm
04:40<andythenorth>I don't see how you avoid taking it that far :P
04:40<bobingabout>right
04:40<andythenorth>all I have to do is create an RV 'container' with 0hp and max speed 0
04:41<bobingabout>so where do i put my .h and .lib files then?
04:41<andythenorth>and an RV that can load RVs
04:41<andythenorth>I don't think it wouldn't be fun, I just think it's bonkers :)
04:43<@peter1138>so don't do it!
04:43<andythenorth>he
04:43*andythenorth takes that advice
04:44<andythenorth>do you think anyone else will do it? I will take bets in units of 50p...
04:45<@peter1138>also remember that you're paid to transport cargo
04:45<@peter1138>so transporting vehicles probably wouldn't pay anything directly
04:46<andythenorth>hmm
04:46<andythenorth>would you be able to transport competitor vehicles?
04:47<bobingabout>fine, ignore bob
04:47<@peter1138>if the .h file is part of your source, it goes with your source
04:48<@peter1138>if it's part of the library, it goes somewhere else
04:48<bobingabout>openttduseful files
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04:48<@peter1138>library and library header files go in some random place that depends on what OS, compiler, etc, etc...
04:49<bobingabout>i already said MSVC enterprise 2008, so... i should just try to find wherever that installed itself and place my lib files with the other lib files in there, and the H files in the include folder in there too?
04:50<@peter1138>basically you put them all somewhere you like
04:51<@peter1138>then adjust MSVC's config to include that location as library and header paths
04:51<bobingabout>but then how does the program know where to find it
04:51*planetmaker points at the wiki http://wiki.openttd.org/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2008_Express_Editions
04:51<bobingabout>yeah, i looked for a config, can't find one
04:51<@peter1138>it's inside msvc
04:52<bobingabout>i googled it, and it says tools, options, directories, which doesn't seem to exist for me
04:52<bobingabout>i went to tools, and ooptions, but nowhere in the tree of options is there one called directories
04:59<bobingabout>actually, i think i found it
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05:10<@peter1138>aand it desynced again
05:10<@planetmaker>time to turn on desync debug ;-)
05:11<@Terkhen>yes, debugging is fun :)
05:11<@peter1138>how?
05:11<@planetmaker>set desync_debug 3 IIRC
05:11<@peter1138>on the server?
05:11<@planetmaker>yes
05:11<@peter1138>and client?
05:11*andythenorth ponders making this in current game: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=363299
05:11<@planetmaker>then save the game. and reload, so that it's a defined starting condition which can be followed
05:12<@peter1138>it probably won't desync then :p
05:12<@planetmaker>without a reload it's pointless
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05:12<@planetmaker>you then simply need to continue playing ;-)
05:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: what do you mean, the highway? :P
05:12<andythenorth>the entire yard :P
05:13<andythenorth>might work nicely with yacd
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05:13<@planetmaker>set debug_level desync=3
05:13<@planetmaker>is probably more correct, peter1138
05:14<@peter1138>nope
05:14<@peter1138>oh, it crashed
05:14<@peter1138>debug_level desync=3
05:14<@peter1138>BOOM
05:14<@peter1138>so now i have no savegame :p
05:14<@planetmaker>he
05:15<@planetmaker>no autosaves?
05:15<@planetmaker>stupid to turn that off ;-)
05:16<@peter1138>well i've got a crash.sav
05:16<@peter1138>sync=3
05:16<@peter1138>Error: Assertion failed at line 1105 of /usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/openttd.cpp: memcmp(&st->goods[c].cargo, buff, sizeof(StationCargoList)) == 0
05:16<@peter1138>Crash encountered, generating crash log...
05:20<@peter1138>that line asserts again
05:23<@peter1138>so maybe yacd does something that's incompatible with desync debug
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05:26*peter1138 suspects that vehicle ferries are TMWFTLB
05:26*andythenorth thought that
05:26-!-DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@ppp118-209-110-148.lns20.mel4.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd
05:26<andythenorth>they could bring some other win though
05:26<andythenorth>but that makes even more work :|
05:26<dihedral>^^
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05:27*dihedral is reminded of "the gassman commeth"
05:27<@peter1138><3 flanders & swann
05:29<@peter1138>yeah, so you need orders for vehicles to wait at some kind of ferry loading depot
05:29<@peter1138>then you need to make sure they board a ferry going the right way
05:29<@peter1138>hm
05:30<@peter1138>and disembark in the right place
05:31<@peter1138>mmm, lots of uis :p
05:32<andythenorth>what if they need servicing while en-route?
05:32<andythenorth>or if they break down?
05:33<andythenorth>assuming that it's silly to limit them to just ships, what happens if a plane/train/RV crashes while carrying other vehicles?
05:34<@Terkhen>we could apply the same policy than with passengers: everything is destroyed in a huge fireball
05:35<andythenorth>when my plane crashes, I get a few weeks to clone it
05:35<andythenorth>if my train crashes with 64 vehicles on it, how many news messages do I get :P
05:35<@peter1138>65 ;)
05:35*andythenorth doesn't think it's a bad idea, just....extensive :)
05:36<andythenorth>quite complicated for something that is effectively the same net result as a transfer order
05:36<andythenorth>although it would be nice to have mixed-cargo ships :|
05:36<@peter1138>yeah
05:36<andythenorth>what if I autoreplace a vehicle with one that has fewer slots for other vehicles?
05:36<@peter1138>vehicle ferries do make some sense
05:36<@Terkhen>IMO mixed cargo ships is simpler than vehicles inside other vehicles
05:37<@peter1138>vehicle trains a little, but less so
05:37<andythenorth>Terkhen: but it would come for free with vehicles-in-vehicles
05:37<@peter1138>vehicle aircraft... yeah, not really very common
05:37<andythenorth>war!
05:37<andythenorth>perhaps not :P
05:37<Noldo_>yeah
05:37<andythenorth>you'd need to be able to parachute them
05:37<Noldo_>I have a feeling UN might ferry their hardware around the world
05:38<@peter1138>hmm, vans on trains on boats...
05:38<@peter1138>hmm, or do "virtual ferries"
05:39<@peter1138>and just have vehicles teleport between docks, heh
05:39<@peter1138>(basically tunnels, but not straight, heh)
05:39<andythenorth>light aircraft on vans on trucks on narrow gauge trains on standard gauge trains on landing craft on barges on boats
05:39<andythenorth>peter1138: depots
05:40<@peter1138>the teleport is how i'd envisage vehicle ferries to work anyway
05:40<@peter1138>the ferry contains a list of vehicles "on" it, but really they're stopped in the waiting depot at the dock
05:40<@peter1138>when the ferry lands, they're teleported to the approriate depot on the other side
05:41<andythenorth>it's kind of neat
05:41<andythenorth>not necessary
05:41<@peter1138>i mean, unless you want funky loading animations too...
05:41<andythenorth>but what is necessary about the game?
05:41<@peter1138>what's not necessary?
05:41<andythenorth>all of it :)
05:41<@peter1138>well no
05:41<andythenorth>ferries would be cool
05:41<andythenorth>is that enough?
05:42<@peter1138>is that cool enough? hmmmmmmm
05:42<andythenorth>means I can add fairly infinite capacity to my train routes :P
05:42<@Terkhen>it's one of those things that is cool enough for having someone else doing it, but not cool enough for getting yourself into doing it :P
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05:42<andythenorth>ho
05:42<@peter1138>Terkhen, i might ;)
05:43<@peter1138>andythenorth, well you could limit the amount of vehicles waiting
05:43<andythenorth>hmm
05:43<@peter1138>and obviously limit the number of vehicles in a vehicle
05:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause was suggesting limiting number of ships at a dock (and making docks multi-stop)
05:43<andythenorth>which would destroy my fun with 'ship routes have infinite capacity' :P
05:44<@peter1138>until ships become solid, multistop docks are pointless, yeah
05:44<@planetmaker>it'll make sense. If you could combine several docks to one station
05:44<@Terkhen>I wonder how I managed to crash my irc client by pressing Ctrl+Z
05:44<andythenorth>not sure solid ships are needed for multistop docks?
05:44<@peter1138>you backgrounded it
05:44<andythenorth>RVs aren't entirely solid
05:44<@peter1138>not necessary, no
05:44<andythenorth>RVs are only solid like atoms are solid
05:45<@peter1138>i wanted to do multistop docks anyway
05:45<@peter1138>but never bothered
05:45<andythenorth>that would be initially cooler than ferries
05:45<@peter1138>though last time i remember thinking about it multistop road stops was in a state of flux too
05:45<andythenorth>ferries means a whole newgrf spec and other crap no?
05:45<@Terkhen>IIRC that was waiting on "NewGRF state machines for stations" too
05:45<@peter1138>no
05:45<andythenorth>interestink
05:45<andythenorth>tell more
05:46<@peter1138>andythenorth, just a callback, i suppose
05:46<andythenorth>'how many vehicles can I hold?'
05:46<andythenorth>'type of vehicles?'
05:46<andythenorth>those? And anything else?
05:46<andythenorth>total cargo capacity (weight?)
05:47<andythenorth>I'll support it in FISH if you patch it
05:47<@planetmaker>just a vehicle flag
05:47<@Terkhen>there is nothing that says the "real" size of a vehicle, but you could just always define it as "I can carry X vehicles of type Y"
05:47<andythenorth>I have some annoying vehicle ferries anyway
05:47<@planetmaker>it's up to the newgrf to set all other properties
05:47<andythenorth>I wanted to delete them from FISH
05:47<@planetmaker>like heli vs. plane
05:47<@Terkhen>or use a callback to check if the vehicle can be carried, similar to the "can be attached" callback
05:47<@planetmaker>or articulated vs. 'normal'
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05:48<@peter1138>yeah, could just be a simple property
05:48<@peter1138>but none of that is necessary to get the basics going
05:49<@peter1138>now, the order system...
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05:50<@Terkhen>what about a special order that makes the vehicle wait until it is loaded by other vehicle and then unloaded somewhere? the loaded vehicle orders would be freezed then
05:51<andythenorth>hmm
05:51<andythenorth>say I have a ferry for 8 vehicles, and I only have one on the route...how do I specify the load amount?
05:51*andythenorth deviates
05:51<Markk>What have I missed now?
05:51<Markk>Vehicle ferry? O.o
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06:03<@peter1138>way to kill the conversation :p
06:03<Markk>Yep.
06:03<Markk>Can see that.
06:03<Markk>Sheisse.
06:05<andythenorth>was going so nicely too :)
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06:12<Wolf01>hello
06:12<andythenorth>'goto x, await transport?'
06:12<andythenorth>'transport to y'
06:12<andythenorth>hmm
06:13<andythenorth>can't think of a way to consolidate that into one order
06:13<@Terkhen>cargo does not decide where to go
06:13<andythenorth>but vehicles do?
06:13<@Terkhen>but IMO as long as they are being transported they should be treated as cargo
06:13<@Terkhen>the carrier vehicle orders have preference
06:14*andythenorth puzzles how that could work
06:14<andythenorth>assuming carried vehicle is trying to get from A - D
06:14<andythenorth>and the ferry link B-C
06:14<andythenorth>carried vehicle needs to have orders for A-B-C-D no?
06:17<@Terkhen>go to A, go to B and wait for load, go to D
06:18<@planetmaker>sounds reasonable
06:24<@peter1138>well
06:24<@peter1138>if you have a specific type of depot for loading/unloading, then that it just a simple goto order
06:24<@peter1138>then you just need a way of getting unloaded in the right place
06:25<andythenorth>so you need to know to 'transport to C, get off the boat'
06:25<@peter1138>you need to get on the right boat
06:26<@peter1138>then get off at the right place, yeha
06:26<andythenorth>well you don't get on a boat that doesn't have C in it's orders?
06:26<@peter1138>could be "get on any boat that unloads at C
06:26<@peter1138>"
06:26<@peter1138>yeah
06:27<@peter1138>that would then be 1 order for loading onto the correct boat, and unloading at the correct place
06:27<@Terkhen>it could be converted to cargo with its destination set correctly for yacd, then a boat going to C would pick the vehicle up automatically
06:27<andythenorth>so for carrier vehicle, when it arrives, it just iterates it's orders for destination i, and loads any vehicle which unloads at i
06:27<@Terkhen>but then you depend on yacd :)
06:28<@peter1138>i don't think converting vehicles to cargo is the right way
06:28<andythenorth>and then you head into the crazy intermodal system I described earlier :)
06:28<andythenorth>which is the *correct* way to do it
06:28<andythenorth>but means it will never ship :P
06:28*andythenorth would rather a small bit of specific code was patched on for one cool feature, instead of a full new framework
06:29<andythenorth>then we all win
06:29*andythenorth goes back to work
06:29<andythenorth>http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=they'll+like+us+when+we+win&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&redir_esc=&ei=m5_TTeOiJI6PswaWxbzeAg
06:31<@peter1138>with the explicit disembark order, cargo routing would still work, i guess
06:31<@peter1138>i guess they'd be like waypoints for cargo routing purposes
06:32<andythenorth>if I have orders that get my vehicle from A-D, then the graph would be ok for yacd purposes?
06:32<andythenorth>assuming cargo wants to go from A-D
06:33<andythenorth>that it gets from B-C on a ferry is no business of yacd's
06:35<@peter1138>quite
06:36<@peter1138>i think terkhen is suggesting a system that would automatically route through the ship using the pathfinders
06:37<andythenorth>so it would be treated like a bridge or such?
06:37<andythenorth>the ferry becomes infrastructure...
06:37<@Terkhen>if the vehicle gets converted into "cargo wanting to go to C", it would be picked up by the next vehicle as normal
06:38*andythenorth wonders if it's actually fun to *have* to route vehicles on and off ferries
06:38<andythenorth>it might be
06:38<andythenorth>it might not
06:38<andythenorth>it might be something in between
06:38<@peter1138>andythenorth, i like playing with 60-70% water ;)
06:38<@peter1138>which i believe is higher than high
06:38*andythenorth tops that with 85%
06:38<andythenorth>as does danmack
06:39<andythenorth>:P
06:39<@peter1138>yacd with lots of water is fun
06:39<@Terkhen>^ I should try that
06:39<@planetmaker>peter1138: that's not high. That's about the fun ratio :-)
06:39<@planetmaker>through in mountanous and it's certainly nice
06:40<@peter1138>planetmaker, i mean "high" on the drop down list
06:40<@peter1138>which is about 40%
06:40<@planetmaker>meh... one gimp bug after the other :-P
06:40<@planetmaker>that may be true
06:40<@peter1138>39.0600% to be precise
06:41<@peter1138>is, not may :p
06:41<@peter1138>and yeha, mountainous, rough, low variation, 85% water
06:41<andythenorth>same as me
06:41<andythenorth>let's remove all other map gen options :P
06:42<@peter1138>:p
06:45<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/my_lovely_map_is_lovely.png
06:45<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/my_lovely_yacd.png
06:46<@Terkhen>wow :)
06:46<@Terkhen>I usually get bored before connecting that much
06:46<andythenorth>it's quite addictive :P
06:46<andythenorth>and it's not so hard to connect the yacd link graph
06:47<andythenorth>a few big stations, with feeders
06:47<andythenorth>and a small number of large mixed trains
06:47<@peter1138>you're quite fond of yacd then?
06:47<andythenorth>ahem
06:47<@planetmaker>wow :-)
06:47<andythenorth>it's the game it should always have been :P
06:47<andythenorth>particularly wrt transfers
06:47<@peter1138>you should've been playing simutrans then ;)
06:47<andythenorth>that's what my simutrans friend tells me
06:48<andythenorth>but simutrans has no class
06:48<@peter1138>simutrans does, indeed, smell
06:49<Noldo_>why is that?
06:49-!-Noldo_ is now known as Noldo
06:49<@planetmaker>I gave it a try one, two times. It didn't catch on
06:49-!-Noldo is now known as Guest1338
06:49<Guest1338>grrr
06:49<@peter1138>wonder if tron still hacks on it
06:50<@peter1138>simutrans' rail junctions suck, for one thing
06:50<@planetmaker>tron worked on simutrans?+
06:50<@planetmaker>also?
06:50<@peter1138>after he left openttd
06:50<@planetmaker>he
06:50<@peter1138>he improved its performance considerably
06:51-!-Guest1338 is now known as Noldo
06:51<Noldo>better
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06:58<andythenorth>can a ferry carry mixed vehicle types?
06:58<andythenorth>e.g. RV + train?
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06:59<@peter1138>depends what you want
07:00<@peter1138>makes sense to allow it
07:00<@peter1138>i guess some people would like to see 'real' waiting areas, with road vehicles queueing and trains waiting in sidings, heh
07:01<andythenorth>screw them :P
07:01<andythenorth>umm
07:01<andythenorth>sorry
07:01*andythenorth meant to say 'support that request'
07:01<andythenorth>put a magic signal on the depot
07:01<andythenorth>make them queue until a carrier vehicle arrives
07:02<andythenorth>might have some...problems
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07:06*andythenorth -> tea for one
07:06<andythenorth>is pikka here?
07:08<@peter1138>hmm, tea
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07:27<andythenorth>hmm
07:27<andythenorth>ship depots building in the middle of the ocean seems silly
07:27<andythenorth>or do they float?
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07:30<@planetmaker>those are dry docks, they float
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07:56<@peter1138>still desyncs
07:56<@peter1138>can't debug desyncs though
07:56<@peter1138>hmm
07:57<@peter1138>maybe i should upload my save :D
07:57<@planetmaker>did you start with debug_level desyn=3 ?
07:57<@planetmaker>and have still the initial savegame?
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08:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22473 /trunk/src/ (65 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: Automatic orders are better called implicit orders as no real order influencing path finding is added
08:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22474 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: Reflect r22473 also in how it reads in the order list
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08:43<Ammler>oh, desyncs? :-(
08:45<dihedral>hello Ammler
08:45<dihedral>:-)
08:46<Ammler>Salü dih
08:46<@planetmaker>salut vous deux
08:46<dihedral>how is ammler?
08:50<Ammler>soso lala :-)
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09:19<@Belugas>hello
09:22<@peter1138>down at the bottom of the garden
09:23<@peter1138>among the birds and the bees
09:23<@peter1138>a little lotta little people
09:23<@peter1138>they're called the poddington peas
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09:25<@peter1138>planetmaker, it crashes with debug_level desync=3
09:25<@peter1138>instant crash
09:26<@peter1138>well, on the first tick anyway
09:26<@planetmaker>hm, ok... reproducably then, I guess
09:26<@Belugas>someone is watching morning cartoons or is babysitting...
09:27<@peter1138>hehe, i think i saw an exgf from school on the way in, her last name rhymes with poddington
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09:34<@peter1138>pom te pom
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "pommes de terre"
09:37<@Belugas>never saw that show in here
09:37<@Belugas>i jsut discovered there are tons of shows i've not seen either...
09:38<@Belugas>and some i've seen only in english that are already translated!
09:41<@Belugas>like Defying Gravity... lovely show
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>one of the shows whose unsucess was totally undeserved
09:47<@peter1138>hmm?
09:48<ChoHag>Somebody tell me where my multimeter is.
09:48<@peter1138>mysterious cities of gold, that was quality television
09:48<@peter1138>ChoHag, it's not in my toolbox, because that's my one
09:49<ChoHag>Do you live near me?
09:50<andythenorth>mine is under the stairs
09:50<@peter1138>i don't know
09:50<ChoHag>I thought mine might be but it's only other bits.
09:54<@peter1138>bollocks, my mug of tea ran out :S
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>mine is on my desk next to me
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10:38<Eddi|zuHause>"stupidity" ::= "unknowledge" paired with "confidence"
10:41<@Belugas>agree with you on the unsucess part, Eddi|zuHause
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10:41<@peter1138>hmm?
10:41<@Belugas>agree with on as well, peter1138, on mysterious cities :) i have those on DVD< just waiting for my son to be a little older to show him
10:41<@peter1138>:)
10:42<@Belugas>peter1138, Defying gfravity was a tv show a couple of years ago. Sci-Fi. very well done
10:42<@peter1138>oh
10:42<@Belugas>but it was cut out after the first season
10:42<@Belugas>a mess
10:42<@Belugas>it was soooo... goooood!
10:42<@peter1138>never saw it, heh
10:44<@Belugas>i've got it at home. in french. i still ove watching it :)
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11:00<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: "184 might divide nicely by 23, but going from 0 to 23 for 8 times requires more "steps" than going from 0 to 184, after all 24 * 8 > 185." <-- that sentence does not make any sense.
11:01<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: good ;)
11:02<@peter1138>openttd's build system is totally fucked up for using non-gcc compilers...
11:02<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no idea how to explain it any clearer
11:02<SpComb>peter1138's busy trying to compile on jslinux's tcc?
11:04<Rubidium>peter1138: most likely they fail with yapf in any case
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm sure it makes perfect sense in the right context, but i seem to be stuck thinking in a different pattern than you...
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: how does one download the source onto jslinux?
11:09<@peter1138>heh, it's stuck on squirrel atm
11:10<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: imagine the counter as being a integer with 185 values (like a byte has 256 values). As it zero-based it goes from 0 to 184. Now the TS wants that iteration to go from 0 to 23 (so an integer with 24 values).
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: ah, i think you have an obiwan in your thought there
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: or Taifidis does
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11:11<Rubidium>_age_cargo_skip_counter = (_age_cargo_skip_counter == 0) ? 184 : (_age_cargo_skip_counter - 1);
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11:11<Eddi|zuHause>ah, yes. now i get it
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>it counts down from 184 to 0, so 185 values
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>185 = 5*37
11:12<Rubidium>now, lets change the 184 to 255, and assume the counter is a byte. Then cnt == 0 ? 255 : cnt - 1 equals cnt = cnt - 1 (with underflowing)
11:13<Rubidium>as such, 184 is one less than the amount of values in the range
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... had an assert triggered by generating a map... must have screwed with tgp.cpp one too many times...
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>185 makes more sense, because now it's exactly 2.5 days
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11:22<andythenorth>hmm
11:23<andythenorth>maybe it's time to declare my epic YACD game done
11:23<andythenorth>....and start a new one
11:23<andythenorth>1880-2018, I normally get bored before then
11:24*andythenorth ponders
11:24<andythenorth>maybe it's time to start BANDIT
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11:29<@peter1138>/usr/include/string.h:43:14: note: candidate function not viable: cannot convert argument of incomplete type 'struct AirportSpec const (*)[]' to 'void const *restrict'
11:29<@peter1138>extern void *memcpy (void *__restrict __dest,
11:29<@peter1138>that looks delightful :)
11:31<+michi_cc>peter1138: The desync debug assert you've got is indeed broken with YACD, as the memcmp is now comparing the head pointer of a std::map (which is of course not constant when recreating the map). I probably have to rewrite that check.
11:31<@peter1138>:-)
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11:43<Eddi|zuHause>am i oversensitive when i think 3iff's avatar is borderline offensive?
11:43<@planetmaker>thank you Eddi|zuHause for the reply to HvS. I deleted mine before hitting 'submit' ;-)
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>breaking news: "playstation network" hacked.
11:49<@Terkhen>I didn't think that avatar meant anything
11:49<@Terkhen>wow, for the third time already?
11:49<frosch123>again or still?
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>again.
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>"Less than 2 days after Sony started bringing it’s PlayStation Network back online reports are coming in that the besieged gaming giant’s platform has been hacked yet again."
11:51<Sacro>someone show them 'apt-get update' ffs
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>" the exploit allows for hackers to change users passwords using only a PSN account email and date of birth, two pieces of user information that were obtained in the original hack."
11:51<Sacro>WHAT?
11:51<Sacro>does this mean my second 20 char alphanumeric + cases + symbols is worthless?
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much...
11:52<TWerkhoven>they'd still have to hack your email, wouldn't they?
11:53<@peter1138>unless it doesn't actually send an email
11:53<@peter1138>there are dumb systems that use, say, dob for verification...
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>TWerkhoven: i understood it more like "type in your email adress here"
11:55<Sacro>password recovery might only use DOB
11:55<Sacro>which isn't secure... ever
11:55<@Terkhen>... wow
11:56<Sacro>Sigh, I'm going to request a new DoB
11:56<@Terkhen>this is going to be an example in many books
11:56<Sacro>and get my bank to stop using my current one
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11:56<@peter1138>yeah, it's stupid that anybody might consider DoB as security information
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i think in a few years time this might top the pentium bug and the ariane crash in the "don't do this" part of the software engineering lecture :p
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11:59<@Terkhen>we had some computers with the pentium bug in my university
12:00<@Terkhen>it is fun until you remember those computers were supposed to be free of use for any student who needed them to complete stuff
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>(the problem with the pentium bug wasn't actually that there's a bug, but that they initially dismissed it as "ah well, it'll be triggered once in a million years")
12:01<@Terkhen>I don't remember it being very complicated to trigger
12:01<@Terkhen>IIRC 4.0 / 4.0 did the trick
12:01<@Terkhen>or maybe 3.99 / 4.0
12:04<frosch123>[17:57] <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i think in a few years time this might top the pentium bug and the ariane crash in the "don't do this" part of the software engineering lecture :p <- well, but does it also confirm the law of "if the hardware is buggy, create software to work around"?
12:05<+glx>anyway floats are bad ;)
12:06<frosch123>yeah, always use doubles :p
12:08<Rubidium>nah... extended precision! ;)
12:08<andythenorth>especially use them for financial apps
12:10<frosch123>that's totally fine, we just need to enforce 1€ = 128 bicents
12:13<perk11>what's DoB?
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12:14<andythenorth>a newgrf I'm working on
12:14<frosch123>most likely DateOfBirth, but no idea :)
12:14<perk11>:D
12:15<frosch123>andythenorth: DoB or Bridges?
12:15<andythenorth>ho
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13:03<@planetmaker>hm, can I create rough terrain in the SE?
13:05<@peter1138>bah
13:05<@peter1138>need to destroy houses to expand my rail empire^W network
13:06<@peter1138>and a stadium :S
13:07<@peter1138>oh well, sorry residents :p
13:08<andythenorth>just destroy the town
13:08<andythenorth>moving freight is better anyway
13:08<@peter1138>yeah yeha
13:08<@Alberth>planetmaker: load a random picture as height map
13:09<@planetmaker>nah, I don't mean height variations. I mean rough vs. smooth ground tile
13:09<@planetmaker>like 'this tile is rough' and 'this is not'
13:10<@Alberth>you can place rocks, but maybe you mean something else
13:10<@peter1138>rough grass
13:10<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/rough.png
13:11<@planetmaker>there's rocks, normal and rough
13:11<@peter1138>ah, it's called "rough land" in game ;p
13:12<@planetmaker>you see this one tile in the screenshot, Alberth ?
13:13<@Alberth>yep
13:14<@Alberth>although I am somewhat distracted by all those wind mills :)
13:14<@planetmaker>:-D
13:14<andythenorth>those windmills float
13:14<andythenorth>they need a base
13:14<@planetmaker>yes, they do
13:14<@peter1138>a slight shadow...
13:14<@planetmaker>I learnt that after I implemented them. Nasty artists didn't draw that properly
13:15<frosch123>planetmaker: afaik rough land is planted randomly when bulldozing and/or planting trees
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13:15<@planetmaker>yes. That's how I got by that one tile in that screenshot
13:17<@planetmaker>maybe time to pull out gimp again ;-)
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13:33*andythenorth considers various things about FIRS supplies
13:36<andythenorth>seems there would be happy players if more supplies = higher chance of production increase
13:36<andythenorth>which I don't mind
13:38<@planetmaker>as a function of the current production level
13:39<@planetmaker>basically what V suggested makes sense
13:40<andythenorth>so chance of increase scales by amount of supplies delivered
13:40<andythenorth>but also by current production
13:40*andythenorth doesn't fancy writing the nfo for that :)
13:41<@planetmaker>wait for the nml transition ;-)
13:41*andythenorth will
13:41<andythenorth>I have plenty of fish to fry until then
13:41<andythenorth>it will be interesting to see how to solve "supplies + YACD"
13:42*andythenorth hasn't thought of any solutions yet
13:42<@planetmaker>newgrf switch might be the solution
13:43<andythenorth>maybe
13:43<andythenorth>one option is that YACD ignores them
13:43<andythenorth>but then they'll lose the nice routing behaviour wrt transfers etc
13:44<@planetmaker>question is: does it matter if it works like now, isn't that maybe good?
13:44<@planetmaker>after all supplies 'just' increase production
13:44<andythenorth>it doesn't matter particularly
13:44<andythenorth>a yacd game with FIRS is fun
13:45<andythenorth>but the supplies are one of the least fun elements
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r22475 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 6 changes by ABCRic, JayCity
13:46<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/rough.png <-- slightly better, andythenorth ?
13:46<@planetmaker>esp. the middle one
13:47<andythenorth>better
13:47<andythenorth>I would draw some mud and stuff around it
13:47<andythenorth>not much
13:47<andythenorth>just a bit
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14:17*andythenorth ponders
14:18<andythenorth>why can't rivers be walked backwards from their destination?
14:18<andythenorth>I know we discussed it n times :P
14:19<@SmatZ>you mean real-life rivers?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it doesn't change anything, the problem is exactly the same, just the sign changed
14:22<@SmatZ>are you sure? water will go downwards in the direction of highest negative gradient
14:22<andythenorth>what's the problem defined as in that case?
14:23<@SmatZ>but in the other direction, it could come from any direction with non-negative gradient
14:23<@SmatZ>(and yes, there can be exceptions ;)
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14:24<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i can't find the halftile rivers patch that was used to make this screenshot: http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/halfriver.png
14:26<andythenorth>ho
14:26<andythenorth>interesting river-along-a-cliff :)
14:27<andythenorth>bottom of the screenshot
14:27<@SmatZ>hehe :)
14:27*andythenorth wishes he could code
14:28<andythenorth>it seems that you'd start a semi-random walk at any coast tile
14:28<andythenorth>the rule is first walk up if any tile is higher than current tile
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think that will create good rivers
14:28<andythenorth>and if there is >1 possible direction, walk random direction
14:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: navigable, useful rivers? probably not
14:29<andythenorth>annoying rivers that have to be inconveniently bridged? probably
14:29<andythenorth>but it might still work anyway
14:30<@planetmaker>hm, I guess rivers need half-tiles to look nice :-)
14:30<@planetmaker>I didn't know that screenshot
14:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why don't you think it would create a good river? what do I miss?
14:31<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r22476 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate code for reading sprite layout sprites.
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the path should not be too "random"
14:32<@planetmaker>and that indeed is not too easy
14:32<@planetmaker>the tendency to go straight needs to be higher than to bend
14:33<andythenorth>cache the previous move
14:33<andythenorth>give it a higher weighting
14:34<Rubidium>planetmaker: it should have the tendency to search in a somewhat straight line for the nearest lower point
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and it doesn't solve the terraforming issue
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>currently, rivers can only be placed on flat land, or "normal" slopes, of which a generated landscape has very few
14:34<Rubidium>possibly trying to stay as far away from the higher bits in the process
14:36<Rubidium>e.g. http://master.binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r22471/logs/windows-win9x-compile.log
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>so there need to be "halftile" rivers that either have only the flat or only the sloped or both halves of a halftile-slope (or steep slope)
14:36<Rubidium>hmm... wrong channel?
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>the link doesn't match the conversation :p
14:37<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: actually, only the shore would be needed; the rest can be put there like is done for half-tile foundations
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: and once halftile rivers exist on the map, people will want to place rail on the other half, without destroying the river :p
14:40<Rubidium>why not? Instead of drawing the foundation draw the edge... but!
14:40<andythenorth>why half-tile rivers?
14:40<Rubidium>they want to have half tile canals as well and then it starts getting difficult I think
14:40<andythenorth>I don't see the need
14:40<andythenorth>no half-tile canals
14:40<andythenorth>do we have half-tile roads?
14:40<@planetmaker>actually yes
14:41<@planetmaker>:-)
14:42<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-landscape/repository/entry/src/gfx/road_desert_nosep_nogrid.png <-- see the last 4 sprites
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>i need curved roads on steep slopes! [with double-foundation]
14:43<andythenorth>I need a pony :D
14:43*andythenorth thinks *some* rivers are better than perfect rivers
14:43<andythenorth>quite limited rivers would be quite fun
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, the rivers that i have need this, otherwise they crash the game.
14:44<andythenorth>is it a drawing issue, or a spec issue?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what are these weird pixels over sprite 11?
14:45<@planetmaker>I'm quite sure an unintentional left-over of a not complete undo after a colour-sensitive cut and paste
14:46<@planetmaker>but then... they're not used ;-)
14:46<@planetmaker>it's just all from the same layered source file
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14:46<@planetmaker>good spot though, I need to check the layer where it is actually used :-)
14:47<@planetmaker>s/layer/png files/
14:47<@planetmaker>though... might be none. The overlay needs no replacement...
14:47<@planetmaker>and I didn't yet use it for OpenGFX itself
14:50<@peter1138>herping and derping
14:52<@peter1138>ah, half-tile rivers
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14:53<@peter1138>no, i can't find it either
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15:01*peter1138 ponders working on vehicles-in-vehicles
15:01<__ln__>peter1138: something like lorries-in-trains or trains-in-ferries?
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: as long as you get to the point where the orders read: "train X: attach (up to) Y wagons towards station Z"
15:02<@peter1138>pardon?
15:02<__ln__>pardon is french
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: imagine a train with an engine and no wagons, but wagon-placeholders
15:03<@peter1138>why?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>the wagon-placeholders are "vehicles that load vehicles", and the wagons are loaded into these placeholders
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>this simulates shunting
15:03<@peter1138>oh
15:04<@peter1138>i think that's a bad way of simulating shunting
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>why?
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>the wagons will be teleported across the stations, but otherwise? what's so bad about it?
15:05<@Belugas>it's unrealistic
15:05*Eddi|zuHause slaps Belugas
15:08<@Belugas>:D
15:08-!-douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-36-158.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>'A computer error made an official government paper instead of "Stühle rücken" [moving/exchanging chairs] read "Stühle ficken" [fucking chairs]'
15:09<frosch123>hmm i guess when you end up with 10+ parameters to functions, you are doing something wrong :/
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: either combine parameters into structs or split up the function?
15:10<frosch123>well, i split the function up, but there are too many intermediate values to pass between them
15:10<@peter1138>struct?
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>global variables! :p
15:11<@peter1138>merge the functions!
15:11<frosch123>yeah, most likely struct, though not every function needs every parameter
15:11-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
15:11<@planetmaker>one big function and goto ;-)
15:11*Eddi|zuHause is highly suspicious of forum threads with chinese/japanese letters
15:11<frosch123>macros would do :p
15:12<@SmatZ>especially when only latin characters in text are hyperlinks to some shops :)
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>make a function of higher order ;)
15:12<@peter1138>bah, constantly desyncing now :S
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>SmatZ: i didn't click on it ;)
15:12<@SmatZ>:)
15:14<@Belugas>mmh... shunting... that would look different for sure
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>it'd be really useful with destinations to get dynamically mixed trains
15:16<@peter1138>all those people who want it, but have never attempted it ;)
15:17<Amis>Case: I was planting tree in a city and at a square while planting a base of a house popped up but kept clicking planting and as clicked the house went through the construction stages under 0.5 second and finished. Are these two can be related ANYHOW?
15:17<@Belugas>indeed, peter1138 :) Always relying in that dear old friend: someone
15:20<Amis>Okkey, actually the house is still constructing
15:21<Amis>So I guess the sprites somehow slipped a bi
15:21<Amis>t
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>Amis: can you reproduce that on any house that is under construction?
15:27<Amis>I can't predict when and where a house will... you know... pop
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>Amis: i mean just take a house that just popped up, and try to build a tree on it
15:28<Amis>It does not do the same
15:28<Amis>I guess I have to plant trees before it pops up
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15:59<@peter1138>-
16:01<andythenorth>DanMacK: :)
16:01<DanMacK>Heya
16:01<DanMacK>Been awaol for the last little while... lol
16:01<@planetmaker>salut DanMacK
16:03<DanMacK>Howdy all
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16:32<gar>hey all
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16:35<garl>hey anyone know any good ais?
16:35-!-wollollo [~martin@client-86-25-197-141.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
16:35<@planetmaker>yes
16:36<@planetmaker>before I repeat everything: read my last report on AI tests in the forums
16:36<garl>which?
16:36<garl>ps gar is me also....
16:37-!-gar [44ed1f53@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
16:37<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=53358
16:38<garl>which link?
16:42*andythenorth ponders
16:42<andythenorth>short quiz
16:42<garl>o,,o
16:42<andythenorth>what do you want in a truck set
16:42<andythenorth>?
16:43<garl>a working truck
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16:45<Rubidium>andythenorth: totally incorrectly (w.r.t. real world) scaled trucks? ;)
16:45<andythenorth>bigger or smaller
16:45<garl>BIGGER
16:45<frosch123>twice as big as heqs?
16:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: what I want are two things: a) a progression of vehicles with time (i.e. some generations sort-of) and b) nice-looking, diverse cargo support
16:46<@planetmaker>I'll donate you the psd2png makefile for that purpose ;-)
16:47<andythenorth>planetmaker: progression how?
16:47<@planetmaker>I think the default trucks are quite accurately sized
16:47<@planetmaker>progression in speed and slightly also carrying capacity
16:47<@planetmaker>thus maybe also size. somewhat
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16:48<andythenorth>planetmaker: doesn't eGRVTS entirely cover that? :o
16:48<@planetmaker>in many parts, yes
16:50<@planetmaker>your style of vehicles is different, though
16:51<@planetmaker>if you keep the heqs style - which I'd have to assume
16:51<andythenorth>I'm hoping DanMacK will draw them for me :P
16:51<andythenorth>or pikka
16:51<andythenorth>and maybe someone else will code
16:51<andythenorth>I can just project manage :P
16:52<@planetmaker>:-D
16:52<frosch123>ottd still needs a big manager
16:52<@planetmaker>a green leaf frog? ;-)
16:52<frosch123>hmm, or what was the term?
16:53<@planetmaker>"führer"?
16:54<andythenorth>bdfl
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>"a big project manager"
16:54<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_Dictator_For_Life
16:55-!-elmz [~elmz@184.213-167-126.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:55<@planetmaker>that can work.
16:55<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=792478#p792478 <- not sure whether it was that post i remembered
16:55*Belugas starts sending crates of fat food to Rubidium
16:56<@Belugas>we'll get a big manager inno time ^_^
16:56<garl>hey
16:56<garl>how u get ais to do somthing///
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16:56<andythenorth>how big?
16:56<andythenorth>40 foot
16:56<andythenorth>?
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16:56<andythenorth>will he fit on a boat?
16:56<andythenorth>maybe a ferry even?
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yeah, i think that's the one
16:58<Zuu>garl: Have you downloaded any AIs?
16:58<Zuu>Have you let the game run for a 6-12 months?
16:58<Zuu>How large is your map?
16:58<Zuu>Which AIs did you try?
16:59<Zuu>If you did try Idle or IdleMore, it is even a feature that they do nothing :-p
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17:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1243703876#1243703876
17:05<andythenorth>new trucks would be nice for my next yacd game
17:05<andythenorth>smaller ones
17:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: \o/ i totally forgot that guy
17:05<frosch123>(luckily)
17:05<@planetmaker>damn you Eddi|zuHause ! I totally forgot that nick name. And I was happy...
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :p
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's been two years, there should be a new wave of OpenTTD+500 threads :p
17:07<andythenorth>hmm
17:07<andythenorth>how should I organise
17:07*andythenorth is thinking truck models in a range of sizes
17:08<andythenorth>refittable to all cargos
17:08<andythenorth>rather than 'tanker truck', 'box truck', 'hopper truck' etc
17:08<andythenorth>it should make for a shorter buy menu
17:09<andythenorth>how to do articulated trucks?
17:09<supermop>yes
17:10<Zuu>Hmm, model series? Eg. think of you having a truck factory and making modular trucks where the load type is a module that you choose.
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>yep, one truck that can refit to every cargo.
17:10<andythenorth>I just mean 'Bob 16t 3 axle truck'
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's not much different than ships
17:10<andythenorth>'Sue 20t 4 axle truck
17:10<andythenorth>etc
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17:11<Zuu>I was mainly commenting the naming of the generic trucks. Sorry if that was lost. :-)
17:11<Prof_Frink>Big Dave 18 axle behemoth
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>Project Manager Dave :p
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>man... why did you have to remind me!
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>call a model "Thor 82" and everybody who knows the in-joke chuckles :p
17:13<andythenorth>what's annoying about current / default truck sets?
17:13<Prof_Frink>Stick a trailer on the back of this: http://www.bloodhoundssc.com/car/facts_and_figures/cad_drawings.cfm
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17:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I should call one "Little Thor"
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: lack of colours, lack of variety
17:14<andythenorth>that's an in-joke of an in-joke of an in-joke
17:14<andythenorth>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPNjWWQqWCA
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17:14<andythenorth>Prof_Frink: I've seen that thing
17:14<andythenorth>they seem to have built the shell already
17:15<andythenorth>I thought it was a publicity mockup, but seems to be the real thing
17:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: lack of colours?
17:16<andythenorth>you want non-CC?
17:16<Prof_Frink>We want 2CC!
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>basically nobody ever completed a truck set, and LV4 stinks (sorry George ;))
17:16<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: LVv4 is pointless, gameplay-wise.
17:17<andythenorth>why?
17:17*andythenorth only uses eGRVTS
17:17<Prof_Frink>Most of the "newer" trucks are slower and carry less than the older ones.
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have faith that GermanRV gets finished anytime soon either
17:18<@planetmaker>yeah. :S
17:18<@planetmaker>and he won't release it
17:19<@planetmaker>in a usuable manner
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>if by "release" you mean "put on bananas"?!
17:21<@planetmaker>ach... Leanden bores me
17:21<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that'd make it widely available and usuable, yes
17:21<@planetmaker>and imho 'official'
17:21<andythenorth>oh
17:21<andythenorth>I want to flame him
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well, i surely tried...
17:21<@planetmaker>I know...
17:22*andythenorth avoids flaming
17:22<andythenorth>people, generally, can be fricking stupid
17:22<andythenorth>this I has observed in my short life
17:23*andythenorth has observed andythenorth being stupid
17:23<@planetmaker>:-)
17:24<andythenorth>many parameters double the amount of QA required
17:24<andythenorth>if 2 parameters produce 4 configurations, that's 4 times the QA
17:24<andythenorth>if 3 parameters produce 9 configurations...and so on :P
17:25<andythenorth>and then your code dies because it's buggy, and the complexity of any change in mind boggling
17:25<andythenorth>so no it's not more efficient
17:25<andythenorth>an add-on is *way* more efficient
17:25<andythenorth>because some other bugger has to QA that, not me
17:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth: c&p this to the thread ;-)
17:26<andythenorth>you do it :P
17:26<@planetmaker>it's not a flame. It's a well-deserved lecture then ;-)
17:26*andythenorth is a bad teacher
17:26<andythenorth>I've tried being a teacher, I'm not well suited
17:27<@peter1138>bah, RoadStops are very road specific
17:27<andythenorth>how rude
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>NewGRF Ports!
17:27<andythenorth>it would be more surprising if RoadStops were very rail specific
17:27<@planetmaker>there you go, andythenorth ;-)
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17:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: colours for trucks?
17:31<andythenorth>to return to the topic
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>2cc would be a good start
17:32<frosch123>isn't randomly coloured stuff more fun?
17:32<andythenorth>any particular scheme?
17:32<andythenorth>egrvts is 2cc
17:32<supermop>i like 2cc
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>random colour could be cool, too
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17:32<andythenorth>I'm not likely to do random colour
17:32<leanden>howdy
17:32<leanden>thought id come to IRC to save posting
17:32<andythenorth>all other sets I do are 2cc
17:33<supermop>i usually play as the only company,
17:33<supermop>so it doesnt make sense that equipment of any other color would end up in my world
17:33<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's possible to combine 2cc and random
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17:34<@planetmaker>like, opengfx+trains uses 2cc with some containers being random, but most 2cc
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i haven't really used eGRVTS yet, other than the horsies ;)
17:34<leanden>andy
17:34<leanden>if i wanted to discuss a FIRS addon with you
17:34<leanden>would it be best here or in a seperate channel?
17:34*Eddi|zuHause tries to hold back :p
17:35<andythenorth>here
17:35<andythenorth>I'm going to sleep in a minute though
17:35<andythenorth>you can discuss it with others
17:35<andythenorth>they'll help you ;)
17:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: horse-back riders are missing ;-) for express cargo in the years 0 ... 1400 era or so ;-)
17:36<leanden>ill discuss it tomorrow then ;)
17:36<leanden>but im going to do it
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>1 piece of engineering supplies :p
17:36<leanden>:)
17:36<leanden>night all
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17:36<@planetmaker>lol
17:37<andythenorth>he'll learn
17:37*andythenorth bed time
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17:37<Eddi|zuHause>i gave up that hope years ago.
17:37<@planetmaker>:-)
17:37<@planetmaker>bros - must one say more?
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have refrained from actually looking at that
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>what i have seen from Leanden otherwise is bad enough
17:38<frosch123>night
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19:14<@Terkhen>good night
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19:54<leanden>Anyone in here know anything about GRFmaker?
19:54<SpComb>the very old tool from TTDPatch times?
19:59<leanden>ye
19:59<leanden>well im trying to start learning to code
20:00<leanden>and that seemed the best place to start :P
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>not everything that is klickibunti is actually easy to learn
20:01<Eddi|zuHause>i suggest to use nml instead
20:01<leanden>never said itd be easy
20:01<leanden>but the only way to get the stuff implemented is to do it myself
20:01<leanden>which means i need to learn :)
20:03<leanden>im downloading the NML binary now
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20:07<Wolf01>'night
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20:08<leanden>i got disconnected >.>
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---Logclosed Thu May 19 00:00:55 2011